Transcripts For CSPAN2 House Hearing On Voice Of America Under The Trump Administration 20240712

The committee on Foreign Affairs will come to other to order. That objection the chair is authorized to declare a recess for the committee of any point and all members will have five days to submit statements, extraneous materials. To insert something to the record please help your staff email the previously circulated address or Contact Committee staff. As a reminder to members staff and other physically present in this room for guidance on the office of attending physician masks must be worn at all times to during todays proceedings except when a member or witness is speaking. Please also sanitize your seating area. The chair have used these measures as a safety issue and therefore important matter of order and decorum is proceeding. For members participating remotely please keep your video function on at all times even when you are not recognized by the chair. Members are responsible for muting and on meeting themselves and please her memo to mooch yourself after you finished speaking. Consistent with House Resolution 965 and the accompanying regulation staff will only need to members and witnesses as appropriate when they arent under recognition to illuminate background noise. I see we have a quorum and i now recognize myself for opening remarks. The Committee Meets this morning to examine american and International Broadcasting efforts under the u. S. Agency for global media. For weeks we expected the opportunity to hear from and question u. S. Agm new ceo mr. Michael pack. Mr. Paks brief tenure has been a rocky and controversial one. He immediately removed voice of americas leadership as well as the president s radio for europe, Radio Liberty, radio for asia and middle east broadcasting network. Removing these experienced board from the services replace them with new boards consisting of himself his chief of staff and a number of Trump Administration political appointees and the senior counsel of organization for Southern Poverty Law Center and designated antitrust lgbt hate group. We tried to follow the acting ceo and board of the open Technology Fund but the Court Reserves the decision. He removed the standard editor from voice of america who meets sure the content meets the . Of independent journalism. He is trying to renew the visas for voice of america journalist who came to that United States to produce unbiased news and information. I want to emphasize this. U. S. Government asks these people to come work for us. Because of their expertise and language skills. To send new specs to countries where they are over threatened and some of these people are being forced to leave the country. It is shocking that the United States government would treat any journalist that way, let alone one we have asked to do the job. Mr. Pak cut funding for the open Technology Fund or otf and funding the [inaudible] to remind everyone of what they do they support development of the circumvention and communication tools so that journalists and citizens are better able to share news and information to countries with governments try to censor or stifle those things. Were talking about places like belarus, iran, china and venezuela. He is suspended a number of senior u. S. Ag officials and what i believe to be a rio tele tory and improper action. Three months ago i invited him to appear before this committee to answer questions and explain his alarming first few weeks on the job and on august 3 he made a commitment to appear here today let me repeat that. On august 3 his office made a commitment to appear here today and one week ago shortly after the committee noticed a hearing he was breaking his commitment and breaking his commitment. U. S. Agm refused to provide specific reasons stating only there were quote, administrative proceedings unquote. The committee has since learned that mr. Pack personally, excuse me, personally scheduled for today and a ministry that hearing for those people he suspended. He notified those individuals last thursday the same day u. S. Atm told the committee he was backing out of this hearing. My understanding is that under regulations and standard federal Agency Practice had agency shouldnt even be involved in such administration and the administrative hearings. They should be left to the severity professionals u. S. Agm proposed other dates in october and the house is in recess. It is my view that mr. Pack manufactured this conflict to get out of being here today. The committee issued a subpoena to compel his testimony with the chair as the witness mr. Pack is now in defiance of that subpoena. Our International Broadcasting efforts are a critical Foreign Policy tool in u. S. Agm constituent Services Provide highquality independent news and information and some of the most closed off places in the world and the best way to push back on the propaganda coming out of russia, china and elsewhere is to provide the truth plain and simple. We need competent leadership at the helm of those efforts and we need someone who understands journalism and expects journalists and someone who understands the head of the federal agency is accountable and that congress has the constitutional right to conduct oversight. We need someone who respects the law and allows our broadcasters to operate free from interference. Mr. Pack has made clear in his short tenure that he needs none of those qualifications. He is making a mockery of the u. S. Agency has long enjoyed strong bipartisan support and has shown tremendous disrespect for the committee, our committee, and its role overseeing the u. S. Agm. He is the wrong person for the job and he should resign and if he doesnt the president should fire him. But if mr. Pack wont talk to us but we will hear from those he is pushed out or try to push out. Confident Public Service and journalists because they were committed to doing their job well have no place in mr. Packs u. S. Agm. I will now yield to the Ranking Member for any opening comments he has. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I think to each of the witnesses who are appearing before us here today. U. S. Agency for global Media Mission is to further press and Internet Freedom around the world. Recently, i and many of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle have grown very concerned and the agencys mission is being undermined from the top. The most problematic to me has been what i can only characterize as the impoundments of funds meant for the open Technology Fund. Otf withstood up as independent last year and a bipartisan manner by congress. Yet, despite a track record of success in providing Internet Access another vital support to those in china, iran, russia and other authoritarian states ce pak has ignored the will of congress and withheld millions of dollars in funding from otf. This is not a typical dc policy discussion. I believe his actions damaged support during the height of unrest in hong kong and they are continuing to do so today in belarus. They are t of support to freedom and democracy movements is also regrettable because in my judgment, adroitly undermines key priorities of this administration that i have discussed at the very top leve levels. Not unfortunately its not the only concerning action. In some u. S. Agm has not been responsive to congress in many cases. We have asked the agency for their Strategic Response to the situation in belarus but have received no response. Our office and inquired about the return of Radio Free Europe hungary but received no response. Also after most of the front office was placed on an ministry to leave we simply asked for the names of those people who were heading the key offices at u. S. Agm but like so many of other questions questions this too is met with silence. We are separate and equal branch of government and mr. Chairman, this committee deserves the respect of a response. Make no mistake, i believe there are some reforms the need to be done at u. S. Agm and that to take place. Any questionable content such as a video which aired on voice of america to seemingly appear to endorse Vice President biden should also be thoroughly investigated but there is no place for this type of politics inside the u. S. Agm. But i dont think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I asked today once again for ceo pak to release the funding approved by congress under article one of the constitution and released the funding that was approved by congress for otf and to meaningfully engage with congress to provide answers to the basic questions we must ask as part of our oversight duties. Unfortunately, as mr. Pack has decided not to attend todays syrians despite a subpoena from this committee and from congress i hope that todays witnesses can provide us with details about what is going on at the u. S. Agm and in his absence. I believe mr. Chairman, this technology is so important in countries like russia, china, iran and north korea to communicate within the country inside and outside and people in the country communicate among themselves so that they can be in a position to yield back from their oppressors. Without this important tool that congress has authorized and funded we will have a very difficult time in this mission for greater democracy and freedom throughout the world. With that i yield back. I think my friend the Ranking Member and pursuant to notice the committee is convened today to conduct oversight of the u. S. Agency for global media and u. S. International broadcast efforts. As he decided to confide the duly authorized subpoena we will reset the witness table for our second panel. Our Witnesses Today mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman. I have a question. Why dont we leave the empty chair with his name on there to show the people that he just flew our subpoena . That is fine with me. Thank you. Thank you. s or Witnesses Today have played a variety of roles and u. S. Agm over the years and bring a wealth of experience on our International Broadcasting efforts. The backgrounds range from diplomacy to journalism and to policy and to Government Administration and what they have in common is that mr. Pack push them all out of their roles at u. S. Agm or tried to. In my view you have all served admirably and should be thanked for your hard work advancing u. S. Agm important mission. Ambassador is chair of the board of directors of the open Technology Fund and she also serves on the board of the other services until mr. Pack removed her in on the board of governo governors. She also served at that u. S. Ambassador to the organization for Economic Cooperation and development during the obama administration. Ambassador ryan crocker also sits on the board of the open Technology Fund and was previously a member of the other service boards. At the state Department Ambassador crocker was one of our most distinguished career diplomats serving as United States ambassador to afghanistan, iraq, pakistan, syria, kuwait and lebanon. I say that in the middle of the fight. Ms. Bennett is the former director of the voice of america were she served from 2016 until june of this year. She is a Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist who previously worked at bloomberg news, lexington herald in the air ogoni and in the wall street journal. Mr. Jaime fly is a former president of Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty and is now a senior fellow and Senior Advisor to the president at the chairman marshall fund. He proves he worked as the account for foreign and National Security affairs with senator rubio and served on the National Security Council Staff during the george w. Bush administration. Mr. Grant turner is a chief Financial Officer of the United States agency for global media and also serves as the interim ceo of the agency and fall of last year until june. He previously is serves as budget director for the Millennium Challenge Corporation and at the office of management and budget during the bush and obama administrations. Excuse me. Without objection your complete written testimony will be made part of the record of his hearing and i will recognize you for five minutes each to summary of your testimony. Mr. Turner we will begin with you. Thank you, chairman angle and Ranking Member mccaul and members of the committee. I testify today to disclose and if it concerns about the u. S. Agency for global media specifically related to the dire events that have been unfolding at the agency over the past few months. First let me start by telling you a little bit about myself and u. S. Agm. Ive been privileged to serve in the u. S. Federal Service Service as a career employee for 17 years and most of the last four at this agency in my tenure has spanned multiple president ial administrations and i began working for the federal government with gao and then i worked for omb for six years, three under president bush and three under president obama. I served as a budget director for the mcc and also for the cdc in atlanta, georgia. I have a lot of experience in Government Operations but nothing in my 17 years comes even close to the gross mismanagement and the abuse of authority and the violation of the law that has occurred since michael pak assumed the role of ceo at u. S. Agm in june of this year. Until i was abruptly removed by mr. Pack in midaugust i served as agencies chief Financial Officer for the ninemonth proceeding that i was acting ceo and based on my many interactions with this committee and your staff on a bipartisan basis i know you care very much about our mission to bring truthful news and information to our audiences overseas and i truly thank you for that years long partnership. Today u. S. Agm networks broadcast in six human languages to over 100 Countries Worldwide retain their and a 50 million, listeners and readers weekly. We include the voice of america, Radio Free Europe, radio for asia, middle east broadcasting network, office of cuba broadcasting and are numerous Technology Fund they are a gift from the record people to the world and we sometimes forget with r r much media environment the world is underserved. As one of my colleagues is fond of saying organization exports the First Amendment and is part of the foundation of our nation success. Im very proud to be associated with the 4000 employees that do the work at u. S. Agm and is a privilege to be associated with the journalists, editors, erection specialist, Technology Experts and support staff. They are very passionate about what they do. During the past four years the agency has made notable and important progress especially thanks to then put in support of this committee. So, thank you. Weve modernized the platforms that we broadcast on moving as media markets evolved and going to audiences want us to be from radio to tv to social media in a testament to how well the agency has performed in last several the last several years is borne out by numerous metrics. For instance, between the beginning of fy 2016 and now are global weekly audience has grown from 226 Million People a week to during a 50 Million People per week, 55 increase. Its a good example that we are responding effectively to fastmoving media markets and demonstration the people across the globe crave the truth. Our colleagues are journalists and the agency does not do propaganda and are chargers mandated that editorial decisions are made without outside influence and protected by what we call a firewall. That firewall is much more than an abstract concept but the law and been the law for over three decades. Her audiences live in spaces that our government spend propaganda and miss information in countries where there simply isnt any press and we fill that vacuum with journalism that aims to be the best in class. Unfortunately, i worry about what mr. Pack has done since his arrival. Like many of you im worried about the credibility and goodwill of our networks being destroyed and its taken literally decades to build this trust with your audience and tragically it can be destroyed far more quickly and that is what i fear is happening now. Im worried about a failure to support Important Technology tools developed by the open Technology Fund and ot funds internet firewall circumvention used by audiences in iran, china and russia and other closed societies to be the access the internet and are content. Within days of mr. Packs arrival he declared war on otf. First he started by firing its leadership and then choked off the funding and at one point after learning from otf that we might lose important tools i sent an urgent email to mr. Packs team essentially pleading for permission to release funds to otf and i highlighted what was at stake. In the case of iran we would risk losing 84 of the audience if we do not fund otfs tools but to put this in context, the Number One International broadcaster in iran and many people dont know this but we have nearly 25 of iranian adult jeanine into our coverage each week. Voice of america and rio for europes brand of the number one tv and radio broadcaster there. Here is a country where we worry about a war breaking out where the everyday and people are fed a steady diet of misinformation and half truths about america but every night a quarter million, quarter million remaining adults, a quarter rather of iranian adult tune into u. S. Agm from the studios that are two blocks from this room and the living rooms of the iranian people would bring unfiltered truthful news about america, or policies under countrys values. That is tremendous soft power and its unfortunately at grave risk right now. Otf is not the only example in the two and half months i worked under mr. Pack and he repeatedly breached the firewall designed to protect journalists and editors from political influence. Months ago he removed a standard editor Steve Springer from voice of america and he the executive editor from radio free asia and the person the leaves are overall china strategy at that network and it was mr. Pack was simon teasley fired the president of all our networks, including jamie fly who is testifying here today. Those actions and many others led the Senate Appropriators to put a hold on some of our funding. Mr. Pack chose to ignore that whole day placed underfunding. To be clear, mr. Packs failure to act in many areas are a concern of me and folks are testifying today and be employees of u. S. Agm and i think all of you and to close my remarks i would just like to quickly mention a few other things irresponsible acts, financial mismanagement that have taken hold under mr. Pack. For example, i found myself equally fielding calls from the leadership of our networks that are being starved of resources because his team would not disburse funds on a timely basis both Radio Free Europe and radio free asia contact if they did not receive funds as soon they would not meet payroll. This is no way to run a railroad and mr. Packs team refused to approve the simple cleaning contract for a shortwave facility in the middle of a pandemic and they refused for weeks on to prove a contract to order toilet paper for our transmitting facility that had nothing to do with shortages of toilet paper during the pandemic and with sources identified and his team just did not want to approve the order for weeks. I dont know why. Staff just brought in their own toilet paper from home. That unusual problem still exists when i left the agency and maybe it is still the case today but based on what i witnessed from small issues to very big ones i dont believe mr. Pack and his team came to run the agency and i dont think they even liked it. This just isnt what normal people do and it isnt what normal management looks like and certainly not in the world i come from and probably not in yours either. I fear there mismanagement will continue to erode the performance of the agency and with any misstep they will use that to fire more people and continue diminishing the agency. To close we need your help. You will hear from excellent people today and please continue to practice the strong oversight that you are doing. It is truly helpful and may stop slow the abuses that you are hearing about u. S. 80m is a valuable agency to help create the content in world most americans want to live in. I look forward to answering any of your questions later in the hearing. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for that testimony, very important and we appreciate it. Ambassador. Thank you. Thank you, chairman engel, Ranking Member maccoll and members of the community for holding this hearing and for receiving my testimony. I am privileged to serve as chair of the board of the directors of the open Technology Fund and i am here today representing that bipartisan experts board. Ive worked at the intersection of democracy, technology and independent media for many yea years, currently at the german marshall fund. Previously, i served as you mentioned as u. S. Ambassador to the organization of Economic Cooperation and development when i negotiate on behalf of the u. S. The first Global Internet policymaking principles. You invited me here today to discuss the challenges posed by the leadership to the open Technology Fund and thereby americas Internet Freedom efforts abroad. Otf is a bipartisan american Success Story and it is absolutely critical to u. S. Efforts to combat the rise of digital authoritarianism but unfortunately the agency has defunded and has now disparaging the small but crucial organization and undermining both u. S. Agm mission and the cause of Internet Freedom at a time when they are needed most. As you know the internet is a Vital Information lifeline for billions worldwide, including u. S. Agm audience of over three to 45 Million People. In addition, we fostered a Global Community of technologists, digital experts, journalists and human rights defenders. By connecting these groups and individuals, weve helped communities with thousands around the world. Research efforts funded by otf have been essential to exposing new threats in places like developing next Generation Solutions including for example ai power to circumvention techniques. A otf funded security audits that have exposed over 2,000 vulnerabilities and reports to these technologies into more than 200 languages. Through this rich strategy, otf has not only supported the development of the worlds leading technologies, but also an powered millions of peoples living in the countries to access content and other sources of independent news and information online. Both congress and the department of state have recognized otf is a critical bulwark against grudging digital authoritarianism. Yet in june, attempting to fire otf leadership and independent board of directors. That was thankfullwas thankfullc court of appeals. In addition, usagm representatives have a variety of accusations. The organization repeatedly refuted providing over 200 pages of information and documentation and offering undergoing additional independent financial audits, assessments or oig investigation. But they refused, making it clear that the goal was not to resolve evidencebased concerns, but rather to discredit otf. More devastating, the agency continues to withhold nearly 20 milligan and congressionally allocated funds, forcing otf to halt 49 out of its 60, or 80 , of its ongoing an internet freem programs. [inaudible] journalists, human rights defenders and activists around the World Without the tools they need. In just four months, the leading funder of otf has been dismantled and u. S. Internet freedoms and democracy efforts around the globe have crippled. Of the authoritarian regime has made it abundantly clear that they are willing to do what it takes to expand their control over the internet. Oppressive regimes are deploying a new generation of technology to track minorities and manipulate content online. And while these were once the tactics of rogue regimes, they are now Global Threats to governments around the world investing billions of dollars to censorship and Surveillance Systems each year. The United States has and should continue to confront these threats in an effort as democratic space for free expression. Instead, the recent actions have undermined the critical Foreign Policy and priorities. And imperiled the lives of journalists, activists and human rights defenders that are vulnerable around the world. The United States government can maintain its role as a Global Leader in Internet Freedom in this critical moment in history. It is urgent that it restores the funding and re commits to its important work. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your testimony. We now go to ms. Bennett. Chairman angle, Ranking Member mccaul, committee members, thank you. I am amanda bennett, former director of voice of america and i have the privilege of interacting with many of you on the committee on both sides of the aisle. I found you sometimes critical, sometimes complementary that always supportive and understanding of our mission. I am here because i care deeply about our countries institutions. Most importantly the institutions of free press and First Amendment. As a result of this ive come to care deeply about otf and its missions around the world. Although unlike some others here, ive not been involved in the usagm by departure, i welcome the opportunity to use my expertise and experience to talk about what i think is most important to the success of voa and usagm which is the legislative firewall that protects the journalist independence. And while i speak of the voa, the institutions for which i am most familiar, everything i say applies equally to usagm and the entities that operate under exactly the same legislation and practice. I believe my journalistic career sets me up perfectly to talk about this legislative separation. My career spans nearly 50 years. Although in private industry beginning as a student at princeton and i then spent 23 years in the wall street journal where i was the second aging correspondent. Ive held senior positions including at four other leading News Organizations. Im a twotime Pulitzer Prize recipient, and i served for nearly a decade on the boards most prizes therefore i think i can say that i have wide experience regarding the u. S. Agency for the local media calls the highest standards of professional journalism. Voa is americas Largest International broadcaster. 100 governmentfunded, but a bylabylaw operationally indepen. Voa news information by radio, television and digital and 47 languages and over 60 countries. In most of voas markets, voa is the only source of critical news. Journalism is at the heart of usagms mission, with the word journalism embedded for decades throughout the governing laws and regulations. Unlike other government messaging operations, we dont message. We provide useful, critical, and independent news information. The single most important sector in that effectiveness is the separation between news and any outside interference. At this separation is known in the formally as the firewall and its made up of over decades of laws, regulations and common practices. The very fact that our news has provided outside control of any party in power gives voa its own power and audiences around the world see and appreciate the credible information voa provides. Around the world with a survey as it enjoys 60 to 80 credibility ratings even as mr. Turner remarked, even in countries considered hostile to america. And this legal separation is the single most important thing that distinguishes governmentfunded independent news from the propaganda that many of our authoritarian regimes that we covered practice. Under the protection of the firewall, voa over the past four years refocused our mission to the free press of the world. It refocused on its charter mandate to represent all and not just some americans. It increased resources devoted not adjust to washington but to the center of the country. In telling americas story, voa reported proudly on the things and much of the world wants to know about. Technology, entrepreneurship, medical advances and Research Education philanthropy, while at the same time reporting unflinchingly on failings like School Shootings and racial tension. We also provided panels of Global Medical experts on covid19. Combating bias and a journalism is a critical task a and especially so in todays polarized environment. Voa might have training mandatory through regular communications be eliminated by the superiority. Voa was tough on ethics violations and internal corruption and inappropriate use of social media. Leaders were transparent and forthcoming in these matters, and outside of these actions immediately because they disclosed it immediately. In addition, voa extended its mission of bringing news information to those most isolated by launching broadcasting into refugee camps and dramatically increasing focus on women in the world. Also moved voa decisively into Digital Space where its audience attention was rapidly moving. More success in particular [inaudible] morale for which the agency had been criticized moved steadily during those years, with overall Employee Satisfaction jumping from 47 in 2016 to over 70 in 2020 using a survey that replicated the usual methods and questions. Proof that the power of the mission works. Morality improves when you treat people with respect, support a mission with the highest purpose, set up high ethical standards and enforce. People want an organization to perform the way that its intended to perform and to accomplish the mission. I want nothing but success for voa, all the entities and of the usagm. When the organization runs under the protection of this firewall and operates proudly, regardless of whatever party is in charge of the government, as has been the case for decades, it will be, yet, another testament to the strength and power of the institution and of the free press. I encourage everyone to, please, respect and strengthen, if possible, the firewall that makes this all possible. Thank you. Thank you very much, ms. Bennett. We now goes to mr. Frye. Hispanic chairman angle, Ranking Member mccaul, other members of the committee, i want to thank you for holding the hearing and inviting me to testify today. I am going to summarize. I first want to associate myself with the testimony of my colleagues. We all had a different vantage points during our time working together at usagm, but i share the concerns they had about the editorial independence of the networks and the journalists. Until june of this year, i was offered to serve as president and ceo of Radio Liberty congressionally funded a broadcastebroadcaster reaching n people, 23 countries and a 27 languages. Its also referred to as rfefl. We help hold governments accountable for their action. For my background i worked my entire career in National Security and Foreign Policy. I served in the office of sex security fence on the security staff for president george w. Bush and was an advisor for four years in the u. S. Senate and also during the 2016 campaign on Foreign Policy. In july 2019 the bipartisan usagm elected me to be rferl, president and ceo for the period of three years. I believe given the neutralitys information in our societies and its more important than ever we modernize for this new digital age as we know it is key to that success. While president of rferl i worked for the network to make it more effective in the challenges and when i arrived at the organization last summer i found the leadership turnover and chaos. Funding gaps were widespread and budgets with allowing competitors to put the network at a disadvantage. Of russia which is a significant competition across eurasia. We worked to make improvement that was fully supported by the organizations bipartisan work at the time that included the representative of the secretary of state, michael pompeo, and changes were supported by the usagm leadership, and i briefed these with members of congress and their staff, including after just ten months and a once in a sundrsentry pandemic that significantly impacted our operations, we were making progress. We increased our focus on the digital platforms that experience growth during the pandemic and we expanded investigative reporting and prioritized the professionalism and training and we increased the coverage of the radio and developed a tool to combat information. We were developing strategies to expand the audience despite coming under significant pressure from the kremlin and i also oversaw the preparations for the bureaus which culminated mexico and the launch of the new digital service. Finally, we worked to improve the security and the foreign governments to threaten. All of this work unexpectedly ended in mid june after the Senate Confirmed michael to the usagm executive officer. In the early hours of june 18th, i received an email informing without pause. This occurred without a single conversation between me, michael and the office which my understanding was the same case for the others. I know that rferl staff reacted with shock, frustration, anger and most concerning, uncertainty about the future. More than three months later, no successor has been named to replace me or my counterpart. Sadly, its baltimore chaos and uncertainty in the National Broadcasting and it cannot come at a worse time. To be blunt i feel we are falling behind our competitors in the information space. They for the agency oversees and it is irreparable. In my written testimony i outlined several reforms to the National Broadcasting so that the u. S. Can remain competitive and support independent media, strength and progress. Congress will need to increase funding with nonpartisan leadership of usagm. But even beyond that, more significant action will be required. For congress to pass a new International Broadcasting act that will clarify the roles and responsibilities of the networks and examine and question the american Foreign Policy in the foreign audiences which is the heart of the recent administration attacks on the agency. Second, part of the reforms that we urge, including rferl, even more independent of the u. S. Government. Despite the firewall, the independence continues to be threatened. If there independence in these networks is essential to their credibility for the audiences. Its what attracts listeners, readers and viewers of the content and allows them to take risks and to report the truth the politicization and underlining to these vital institutions thank you very much, mr. Frye. In bassett oinvestor crocker ist hes having some technology issues. So we are only going to hear his alteaudio. I now recognize you, ambassador crocker. Thank you very much, mr. Chernin, Ranking Member mccaul. I served on the board i served almost seven years from august, 2013 until june, 2020. During that period i was privileged to witness a complete makeover of the usagm program. It was as though a parttime board of governors was managing by remote it made no sense. One of the first steps we took you will recall both sides of the aisle explain the problem and who seek support for naming one. We got that support and hired and has now moved on to be the ceo. The next matter at hand was revitalizing the various entities under the aegis of the broadcasting work of governors. [inaudible] we were brought in to proceed with the hiring of other entity heads who heard from two of them. Amanda bennett and mr. Frye. Youve heard of their testimony and youve seen their biographies. These are the best of the best. We also hire alberto fernandez, a colleague of mine to run the broadcasting network. Among other things he was able to go on arabic language talk shows and go head to head. He could outthink them come out to talk them and when necessary with the priorities and u. S. National security. This is about the people, the people that run the is agency and the people that do the work as reporters. He described the impact that these changes have. The other point i would make is not just who was chosen but how they were chosen. In each case the board came together, republicans and democrats as an independent for unanimous vote pointing again to the agency leader. Now all of that is in jeopardy. The firewall in particular is a sensitive issue and i am very worried its going to destroy the whole image and i would say in this context simply i cant say it any better than what William Harlan said in that broadcast february 1942 speaking in german and aiming to capture the propaganda that, quote, a voice from america every day at this time we will bring you wite news of the war. It may be good and it may be b bad. That is what they have done ever since. A reputation for telling the truth has been a core element of our strength as a nation proving not only the value but also the National Security. Thank you. Thank you very much, ambassador. I will now recognize members of the committee for five minutes each pursuant to the rules into the purpose of questioning. Because of the hybrid virtual format of the hearing i will recognize members by committing his seniority alternating between democratic and republican. If you miss your turn, please let our staff know and we will come back to you. If you seek recognition, you must unmute your microphone and address the chair verbally. As we start questioning i will start recognizing myself. Mr. Turner, at the beginning of your testimony youve made clear how qualified and experienced you are. We are grateful for your years of service and i presume for much of that time you have held a security clearance; is that correct . That is correct. Thank you. Your testimony made clear that the following when he began a pattern of improper possibly illegal actions, you raised the alarm. Can you tell us a little bit more specifically about who you are notified and what their reactions were . Initially i didnt notify anyone outside of the agency. When a new agency joined, we assumed they were going to change things and they wanted to get an understanding of the organization that they were having. So my purpose was to assist in doing that and he initially put in place a freeze on contract actions and technical or it migrations which makes sense when you first take the seat to get a hold of an agency. But then a week goes by. I mentioned the calls an calls m getting other guarantees saying if you dont send us funding im not going to a be able to make payroll next week. Seeing lots of financial mismanagement from the reporters with firewall violations and being pushed one day to potentially commit and antideficiency act, i apologize or take credit for those in the room i realized i had to notify someone and i contacted the financial counterpart that works with us in the state Departments Office of the Inspector General. I made a disclosure to them and basically laid out and reached out to the Government Accountability office because they were working on an active review of governance and at the time i spoke with the Senate Appropriations committee and with our excellent counsel we disclosed what we have been seeing giving it some of this has come out in the press and its just a sad state of affai affairs. Its sad to see it like this. Other than the fact they didnt follow your advice, didnt you have any reason to believe the advisors were unhappy with you because of the concerns you had raised about financial mismanagement at the agency . I hav raised these issues wih them and said we cannot starve the organizations of resources. We have to provide funding they aralmost 100 funded by the american taxpayer. I raised issues we cannot lose and important tools such as those that are provided by our open Technology Fund guarantee. I told them we cant just move money around willynilly and if thethey wanted to do some of th. At one point that the they callk without my awareness with three and a half million from our guarantees and without the grant office being involved or executed outside of all of our internal controls, sending them an email after 4 p. M. Saying give 500,000 by 5 p. M. This is ridiculous kind of stuff so we are having people check delivery for 3. 5 million over the next couple of days and i am saying this is going to come back to haunt us and i know that that didnt endear me to the team he had assembled around him so i know that there are lots of reasons. Let me ask you some easy questions to answer. Do these include on or about august 12 . One of the things in his first week on the job he didnt reply to them and i got the message that he should work through the other folks around him. At the first time i met him was about two weeks before i was removed from my position and i met with him on two different occasions. Fairly close to the august 12th date that i was removed and certainly there were appointed exchanges shortly before he decided to remove me. When you were removed . Excuse me, mr. Chairman. Yes. Could you repeat the question. Zero, im sorry. Do you know if any of the others that were suspended offered counsel to that klaxon. They were kind of dismissed and pulled our security clearances for everyone, and said because you do not have the clearance and your job requires you to, you cant be in your job, so it was a pretty quick thing. I liken it a little bit to what we call our wednesday night massacre which was the First Physical day in the office. We were following the rules and making sure that we were in compliance with what this institution asks of us, and i think that was getting in their way. Has he scheduled any administrative proceedings, and if so, when are those scheduled for . Yes sir, he did. They were scheduled for today at the time of this committee hearing. A. When did you learn about those proceedings . It was within the past week. Do you believe your suspension was retaliatory in nature . I am pretty sure that it is. It sure feels like it. Ive been a Civil Servant who is worked hard for both sides of the aisle run by republicans and democrats. I was here to help and i think that he would have had a better chance at achieving some success. I dont think that he had that the strategy, but it certainly feels retaliatory and if that is the case that is with others removed as well. It is my view, tomac. I think it was retaliatory and you try to to do your job. You told them things they didnt want to hear including breaking the law and now they try to fire you i think it is outrageous. I want to thank you. It takes a lot of courage to do what you are doing today. You are a public servant. They would crumble and the gross mismanagement of people would wonder why we were not fulfilling our commitments. If it were not for people like you, the truth would never come to light with people in power that think that the rules do not apply to them. So i salute you, and i can assure you that this committee is going to have your back. I recognize the Ranking Member for five minutes. I would like to first before i begin my questions, entered into the record they honor double signed by several United States senators including marco rubio and susan collins. Without objection, so ordered. Expressing the concern that. Without objection. Thank you. For the last six months, voice of america took our covid19 report, which was almost like an indictment of the communist party that took place all based on truth. We translated thought and got it through and the report went viral because they need to know the truth about their government. This is a great example of what usagm can do it how we can penetrate through the firewall to talk to the people directly. It got the attention of the spokesman. There was an hour long propaganda Television Show and an hourlong special. One of the most valuable things we have in talk to people in iran, people in russia, north korea, so i see great value in this and i dont want to see it destroyed were reduced by 80 because 20 million appropriated has essentially been impounded. So, my question is this. Ambassador crocker, i have no greater respect for any ambassador more than him who serves in lebanon during the marines, the bombing in beirut and at the last ambassador from syria, pakistan, kuwait, iraq and afghanistan. They ask the question what did i do wrong. But he hawhat he has done such t job serving. Nobody knows this better than he does. So i would like to pose my question and if i could get ambassador crocker, ambassador kornbluh sometime to talk about just talk about the impact and actions of mr. Pack and this purging and basically i would say more aligned actions with congressional intent and appropriations. What impact is that having on our Foreign Policy . I dont think that the top of the state department, i wonder i would encourage the secretary to take a look at what is going on within his own department. This undermines the very things we are trying to achieve. The goal we talked about, i believe these actions undermine that. And finally, ambassador crocker, you say our reputation for telling the truth has been a core element of our strength as a nation and now it is in danger putting at risk not only the national values, but also our National Security. Ambassador crocker, i put a great value in those words from probably the most esteemed ambassador the United States has ever had. So, with fact, i would like for you and ambassador kornbluh to respond to that. Since you are here in person, it would be nice to hear you respond. Thank you for those kind words. I would stress again and politically independent that is as we continue to do so and i was an ambassador to six countries in my career and i served republican administrations for three of those terms and administrations for the other three. I do say with a total lack of modesty that i think i got a pretty good feel for what works and what doesnt. What we got right where the right people. We bipartisanship is increasingly in short supply. And i commend you mr. Charan and mr. Mccaul for giving that spirit alive. It is about telling the truth. Its not about the propaganda that is what we do in russia and china. Since 1942, our National Reputation has been reinforced by the activities and reporting. It started from day number one. We are putting at risk our leadership role in the world and we are effectively in the minds of so many. You refer to your report. Our strength is that we do tell the truth. When our listeners around the world paying attention because of our reputation of truth. When you take that away it becomes like our adversaries. Damage has been done there is no question about that. Our legitimacy and reputation has already been significantly undermined and when that happens, the rest of the initiatives are undermined. They know what the truth sounds like and who tells it it wasnt just on the boards that were dismissed. It was also a case of topnotch as mr. Turner represents the best in the business. What they do is a complete understanding of how this is important. What i regret the most is how they were treated and [inaudible] then we had with ms. Bennett, mr. Fry and their colleagues. And finally, if i could say a word [inaudible] deserve praise for what they d did. [inaudible] if you want, they are putting under fire [inaudible] as well as other appointments abroad for so long. Thank you, ambassador, and thank you for your service. With that, my time is expired. I would ask all of the witnesses to respond to my question in writing. And with that, i would yield back. Thank you, mr. Mccaul. The gentle man yields back. Mr. Sherman. To illustrate for the world our democracy and the rule of law that can work only if lawmakers are able to do their job. The refusal to be here demonstrates too many event eves depend on the Communications Efforts that at least in that instance our democracy is not working well. But this hearing illustrates also the opposite. We have issued a bipartisan subpoena and without objection, i would like to enter into the record the statement on this issue and the need for a subpoena. This can help us demonstrate that the rule of law does work and that its important for this committee to make sure that this matter doesnt drop and no matter which Administration Takes office in january. Then i thought there could be some extreme libertarian budgetcutting but the soft power of the United States cost almost nothing compared to the military forces and the servicemen and women. Then we discovered one ideological issue, and i focused, as the committee knows, on thcome on the broadcasting ad other Communications Efforts to pakistan. I have urged we have a service and they covered for a couple of minutes and appeal by biden to the voters which have some points should be balanced by the demonstration that both parties want the votes of every group of americans and that muslims and all the communities in the United States are a treasured part of the mosaic of the United States. The broadcasting efforts represents governmentfunded independent journalism. That is a tricky thing to do. Thats why we prohibit these organizations from communicating with the American People because they could be some effect on our elections. Now its possible that some American Voters saw this little clip of biden saying the democrats want muslim votes. And its possible they havent yet communicated that republicans want votes but we are all in the politics business. We will communicate with different ethnic groups. You can certainly influence more with a thousand dollars spent on media than you could with some obscure than just a minute or two broadcast of service. What particularly concerns me is the visas. We brought people here and asked them to be honest into discrete to the countries that we are speaking to work at least imprisoned. Then he denies the application, refuses which means they are subject to deportation to the very place we asked them to tell the truth to a country where the truth is illegal. I would like any of the witnesses, but particularly mr. Turner to comment are our lives in danger because of this is the freedom of the journalists endangered . One of the biggest worries of the people that have been removed and the folks that are appearing at this hearing today is the visa holders they are very specialized expertise. We see them here in the hallway. They are not interested and may be the only journalists and they are asking questions and saying things that might get them in trouble if they were back in their home countries. Mr. Park wants to send them there. It could be quite dangerous for many of them. Obviously in certain countries, russia, iran, vietnam, china many places around the world the broadcasting that they are doing for the United States is not welcome. They want to close off the media markets from the truth. These people are very passionate people. They come from these countries and often want to drive change in their countries. They want American Values and respect for human dignity, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and thats why they are Walking Around the halls sometimes when other folks have given up. They are difficult to recruit. Its hard to find these specific languages. Uncle sam brings them here, uses them to communicate our message back to their home countries and then deport them into the loving arms of the very dictators who were so opposed to the truth that we thought it was necessary to broadcast into their country. I believe my time is expired. I yelled back, but that is a crime. The potential imprisonment, even worse, is at risk for some of our journalists. We ought to be granting asylum and i will yield back. Thank you. Mr. Char man, i would like to express my appreciation to you and the Ranking Member mccaul for holding this hearing. Id like to express my appreciation to the leadership to the two of you and your introduction to the open Technology Authorization act, it was my pleasure to be the republican leader on that bill. The open Technology Fund is a vital part of the holding journalists and democracy activists around the world. I think it is as important as it is in that role and when it was used to restore. In listening to this hearing and trying to not place nefarious motives, i wish he was here to defend himself, because in his absence we speculate as to his motives and they just dont sound good. And i hope that eventually we understand what those are. Mr. Mccaul has talked about the role of the otf and i would like to point out two of the regions in the world and ask them specific questions. Perhaps you can help me. In belarus has there been a role and if so, how has that impacted thought and what obstacles are we encountering . Thank you very much for your question. I did want to start first by echoing what my colleague [inaudible] and expertise of the people intd the leaders that we have recruited and callout. I just admire their work very much. The projects for over five years and unfortunately due to the funding t of threes its been a force to issue the stop work orders to all of its projects. For the secure communications including sideline tour and signals and otf also provided Digital Security support and to develop peer to Peer Solutions to combat internet blackouts and monitoring tools to better understand the censorship in belarus. It shows that approach they take both focusing on the funding in the technology and the people and protecting them. Despite ongoing funding challenges, theyve continued to try to find ways to support journalists during this critical time and for example, after they announced that its blocked the websites, they worked quickly for several so that they could continue to access. It would be hard to imagine a better dollar for dollar investment for the results in these cases that weve mentioned. Quickly, before i run out of time, could you speak to the role Radio Free Europe and play in combating . Rferl plays an essential role which over a decade is an inspiration to the people and in moments like this when people are taking their future into their own hands and try to share information between whats going on in the streets and the crackdown and revealing the truth about the crackdown and then Networks Like these rely to help circumvent the distributi distribution. It has 24 7 tv network and collaboration [inaudible] in response to that, cracking down to support and despite that, they continue putting themselves and their families on the line covering a wide range of issues from the pandemic to politics and all of the services pushing back against efforts. Thank you. I am out of time and i will yield back the balance. Thank you. Thank you to the witnesses for being here and mr. Turner for your strength and courage to come before the committee. This Committee Works on a bipartisan basis. We funded you on a bipartisan basis. All of the people that you see around the room supported the efforts of that agency. And here you have them coming in and destroying some of the most important things that america can do. I came from a country that is repressive. I came from cuba. I know what the stories are that make it to the front page. The mafia along with senator menendez and front page of the cuban paper. We need to combat that. The agency that does that is the voice for america and the people that work there. So if you have somebody like this that senator menendez questioned his confirmation from the very beginning that he was not, it was someone that had qualifications to head of this agency, whose under investigation by the irs, it makes you wonder how these people get confirmed to lead an agency so important as this one. He is shouting down the newspapers. He is shutting down. Where the only people will be better to get the truth to those who the countries. Precious to other countries. Not to talk about russia or belarus or the other places that we have. I find a little bit conspicuous that we are destroying our efforts going into russia and to tell the truth to russian people. Because of the relationship our friends have. I wonder what goes on in those conversations that we dont get the transcript. Is as a result of that . And a people very concerned about the conversation the agency and thats a primary concern of this committee. As you point out, the values and the truth and Getting Better out there. Forcing the agency to stagnate. You mentioned cuba. In 2018 the country with the highest Internet Access in the world. You worked very hard to get their. Yes. There are opportunities now as in china and other markets around the world. This team is focused on a strategy or how to get the best bang for our buck will look at audiences and the platforms and how to engage the world with truthful information about our policies. Thats one of the biggest downsides in addition to a loss of credibility, we are losing time in a critical moment. I dont know how people can ignore that bothers me to no end. There should be consequences for the people who do not want to answer for their actions to the committee when we find them. It is that taxpayers money. You are entitled to know where the money goes and why they make the decisions that they make. We have to change the idea they can ignore a subpoena from the committee . My time is running out. Thank you for your courage to come here. Thank you congressman. Thank you mr. Chairman. I wouldnt know mr. Pack if he was standing in front of me this seems like a substantial hit job want to point out things that apparently will not be pointed out by anybody else here last in the former chief Strategy Officer for the Agency Working closely with the gm went to prison for stealing nearly 40000 during his tenure. In 2018 the reporter and the cameraman baked a mortar attack in nicaragua and in the fall 2018 employees after discovering they were accepting bribes of a nigerian official. What. And then citing concerns on chinas influence including and someone agencies like the idea way and the proclivity to plan reporters and their families. And that we love to hear that is going on and in 2018 the house Foreign Affairs committee, this committee, with these people us agm was a broken agency but according to what we hear today we should let ago former secretary clinton described it practically defunct in its capacity to tell the message around the world. And mr. Paquin to investigate the open Technology Fund at the dc location the film laptops and hard drives insecurity and boxes in the door connecting the open technology with others in the building not only a mocked the wideopen. We suspect the russians and chinese, iranians and from having any unread one interest finding i was in the computer. Trying to hack us agencies this discovery was not a great work. As someone whos been privileged and honored to have a top secret security clearance in the us military. Mr. Chairman i want to enter for the record a letter from mr. Pack who says the eight days within the month of september when they code up here. If you would. With no objection so ordered. This committee respects the importance of Media Freedom that is essential to a functioning society. We support protections for journalists and reporters. Highlighting the issues were shed light why mr. Pack was confirmed to the current will and the charge that is now before him to reform the agency. Lets start off with a new lease report from personnel and management detailing us agm voting practices. 1500 us agm employees and contractors between 2010 and 202040 percent of the agencys workforce were not properly vetted before being hired. I know, who should mr. Pack look to for accountable on accountability there . I know i think is the people running the agency according to real clear politics they cleared hundreds of contractors to work Us Government that they consider adversaries they maintain access to us agm broadcasting platforms and the it systems and senior government officials i wonder why this agency is incompetent and ineffective . I have no idea is reforms have undergone scrutiny as they should the us agm for voting procedures continue to threaten National Security and it is the fault of those who mismanaged the process whoever that is. Us agm and the state department has said it can be broken down into two parts approximately 25 percent spent on Technology Tools to break through barriers 25 percent and then he will conclude the other 75 percent is dedicated to conferences that resorts with generous salaries and projects already undertaken and other agencies. I know its going on but i really to blame everything be he should come in here we should work collaboratively instead of the roadshow circus going on right now in this committee i yield back. Mr. Pack had every opportunity to be here today and that himself and his actions he chose not to come and ignore the committee. In terms of what he proposed to come to us in those terms he said we did not accept that those proposed dates were in october when we were in recess. He could come today to defend himself or give a state it would have been happy to accommodate. Thank you mr. Chairman. There is a fallacy in the logic of my friends and there were a series of problems over the last ten or 20 years. Thats why we had to have a total purge in the programs that reach audiences with that democratic point of view in authoritarian societies that is false logic. You dont dismantle and purge the organization. That is were talking about. If they are justifiable i would assume mr. Pack word run, not walk to this hearing to defend his actions. His actions speak volumes but he doesnt believe in his own accountability to justify those as the active accountability and doesnt have the confidence of his own actions to come before the committee to justify that. I was told by your testimony because you we enumerated the consequences of the actions of the act on the wide swath of the world in terms of programs. Is that your view of what mr. Pack is doing is cleaning up problems of predecessors . And that the organization is complete with those who are partying on the taxpayer dime on their computers and to be ineffectual. Is that fair in your view . Thank you for giving me a chance to respond. I tend to be emotional about this because there are ten people may have voluntarily taken a pay cut because they care so much about the mission of human rights activist and paper around the world using their tools and services. I would love to submit for the record but needless to say i will the congressman has been misinformed. The security claims are just not true. We only information on hard drives. We dont use them. 90 percent of the funding is used for programming, technology. There are no 2 million in conferences may be people waiting numbers may be 200,000 for Civil Society groups nothing like 2 million and with the epidemic not at all. So those claims unfortunately are not true. So you did not spend 2 million on donald trump owned properties that maralago . [laughter] that was secret service. Sorry. Thank you. I ask a question . Going back to your testimony which was so compelling with the damage they have done and the opportunity cost that was selfinflicted but in criminal law one of the questions when investigators look at a crime is who benefits . When we look at what mr. Pack has done to this organization, who benefits . It seems to me deliberate or otherwise he is pandering to the chinese and russians and venezuelans but maybe that is just me. What do you think . I think unfortunately the actions taken against the open Technology Fund strengthens americas adversaries as authoritarians around the world by weakening a key element of america soft power. I want to give you an opportunity to respond as well if i have time. I want to give you an opportunity to respond as well if i have time they speeded up they can get a few words in. Im sorry. Thank you for your graciousness. I can give a quick response. It is true we had a chief Strategy Officer was travel we fired him we dont up with that there was a mortar attack that was edited there were investigated and those two people removal because they care about their credibility somebody left envelope said dignitary came to visit we cannot have the appearance there is any influence on the journalism so those people otf does not have hard drives it is a clubby system i dont know what was on the floor they are working from home because of the pandemic we have not used assume that gypsy is a product they ended which is secure. With the opm reports there were 37 i was in the report they delivered we have addressed more than half of those no evidence we should remove people from their jobs because there was not the and you in place that the reason they pointed to. Ultimately were not the National Security agency mr. Pack makes it seem like it is but you cannot log into any National Security database granted the building is full journalist writing down stories talking to newsmakers and congressmen like yourself i think it is a pretext in a good cover for taking the ball went actions. Your time is expired. Thank you mr. Chairman. Would like to deviate from the current conversation to talk about belarus. Cfo do you have a proposed plan Radio Free Europe to increase support to free belarus in light of those protests that elected . I recall that specifically it is an important country and Radio Free Europe folio. We give why discussion with you said budgetary resources so to me fight is the leader of the organization. Where is the money that is spent . I would defer to him on specific questions. Where is that ramp up so to speak and oddly enough i have heard about Radio Free Europe my whole life and then came out to Radio Free Europe we thought it was cool but didnt know what it was about. I see several people nodding but i would like to know that process im just curious how it works and what is the goal . Is it. Freedom . How does it work . How do you people to listen . It is amazing the Ranking Member talked about china and we saw the numbers in china showed up tremendously when the coronavirus broke out because people in wuhan know something that is happening in the government is not telling them what it is. They were flocking to radio free asia to find that truthful information. We saw that and i ran with the dire economic straits and the killing of the journalist qassem soleimani. Trying to search into an area and then to add additional hours of television or radio mostly people in studios and cameras involved and then to circle wagon and pull together the funding to provide that surge. We keep proximal a 1 percent of 1 million budget as an emergency fund. Get you without a crisis then it is spent on the normal things that we do. Its around 8 million. We need to have a discussion with Radio Free Europe in this case and then to dispatch that to him. Do we need Technology Support many places around the world it is providing support to protesters the hong kong protesters the identities for surveillance protesters in iran, the beirut so we would search finds on technology and broadcasting operation. Host what are your readings . How does that work . Some information is easier on digital and social media we get metrics whether youtube or facebook or twitter or instagram or a platform specific to a country we can get that digital information. Other times we have surveys sometimes it seems strange but gallup poll has like in iran. I heard a lot about that and i guess walking the streets of china there will be asking for his autograph. The power of the truth the report like that comes out it is a strong reaction from the ccp because they fear that kind of truth. The information we provide it is unvarnished truth. Nobody is speaking with my maniacs . We have radio free tennessee. Our audience is interested in america. When you are a cultural touchstone for the world. We want to know we were thinking about so a kid on the streets of knoxville if it were translated into mandarin kids in china are listening and kids in cuba are thinking. I went over been set for the record they probably need a translator members will attest they need one as well. Have gone over by east tennessee is the only place in america where people do not speak with an accent thank you. Let you speak longer because i love your accent so they can you i think thats cool. I representative from our lawn of where she gets a good and is a measure thats about but that is cool. Thank you the gentlest time is expired. Thank you very much mr. Chairman holding this critically important hearing today with a foothold witnesses for you sharing your experiences. I would like to spend the time i have focusing on the world of journalist in their efforts. Ms. Bennett i will direct my questions to you regarding your illustrious career as a dedicated and accomplished journalist. So can you explain the firewall why that is so independent to journalism . Yes. Thank you for asking that. Virtually every News Organization and the purpose of the firewall is to allow the journalist to operate independently without reference to any kind of pressure from those who provide the money from the circulation side want to cover the specific way that firewall is not call the fire on the private industry but very clearly it does exist i operate most of my career under that system the us agm it was codified and that meant the journalist makes a decision on what they cover where you cover and how you cover it what you discipline for what purpose or how to maintain critical standards that is all handled by the journalist without pressure to the outside because even the identical operation is different when done by a journalist who has no actual association with that argument then people have a connection with that. So the hallway journalist who are fired and forced to leave the country, can you speak to the possible scenarios when they return home . Im no longer others i cannot speak to specific things that are happening but one of the things we are acutely aware of with all journalist is the danger they face back home reporting that they do whether they are in or out of the country some of these are the bravest people i know you hear about courageous journalism i have said i didnt know what that meant until i came and watch the pressure financial pressure physical pressure and imprisonment repeatedly over my career at doa i had to deal with very difficult and dangerous situations now suddenly it could be a thing. A group of journalist had a letter to the acting director cormack the urge appears to be expanding us permanent residence and to express that being a journalist is a great cover for a spy. Given your experience in a successful journalist tell me why that is so dangerous but to truth and transparency that are critical cornerstones of democracy. That does speak for itself the fighting the perception that journalist are spies is one of the most critical especially when reporting from the danger zone my colleague had formally that ahead of radio free asia said you have to be careful that endangers the lives of journalists who operating in these countries is a critical and dangerous thing to do with mr. Turner explaining it very well part of the issue of the offending procedure is at the us agm was trying to use a more stringent voting procedure for those living in Foreign Countries we were trying to do more significant procedure that was the issue to make sure that reality and perception matched. Thank you very much and i joined with my colleagues and the regret and anger and those that are reckless and dangerous and to address our concerns i suspect not but i am grateful and to hear from them today. I yield back. Thank you mr. Chair holding the hearing this is so discouraging to see another part of the government to be so compromised i want to know if you occur describe to me what the problems are . Who ever would like to respond. I think maybe i should try. So that technology they do not appear to be satisfactory is not open Source Technology thats what i can say about it as a chair im not well to evaluate. I can say it is a tool to focus largely on china and it is an open source and to be subjected to a rigorous review and audit we have been unable to find the tool tf because they are not in compliance but obviously when you have these tools that people are risking their lives the government knows they are accessing our content or human rights activist or protester it is dangerous to them want them to know it is safe. We have other tools very effectively against china and that is the extent of my knowledge but im sure the agency could provide Additional Information and otf as well. Can you hear me . Please repeat. Who has been pushing government to support it . Maybe i did not hear if the connection has been dicey. I believe the organization has worked in the past with the foundation and i think represented them in some form but i dont know what more beyond that. Will be happy to submit more information for the record. As mr. Pack ever given any indication that he would try to push out those he did not consider . Anybody . Is it difficult to hear me . What is going on . We can hear you now. In my case there was no demand of loyalty because there was no conversation. With those of us at the network who removed very early the first day in the office he didnt have time to ask for loyalty. If i on not mistaken is not as though he advised anything was improper . No. The one conversation i had ten days later that i was removed without cause. I yield back mr. Chair. Thank you for calling the hearing mr. Chairman. Any of those i would want to respond as a and azerbaijan to have the trumped up charges that included the sent her to prison for seven years and while serving some of it. We had the Vice President into the chief programming Radio Free Europe come to testify on her behalf i introduced a bill the azerbaijan human rights act for those that were unfairly incarcerated on the trumped up charges and she pointed out how corrupt they were and was partially punished for that. Fastforward to belarus and what is happening there, many of us have spoken out repeatedly for decades against those is possible because the last dictator of europe and now we have pretend but that problem is he is a charmer although he is harsh. Look like he was getting some traction with europe and ourselves. He let out most of that Political Prisoners but that crackdown in the treatment of the opposition calls out again to be in solidarity with democrats seeking a better life. Where are we and azerbaijan is a this hearing specifically are the plans to ratchet up the effort even more so belarus . Obviously the media is totally controlled. Our team is running the media as the other operatives from the kremlin. Not the replaced is any better bad it is a monopoly. The message to look at this dangerous Misinformation Campaign is to ratchet up the efforts. Thank you for those questions. And with other members as well. With azerbaijan we have a Strong Service and with that investigative reporting, we operate to provide a key service. The pressure happened well before my tenure and then to help lubrizol working with members of congress and the department of state on her behalf. Fortunately she is still facing a travel ban although not in prison anymore they cannot travel internationally what she was trying to do prior to the pandemic that government was talking about earlier having a Strong Service for decades this is the moment to cover the protest some of my colleagues tell me the general have spent 125 days behind bars on the pain and postelection so they are out there on the streets putting themselves at risk so they were normally left to us agm for Research Support with the radio airwaves and that this has gone upon radio again with this crisis to pay for the pocket with us agm support and the state department when they are picked up and attained and those going on in belarus they were expelled from the country leon. The this is a moment were with the Additional Support and thats by way of a the kremlin did surging as an anchor and Technical Assistance with those propaganda and networks to stay on the air that the they are doing their best and difficult circumstances. The gentlemens time has expired. Mr. Keating. Thank you mr. Chairman thank you for your service. I think its important to stress that bipartisan support this committee has shown for the agency. Work on the republican or democratic majority is in charge but it is bipartisan with the National Defense authorization act with a chair joining me to strengthen the oversight function and rightfully so. He has violated a subpoena and an arrogant manner, a lawful subpoena and is struck with the irony that the ceo so its in charge that you wrote the tenant democracy with will love arguably. He deserves who is criticism and more so. He was not given the power to be there by himself and then to ask like this administration i noticed in the testimony referencing the heart of the attack of the Trump Administration. So to give a little more testimony where the is attacks have planned. Not just acting alone with these attacks on the agency. I can add one item that is relevant doing with the j want the supporters we were told by an individual that it was likely to be in alignment with the white house immigration policies rather than connected to the needs of the agency and the damage that could be done to our services if these critical skill sets went away. There was one instance. It wasnt about the mission of the agency. It was other broader white house policies that had been referenced. That is correct congressman. Like immigration. Yes. Anyone else want to comment on these kinds of attacks . Want to put the focus there is a person in place. They are there for a reason and doing things for a reason. I reference the Trump Administration we will speak more about that but i was referencing the president s own direct attack which led up to the confirmation of michael pack although not directly attacked but still an attack on the agency and ultimately one another thing i will say as a lifelong republican, i believe it is a coordinated frenzy with administration. Secretary of state pompeo those on the us agm board until michael pack dismissed him the same night he removed the heads. Secretary of state pompeo was billion for the agenda. That it must be somebody above mr. Pompeo which leads to mr. Miller where the president himself. I understand the distinction between the support the secretary of state but hes not calling the shots. We heard lack of securit security, zoom, hard drives you know its a cloud you dont use them. Owners more egregious use of security with ivanka trump and Jared Kushner and the president himself. We know it is not that the greater concern is who i respect enormously to mention the threat to National Security. Can you comment on the threat to undercut this agency . Ambassador crocker . I am here. And the darkest days of world war ii it was our National Security. Directly and very clearly. And i referenced that initial broadcast. In just a few words mr. Hale summarize the Strategic Logic and the continuing mission along with the other entities. You are breaking up every time is running out. But it is so relevant today. Just days ago i was on a podcast in a briefing and lithuania are talking about the importance of what the us can do with the functions you are talking about with your agency truly represents nothing were being into being turned into and i yield back. Mr. Chairman may i respond since my name was mentioned . Thank you for your question just to reiterate that yes as noted i was the subject of attacks from agency wise but for me was the reason is the issue i dont administration and is happy with the coverage so the fact the president might have something to complain about is nothing new the ability to have anyone reach in to alter that is the problem. Everyone is free to have their own opinions but the other agencies traditionally have been completely independent of those actions and that is what is important to focus on. Thats thank you so much. Thank you for conducting this hearing and for thoughtful remarks as well and for your extraordinary courage. This is a deeply disturbing set of offense. The power of the truth that reliable news is provided to freedom and democracy and around the world. The idea the agency has done such important work for so long is under attack is one more example to break those norms. You said it was clear after several weeks he didnt come to the agency to run it . I still havent settled on that because no real strategy has emerged he removed all the Network Heads and had a long confirmation process and had people in mind to replace them. I dont think he came to run it because to me it doesnt feel like he is engaged like he hasnt wanted to find parts of it is about starving the organization of resources. When you remove people found positions you run the agency you just stop from doing the work. You spoke powerfully about the importance of the firewall. Can you describe the consequences repeatedly and what is being reported and the morale of these agencies and the impact on her efforts here and around the world. I havent been there when they ended but i can speak in general to say what distinguishes american podcasting from the propaganda efforts of those authoritarian regimes that we cover is the fact we are known to be and in practice separate from any administration. Any attempt to regulate the output of the media is unwelcome as it is damaging to the reputation of the journalist and the journalism working at a single thing that separates us from propaganda it is the independence. Speaking about the impact with offending of ot have what is the implication on the work and more broadly the consequence the administration has attempted to impose the firewall . In terms of the mission of the agency and frankly who benefits the american and voice around the world . Thank you are congressman i know you know the importance of this Internet Freedom i could go through the specific implications osha has a long history of freedom efforts and employees to expand its efforts searching for training and tools and us agm flows and with funding weeks before the new security laws came into effect. I talked about belarus, iran, so the agreedupon priorities that this tiny organization has furthered behind the scenes in a quiet and powerful way working with Civil Society groups and now not only to have the funding but attacks on its reputation and security that are just unfounded even if the funding is restored so to the question to harms s, the United States supporting those Democratic Values and is authoritarian. It is shocking to think of the strategic National Security and the undermining of the important work of the agencies and then to defend his horrific behavior undermining the response that he has that he is being paid by the taxpayers of this country and doesnt have the decency to answer for his conduct and ignore a subpoena. Thank you mr. Chairman. I know i have been on three Committee Hearings forgive me if i go over the same ground but to revoke the piece of a foreign journalist, michael pack claimed they might be spies. He presented no evidence to back up the claim i find the use of the term spy interesting for decades authoritarian states have used this term to target journalist working us agm grantees. Do you believe a us official spies helps to discredit the work of the grantees . That is to anyone on the panel. I will say it is incredibly demoralizing to hear the agm make such comments these are the same slayers by authoritarian regimes and those that are urbanized from our colleagues in belarus which is incredibly dangerous to write that press release. So people around the world have access to truthful information. Like Radio Free Europe, asia, the voice of america and the others are uniquely suited to be on the frontlines of the battle. How have the changes impacted the ability to combat the Misinformation Campaigns of adversaries like russia . It includes inserting partisanship and firing foreign journalists who have a better sense of how to appeal the target audiences abroad. The steps that have been taken and the rhetoric that has been used not only discredits as an objective source of news and a reputation that was hard earned, but it also endangers. I was a career field guy in some of the rougher parts of the world and assert that they have infiltrated the establishment not only discredits, but it puts everyone out there on the field. This assertion pushes the very line of the correspondence overseas in some very tough places it puts them physically at risk. I have a few seconds left, but i think that is a very important point that without evidence hes made libel claims that were these journalists to get a job somewhere else in another country could threaten not only of thei their livelihot their safety when somebody from the government has labeled a journalist, who was going to trust another country and fire somewhere else. If thithis man has acted incredy recklessly and even for that he should be dismissed from his job. Thank you mr. Castro. Your time is expired. We now go to mr. Titus. Thank you mr. Chairman. I have enjoyed and learned a lot and appreciate the hearing. To follow up on some of the things that have already been mentioned, we have seen the governments he was the technicality and the law and weve seen governments accused journalists of being spies in a way to curtailing them. Of now we are seeing a general backsliding of democracy in Eastern Europe and parts of asia and along with that comes the kind of predictable crackdown on journalists. We know that the spread of misinformation is even more dangerous, so i wonder how your organizations are dealing with the new element and with the actions have had an effect on their ability to respond to these new threats. This is amanda and i can answer the first half of that question. Perhaps someone else can answer the second half. It is demonstrable in the era when theres a flood of misinformation that the most powerful of obstacles of that misinformation is to flood with Accurate Information and one thing that i found particularly heartwarming in my tenure and to listen to audiences say they came to us because they could believe what they said. Doing that kind of work is critical particularly in this era of misinformation. We are in a battle with china especially over whether there is going to be an internet with National Governments able to send the survey will. To be a high powered engine called geneva that would have dynamically had the censorship of asian techniques after the censorship apparatus. At that kind of innovation has been put on hold because of these actions. Ischemic we have an administration but also it encourages the members, he studied this international mantra. Was that part of the agenda and how does that affect the attention to get out the will lacks anybody . He has that sort of viewpoint and it gives you a little bit of an inkling of what he thinks about the place right now. Part of what these entities do is model with the free press is around the world so they get good information into these societies but they alsos show with the free press is and thats one of the values the u. S. Has shown around the world is what can the free press be and i think that you are hearing the importance of holding that value into talking about the importance and the kind of harm that can be done when we denigrate it. It should be protected, not denigrated as you said. You said he wasnt there to run the agency. I think it is clear that you were there to run it to the ground. Thank you mr. Chairman and i will yield back. Thank you, mr. Charan. To tighten the regulations around the media have had Significant Impact having to say publicly that we represent our interest which isnt the case given that our journalists are actually russian citizens reporting on their own societies with full editorial independence as we discussed many times during the hearing and theyve now taken that to a new level bypassing the law that allows the nation and independent journalist as spies and they havent implemented that law but its hanging over and weve tried to do our best to provide corrective information but this is one of those issues as well to work with the state department and the u. S. Government and members of congress to help to be able to maintain that so this is going to be an ongoing problem. A. What would you say is the most serious effort to try to cripple our efforts to promote across europe. A. One of the Biggest Challenges that was trying to move the Organization Forward is to get access to the audience the way that they reach th average the e right now is digital and because of some of the issues that we discussed earlier, the russian government has even threatened to curtail that. So that i think is the biggest concern expanding access. It requires a broader conversation about the way the Russian Media and the directed media are treated in the United States because russia today doesnt face these limitations about reaching an american audience. They can ask every american if they wante want to through multe platforms and right now theyve blocked rferl and voa from being able to do that. Ischemic what do you think the credibility issues will be if they are proceeded as propaganda outlets. What is the overall impact in terms of credibility, the longstanding credibility if this were to happen . It completely undermines the confidence of the audience and if there are questions raised about the objectivity and independence. Its incredibly personal and emotional and people trust the correspondence and the anchors and as soon as they think that the journalists are not able to do their job independently they may be tempted to go elsewhere which is sacrificing an important tool developed over decades. Thank you mr. Cha chairman. I will yield back. Thank you, chair man for holding the steering. I just wanted to get the effectn the table is that correct that they need to maintain political independence and neutrality . Yes, thats correct. Ischemic and is it correct they are not supposed to target american audience with its programming box. That is also correct. Incidental of the acquisition of the content its very difficult of course but targeting the audience is not permitted. Mr. Turner, before appointed as the coo as the usagm, the most people knew he used to make movies with stephen and he is a long critics of usagm to start the new Government Network to push out the talking points, you got one he said, and argued that it was the voice of america. Now hes long gone from government, thankfully. But the Trump Administration remains intense so quickly before the election yet of this is why i was so disturbed by a protected whistleblower disclosure that you submitted to the office of the Inspector General do you recall that document . Yes, congresswoman, i do one is that you disclose the ig and required to the editorial pages on each of those websites with a variety of press releases and other administration produced information from the department. How was it disturbing to you that you needed to disclose it . It gets at the heart of the firewall and independence of the organization. Part is to communicate and help people around the world. What is the congress thinking about end of tha and that is whr hearings as a big part of original. Its a dictating how the news is to be delivered and reaches that firewall ordering the networks to carry the administrations as content in a prescribed way is a breach of that firewall and that is why i wanted to disclose it. Why was he so focused on using the organization to push out the administrations talking points . Its the one concrete thing that ive seen him do is insert these editorials into the networks so its on his list of things he wanted to do. The other thing that you disclosed was the he directed members of his team to participate. One of the things people and the committee would want is someone from the opposing party inserting their people into the planning meetings where the coverage of the upcoming president ial election runs one way this year but then eventually the shoe was on the other foot. If there is danger when the voa is seen as a propaganda on any administration and we do our work outside of the country and credibility is important so i appreciate you for your bravery and every Single Person putting their life on the line. Mr. Phillips. A. Theyve shared their mutual perspectives disappointed that he has chosen not to honor his commitment to testify in front of us so we appreciate your time. He wouldnt hesitate to choose the latter into our founders knew everyone was final to open the Democratic Society and usagm was founded in the very principles. To conduct and engage with people around the world. Thats why ive watched and compromised so many of these and making Public Comments foregoing protection for employees in the effort to drain the swamp and dismissing lawyers with the mandated editorial among many other things. My first question mr. Crocker about that role so please tell us what is the specific role . [inaudible] as soon he was sworn in. We cannot express for the entities and guarantees to the board to ensure the Board Membership across was the same. It is identical and i data was o oversee the functioning to ask the hard questions and in particular to the allocation. We were all prepared i think to carry on as necessary. So, in addition to the problems we have seen since june [inaudible] thank you, mr. Crocker. We replace with the chief of staff and political appointees from the agency and hate group. Question for you, what impact does that have on the culture and the atmosphere inside . It is incredibly dangerous and ive highlighted my written testimony the statute despite the additional power given to the ceos specifically requires that the Corporate Board and all personnel constituents related to officers. I have no evidence that they ever even discussed my determination of the board members. I dont know how they would follow their fiduciary obligation to the corporation. The final thing i would note i have concern about the fact that the board of each of the guarantees is now a majority federal board. I have the statute right in front of me that says specifically the statute doesnt make the instrumentality. I dont know how this maintains when you have a Corporate Board made up of a majority of federal officials so theres a whole host of issues. Thank you mr. Chair for being here and also those virtually for the testimony. I would also apologize in case this question has been asked and answered, but i would love to know first if you could help us understand why there are so many journalists that are foreign nationals in fleece of america and what particular skills they bring to the work and also if you would enlighten us more about the recruitment process and what brought them to work risking their lives to do so. Thank you for asking that question. They bring really unique skills that are hard to find and we know this because we are required and over the years its proven very difficult. People with journalistic skills, the negative command of the language that can be used in a broadcasting platform and journalistic skills these are unbelievably difficult things to find. If they sethey see this as a cae both in their countries and around the world will be able to work at the voice of america is a tremendous honor and risk as has been mentioned previously here its a security and safety risk because the countries we are broadcasting to end recruiting from our authoritarian countries that dont mention radio three broadcasting so they perform a vital function in the broadcast of all of us. I would be interested to know if you could comment on that please we will start with you mr. Turner. His actions have created a Chilling Effect and its intimidating people. Would you like to add to that . I would like to discuss it in the opposite effect which is that during the time up until our departure of the leaders of the organizations, we found the morale increased substantially. So for those of us that felt like our mission was to remove obstacles and clear the path, we felt that improved the morale and we discovered between 2016 to the Previous Year yet increased from 46 of people that were generally satisfied to over 70 . If that is a pretty big jump and i contribute that to the dedication people have added to the mission and of their their appreciation of the fact that they felt it was being supported. A. Within thwith the last 30 ser so, i hope youve heard theres an enormous amount of support for the mission and as we tried to continue our responsibility of oversight what reforms do you believe could be made and how could congress be helpful in those reforms . As we entered on this experiment of having the president ially appointed ceo, we didnt quite know what to expect and everyone thought it was kind of a reasonable theory. It doesnt feel like its working very well right now. There are people with ideas about what reform could take place and i mentioned the former general counsel that is knowledgeable and i know would be very happy to assist anyone. Theres a thing about dont tear down the fence until you know someone put it up and we had a bipartisan board and it worked, so may b maybe going back to tht might help. A. Thank you. I apologize for going over and i will yield back. I want to start with a question that will help illuminate the value of these broadcast agencies. We talk about it as a current example and i just wanted to ask mr. Friday to confirm they are covering the crisis every single day basically 24 7; is that correct . As i noted before getting arrested while doing it. Cnn is a broadcasting 24 7 this is a unique service the rest of the media doesnt have the resources to provide. The primary competitor. A. Very briefly what is the difference between the coverage and why do people want to listen to our service lacks. Over decades theyve built a confidence in the audience and respect because they know that it stands for truth. Its that motion of truth. I was born in poland. Actually seeing the truth about being able to protest injustice. Its central to the discussion. Mr. Turner im sure you are aware mr. Pack has a longstanding association and before his appointment he was pushing this appointment as a way of trying to ensure that the broadcast agencies were promoting the president s America First agenda around the world and that it would compete with cnn. Is that appropriate, and after the arrival, did you see any sign that that impacted his motivation . Certainly i think there have been windows into that. The firewall breaches to insert Political Leadership or his operatives into planning sessions and coverage of the president ial election is an indication of how they would like things to work. As of now, each of the guarantees. If they are excellentthey are es and standing strong. Many have been asked to compromise and theres been lots of intimidation. If they were with the charge of competing with fox news and promoting the administration it would be just as damaging to the integrity of the institution. Let me just say weve heard a lot of paranoia coming from this man about foreign spies infiltrating the usagm. I would never accuse somebody of consciously serving for a foreign interest without evidence to back the charge. But if china, russia, north korea or any of our adversaries had in fact infiltrated usagm, they couldnt possibly have done more harm to americas interest then mr. Pack has in fact done on his own. Thank you, and i will yield back. The gentlemans plan time is expired and that concludes the questioning. I want to thank the witnesses for a very important testimony and the witnesses for being sticking here and almost everybody on the committee asked a question. This is certainly something we are going to continue to pursue as time moves on so thank you to everybody that participated. At the hearing is now adjourned. [inaudible conversations]