Transcripts For CSPAN2 Discussion On Diversity In The Publishing Industry 20240712

I am Vivian Schiller with the outfit institute. Glad you could be with us today. The New York Times bestseller list can be a mirror of the National Psyche and this reflects a nation going through an awakening on matters of race. Books on matters of race and racism fill fiction and nonfiction. Thats the good news. Sadly the Publishing Industry does not always reflect that reality. The recent twitter protest amy, the pay disparity in the industry between black and nonblack others. There are a few people of color who serve as publishing several literary agents and even fewer who operate at a decisionmaking level and for those who are published, the market exposure can be so awesome. At this year of National Reckoning on racism, we look at the book Publishing Industry and whether it can bring more racial diversity to the field. This is part of our changing the narrative series, issues of race through the media and one program on the news media and another program about the entertainment industry. We ask for the challenges but also the new possibility in this case for publishing more books by and about people of color. I introduce our moderator for the day but just a reminder this is a live program. You will hear a conversation among our moderator and fantastic panelists, we will take your questions and if you look at the bottom of the screen, at any Time Starting now you can look at that button and hit we ask that you add your name and your affiliation if you dont like doing so. It adds more texture to the question. We provide those to our wonderful moderator who will pose them to our panel. Anytime, click on it starting now. And and a diverse state, awardwinning client and adult and childrens literature. Nicole dennisbenn wrote here comes the sun, literary awardwinning, and her second novel is a literary awardwinning, New York Times editors choice, Financial Times critic choice, and the best book of the year. Lisa lucas is executive director of the National Book foundation and incoming Senior Vice President and publisher of pantheon pantheon schocken, publisher of a nonprofit online magazine focusing on writing that explores the intersection of art and politics for international and diverse focus. You have with us errol mcdonald, Vice President and executive editor in the knofp doubleday division of random house, in various editorial capacities for three decades, and jack henry abbott, count basie, henry lewis gates, Fran Leibowitz and many more. I am so pleased to introduce my colleague and moderator for today, adrienn bordeur, head of executive director, and author of the memoir while gain, during her 15 years at the Publishing Industry, adrian founded the literary magazine for francis ford coppola, and served with the book contest, she is published far and wide in magazines. A literary arts Nonprofit Program of the Aspen Institute which includes the aspen works literary prize. We are so pleased to have you with us, i turn it over to you and the other panel. Thank you for the introduction and thank you to the Aspen Digital Team for hosting this event and to all of you, our panelists and all of you for your interest in changing the narrative for something longoverdue in the Publishing Industry. The group met yesterday, had a little pregame conversation, as much as possible we would like to make this forward thinking solution driven conversation. In other words, we are not going to sugarcoat the facts or the historical situations around racial inequalities that exist in publishing, we will not spend much time restating and rehashing the obvious, the obvious being the Publishing Industry has always been predominantly white, 76 according to a recent survey and that figure is higher when it comes to the highest position in the industry and as a result of that power structure and the fact that white people have been the primary arbiters of culture, writers of color have a harder time getting published. There are other issues, cultural appropriation, disparities in pay, what publishing paid me, twitter protest, so we will have lots to talk about but before we dive into the conversation it feels important to acknowledge that i am a white woman and i am sure have blind spots in terms of my own privilege and i am working to become more selfaware but with that lets begin. As all of us on this call now we are lucky enough to work in one of the most fascinating, exciting, wonderful industries, publishing, the world of literature and storytelling and letters and would like to start with you talking about what drew you to the literary world and what the Publishing Industry needs to do now to open up opportunities to people of color and i thought we would start with you and talk about your experience at Howard University press. So excited to be on this panel. When i think about the genesis of how i started in publishing, the name of my company, serendipity literary agency, i had a background in engineering as an Aerospace Engineer and said i was going to take this Publishing Program at Howard University and it changed my life and turns my world upside down. I had a background interest in background, background interest in books. You have always been a person to go to the library, and i realize, i asked my mom to go upstairs and she found a certificate i had given James Baldwin so i have always been part of the publishing space but i ended up at Howard University Publishing Institute and that institute no longer exists today, as an engineer i started working for john wiley and sons and then they moved me to new york and i worked as an editor in the engineering discipline, just thinking back to the genesis there are two people i met at the Publishing Institute who are still in the Business Today and one is a business partner, one was literary agents, we have our own imprint and also i met cheryl hudson, publisher with her husband wade, something to be said about the longevity. And something about the fundamentals learned that the Publishing Institute, Howard University Publishing Institute no longer exists today but when i think about what the industry could do to bring more people into the business and sustain them, it would be an awesome idea to reinvigorate the institute. The Denver Institute program, nyu, numerous publishers are trying to figure out how to get to the talent, no bigger or better way to do that. At harpercollins, echo in partnership, created a publishing diverse city, at columbia publishing, that is still a smaller organization than the one you are talking about. It segues nicely to the bounty of jobs in publishing that we dont necessarily all know are there without education in the field, writers and editors, you want to talk about that . Somebody told me, and it is a complicated industry and i am still learning, i didnt start working at literary magazines until i was 33 so i came from outside the industry though i had been within it since then and it was a real education in all the things no one has told me. We have to think about diversifying the industry with decisionmakers, executives, publishers and editors and marketing folks, and design, legal, hr and all the things that go and fail. And it has a title as an author, this person made this book and takes an enormous team to make a lot of these books, if you dont have diversity at every level you dont have the checks and balances that prevent this from happening or diverse city of information where there are challenges and the blind spots are all throughout. We do focus on authors and editors and we have to be thinking broadly about what an entire team makes look and in print possible publishing possible. Or the agents representation, regina is so important, you need to understand the challenge and educate people about what these are. One of our jobs is teenagers, and the most important thing we did is demystify what it looked like, below the line jobs and what it meant to be director, editor and producer. People had an understanding of what was happening and we are happy to seem like we make magic, my magical artform i worked in, nobody could figure out what we do. That all of yours there are roles for people to fill and jobs, parents of a child might not support them if they want to be an author or editor. They might understand what it means to be in hr and to work in the arts with a law degree. And talking about a job at the top, thinking about sales or marketing, we have to start educating about publishing and the whole literary field, and think about who the artist is first and so much has to happen for that are to live. Reporter let me turn to the artist, nicole. Tell us about your journey. Was it hard to find traction in the industry at the beginning . And all that with your first novel . Demystifying the industry. I am coming from medical background, a first generation immigrant, that is what you want to do. And so when i came to the us after college and grad school, got into that, students in the program. That is the only hurdle to jump through when we get into the realm of publishing. As lisa mentioned, that first book, that person ended up, a woman in michigan would never read my books and understand what i am talking about. Being a young writer, have to do that to be successful. Reading my books, i had a mentor, the head of the christian right, let this one go, go back to the drawing board, clearance agents, that is what i ended up doing. Resubmitting to agents and a couple weeks so happy julia bear happened to be one of them who i fell in love with. My mentor, very important, one thing marita said to me, your agent is in a relationship. And a young writer out there, what you ought to get. A black immigrant, dark issues, sexuality of all these things, the luck of having that happen, not many publishing houses were latching onto it. The only publishers that latch onto the book was casey adams, messages like it is too commercial or dont understand why a young black girl is seeking her skin. Diversifying publishing, more black editors perhaps who are looking at the work and saying we understand the important of the other side of the paradise people see, the are behind the fantasy, dont feel like anyone got that except one woman who happens to be white. Supporters of allies as well. One thing that happened in 2020, getting my foot in the door, once that is coming on, you she is in position, right here reaching over, did not know these people, coming up with the nsa program, on this level these individuals are now placing higher position. She said to me change has to happen from the top, yes and no but the top is where it happened first. I am so happy, looking at people and coming into the game you see yourself in that as well, didnt achieve that because people behind closed doors, where we are coming from. You have been in the industry for some time, why has the industry been so slow to diversify, what other initiatives need to be developed to achieve greater inclusivity . There is so much fake news about publishing in general and publishers have done a lousy job accounting for and describing the industry. Let me say publishing with literary publishing per se is a nonstarter, most people dont pay attention, the press is mostly interested in literary and commercial things in fiction, but they can increase diversity and inclusion by advertising jobs and multiplicity of categories and function. I echo what lisa says, along every aspect of the publishing chain we should think about it reflecting america how america looks and right now the emphasis is strictly on decisionmakers and that should not be. If it is beyond decisionmakers it should be decisionmakers in publicity, marketing and sales in the bookselling community. It is such an enormous industry. To the current moment we are existing in we can agree a unique moment in time or special moment but in recent weeks black authors including isabel wilkerson, michelle among many others have surged to the top of the bestseller lists, we wish all of us that this moment hadnt been brought on by this racial reckoning that took place in the aftermath of the murders of innocent black people, george floyd, breonna taylor, does this moment feel different to you . Does it feel, do you think this will last . What can wait and black publishing do to continue to sustain recognition of authors of color so it is not just uplift that winds down . I dont believe it is a reflection on the history of publishing. Books by black writers were hugely popular in the 60s and 70s, and the black Power Movement and that went away. We are at a moment where the narrative, but to a certain degree by people in power so those books on the bestseller list are there to educate whites. Whites have taken on these books who are a selfhelp program, interest in these books will attenuate, but their appearance on the bestseller list is increased in acquiring more books like those among publishers. This is and how it works in the music industry. To continue to change this. You are on mute. A big question. What was said before, difficult to penetrate the marketplace, lack of understanding, that i consistently asked, and the book is going to sell to pick up in the bookstore, would you acquire that book. If it doesnt resonate with me, and i am not the best editor of that book. And and to make decision. They cant enjoy books written of people and generally they raise up and buy books from celebrities, that is one big obstacle on the editorial side. The other thing, understanding how to position the book once it is acquired that is a big issue. The audience, all of these areas within publishing do we have issues, again staffing issues which of people in the sales the permit or marketing or publicity or people of color there will be more understanding of how that will be positioned. The marketing director, i am okay about the position of this book but i am here to stand in the gap. I have my finger on the pulse of certain communities, as an ally to help position these books but there are a lot, agents dont like helping with marketing and the structure is not set up to allow agents to have that access marketing, publicity, sales, etc. Who was helping you with that gap. Both books have been successful, and you through some of that. Anyone like that he has he had polls and what was more folks coming on board. Everything the pockets i wanted it was also hit and determination to read the book as well, and doing that, and i have always hits from jamaica and have to get the book as well. Multiple factors, all the stars were aligned. I listened to your book and you have been credited with revitalizing the National Book award and its annual award and in 2008, authors of color swept all five categories. Why do you think theres the disconnect between recognition and perception of marketability for authors of color . To the point girl made earlier at the top, functionally the National Book awards, the publicity wing of books, we make noise about book and try to serve readers, we are not author facing, we are read or facing, our job is to widen the audience, that is what we work to do and that is the way we double our panels represent our show, the different programs we do for Public Housing or doing middle School Programs for Young Readers or mass incarceration and coming up with interesting ways to read those books and ultimately one of the reasons we see the problems is failure to imagine a different or new audience, if it is noble enough or small enough we can do that easily. I can get a new job and say we can reach a bigger audience, somebody will put me on the job and we start doing the new program and it is not as difficult to implement change. On the publishing side, one of the things is there seems to be a resistance in literary publishing to think about what we sell, as a commodity, a transaction between consumers and sellers. If you were apple and said seems like black people just dont like the ipad, so we are not going to sell them ipads, with everincreasing black population we will throw that in the garbage, they dont like ipads and that seems like what publishing has done. That can guarantee a sale and that is not going to happen and a flash in the pan or whatever the expression is, this happened to be a big bestseller and never will ever happen again so lets go back to selling your grandma in iowa a book because we know she will buy it but the question for me how did we get your grandma in iowa to love books and to like a specific kind of book, market research, building the audience, consistently well served, involve the business, continue serving the cash how that is that particular demographic segment of america and in continued refusal to actually seek market share, with all the black and brown communities in america we often fail on that and that is what i keep coming down to, do we like to sell things yes or no . Are there more people who demonstrated that we over index on cultural consumption and do we want to sell those things. Do we like stories . Yes. We love film. We love podcasts. We love television, we love books. Actual factual information and that in so far as i understand is our job and just continuation, all these books going off the bestseller looks, we keep them on the bestseller books, pumping things into the population that doesnt face it consistently or just critical apparatus, very few black booksellers, few latino booksellers, very few bookstores and communities who serve these communities and what do you do with that. The whole thing is structured to look only at white people and it is a big shift and you have to systematically look where those points are and adjust not just for equity, not just for justice, the most cynical level for money. It is so fascinating. They fund race and racism. Even those, to wait readers. Ive seen a lot of people how to be an antiracist on subways, publishers need to broaden their understanding to black people. Anyone else . Black People Matter before we can decide black folks deserve good culture, the exclusionary history, it is suppression, we is this language that is so soft, this is cultural suppression, the article that came out of our criterion collection, enormous collection of the best films on planet earth, those books if not been canonized. And you think about so many films, shaped culture and black following the film side and actual exclusion disincentive rises participation, fails to educate the American Population and suppress our real voices, it is not valuing this person will articulate what value is for everyone and we become devalued, the dangerous nature of this sort of thing that people dont understand, it is not just unjust. And and and the Cultural Landscape that suppresses black choice in so many different instances, part of what is destroying our country. Toni morrison brought me to the job and watch her interview or read her essays, and write your stories, teaching white people, and here comes the claim, and and was would Toni Morrison say, the truth about artform, and at the same time on the list, i do see the pattern. And it tends to have that element in there. Giving that much thought and a lot of pressure on the artist, what if we are writing and nobody wants to read what we write and how can you write things and discussions like this one but dont want to latch onto, that is my perspective as an artist, keep us in place to what we have to say. Im glad you are part of this conversation and before i realize were getting close to wanting to turn it over to audience q and a i want to ask one last question as a stalwart optimist, would give you hope about the industry these days . You mentioned some that you feel hopeful about . That any of you chime in on . One thing i am excited about, i am on the board of an association of the representatives, we are doing quite a bit to bring more people of color into the agency world, in order to get into mainstream publishing houses you need an agent and more people of color, it would be difficult and just being an agent is a difficult thing with the way the Business Model is set up. Not a lot of people of color live in new york city, that is shifting and where a salary is set up based on you eat what you kill. I get 15 of the money that my authors get for an advance. The publishing paid me hashtag so as an agent im working with clients that are black, i have a combination but if im working with black authors whose work is being devalued and only getting a small percentage it is a difficult business to be in but there are a lot of changes being addressed, i am super excited to be one of the people helping to make those shifts. One of the things that excites me, two things excite me, there appears to be a generational shift in the Publishing Industry. I was really heartened by the attempts at insurrection by young people recently, making certain demands of publishers. It is not unhealthy to an older generation which adheres to certain narratives, that generation might be dying out. I would agree, the thing that gives the new generation coming in and 20 years into a career, happily in the middle, came up the way i came up. To change the way i dressed or acted, but i feel ashamed of in many cases, they are growing up believing this to be unacceptable. The narrative, the larger landscape, even i as an outspoken enraged person feel and think and do are so much more radical than i could ever dream of being and i cant wait. The thing i can give, i had many mentors many from the old guard, more of a model from a role model than a technical mentor, to seek out young people who want to change this, to empower them at this stage, great shakeup of the cultural world, all the tools they could possibly have. At one point, too conservative, youre not changing fast enough and i will commit, to make this a little bit more just. I grew up in a different world in 1980, and still very frustrating in 2020 to be that age and had an opportunity to change a few things and people have demonstrated they still value the book. It is more than it did 10 years ago. That interception of young people, no name for instance. A deep and profound interest of getting books into prison, and thinking about who we are speaking to or spoken by see what that looks like. Im excited for that future, the degree that i would like it to and that is okay. We have a lot to thank the two of you for, for the resurgence of the book. I will look at these questions in the chatline and ask some of these so libraries are part of a larger book ecosystem and collectively have significant buying power. How can you push for change in the Publishing Industry, how Library Staff advocates for social change in the Publishing Industry. Any thoughts there . In many ways as a bookseller. A community of people who want to participate, what you were buying many copies of, the programs you run around those books for how welcome someone is or isnt in that face and who is this space for. Who are we creating these spaces for. And the Real Community in mind culturally, to start a conversation, librarians are doing gods work, critique for the Library Community because ground 0, i love the librarian, who loses the setup for. And nurture young staff and empower them, to give them credit for, they are living or building a more equitable, sharing power, doing two different conversations about equity far more progressive on those issues. And we have a lot to critique. We have another question from a writer. What other activism needs to happen to throwback the person on other jobs within publishing. I dont know theres much to add beyond what we said. I feel it would be super advantageous to do something with the Publishing Institute because you can talk about different positions that are available in the industry. Having people come in and talk to young people about what opportunities exist, a lot of it is just access to knowledge and being able to see it. I want to say i worked in nonprofits for 19 years, never worked at a publisher. Thats not what i have done. I cant make heads details of the Publishing Group and how many people were a, it is totally obscure, totally opaque if i couldnt figure out how would anyone else, how it works, i have to say i was flabbergasted, who does what, how does this work. Like that internally and externally. Explain what a literary agent actually does, there are multiple ways literary agents approach the business. It is very nontransparent. How little i actually know, not because people dont want to tell you, just very complex, nothing you can read or download that will be like god it, that is how this works, this needs to happen and talking about what the industry, not just ourselves or future staff, people know how books are made. Dance organizations have classes in schools who explain what dance is. Imagine if dance is like we are like books and every child needs us to learn how to read. A good part of everyones life and the fact that they are truly are these magical objects, dont understand what were where they come from but it is really concerning. Even within the Publishing Industry, if you are asked five editors how you do that you will get five different working for different places. Some things are so fundamental that that is challenging. Why would you want to grow to be a book jacket designer if you want to know how that works for those jobs exist is difficult. The big 5 publishers who are watching to support the reinvigoration of howards program. Let me read another question, Michael Julius e donnie, what can happen to pursue publishing careers be successful, compassionate, talented, firstgeneration College Graduate and those from workingclass backgrounds who may contribute to supporting their families, the iowa writers workshop. I think the industry is going to be changing dramatically as a result of covid19. It is going to change in ways we cant imagine was working at home will become prevalent for certain functions and that is how i open the door to some constituencies that heretofore selfpublishing could be attractive. I dont know definitive pronouncements how to bring people in but i do know the industry is changing. For opportunity. Because of the pandemic i have a fellow working in belgium and someone in washington dc and an agent in san diego, going to be much more working remote. I am internally building a system to educate people about the Agency Business and how to become an agent even if they are not on site. I feel like what we learned from the situation, we are figuring out how to work in other places. The final question is so long and complicated i have been reading it and dont quite find the question. I will go back to something we talked about a little bit yesterday which has to do with language and the language surrounding some of the goals in publishing to be more inclusive. You talk a little bit about it, how to make things more inclusive on that particular level. I have been reading about the changing of the guard for obvious reasons, people talking about what we need to do in publishing of the we the we are using is not that when we talk about we are talking about americas literature, where we are saying us and them, they feel this way, still havent started the conversation and we have to learn on that level how to acknowledge the table is shared as opposed to i will give you a seat at my table and we must speak about it as such. Secondarily, industrywide, because theres a majority and a small minority majority talks about books as though it is the other. How can you sell that, not selling to another community, we are all one community. And some of the words that people say to me in discussions on panels and not because my feelings are hurt, i have been called worse, worse things have been done to me but the point has not been taken, this loud, moral, clear point that has been made over and over again for decades. With our language we still dont understand the fundamentals working in an us and them environment that you still believe yourself to be supreme when you are not. We have to appreciate the language of diversity and inclusion as problematic because it is a master narrative, diversifying who was doing the diversifying and including and for what . Morris and left out of that language is one word which is equity, diversity, inclusion and equity. Publishers had a hard time with that. I cant find the lie. That is a wonderful note to end the questions on. I think vivian is going to be coming back in. It is 4 00 but i want to thank you for participating or lending your voices or being a part of this discussion. Lisa thank you so much. So great for moderating and i also want to thank the designer for this entire series about looking at media through the lands in the video we posted later tonight or tomorrow you can find it on at aspen digital and we will have the link on a twitter account