recently published his latest book on thomas jefferson. once a darling of the left he now should his socialist passing though he still holds to keep some sections on marxism. however his forsaken his liberal friends, describing them as to righteous, boring and have been for us. as views then is not to be pigeonholed. maybe that word contrary and best describes him. latest in judgment, please welcome christopher hitchens. [applause] >> first of all thank you very much ladies and joan were comin coming. thank you for that very handsome introduction. it's nice to meet someone for whom i could've been separated from epworth. [laughter] i am told ladies and judge of mobile have three quarters of an hour together. so it's an hour okay that's goo good. was going to say i would take it when people like yourselves come to events like this in order to speak as well as to be spoken to. so will try to be is sparing with my share of the time as they can be. but bear in mind that mr. jefferson was in power almost continuously one way or another for cordova century. quite a difficult life to compress into one book. i thought it would speak about him on four headings enlightenment, board revolution, nationbuilding, and slavery. jefferson was slightly prone to self-pity. often say the burden was too great. the appreciation of his efforts was insufficient. the bitterness of politics was to foul. who counselors they would much rather be back home in my farm in monticello. he would have now said to spend more time with my family and we would be able to add more time with his two families. but as it happens, he could easily have elected to something other than politics. and have been perhaps not as well-known. but equally successful in the chosen fields. he could have been an excellent lawyer party was a very good lawyer. he took some quite early cases about emancipation. he could have been extremely good librarian. his private library became the core of what is now the library of congress. he designed a plow which dug a deeper for rural and the soil. he could and would have been a good farmer. he would not have been a good wine grow pretty never got virginia winds up to snuff. in fact they still rather like but i think they're better than the connecticut chardonnay. [laughter] he -- when he had to set or a minor point in question about the rights of whaling of whalers in the moby dick sense , between his country, our country and others he decided have to write a special treaty on it to study the whole matter properly before he gave his report. he was a genuine man in the city of philadelphia that time what might have been the equivalence of fits century athens, was becoming, had become a magnet city for that kind of talents, scientific, medical, philosophical obviously the best known to us is benjamin franklin who is a reasonable claim to have the workings of electricity and its connection with lightning. for example when joseph priestly who i think we can rightly call the discover of oxygen most of his life, was a brilliant scientist. and after it had been smashed broken out by a mob shouting for the church and the king. not all that was polite polite or polished as mr. burr was. mr. prissy decided to take his remaining instruments and knowledge across the atlantic and bring them to philadelphia with a new he would be welcomed. it was a distinguished physician also one of the founders of the antislavery society. thomas paine came across there with introduction not just in order to exert his skills as a public speaker but also the hope of designing but it never been tried before an iron bridge. a bridge that would span it wouldn't crack don't go one way to achievements to this atmosphere to the authors books on crimes and punishment began to revolutionize thinking in europe, up until then executions, torture the most barbaric kinds are very commonplace. when jefferson became governor of the state of virginia, he produced an almost mottled statute didn't actually succeed in abolishing the death penalty i'm sad to say. but him attempting less retributive and rehabilitating, more humane and more scientific penal system. that would be one what i would call enlightenment achievement and set precedent across united states. but the most important one i believe, probably the major subject of conversation in philadelphia that time was this, or is this. once they had begun to realize that the world was not flat, the son did not revolve around it, the diseases were not caused by devils or by sin, and various other quite striking of the kind for the also began to think as it were inevitably there might be another explanation and creation for the way the world was. and though there might be a designer deism is very common among this group. they believe the effects the order of nature show there must've been a god or lease a starter. but it did not look as if this personal force to get a direct interest in human affairs. did not intervene. did not answer or listen to prayers. it was not. [inaudible] it was probably necessary to have a separation in society and government between the church and the state. no other government before or since has ever deliberated on this point and resulted in this way. extremely revolutionary idea the time. probably the fact that the british crown had had its own private church, sometimes called the church of england or the episcopal church, which are volute was going to be disestablished in america. the crown is not one halves on church anymore may have made it easier. it was proposed on talking again about deliberations in the assembly by patrick henry and others, lettuce and said to have support of all churches for everyone should be tied to the support of all churches. there was to that proposition in the context only one reply which was the government said support notes church. on together, mr. jefferson and his close lifelong friend, mr. madison evolved to the virginia statues on religious freedom. how many people here been to charlottesville to marcello to see the house? that's excellent. then you know, just for those watching us and wishing they were as knowledgeable as we were. [laughter] you may not know them when mr. jefferson designed his own memorial which takes no religious form by the way. there's no cross or anything like that. he did not having the attending priest at his death either. he only mentions very small number of achievements. he should be remembered as founder of the university of virginia, also the declaration of independence. as author of the virginia statue on religious freedom. i didn't think it worth mentioning you can president twice in vice president secretary of state and ambassador to france. so we can well see the failures he put on this. and because he was in france, he wasn't present at the deliberations of philadelphia that resulted in the constitutional convention. i think it is obvious when you look at this studied on religious freedom that outranks if you like all the others which it can't be guaranteed is a secular state. and also guarantees the right of free expression. the extraordinary luck of having somebody who could come up part of the intellectual ferment, of philadelphia taken into politics and then into the law into a drafting committee and from their constitution is something i think would be certainly thin itself. so that's not all he want to say about that. i'll come back to buy another route. but the second area where he was preeminent was that of war revolution in the first place he dropped the manifesto. most of it in a rates. fails to get a clause condemning slavery from being adopted. fails to get it adopted. probably because of the pressure of the carolinas and georgia delegation. but also the number of slave traders, not holders. also in new york. but without terrible initial defeat, conceded he announces he like the first democratic revolution. so in that time democratic was generally used as an insult. as the greeks might assist auto product or mob a sure model ruled to be accused of being a democrat was be accused of favoring mob rule. sean adams would continue using it in that way for most of his life. the word democracy evolves as a non- majority. it was out of the work of thomas jefferson. and in my opinion declaration, thomas paine is the subject of my next book. the crucial thing is, popular sovereignty. for the first time the idea that rights are innate in humans. not in monarchs. not in bishops. and not to derived from the heavens though a creator is mentioned is not specified that they are common proxy. this idea which i believe is still the most revolutionary idea was at that time extraordinarily so. when mr. jefferson finally becomes president, the very first thing he does is to declare war. he does it without consulting congress. and he sends the american fleet with the marine corps way out, too far from land. too far gone in time for them to be recalled when he finally does tell congress he sent them. this is because he wanted to make absolutely sure this war was a success. the word declared is known to us as the barbary war. likely forgot now i think in our history extremely important. not just america's first work, but as a war of liberation. the war was against as i say of the barbary states, since more properly described as the states of the audubon empire in north africa. what we would now call algeria , morocco, and libya. tripoli then would be libya now in other words. they commanded entrance to the mediterranean from the atlantic the straits of gibraltar. they were in an extraordinary position to impose their will on navigation. it is calculated now by the best historians, a lot of it is quite recent work between 1750, say about (501)715-1820, about half europeans and americans were kidnapped by these powers, taken from their ships and pressed into slavery. you could avoid this if you paid a tribute to the bay or sultan, which most european powers tended to do. there was a tariff for it. but the united states was an eight week position at that point to pay the tribute. in the british crown which had up until then with the american shipping was rather been addictive. probably in fact with the barbary states in order they would particularly pick up on american ships them what they had lost by using me losing the protection. the situation was pretty desperate. the ships were pretty powerful too. they supported that almost the entire, i'm not making this is a liberal pitch. because i'm in annapolis free but the entire town of baltimore in ireland was carried off, the entire population one night about slavers. never seen again. they reach that far north and. jefferson had tried very hard to negotiate with the ambassador, he would to lend it to see him. he said by what right do you do this? we did not say part of the crusades. we did not take part in the reconquest. we are not a christian country. there is a tree that still extends with the law of the land in this country. the treaty of truth tripoli which among other things states the forcible's of congress and state in the united states is in no description a christian country worth remembering you here fights some blowhards. but he replied this was irrelevant. the any non- muslim could be taken into slavery and other infidels were to be punished for it if they didn't want to pay the special tax they could expect to be treated as chattel. it was decided to not be spoken to in this voice. the fleet set sail and after a fairly long bombardment, he won't play the whole story, very heroic operations now associated with the names of steven decatur in particular. a change of policy was imposed. the practice was given up of piracy and enslavement. it is the reason why the first line of the marine from the halls of montezuma to the shores of tripoli is the line it is. that is the first time the american flag under flag was planted in war. this is a very brisk start to mr. jefferson's presidential life. and he meant it i think, i know, strongly in my book to show the american revolution was not for americans alone. that the ideas it embodied where he hopes capable of universal emulation for it he hoped they would spread. he believed they'd spread to france for he had been disappointed by the defeat of his friend, the marquis of lafayette within the french revolution prayed nonetheless he believed the american revolution would export itself and could be exported if necessary or negate negated. i mentioned because among other things we can say that at least partially cancels the shame of the exclusion of the antislavery clause from the declaration of 1776 but at least mr. jefferson in his lifetime did put down one slave trade. i'm coming back to that slave issue two. enlightenment, nationbuilding in order for the united states to be a revolution that could be emulated and extorted it had to be a serious continental power. mr. jefferson's main occupation throughout his life. he had various principles, sometimes fetters, sometimes anti- federal sometimes a republic sometimes not for any of his prince it again territory or trade or power or influence in the united states. when this country began, we were gathered in annapolis which was the capital, it would still be in it if it remained the way it was. but the way it was, to this continent the northern continent is what chile is long ribbon like country trapped between the ocean and the mountains. julia very charming too. you see how easily they might fall prey to any review of violence between britain, spain and france it was very tenuous existence. for jefferson the absolute critical thing was to gain control of the mississippi. when we do that we can become a real continental power. so the united states of america originally coined was disputed pretty think it was true by thomas paine away we very much thought should be staged. he was always looking for expansion first the fact was he had always been in favor of the french revolution. never neutral the pro- french affection. he wrote to the french government and said, we want you to sell new orleans. we must have it and mississippi at all costs bird b understand you are willing to sell. again the idea had been given by thomas pain. i think they would sell us louisiana. jefferson said if you don't do it, if you don't accept our offer, we can gain control the mississippi and willing to make a naval and military alliance with great britain, something that would've been unthinkable for him to say. and napoleon's chief politician, had to admit they were so broke that he would give them every french territory in north america. it wasn't even quite sure the full extent of it. their given lot for the fall in price which comes down to, if you take henry adams beautiful formulation, doubling the size the united states in one day. at the cost of 10 cents. acre. the most extraordinary land deal in history. almost manifest destiny. [laughter] specially when you think, this is a digression but a few years later the lincoln secretary of state, talking to his russian counterpart scissor got this boring extension of siberia on the states. instead of cable see what what i got on me. [laughter] maybes on the side of the united states after all. for in a way critical thing. and this is a bit i like. i make it a crux point. i don't believe in anything like that even that mr. jefferson and i have the same birthday. the birthday the night stays, the fourth of july is also the date at which the louisiana purchase is announced. it's in washington. and happier still, later the afternoon that day at lewis and clarke received the disease ructions to depart from pittsburgh and go west. and jefferson is able to tell them not to meet with in treatment indian nations. he urges on them always to truth the greatest of respect. ask them to enter into negotiations with washington. he's able to tell them what they can now tell these indian leaders, which is gentlemen, you are to live in the united state states. the rate of the emperor of france is over and will never come back. the spanish and not coming back either, you are americans already. so on that fourth of july sable is sent off the greatest enlightenment expedition ever founded. there is a word for orientalism the way napoleon had around the same time had all kinds of artists and scientists and geographers and seismologists. botanists and anthropologists to egypt. we called it orientalism. occidental's is what mr. jefferson was practicing. he made sure they went to philadelphia, the great city of enlightenment. for a long course and astronomy to guide themselves by the stars through navigation. the curing of cholera not of cholera of smallpox. a big apartment. not the digression here. jefferson vaccinated everyone on his estate including the people of property against smallpox. he was a great partisan even the message i wish it could be kept cool. not liz's foursome is transported. losing its purpose. he discovered keeping it cold, with water or ice it could be taken quite a long distance. so was taught how to administer smallpox junctions which was a small compensation for the what was done to smallpox to the new world by the colonists. timothy dwight, famous of the time was known as the founder of gail, took the view that fox nation get smallpox was an interference of god's design should not be practiced. i suppose he would have to be right because it would be guarded to smallpox in the first place. it was a creationist. so, in all of these other ways trained in all these matters, navigation, agriculture given seeds to take with them. on how to keep cuttings and bring back specimens of bottoming on return produced genuinely a scientific expedition. of course by the time it was over could be safely said that the united states would one day extend as far as california and oregon. which of course it eventually did. mr. lincoln's greatest ambition was to go to california. even he as president never got to do. of course mr. jefferson desha by the time the jefferson presidency was done we know there's going to major country for the united states of america. and everyone else in the world knows cannot be messed around with militarily. and it has a revolutionary manifesto. somewhere about the person and now constitution. the whole wheel of history returns and enormously in the jefferson years. i left slavery to the last because i had to. it also touches all the other it's a threat throughout the whole thing. jefferson tried when he was a young member under british rule to have at least the right of manumission as it was called for the right of slave owners to say liberate another slave. that's something you allowed to do. weren't able to set that example for that. you know to have a clause included that would ban, not just the trade but the trade in slaves or the beholding of slaves. did not get that written in. the constitutional convention did succeed in having slavery prevented in the northwest territories. tried their best to do so pass the relevant -- in his notes on the state of virginia, which i strongly recommend that you rea read, good abolitionist pros who don't really need to even read frederick douglass of maryland. all of the arguments against slavery are in there already. not just the degrading it has upon the slaves themselves, which is so to speak taking advantage of. but the extremely degrading and dehumanizing effects and has on those who profit from it, hold other people as property. probably not being put any better. we can add, with pride, that the slave trader the barbary states put down by american force. good. but when the united states is doubled in size by the louisiana purchase, and when a whole new world another chance for whole new start is presented, thomas paine and joe barlow, two of his closest friends go to the president. do not have any slave into louisiana. do not let anyone in new orleans, goa get some good german immigrants and settlers. get them settled on the land. and allow for free slaves from other states to come given ground in louisiana we can start again. jefferson said no. because he was afraid of what happened in haiti. he was afraid of the haitian resolution. and gain general support for evolutionary. if it wasn't for the revolution, there would not be the united states. if it wasn't for the haitian revolution, which we are in an acknowledged debt. napoleon would not have lost his army would not of gone bankrupt. will never forget this. but jefferson did not like the idea and seconds, the crucial thing for louisiana was a sugar crop. in the sugar crop, getting to a half and i should stop in a second period but you stop being spellbinding after 45 minutes. if you are spellbinding you don't need 45 minutes. glad to see new and stirred. [laughter] i don't mind them looking i hate it when they start shaking. [laughter] so to point to a technique for the enlightenment, the discovery of wonderful new techniques is not always progressive, it's not revolution is not emancipating. the cotton gin is a wonderful discovery. it really is. but unfortunately makes cotton a lot more -- mixed ever going to stop being labor-intensive. that's one thing that does emancipate people continues to hold them in slavery now the sugar industry takes over. the sugar harvest isn't cut and brought in quickly, the caribbean islands they will dominate the trade and jefferson decides to capitulate. the chancellor slate say there's a new start is lost. consciously lost because he had the advice to not do it. because of the enormous size of the louisiana purchase, it's going to be carving and cloning into new states all the time. they've already begun to do so. and it means that by the end of this process, in other words the huge extension of slavery that very, very soon but by the time of the jefferson's death, the number of states would be approximately equal. the state of affairs which is in a very momentous speech by abraham lincoln who says he doesn't think the union can endure half slave half free. they have to concede this is a state of affair gifted and pass on to him by mr. jefferson prayed that terrible irony for those who believe in the american ideal. well, i think that, the hand of time is on the perk of noon. someone will correct me if i'm wrong. and i think i have sketched for you why jefferson is fascinatin fascinating. and wise i close my book in saying, i believe history is not a morality tale but a tragedy. >> it be nice to have you as my prisoner and i'm now happy to be your hostage. >> [applause] [applause] of you have questions ladies and gentle please go to the microphone in the middle of the room to ask them. >> thank you for your talk. thank you sir. i recently heard in the declaration the first line jefferson had written we hold these truths to be sacred and alterable. and then franklin revised it to say we hold these truths to be self-evident. i am running, jefferson's original formulation does not sound enlightenment as franklin spirit i mourn if you have any thoughts about that? i mean words are kind of symbolic of our underlining experiences. i think it is a distinction with the difference if we would had sacred instead of self evident. >> you are quite right. the sacred is not necessarily have to have a nonsecular meeting. you're certainly right, to the best of my knowledge to have a feeling it's in jerry weinberg's excellent new book. but the term self-evident is hi his. member this is quite an impressive drafting committee they've got there. they have jefferson and several other gifted people prayed they also have the collected works of sean locke pretty fit look at them and compare the final document. [inaudible] [laughter] word for word almost for example which says people are likely, often will put up with their tremendous amount of oppression and inconvenience if they see no other way of living. you can load them with more and more taxes and so forth. when a long train of abuses and so forth culminates in they will rebel. that is almost word for word. if franklin had been the chief drafter instead of what of the committee, there might have even been a joke in there. but with jefferson you could be absolute sure there would not be. one of the sad things about writing about him is to discover he had absolutely no sense of humor at all. and the proof of this as he thought tristen shandy was a hilarious book. [laughter] and would reddit aloud to his wife and have her, sally's half-sister, reddit to him on the long winter evenings. you just have to pick sure that for a laugh fast. [laughter] >> i greatly enjoyed your exposing the various issues that your book has. in the little details you have given us predecided for your birthday, july 4, what was the primary interest or stimulus for you to tackle or study about jefferson? >> jefferson was not born on the fourth of july neither my. i may have run those two things together. in fact even though i was born april 14 and so is he, he was born on april the 20 something. he was born under the old calendar. i often wonder what the astrologers did,. [laughter] when everyone had to shift over. if jefferson would've stated aries. on his tombstones it gives both dates. why was i interested in him? i would've never proposed writing a book about him. when i was asked to do so i thought yes, almost immediately because everything one writes about america is it some weight writing about jefferson. as i say, there are several others i would say were necessary. obviously lincoln. certainly roosevelt. these are quite short periods in time. jefferson's right there from the beginning. the group prior to that he final appeal to king george the vindication. then harris where he helped to draft up the declaration of man. the for simon to been made in french soil became a universal situation. then it's interesting, vice president the contest, all of this than the war the barbary states. then the attempt to use international sanctions for the first time ever as a means of preventing war. the reason the second time is such a disappointment. he thanks the economic warfare of the boycott will embargo bring an end to the war with france and the constant raids on american shipping. and i actually do think had it been given a bit more time it would have worked. it's the first time anyone has tried that. let alone a superpower. and then, more papers than most people could read in a lifetime. designing a wonderful library. helping out the library of congress after the burning of 1812. the university of virginia and the jefferson bible. which i also recommend everyone read. the church probably has a good addition the force church. jefferson had the bible in one hand and a pair of scissors know a razor in the other. and cut out all the bits that were mad or immoral or mythical or self-contradictory. otherwise wicked or absurd living with you can see a fairly short book. [laughter] assesses conjugation to enlightenment. it was just one of his retirement jokes but he could do it in all different languages. so, that's why wanted to write about him. >> thank you very much it has been enlightening. i'm wondering if for another reason for your writing might have something to do with past being prologue for the future. i heard you say that jefferson was in favor of exporting democracy through violence. starting a preemptive war overseas without consulting congress. his attitude toward religion strikes me is vaguely familiar concepts today. i am wondering what you think jefferson's attitude might be toward the current political frame of mind? thank you. i'm glad i did not trail that code in vain. [laughter] thing about you note the passing prologue step is very well. it's very, very difficult to ask what anyone would do much beyond their lifetime. i wrote about georgia over once he died in 1951. what he wrote in the topics he'd written on, i disagreed with mary mccarthy and others said he would've supported the vietnam war if you are still live pretty thought i could prove it about what he wrote about indochina and his attitude toward the empire as well as to communism was pretty phallic i had a reasonable shot. that's only extending matters by a couple of decades really. what he would've thought much beyond 1984 as it were he was to come back, the things that would astonish him would be most of all i think but we call mixed. i think it's a city term marriage. in other words he be amazed to see how many descendents he and saudi had. where were they were living and with whom. and how many were living on the white side of the color line. since at least the census of all of his children were registered as white in that head count for example. the extent of that would amaze him. as a be the person with limited. something amazing about his indifference on this point. he never says anything about the rights of women. without their grading during doing perfectly well exactly where they were. he would be astounded by american girls shall we say. the girls these days. [laughter] and he'd be appalled that we had not yet conquered canada. [laughter] that would have really -- you mean to say that the british flag still flies? how the young men of america bennett sleep? where's their honor was their fire? it's a disgraceful state of affairs. what he would've sat about our current difficulty really don't know. he certainly, had had warning from the ambassador of tripoli in the meeting they had with sean adams in london over radical islam. they gave us the right to make slaves or kill but we claimant as a religious right. on behalf of our king. the culmination of the two would be very powerful obviously. and so yes one can extrapolate that. i think use the term preemptive war. as you see with iraq fighting is been going on all this time anyway, never stopped. wasn't really even a cease-fire 1991. they were preemptive maybe the wrong one. a million and half europeans had been enslaved in the country's going on as a regular business. stopping it is not really preemptive. the factor should be impeached if you don't do it. you should know your country's enemies are and deal with them. by force. and that is what he did. i note that spirit is not the current one. [laughter] we don't have stomach for it. rather the greeks used to call -- they were so frightened that they would not name them. they would not say. they would say the amenities the kindly ones. call than that. it might be nice. it's like baltimore's. people now say, people call. [inaudible] with his plan for an ultimate -- based on the taliban with the intention of annexing and overcoming all of its neighbors. uses the methods of beheading and torture and sabotage of schools and hospitals. and even mosques. it's a human insurgent, i will try to make nice with someone who has that point. they're trying to hope we don't have to fight these people we will them. it is contemptible. i don't think i need to -- on jefferson's authority say that. >> may be sitting down, i don't mind. i'm sorry. i'm afraid our friends from c-span need you to. sorry about that. >> just very briefly could you elaborate on your knowledge of his poetry writing, when he started in over his lifetime? >> i don't know any jefferson poetry. i mean i know that he had a great command of it. he was able to quote a lot of it from latin and greek as well. but if he wrote any noah. he doesn't seem to me to it be the poetic type i have to say. there is a ghastly little sort of sample verse very near the end of his life. i think it it's inverse. it's really very sickly thing about his dead children. being angels or i can't even bear to think about it. it is written to try to cheer up his younger daughter about her dead sisters. it was a weak moment. sorry i can't be of any more >> high just curious about what happened to those million and half people who ended up in north africa? they blame it with a population? are the some of them still enslaved? we know the blacks here in this country, what happened to the whites that went up there? >> there are number of memoirs of them. some escaped. and on like those africans who were unlucky enough to be taken into the middle passage and then to america, numbers were on the way never seeing africa again. these people could be ransomed for there's a huge amount of activity. in a town like this about that time would have been every sunday service a short talk about what was happening. a request for money to try to redeem or ransom people. it was partly a racket. it's partly protection racket as well. you can patent not be enslaved. if you were you or kapadia be ransomed. some of them are ransomed. we have extraordinary memoirs of them. hug my head it should be able to recommend it was one book. it's called captives by a very good english historian, linda coley who is greatly enhanced our knowledge of this. i think that gives the best account. men were put to work in the desert and elsewhere. and died as slaves. they were worked to death. many died in jail where they were held as possible objects of bargaining and ransom until someone would raise the money for them they often died of maltreatment there. some of them, the young ones were sold into prostitution. into child brothels and reports along north africa. and that is the story. afraid it's what you would expect. there are, i have noticed quite a lot of light-skinned people, especially in morocco. and it's a certain advantage. there might've been prohibition of any kind on intermarriage. not that there really was in america either. i hate to say, i won't use the word racial because i don't believe our species is subdivided into race but you know what i mean, black, white, was. [inaudible] i don't have to draw picture. you may have been some of that too. and many we just don't know, they vanished. they vanished. they vanish from history to until recent history. >> slaves today? >> know the slavery in north africa, has almost always licensed by the quran, the sum in chad. as a good deal in sudan of course. i don't think -- i'm sure it's not still legal in morocco or algeria. in the sort of saharan belt is more than people just trafficking, there is indentured slavery yes. >> and those people would be the descendents of the same profiteers? >> we know the names of the people who became rich in west africa by selling their kinsman. we know the family fortunes are and west africa. in a lot of cases. it's the cases of for example. so if the reparations are given which some people want to reopen and i consider very interesting argument, is it a reopen? is it a question of who should be paid very hard but possible who should be paid would be interesting to prove we would know in some cases which african potentates should be made to cough up some money. so i say bring it on. assuming their people this from the don't know this already. my general experiences people don't. instruct our children what the cost of all of this was. sir. >> i'm curious to hear your views on the thing that was probably the most popular thing that jefferson did in his lifetime in retrospect, still doesn't seemed like a very bright idea and that was his embargoes. >> i didn't mention the embargoes a bit saying it was the first time anyone tried to use economic diplomacy instead of warfare as a composition of a dispute. the problem with it, really is the united states have a coastline out of order for far too long. at least it did then. including with the awful fact of canada and presented so much. if you are in say upstate vermont, and someone comes around from the exxon office and says you can't trade this way any more because the president wants to get a peace agreement between britain, france and the united states, going to say well i'll just wait to leave. it's not popular at all. jefferson thought okay that will happen of course people will resent how much they really, really really did. especially along this coast. the americas. but he thought no, never mind will have a long effect people start doing for what would now call import substitution. instead of importing things will start to try to manufacture for themselves. there is a lot of import substitution done. people began to invest in the idea of making it in america instead of importing it. the argument still goes on of course. in the end, congress, is to unpopular we will never know if it ever worked. the french was weakening at that point considerably peyton jefferson also discussed setting up something like the united nations for an international confederation to put down things like piracy but also to avoid war to mutually reduce the side of navies for competition and open up spanish america by giving spain to loosen its hold on that did not come to any thing in their lifetimes either. please what you think jefferson would think about the iraq adventure we are in now? we see out have to submit myself to the safekeeping of other civilians, when two ladies and gentlemen said not already answer that question? i am relieved. sir. [laughter] pay attention in the back. [laughter] did anything surprise you doing your research writing this book about jefferson? any surprises? >> yes. i thought i knew about the sally hemmings relationship, more or less everybody does. there's a small group that holds out that says a dna evidence is not completely inclusive. it could have been another mail jefferson around the same time around the same place. but that may not even be technically true. but if it is, i don't think it can possibly cancel the argument that my friend annette gordon reed made in her brilliant book that i strongly recommend is just called thomas jefferson and sally hemmings. an american story. that is the subtitle. before she did all this work before the dna test was run. and when you know that sally was not his property but his wife's half-sister. they have the same father and grandfather both were english. anglo. that she was a privilege house servant that was in the room when martha died in her jefferson say to his wife he promised he would never marry again. they meet on french soil. slavery is illegal so he doesn't need any extra staff at the american embassy he asks her she would like to stay and join his staff. and then his letters show, expenses for clothing for her and for a separate place for her to live. i don't think i need to draw you one of those pictures i keep mentioning. the critical thing to now i think and is discovered so brilliantly, when jefferson's little daughter died, he couldn't stand it. there'd been so much death pretty he must have the remaining when brought to him in paris paris where the old one already was. you must send her over i cannot bear any more of this i want to have them with me. any sense to his cousins and he says you might send, he mentioned some old slave woman who is a respectable person to bring the child across. but while the letters in transit he doesn't know the older woman has become pregnant again can't make the trip. so we are consulting and his cousin say the only girl we can think of the only slave we've caught who could do it who is smart and bright and so on is sally. will give the child to sally and they'll cross together together. jefferson meets them, not knowing is going to be escorting his daughter. the plan was for the other woman to go home he doesn't let sally hemmings go home pretty asks her to stay. and though i defend them, here's what i think. i think when he saw sally getting off that vote he thought maybe there is a god after all. [laughter] that is what i think he said. it couldn't really be any plainer. smacks of none of this really asked for surprise okay. so i felt i knew all of that. but what i realized as they went through it. and with the help sean help of annette is that we were accustomed to argue like this. would jefferson's and have done? could he have been all about. part of the awful implication that he would not have allowed himself for a black person or a slave depending on which jefferson you take. as it were beneath him. gary wills, historian i normally admire, i've learned a lot from made the outrageous suggestion sally was a prostitute. that she would sleep with anyone on the estate for money. there is no at all pray there's nothing to support that charge. but what if, as annette proposes, what if sonny hemmings had a say in this? what if she got here i am in paris, he's asked me to it stay. slave early entrance slavery is illegal here. my brother is being taught to be a cook to do french dishes. it's a lot nicer than the mountaintop in virginia. the guys obviously under pressure. he is a widower, but he still as it were a man. i could do worse. it's an upgrade. [laughter] and what she may well it's said to him is, okay, but if i have any children they are not going to be slaves mr. jefferson. that seems to be with the bargain whispered because all of her children were free, his children by her were free. and no other slaves were. and so is she. by law you may not say that acting as if you've made a bargain proved she made when, you can deduce it as evidence that it was made. if you look at it like that and imagine her as a partner in it, which i think it's only fair to do since she was obviously a smart, tough brave girl. when you think this is what i propose in my book. why not consider her not as a scandal or an object of shamer's discussed, but one of america's founding mothers. not buried under the hampton inn i think it is, the courtyard in charlottesville, under its parking lot. maybe we could do something about that. and just in closing, was the direct ascent of the coolidge family of thomas jefferson and a senior member of the family and monticello, he refuses now to go to anymore of the family reunions. they won't allow sally's children to be buried in the family graveyard on the mountainside. they still want. but he has produced himself a book, a wonderful book of photographs of all of the descendents. several dozen of them. that is the perfect reputation of jefferson's belief that the slaves should be free they would have to depart from the united states once they were free. they could not stay on. could be leaving the united states. it's a perfect reputation and practice. the pessimism that poisoned his life in a such a blot on his record. a lot of that was new to me as i hoped it is to you. i thought it was worth the speculation. >> thank you so much for your insights. >> it's been a pleasure. thank you. [applause] [applause] >> you been watching book tv on cspan2. while on saturday evenings this summer we have had a binge watch series. this evening we are focusing on the late author and essayist christopher hitchens. we just saw program from 2006 bright up next day program from 2007. mr. hitchens joined our in-depth program to take calls from viewers and to talk about his work. here it is. >> christopher hitchens, when people meet you for the first time, what is the first topic they want to talk to about? >> guest: what. at the moment it is certainly religion of one form of another. and that is been true for a while. there be a high chance would be unspiritual subjects. on the m