About something so what i do in this book is i restore history to the subject of covert electoralinterference. I debunk as myth that this is confined to the 2016 election. I show how the soviet union interfered in elections during the postwar period and how they went toe to toe during the cold war, how russia is interfering in elections all over the world today and only then to do i 2 examine 2016 and its aftermath because at the moment russia is actively interfering in the 20 20 election and to me by restoring that history to Public Discourse and by preceding the fact that this is not all new we can prepare for and defend against this threat in a much more effective and comprehensive way. What is new about what russia is doing and what are they doing that theyve always done . Whats new here . I would say whats not new is the idea of russia covertly interfering in the us election area as i detail in the book russia targeted, the soviet union targeted americas 1960, 68 and 84 elections in order to work against republicans. I would say whats also not new are the ideas behind what russia is doing such as spreading propaganda across a vulnerable News Platform or seeking to find and release private information about public figures or even stuffing ballot boxes whether it be physically or digitally free at whats new here is that because of the internet there able to turbocharge all of those ideas. The common again because of the internet there able to penetrate america at scale which the soviet union struggled to do and then see, but also new is that there able to pursue two types of interference once in both seeking to spread propaganda as they did in 16 but also see to probe and penetrate our voting systems as they did during the 2016election. With what you know about what russia has been doing in the past and is doing now, what concerns you the most about the upcoming election. I would say a couple of things on my mind. The first thats important to keep in mind is there are always two ways to interfere covertly in an election whether its 1920 or 2020, either by manipulating pupeople, Public Opinion or by minute deleting systems, trying to affect actual balance so we know right now russia is seeking to manipulate Public Opinion across social media essentially by releasing information that microsoft says its trying to steal what most concerns me is thinking from russias perspective what is our greatest vulnerability right now because that situation here, trying to assess where we are weak and where we are usually weak at this present moment is around our actual voting process because theres so much doubt as a result of the coronavirus this election will proceed fairly, that the voting process can be trusted. The president alleging it is of course rigged and so from russias perspective which aims by the way to tear down american democracy, to disrupt, discredit and delegitimize our election process, you can either spend this information around our voting process or to sabotage our systems and in select places in so more that you can perhaps get a lot of return based on relatively little effort on how much doubt already exists that we will be able to hold a stable election in the fall. Let me take a second and remind arguers they can participate in this conversation area were going to hold up regular lines and that means republicans, your lines are going to be 2027488000 one. Democrats, call him at 2027488000. Independence, your number 202748 8002 and keep in mind you can always text us at 202748 8003 and we are always here on social media, on twitter and facebook cspan and david, we already have a question from one of our social media followerswho wants you to answer this. Maybe the experts finally can tell us what he means interference e . Is a russian guy expressing an opinion on facebook interference . Is some statement by putin s interference or are they packing the ballot box . Thats an important question. For me what i study and what i qualify as this subject is something thats known as covert electoral interference and to qualify as such you have to meet three specific qualifications. One, you have to be covert. The hand of your involvement has to be hidden. If you are publicly rsendorsing a candidate, if Vladimir Putin endorses donald trump is not qualified but if russia steals and then leaks documents through a thirdparty, thereby hiding its hand your in the ballgame. The second word is electoral. And for something to be electoral you have to be targeting an electoral process so a vote that determines the leader of your country. If youre trying to mold Public Opinion to as an end in itself or if youre trying to influence maybe let, another type of operation but it is not an electoral operation and then finally interference means youre deploying active measures as one kgb general i interviewed put it to me. This week on cbs National Security advisor Robert Obrien spoke about his recent discussion with russian officials in geneva and the message he delivered on the upcoming election. Let see what he says. I think our adversaries know the United States government is study at the teller and were protecting american people. With respect to russia and the elections one of the reasons is to let him know there would be no tolerance for any interference with our election day and voting and the vote tallies and demanded that russia not engage in that sort of thing but the russians have committed to doing so look, its russia so president reagan said and as President Trump often says its trust but verify. We will keep an eye on it but the russians did commit to not interfering with the elections but we will see what happens and that was the message we gave to the president and i got to deliver that in person to the general who is president putins right hand person. Host first i want you to react to what Robert Obrien said and then tell us what does the actual fact that they have to have this discussion say about what russia plans to do in the upcoming election. Guest sure, its nice for russia to say they will not interfere in the 2020 election but the i problem is they are interfering in the 2020 election right now. The current fbi director has testified under oath that russia is very active and interfering in the selection and weve seen strands of its operation unfolding already across social media about voter fraud and vectors of this ongoing efforts to influence this election. On one hand russia denied interfering with the 2020, 2016 election in russia is denying interfering in the 2016 election and they denied in the 1950s election and thats when they were confronted by an a administration before the november election and on the one hand i would not pay too much heed to russias denial because they dont actually bear out by the facts but on the other hand i think that its a fine message to send and there is no downside to say dont interact in our election and i wish the president would communicate that message directly to the russian president rather than either say it does not exist or actually solicit help from russia as he did before the 2016 election in asking for them to help start an email. On the one hand helpful message on the other hand but lets be clear eyed and recognize that russia is interfering in the 2020 election right now and while mr. Obrien seems to be talking just about russia will manipulate vote tallies as i said the electoral interference can include manipulating people or manipulating actual votes and to defend election against threats. Host i know your focus is on russia but are there other countries of concern like chinac like iran or what is going on with those countries . Guest i would say that to date the history of covert electoral interference has primarily been russian tradition and a soviet tradition and secondarily an american tradition. I would say beyond that no country has been on the game to date and a really systemic and continuous sustained way. With that said russias 2016 operation became so highprofile and drew somewhat intended that i do wonder if that could be a turning point in terms of other states seeking to imitate russia. While it would not expect china or iran to be the pioneer here because that would neither be justified by their history or evenei by their current objectis but i would say that they probably arent making some calculation about whether to try oto follow the lead of russia. However, i would also make the point that this is a global problem and so russia is interfering in elections on a global basis because russia has a global strategy to do so which is to support authoritarian mind of disrupted candidates who undermine their democratic system and i interviewed the president of montenegro who tried to assassinate the former president of columbia who said his social media environment is overseas or got reports of such high russian actors and so on the one hand russia has a globaa basis for doing this but stacked that up against china or iran who would need a global reason to interfere in elections on a global basis and based on their foreign policies i do not believe they do and so you may see them interfering in specific elections for china into taiwan or australia but again i would expect russia to be at the front of the line here in terms of its aggressiveness in seeking to manipulate our electoral processes. Host before we let our viewers join this conversation we talk about the problem and lets talk about solutions. In a video released by the fbi several agencies spoke about Election Security efforts, including the head of the Cyber Security and infrastructure security agency. Heres a portion. [inaudible] you might be wondering whether the 2020 elections will be secure. Im here today to tell you that my confidence in the security of your vote has never been higher. That is because of an alternation unprecedented Election Security effort over the last several years. We are focused on securing our nations Critical Infrastructure and thetu essential services tht underpin our society. That is clearly including [inaudible]. Since 2017 weve been working with states and local Election Officials and the folks of one our elections. First, we pulled together the Election Community across all 50 states with territories in dc to work toward a common purpose of protecting 2020. Second, we help make the election systems across the country secure and resilient as possible. Third, we work to increase the voting processes, including the vote itself. This year more than 92 of the votes cast will have [inaudible] and thats a great thing because Election Officials can check the receipts and make sure the account is right. F host how much more prepared is the u. S. To fight against ans type of foreign interference in this upcoming election . Guest i would say again lets draw an important distinction. That video by the way i watch that when it came out and was very helpful. I would say the first type of interference is to influence voters to spread emails or disinformation across social media to manipulate Public Opinion and he was not talking about that at all. What he was talking about was very specific form of interference which is reaching and manipulating our actual election infrastructure and it makes sense that that is not only because of his job but because of the where we were four years ago. Whereas, i reveal in my book i interviewed 26 former adviserss to president obama and what i found is that the imperative and activation was that second type of interference and was that russia was going to affect our systems for john brennan for instance told me that russia had the capability to alter the voter data on actual vote date as of our u. S. Citizens to the point where on election day itself i discovered that the white house and dhs were running secret racing for russian Cyber Attacks against our election infrastructure. I would say that in that aftermath even though no such attacks manifested itself i think at the bare minimum we need to be securing our infrastructure and im glad that the focus and the challenge of that is the space and localities have the final say over what alelection systems they are running but im glad that the dhs, fbi and whomever else are seeking to assist those in securing those systems because i worry as someone else in that video that foreign actors are seeking to gain access to our elected infrastructure so we have to be determined and resolute in defending both our systems and against efforts to affect our information environment over the next several weeks. Host lets go to our colors and let them join the conversation print lets start with and calling from northville, california. Republican line. A nn, good morning. Caller thank you for taking my call. First of all, i want to say or ask you you say russia. Okay. Well, i dont think its putin interfering in the election but i think its your claim that is more interfering in our elections. I really believe in 2016 that they were interfering and theyri wanted hillary because there were incidences in new york and this lady kept voting for trump and it kept coming up hillary. She, you know, there is so much voter fraud on the democrat side and its pathetic. I wont even tell you the story but anyway my thing is if they do or are interfering and i think its ukraine, not so much moscow or that but i think its ukraine and i think biden and his son and they have a lot to do with it. Their dealings with ukraine and we need to get trump back and i cant stress this enough. Host go ahead and answer, david. Guest thank you very much question. I would say that its very important to correct but t unfortunately the myth that ukraine was the perpetrator here. I think that the problem that we have as a democracy is that before youre able to defend your election you have to go into thehe backyard. I think we can all agree on that. The facts of an established at least for 2016 that russia, by the order of Vladimir Putin, based on the consensus of our u. S. Intelligence community did interfere in the 2016 election in order to help donald trump burn Hillary Clinton and to mass with american democracy. To do so russia spread propaganda across social media through an organization known as the Internet Research agency which is based in st. Petersburg and reached over 100 million americans online print Russian Military intelligence as an Agency Notice the ga are you hacked emails from the Democratic National committee and to john podesta and military intelligence must be probed and penetrated our election systems and so those are the facts. We can talk about it and we should talk about how to defend against efforts by not only russia but by any country interfering covertly in ourov election moving forward whether it be a democrat or republican, it doesnt matter but we should be as resolute in defending against those operations because were seeking to defend our democracy but to do so we have to learn from the russian efforts four years ago was based on reports of been released by the senate and by them mother investigation, the u. S. Intelligence community it is not only determined but actually if you go through the weeds of the document there are extraordinary publicly Available Evidence as to what exactly happened and what we can learn from it. One of our social media followers has another question for you, david. They want to know generally do you believe that russian interference is solicited by american politicians . Guest so, i would say that actually the tradition of american politics at the president ial level before 2016 was the opposite where in 1960, for instance, soviet ambassador on instruction from the leader of the soviet union itself approached Adlai Stevenson who was a leading democratic politician of the day and offered in a closeddoor meeting to help him win the presidency. Stevenson, more or less said, get the hell away for me and i want nothing to do with this. The idea being he would rather lose if he ran on his own thing when with foreign help. The same story in 196 to eight, soviet ambassador on orders from moscow by his own recollection in his memoirs revealed that he approached Hubert Humphrey who was the sitting Vice President at the time tried to offer to fund his campaign for the presidency to work against richard nixon. Hubert humphrey then said or pivoted the conversation and wanted nothing to do with it. And so i hope that that tradition will resurface because i believe that american politicians, if you are democrat or republican it doesnt matter, you believe in the sovereignty of our democracy then used also believe in the independence of our elections and he should have no business soliciting from any foreign actor, covert assistance in our electoral processes because something that really became support around here in my research is the soviet union interfered in the 1968, elections to destroy richard nixon. Of the publican appeared in the 76 and 84 elections to destroy ronald reagan. He republican. It so happens that right now russia does want to help a republican but what russia is after is teachers are leaders for us and sabotage our democracy and undermined the viability hub the democratic models as a viable model of government and that is should offend an alarm all americans. Host you said in an interview this year that the idea of interference is not just changing ballots but to delegitimize the entire process and i will read your quote to you and talk more about that. Recently ready for there to be some sort of plan to degrade, disrupt our democracy by delegitimizing the outcome of the election because what putin is after here is chaos and dysfunction and corrupting democracy. Trump is a means to that end but there are other ways of achieving it and one of which is just making americans wonder whether their election was fair at all talk about that. Guest so, i agree with myself. [laughter] i would say the russian objective here you have to look globally because donald trump can be distracting in our current politics can be distracting. Lets think about what their strategy is overall which is to support candidates on the left or right who will help them to tear down democratic systems, corrupt democratic systems from within and to discredit, delegitimize and ultimatelymo degrade the democratic model. Vladimir putin believes that serves his strategic objective from domestically and shows hisw own people that the democratic model is flawed, unenviable and not desirable that they dont really want that. From a global perspective it divides the democracy from within and one another and pulls them away from the International Institution that have typically underpinned American Power in the world and by targeting america itself by delegitimizing our democracy it shows the world how vulnerable the worlds mosth powerful democracies subversion and it makes us more divided and it undermines our ability to lead abroad. Vladimir putin identifies many benefits to this strategy and is acute in the aggressively and i would remind folks that someone i discovered in my research for instance is that russia startedn its interference operation against us in 2014 before donald trump had announced his campaign in russia intended to continue its interference operation hadts donald trump lost in 2016 if john brennan was quote, rig. This is not just donald trump but the right of russian will persist after donald trump and it is on us to defend our democracy regardless of who the beneficiaries of these operations might be. Host lets talk to james calling from charlotte, North Carolina on the democratic line. James, good morning. Caller good morning, david. The thing that gets me is a lot of people immigrant or republican but mostly republican dont understand that all this wealth that we have is based on us being able to project democracy throughout the world. This system of states that we have now we constructed it after world war ii. R and now, we have people, it used to be that the politics stopped at the border. Now we have politicians that will collaborate with our enemies just to gain power here. Just like the lady said, you claim that ukraine was the adversary but number one, we got to determine what is the truth but we got to stop playing these games before we destroyyi ourselves. If people dont understand thats our prosperity is based on how we project democracy and we keep letting them back in the 50s there was no way that it could have changed peoples mind about who they were going to vote for and who they werent going to vote for. The rest of us have done this for years. Ever since patriotism and not this i dont know what to call it but this, this, this camp in this camp and we dont care about patriotism but we just care about power. Host go ahead and respond, david. Guest thank you. On ukraine that is disinformation. There is no actual evidence that ukraine interfered in the 2016 election but in terms of your broader point around the issue of covert electoral interference and how vulnerable we are that it is absolutely right there because were so divided we are ourselves more exposed because something that history bears out. I spent half a day with a former kgb general who made very clear to me that when your democracy is already in turmoil are already has citizens at each others throat that is Fertile Ground for subversion and covert electoral interference becauserf if thats much easier to pour gasoline on fissures thatt already exist. Is moving forward to me in order to actually get at this threat, on the one hand you do have to go abroad and to seek to tact and deter these operations but we could work with our allies democracy to defend our sovereignty together and to punish those who would violate it but we also in conjunction with that need to be instituting reforms at home, domestic reforms, in order to renew our society toward being less vulnerable to this type of sabotage to get back to, as you said, a point where facts are uagreed upon where we are ableo collaborate on the key issues of the day regardless of whatever part you belong to and to do so at the bare minimum we need to secure our infrastructure and we need to mitigate the effectiveness of hack and release operations of social media applicant and the but we also need to restore things like local media and education that provide people with that basis of knowledge and with that sheer understanding of the facts of the day. We also need to urge our lawmakers to do their jobs and pass legislation, whether it be around healthcare or if a structure or basic ideas that make it so that we are a better functioning democracy and so that as we become more punctuale we become less vulnerable to manipulation because facts arent up for debate and polarization is not so intense and the distrust is not so pervasive. As long as we keep traveling that road where no one can agree on things depending on your partys association or where americans live in two separate realities you are right and we will remain as vulnerable as we have been to manipulation because we are sort of making ourselves an open target for this type of sabotage. Host david, i want to go back to something you mentioned earlier and get more into it. When we talk about double election interference he did point a finger at moscow but youve also talked about washington dc. I want to read a paragraph from your book and i want you to talk more about that. Every instance of covert electoral interference can be understood across two planes. One has to do with individual change with the intention of an operation is to promote a friendly candidate, defeat any unfunny candidate or no preference. The other has to do with symptomatic change, whether the intention of an operation is to strengthen, weaken or not at all impact the internal functions of a democracy. Washington and moscow are equivalent across the first plane. Were talking a lot about election interference from Foreign Countries in the United States. The United States has been known for doing the exact thing in the past. Correct . Guest what i established. Clearly in my book is that there is a history of not only soviet and now electoral interference but american electoral interference. As stated in that passage those are not equivalent and not only did they move away from the packet but because american believed they could achieve systemic change toward building up democracies through these types of operations t where sove and russian leaders have long believed that they could tear down democratic system through these operations but putting that aside i would say that my argument is that america has interviewed elections historically during the cold war and the soviet union did it throughout the cold war, russia is doing it globally today and i think that by studying that complete history and by drawing lessons from our own past as well as the past of other states we will have many possible and seeking to determine how to defend ourselves today. So moving forward i would leave it to readers to look at the past and decide okay, im reading about the operations of harry truman or Lyndon B Johnson so what i think of them. All the way to bill clinton who i interviewed about a covert electoral interference operation that he authorized so i leave it to readers to the merits of those decision but i argue in my conclusion that america should turn the page from the practice of covert electoral interference and that we should ban this practice explicitly because it neither aligns with our interest nor our values. To be interfering in election, covertly at a time when our elections are so exposedso and where we are seeking to stand up for free and Fair Elections and where we should be seeking to rally the democracy of the world against this practice we would just be playing ourselves, so to speak and undermining ourselves if we were to get down in the mud and engage in this practice today. Ive been moving forward and this should be selling part of the history books and not our modern discussions bottom eric and foreign policy. Host another question from the social media follower paradigm seen several versions of this question pop up. Where do place the information being declassified reporting that Hillary Clintonfo contractd the initial story and youre sures john brennan it for three years knowing that it was, in part, made up for democratic parties political reasons. Guest cia, nsa, heads of, those agencies reportedly did not want that information release because it has been alleged to be disinformation, falsey information planted by russian intelligence and so if i were readers or viewers taking that information i would view it through the lens of those disinformation and i would also it has not been determined to be true at all as stated in the. Initial letter about it. I would also recall that thereo will be efforts to distract from those underlying facts. Those underlining faqs being that russia interfered in the 2016 election and so those efforts to distract such as i believe this partial declassification to not let us forget that the Broader Mission here is to defend our elections and that russia did enact a sweeping and systemic effort to manipulate us in 2016 the russia is according to the director of the fbi very actively interfering in the selection right now and so the imperative is to defend against those operations and i wish that the sort of partisan sniping or use of partial declassification authorities toon score political points were and not a part of our discourse a few weeks out of an election where the goal should be the only goal should be to ensure we can have an election free of foreign influence. Host lets go back to phone lines. We live washington journal host tim, good morning. Caller good morning. My main question is why did the cia start up Radio Free Europe . The whole idea was to undermine the communist government and the soviet union was germany, ukraine, czechoslovakia and russia but now that union is broken and its down to russia. They are using our playbook against us on the internet and its the same thing only they are using the internet and we use the radio for europe. Host go ahead and respond, david. Guest thank you, tim. The goal of what russia is seeking to do as you said is to open eyes vulnerable information platforms and that used to be newspapers, tv and Radio Station and as you said some pain american as well. But now a social media now its emails and trying to infect Digital Information environments because not only are americans increasingly reliant on those platforms but back what is uniquely vulnerable to an ablation because a generation ago to get inside a newspaper for instance who typically had to recruit an asset or had a journalist in there who was a green to publish articles that might have been implanted or helped to be concocted by another person or another for an Intelligent Service where as the social media you can be sitting in moscow and you can create personas purporting to be americans and then you can use those personas to amplify content and to spread content across dialogue in the United States so theres no need for a third party. The fame goes with email software you can just hack into steel documents and then you can have a third party to amplify them in a wide reaching way but i can agree completely the internet open up new opportunities for influence and is something that we at the democracy need to get our heads around seeking to determine okay, how can we use this new information as a part of our lives and will remain so while also seeking to do as well as possible in our own sovereignty in this new digital world. Lets talk to victor calling from birmingham, alabama on the democratic line. Victor, good morning. Caller yes, i have a question for mr. David. Host go ahead, victor. Caller i just need to know if host victor are you there . Caller yes. I had to turn my tv down. Can you hear me now . s we want yes, we can. Go ahead. Caller i just wanted to know if weve gone through these changes then why not, why is he still the president [inaudible] host go ahead and answer, david. Guest i had a little trouble understanding so could you make out what the question was. Host he wanted to know whether there was so interference why didnt the impeachment count. I guess was trying to place the impeachment with election interference. Guest sure, i would say that what the impeachment was was related here which was the president of the United States soliciting privately action by a Foreign Government that would undermine one of his political rivals, joe biden who now has turned out to be the democratic nominee for president. I think that is something that president should not do and i think that it undermines our sovereignty and i think that it went against what it means to be the leader of the sovereign state but it was the detriment of the scented that that was not an offense that was worthy and a removal from office. He wasnt impeached but he was not removed from office. Those are the facts of what happened. I would say that moving forward i hope that president s will no longer, whether it be 21, 25 the next u. S. President will not solicit help from china or ukraine or russia or from whoever but rather will win or lose domestic elections based on domestic factors because that is the compact, i believe since you need to be a leader of democracy and something i found in detail as in many cases in my book is that democracy die as corrupt and versions of themselves as no longer independent versions of themselves and we need to make sure we maintain our independence and we also need to get back to in 1888 there was a scandal involving allegations of foreign interference. Based on the whims and wishes rather than that of the american people. Host does mail voting impact russias ability . Guest i would say no no and that mail in ballots are not susceptible and alteration by foreign powers. The use Intelligence Community has been clear on that. Theres record. They are more secure than internet connected system. In that sense its all for the good. I would say it does open up new opportunities for interference because of the immense out that exists around mailin voting. A sudden one survey i just saw only 31 of americans are very confident that the mailin ballots will be counted accurately. That is an astoundingly low number and an astoundingly significant opportunity for russia whose objective is to delegitimize our democratic model to, in fact, so doubt about getting sick of our democratic process. Recent reports russia spreading disinformation about voter fraud amplifying allegations coming from the the president that man ballots will lead to a rigged election and i would expect moving forward russia will continue to take advantage of mailin voting to so that type of chaos whether it be by spreading more disinformation or whether it be by seeking to sabotage specific systems as was four years ago as a midget in the Obama White House in order to make americans wonder weight, can i trust this election . Does this outcome really reflect the wishes of the people . My advisor to voters is to recognize that the objective of our adversaries is is so that chaos to a alarm, frighten. What we should be doing the citizens is voting but resisting that urge to be alarmed, resisting the notion that the sky is falling because russias moves most likely will be designed to make us feel that way when the reality is that the election is conducting itself fine and will pursue decision from a foreign interference standpoint. I would say thats a whole nother question from a domestic standpoint the base of your question regarding foreign interference i think there should should be worries about actual alterations but the response tends to make a stake that type of voting is insecure. Host lets talk to hendry was calling from michigan of the democratic aligned. Henry, good morning, good morning. You opened up your presentation by talking about what is a president or historic in russian voting interference and then you talked about whats new in the interference. I wonder if you could explain to the audience one new factor that you didnt mention which is how the russians ever had a president who amplified their misinformation by conferring with Vladimir Putin on strategy, and a Republican Party that is engaging in voter suppression, and trying to subvert the democratic process . Host respond quicker before you run out of time. Guest i was talking more early of a systemic factors that made us more vulnerable to foreign interference but i would say specific action by this president have made us more vulnerable to foreign interference. He has but allegations of a rigged vote was pleasant to the russian objective of tearing down american democracy and so russias and find that messaging reaching the cycle. Questions the middle of his opponent. Russias amplified that messaging picky is asked russia openly to involve itself in our election four years ago. He as privately ukraine and china to involve themselves or take actions that would influence the 2020 election. I agree none of those actions are in i think theyre not in line with that history i mentioned around past american president ial candidates or leading politicians, and i think moving forward that is a practice that hopefully our country can move away from and get back at that idea that our electors is paramount in the political future of individuals do not overwhelm or should not rank above that it it just election independent and so thats where i fall i guess in that view. In my book idq in the 13th chapter have various advisers in the Trump Administration, to be clear, the security chiefs are seeking to secure our election, our institutions and our government you want whether at the fbi, dod are trying to deter adversaries and shore up our systems. But as advisor to say readily n the book, that is not necessarily in line with where the the president is at at a fact often come into conflict with regards to the objectives of those agencies versus the objectives or policy priorities of the west wing. Host we would like to thank david shimer author of rigged for being with us here this morning and talking us do this. Thank you so much for your time. Guest thank you very much for have me. We are joined next by the chief washington correspondent for Kaiser Health news and we will dive right into it, julie come with a headline this morning from washington times, democrats fear for obamacare. Senators turn hearing into healthcare long referendum. It really was delighted focus. Not surprisingly yesterday that tell us about what theyre looking forward to perhaps not looking forward to in some regard in terms of the case to come before the Supreme Court the week after the election. Guest thats right. I think the democrats did not plan it this way but it is at least playing into their Campaign Theme for this year. In 2018 they ran on the republican efforts to undo the Affordable Care act and the democrats did very well in 2018. Now we have this court case that was filed in early 2018 parley with the intent to gin up republican votes. This was a number of republican attorneys general from about 20 states who charge charged thate its way 17 tax bill passed by republicans in congress eliminated the penalty for not having insurance, the most unpopular piece of the Affordable Care act that said if you dont have insurance you have to pay a tax penalty. They zeroed that out for conficker procedure reasons they could make it go away but they set the penalty to zero. Now with the law says is you have to have Health Insurance or pay a penalty of zero dollars. The republican attorneys general argued because in 2012 when the Supreme Court upheld the law they didnt based on carcasses use of a taxing power. Is there was no tax anymore and are still taxing more there for the rest of the law is unconstitutional and must fall. A Federal District court judge in texas agreed with them in december of 2018 and then an Appeals Court sort of agreed with that but they sent the case back to the lower court judge to say really just does a whole lot to go with the tax or maybe just the things that are connected directly to that tax penalty . Rather than wait another year or so for the lower court judge to make his decision in the Appeals Court to make yet another decision democratic attorney general who are defending the law appeal to the Supreme Court. They wanted this case settled this past spring. This was back in the winter that they appealed to the Supreme Court. They hope the court would take it up and resolve this past june. Instead, the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case but they greeted here in the term that started just a couple of weeks ago and debate the into the setting for the arguments is november ten, a week after the election. Host when the court take this up, a lot of the people have written they may not come there likely not to declare it unconstitutional but they could mortally wound it by invalidating the mandate, correct . Guest they could do a couple of things. They could do what the Trump Administration was first arguing which is saying okay, the mandate is holocaust issue so it doesnt have a tax penalty attached to it, but the things that are immediately connected to that and those include the very popular things like requiring insurers for people with preexisting and not charge them more. I would be rather unpopular. It is possible they would say the whole law has to fall even though its an enormous law and most of it is completely unconnected to the penalty for having insurance. Or they could say, what many academics of both sides sides e Affordable Care act think, which is that this is not a very strong lawsuit and they could make enticing away. Which was what the democratic attorneys general had in mind when asked the Supreme Court to weigh in early on this case. At that point it was four liberals and chief Justice Roberts who, what, why spoke to uphold the Affordable Care act so there was every sort of confidence the four liberals and chief justice which make five and it did met with the other conservatives wanted to do it judge merrick judge bear it becomes just a spirit and is on the court and heres a case then it wont matter what witnesses of have to matter what the chief justice is because there will only be three liberals left and the five conservatives can determine what happens. Host julie rovner is with us. We would love to your comments and questions. If you are the Affordable Care act that line is you wrote this piece before the announcement of the nomination of judge julie rovner. Shes been on the bench seventh circuit three years. That and what else do we know about the buildings and her decisions on Womens Health care, the affordable act, reproductive rights . Guest we know shes been something of an antiabortion activist and thats likely to come up in the question today and tomorrow because even more than having written that she doesnt believe in abortion and she doesnt believe that roe v. Wade was decided correctly, she has been part of advocacy efforts which is unusual for someone being considered to be a justice. On health care she has written that she thought chief Justice Roberts stretched the reasoning too far individual 2012 case that upheld the Affordable Care act. We dont know how shes going to rule and it is pretty safe to say shes likely to say how would rule because senators always ask prospective justices and they do not answer because thats part of how this is done. There is reason if you are supportive of womens productive rights and your supportive of the Affordable Care act theres reason for concern. The other thing, the converse we know which is the president promised when he was running the first time that he would only appoint justices who are committed to overturning roe v. Wade. One would assume the president would not appointed somebody he was not confident would be an antiabortion vote. I should point out that pretty much been true of the previous justices. Host we have the ac ak should mention, talked about her to curtail. What about abortion cases . Are the any kind on the courts docket this term . Guest are. Were waiting on mississippi abortion case, a 15 week band. Supreme court has been making abortion cases go away the last couple of months. They did decide a big case in june in louisiana. Louisiana case was similar to a texas case that had have been k down a few years ago and the chief justice joined the liberals to many peoples surprise, but he said basically that we are going to strike on this one because its entirely too close to the law when whics struck down four years ago but that doesnt mean that i chief Justice Roberts will necessarily go along with this with other restrictions. He both displease the antiabortion forces i striking down the louisiana law but he wore that it is not he has gone soft, and now supports abortion rights. Its that there were some technicalities to that case that made him rule the way he did. He was pretty clear about that in his decision. We have a variety of Reproductive Health cases that are in the pipeline if you will. The outlines that would clearly seek to have roe struck down, things that would not be allowed to stand without striking roe down like his heart beat band laws that would ban abortion either almost immediately upon discovering a woman was pregnant or before a woman even those would require striking down. Translator were to be a pill. Theyre a number of restrictions that could be upheld without striking down roe, things like bands and specific procedures. There are number of states that a been trying to ban the most common procedure used in second trimester abortion. There are what we call reason bans, a couple of states that have bans for in cases where the fetuses found rather down syndrome or they say because of gender, that some parents do not want to have a girl but they want to have a boy or the converse. Those have not been so far been allowed. Theyre not been found to be consistent with roe but a conservative antiabortion court could uphold those. Theres a number of ways these laws could be upheld without actually overturning roe. Host a question from bobby on twitter who asks how is the tax penalty high to the requirement that insurers cover people with preexisting conditions . Guest basically what the deal was when they passed the Affordable Care act is a told the Insurance Industry look if you will agree to take people with preexisting conditions and not charge them more, those of the people who most likely to one insurance, the reason in chairs have it is not because theyre me because they afraid they would go broke, i really get sick people, what Congress Said the deal is well have penalty to ensure the people signed up. Thats what the penalty was for. The penalty which is eight if you dont think you will be sick you still should buy Health Insurance. If you dont bite we will charge you this fine. As it turns out interestingly that is not the piece of the law that is having the effect of making people buy Health Insurance. It turns out theres another piece and thats subsidies that are in the law that people who dont put a lot of money can get a lot of financial help to pay for the insurance. Remember, the tax penalty has been gone since the beginning of 2019 so were almost two years into not having a penalty and despite that and despite the best efforts of the Trump Administration to discourage people from buying Affordable Care act insurance, the exchanges are doing so well that we are seeing more insurers come back in and start selling insurance on the exchanges. The law is standing surprisingly well without the tax penalty. But the argument is that because without the tax penalty, its not fair to the insurers because they would only get more sick people and that was the Trump Administrations original argument that you just have to strike the pieces that are so closely intertwined with that tax penalty. The Trump Administration i will point it changed its mind after the lower court ruled that the entire law had to go and decided to support that. Host how many people in the United States are covered under the aca . Guest everybody. The aca does a lot more than just offer people insurance. Theres roughly 20 Million People whose immediate coverage is tied to the aca. He either by their own insurance on the aca exchanges or they are in the expanded Medicaid Program that was also part of the aca. Everybody with employerprovided insurance is affected, but with medicare is affected comfortably with medicaid is affected. As an enormous amount of Public Health Committee Public publich provisions in the law. It is a huge wideranging law and literally every american is affected by some piece of it. Host lets hear from pam from bristol, tennessee. Good morning. Caller good morning. I really want to see this lady i know President Trump is using his constitutional rights. But my question is, obama and biden were the ones who created the cares act. And biden is sitting quiet. Biden is not even speaking out about it, and biden will not even give his nominees of whom he would pick for who he would not have picked. It doesnt make sense to me that the man who was in charge of this and got it approved under his administration with obama is stating client. And the democrats are up there going crazy. I want to rip this woman apart. Host julie rovner pacific on joe biden, white ac said about what he will do with the Affordable Care act in addition to preserving it . Guest i would say he talks about it almost every chance he gets. I cant remember a time i watch and speak in the last several months where he is not brought this up. This is a major piece of the biden campaign. Senator harris brings it up also. Its something that Vice President biden is very proud of. And, in fact, he has a rather lengthy proposal for what he would do if he was elected which to expand the Affordable Care act. It was not a perfect law. They knew would pass if not perfect law. It was difficult to get combat no republican support. They had to get all democrats to pass it and does a lot of compromising and a lot of trying to bring in under budget if you will and one of the ways they did that is the limited how much you can earn and still get help to buy your insurance here as result of that there a lot of people who still cant afford to buy insurance. One of the first things he would do is expand the subsidies, make people who arent just a little bit more money eligible to get government help health so theyn buy insurance. He has a number of other ways youd like to expand the Affordable Care act. He is also proposing a public option that would be a government run plan the people could buy instead of private insurance on the exchange or if the employer insurance that they do not like or cannot afford. They could buy the public option. That will be seriously controversial. There was an effort to do in the Affordable Care act if they could that get the vote. Its unclear whether they can get votes now but, of course, when he was running in the democratic primary, Vice President biden was derided for not supporting a more dramatic and more sweeping changes that medicare for all weather wouldnt would be any more private insurance and everybody would have a government plan. Theres a big chunk of the Democratic Party that still wants that but even though its popular among democrats, just getting some lesser part of that through was to be an uphill battle. Host if you get your insurance by your employer to find for you is heres ohio, and aca in enrollee. Go ahead. Caller good morning to you. I just got off work and i love your show. I watch it every day. But i like the lady that is speaking right here right now. And what i have seen, im a 54yearold man who has went through some things and some trials and tribulations in my life where i almost died because i had an ulcer. Well, im sorry, i dont like what trump is doing and im not a democrat or republican. Im independent but a dont like what he is doing. He lies about things he did. When you take away someones babies and your kids, you take away like, number one. Number two, what ive been seeing and what ive seen over the years is that nothing against republicans, and im not a a hater, but at the same time we have to take care of our people. Thats a given. Thats something that cannot be taken away from us. As far as that goes, i fake media taxes. I have done my do. I have served my country, and host brady, do you find that the Affordable Care act, your insurance under the aca, is affordable . Caller its very affordable. Granted i had to pay out of pocket. I pay 7000 out of pocket, no big deal. I make over 100,000 a year. But the way i i look at it, the way trump wanted it, he wanted it to either be antirich where you got the rich or the poor, and no middle class. Host we will let you go. Guest its interesting. A lot of people are very, very happy with their Affordable Care act, a lot of people are having trouble affording the outofpocket costs here indeed, the call is not atypical when he said yes to spend 7000 outofpocket before his insurance kicks in. Thats also in the biden plan, he would tie the coverage to the more comprehensive plan you can buy more of the comprehensive plan, gold, silver and bronze. It would be easier for people to make their outofpocket costs but outofpocket costs and Health Insurance are big problem that both parties recognize. President trump has been working or at least saying hes working very hard on Prescription Drug prices because thats something a lot of people see. Most people are not sick so most people dont always have a feel from which health costs until they really need it but a lot of people take Prescription Drugs and the go to the pharmacy counter and many see how much things cost. That is also a big issue. Its coverage and cost, and basically i spent my whole career watch politicians try to grapple with those two things at the same time. Host let me as to the potential Health Care Plan under a second Trump Administration. You and your colleague published this piece of it midseptember, rhombus is kept, trumps claims a monumental step still at it. Also this tweet from the president yesterday. Republicans will be providing far better healthcare than the democrat come democrats at far lower cost and will always protect people with preexisting conditions. Julie rovner, what we note that any potential republican or white house led Healthcare Plan . Guest not very much. The president did finally have a big and failing. He made speech in North Carolina of his american Healthcare Plan bring me your higher love good afternoon, broward county. Welcome to the call sector south was Focal Point Senior Center here in pembroke pines. My friends, i have been waiting for two years to be able to welcome someone who i know will be our next president of the United States, joe
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