Upstairs and weve got to keep it that way. Lights burning, children asleep, and peace and security everywhere. You are watching American History tv, all weekend, every weekend, on cspan3. To join the conversation, like us on facebook. We are live in charleston, west virginia, for the next stop on the 50 capitals tour. The governor and Lieutenant Governor will be our guests on the bus during washington journal. And join darryl photographed a dozen american president s beginning with president eisenhower. Next in interview with him about his career working for United Press International and u. S. News and world reports. He photographed president kennedy minutes before his assassination, and the signing of the camp david accords. The Briscoe Center for American History at the university of texas at austin recorded this 40 minute interview and archived his photos along with others and nationally recognized photographers. We will talk to a little bit about some of the photos from your collection on display. The first one that we have chronologically, is the photo taken on november 22. Can you tell me a little bit about that photo at the kennedy motorcade . Mr. Heikes i was given a ride right next camera, it is something i normally do not use. I got out in the street. The dallas cops were pretty leniant, they always were with the dallas press. We could go where we wanted to. I position myself at the corner of main and harwood because the limo would have to turn. It gives you a different perspective and it is just driving straight down that street. It was just making the turn off of harwood on to maine. Across the street from harwood and maine is dallas city hall. Which i would return to later that night, but day, rather than that night. I was set up and there was a a woman who had a caricature all thehe street with way with jfk a head caricature. I went over and talk to her and told her that when the motorcade came by to be sure to have it straight up and hide. I arranged myself so that when they got there and they were waving, i waited until that caricature fit in to what it was doing and i made the frame. I only made two frames. It was too far and afterwards, we were passed it. Once the picture was made, i was about six blocks from the Dallas Times Herald, which is where i was working for upi. I started running in the street to get there so that we could get the picture out. As it turned out, i had gone about maybe a half a block and this motorcycle copart run, over the foot of a pedestrian, which turn the motorcycle over. So i had to wait until he got picked up and picked up the motorcycle. He left and then i could keep going because the streets were too full of people to try to run on the sidewalks. I ran up to the Dallas Times Herald and i got to the entry and i push the elevator and it did not come in about two minutes. I use the stairs and i ran upstairs and went into the newsroom. The newsroom had all of the people that were at their desk in tears, they were crying, heads down. Iran straight into the photo lab where i gave it my film and found out what had happened. I then went into my locker, got my other gear that i needed the whole idea was the picture of him in the motorcade was going to be used clear across the whole front page of the Dallas Times Herald. I gave my film to willie allen who is a photographer for upi. I headed towards the book depository, which was only two and a half blocks away, three blocks at the most. I ran over there and when i got to the book depository comma just across that depository, there were cops with Guns Everywhere pointing up at the window, putting up at the building. There were cops and newspeople standing in front of the building. I was hunkered down looking, finally i stood up, grabbed my gear and said he will not shoot me, i will shoot the cops and ran across the street. I was there with the News Conference that cops are china have. Reporters were cops were trying to have, reporters were talking. It was from a man named temple, and he lived in a suburb of dallas. He called me to say that a police man was shot. I got a hold of a times Herald Reporter who was there and i said, lets go. Oak cliff was a baptist part of dallas. It was basically a crime free area, no alcohol, a lot of things were going on. I know how many cops had been killed down there. We got in his car, which was parked in the basement of the Dallas County courthouse directly across the street from the book depository. Standby his body was gone. They were going to the car and there were neighbors and people looking all over the place. I made, i dont how many pictures, but i was the only photographer there. It is kind of hard to get the on a job if you are the only person there, but nobody was there. There was one television crew. The Dallas Police photographers were there. I was shooting, than all of a sudden the radio began and they came on that they had the shooter trapped in the texas theatre, which is only two or three blocks away. We grabbed a car and headed for the texas theater. When we got there, the car was pulling out and one of the cops that the reporter knew said, we just got a guy who killed a cop and shot the president. They were taking him to city hall. We dropped in the we jumped in the car and went straight to city hall. I got in the hall outside of will fritzs office in homicide, which is where i stayed until alls walled was brought in oswald was brought in. He was pointing at this mouth sore under his eye and his comment was, do you see what they did to me . And then he went into the homicide office, which is where he stayed. The gun Police Walked in carrying the gun overhead to get in. There were probably about 100 photographers and reporters in a hallway by the time. About an hour later, marina, the baby and oswald overdrive to go arrived also to go in the homicide office. We were then just waiting. The times herald and upi decided i should stay there to see what happened. Later that night, at the urging of the networks, they took us down for a lineup. The thing that was very interesting about that time, that is when walter kong conch right Walter Conkrite came on the air to announce kennedy was dead. The first picture they showed i got it back to the office, got it process quickly and we had a good chance to beat whatever the ap was doing. That picture was used. I stayed in the cop shop. There was a press room down the hall and they told us they would have a lineup in the basement. They took us all downstairs and they brought all swelled oswald. The reporter asked him a question about shooting the president and he said, that is ridiculous. He was basically arrogant, but just saying those kind of things. Then they left, i went back upstairs and back into the Little Press Room, which was a two seat, for chair Little Press Room outside of will fritz is office. Fritzs office. They were waking them up at 2 00 in the morning and questioning them, which they did not do. I was relieved the following morning and went back to the paper, then i went home. The thing about it was, i was supposed to be going to National Guard duty. I was planning on going and i decided, i really did not want to do that, my wife did not know where i was, she was up in the window looking at the kennedys coming by at a Department Store when they had been on main street driving by. She did not know where i was. When the reports came out they do not know who was shot, how many people were shot, what was going on. So i went home, sitting there, and there an, uh, i sat on my bed and watch jack ruby shoot lee harvey oswald. Then, later on, i started going to Dallas County jail just about every day. As soon as the trial started i was there for probably 80 of the trial i spent covering the ruby trial, which was basically him being walked in and walked out from the courtroom. We put remote cameras on the wall so you could see him when he actually walked by. I covered most of the trial, of course, when the verdict was going to be announced, they only took a pool photographer in. One of the things that they had used in the trial was this picture of oswald that i had of him with his handcuffs. They printed it eight feet high. I dont know if there had to do with it, but they used it in the defense for jack ruby. So shell hirschhorn was the pool photographer for the verdict. I had also photographed, during the course of the ruby trial, i photographed sam ruby, his brother, his sister talking to tommy. If i can jump in, it is interesting we often say that these news photos that we collect in our archive site evidence. There is a case of wanting your photos literally being evidence. Did you have a sense as the motorcade photo appeared on tv of how historic that image would be . Mr. Heikes lot until i got to the lobby and found out kennedy was shot. Immediately, mrs. Conley had told the president just before he got shot, see how much dallas loves you. They were always scared to go to dallas anyways. General walker had a lot of strong support, ultraconservative support in dallas and a lot of people thought he could have been involved in the shooting of the president. Also one of the things that happen was somebody shot it will in the window at general walkers home on turner creek, which turned out to be lee harvey oswald. You never know exactly what you are doing until you get to the point where, if the picture is there, you make it. At that was pretty interesting that might that that picture of mine was the first picture that most people had saw of the kennedys in dallas. It was just a situation that they were just driving by and i was in the right place at the right time. I did not get a chance to do anything like that. I photograph something hard to believe and i started my photography and president s of the United States and i was 13yearold and a sophomore in high school when general eisenhower, who had been elect did and had been inaugurated in october of 1953, he landed at shulman air force base, which may have been by that time. We knew he was coming and they built this huge banner that said welcome ike. He came in this oldsmobile convertible, bareheaded, he was waving to the people that came by. I was using the school camera. I was working for the Celina High School yearbook for two weeks. I had to learn basically how to use the camera and what to do with it. It was a super d with a hood on it. Ed in thee you look hood and it was a reflex camera that would get you through the lens. You did not have a lot of opportunities because you had to pull dark sites to get the film. It also had two shutters that had a focal point shutters. You had to make sure the shutters were open when he made the picture. I got one picture of him waving. It is the only picture that i made. Of course it was used later on in the High School Paper and the year but, but it was used in a lot of places later on. I did not realize when i photographed eisenhower in 1953 that i would than the rest of the president s through barack obama and harry truman. At what point did you know that that is what you wanted to do . Mr. Heikes right after i did the eisenhower picture, it worked for me and i might as well stay with it and see what i can do. It became a little bit interesting about how i finally got there. I went to kansas state, i had a degree in technical journalism. Kansas state has produced a great number of very good photographers. Kansas state does not offer a course of any kind in photography. The way you learned to be photographer at kansas state was you worked for the newspaper or you worked for the yearbook. The way you learn to make pictures is to make pictures. That is what i did. I was at the Kansas City Star and times, hutchinson journal, i was screening i would shoot people on campus and then transmit them to upi. I would do that as late as possible. The first thing i would do is make all these prints and put them on buses. I would send them all to the newspapers into the ap in kansas city. After i know that they were on the bus and were on their way, i would then transmit the picture at upi. I was making all kinds of prince in doing this stuff. At the time we got paid it was five dollars a picture. It was not like you were getting rich at five dollars a picture. That is what we got paid in those days. It was fine, i really loved it, i love shooting football games, the basketball games, and shooting features around kansas state in order to send pictures away. That is what it was about. I went from dallas to madison madison, wisconsin because felix mcknight, who was a publisher of the alice times herald had decided that since i worked for upi, contracted to the times herald if i have made a picture of jack ruby shooting lee harvey alls well, or that he works for upi and made it, they cannot call it Dallas Times Herald full photo. They had a meeting with the upi people. They went we went out to upi and they fired us all. Two days before that, the chief photographer at the Dallas Times Herald called me into his office and says, if you are not working for upi, would you work for me . Of course i had no idea at all why i would not be working for upi. And i said, sure john, i would be glad to. So it turns out, i got fired by upi, went back and told john i was fired and he said i had a job. The next morning i was working for the Dallas Times Herald, which i did for about eight months until upi said we have an opening in madison, wisconsin. That is when i went to madison. That was about 1954 . Mr. Heikes yes i went there in 1964. You mentioned photography of a couple of the president s. Let me ask you, we have another one of your photos in the exhibit of president jimmy carter. It was at camp david. What was that experience light . Like . Mr. Heikes on the day that i happen, my wifes birthday is the 12th of september. Im pretty sure this was the 17th of september. The thing was, john was a upi photo editor and photographer who worked the weekends. This was a saturday or a sunday. He called and said, they are coming down from the mountain and theyre going to have a press conference in the east room, we can only have one photographer in the east room so go. So i grabbed my gear and my stuff and headed to the white house. Finally they took us into the east room. When we got there, it here we there, one person for one person for organization, Time Magazine had two, ap had to, Newsweek Magazine had two. The thing about it, the israelis, the egyptians, they all had two or three. I was literally the loan person for upi. When i was standing there looking at what was going to happen i decided that i did not want to stand straight in the middle because when they signed the accords, and when they got together, they would be way too far apart. So i did what i usually did and i moved away far down to the end of the press riser so i can look back. When they signed it, they were kind of compressed a little bit. Then when the embrace came and jimmy smiling that was standing in front of the israeli flag and they were standing in front of the egyptian flag and carter was right beside it. Some of the people later on who had been in the middle had threeway handshakes in the middle, which got some play, but my picture got the most. It won a news photographer contest and picture of the year contest for general news. A lot of people made it, but i was the only one that had the angle that put it together and made it work, which is always what i try to do. I try to figure out as you do it, all these photographers to worked at the white house in washington will all tell you, the biggest thing was figuring out where you have to be at the right time with the right lens in your hand to do it you have to do, which is what we all did. One of the things that strikes me about this story is, i am sure some of the folks who were in that room, we have the collections here too. How competitive was your relationship with other journalists . Mr. Heikes competition is what it is all about. We have people here that i competed with that did not work for the services i did at the time, but i worked for upi. The ap photographers were very competitive. Some were for magazines and newspapers. My whole goal was to get my picture on the front page of the washington post, it did not matter if they had 100 . I wanted to get my picture of all of these things. That was exactly what it was all about. You were there to try to outshoot everybody there. If you happen to be on a job and they outshot you in the picture was in the picture of next day and you werent, you would congratulate them and say you did brilliant, you did a nice job yesterday and it was a really nice picture. And then the under your breath you would say you better bring your lunch because it will be a long day today, which is what it was all about. Let step forward a little bit and talk about you putting your archive here at the Briscoe Center. How did that come to be . Mr. Heikes it came to be because they donated their archives. When stanley chaddock was a photographer for upi who worked later on for look magazine and made all of the behindthescenes kennedy pictures and john john under the desk, and all of these things. Stanley had been with upi for quite a while then he went to look magazine. While he was at work magazine he worked with kitty kelly who had written a lot of books and what have you. They were also a couple. I dont know what kind of a couple, but they were a couple. The thing about it is, i was at the u. S. News and report, which is who i was working for at the time and kitty kelly came in and met with lenny jeanne hopkins, who was the secretary of the publisher of u. S. News and report. She asked me to come up and kitty kelley said, what should i do with her . We have all of the family images, what should i do with them . I said you ought to do a book and then donate them to somebody that can archive them, handle them for you that is not some photo agency out there trying to sell everything. That is what this is about, donate something here or they can archive it to the point where it will be preserved. If you have a flood, if you have a tornado, the odds are that the images will be fine here. I was at kansas state for hundredth anniversary for the school there and i wanted to know why i would not donated to them and it was because they did not have the archival facilities do it. I said, he did not have the facilities and they got gordon parks archive from its family. He had great movies and show pictures and then they had a flood and the pipes burst. A lot of film, movies and images were ruined in the flood because they have those real old, Old Buildings that are there that will that were built 150 years ago. Their infrastructure does not work too well and it was one of those things that i personally cannot see giving it to kstate because i did not know what they would really do with it. I knew what they would do with it here. I told my wife, who is very active in what i am trying to do and getting this done, i said, i do not want to die and leave the stuff for you here in 60 boxes and you will have the foggiest idea of what to do with it. One of the other things that i think is important is that we do have all of these contemporaries, all of your colleagues. What is the value of having all of these materials in one place . Mr. Heikes that is exactly what it is all about. Somebody wants it and they can compare it, they can look at it and they could see what people can user what they want to use. It is strictly what the center has gotten. They have gotten so many images and they can decide which ones they want and which ones they do not. I think they do a good job of archiving this stuff. Allison hadnt spent five hours going to boxes in my house in five days, it had been crazy and i kept sending her more and more stuff. I did not want to die and my wife and kids were not have a foggy idea of what to do with it. That is something that has to be done. That is something that allows photographers in our business, now they dont know what they will do with the stuff. I wish just talking to did swansons wife and i have no germane for 30 years or more and she says the same thing, we have all these boxes and we have to pick what we are going to do in order to get them how. The archive is here also, but the point was, it had to be done, but you cannot just leave it for your kids. They really have no idea. The kind of know what you did with your life, but they dont know what to do with the stuff that they have. Your career is an amazing example of the presidency. You have for bethel of these historic events. You were there to capture the evidence. Talk a little bit about why photos are such important historic evidence . Mr. Heikes because they capture history. It is just like photo photography, or here we have talked about. We always say we are a part of history because you were there when all these events happen. That is really what it is. You are capturing history so that other people can have a chance to see history also. That is the reason that that is important because you have to give people the opportunity to see what happened. It is really funny because people do not realize that a lot of pictures are made just because we happen to be in the right place at the right time. It is very good to see the reaction. I have pictures that with all my firstplace photos in the white house with weber was president at the time, victims looking at my pictures at the time that were prizewinners. The first year i won a prize, i won a first prize in the 1969 white house president ial contest. I won it for a sports picture of rowers in the olympics at mexico city on a real foggy day. I called the foggy canoe and birds too. At the same time i had made the day before the worlds record leap of bob niemann in the long term. I had him kissing the ground and i had all the series of pictures. Pictured in anything but the white house contest. The foggy canoe and birds to won the white house news cant contest in the sports competition. Nixon and i were there and he was looking at it and he said, when with where was dismayed and i said it was made in mexico. He said, you know, there is no such thing as bad mexican food, just better mexican food. [laughter] mr. Heikes the nixon got along with the photographers. Everybody who covered nixon will say the same thing. He did not have any problem with photographers because he did not think the photographers could hurt. He hated the correspondence and the columnists, but so did most of them. Because they do not like what was happening, but we had a pretty great rapport with most president s. Jimmy carter, who i made all kinds of photographs of had wonderful pictures of the middle east southern diplomacy and the things that he did. He did not like photographers. He was afraid somebody would make a picture of him sticking his finger up his nose, or something that would be very unflattering, which if photographers had landed. People are you wishes sold self conscience and he did not want to do anything that would make him look bad. Later on he became a good subject after being president. I think that is a situation that most president s are very relaxed around us here at us. George h w bush was extremely relaxed. He had a really Good Relationship with david. Standby a really Good Relationship with david kennerly. We used to always joke and say, jerry, we need to to stand on your head, what are you doing . He would just not have a problem of doing anything that we needed. He would get it done. That is the thing about dealing with the president , you have to expect that you can get what you need out of them. If somebody does not like it, or read about it reagan told mike he said, still photographers always scare me because in a blink of an eye, there it is in the pictures are there forever, where as the videos last and they are there, a goes by and nobody pays attention. He was always worried that any individual incident that might happen with the bed. He did not look back, i made very good pictures of reagan. He was probably comfortable with his own image. What would you say was if you could pick one image that you would like to be remembered for, and you think was your most significant, what do you think that would be . Mr. Heikes youre talking about events you are covering. The kennedys and the johnsons were great because it was something it happened and it was over. The camp david signing was something and it was there, that was over also. But also, i do not remember anything i was involved, just like i did the body can be funeral, i was there when jfk got shot. I did Martin Luther kings funeral. I covered literally all of the funerals and the assassinations one way or another that had happened in my career. The only thing that the kennedys and the carters was photographing oswald, and i was not in a place where he was shot by jack ruby. I was on the hill in the Senate Dining room shooting mr. Thurmonds daughters 12th birthday party. Then i went straight to the gw hospital and i made all kinds of images of nancy going in and out of the hospital, which were used a lot. The thing about it was i was not exactly there when the shooting happened. We have photographers here that have their reflection in that center that were there. You just sort of never know, it is just like the fact i was telling the guys downstairs when they were talking to me about the picture that bob jackson made of jack ruby shooting lee harvey oswald. The Dallas Morning News photographer had photographed the same scene, he was above Frank Johnson who was there. Bob jackson was also standing next to him in a position where he shot the ruby firedt before the gun. When the Dallas Morning News came out, there was jack beers picture of him holding the gun and oswald there. The times herald came out and the picture of jackson and the reaction when oswald was actually shot. Jack beers became a broken man because of that. He was broken man after that. He died not too far after that and his family totally hates jackson and his family. It is ridiculous. He missed it, he made a picture that was not as good as the other guys, but he was there and he made something. You sort of say, well, we had a lot of photographers who were famous that if i was at have done this and that. Yes, if you are not there, you are not there to make it. You cannot say, i would have done this because that is not going to ever happen. It was pretty funny. Don rickles for upi was there when reagan was shot. And he made the pictures that won the pulitzers and won all kinds of things. Don raqqa ripca was disheartened because it he had good pictures but not with hartman had. Two or three days later. He called upi headquarters in new york and talk to the executive editor and said, can you ship me the reagan film back, i want to look at it. Larry was from brooklyn and he is italian and he has his own attitude and he says a wide, you want to shoot it again . It is one of those things were if it did not happen and it is not there, then it did not happen and it is not there. Thats what it is all about, thats way somebody did not have it. That is kind of what we do along those lines. Be going, you try to make the best picture uganda will you are doing, and you always sure to be any place. We did when we were working, especially the white house, you have the optimum many in your hand and it maximum amount of film whenever something happens. Because somebody coming in a split second, it could be there and you got it in the person standing next to does or does not have it. I think that will wrap things up for us today. Is there anything else you want to share . Mr. Heikes no. It is fun to just have a place and it feels good to have your film and a place where you know it is appreciated and can be taking care of. That is all that i ever wanted when i donated the all of my other colleagues in so many of them now have done the same thing. It is just wordofmouth and i have talked to many people who have told initiatives of where ive had to go, and that is exactly what it was. A lot of people had to make a decision of where things were going to be. We have photographer friends who have their stuff other places where one who is teaching at ku and all of his archives at the university of kansas depends on the kind of tie and what have you. My tent my tie to kansas state is wonderful. Being in the News Business and about journalism, they just do not have many facilities