Transcripts For CSPAN3 First Lady Lucy Hayes 20240622

To learn about its history. Learn more about omaha and other stops on our to her at cspan. Org. You are watching American History tv, all weekend, every weekend, on cspan3. American history tv you cheering cspans original series first ladies influence and image. Cspan produced the series in cooperation with the White House Historical association. Through conversations with experts, video tours of historic sites, and questions from cspan audience we help tell the story of americas 45 first ladies. Next, lucy hayes, on first ladies influence an image. This is about an hour and a half. It is so unfair to her. Its such a dismissive, almost condescending title, because it suggests that shes sort of his bluestocking whose sole function in life was to not serve alcohol. Lucy hayes is so much more, as is her husband, frankly. And, remember, everything she accomplished in the white house, we should consider, came in spite of the fact that her husbands legitimacy to be president was questioned right until the day he left office. She was a charming person very delightful. She was innovative with the arts. Ms. Weininger one of our more controversial collections is the white house china. Journalists of the day wrote scathing articles. One said that the art was absurd. Whos going to want to be eating this lovely meal and see a duck at the bottom of their plate . She took an active interest in Public Affairs from an early age. She had a College Degree, and she had taught. Ms. Weininger two causes that were very important to her were veterans and soldiers and also orphans, children who had been made orphans as a result of the civil war. She combined all of these roles. Thats the interesting thing. She manages to be a very devout mother. She doesnt neglect her children. But she also embraces the life of her times. Ms. Swain lucy hayes wrote, womens minds are as strong as mans, equal in all things and superior in some. Born in 1831 in chillicothe, ohio, she was the first first lady to earn a College Degree and her life tells us much about the times in which she lived experiencing the civil war reconstruction, and the gilded age, and into a period where Technological Innovations and significant social forces usher in an era of enormous change in the United States. Good evening and welcome to cspans continuing series on the biographies of americas first ladies. Tonight youll learn about lucy webb hayes, the wife of the 19th president , rutherford b. Hayes. And here to start us off is allida black, who is a first ladies historian and she is the author of the first ladies of the United States of america a collection of biographies published by the White House Historical association. Allida black, welcome. And 1876, this country is joyously celebrating its 100th centennial of the declaration of independence, and its an election year. And the election is greatly contested with no clear victor. Tell us about the atmosphere with which the hayeses arrive at the white house. What was it like . Ms. Black well, susan, its pretty schizophrenic, i mean, to tell you the truth. Weve just come out of the you know, the centennial celebration. And theyre coming to the white house, but they dont even know if theyre actually going to move into the white house, because the election is not yet decided. Whats happened is, is that samuel b. Tilden and rutherford b. Hayes were in at that point one of the closest elections in the United States. And tilden wins the popular vote, but there are three states where the vote is so tight that the parties are tackling each other, you know, each each the republicans are saying we won, the democrats said, no, we won. So hayes goes to bed and thinks hes lost. And he gets up the next morning and he finds out that the republicans are challenging the vote in three states, and if they actually win those three states, he gets the number of electoral votes he needs to become president. Well, you know, they go through all these negotiations back and forth. Theres congress is involved. Theyre trying to cut all these back deals. But literally its not decided until he arrives in washington when the deals are finally set. So when theyre you can only imagine sort of you know, the schizophrenia, the joy, the fear, the disappointment everything that you feel as youre on this train coming to washington. Ms. Swain and so worried were the hayeses about the possibility of a democratic coup, the inaugural day was a sunday, and so there was a private swearingin at the white house, correct . Ms. Black absolutely. And then he gave his inaugural address on monday the next day absolutely. But the country itself is still very unsettled. I mean, the civil war even though its been over for 12 years is very much in peoples minds, because its such an intensely personal war. I mean, everybodys been affected by it. And now youre trying to figure out, how are you going to end reconstruction . For hayes, its how do you end reconstruction and try to stay true to your principles . For the democrats, its, you know, how can we hold his feet to the fire to get rid of the troops that are down there and give us back our land and our customs . And plus, youve got all of this technological revolution. Its, you know, the telephone just gets premiered in philadelphia. You have the typewriter. You know, youve got all of these new kinds of engines that are being done. You have labor unrest. You have Great Railroad strikes. You have a recession. Its got everything. Its really sort of the first major depression that we have. So the countrys trying to figure out whats going on just as much as the hayeses are trying to figure out whats going on. Ms. Swain so rutherford b. Hayes and lucy hayes come to the white house with a great deal of government experience at this point. He had been threeterm governor of ohio whod served in congress, very popular governor of ohio. What do they do to establish their credibility when they get to washington . Ms. Black well, they just their personalities take over, and they began to try to, you know, acknowledge the fact that the election is really controversial. They know that hes being called your fraudulency. He knows that, you know, hes being called rutherford fraud hayes. And so what he does with his inaugural address is really set the tone for this. He makes overtures to the democrats. He opens the white house up. They begin to really try to engage in a public conversation and tackle the issues that sort of tarnished the Republican Party, if you will. I mean, the corruption of the Grant Administration, when he says hes going to do Civil Service reform, you know, when he really pledges to pull the remaining troops out of the south, assuming that the governors that the governments in new orleans and columbia will honor their commitment to black rights. So hes trying to really extend an olive branch to people to say, im addressing your concerns, i hear you, and im only going to serve one term, so lets figure out how we can make the most of this together. Ms. Swain and how did lucy hayes assist him in this effort . Ms. Black well, she was very shrewd with him all the way along. I mean, she understood how politics worked. She understood how to entertain. She understood how to facilitate conversations between people that were difficult. She understood how to really bring people at the table in a way that would advance her husbands career. She was charming. You know, everybody liked her, you know, despite the, you know, the noalcohol edict in the white house. So she was able to grease the skids for him in a way that made him seem approachable and ethical and blunt. Ms. Swain we have mentioned that she was the first first lady to have a College Degree, but this is a time of enormous change for women. At the philadelphia bicentennial fair, the worlds fair, all kinds of new devices laborsaving devices were being introduced for the home, the hoover vacuum cleaner ms. Black absolutely. Ms. Swain early washing machines, and women were beginning to take advantage of this by beginning to move into the workforce. So how is lucy hayes is she seen a symbol for this kind of woman and her approach to the job . Ms. Black well, i really dont think so, because i think its very easy to overstate the importance of the new laborsaving devices and how many women went into the workforce. I mean, the women who are in the workforce already have to work. And the women who really entered the workforce by their own volition and by their own interests really are the generation after her. So when she comes in the white house, only 5 of women who work are working in what we would consider today whitecollar jobs, like sales and stenographers and secretaries and, you know, professors and educators. I mean, its still very, very close. Shes on the cusp of that. I mean, what shes really to me, the thing thats really interesting about her is how shes sort of stuck in the middle. And in a way, that doesnt make her stuck. I mean, i know that sounds weird, but, you know, the Suffrage Movement is totally divided along the lines of race and whether women can vote or not. And lucy hayes is, you know, the first collegeeducated first lady. Shes nursed and stood with surgeons during the civil war. Shes seen more wounds, more battles, more scars, more amputees, more suffering than probably any first lady, other than Mary Todd Lincoln. But yet, you know, shes not an avantgarde reformer. She is trying to find her own voice, and so its hard to put her in a pigeonhole. Ms. Swain Gary Robinson on twitter asks, how did washington look upon lucy, especially after julia grants presence . Ms. Black well, thats tricky. I mean, because, you know, when she washington looks on her as you know, askance with temperance issues. But, you know, they also look at her as lovely and vivacious and happy and congenial, and then she does, shall we say eccentric, but gorgeous china, and the press goes, you know insane over it, writing, you know, as your credits opened about how difficult it is to eat food and maybe even see a quail in the middle of your plate. Ms. Swain so you mentioned the press. Are we at a point in history where the press is independently covering the first ladies and they become an object of National Interest . Ms. Black yes, the press really is taken with her. I mean, they call her they use the title first lady more for her, you know, than they have for anybody, even though it was referenced to Mary Todd Lincoln. But they really you know, they like her. They cover her. They see her as vivacious. They see her as somebody whos different. Theyre fascinated that she went to college. I mean, so they really do follow her in her own right. Ms. Swain throughout our program tonight, were going to be taking you to the hayes home in fremont, ohio. Its called spiegel grove. You see a picture of it on your screen right now. This is the home where Lucy Rutherford and their family, which was a large family, lived before the white house years and this president ial home library and museum there all help to inform visitors as to what the first lady and the first family were all about. Our first segment takes us inside the home to learn about lucy hayes as a political partner to rutherford b. Hayes and about some of the causes that were important to her throughout her adult life. Lets watch. Ms. Weininger this is a painting that shows lucy tending to a wounded soldier during the civil war. Two causes that were very important to her were veterans and soldiers, and also orphans children who had been made orphans as a result of the civil war. This painting was created to hang in an orphanage here in ohio of which she was very supportive. So it kind of reflects those two issues that were important to her. When People Associated with those causes would come here to spiegel grove and visit, they would sit here in this formal parlor. Spiegel grove was host to a number of reunions of civil war veterans. The 23rd ovi was the unit that rutherford served in. Future president mckinley was a member of the 23rd ovi, so he and his family were frequent guests here. And veterans groups were always welcome here at spiegel grove. And when they would gather here on the grounds, when they would come into sit and talk, they would sit in this formal parlor. Lucy was such a wonderful hostess. She wanted people to feel very very welcome here, and so this is where they would sit this is where they would discuss the issues of the day. The hayeses would have hosted a number of political figures here for dinner, including future president s taft and mckinley also William Tecumseh sherman was a guest for dinner, as well as a number of other local and National Political figures. So as a political partner with her husband, entertaining these political figures and serving in that role of hostess at these dinners would have been incredibly important. Ms. Swain and joining us on our set now another guest, Tom Culbertson. Mr. Culbertson is director emeritus of the rutherford b. Hayes president ial center, where spiegel grove is also open to the public, spent 24 years of his professional life helping america preserve the history of the hayes presidency. We heard from allida black about the great political partnership, but your comments about the skills that she brought to this job as she entered the white house . Mr. Cullbertson well, she was a partner to rutherford. She was a sounding board for him. She was a gracious hostess, as allida said. She was able to engage people oneonone and to make anybody that she talked with think that they were the only person in the room and the only person that she really wanted to talk with. Ms. Swain now, the contested election didnt end after they were sworn in, and there was a congressional inquiry. We have one of the quotes one of many quotes from her that we want to show tonight, and heres one where she said, sometimes i feel a little worried this press and annoyance going, but i keep myself outwardly very calm, but inwardly there is a burning venom and wrath all under a smiling or pleasant exterior. What do we learn about her from that quote . Mr. Cullbertson well, we learn that shes very defensive of her husband and his image and that she does have a little bit of anger in her. But ms. Swain it sounds like a good politician in her own right . Mr. Cullbertson yes, she was a very good politician. Ms. Swain able to mask the inner wrath for the public presentation. Mr. Cullbertson yes, yes, right, yes. Ms. Black one of my favorite things about that is that shows her passion and her ability sort of to hold it in is, at the end of the civil war, she was just furious that everybody started talking about reconciliation and forgiveness. You know, and she was saying mercy is one thing, but we have to have justice and mercy, which just shows her. Ms. Swain i would like to invite you, as we do each week to be a participant in our program, and there are several ways you can do that. First of all, in a few minutes well be going to your phone calls. If you leave in the eastern and central time zones 2025853880. If you live out west, mountain and pacific time zones, or farther west, 2025853881. You can also send us a question or comment by twitter. Please use the hashtag firstladies. And you can go to our Facebook Page on cspan. Theres already a discussion underway about lucy hayes, and you can join that by asking questions or posting comments. Well mix many of those in throughout our 90 minutes together. Now, to illustrate what kind of a person she is, she had a lifelong interest after helping her husband at the civil war front and civil war veterans. Youve got a story to tell about an old veteran who came to the white house. Mr. Cullbertson yes, in 1879, an old 1812 soldier came to the white house to receive an honor, and hes supposed to have his picture taken. When he arrived, his uniform came separately and he was distraught that the sergeants stripes were not on the uniform. So lucy went and grabbed her sewing kit, sat down on the floor, sewed on the epaulets and the british minister came in, saw the first lady of the United States sitting on the floor ms. Swain at the white house. Mr. Cullbertson at the white house, sewing on this gentlemans rank. Ms. Swain which is how we learned this story, i would imagine. Mr. Cullbertson right. Ms. Swain hes the one that told it of the first lady. Mr. Cullbertson he did. Yes, it was not her. Ms. Swain so its important for us to move on for a bit, lucy hayes and the Temperance Movement happening in the United States. Now, first of all, today we often see the expression or nickname lemonade lucy. Was she known at the time by that name . Ms. Black no, not at all. I mean, in fact, tom and i were talking earlier, we dont even know what we cant even find where the reference first appeared. Its been but its one of those things thats just become apocryphal about her. I mean, i think one of the things thats you know, thats interesting about lucy is that she, you know, supports temperance, but never really affiliates with the womans Christian Temperance Union, who was you know, which was founded in ohio, her home state, by people that lived, you know within two hours drive from her. And theyre always trying to coopt her. So she comes to this from her mothers father, her maternal grandfather, who was a member of the state legislature, who really made her sign a pledge when she was young not to drink alcohol. And that just sort of carried over with her, but she was never really a carrie nationtype follower of the Temperance Movement. Ms. Swain so dave murdock asking on twitter, what prompted lucy to ban alcohol from the white house . Was it religious in nature . I want to parse that. First of all, did she ban alcohol from the white house . Mr. Cullbertson actually, no. Her husband made the decision to ban alcohol from the white house. And it was a decision partly political he wanted to keep the republicans within the party who were defecting to the Prohibition Party. He also wanted to set the moral tone because alcohol was the drug of choice in those days. There were many families that were ruined. Youve heard in this series about the sons of president s who managed to ruin their lives with alcohol. And hayes was never a prohibitionist. He never thought you should outlaw alcohol. He was he thought that the people who were running the Prohibition Party were political cranks who would also outlaw dancing and cardplaying. And he just wanted people to learn by education. Ms. Swain how popular was the Temperance Movement in the United States . Ms. Black well, at the hayeses time, not very. I mean, it really takes off at the end of the century. They come in right at the beginning of it. The thing that the reason that it begins to really take off is when it merges with the womens Suffrage Movement, because at the time of when the hayes first move into the white house, only 23 states allowed women to control their own property. And so one of the big problems with alcohol was, if women worked, their wages legally belonged to their sons or their brothers or their husbands. They could not cash their own paychecks or collect their own wages. So men would take that and go into the saloons ms. Swain and spend the womens money on alcohol . Ms. Black but also but its not just on i mean, the saloons also gave you shelter and gave you food and were political bases. They also gave you really cheap beer. And so it was its a complicated issue, because its really easy to say, oh, theyre just turning everybody into alcoholics, when what theyre doing is theyre feeding people, organizing people, giving them a place to party, you know encouraging them to drink, and not having womens recourse over their own money. So thats why it really takes off, because it leads to prostitution, it leads to bankruptcy, and it leads to venereal disease. Ms. Swain lucy was officially lobbied by the Temperance Movement to become a public advocate for their cause. Did she agree . Mr. Cullbertson she did not agree. She stuck with her husband and really didnt feel that women should be allowed to vote, and just she was not an advocate of womens suffrage. She was womens suffrage people came to the white house. She showed them around, gave them a tour of the conservatory and the rooms, but did not buy in. Ms. Swain and heres a quote that really helps to illustrate that. She said, it is a great mistake to suppose that i desire to dictate my views to others in this matter of the use of wine and such drinks. I do not use them myself, but i have no thought of shunning those who think and act differently. So what do we learn about her from this . Ms. Black well, we learn that first of all, that shes a fabulous politician. The second thing is, is that she is not an absolutist or a moralist. I mean, what shes got is she has made her decision. She believes that moderation is good and that, like her husband, shes in no way interested in outlawing everything, and that she is sticking to her own beliefs while trying to be respectful of others. Ms. Swain now, how is it that the womans Christian Temperance Union came to create an official portrait of lucy hayes . Mr. Cullbertson well, they wanted to memorialize the decision not to serve alcohol in the white house, and lucy was not pleased by that decision. The first thing they wanted to do was build a fountain, and she said, i dont want my memorial to be a water fountain. I want to be in the hearts of people, rather than on a piece of canvas, or particularly the irony of being a water fountain would certainly be galling. She was also not happy that they were trying to raise the money to do this a dime at a time. She said, i think im worth more than a dime. Ms. Swain but it became the official white house portrait . Mr. Cullbertson it did. Ms. Swain and were showing it to you on screen so you can see how we have for history preserved lucy hayes. How different is that view of her from the woman that youve come to know through your research . Ms. Black very different. I mean, i just i think the woman that tom has so eloquently described is an enigma. I mean, shes trying to figure out how to be her own person. Shes been stereotyped in a way that Mary Todd Lincoln was stereotyped. And it doesnt show the courage and the incredible guts she had. I mean, i just wish america understood if i could tell them one thing about lucy hayes that i find stunningly haunting is how much violence she saw up close during the war, in surgery and out. I mean, not only in ohio hospitals, but going to her husbands camps, where her brother, joe, was a surgeon. You know, she went in and out of the operating room. She did postoperative care. She saw people, you know without anesthetics suffering in horrific ways. When four soldiers, two of whom were wounded, two of whom were significantly ill, were late and missed their train to chicago, she opened what she called her back parlor in her house so that they could stay. You know, her it makes perfect sense to me that she sewed that sergeants stripes on. You know, i would absolutely be convinced that thats the least that she owed that man for what she knew that he went through. Ms. Swain on the note about violence, telemedicine on twitter asks, were the hayeses worried about their personal security with the disputed election and with lincolns assassination . Mr. Cullbertson well, there was a report that a bullet went through their parlor window in columbus before they came to the white house. You know, there was no secret service. They pretty much took it as as it came. Their son, webb, carried a pistol, and he was their only form of security. Ms. Swain cathy is our first caller tonight from springfield, missouri. Youre on, cathy. Good evening. Cathy, you there . Yes, go ahead. Cathy hi, i wanted to give a quick birthday shoutout to my dad, gary, in independence independence, missouri. Hes a huge fan of the program. Ms. Swain wonderful. Cathy second, i have a question. What led lucy to become an early supporter of the newly formed Republican Party . Ms. Swain thanks very much. Ms. Black you want to take it . Mr. Cullbertson well, she was an abolitionist right from the start. The Republican Party was the party of abolition. She was an admirer of john c. Fremont and his wife, and so it was logical that she be a republican right from the beginning. Ms. Swain on the womens Suffrage Movement, which was really burgeoning, and the famous name Elizabeth Cady stanton, part of the womens rights movement, came to the white house to see the president. And how did the hayeses react to her personal petition for them to be involved in the womens Suffrage Movement . Ms. Black well, they rejected it. I mean, it was they did not support womens suffrage. And Elizabeth Cady stanton at that point had become an exceedingly controversial person in republican circles. I mean, she had castigated lincoln for you know, for his abandonment her word of women during the civil war. She was very much opposed to the 15th amendment, because it excluded women, and so she had really campaigned against the principles that the hayeses dedicated their lives to, which were the basic principles of reconstruction. So she was not wellreceived at all. Ms. Swain carmen ts on twitter asks, was lucy hayes interested in any womens issues or rights issues, since she didnt believe that they should have the right to vote . Ms. Black well, yes. I mean, she was you know, tom, jump in, but she was absolutely passionate about womens education and encouraged young women to go to college which was, in fact, a radical thing to say during her time in the white house. And she saw temperance to a certain extent as a way to help women, but if youre asking in the way about womens wages, where women worked, you know womens rights to join a union womens right to vote, which were the Major Political issues at that time, she did not associate with that. Ms. Swain tom, we got lots of different questions about that College Degree, and im going to ask a couple of them all at once. First of all, Stevie Miller on facebook, im not sure if they had majors back then, but what did lucy study in college . And what was specifically applicable to her career . And other people want to know, where did she go to school specifically . Mr. Cullbertson she went to Wesleyan Female College in cincinnati, ohio, and she got a degree in liberal arts. She studied rhetoric composition, english, all the standard things. I dont think she studied political science, so but all was applicable to what she ended up being as first lady. She had to deliver speeches, which was probably good preparation for later on in life. Ms. Swain christopher cocoon facebook is very anxious to know whether or not more or less she rubbed her College Degree in the faces of members of congress or other serving elites while in the white house. Mr. Cullbertson no. Lucy hayes was a good politician. She knew how to carry on a conversation without being erudite, so no, i would say she did not give offense. Ms. Swain next is scott harriman, tennessee. Hi, scott. Whats your question . Scott well, i dont have a question. I just want to say that lucy hayes and rutherford, theyre just great role models, and ive enjoyed studying them. I just think they were really moral people and i really admire them a lot. Ms. Swain thanks very much. Gary robinson again on twitter asks, it seems like lucy might have been more popular than rutherford. Was that true . Ms. Black well, i think well, go ahead. Mr. Cullbertson well, theres a comment made by i believe it was mrs. James g. Blaine saying that, when the hayeses traveled, that rutherford insisted on lucy going along with him so that people wouldnt say bad things about rutherford. So perhaps she was more popular than he was. Ms. Swain our next call comes from julie. Are you watching us truly in caracas, venezuela . Julie, are you there . Julie its been great. Were learning so much American History, its just fantastic. Ms. Swain do you have a question about this first lady . Julie yes. Were the hayeses the first power couple in washington . Ms. Swain were the hayeses the first power couple in washington . Ms. Black no. No, i would say that the first power couple in washington were john and abigail adams, but the first power couple in the presidency were martha and george. Ms. Swain well go to another call. This is ms. Black its a good question, though. Ms. Swain and delighted to have people watching in venezuela tonight. Lindsay is in kingston pennsylvania. Whats your question . Lindsay hi, i dont have a question, either. I thought it might be fun for your viewers to know that im a distant relative of Rutherford Birchard Hayes on my fathers side of the family. My maiden middle name was birchard, much to my dismay, because nobody understood it but im proud to have it as part of my heritage now. And when i was in high school, i did some research on rutherford b. Hayes, and i found out that he had quite the sense of humor and even ended up riding a bicycle through the white house. And i thought your viewers might get a kick out of knowing that. Thank you. Ms. Swain thanks so much. Did he have a sense of humor . Mr. Cullbertson he did. It was a bit understated, but he had the habit of cutting up apples at the dinner table and tossing the pieces at people at the table, some of whom would not deign to catch them, but he also could tell a joke, but not often. Ms. Swain well, it was serious times. Mr. Cullbertson it was. Ms. Swain the hayeses lucy hayes gave birth to eight children, five of whom lived to adulthood. So are there lots of hayes descendants in the country today . Mr. Cullbertson we have more than 100 hayes descendants in our databases at the hayes center. We have four members of the family on our board of directors at the hayes center. And we had a reunion a couple of years ago that a number of descendants came to. Ms. Swain and on the topic which you mentioned earlier of entertaining in the white house, it was a dry white house, but they used it a lot to entertain and to advance the president s programs. Would you talk about that . Ms. Black well, sure. I mean, the thing that i always thought was very interesting about this was how lucy hayes would hate state dinners, but pull them off. I mean, she really would just would be very vocal with people that are around her, but about that. But i think that she was able to with an ease and a grace and an ability to put people at ease really help open the you know, the white house up to people in a way that would be, lets say, very different from mary todd, who would be charming, but had an edge to her. And lucy was just kind and was able to talk at the level of the person that was with them. Would you add anything to that . Mr. Cullbertson she was particularly good with old people and children. And that came through to everyone. Ms. Black yeah. Ms. Swain we are about to return to spiegel grove. Michael on twitter asks, is it true that spiegel grove is named using the german word for mirror because of the reflection from the lake . Mr. Cullbertson yes, its well, actually, its the ground there is clay. Water doesnt percolate in very easily, and so water sits on the ground. It creates mirrors, and it comes from the german word for mirror. Ms. Swain what time in their life together did they move into the place . Mr. Cullbertson they moved in to spiegel grove in 1873, when they inherited the home from rutherford rutherfords uncle, sardis birchard, who was his surrogate father, who was a lifelong bachelor, fortunately for rutherford, and they improved the house twice. They added to it in 1880, when they came back after the presidency, and in 1889, the year that lucy died. Ms. Swain and how many square feet is it today . Mr. Cullbertson it was about 16,000 square feet. Its a huge house, 11 bedrooms and 7 bathrooms. Ms. Swain and ms. Swain and how much of thats open to the public today . Mr. Cullbertson the entire house is open to the public. We just spent over 1. 5 million bringing the first floor of the home back to what it looked like during their time using vintage photographs and recreating a lot of the carpets and wallpapers and furnishings. Ms. Swain and youre looking at some of the results of that work right now on your screen. Were going to return to spiegel grove and learn more. Youve been hearing allusions to lucy hayes choice of this china for the white house. Were going to show it to you next. You decide, do you like it . Lets take a look. Ms. Weininger here at the hayes president ial center, we are very lucky to have a number of items that belonged to rutherford and lucy hayes when they were at the white house. One of our more controversial collections is the white house china. And its controversial it was controversial at the time, it remains controversial to this day because of the pattern of the china. Lucy was an outdoorsy person. She loved nature. And when it was time for her to choose what the white house official china pattern was going to be, she wanted to do something with ferns. Theodore davis had been chosen as the artist that was going to work with lucy to create the china, and they met out in the conservatory at the white house and were going through, looking at ferns, trying to decide what would make a good pattern, and as the two of them talked, davis suggested creating scenes that would highlight the flora and fauna of the United States. And lucy thought that was wonderful. So thats what they did. You can see some of the patterns are quite beautiful, but some of them are a little more interesting. We have lobsters. We have bleeding fish. We have ducks. People at the time did not feel like this was appropriate formal china. Even some of the journalists of the day wrote scathing articles about this china. One journalist said that the art was absurd. Another article was written that said, whos going to want to be eating this lovely meal and start to finish up their meat and see a duck or a giant frog at the bottom of their plate . People at the time did just thought that this was not appropriate china to have at a president ial dinner, but lucy felt like this was a way to educate visiting dignitaries from Foreign Countries who maybe werent familiar with the flora and fauna of the United States that this would be a way to show them what nature in the United States was like. Ms. Swain and from well, what do you think of the china . Mr. Cullbertson well, i actually like the china. And they made many other copies of each of the items for sale to the general public, because limoges or the Haviland Company in limoges, france, said they were losing their shirt on the whole project and wanted to make some revenue, so they produced and thats what you see sitting on the sideboard there. Ms. Swain and how scathing were the press reviews . Ms. Black scathing. I mean, you could see that i think the most polite language was absurd. I mean, i saw some stuff that said grotesque, so undignified. So the press really thought it was just unfitting for the white house. Ms. Swain and did she continue to use it, despite the criticism . Ms. Black yes. Mr. Cullbertson well, it wasnt delivered until just months before they left the white house, so Jacqueline Kennedy used the soup plates for cigarette ashes and so did richard nixon. But gerald ford apparently loved the set and would use it to serve congressional breakfasts. Ms. Swain so we want to spend a little bit of time talking about the hayes family and their life in the white house, but before we get to the white house life lets talk a little bit about how they got together in the first place and also that important formative years youve mentioned it, allida black, of the civil war. How did the hayeses meet . Mr. Cullbertson well, the hayeses first met when lucy was only 15 and rutherford was 24. They met at the Sulfur Springs at the Ohio Wesleyan university in delaware, ohio. At that point, president hayes mother knew about lucy and thought that they would be a good match, and rutherford rightly thought that she was a bit too young at that point. So in 1850, when rutherford moved to cincinnati to start his law practice down there, he met lucy again when she was about to graduate from the Wesleyan Female College, and thats when they struck up their relationship. And about a yearandahalf later, they were married in cincinnati. Ms. Swain now, he was 40 years old at the time that the civil war broke out, and he could have sat out the civil war. Was that ms. Black absolutely. Ms. Swain so why what was the decision by the family for him to volunteer . Ms. Black well, he immediately wanted to volunteer and signed up for a threeyear stint, and she was very supportive of him. I mean, it was never really a serious discussion about him not going. So it was always a question of going to preserve the union, and also because lucy had such strong abolition feelings i mean, she was additionally supportive of the union. Ms. Swain so hayes was what was his history in the civil war . How was he seen as a leader . Mr. Cullbertson well, hayes was fortunate that he spent most of the civil war in West Virginia trying to keep the confederates from moving from theater to theater. Whenever he did get out of there, he was wounded five times, once badly, almost lost his left arm. He was a William Mckinley was also in the same unit, wrote later that he turned into a tiger when he was on the battlefield, that he went from being this mildmannered attorney to being a warrior. Ms. Swain and his exploits had to become known, because his political career was launched while he was still in service. Mr. Cullbertson right. He was nominated to run for congress from his district in cincinnati. And he famously said that he would not campaign. He said a man who was fit for battle who would leave his post should be scalped, and that was used on Campaign Posters then when he ran for president in 1876. Ms. Swain there is one very dramatic story that id like to have either of you to tell which is, of his wounding, lucy was back in ohio and he telegraphs for her, im wounded. Come to me. What happened . Mr. Cullbertson well, it was pretty much a comedy of errors. A soldier was given money to go send telegrams to his wife, to his brotherinlaw, and to his uncle. He turned out to only have money enough for two telegrams, and he sent them to the men, and not to his wife. So she found out about it with the second telegram that said, i wont lose my arm. So they had arranged in advance to meet at the kirkwood house here in washington, d. C. , in case of wounding. She hopped on a train with her brotherinlaw, came to washington, d. C. , went to the patent office, and all kinds of places to try to find her husband. She ran into some men from the 23rd ohio who said, oh, hes back out in middletown maryland, at the scene of the battle of south mountain, and she went, and her brother, joe who had fixed his arm, came to pick them up, took them to see rutherford, and she spent two weeks with him. And thats that painting that you saw earlier in the segment was depicting her ministry to the troops there at the battlefield. Ms. Black and one of the one of the interesting stories about her train ride out there is the train is so crowded, shes got to stand up all the way. And when she finally sits down shes sitting next to this woman whos just distraught and turns to her and says that shes trying to see her husband whos in the hospital before her husband dies because hes lost both his legs. And shes just praying that she can get there to see him before he dies. So just imagine what shes feeling. Ms. Swain were going to return to spiegel grove in just a second, but, first, katherine in rockville, maryland, youre on the air. Katherine yeah, hi. I was wondering what lucys religion was and how religious was she . Ms. Swain thanks very much. An important question, because it colored a lot of the way they lived in the white house. Mr. Cullbertson right. Lucy was a very devout methodist. Her grandfather, who serves as her father, because her own father had died when she was 2 years old, was a devout methodist, and thats where her temperance leanings came from, as well as her abolition sentiments, too, so a very devout methodist. Ms. Swain in this video from spiegel grove, the hayes family home, we learn more about lucy hayes as a wife and mother. Lets watch. Ms. Weininger lucy was very dedicated to her family. Her children were extremely important to her. She and her husband had eight children. Five of them lived to adulthood. And we know from diaries and letters that this was kind of their gathering space. So not only is this their bedroom, but this is where they spent a lot of family time together. This room is also very important to lucy as a mother because this is where her eighth child was born, right here in this bed Manning Force hayes. He was the only one of the eight hayes children to be born here at spiegel grove. Tragically, he was never a very healthy child, and when he was about 18 months old, he actually contracted dysentery, and so he passed away, which was something that was very hard on the family. And this is lucys sewing machine, and this is what she took with her when she was encamped with her husband, rutherford, during the civil war. He was an officer in the civil war, and it was very important to her that she be with him as often as was practical. So when he was in winter camp and that kind of thing, when he wasnt actually out on campaign when he was in western virginia, she would travel with him. And she wrote in diaries and letters how important it was for her to be with him. She often wrote that she was very concerned about the welfare of the men that were in his regiment. So she took this with her, and she would actually do some sewing. She would mend some uniforms. Lucy was a very good seamstress. Not only did she repair soldiers uniforms, but actually when she was married in 1852 she made her own Wedding Dress a very beautiful, very elegant dress, so this is something that would have been very important to her. One of the things thats kind of interesting that we know occurred in this space, this is where they had family christmases, and they would write about these in the diary entries. They would have breakfast, and then they would come in here and they would open the presents. The whole family would gather in here. They have very simple presents not a lot of presents. But this is the space where they would do that, so a lot of traditions, a lot of important family traditions happened in here, as well as kind of daytoday activities with the family. This is a watercolor painting of the president and lucys bedroom at the white house. And you can see theres some very vibrant blue colors in here. Here in their bedroom at spiegel grove, that same color scheme is reflected in here, so we know that lucy liked the color blue. We know that, as evidenced by this painting here, and also when we were reupholstering some of the furniture in here to try and take it back to the original, what it had originally looked like, we found color swatches or swatches of the original fabric embedded within these pieces of furniture. So this is the bedroom of rutherford and lucys only daughter. Her name was fannie. She was named after the president s much beloved sister. This is a painting of fannie with her father. She was one of the only daughter. She was the president and lucys only daughter. And you can imagine a little girl growing up in a house like this, with a lot of brothers. Even though her parents claim that she was not the favorite, she had this furniture especially made for her. She had one of the bigger bedrooms. So she certainly was the darling to her mother and her father. Ms. Swain and from that, i want to call up on screen a picture that we found, a photograph we found thats a very compelling image of lucy hayes. Lets show it to you right now. Where was this picture taken Tom Culbertson . Mr. Cullbertson the picture was taken in the conservatory of the white house. And it shows lucy with her daughter, fannie, her son, scott, and the daughter of the theodore r. Davis, who was the man who designed the white house china. Lucy loved the 12 conservatories that are in the white house or were in the white house. Every morning, she would make the rounds in there. She would send flowers off to the various hospitals in washington, d. C. She was a very compassionate person, in fact, one of the or a number of the flowers she sent were to peggy eaton, that eaton that weve heard about on previous occasions, that when she died, lucy sent flowers off to her funeral. Ms. Swain from the petticoat affair in the jackson administration. Mr. Cullbertson yep, uhhuh. Ms. Swain bob is watching us in baltimore, maryland. Hi, bob. Your question . Bob hi, im enjoying the program as always. My question involves from what i understand was a key intellectual purpose to both mrs. Hayes and her husband, and that was specifically the collection of books. She not only enjoyed reading books, but also collecting them, which leads me to my question. Did she have any particular type of book or genre that she preferred . Ms. Swain tom . Mr. Cullbertson the hayeses collected over 12,000 books, all of which are at the Rutherford Hayes library in fremont, ohio. And she preferred light fiction. She liked Harriet Beecher stowe, not necessarily uncle toms cabin. She liked to read to the children. Rutherfords taste went more to shakespeare and the heavier drama, but William Dean Howells was a relative by marriage, so they would sit around and read to each other from the latest howells book or dickens. Ms. Swain while were talking about life in the white house, an interesting juxtaposition about the hayeses interests. They were interested in the white house as a building. They were antiquarians who preserved and even found some of their predecessors furniture but they were also interested in technology. Ms. Black yes. Ms. Swain so they brought the typewriter. They put plumbing in the white house. What else did they do to the building . Ms. Black well, im not really sure. Tom, do you know that . Mr. Cullbertson well, they expanded the conservatories for one thing. But one problem they had was that congress would not appropriate money to fix it up. The carpets had holes in them, so she strategically placed the furniture. She had the curtains reversed so that the worn bottoms were put up toward the top. She went up in the attics and found pieces of furniture. Got a few things reupholstered even went out and bought some pieces. So once they finally did get money, she put first in the new carpets in the east room and reupholstered pieces and added one more conservatory. Ms. Swain well, that is preserving the white house history and as it is. The technology is fascinating to me. Alexander graham bell comes and brings the telephone. They install telephones in the white house. Mr. Cullbertson they had the first telephone in washington, d. C. , but it only went to the Treasury Department building. She was so thrilled by it that she had a group of singers in and had them sing loudly into the phone, and one one base singer hit a particular note, he exploded a piece within the receiver of the phone. The other thing was, Thomas Edison also visited the white house. He arrived at 11 oclock at night, because congress had kept him there too long demonstrating the machine. So rutherford was so impressed by it that he got the ladies up at midnight, took them an hour to get dressed again, and they stayed up until 3 oclock in the morning playing with the new recording device. Ms. Swain right now in washington, the Washington Monument is being reconstructed after the earthquake that we experienced here not so long ago, but roger horn reminds us that lucy hayes was responsible for overseeing the completion of the Washington Monument. Can you tell us the story of that . Mr. Cullbertson well, it was completed in 1885, but the money had been appropriated during the Grant Administration to revive it, but they didnt get around to doing it until the Hayes Administration. Thomas casey, who was in charge of public buildings in washington, d. C. , was a very good friend of the hayeses. And he was the one who oversaw it, and lucy spent a lot of time with him, because he was also the man in charge of the white house china. So she was she liked to take people on tours of the place. We have a famous owl, a stuffed owl at spiegel grove that got caught up in the plumbbob within the Washington Monument. When the owl caused it to shake, people thought maybe there was an earthquake, and fortunately at that point, it was only the owl. And so we have it stuffed and on display at the museum in fremont. Ms. Swain weve told you that the hayeses marriage was really a love match and quite a partnership. While they were in the white house, they marked the 25th anniversary of their wedding and they did so with a public ceremony. Now, all of us are going to be a little envious of this, because she actually wore her Wedding Dress after giving birth to eight children. Thats pretty impressive. Ms. Swain now, heres a question from president ialponderings on twitter. Lucy and rutherford renewed their wedding vows at the white house. Was this genuine or a political move . Mr. Cullbertson no, it was genuine. The hayeses seldom did anything for public effect. The dress, however, did have to be let out quite a bit, so but it was the dress. She didnt wear it for very long. Ms. Swain oh, so i shouldnt be quite so impressed as i was . Mr. Cullbertson right, yeah. Ms. Swain okay. Heres another quote, to give us a sense of her thinking. This is from her and she writes, i am not in an exultant mood this morning, owing probably to my reflection on the character of the ladies of the white house and feeling that the last occupant does not come up to the intellectual standards of her predecessors, a sad reflection but nevertheless true. Ms. Swain so what was lucy hayes view of other first ladies . Do we know . Ms. Black well, tom will know that better that i do, really. Mr. Cullbertson well, i think that shows her humility and her feelings of inadequacy more than anything. And she thought that a lot of the first ladies that went before her were quite spectacular people and that i think shes being a little hard on herself here, though. Ms. Swain well, a question for you from your scholarship. Then looking across the ladies of this era, how does she compare in her approach to the job . Ms. Black well, i think she made it her own with much more with much less tension than the other women who came before her. I mean, Mary Todd Lincoln clearly wanted to be first lady and came in at a you know probably the most trying time in our nations history. And lucys coming in at the tail end of that. And when, you know, mary todd is trying to deal with the immediate horrors of war and trying to make the white house the nations symbol, you know she she gets press criticism for a very different way, you know, for trying to spend the nations money in a way when it really should be going toward fighting the war and caring for the wounded. What lucy gives us is a graceful transition to the end of reconstruction. I mean, the country really understands her strong abolition feeling. They also see how graceful she is in receiving democrats into the white house. And so i think she helps smooth the tensions that julia grant brought in, you know, with allegations of you know, when her husband was under fire, and so i think, you know, lucy really makes it her own space in a way thats easier, if that makes sense. What do you think, tom . Mr. Cullbertson yeah, and i think that she tried to get rid of a lot of the formality ms. Black absolutely. Mr. Cullbertson and to invite people to come in off the street who maybe would have not felt like they could come in during previous administrations. Ms. Black i mean, she really did try to make it the peoples house. Ms. Swain on that note, Sheldon Cooper asks, it seems like the last four or five first ladies that weve learned about found the white house in great disrepair, always asking for appropriations from congress or spending their own money. Did things just wear out more quickly back then . He asked. Mr. Cullbertson well, yes. People also stole things that they claimed that there was a gentleman who would go around after each of the public receptions with a bucketful of pieces of chandeliers to replace the prisms when they were stolen. Ms. Swain they cut tassels off of curtains. Mr. Cullbertson yes, and took pieces of carpet and all sorts of things. Americans were known for taking things. Ms. Swain try that today, huh . Mr. Cullbertson yeah. Ms. Swain find yourself arrested, i think, for trying Something Like that. Ms. Black and also, things get dirty. They wear out, you know . Ms. Swain because a lot people were constantly coming through. Ms. Black theres traffic all the way through it. You know, you can get clean, but you cant get perfectly spotless. Mr. Cullbertson well, the streets of washington, d. C. , were mud at that point. Ms. Black they were they were filthy. Mr. Cullbertson and if you get 3,000 people coming in to a public reception on an afternoon, youd track a lot of mud in. Ms. Swain by the way, we have a terrific website. Weve been working with the White House Historical association on this entire series, and with their help, weve created a great website for this. You can find it at cspan. Org. Theres a first ladies link, easily accessible. All of the progress weve done so far are there, and every week we have a special feature about each first lady. This one is a video of the 25th anniversary of the hayeses which we just heard, that they celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary. And youll see the cameo that was created for that event. So find our website and youll learn more about the history of the first ladies. Ms. Swain well, were going to return. Weve been talking a bit about her approach to her job, her image and the like. Were going to return to spiegel grove museum and learn more about her white house dresses. Style and image was a very important part of being first lady. And whether they liked it or not, people were discussing the way first ladies dressed and what they wore. Here we have a number of lucys gowns that she wore, this rubycolored velvet gown is what she wore for her official white house portrait. This gown is called ashes of roses, and she actually wore this for her eldest son, birchards, wedding. This is another gown that she wore to a wedding. This was the wedding of her niece, which actually took place in the white house. Lucy actually had kind of her own style. Journalists at the time, when she came to washington, said oh, shell change her hair and shell kind of upgrade her dress and her appearance. Well, she took a fashion from fremont to the white house that she was very comfortable with. Thats not to say she wasnt an elegant dresser. Its a lovely gown, has lots of fine details to it, but its not ostentatious. It is a little conservative. This gown here is what she wore to a new years reception, which took place at the white house. And this gown is the one that probably has the most sentimental value to lucy. She sewed it herself. Its her own wedding gown that she wore for her marriage to rutherford. Ms. Swain allida black, lenore little on facebook has i have a question about lucys personal style. Was her hair parted in the middle the style of the day . I see her wearing this hairdo throughout her life. Did her part widen over time . Did she have a servant who helped with her coiffeur . Her pictures show her to be a very lovely first lady with beautiful gowns. Thank you for answering this. Ms. Swain now, weve already met first ladies who understood the power of influence of fashion. Was lucy hayes one of those . Ms. Black well, she certainly didnt change her hairstyle when she was there. I mean, it was it was what she wore her entire life. I think that she was very comfortable with who she was. She certainly understood how to carry herself well. I think her clothes reflected not the daringness of the time but the dignity of her position, not in a way that made her seem colorful and vibrant without being provocative. Ms. Swain what do you think tom . Mr. Cullbertson well, she saw herself as a mother of eight ms. Black absolutely. Mr. Cullbertson who should not be an exhibitionist and that the tone was fairly conservative and something wholesome. Ms. Swain caitlin is watching us in springfield, missouri. Caitlins on. Caitlin hi. Ms. Swain good evening. Question . Caitlin yeah. How did lucy cope with losing several children at such a young age . Ms. Swain thanks very much. Mr. Cullbertson well, losing children was sort of a normal type of thing back then. The saddest story was the loss of the first of their children. Lucy and the children had gone to visit rutherford in the field of battle in West Virginia, and within a couple of days, their son died. They gave his body to a soldier to take back to cincinnati for burial and the rest of the family remained in camp. Rutherford wrote that he never really became attached to the child, but it was really hard on lucy. But she did grieve, but she didnt have a whole lot of time to grieve, because she had to take care of the other children and move on. Ms. Swain next is a call from bill, whos in fostoria, ohio. Hi, bill. Bill hi, hi. Thanks for taking my call. Ive been to spiegel grove many, many times. How many descendants does president hayes have living right now . I got to meet a lot of them several years ago when they were at a gathering in spiegel grove. Thank you. Ms. Swain thanks so much. He wasnt listening earlier, i think, when mr. Cullbertson well, we have more than 100 in our database, so ms. Swain are any of them in politics . Mr. Cullbertson there arent any at the national level. There is a mayor in California Republican and a woman. Ms. Swain and weve been looking at quotes from lucy, but lets show you a quote from Rutherford Hayes, the president , about lucy, who said of her, i dont know how much influence mrs. Hayes has with congress but she has great influence with me. What was her approach like . Some of the first ladies actually would sit in the congressional gallery, listen to the debates, would try specifically to address individual members of congress that could help advance the president s plan. Was she one of these first ladies . Mr. Cullbertson no, lucy stayed out of politics. In fact, rutherford put out a statement that no one from his immediate family would have a position or paid position in the government to try to keep her family members, mainly, from applying for jobs. And at different times, lucy would write to her son, webb who was sort of a confidential secretary to his father, saying, could you try to influence your father on appointments . So lucy felt that she was getting no place with rutherford. Ms. Swain but he did, in fact if not appointing relatives, was a president who appointed africanamericans to posts. Can you tell us about that . Mr. Cullbertson Rutherford Hayes did appoint Frederick Douglass as the martial of the city of washington, d. C. He was very aware that it was a symbolic gesture on his part. He also had africanamericans appointed to a number of positions in the south, mainly. The hayeses were also the first to have a black opera singer perform for them in the white house, madame celica, and had some other black performers on their saturday performances in the white house. Ms. Swain many people are interested in her causes. We talked about the fact that she helped with the the funds to build finish the Washington Monument. You mentioned earlier her interest in the orphans of the civil war. What other causes was she involved in . Ms. Black well, she was very interested in mental health, as well, i mean in terms of the sanitation and the treatment that we today would consider to be shellshocked soldiers have. She would care a lot about veterans pensions when they you know, when they got their pensions especially, if they were disabled and i mean, there are wonderful records of when she would care for people who were this is before she was really a first lady, but when she would still be in ohio and there would be Wounded Soldiers who hadnt been paid, and she would really help set up a system to expedite the ontime delivery of their paychecks. So she was interested in orphans, in Veterans Affairs in the education of the deaf and in mental health. Ms. Swain and also she was very involved with the indigent population in washington, d. C. . Mr. Cullbertson yes, and she did that without making a big fanfare about it. She would give money to some of the employees of the white house to go out and give it to the poor. But another one of her causes was the education of indians and of blacks. She went down to virginia to the Hampton Institute and saw blacks and indians being educated there. She paid for a scholarship for a woman who would be the wife of not Frederick Douglass oh, im having a mind thing here. But and then the Carlisle Indian school was founded during the Hayes Administration, and she had a bit to do with the with that. Ms. Swain Rutherford Hayes, as we learned, was announced from the beginning he was going to be a oneterm president. It was constant tussles with congress during his time in congress. Here are just some of the key events during his administration. As allida black told us, very importantly, the end of reconstruction. In 1878, the blandallison act which calls for the resumption of silver coinage. Hayes vetoed it, and Congress Passed the measure over his veto. In 1879, he vetoed the Army Appropriation bills. After three versions, hayes finally accepted it, and a rider is attached to the original bill that would repeal the force acts. And finally, in 1880, a u. S. China treaty granting trading privilege restricting immigration and banning the opium trade. How does history view the Hayes Administration . Mr. Cullbertson well, i think that what hayes managed to do was to at least not have the scandals that you had during the Grant Administration. He managed to retrieve some of the powers to the presidency that had been lost during the johnson and the Grant Administrations. He appointed his own cabinet. He made a number of other controversial appointments without congresss blessing. He was he brought the country together when they did their traveling throughout the country, the hayeses wanted to include the south and the west and new england. At the time, he felt that the nomination of James Garfield and garfields election was a sign that he could have been elected had he chosen to run for a second term in office, so he felt that the corner had been turned and the Republican Party was now swinging back. Ms. Swain he was the they were the most traveled president to date. Is that right . The first couple . Mr. Cullbertson the hayeses traveled thousands of miles, almost always together. They were the first to go to the west coast during their term in office. Ms. Swain and was there Extensive Press Coverage of their travels . Ms. Black yes, there was. But can i just go back to, to just say two other things about ms. Swain sure. Ms. Black about the Hayes Administration that viewers might be interested in especially those that follow the machinations of the senate . I mean, one of the things that hayes was really very successful in doing was limiting the number of riders that could be attached to legislation to change the intent of legislation. And the second thing that he did was really begin in an incremental way to really put in a Civil Service system, to really appoint where you assessed peoples qualifications before you gave them the job. Ms. Swain weve talked around the periphery. President ialponderings, they write on twitter, with their support of black people postslavery, the hayeses seemed like progressive diversity advocates of their era. Well, if you agree with that or not, but could you give us a sense of what was happening to black americans in the country in these years, as reconstruction winds to an end . Ms. Black yeah, absolutely. Well, i think that the hayeses really were progressives, but they were they were ineffectual in really helping the south adhere to the law. And i say this as someone who was born and raised in memphis tennessee. I mean, hayes pulled the last troops out after securing verbal commitments and written commitments from the Southern States that they would adhere to the civil rights that the 14th and the 15th amendments guaranteed africanamericans. And when hayes pulls those troops out, the south equality in the south implodes. You have racial violence escalating. The ku klux klan skyrockets. You have the introductions of the mississippi codes, which really begin in 1877 and are crystallized in 1901, that really deprive blacks of being able to own property, restricts voting rights, for example, in mississippi. And i think its in 1871, 96 percent of africanamerican men can vote in the state of mississippi. When hayes ends reconstruction 10 years later, less than 0. 5 percent of africanamerican men can vote because of the violence and the intimidation, the grandfathers clause, the poll tax, and the literacy test. So its really two separate nations where africanamericans emboldened by Frederick Douglass in the north begin to really organize and begin to secure their rights, while the south really has theirs stripped away. Ms. Swain mike is watching us in honolulu. Youre on. Hey, mike. My fault, i pushed the button. There you are, mike. Go ahead. Mike can you hear me . Ms. Swain yes, i can, thanks. Mike its 4 10 here, hawaii standard time. And i am a direct relative to my grandmother, of course. Her name is jessie hayes. And she was born about 1870 in the lower midwest, and probably by blood, long removed. But i looked at this beautiful lucy, sitting erect in the chair, looking at the camera with big eyes and her beautiful children looking at the camera. I was so impressed. And, obviously, president hayes really, really scored when this woman married him. And shes an educated woman. Of course, at the time, i presume its kind of controversial having a first lady with a degree, let alone an abolitionist and let alone a quiet woman who loved her children and especially especially loved her husband whether he was president or mayor or whatever. Ms. Swain thank you, mike. A nice summary of lucy hayes for us, all the way from honolulu today. They said they were going to stay one term, but by the time it was time to leave, how did the hayeses feel about leaving the white house . Mr. Cullbertson well, they were relieved to be leaving, but they also said it was the best time of their lives to that point. But they felt like they didnt want to wear out their welcome. They had managed to do some of the things that they wanted to do, but they were happy to hand it off to the garfields and let them sit in the hot seat for a while. Ms. Swain were going to return to spiegel grove for another video, and this is about the postwhite house years. Ms. Weininger these are a few of the tokens that the hayeses received in appreciation for their stance on temperance. Lucy was known for not serving alcohol in the white house, and some of the temperance groups that existed in the United States at that time really admired her for taking that kind of stand. And so as she and rutherford were leaving the white house there was a group of women, the womans christian working association of belonged to a Presbyterian Church in ottawa, illinois. They wanted to give her a gift to thank her for making that kind of a stand. And so what they did is they sent a number of pages out among notable people in illinois and asked them to sign this paper for mrs. Hayes. And when all the papers were returned, they bound them into these beautiful volumes that we have here. There are actually six of these. We have a couple of very interesting signatures in here. One is from sarah polk, and she signed it mrs. James polk of polk place, nashville, davidson county, tennessee. And then we also have another autograph that is kind of interesting, and it was written by samuel clemens, also known as mark twain. And what he wrote is that, total abstinence is so excellent a thing that it cannot be carried to too great an extreme. In my passion for it, i even carry it so far as to totally abstain from total abstinence itself. Now, that does sound like something mark twain would say. In addition to these beautifully bound autograph books, the womens group also had these lovely portieres made for lucy. Theyre exquisitely and intricately embroidered. Theyre very large. Basically, portieres were door curtains, and they hung right here in the house in this doorway, and they divided this in room, the library parlor, from the president s study. Ms. Swain Tom Culbertson, what were their postwhite house years like . Mr. Cullbertson well, they werent as long as they really wanted them to be, but they really enjoyed having their family back together. They only had one child married at this point, so they still had two teenagers at home with them, one son off at college and the other was working in cleveland. They hoped to have grandchildren coming in at any point. They entertained people. But the hayeses kept going with their causes. Rutherford hayes was a trustee of the ohio state university. Lucy was involved with the womens Home Missionary Society, the only organization that she ever took a leadership role with. And ms. Swain what did she do for them . Mr. Cullbertson she was the president of the organization. She would go kicking and screaming to the annual meeting and make a short address each year. It was the what the womens Home Missionary Society was supposed to do was improve the home life for the poor, educate women on how to raise a family basically, particularly blacks indians, poor people of the south. There were 44,000 members of the organization with 42 missions throughout the United States. Ms. Swain but she did come into criticism for comments that she made during these years. What were they . Mr. Cullbertson she made a comment that there were more immigrants coming in from the heathen nations as she put it the Eastern European countries, and she thought in those countries that they did not respect women and that the chore of trying to assimilate them into the United States would be tougher, but they would attempt to do so, so she got quite a bit of criticism over that particular speech in 1887. Ms. Swain so it shows us that the presss continued interest in first couples, even after they leave the white house, is this a new phenomenon . Ms. Black no. I mean, there were i mean the press certainly hounded mary todd, for example, you know, sent all these salacious rumors about ouija boards and, you know, insane tantrums and hallucinations and institutions. I think that the hayeses showed you know, brought america back in a way after the war. I mean, theyre relatively scandalfree when they leave the white house. Their devotion to each other is palpable. You know, they dont change when theyre there; they dont change when they leave. And so the country continues to be interested in them and grateful, i think. Mr. Cullbertson yes. Ms. Swain why was she giving speeches about immigration . What was happening to the country in terms of immigration . Ms. Black well, europe is imploding in Economic Crises and early well, the second wave of revolutions. And so you have new immigrants who are coming into the United States, who are no longer englishspeaking and irish catholic. You know, theyre disproportionately from Central Europe or russian jews, and so and from southern italy. So you have people of different races, different education levels, different religions, and different skills that scare americans. And, you know, its a fear that Teddy Roosevelt will very much express when he assumes the presidency. Ms. Swain next is jennifer watching us in granger, indiana. Hi, jennifer. Jennifer hi, i enjoyed this series so very much. I did just catch that i heard the one son was collegeeducated. Were all the children collegeeducated . And what did they end up doing with their lives, the other ones i did not hear about . Thank you. Ms. Swain thank you. Mr. Cullbertson well, all four of the boys were college went to college. They werent all graduates. Their daughter fannie did not go to college, which is rather strange, considering the background of the parents. Their oldest son, birchard, was an attorney in toledo. Their second son, webb, was a founder of Union Carbide and became quite wealthy. Hes the gentleman who started the Rutherford Hayes president ial center, which opened in 1916. Their third son, rutherford, became a Real Estate Developer in North Carolina and in florida. And their fourth son, scott, worked for General Electric out of first, cincinnati, and then out of schenectady, new york. Ms. Swain Kathy Robinson wants to know, did the hayeses build additions to spiegel grove after returning from the white house . And i have another tweet, which i cant call up very quickly but someone asked, did the hayeses have any pets . And the answer is, boy, did they, huh . Mr. Cullbertson yes, they did. Well, they did add to the house. In 1880, they added three bedrooms, a large drawing room and a library, and then in 1889, unfortunately, lucy never saw the back addition to the home, which had four more bedrooms and a large dining room. They had pets. They had in the white house they had a mockingbird, a goat couple of dogs. They had the first siamese cat in the United States. It was given to them by the ambassador from siam, as they called it at that point, and that was also the name of the cat. Unfortunately, it died while they were on a trip out west and was buried there at the white house. Mr. Cullbertson we have many pictures of the hayeses with their dogs, once they got to spiegel grove. She also had cows, pigeons ducks. You name it, she had it. Ms. Swain just to follow up on your comments about healing, telhurth purchaseon facebook was she as concerned about veterans from the south as she was for veterans of the north . Ms. Black yes, but in a different way. She wanted to make sure that she looked at that as a way to reconcile, not as a way to really instill mercy on southerners. I mean, what she really wanted veterans to be were to be to have their wounds healed, their pensions on time, and that the country get over the war and advance the cause of negro rights. Ms. Swain this is our final visit in this program to spiegel grove, and it talks about lucy hayes final years there. Lets watch. Ms. Weininger lucy was such a nurturing person, and not only did she care about children and less fortunate members of society, but she also loved animals and loved being outside. So when she returned here from the white house, it wasnt very long before she had a whole menagerie of animals here at spiegel grove. She had goats, cows, chickens, cats, dogs. She loved to have dogs near her. And she loved pigeons so much, interestingly enough, that she actually had holes drilled in to the risers between some of the steps here, so that the pigeons would have places to roost. In fact, some of the last pictures that we have of her before she passed away, shes out here in the yard, feeding the pigeons, wearing one of rutherfords old beatup hats. And actually, she loved animals so much and she loved to go outside and do her chores that when people would come to visit her, she would take them right on out to the chicken coop with her to feed the chickens. So this was something that was very much a part of her and was very important to her. When rutherford and lucy returned to spiegel grove from the white house, this space still was very important to them. It was kind of the nucleus of the household. This is where the family spent their informal time. But now theyre a little older. Theyve got some grandchildren, which they love it when grandchildren visit them here at spiegel grove, and actually one of lucys favorite items that was in this room is an advertisement that features a very happy, cherubiclooking baby, and it so reminded her of her eldest grandchild that she hung that picture in here right by her bed. This is also the room where lucys story ends. She was sitting in one of the chairs here in this room. She was working on some needlepoint. She was watching her younger Children Play tennis outside the windows here. And she suffered a massive stroke, and she kind of slumped over in her chair. The family rushed in, carried her to the bed here, and this is where she passed away. She was buried in a cemetery here in fremont near spiegel grove. Eventually, her children had her and rutherford reinterred here and they are now buried right here on the grounds of spiegel grove. Ms. Swain Tom Culbertson, how old was she when she passed away . Mr. Cullbertson lucy was 57 when she died. She had her funeral there in spiegel grove. She was laid out in the front hallway, and thousands of people came through. One of the Great Stories of her funeral was as the procession went back behind the home and past the fencedin area where the cows were assembled, they lined up like soldiers, they said, and gave her a salute as she left. Ms. Swain for her love of animals. I want to go back to that photograph that we just saw in the video of lucy hayes in her postwhite house years with the pigeons. Mr. Cullbertson yes, they had those holes drilled in the steps right outside their bedroom, which must have been pretty annoying, or perhaps they got up early in the day, but she fed them daily and went out and milked the cows, gathered the eggs, churned the butter. Ms. Swain did the president share her love of animals or did he tolerate lucys love of them . Mr. Cullbertson rutherford did not love as much, but he was an avid horseman, as was she. Ms. Swain and how long did he live after her death . Mr. Cullbertson rutherford lived three more years beyond her death, and ms. Swain and how did he spend that time . Mr. Cullbertson he was still active with the ohio state university, with Prison Reform education of blacks and indians. He attended lots of conferences. Did a little bit of traveling, finally got out of the United States, visited bermuda, but other than that, only in the United States. Ms. Swain did he stay active with the Republican Party . Mr. Cullbertson he well, he stayed out of politics. He just felt that past president s should really stay out of active politics, though he did rejoice when republicans were elected and wasnt so pleased when democrats got elected. Ms. Swain damian is watching us in new york city. Youre on, damian. Damian first of all, this is a very fascinating show. Ive never known so much about rb hayes, and certainly his wife, lucy. Thank you for this tremendous, tremendous show about both of them. Ms. Swain thank you, sir. Damian i must say, you know, rb hayes was a unique guy. I mean, the idea that he would only have one term is and swear to that was amazing. But most importantly, his wife was so influential, given her College Credentials and the fact that, you know, during rb hayes, you know, president ial incumbency, he was the first president to allow women to testify in front of the supreme court. Do you believe that his wife had much to do with that . And do you believe that that helped craft his decisionmaking around policy . Thank you very much for the show. Thank you. Ms. Swain allida black . Ms. Black sure. I dont think that had anything to do with women testifying before the court. What about you . Mr. Cullbertson well, president hayes did sign the legislation that allowed women to practice before the supreme court, but it just so happened that the bill was placed in front of him and he couldnt figure out a way to not sign it. Ms. Black to go around it yeah. Mr. Cullbertson so yeah, i mean, thats pretty much it. Ms. Swain anything more for that caller, though, on the influence, again, that she might have had on his thinking . Mr. Cullbertson i dont think there was there was much. I mean, they they agreed on most things, but she knew better than to try to lobby him hard on anything. Ms. Black and i think if the influence occurred, it occurred much earlier when they were beginning when he was practicing law in ohio. And she helped change his assessment of abolitionists who he thought were extremists. Ms. Swain Tony Pistilli wants to go all the way back to our first discussion about the hayestilden election. Dont you know if you know the answer to this, but he asks on facebook, was there some kind of deal forged in the senate because of the closeness of the tildenhayes election, that the senate and, most importantly the southern senators would approve of hayes election if he agreed to end reconstruction . Ms. Black yes. The deal was, is that hayes would remove the last of the southern troops i mean, the last of the union troops in the south, which were in new orleans and in columbia, to really pull the last of the army out of the south. Hayes did do that, but he only did that after he extracted promises from both communities that they would, in fact respect the 15th amendment which they, of course, did not. Ms. Swain dan watching in san diego, youre on. Dan yes, back to the tilden election, quick question. How supportive, obviously, she was, but how much did the controversy over the election with him getting the nickname rutherfraud really affect her as far as out in the public . Did she have any comments in public regarding that . Mr. Cullbertson she made no comments in public. Im sure she was disturbed by it, but she and rutherford both felt that he would have been legitimately elected had blacks been able to vote in the numbers they had in the previous elections. Ms. Swain we are getting close to the end of the program. I want to show you allida blacks work. She spent many years on this. This is produced by the White House Historical association. It is a collection of biographies of all the first ladies. We are offering this at cost as a way for you to learn more about the biographies of the first ladies, so if youre interested, go to that website that i mentioned before and you can find out how to make it part of your personal book collection. How did you get interested in this subject . Ms. Black well, i came into it through eleanor roosevelt. And then i started going backwards and forwards to figure out the extent to which women were involved in policy in their husbands administration. And then i was lucky enough to be asked by the White House Historical association to redo the book, and its been a labor of love since 96. Ms. Swain well, as we look across first ladies, Caitlin Lauer asked the question that we want to end the program with which is, was lucy what was lucy hayes Lasting Legacy as a first lady, Tom Culbertson . Mr. Cullbertson well, i think she showed that you could be an excellent mother and a supportive wife and also a gracious hostess and be inclusive, welcome in anybody regardless of your social strata into the white house. She didnt bend to the whims of society. She didnt change her look. She didnt change her style showed that a woman can be a woman on her own. Ms. Swain was she transformational or transitional . Ms. Black hmm, transitional. Ms. Swain and what do you believe her Lasting Legacy should be . Ms. Black i think people need to understand the courage that it takes to hold that position that she brought her own memories and her own love of country into this, as well as support and respect for her husband. Ms. Swain our thanks to allida black and to Tom Culbertson, to the great folks at the rutherford b. Hayes president ial center, which you can visit if you are in northwestern ohio. Fremont, ohio, is where theyre based. And to the folks at the White House Historical association for their continuing help. That is our look tonight at the life and times of lucy hayes. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2014] American History tv is fidgeting the band original series, first ladies, and lets image at 8 00 p. M. On sunday nights throughout the rest of