Transcripts For CSPAN2 Summer Series With David McCullough 20240712

They gavel it is session saturday morning and ten eastern. Watch the debate live on cspan good evening. Every saturday night throughout the summer, book tv is putting on several hours of a wellknown author. Kind of hard twisted on binge watching. Tonight teacherg author is historian David Mccullough for it is author of a dozen books including bestselling histories, on the american revolutions, and the invention of mans spacefligh for some ofe Northwest Territory in the creation of the brooklyn bridge. Hes a two time winner about Pulitzer Prize and the National Book of board and his appearance he over 75 times. And coming up over the next several hours, we will show you some of those programs. S. First up in 1992, they appear on cspans program to talk about his biography of president harry truman. The book won thepr pulitzer prie biography would have changed the view on the truman presidency. Here is David Mccullough from 1992. You start out by saying im a as far back as nearly as he could remember, truman had held to the ideal of the mythical roman hero. What is that all about. David will cincinnatus was the mythical hero who left the plow, the farm to go to the aid of his country in time of war and became a gary and great general. And was victorious and then he renounced all of his power and returned to farm. That is the same that this country was founded on. If you go to the rotunda and the uuppercaseletter look at the great many of the tremble of George Washington. Turning over his powers as commanderinchief in the army to the congress. The cincinnatus similar alternet painting. Because the Founding Fathers really believe that this is what democracy entailed. It meant that citizenship method any citizen should be called could be called upon it anytime to Service Country or her country in any capacity including the greatest power. In the power belong to the people therefore the power would be returned byow this and held t for a free time. And truman like to say try never to forget who i was. Breaking from, and where we go back to. That is the cincinnatus theme obviously but it also shows that he is who he was pretty new he was. And he proud of who he was. In the return to independence, after he left the office of the presidency in 1953 was his way of his actions speak louder than his words but when he got home, he found that he was living up to the idea was not as he expected. While we all remember i think with affection, the harry truman of independence missouri was walking the same streets of the town he grownnd up in. Adjusting citizen truman, neighbor truman once again. It was all of that easy for him pretty missed washington and the pressure the stimulation in the excitement of washington. In order to understand truman, you have to understand it seems to me, life in jackson county. He lived nearly 70 years there pretty proved almost 90 spent 20 years as a senator in washington as a Vice President and eventually president s. Peter the year that he went back was wet. David honey 53 when he took the oath of office as a 44th president. When eisenhower took the oath down offtruman walked of the perform he was right back down on ground level again. In the pension and allows, no office space. No secret service cards. His only income was his army pension which was aon hundred ad 19 a month. He got the train and the president general eisenhower and given him or low temp the president ial parlor car, like a railroad car. It had belonged to Franklin Roosevelt. To write home to independence. In all the way across the country, he was greeted it one town after another by the crowds who would come down to the station to see him. He got restless and he got up and walk around. He was just a regular passenger train. In the presence train was full of regular passengers. He just walked up and down the train and said hello to everybody. Unless part of his life in many ways, is as fulfilling and happy and interesting part of his life is all the rest of them. Is it great story, harry truman. A mask sometimes did you do truman. And many obvious reasons but one of them certainly is for me, as a writer is wonderful story and the story of his retirement two years. His best the polling quizzes the billing for me to write is almost anything in the book. 1117 pages. David including starkness. Correct. If he stopped there then it would be 92 pages of text. David the big problem was to keep it to one volume. I was determined that it would not be two volumes biography. I wanted it all in one volume. And i wanted to be a big book. I didnt know its going to wind up quite as big as this. But its a big subject, i think life. In the span the art of his life is really, a chronicle of American Life in those years. He goes from what is essentially a jeffersonian, jacksonian american, farms and small towns which eat experience directly as a boy growing up in a small town. In a former 11 some years. To a country that the nation had described to the world with our based primarily on industrial technological and scientific accomplishments. Peter so his 19 sit tribune. David he was born in all manner of speech, have an thought taste everything. For that. Before the First World War. Yet he has to face the most momentous of all decisions of the 20th century. But which theoretically he was not prepared but we were not prepared as a country either. To me is like bunyans pilgrims progress. He has his complications and ordeals the difficulties that he is overcome and get beyond. Each one that represent something which to me symbolizes the history of our country. This is a book about america me. And i wanted it to be as much a book about america as it was very truman. Peter will only have a short hours. E im going to stick with the last chapter and also some of your notes here. So we can write can help myself michael all over the police. In this last chapter because its relevant today, you talk about that harry truman and his wife got inot the room card aftr he was president and rocked by themselves to the stamford into new york. Took about that. David h had a chrysler need lod driving an. Which is interesting because it was one of the few recreations he had. He didnt know how to play any sports. He didnt play golf, he did not play tennis. He didnt even know how to dance. So driving an automobile in reading and walking were his primary recreations. Anybody knew chrysler. And as he said, he wanted to give it a workout. So cute but decided he would drive from independence back to washington. And friends tried to dissuade them from doing that. They were determined and they set off the car and it was an adventure in itself because every town they came to people would of course recognize them and the police would get very concerned that they were in town and would worry about their safety and for that something happened to them, it would be the fault of the local police so they would literally pressure them out of town. As quickly as possible. Mr. Truman like to drive quite fast. Above the speed limit. And miss missus truman did not approve of that so she would have him hold to the seat speed limit so as a consequence of all they often be passed. People who passed by ammon park and they would recognize them. There was a former president of the United States and his wife driving along the highway. In the cars would drop back and pass them again just to see if there eyes were playing tricks on them. Truman journey. Said there goes our incognito. And then when they arrived in many ofon, all of the the press corps would cover him drove out to maryland. It would think about the beard was coming the wood for the car cement and they will follow him. And he loved that. When he stopped at mayflower got out, he had shirtsleeves on, driving the car. The crowd all gathered around. Traffic backed up. And the cause quite a commotion. And then they drove up to new york to see margaret clewiston living in new york went to some shows, which is seen on the town. And they went to restaurants. Just like anybody who lives in new york. And again, causing a commotion. Taxicabs would pull over to the curb and drive out and say hi harry youre my man and all that. And then on the way that, on pennsylvania turnpike, a state trooper pulled him over. Apparently he had been cutting people too closely when he passed them. They said the trooper just wanted to say hello to them and shake his hand. And that was the last automobile trip the day attempted. From then on they would go by train or plane or boat. And when they went to europe. There had been an attempted assassination in the number of president s had been assessing assassinated. Why would the government have protections for himid pretty. David they didnt do it. Army officers and pensions everybody else but not the rated becky had very little money. To borrow money. Quite secretly. Which dean assigned brent to take the tobacco. This is not well known. It is a meaning didnt have any money did have money but he needed some cash to cover all of the of moving out of the white house. When he got home in order to to provide himself some income, he undertook the writing of his autobiography, his memoirs. No the president never done except for herbert hoover. Hoover time in office was much briefer than was in trumans and trumans presidency covered far more tumultuous history. So to undertake that twovolume memoir is very major ambitious task and then he built his library. They been a previous president ial library, Franklin Roosevelt library but it was established after roosevelt died in office. So truman was the first president to actually officiate on the establishment of the president ial library. There again, he was beginning something new. I think one of the things i try to imply or to emphasize the book is that truman is part of a very creative public figure. As a creative president. He didnt filter all of his life. He built roads and courthouses. When at washington, when he became president he built the famous Truman Company in the back of the white house which caused a great flurry of criticism. And then of course, is the one who entirely rebuilt the white house. The white house we havere today, is really the house that harry built. Except for the outer shell which is maintained to the original outer shell. The entire interior and the reconstruction of the original house. And he took part in every detail but that reconstruction. He loved it. He loved building the leftoo creating. And of course, in a larger way, his presidency is marked with such creative and innovative acts as a marshall plan. And truman doctrine and nato and so forth. So to again be a builder in this last chapter of his life, appealed to him tremendously. And in the library, building the library and having his office at the library, welcoming guests there and taking people around the library became his life. Except for his troubles when he went toli europe. Peter did you ever meet him pretty. David no i saw him once when i was a youngster. One of my first jobs in new york, i was very starry eyed. I got the job at a new magazine called sports illustrated. Those coming home from work one night. With a different brooklyn. I came out of the subway stop at the george hotel. The big car pulled up to bradys small crowd waiting. The big car pulled and the governor said stepped out and ive never seen governor reports was quite excited about that. So out stepped former president truman. I was just astonished. I remember thinking myy god hes in color. Because we only had blackandwhite television. Cablackandwhite newspaper. I think the fact they get very hot color. He radiated good health. It made him seem very just vital. He certainly didnt seem like a little meant to me. To me at that moment, he was 6foot eight. But i never spoke to him, never met him. I often thought to be interesting if you go back in time and i could reach out and touch him on the shoulder in 1956 that fall i did see mr. President , i am going to write your biography someday. Peter knowing what you know about him, what you think you would think about this. David im sure some of that he wouldnt like. Because this is after all, an honest attempt to see the complete man with his flaws and faults. But i would hope that in some, he would think that i had understood him but of the known for people booked up. I think he was a much more complicated complex keenly intelligent man. Thoughtful, considerate man the stereotype. Truman portrait. He is it james whitmore. These nothing of it just a kind of salty downhome missouri will rogers. All of the people that ive interviewed and have him and work with him and for the white house with him, theyll say please understand this man was much more than met the eye. Peter how many interviews did you do. David 126. The range across a broad spectrum. Some people who are the new event all of us often come and go as neighbors or independents. And also some of whom were so important that i interviewed them many times over during the ten years it took me to read the book. Peter who did you spend the most time with. David i would guess a total perhaps either Margaret Truman his daughter or george elsie who is white house staff. And clark clifford. Is on the secretif service peope who are invaluable because we were with him all of the time. And so many of whom have never been interviewed before about him. Peter are secret Service Allowed to a talk about it after the fact. David apparently so. Theyre wonderful because they saw him offstage. They saw himco under all conditions. And often under enormous tension. And he mentioned the attempted assassination. By two of the secret serviceman youre still here in washington. They walked me through the whole event. Both inside and outside clear housework took place. Spent the better part of one saturday doing that. I dont think, im sure this never done before. So my account of that, is based on material that can only be had by reaching that time through living people. In their devotion to him is a very compelling thing toco listn to. To and its true of all of the people who work for him at all levels. He not find a Single Person who knew him welcome worked with him he wanted to tell me what is terrible backstage temper was what an ungrateful or difficult policy was to work with. In the close of the people were to him, they were devoted to him and they liked him predict and awake at tubbing i would find some people who really did not like him who had some skeletons to pull out of the closet. But that never happened. I started this in 1982, ten yearse ago. Peter what was the reason pretty. David well, i was looking for a subject for a night started working a book about picasso. I had to go around the barn with Pablo Picasso around the barn beforemo he found truman. To me, he was a repellent human being. It didnt really have a story at the time that interested me. He was instantly successful. He never really went very far or had any adventures so to speak. He was immensely important player. He was great with modern arch. But he found his treatment of his family, send towed towards women, he was a somebody i to spend five years with. As a roommate so to speak. In my editor at the time and jump Simon Schuster suggest that we do Franklin Roosevelt because at that time there was not a good biography of Franklin Roosevelt. Impulse, just an additional way snow, im going to do a 20th century president it would be harry truman. And he said well, why not harry truman predict so looked into it i found that there was not a good biography of harry truman. Complete life and times. The last chapter that you are talking about, that part of his life hass never been written about before. They comprised of 20 years of his life. A very important part of hisrs life. And beyond that, there was his immense collection of letters rsand diaries he poured himself, paper, all of his life and he left a written personal, very revealing record unlike that of any other present the north and im sure will never have another president that leaps anything like that. We dont write splitters much anymore we dont keep diaries much anymore. I did build his own life and multicore he ever realized it and he would be a figure in history predict and one month to give you an example in 1947, when he was president and when onhis wife was back in independence looking after her mother. Harry truman, the president of the unitedth states whichever 37 times. And these were just simple how are use in the weather is turning cool or whatever. These were real letters. Did you ever find out how hero them, for the in longhand. David yes, he had wonderful clear straightforward strong and ready. Just like he was. But fortunately, very legible. There was never a problem reading his handwriting and very seldom understanding what he was talking about. Peter likely his wife called their daughter margaret every night. In new york. David yes. Yes. They work very very close. Theos same people were living in secret Service Agents or is white house staff. Domestic staff. In the mention. They said they were by far the closest they had known in the white house. Though they dont want to be quoted, by person elsie truman was their favorite president. It was the first president ever to walk out into the kitchen. In their memory to ever walk out into the kitchen. To thank the chef cooks for the dinner that night. They remember Calvin Coolidge coming out once or twice but they felt it was perhaps to see if anybody was taking food. Interment knew everybody by name on staff. All of the families. And this was sort of the politicians device. This is the way he was. And the whole give them harry, harry truman on the job, at the office, in the white house and with his people. The loss of art or the highest level never give anybody a hack. He never raised his voice. If anything is remembered for being considerate. And part small favors and courtesies he would do. Peter i get back to prison truman. Quality born. It is my new 1933. The third of four sons. My family lived in pittsburgh for many many generations. I grow up in a very happy household. My own children i told me, you have no chance of ever being serious writer pop because it to copy of a childhood. Peter what did your parents do pretty. David andi Electrical Supply business, and Electric Company which is still in business. One of my brothers now runs it braided my father had that. And when tl university. When i cannot appeal, i was determined to go down to new york get a job writing either in a magazine or a newspaper. Peter how did you get a deal. David i guess it did well enough on thee College Boards exams and i had pretty good grades in high school. In my two older brothers with her. This seemed to help those days. I was an english major and minor did fine arts. Ima was torn but i wanted to bea writer or painter. I never imagined that i would be writing history in biographies. I feel my work that i am working in school, following a tradition adof school of other writers hae not been trained academically. As the story is better writers who are working the path the way that a Foreign Correspondent might work in another country. People like Barbara Tuchman, bruschetta, and others. Lots of them. Ss i suppose relaxed journalists. Peter you came to new york for what reason. Peterdavid to find a job. I tried to get a job in the new york herald. Another magazine. In time life. I was hired time like to be a trainee at sports illustrated. And i stayed there for almost five and half years pretty then when john kennedy was elected, came down to washington to be partwa of the new frontier. I were to the u. S. Information, endan farrell was running it whh was very exciting. But after the president was killed and after merrill was the open leaving his post. I would back to new york to work for an editor and writer and American Heritage magazine. The publishing company. In my major effort there was teacher history of world war ii. It is still in print. At that point i started writing my first book which was at night and weekends. Ch but, published in 1968. Peter how many other books pretty. David this is my sixth book. Peter during this ten year period from 1982 1992 is your duty other books pretty what published a collection of essays which came out last year called great companions. No, no other books pretty but due to i a good deal on television. Ive been theon host of the smithsonian world series in public television. And lately last five years the American Experience series. And narrated a number of other documentaries like the programs, of the civil war. Peter the voice, you can hear the voice over 11 episodes of the civil war. Did you get much reaction from people. David yes, i o do often rated Common Airline ticket counter or board something or a restaurant or somebodys heads. Brandon say the civil war. That was a big undertaking. Its almost walltowall narration. So i felt like id been in the game all 60 minutes was never seen. But it was a privilege to be part of that series. It was a wonderful project. Dan burns is a major figure in broadcasting today. They defied all of the experts predict the conventional wisdom about television was that nobody was interested in a serious programming documentary programming and certainly nobody would watch anything that went on forrt the many hours. Peter how much time did you do much that. David as i recall it took about four and half years. I actually winding up taking longer than it took to fight the war. Peter in the notes in the back, you acknowledge that you talkk a lot about your family. Rather than a write it. How many kids and how many were involved in this pretty. Peter . David. David we have five child, theyll help me in one way or another. One son trammell from france. He help me extensively. In that same novella took the photo of me on the back of the book, bill and jeffrey, was another son, help with research on the, capitol hill. The library of congress not himself with either research or sustaining the father through difficult times in the book is dedicated to her youngest daughter. We did very valuable work helping with research and restoration of the white house. More thang or that, was with mye and me all the way through this ten years. I meant to washington to do the smithsonian series when i was 50 years old. Which is exactly the time truman came to washington as a senator. We came with one another it was a o teenager as margaret was th. More than a very small apartment we made all of these investments is once does. So i felt a certain empathy when writing about truman. In the senatorial years. I think is very very valuable for me to write a book to have here. Talk about in order to better understand the fossil recordun study, and thehe living form. When studying the historical record about the senate, in the white house in the wake the bureaucracy works in the press works pretty everything about washington. It helped to study the living forms as well as the historical records. Peter and baker, you ran one night what right after Roosevelt David yes. For the mostt dramatic moments n the whole story is when truman, the evening of roosevelts death, summoned from the white house by the press secretary steve Ehrlichman Truman was having a drink with sam. Vote was known as the board of education. The hideaway. Somehow side. We would meet after work every day for a drink. And im getting the message that he was to come at once. The white house and left raburns office ran back to his own office onto his Vice President s office on the senate side. I wanted to make it run. For one thing, i wanted to do it in order to find out what time he was dependent various places. Knew how fast he walked. So you dont how long it took him to walk over and a time to walk the Vice President s office over to the hideaway. You cant just start running through the capital. So i called baker and i asked him if he could arrange for me to make the run the same time. I said oh, i know what you want to do that. He said, yes, i will arrange but only the condition that i can run with you. So as to white house, to Capitol Police as our escorts we made the run. We were coming along through the whole and if you run through the stone house at the capital, with four men with the street tucson, is the thunderous sound. We came up to where the height white house the Capital Police have kind of a rest area, and an office and heard this noise. And there were four or five of them and they came out into the halls to see what was going on. Whole ofed at the course what they saw was one capital placement running straight for them. Seemingly being chased by two guys in suits, civilian suits with another capital placement chasing from behind. On the Capitol Police as we can see, looked very apprehensive as we came charging person. As we got up to them, the capital officer who was at the front said to them, dont ask. [laughter]. Never could possibly explain to you what was happening. We did make a run of the long run. It was very worthwhile. Its interesting point because herman said later that he did not think. It did not occur to him that the president was dead. He thought hed come back secretly and wanted to confirm with him about something. But he didnt think the president was dead. Why was he running. If he didnt think that. And if he did know the present was dead, but he think he was running towards. What was he running away from. Thor movie, film, you can almost see a freezeframe on that moment where he is running down the hall. Ive course by then, is the president of the United States. He is with his running alone, is no capital cards. Our baker with him pretty is running alone. If he knew, he had to have known subconsciously, something. They arrives at the goodness is up to the family quarters a subtopic of the elevator. And missus roosevelt comes forward and puts her arm in her hand on his arm and says, very softly, harry, the president is dead. I feel this is a very revealing moment about. Truman. If you think about how he mightve responded. First he didnt say anything. But when he was able to speak he said to her, is there anything i can do for you. In a four she says to him, no harry. Is there anything we can do for you. You are the one in trouble now. He is character on an odyssey was in trouble that one kind or another much of his life. Then he is to rise to the occasion weathers to run farm with a when his father dies or to beth an officer in artillery battery. More work one of whether its to be a senator, emerging from the shadow of the stigma of his organization background. I always to get out of the hole so to speak. But it this is the biggest he is ever and when he suddenly present because roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt and told him nothing. Most people know he had been told nothing by the president about the atomic bomb. The dazzling part of it. He was told nothing about anything. I roosevelt. Which was not only irresponsible roosevelts part but unkind. So when missus roosevelt said you wanted trouble now she knew what she was talking about. Peter you write about the collection process to the Vice President from 1944 elections. He also mentioned number of times how to people around roosevelt knew he was sick. Very sick man. David it was commonly known of the convention. These were the most dramatic stories in american political history. They know their nominee for the presidency, Franklin Roosevelt, is not going to survive. Its not going to last very long pretty is a dying man. This isma kept a secret. The cover of this we would say. But for a very good reason. Sekulow absolutely essential for neither our allies or to say the least of the enemy in the idea this most powerful of all nations, among the allied nations, is being led by a dying mans. Butna they know the vice presidency is with everything. Their nominating to president s. The irony of the story is the money nominate in the income truman. Want to be dominated. As the otherer two, henry wallae and jimmy burns, seemingly ambitious and wanted very much. Peter who was the Vice President. David and wallace. Roosevelt was playing a very sort of tricky manipulative game because he told both wallace and burns, youre my man. You go to chicago with the nominations. In the matter what. But as a political bosses wanted truman. One of misconceptions about truman was he was an accidental president. It was not accidental and all. Because the political bosses, that powers the Democratic Party did not want wallace because they thought he was to lift going to and to eccentric. They didnt want to be burns would been am senator from South Carolina as well as the Supreme Court judge and want to roosevelts most important assistance at the white house. In one him because he was too conservative and devout segregationist. They wanted truman. The rust belt finally under tremendous pressure great okay truman. At one point he said i hardly know him. So truman is very much the creation of a smokefilled room. No bus system. One can help but to feel therefore that the smokefilled room wasnt an entirely bad way to go about business of making president s and Vice President s. In the buses knew what they were doing because we were extremely fortunate. Harry truman was there to replace roosevelt 1945. He even though he had not been told much naming on paper, by a conventional resume, his background would seem to be inadequate for the presidency. He had in many ways superbly prepared because of his life experience. He had been through with so much about the country have been through. He knew from firsthand personal experience that was so much of what america life was about then. You talk about him surviving that. Financially at the memoirs were 10000 investment. David by the time he paid all of hisis taxes and the rest, he wound up with not very much. Finally saved him financially and again, its one of these great circles. But the story is the old family farm. Grandview which was sold to make way for a Shopping Center in suburban sprawl. I turned out to be very valuable. Hed been raised on the farm of the old jeffersonian idea the land was what mattered. In the long run, is the value of land that would see him through the hardest of times. Families hung onto the farm through terrible times. All kinds of depression and drought and all the rest because they felt this was what had real value. In the final analysis, it wasnt his political career. It was this man, who was in his memoirs. All the other things that one would think of him security but it was that loud. Peter running about his years in i your years, and to survive financially during his. David do a lot of lecturing my publisher giving advanced which is the way it works. And television. Peter will make this book a success. David i dont know how to answer that. As far as im concerned, when it reaches readers. Already a bestseller. It rapidly became a bestseller within a matter of weeks. 922 page serious biography to go right to the top of the bestseller list in the summertime is, i will say unprecedented but certainly rare. I think that in part that is because truman still has a very high standing. Greatll appeal among all of us. I think too, and this Political Year represents something that the country more than another years perhaps wants to reach out for. Authenticity. Clarity. A lack of archivist. And in his personal and president ial manner. Truman stood for something. He always stood for something. Might not have agreed with this position but you knew where he stood. Peter was he loyal to his wife pretty. David he certainly was. Absolutely. Never never never. In fact theres a scene where he gets into his car to drive back to his quarters. An army officer his head in the window of the car late at night and tells him mr. President , i can arrange anything you would like while you are here. Anything in theyo way of line ad women. And truman is absolutely livid. Peter i wanted to ask you about the aspirated listen son, i married my sweetheart truman said pretty she doesnt run around me and i dont run around perforating a month and understood. Dont ever mention that kinda sucks me again. By the time we were home, the secret service man, he got out of the car never even said goodbye to that guy. What in the world when an officer ever be doing things to a president. David knows. Almost unimaginable. He was offering something. Peterdavid many of the secret Service People i interviewed have never been interviewed before. He spent one night with raleigh who was head of the secret service. In the end of the evening i think him for giving me three to four hours of his time. Cement, in been with Roosevelt Truman churchillro stalin. Thank you. I particularly want to thank you about how often you must have been asked these questions and he said i have never been asked these questions. Trumans affection and devotion was very major part of his life is a very touching aspect of the story. Its entirely true. The reason have all of these letters is because he was so devoted to her. The scorcher of her just one of the Great Stories pre world war one middle america, this young fellow, and love with the daughter of prominent by terms of independence, welltodo family. The family does not want her to marry him. E not built schedule. His First Campaign he pursues her. He does allow anything to discourage him. Hes cheerful. Hes devoted pretty loyal to her. He seems always to want to place her in the letters. He seems be always asking her, how my measuring grade. Peter he shared a lot of insider information. David oh yes. With his mother and sister. Imagine that mother president. Hes talking to his mom and sister about the stuff. Hes never been in the world stage before. Let alone the right state withhe such figures as churchill. He had no small experience with stage fright. But he did very well. Several people who knew him said he did better than roosevelt wouldve pretty. Peter resisting cost. David the box. Peter scented Discount Stores we can pay box. David lincoln went down your car in thehe winter. Peter give any projections at all as how many of these that will sell. David no but its over 200,000 pretty. Peter bookofthemonth club. David yes. Number one best seller as we talk at least in washington. Number three in the new york times. Lofgren just in her left that this would happen to book of this kind. This is the season of Light Reading supposedly. But really feel that the book is designed, was written specifically as a return to an america that was hours not so long ago. Hundreds of nostalgia but because this is real. This is rare. We are and we must be reminded of who we are. And reminded of the tough times we have been through. The wonderful line of churchills. We didnt come this far because we are made of sugar candy. When you see what he is an individual and what we as a country have accomplished, what we have built in support. And i think if he reminds us of anything, it is the strength and the vitality and the common sense of the democratic process. Dlowercaseletter. When you travel around, what are things that people ask you the most about this book. David e at the moment, is about ross perot. In the question is often, does the ross perot remind you that harry truman. What interests me about that question is the underlying wish that i will say yes. They want me to say yes ross perot is another harry truman. Because i feel we miss, we are hungry for the kind of authenticity trumant represente. We had it with truman and forth we have called the buoy of politics. The creation of candidates and personality and persona, by ghostwriters and doctors. Madison avenue experts and so forth. When truman went out and 48, which is many ways, is the ultimate expression what he represented pretty and Campaign Across the country in the socalled whistle stop campaign. Stopping trains all along the towns along ways. For 22000 miles. Brutal. Shattering physically shattering experiences. For lots of people who were on the train with him. Who are still alive remember it vividly. He spoke to the people directly. He spoke spontaneously. He spoke in complete sentences. And i think his teachers would been very proud of him. Read the speeches today and you think, really wonderful. Wouldnt it be reassuring if somebody was direct with us. As that man was every day, 15 times a day at the school stops. Talking about problems and where he stood. Never whining. Never blaming other people. Never blaming his star so to speak. And doggett determination. In the conviction that he was going to win was shared by nobody. None of the experts, none of the pollsters. None of the professional politicians thought he had a chance. Peter in the last chapter you are starting to ask about something. Avoid to jump do you read a lot about near the end of his life, the try to reconcile with general. Theres one incident where he says about an hour to get into a room near the end. What was that about do you remember. David yes he spoke to general eisenhower and former president truman came to washington for John Kennedys funeral. Less than an hour together at the warehouse. In the madeir up. There reconcile their differences. Peter the meeting, was never written anywhere. It. David is known exactly what was said. This been written about before but not the way it is here. Think is important to understand the truman made up with everybody that he had a fight with. He was a very forgiving person. This super was hot. But it flew over fairly fast right with few exceptions. The only person he had reconciliation with was General Macarthur. Maybe even there, he didnt send him birthday greetings on occasion. When they went unanswered. But it made up with president nixon, a critic with the Washington Post. And Margaret Truman singing. Peter david i think hes writia book about that experience himself. So he was not willing to talk. Peter what another instance, that was interesting was when president truman was running in the car with general eisenhower. He blurted out to general eisenhower that hehe was present at the time, you could be president. C1 he tried twice to get eisenhower to run for the presidency. As democrats. And according on one count, even offered to run in 1948 as the Vice President candidate. If eisenhower but agreed to run as president. Imagine that. So when they had the breakup, it was very painful to truman because he had so admired eisenhower. The breakup came because eisenhower refused to have senator mccarthy. He called him a traitor. Interment thought the world of martial pretty thought the marshal was the greatest man of the 20th century. Truman knew that marshall was on the main eisenhower good elevated him to this position. For eisenhower to sit in the same platforms mccarthy and not include paragraph that was in the. Prepared speech was repudiating mccarthys charges. Was determined of a moment of great betrayal. And he almost never got over it. But eventually he did. She might alter your book coming right many times about harry truman being surrounded by books pretty. David he was a lifelong reader. I asked margaret one day full be fathers idea of heaven. She said, it would be good comparable armchair and a good reading lamp and a stack of new history biographies that he wanted to read. Anyone said that all the readers cant be leaders. If all leaders must be readers. Unfortunately history and biography and sense of history is one of the crucial aspects of him as a president because what it meant but he knew what mattered in the long run was the judgment of history. The judgment of the country long run. So they could write out thinking polls or the cause for impeachment say when he fired General Macarthur pretty good brought that up with amazingly fullre iridium. I think because he knew what mattered was long run and he knew that in the long run he would be judged and he did the right thing that he upheld theng civilian control of the military. Peter liked a couple of things a bourbon in the morning pretty. David there was one startling discovery made, in prop. In the morning. Apparently quite early and apparently it was his of getting the engine e going. Bill first walked which was a good vigorous twomile fast walk or more. Come back and do some setting up exercises and then drink. And when i was first told this by the assistant headmaster, judy whispered i thought that cannot be. But it was confirmed by two or three other councils well. Peter posey like pretty. David he was very stubborn pulling on long after he shouldve died in hospital i think he was sustained by what was then considered miraculous modern medicine longer than he shouldve been. It was a model patient he never complained is a complete break, all systems, heart lungs intestines. Peter what your duty diane . David 1972. She was unable to see people. Peter do you have another book in mind. David i have several they havent made a decision yet on what will be next. Peter isec our monday series on television pretty. David yes that will be. At the moment, are two different Television Networks interested in the book. But it will be. From his station of the book on television pretty. Peter happy all you saw terry truman and hard about him he worked there today would you vote for him. David absolutely. I would go out and work hard to see that he was elected pretty was a perfect and he did make mistakes. His Loyalty Program was a serious mistake in the made others. He reminds us of what a man in the job can be what he can do. It wasnt just that he made decisions pretty accomplish things. He created constructive policy. Again and again and again. If it hadnt been for the korean war which really what caused this downfall and popularity. Standing with the country would not suffer visited. Looking at this cover, how did it pretty. David when the liner who i think is an immensely gifted man was done looking jackets for all of my books but one. Its an important partner because this suggests the road the truman travels from the farm to the white house and of course represents the right of the countries traveled from nation to a world power. Peter David Mccullough, author of truman. Thank you so much for your time. David thank you. In your witching book tv on cspan2. Spending the evening with historian David Mccullough. Next he talks about his prizewinning biography of john adams. This is from the first National Book festival in 2001. Can everyone hear me. My name is michael and im a writer and editor at the Washington Post pretty is my great pleasure to be here this afternoon to introduce David Mccullough. One of our finest living historians. It is my pleasure gosh, eight years ago to run the Pulitzer Committee it shows truman for the award and biography in 1993 arrows at the ceremonies that i first first estimate David Mccullough briefly. An attempt to admire his work. And ever since, and know all of you as well. Heres a Pulitzer Prize and a narrative of some of television most distinguished historical series pretty the recipients distinguished contribution to american letters award. He and his wife live in massachusetts. So on s behalf of laura bush, the Washington Post book world, my employer,. [laughter] and all readers everywhere please welcome David Mccullough. Pplae] [applause] [applause] boomac thank you, what a warm welcome. Thank you for your introduction. I am thrilled to be here. Thrilled to take part very honored to take part in this historic marvelous event. What ahr thrilling day this is. This is Beautiful Day to see thousands of people here on capitol hill. Our american acropolis. Right in the heart of the greatest library in the world. And to see it all with thousands of people out there today. All ages from all parts of the city, all part of the country. All in celebration of the book, that miraculous contrivance called the book. And high time, it is a historic first. There has never been a National Book festival,. Never in all the history of our country. And there has never been a first lady who was a librarian to start. And who got behind books, made a vessel like this happen. Never before and she deserves all of our heartfelt thanks. [applause] i have to say i am extremely partial to librarians. [laughter] they have been my guiding stars if you will for 40 years now. Since ive been trying to become a writer of history and biography. It was here in this library, the Great Library of congress while i was employed in a government job as a young man discovered the pole of history. And first discovered by vocation. I found out what i wanted to do. I can never ever express sufficiently my gratitude to the library of congress. Or to the Library System overal overall. When you think of what we have in this country and our public Library System, theres nothing like it in the world. When you walk through the doors of a Public Library, anywhere in the country. Little town big city it doesnt matter. When you are walking through the doors or walk into the portals of freedom. And it is all there. All of the wonder, all of the journeys, all of the information, all of the stirring, touching, experiences that move the heart not just the mind the art should be found in books. All there and all three. In a time, in a society when very little is free anymore. Imm so, thank god for the Public Libraries and librarians. Lets all give more support them we even do tour public Library System. If you ever get down about the state of society or culture intercountry remember there are still more Public Libraries in america than mcdonalds. [laughter] now i wouldnt be here, i wouldnt have had the writing life ive had or written the books that i have, or discovered those first nuggets of idea that led to my first book if it werent for my editorinchief who is also here today withy me. She is as well my Mission Control and chairman of our ethics committee. [laughter] and my wife Rosalie Mccullough and i would like you to meet her please. [applause] i was just we were just talking to reporter from the Washington Post outside and they told him she was my editorinchief. And he said maybe you should call her your editor and chief. I have been privileged in my subjects. I felt all along that i have had wonderful, really rare chance to write about events past an american turning points and american figures who have been the protagonists of times past that are almost without equal as sources of story, sources of understanding of who we are and where we have come from. And also as a way to go inside those times past to find out what was it like. With the three books that i have done that are in essence biography on theodore roosevelt, harry truman and now john adams, i felt i have had Barbara Tuchman very vividly described biographical subject ought to be someone serves almost as a lens through which you w can see a whole era whole time. I must say for all i have enjoyed allll that i have learned from my subjects in the past years, i have never ever had six more enjoyable years than i have had writingav the story and the life of john adams. I should say john and Abigail Adams. Ive never had such material to work with. It has been a journey such i have never had before. Ive never set foot in the 18th century for example. And when one goes into the 18th century, one gives up a great deal its advantageous to the writing biography and history in the 19th and 20th century. There are no photographs for example there are no old outtakes from Television Interviews as safer harry truman. There are very few examples of what we now take to mean journalism. Newspaper reporting in the 18th century bears very little resemblance to the newspaper coverage that came particularly strongly in the 19h century and continues on into our own time. But what one does have in the 1h century, and which in many ways makes up for more than makes up for lack of theses other sources, are the letters and diaries of the people of the time. And in the case of john adams and Abigail Adams, it is possible because of what they wrote, because of their letters to each other in letters to other members of the family and their diaries to know them and can know any of the founders. Not even franklin for all that he wrote, everett really takes us if you will into his confidence the way john adams did. John adams poured out his innermost feelings all of his life on paper. Sometimes to his detriment. Sometimes he tells us more than he reallys should. And he was a wonderful writer as was abigail. Either one of them could have been a professional writer. Couldve had a career as a reporter or as a biographer or novelist. They had a perfectly superb command of the language. And when one realizes, when one thanks just to get through a day of the 18th century, of the discomforts, the difficulties, the labor, the hard work, the threats to ones health to one security, and every day life beginning about 5 00 a. M. In the morning, the end of a long strenuous day putting up with inconveniences and concerns never even enter our minds. Could sit down a candle at a Kitchen Table or a little desk in philadelphia and some boardinghouse room write the letters they wrote exceptional and humbling. Now one of the reasons that i tried as best i could to other time its a very different time than ours. Seems they would never ever know enough about that founding generation that founding era. We must never ever take it for granted. We must understand what they did and against the odds of what they face. Against the personal sacrifice the danger and risk of life when when one signs ones name for the declaration of independence will was signing their own death warrant. You were recording that you were a traitor. You thought you would be hanged at best. Legally you could be drawnan and quartered. It is not inconceivable that that could have happened. The temptation always is to look back at times past is events happening in a prescribed order. We are often taught that way in school. Follow this come about this, follow that it will get it straight. And memorize it because its going to be on the test on thursday. And therefore you come away thinking its all on track, it was preordained. In fact nothing, nothing was ever on a track. All of the events of times past with a great moments in the history of the country or the world. For the events in life couldve got off and any number of Different Directions for any number of reasons along the way. And most importantly you have to keep in mind with the didnt know. Now there is a hubris of the present or we look back and say well, they did not behave very intelligently. They should have done this or that. Why didnt they realize that such and such was going to happen. That is the huge arrogance of hindsight. Ney dont know hows going to come out. They taken a poll of the country, the pole of the economies in 1776 to decide whether to go ahead with the declaration of independence in the revolution and they would have scrapped the whole thing. Only about a third of the country were for. The other third were adamantly against it. In the other third in the good old american way were waiting to see how it came out. [laughter] the idea that this scattered small population settlement that only reached about 50 miles inland all along the Eastern Shore of the country was going to revolt from the most powerful empire in the world andul succeed. On the face of it was preposterous. No one had successfully broken away from the empire ever before in history. Furthermore none of these people had any experience inad revolution nor an nationbuilding. Nation founding. And always remember they werent starting out to launch a broadway show they were founding a country. [laughter] and they were winging it. They did with they did as human beings very first line of the declaration of independence must not ever forget when in the course ofveve human events in the operative crucial word there is human. They were human beings. And they all failings, they all had flaws they were contradictory there often at odds with each other. And simply doing dumb things. Each of them, each of them none were perfect. They werent supermen they werentt gods. They were marble idols. If they had been gauze they would not deservewe much credit they rose to the occasion the fact that they saw they were in one of the great dramas of all time very well better play their part well is the miracle. John adams is born in 1735. He lived until 1826 until the age of nearly 91. He lived longer than any our history. His been commonly thought of as a rich boston blue blood. He was none of those pretty wasnt rich, he wasnt a bostonian, he was not a blue blood. He was a farmers son because of a scholarship from harvard discovered books, and he said read forever. John adams was the most deeply and broadly read american of his bookish time. Member john adams second president of the United States assign legislation that created the library of congress. Remember john adams is altogether particularly appropriate at this occasion. He was a man of genuine brilliance he was also a man of great heart, great humor, devoted to his country. Truthful, devoted to his wife, devoted to his family. Hardworking, godfearing and altogether one of the bravest patriots in our history. He was as well they, abrasive, sometimes temperamental, sometimes tactless. Sometimes overly concern withh his own position or place in the estimate of his friends or of posterity. And he was also came into his credit but also to his disadvantage who he said never considered popularity his mistress. Never recorded popularity. He was a man of principle. Discourage with his courage of convictions. One of the most vivid and important examples of his principal behavior and conduct in life. He was the only b founding father who never owned a slave as a matter of principle. Now we know to judges who did own slaves in context of their time for that is correct, fair, and historically the sensible something to do. But lets not forget that john and Abigail Adams were also of their time. And they oppose slavery. Abigail perhaps even more ardently than her husband. Honor for all the travails and suffering we are going through our gods punishment for the sin oferh slavery . This San Andreas Fault of slavery that runs through our country story begins well before the revolution. Just as the revolutions tomb and people seem to understand begin well before the declaration of independence. The declaration of independence, is John Dickinson who oppose the declaration of independence was in many ways, as dickinson said, launching into a storm and a skiff made of paper. What made it more than just a peace of paper, was the fact that we succeeded we fought for, fought for and succeeded in gaining our independence. And john adams would not have set free and independent, he wouldve said independent and free. You have to have independence and then you have the freedom. Bike trip cultural tradition if you were were fiercely independent people. Independence was a way of life. So was religion. I think this of the utmost importance in understanding that time, that age, that moment in history and those protagonists. We believe in strongly the separation of church and state. Into a large degree they all did too. But the separation of church and states in their time, and their minds and spirits did not mean the separation of church and statesman. And if i really want to understand this people, we have to understand the part religion played in their life and their whole outlook on what might happen next. They also had very Long Distance communication that took a lot of time and a lot of travail to get a letter back and forth between philadelphia and boston or quincy where the adams lives took at least two weeks. Communication across the ocean and the adams with abigail in john were separated for fully and cumulatively ten years. And that separation was created by the Atlantic Ocean to communicate across the Atlantic Ocean took upwards of three to six months. On what did that mean . Didnt say its just inconvenient. It meant both in personal life and it diplomatic or official life. That one had to be more responsible than we understand today for ones ownc decisions. Abigail adams at home running the family, writing the farm, trying to balance accounts. Trying to keep good people working with her to make the farm work because that was their only means of subsistence. Whether to make decisions whether to get smallpox shots for example. Had to make those decisions herself or it could not pick up the phone and asked her husband what should i do . That was a part of life. The assumption of responsibility to ones self. When adams was serving in france and in the netherlands and in england as a diplomat. Again and again he had to make momentous decisions on his own that would affect the course of events at the time. The fortunes perhaps of the United States but he made them because that was necessary. Nothing could be communicatedss any faster than something to be transported. Think of transportation is two Different Things at the time is the same thing for enough acid and a sailboat but the thing on a horse. A vast difference. They werent like we are because they lived in a different time. A very different time. Very, very interesting time. I tried to not only read not only what they wrote, and oh my did they t write. Neither john or Abigail Adams is capablete of writing a dull sentence or a short letter. [laughter] they were just between the two of them they wrote over thousand letters to each other. It was over a thousand have survived, all in the Massachusetts Historical Society. Inas all unread paper. As a consequenceie those letters and you can hold them in your own hand. Thank you can hold the same distance in your eyes with two hands as they did. And believe me something tactile, something very, very important happens when you are working with the real thing. Its not the same as seeing it on microfilm or reproduced in a book. The humanity, though mortality the vulnerability of those people. And the bravery. Think of that woman alone in her kitchen at 11 00 p. M. At night being up since 5 00 a. M. In the morning doing all she did preach sitting down and writing those letters. And nearly always inserting into her letter some wonderful quote from one of her favorite poets or from shakespeare. I nearly always getting a little bit wrong. [laughter] which showed she didnt look it up. She wasnt taking a book down off the shelf and copping it out of sync thisll make me look good. [laughter] she knew it was part of her. There is equally important and equally rewarding experience in reading not just what they wrote but what they read. I read in the Washington Post this summer about that of going back and reading all of the writers that so many of us were required to read in english courses in high school or college, samuel johnson, pope and smith, samuel richardson. And to be reminded about how terrific they were. Wonderful writers. Heaven knows we live with the benefits of progress all the time. Certainly when we go to the dentist. [laughter] when it think of port john adams with the end of his life, not a tooth innd his head. Every one of them, every one of them had to have been polled. Long before novocain. Theres a certain vanity and a certain arrogance about progress. But when you read whatab they wrote in the 18th century and think anybody does it any better today or even as well. I will tell you Something Else that ought to make us all sit up and shape up, and that is the Literacy Rate in massachusetts was higher in their time than it is today. And what a disgrace that is. What a lot of still have to be done about that. The books that they read that affected their lives is affecting our lives, they affected their notion of truth, heroism, right, wrong, how you write a letter. Dont try to write literature when you write a letter. Dont strain for frills and fancyil effect. Write the weight youve talked. It is a letter. Write the way youri talk. When you read the letters of john quincy are hearing them talk. In one of the things ive done in the book one of the ways i approach biography thats when you let them talk as much as possible. Most of life is you talk. If you think about hurting how they talk figures of beach, the expression the cadences of style of the person, abigail was huge influence by a person of single richardson. This is the most popular novels of the 18th century. She wrote interesting letter to those and said you you read clear sit and write your letters the way they are that novel. The whole novel as many of you know is just letters. Letters being written back and forth to each other. Its written to the moment. Its whats happening right now. That is late abigails letters are written. Now all of those letters written to her husband were written in large part because they were separated for so many years. The suffering they experienced because of their separation is to our advantage. Because we as a consequence have the letters. But even when she was not separated from her husband, she would write to somebody else. She would write to her sister mary krantz for example prison the best letter she ever wrote. The point and she needed to write. She needed to work her thoughts out on paper. Your feelings out on paper. This is a very, very important point for all of us. The fall had the experience. You start to write something r u find you have an insight or a thought that you never would have had you wouldve forced yourself to write that. Something about writing focuses the brain in a different way. And when they wrote that letter it was a need they were filling in their own way of approaching life. I will ride it out and that i will understand it better. And it is why john adams, for example encouraged his son john quincy who was a little boy to keep a diary. And john quincy kept that diary for 68 years. John quincy adams diary is one of the great treasures in American Literature, not just a treasure in American History. John quincy, i think also to be said and fairly so, was a man anything more brilliant than his father or Thomas Jefferson. I think all of the president of the United States were given an iq test, john quincy would comed in first. He wasnt a particularly successful president but his heroic time was when he came back to washington after the presidency to serve in congresses. Something no other president has ever done or has done since. And he died on the floor of congress which is now then congress which is now statuary hall. Penny died with his boots on battling slavery. The same theme that runs through the adams family. And hate wanted to be there because he wanted to serve. He saw no stepping down from the presidency to congress. None. Nor i dont think john adams father sees the presidency as the ultimate objective of his career. He did not sea life is climbing a mountain or a ladder of success. That is not the way they saw things. More closely i think would be the example or metaphor of the journey. That life was a journey. And the presidency was part of a journey. In it was not necessarily the most important part of the journey. . And has no power or no influence or popularity, just an old fellow living on his farm south of boston in quincy massachusetts. And i thought how will i handle that . I just cant say he went home from the white house and didnt do much and live 25 years. [laughter] nor was it all entirely tedious day after day nothing happening and i possibly expect any intelligent reader to stay another 50 pages about that. And the last two chapters and the most interesting part of thet whole story because with begins as the inward journey. That needed to resolve his family when terrible blow after another and while he had one child who was and john quincy became president he also had charles and he killed himself with alcohol by the time he was in his early thirties his daughter abby died in a consequence of a hideous mastectomy performed inhouse in the day before anesthetics. A horror that one cannot even imagine. And her mother and father right outside the door. And the death of his wife abigail and his declining health and strength and it blazed burned right to the end. And interestingly he wouldve said a realist and became increasingly o optimistic with the spirit of st. Paul to say i have vowed to rejoiceoi evermore. I will rejoice evermore if i can. If i can. [laughter] that he died not just on any day but the day of days that fourth of july the same day as Thomas Jefferson died in far off charlottesville. He died in the Late Afternoon literally his last words is jefferson survives. They began as closes while serving as diplomats abroad and then find themselves on the opposite sides of the emerging twoparty system to become political rivals and political enemies and there was a period of twoo you years they refused to speak to each other. But then to rekindle the friendship to bring about a reconciliation and then commence one of the great correspondence in our history lasting three team 26 and they make it happen and they were to striking different men from massachusetts and to see how different different parts of the country where they. I would like to finish by reading you something written in the 14th century and that jefferson and adams both had read almost for certain. It was written by petrarch written by a friend who was a monk in the year 1346 and two of the greatest booklovers of their day each amassed large and valuable private library the adams books are on the Public Library and the jefferson books are here that have survived. It was a good 400 years before Thomas Jefferson and john adams at exactly the same spirit that each felt and that so many feel today in one of the reasons we areer here to celebrate a National Book festival. Petrarch writing 1846, divine pity has rescued me from almost all of human desires. If not entirely at least in great part. This is having heavens doing to the passage of time has contributed and i have seen many things and meditated much and at last i have begun to understand the worth of those activities that agitate the human race that you may not think i am immune that one unquenchable passion possesses me which so far that could not or would repress. I thought of myself with a longing for were the things is not unworthy. Yes it is that i cannot have my last four books perhaps now i have more books than they need. But it is with books as with other things the more one gets the more one wants there is Something Special about books gold and silver and gems and a marble palace brought lambs and paintings of rich trappings with a muted superficial pleasure but books thrill you and talk to you andow counsel you nor do they insinuate themselves into the readers spirit and they introduce other books, each one creates a desire or another. Thank you. [applause] on behalf of everyone here thank you for that moving talk i will pass the microphone back and well take ail few questions. [inaudible] what as a catholic in the last declaration of independence i never found anything that doesnt mean there isnt something. But the most interesting thing about adams because attending the Catholic Church and its the first time hed ever been inside the Catholic Church and wrote a wonderful letter to abigail describing the entire irss. Lasted two hours and did not leave. And George Washington attended the same mass but there seems to be no explanation why or if they went together. We just know each of them is they are the same day. And then to describe the whole mass and then i found it both moving and awful. [laughter] and understandably many people who read that and have taken that to mean this is a narrowminded. Awful does not mean the same be careful of the vocabulary and the language of the 18th century. Very serious mistakes could be usmade. And you write age when biography and at what point to point do you realize about adams and you reach this tcision. And to rate a dual biography going back and forth between these interesting man in their lives. And my worry, my concern is that jefferson with hisje fame and star quality and his gifts and the romance of his house on the mountaintop and the things that appeal to us would counterbalance to command the stage that for john adams who has been in the shadows of the several hundred years , wouldnt have a chance. And how could i give them equal time and equal importance . It should have been the least of my concerns. It didnt take very long, i realize that for me at least, adams was the story i wanted to tell. And adams tells us more. And reaching out constantly trying to find the human being. And those extraordinary letters and they are very informative and revealing and then and dont even know she look like. What were those anchors and fears i dont know. And with those shelves of books about jefferson relatively few about john ntadams. But not the books i wanted to write. And as soon as i saw it should be adams this is more about the nature of the biography than the biographical material but the one thing i have learned in choosing a subject to go where the material is. [laughter] otherwise you are resorting to conjecture and we were all readers before writers and i have always objected although it is conceivable so possibly he may have been thinking that is skating on thin i. C. E. And it gets tiresome after a while. And somebody said to me recently are you giving any thought to writing a biography of abigail . I could only answer honestly already has because you cant write the life of john without writing about abigail. As a product of Public Education practically dismissed the process i was just overwhelmed and then i see the Jefferson Memorial in washington monument. It seems like theres something missing. Is it something to give visible or tangible expressionne and then to say yes indeed be shared. And that would be decided by created people meant to have sufficient number of monuments in the National Capital but i do have an idea for the memorial to john and Abigail Adams i think it ought to be a library and it ought to be the library of american letters and my idea of heaven is library in a garden not another marble temple but library changing exhibits an american letters and American Literature changing exhibits and John Quincy Adams love literary accomplishments of other people of their time. Had already talked to doctor billington and the director of the Massachusetts Historical Society to ask if can see the lead library of congress would be willing to have those on loan on exhibit if there are cases with these wonderful aspirited documents that you can browse and look at it should be a Kitchen Garden the kind that abigail kept with fruit trees. You heard it here first. [laughter] i am here at the library of congress we do have an Adams Building here on the hill for mr. Adams and what we do talk about at the very beginning of the library of congress so i wonder in your readings did you find any letters how he wrote about how he wanted this library tot be . He was always all for it. Last night at the event and when he sold his library and then to say i envy you that in mortal s honor. He love the library of congress and i think one of the proudest moments signing his signature to a piece of paper is that yes you have been veryio patient. [inaudible] thank you. [laughter] i will take a little breatheri from biography. I will go back to writing history the next time i will stay in the 18th century. Im very happy there and stay in the revolution. I would just like to conclude i have a huge advantage of growing up in pennsylvania where the first Carnegie Library was established and libraries were not just down the street but also in every school. And in the gradeschool and then we were taken down the hall and i remember those halls to be long and wide and the stairways to be grand and that i went back at the school in the halls are very long andhe wide and it was just as impressive as i remembered it as a child. In the library and introduced us to say this is where you come to read books. I will tell each of you tablele by table and we must all be quiet. Have you brought your library shoes . I thought oh my god my mother didnt tell me anything about library d shoes. [laughter] and i cannot commit without thinking if i have on my library shoes. Remember to bring your library shoes. [applause] s. [inaudible conversations] a summer or saturday evening book tv takes the opportunity with several programs from our archives featuring a wellknown author. Tonight historian David Mccullough the bestselling books with president adams and truman as well as the construction of the panama canal. Up next mr. Mccullough sits down to talk about his book on the american revolution, 1776 from cspan q a. You told an audience outside of the Henry Knox Museum a couple days ago that everybody in america should know who henry knox is. Why . Because he is such an extraordinary story of an american who seemed to be miscastt and not prepared for the role of history had for him to play and not only lived up to the role but over the top and as an example of a man who came from very humble origins with very little advantage in the waydu, of education or connections. He rose to one of the most important americans of his day that George Washington has discovered and the man that George Washington counted on from nearly eight and a half urars from the revolutionary war and secretary of war from one washington was president he started off as a boston bookseller with a friendly and popular fellow the equivalent of a fifth grade education who loves books and never stopped reading and became one of the best officers and singled out to young men from when he took command at cambridge massachusetts is people he could count on one was Nathanael Greene at the age of 33 with no military experience at all and the second one is henry knox and he had no militaryil experience. But both were reading books what they knew about the military was entirely from books but that was the era that believed one of the best ways to learn is to read books as the age of enlightenment and those are wonderful examples and personifications of the enlightenment faith if you want to learn something , pick up a book for several and get reading. His daring both physically and intellectually is remarkable. He and greene were the only twoo general officers who stayed with the war, with washington not necessarily physically or personally but in the sense of fighting the more all the others dropped out or had to leave for some other reason and those he my eared with the perseverance so its an amazing story but knox had the idea of going to ticonderoga to bring back the great borders they are which was a preposterous thought in the middle of winter to hold them nearly 300 miles across the way all the way to boston it was like i miss that he didnt by seeing the solution to the problem is in the problem but how do you drag those cannons in winter but to build aa giant sle sled. That is whatt he did every imaginable all challenge and from sheer exhaustion and danger and at one point in the berkshire mountains when the teamsters refused to go on because it was too risky coming down was the hard part these things could get away and kill anybody in front. These men said its too dangerous so this 25 yearold bookseller mounted his horse and gave them two and a half or three hours speech on my they should keep going and theyey did. He wouldnt give up. That was a great quality not to say washington because that hiwas his among his strongest traits of character. Cspan this replica is a place you spent almost seven hours on a friday afternoon signing autographs and then speaking to the group near a bestseller the day your butt came out. After all the travel why would you do that . I like to meet people who read my books and read books and care aboutut American History so i was very happy to make a book tour exhausting and exhilarating and heartwarming to see the interest in American History everywhere. And to give a talk in los angeles 3000 miles 229 years in a world so different to be unimaginable to those people who participated those in los angeles the year 2005 and because of their interest but here in the knox house i feel strongly that these Historic Sites and museums and the adjuncts that are major participants of how we educate br children and wdu grandchildren. To bring people here to this houseo to the president ial home to a great battlefield and is to inspire and open the mind in a way that is not exactly like a book or a movie or an original letter but these places speak to us in a very moving way. In the idea that this house was designed by general knox with the expression of their time or what mattered to them and that would have been familiar because of the white house with that. Piece that speaks to us in these are important because this is a different time with different values and notions and proportions and scale and what the good life can be. This of course was the home of wealthy and prominent people who had risen high in the eyes of their country. But its amazing to go to monticello tor hear grownup visitors say they are surprised to find neither jefferson nor George Washington had indoor plumbing inor electricity. When you come into a room like this why would they have two fireplaces . That begins to open the realities of that time. We forget how much more difficult life wasdi then an inconvenient and uncomfortable and closer to nature and the hardshipsag of living in a rough climate because we are so insulated from the facts of life as they knew them and insulated from the cold and the heat and protected by wonderful drugs and medicines will have to worry much about orepidemic disease the way they did get up at 5 00 oclock in the morning to start the fire or saddle our own horse and take care of the stock we are softies compared to people of that time. It when you realize all they had to do just to get through the day at peace time and to the best of conditions and then responding to real adversity that is humbling. Abigail adams in a letter to her husband when he was in philadelphia said future generations will reap the blessings with no conception of the hardships and sufferings of their ancestors. Thats true even with as handsome of the scale as the knox. Cspan you gave a speech at Hillsdale College and it does tales what you said i have a quote written down that says when all that matters is success being number one and getting ahead in referring to the attitudes back then and then to betray or gouge or clot or whatever thing that is immaterial if you get to the to top. And for many reasons they are notion of history is based on classical history of greece and rome and virtue and honor and character in the idea that those are cast in the parts of importance or in minor parts have to live up to the role they have been assigned. Because they are on this stage of history and before you came on s the scene and when you pass you will be part of what constitutes history a very important point. They think of themselves someday they will be judged by history. If you go to the old congress on capitol hill now statuary hall then there is the goddess of history and she is in a chariot holding a clock assignment willard clock installed if i remember correctly and the members of Congress Looking up to see what time it is in their moment they see cleo writing in her book of history the representatives of the people that they are judged all time for history and to be said for opponents and they are convinced they are the true patriots they have an education which gave them that perspective and it is wonderfully expressed in the play plato and it says we cant guarantee successin in this struggle but we can do something better, we can deserve it. There are too many other factors we cant control that as individuals but that is essential to the whole idea of enlightenment. But then we have fun in that sense its very different from the present day attitude and i think a very healthy reminder that there is a hubris that everything we do with the right way to doig it what we achieve is the ultimate achievement those that priest procedures that preceded us was not quite as bright door savvy with what matters. That is arrogant and ignorant viewf of life. There is so much more we can learn from history and those people. They interest me. Theer people. Cspan but what has caused the attitude of today in your odopinion . I think it has been caused by an enormous variety of choice. I think it has been caused by a life and i think it has been caused by materialism. Too much luxury. Samuel johnson says what does people in is too much luxury. And lack of leaders not just political but leaders of all kinds and all faiths and gender and race who express the core values to use the current expression in ways people are moved by it. There are several misconceptions that they live in a simpler time i just saw it the other day an article in one of the papers there was no simpler time. And to find in a more challenging time what you had to know just to survive to get by his somebody said to me we have to go out and ride in a wagon in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania in december, who would you like to take along with you . I would say give me a couple people from the 18th century. They know how to make it. We are in a simpler time in some ways. Now we are more selfconsciou selfconscious, we are reported and characterized and analyzed endlessly every day is a people constantly and so much attention from the press about things that are of no real consequence and its very confusing and it lends to people whatever you get away with y when its offtrack to say at least he tried what type of attitude is that quick. Honesty generosity kindness ambition to excel, thats different. He said i wish there is more ambition and by that i mean ambition to excel its a different kind of ambition then to say you are number onene or whatever. Cspan if you total the john adams books you sold of two. 2 5 million and you sell at least 1 million on 1776 thats more people than were even alive in 1776 in this t country. How do you explain your success you are number one was john adams. What do you do . Im not sure that measure i dont think were in a bad time. I think we are in ande exciting time. I think we are a little off course. But if somebody say what age you want to live i would say right now. There are many similarities the 18thight now and century both are times of tremendous change and stress great technological change with the 18th century just like it changes our time but the speed of change and information and the throwaway culture we dont just throw a styrofoam cups that we throw ideas and history and take it to the junkyard it is history nobody walks aroundan today we believe in whats new inin the future nobody says hi what is old . They say whats new. That is america. Nobody turns over the old leaf. That is our attitude towards life. But i think one of the reasons with the success of the History Channel all of that could be in part for about a generation or more we have not been educating our children very well in history those in their twenties and thirties and forties are trying to get caught up. They know roosevelt was president that they have no idea what he did and why he is of importance. They want to see the documentary on television. I think some of the movies coming along have been effectiv effective. I think by nature we are interested in history. Its part of our human nature. We want to know what happened before once upon a time. The two most popular movies of allul time not necessarily historically accurate that is a very important measure tom hanks will now be producing a big multi our movie for television and tom hanks is a very solid anden conscientious man and i expect that movie will reach people in a way that maybe nothing else could and with those other authors and if it was done right it will be a huge step forward. Will they show john adams without teeth quick. I hope so. And all that i have suggested they have taken very seriously and the efforts to make everything as authentic as possible is the most remarkable. How many parts quick. 11 on hbo. They will start filming i believe this fall after that i dont b know we are building the back lot outside of richmond and then in williamsburg and some of it on location in europepe. Cspan what are the chances of having the monument in washington . Will be just john or john and abigail or the entire family quick. It is still open to discussion in congress has passed the bill to make it possiblere now we have to work out a location and a say we because im part of a group to see this happen in keeping with his importance. It is a disgrace there is no monument or statue and in my opinion except for George Washington the most important american of that time. It shouldnt be another marble tomb or obelisk. And i think it should try to rival the Jefferson Memorial it should be 18th century and scale and modest and i am promoting as best i can the Adams Library and open to visitors in a garden that i adf seven is in the garden and john adams thought that i know youve been to the adams house to see the library in the garden there this is where you look at the letters of john and Abigail Adams and jefferson and the exhibits way change from time to time with herbs and fruit trees andor so forth and other exhibits as well from time to time and the library of congress and the Massachusetts Historical Society are great repositories of adams family f papers that they would be very happy to have their treasures on loan at the library. It would be in keeping with their great contribution. Its not just my view john and abigail did what they did. With the america and independents. And described the people and time andngs of the enormous service to their country i dont think that was in mind. And to show around upstairs to ask him how old and he was 56 and died of a chicken bone in his throat. Go back to the time when he blew his fingers off and what age did he do that . And what impact . He wrapped his hand the rest of his life in a handkerchief . Yes. Life was tough then. And the way life battered people was apparent in theirre appearance. They have a creek in their neck or something wrong with one eye or scarred or missing teeth orng fingers or part of they are ear because life would beat up on you. There were no cosmetic surgeons or orthodontist. If you lost a tooth you lost a tooth. At 25 there it was. You read the descriptions of the deserters that are the most vivid we have of those 18th century soldiers. There is something visibly noticeable. Henry knox lost two fingers of his left hand on a bird shooting expedition when he abwas about 22. He kept it wrapped because he thought it was unsightly and didnt want that to be a distraction. Nathanael greene walked with a limp because of a childhood accident. John trumbull the Great American painter ame had the use of only one eye because of a childhood accident. They didnt let down one that stop them he was one of the great painters of the time with only the use of one i that greatly altered his depth perception is interesting to see the small versions of his famous paintings signing the declaration of independence for the death foreign at bunker hill the small paintings are much stronger than the large ones on display in the rotunda because of that problem if knox and green had volunteered to serve in the army today they would have been rejected because they were physically unacceptable but they didnt let that stand in the way. And in a way it makes them more vivid somehow and identifiable like a character in dickens you would know them the minute they walk in the room certainly harry on henry knox ww hes the biggest n the room. You mentioned knoxas was 25 when he first got to know about George Washington he only mentioned Alexander Hamilton three pages in theen book what were the parameters are what didnt you write about and why so little . And never write what they will become later that is beside the point i am writing what they are doing at that point hamilton and monroe both were minor parts of the story at that point very good young officers but not people of real consequence and also i write about a farmer from connecticut and greenwood and Joseph Hodgkins the massachusetts shoemaker who was one of my favorite characters and those people played a real part in that time and moment we know because they wrote about it. All we know is diaries and letters. There was no correspondence or reporting what a terrific job Alexander Hamilton just did. Or artist correspondence for the civil war. All we have are orderly books or government records and the diaries and letters. If somebody kept a diary or wrote a lot of letters, it pours y it out to describe the scene and feelings and hardships then that person is a protagonist because they take us into the time. I try as best i can to be in the moment becauses intellectually that is more honest these people dont know what will happen next any more than our time they dont know the outcome they dont know hamilton will be secretary of treasury. Even thinking about that they think can i survive the next hour but they dont know whats happening and confusion is all around. Thats important to remember if you try to get inside the time to understand the human situation to feel it i dont think you can know anything until youy feel it. Youve got to care otherwise you get all the facts and figures and statistics like the encyclopedia and thats not necessarily the truth. I am drawn into the time of the experience as it happens and if i have someone watching over my shoulder judging me , it isnt the reviewers or other scholars but those people. Will they read what i wrote and say yes . You got it. Thats the way it was or will they say look. You are way off mark. Thats not what it was like. Let me tell you. And if there is a hereafter i hope they tell me you did all right. Cspan when did you decide there would be a book 1776 . Writing john adams at the point adams was in philadelphia and getting reports whats happening in new y york when the report comes back the battle of long island is a fiasco with 1000 americans taken prisoner more than 300 americans killed and washington is outflanked and outsmarted and the escape from brooklyn when i read all of that happening which adams was not taking part in you cannot stray off to write about something he has no involvement, i thought i would really like to write about all thats going on besides Independence Hall in philadelphia. And how much of that depended on this ragtag army under washington and how they were performing and how much of a chance they had. Cspan when did you decide to call it 1776 . After it was written. I never decided title until it is written. I often dont know what the book is about until it is written people will say what i will say the revolutionary war in the year 1776. What is your theme . I have no idea. I hope by the time i finished i will know the theme but also at the end i can step back and look and say this might be the title. Cspan what is your reaction to the sales . Are you surprised . It took my breath away. Its been extraordinary. I think its in the ninth printing now. Cspan how many books total . One. 5 million the first printing was 1 million copies and when the publisher told ment that i said i hope you know what you are doing. I couldnt believe it. But the kick, the reward and the pleasure is in the work. That is really. Cspan when did you finish . November last year, novembe year, november 2004. Cspan you said you made your decision when you are doing adams when did you make the decision on the next book . No. I have not. Im still thinking about it. Cspan how big of a book tour for this book . 24 cities. Cspan what is a vigorous 72 yearold man going 24 cities if you didnt have to . I enjoy it. I like to. Some days i think i can do this but then the next morning lets go. I like meeting people i like people i like to see what is happening in the country. I went to many of the same cities five years ago when adams was published and to go back to see how they are changing and exciting things are going on like new Convention Centers and libraries and cities looking better thereew is much to be encouraged about by presentday america. I really do and people happy in their work and part of their cities and optimistic. Its very reassuring i come back feeling better about the country and better about the time we live in more confident about the future. Give us a sense what type of book do you thank you want to do next . If youre energized five years later think five years from now. [laughter] what kind of a book does the country need . I never think about that. I think what i want to do and what gives me and thats it because you have to live with the subjects day after day. Your inclination right now . I will talk about it. As of this morning i have 24 ideas for a book i would like to read and then career and life. I dont know what its like that suddenly you could Say Something in this conversation and say thats it. And then for the sake of getting going. I will give you an example. I would love to read about going on in london during the revolution. The loyalist and thousands of americans and american painters but trouble goes over during the war they think he is a spy. He might have been. They put them in the tower of there werea whileut a lot of spies on both sides british and french and all the politics of the time like edmund burke and others on the side of the american plaintiff you to appoint. In the same kind of book could be written about the civil war. I would love to read a book about Charles Wilson the philadelphia painter who was intoph everything talk about thh century enthusiast and the tinker with mechanical devices a soldier or politician and everything wrote wonderful letters keeping a diary and ponew everybody. The idea of doing somebody he wasnt a politician or general or soldier appeals to me. No interest in the present . No more truman . No. Thats not quite the present. Your lifetime. Not particularly. I will stay in the 18th century. I really like it there. Im starting to know e everybody. I like the change in the literature and thehe art the architecture very much. Cspan did you get to know henry knox . To his letters through a variety of places at the Morgan Library in new york but the diary beginning from ticonderoga which i produce in the book in the pictures section that is at the Massachusetts Historical Society. I am actively involved. Thats one of the most wonderful collections in the country three and one. So the john adams papers and John Quincy Adams in great part of the jefferson papers in great part of the jefferson papers how many boards do you serve on now . At the moment im on nine but i am as active as i can stay in mount vernon and the library of congress and the Massachusetts Historical Society the new yorker Historical Society in monticello and Public Libraries in general. I do as much as i can to support and help make known the opportunities the responsibility they have a big driver for the pittsburgh yibrary which was the first Public Library i owe so much to the library of congress i will do what i can for as long as i can spank you give and henry knox more publicity . I guess thats right. But with 14000 and visitors in the last year that is relatively small but the new Lincoln Library is way out so what advice do you have located on route one on main to get people to come here to bring it to life . To encourage everyone that does come here to say its a very worthwhile place and you cant miss it coming up route one. Anything they should do here to entertainn them . The people that come into the spaces its the story that pulls thee people in. If you drive by a house and say thats a Beautiful House and nothing ever happens its not too interesting you could drive by the house it looks like a shack and people will be interested. I think our affection and as a people for historic landmarks has increased tenfold if not more in the last 30 or 40 years. The whole movement to protect Historic Buildings has grown in every part of the country. That i just tearing down all buildings. People really dont like that we lose something of our soul every time or a beautiful building if that is destroyed. We are vandals. Its not the right thing to do. Cspan switching subjects you talk a lot lately about teachers and testified in front of congress from thesd hillsdale speech. We have to do a far better job to teach our teachers. Too many teachers graduating with degrees in education. They go to school of education are major in education and a graduate knowing something education but they dont know isre subject we have some teachers at cspan and they were happy when they heard you say that. What do you mean . The teacher should have a good liberal Arts Education and major in a subject. History, spanish, physics or whateveris. A young teacher going to work hor the first time in a classroom who doesnt know history or biology and is required to teach that subject has a big handicap. Not just because they dont know the subject but they have no enthusiasm and most of us have been lucky enough to have teachers in our past that were enthusiastic about what they were teaching and that enthusiasm that was infectious and it opened the door for us and furthermore if the teacher doesnt know biology or history or mathematics and they become much more dependent on textbooks which are far less than we would wish some are abysmal designed to kill any interest a youngster might have. And teachers to love what they are teaching and use good books the essential boingredients are not fancy buildings or lesson plans the essentials are great books , Great Teachers and the midnight oil of hard work we dont emphasize work enough. There are superb teachers and as i say there is no more important person in our society thanan our teachers they are doing the most important work than anybody in our way of life. I have a son who is a teacher and im as proud as can be. I know howinf much he has to pt up with but its less than one word want. Cspan where . English literature in a school in massachusetts and he is a very good teacher. What are the rewards for teaching for those who do have extensive historical knowledge and excellent in their g field . I think they get the same thing no matter what line of work it is the reward of the work itself and the knowledge they are influencing hundreds or thousands of Young Americans in the course of their careers. I dont know the statistics on how many lives the teacher will touch but it must number two a sizable crowd and thats important and to convey the love of learning because education just gets rolling after you leave school or college or graduate school thats when you really begin to read. Cspan some teachers are not very happy with the no child left behind. Yes. Can any single event have children participate in democracy . No. It is a measure of how much is known or not known. When a youngster or a senior in a Good University cant tell you the commanding general was at the surrender of cornwallis at yorktown you know theres a or problem that is immaterial but the fact they dont know the commanding american in general indicates they dont even know what yorktown was or why it was important clearly he doesnt know much about the revolutionary war. That was a a serious flaw and we are not educating our children. There is no question that historic ignorance it has been shown in countless studies. In thee recent statistic those that are born and District Of Columbia born out of wedlock in history ought to be taught at the dinner table if you only have a single parent who is busy working two jobs how do you start at the dinner table . Thats not how you allocate your time. How much time does that same family spend watch television . The average family spends three or four hours per day. Dont tell me you cant give up an hour of television to do something of this kind . Tthink the dinner table conversation and i have had many people say they agree, it can be over the lifetime of a child is more important than school. Cspan but what if they dont have any a history or knowing history . They know the history of their own lives with their fathers or grandfathers did, where they came from what part they played in American Life or American History. With they could go to the library and get some books. Look at the Public Library there they are in every community. Open and free each of the people as it says on the best and one boston Public Library with art and literature and ideas of history. No other society or civilization ever had such advantage. People say theres not enough money now. Of course there is. Do you know what we spend on potato chips or lawn care . Of course there is. Its a pretty good index. You can get a complete education i graduate School Education as part of the idea the first place because they cannot afford to go to college and universities. We are out of time. When will be see the next book . I have nocc idea it takes how long it takes like lincoln said how long are your legs . Long enough to reach the ground. I have no idea that is how large the subject is. Cspan when you look through his life what one thing looms most important . He had the capacity for a great idea and the capacity to make it happen. Thank you mr. Mcculloch. Thank you the tv on cspan2 be are halfway through our look at programs of bestselling historian David Mccullough. When he talked about the expats in paris. Speak on his first National Book festival to continue for a second day, thank you for coming. [applause]ts thank you for bringing the sun out to make it clear to become the most inaccurate of weather predictions. [laughter] special thanks to our new sponsor wells fargo that has been sponsoring the new history and biographyk we paviln we are coming to the close of the 11th annual National Book festival and all of us at the library of Congress Hope you enjoyed it is much as we enjoy bringing it to you with great sponsors and partners the ability to read it is central not just to enrich our own lives or extending horizons but to sustain a dynamic democracy those 115 writers and those in the collective and here at the height of course that could not have been a success with the unprecedented number of people that participatedcc without the work of 100 volunteers giving generously of their time it is a record like you who have been here but we want to give special recognition to deanna she is the executive director of the festival for project manager with the fifties state senators and the director of development and those made up of Library Staff and members of the Junior League who love the book festival those that return we could not manage it without them. And to have special commendation for the logistics to get that tense up and saw the technology to make communication possible our security staffss make sure they have clearance that will joyous on join us those who celebrate the multi generational task of reading to each other and extending the conversation that you never have with that screen in front of you with one another so are grateful to our sponsors who have contributed to the institutions and especially the cochairman David Rubenstein is a great benefactor and unfortunately cannot be here today that deserves our thanks as cochairman for the festival and its many members are here. Finally thank you to authors and publishers for making the books and coming alive and continued here in washington. [applause] as a Nobel Laureate in literature yesterday im reminded in neuroscience said not long ago i have reached the conclusion the human brain is wired for narrative so we close the festival who has drawn more of us than you can imagine into a fresh and new way into many parts of the unique narrative into the history of the United States of america. I. Harryra truman between truman and white eisenhower. These are iconic figures but hes created new narratives and humanized history. And more than that, he is also celebrated the human story, the kind that have great events like the building of the cat panama canal and the brooklyn bridge. David mccullough is our citizen, his latest book is the greater journey, americans in the 19 century story of creative americans turning back across the atlantic to discover thean science, the arts and the learning of the old world. Even at a time another americans were generating physically through the pacific to discover the natural resources. Natural beauty and the challenges of the american frontier. Clark is opening up a new world physically in the last, enriching intellectually in the right city of life. In the journey eastward across the city. Ladies and gentlemen, David Mccullough came into my office two days after the first National Book festival. To say how important it was to continue to do this kind of event nationally. And he offered to help in any way he could. One day after that day, came the unspeakable tragedy of 911. One of the darkest days and all of the narrative of our national lives. But he came back the next year. And give the final talk in the book festival one year later and he ended it in a way we will not forget. Some will argue he suggested that you have to regulate what people think and what you write and even read. And ended it with just two words. We dont. [applause]. We are glad to have him here, the middle of freedom pointer, back, and the first today National Book festival we have ever had in the first of the second decade of this wonderful event that we at the library of congress are so privileged to share with you all pretty ladies and gentlemen, David Mccullough. [applause]. [applause]. David thank you. What a thrill to be here. Among people who believe in ideas in the. Word and the useful language in human spirit as expressed in books and writing. And what a tremendous pleasure in thrill and honor it is to be introduced by james policeman. [applause]. Weve had a number of distinguished librarians of congress archibald quickly, famous poet Daniel Boorstin scholar and historian an attorney but we have never had more accomplished inspirational parsing library, of congress tn james billington. [applause]. I like to think of our library of congress is the Mother Church for National Public Library System. One of the greatest institutions in American Life. Free to the people. [applause]. Just imagine every single citizen everybody of every age in this country can get essentially a Free Education by going to the Public Library. [applause]. And furthermore, after one has finished ones formal education, one can then begin the great adventure of learning which is for the rest of your life through the Public Library. [applause]. Lets oliver forget please, it isnt just the books in the library for the manuscripts of the back issues of newspapers and the maps that are of value. But the people who work there, bthe librarians. [applause]. It took me a while to get onto this when i first started doing research for my work. But if i went up to the librarian and told her or him whatf was i was trying to do. What i was trying to achieve. And how much i dont know, they went right to work for me and solved all kinds of problems and they still do. And i am for ever indebted to them. [applause]. I would like to begin with a couple of lessons from history. There are innumerable lessons from history of course. We justorme a few to sort of see scene. One of them is that you can make a very good case i try to make the case and nothing ever happens in the past. Nobody ever lives in the past. They live in the present. That was there present, not ours. Different from ours. But they didnt live in the past. Washington, john adams, jefferson, they didnt walk around saying this isnt this fascinating living in the past. [laughter]. Hardly picturesque in funnyef clothes. Nor did they have any idea of this turn out any more than we do. Its very important point. They couldnt foresee the future anymore than we can. Theres no suchey thing as a foreseeable future. It just as theres no such thing as manmade women, are manmade man. It does not happen. Life is a joint effort. A great accomplishment is a joint effort. Education is a joint effort. Progress is a joint effort. A nation, is a joint effort. And we have to see it that way. And one of the key factors in all of our accomplishment, all our lives each and every one of us, husband are teachers. We are more indebted to our teachers than anybody in our society. Ha [applause]. Yes. And lets not do anything that makes their job harder. [laughter]. [applause]. Cheering and applause. Each and every one of us i hope has had one or two or maybe more, teachers would change our lives. Have made see in a way we never did before. Globin of the window and not in the fresh air and changed our outlook. Change our love of learning. What is really what its about. Curiosity. Curiosity is one of the essential elements of being a human being. Curiosity is what separates us from the cabbages. [laughter]. And ecigs heller to like gravity. The more we know, the more we want to know. And i applaud vertically those teachers who encourage their students to ask questions. Not just know the answers to every question but to ask questions. Because it is by asking questions that you find things out. And later in life especially i have never embarked on a project for one of my books. And this is a confession. In front of a large and very important influential audience. Ive never embarked on a book about a subject that i knew all about. I knew something about it. A new enough that it was interesting to me. He compelled me to want to write about it. But more important compelled to want to know more about it. If i knew all about it, i would want to take on the book because close the usb. I wouldnt be an attorney wouldnt be in adventure. I wanted to tell you how this present book of mine got its start. Or it least a good nudge in the right direction. It happened right here in washington eyes during down massachusetts avenue during the rush hour and all of a sudden right by sheraton circle. Just past the embassy row, there was a horrific traffic jam. Everything stopped. I looked over and there was old general sheraton up on his horse. In the pigeon on his hat. I begin to wonder how many people go around the circle everyday twice a day, thousands of them. Have any idea who he was. And as ive been thinking that getting a little discouraged, bush was rhapsody in blue began playing on the car radio. Suddenly the magic and the power of that music, not only lifted me out of my traffic jam doldrums but sent me soaring and then he thought whose moral lives in our world today. Our lives today. Sherman, abortion one. Who is more importance to American History sherman or gershwin. And then of course, their most important that we must not go i said to myself, we must not leave gershwin out of it. History is much more than politics and the military. I was late again history is much more than politics and the military. [applause]. There are many of you appreciate and know, may be far more about it than i do, certain ancient about which we know is that art and architecture. So we must take art and architecture and music and poetry and drama and dance and science and ideas seriously. As a subject for history. It is that we are as human beings. Take away mark twain, take away gershwin. Take away winslow homer, take away the poets of our time and times before. Walt whitman. Its as if you took away the mississippi river. On the rocky mountains. We wouldnt feel the same way about who we are. And of course some of our greatest statesmen of all, having their own way been masters of the literary form. Read lincolns second inaugural address for example. Its a work of art. And here we are in this make this event ruppercaseletter surrounded by science, art, music, history. All part of the story. So could be more appropriate place for us to give our respect and our belief in that we have to do more to understand the history of our culture. And we have to keep on teaching the culture that we professed. [applause]. We cannot, we must not [applause] on art programs on music programs, theater. [applause]. Theater. And we must concentrate on what our children and our grandchildren are meeting. When i set out to try and understand somebody about whom i am writing. I tried course during what they wrote. Because of w our wonderful libraries like the library of congress, university libraries, letters and diaries that have survived to take us into the lives of these people. And you get to know them in a way that you cannot get to know people in real life. And its a way to get to know them better than you know people in real life because rely, you dont get to read other peoples mail. [laughter]. Boatright also not to read with the rope but to read with the red. And its a very revealing part of who they were. And with her. We are whatr we agreed to a far greater extent than most people atve any idea. We walk around, all of us, every day for example quoting shakespeare, cervantes, alexander pope. But we dont even know it. And what we are reading shapes how we think. Our vocabulary shapes what we think. We think with words. And when we have a student bodys vocabularies are declining, theres a vocabulary and total number of personnel and use in everyday language is declining. We have a very serious problem. In has to be faced. In one of the best of the ways is to make sure we know what they are reading and to encourage them to read the best work possible. And encourage the best teachers who are showing them what they, the teachers loved. Show them what you love is with Great Teachers of all known how to do. In my book about the americans who went to paris. I am writing about a generation beginning about 1830, sending on into 1900. Really she didnt generations. It went to paris not because they were alienated with American Life or american culture. Not because they were angry or feeling an overwhelming sense of self pity. Quite the contrary. Theyre going there to improve themselves. To better serve their country and they said so again and again. Not to serve the country in politics or in the military, to serve the country to perform at the best of their ability. The desire to excel, ambition to excel. Not to be, not to be famous. Not to be powerful but to excel. Whether they were pagers, positions, writers, or sculptors. For physicians, or in one case, a politician named charcharles who wanted to improveer his min. He wanted to come back with a greater sense of the potential of civilization. In the Public Guardian in boston, theres a statue for charles sumner. All it says there is sumner. Theres no exclamation. No explanation of who he was, no explanation of who the sculpture was. And most people i think probably one out of a thousand people in boston has no idea who he was. They have any thought about them is probably the built the sumner tunnel. And he did not. Charles sumner went to paris because he wanted to attend lectures at the serve on any attended lectures of all kinds. And he took notes, he grabbed before he started his lecture eattendance. And it became quite fluent and q then pretty took notes on everything. Everything imaginable. And one day, his mind began to straight a little because the aofessor was running on little longer than he expected. So he began looking around at the other students in the hall. Paul is still there by the way. Nicholas will thousand students in the hall. Any news that the black students were treated just as everyone else. It talk to the same as everyone else and address the same. And they have the same ambitions that he had. Any running this journal that night, i wonder if the way we treat black people at home is more to do with how we have been taught that the nature of things did it transform him. Overnight, literally overnight. Into an abolitionist. And he came back, got into politics, was elected to the United States senate when he was 40 years old. And right up there on the hill, he led the Abolitionist Movement in the senate with the strongest most powerful voice of all. Second only to Abraham Lincoln and how he was felt as a force in the country. And as many of you know, you must pay the price for it with his with his life. His almost beaten to death by a congressman from South Carolina who attacked him blindsided him with a heavy Walking Stick and virtually killed him and from which sumner never really recovered. You psychologically or physically. That remarkable man was changed by his experience in paris and we were changed as a people and a country as a consequence. And if you think that theres something of exaggeration. When john brown and his band of men in kansas heard about what happened to sumner, that is what caused them to attack and make us become known as the pottawatomie massacre. When she claimed the country when that story broke. One of the lessons of history is one thing always leads to another. Just as it does in real life. Individual life. Which is one of the reasons among many reasons, we have to do a better job of teaching our children and ourur grandchildre. [applause]. History. [applause]. I wouldnt read you something written by an irish boy who is about almost 21 years old. Not quite. Who had no money, no friends in high places, n knew no one in paris, spoke not a word french. But he was ambitious to be a painter. So he went to paris to study art and he succeeded in a magnificent passion which is the story unto itself. Here is what he wrote. In this for updates, there there were no art schools in america. No drawing classes. No collections of fine tasks and very few pictures on exhibit. I knew no one in france. I was greatly and utterly of the language. I did not know what i should do when once there. But it was not yet 21 and i had a great stock of courage. And of inexperienced which is sometimes, a great help. And a strong desire to do my very best. A strong desire to do my very best. Thats young man became the most accomplished and commissioned artist on both sides of the atlantic. He painted virtually everybody and anybody who was anybody on both sides. Right now, there are seven paintings, portraits by George Hughey hanging in the white house. There are 17 portraits by george healy hanging in the National Portrait gallery. And over in the courtroom gallery, is his great picture of Abraham Lincoln painted in illinois is springfield, just after they can pet up as he been elected president. And it was while lincoln was sitting at that portrait, and healy was painting him without his and he read aloud letter from the young woman telling him gave lincoln, that he would be much chancellor if he grew a beard. [laughter]. And lincoln turned healy into mr. Healy, would you like to paint me with a beard. Healy and commendable honesty said no sir. I would not. [laughter]. Since one of the very few images in color by a painter that we have of Abraham Lincoln. One of the greatest of all healys portraits. And another easy portrait of Abraham Lincoln hangs over the mantelpiece in the state dining room at the white house. Heres this young young man had no advantages, none. And never been to college or in our school who decided to take upon himself to do this. My consensus is, my thesis is that normal pioneers went west. And thats what this book is largely about. Oliver Wendell Holmes senior was a poet and an essayist. It already written a very famous popular poem called old ironsides. Which is what kept the uss as constitution, famous ship in boston from going to the scrap field. Holmes decided he wanted to be a doctor. In order to get the finest medical education possible he had to go to paris. Not so much because medical training in paris was far advanced by our terms but it was infinitely far advanced for the terms of the 19th century. And particularly way ahead of american medicine. American medicine was pathetically backwards. There were very few medical schools. Over half of all of the doctors in the United States at the time, 1830s and 40s, had never been to medical school. And they trained within the doctors had never been to medical school. This Harvard Medical School have a date faculty of about seven. And when it got to paris, they were in medical school with several thousand. , being taught by the greatest positions in france who were the greatest physicians in the world. It was the leading Medical Center of the world. And if they could go there, in two years, they can learn as much as or more than they would learn in general practice here in ten years. There were two very Important Reasons for this. Apart fromnd the fact that we we so far behind it because paris was paris. The Cultural Capital of the world. Both of these reasons had to do with our culture and our society are moral rules and regulations. And i had to do with science. Most american women at that time wouldve truly literally preferred to have died and have a man examine the body. And since all doctors were men, thousands of women died. Unnecessarily because of that. In france in europe, there was no such stigma about women being examined or or illness or birth or whatever five male physicians. None. An equally important, students can make the rounds with a trained physician in the hospital to watch the physician attending, doing the alexaminations of women. In the second very important roadblock for us was strong for the use of cadavers. In many states, more than half of the states, they were illegal. What that meant was there was a blackmarket for human bodies. And because of that, the bodies were very expensive and because the students almost never got to dissect the body. A cadaver. Wheres in paris again, and france, theres is no stigma about it and so dissecting for hours at a time, every day for years at a time, was in a norm as part of the training. In one of the Young American students loved it this and became extremely good at it was young Oliver William holmes senior who came back from the training in paris and then teach anatomy at harvard for more than 35 years. Devoting his entire professional life to science. Now i bring up homes primarily because he is only one example of the people who went to paris and came home to teach. They came home to teach in our schools, they came home to teach in medical schools. They came home to teach involve schools. In the came home to teach english and writing in our universities. And they changed our educational system to much greater degree than most people have any idea. One of my favorite characters of all, i was able to write about was Elisabeth Blackwell was the first female doctor period american female doctor in our country. Another was the wonderful creator of the Willard School in troy, new york. Was the first woman to champion Higher Education for women in america. Is she spent whole life and education. We have people like John Singer Sargent whose innate ability was even, he was a prodigy. He was painting some of the greatest pictures painted by an american ever when he was still in his 20s in paris. Working primarily on refresh painter named peerless trent brady who really was his master. And who sent him down to spain to study at the last because he said everything he neededai to know was found there. He is on and on. And again, like george ely, was a boy growing up in the streets ofo the city, big city in america, new york. Went to work when he was all of 13 years old by his father. Very little education. A great deal of talent but also this drive this desire to excel. And he became the Great American sculptor of the 19th century. In my view, is the greatest american sculptor ever. And we have his monuments to our history and many of the most important spots in america. His greatest work in my view is the shaw memorial which is on beacon hill in boston. Which is the first work of american art by the major american sculptor or painter which portrays black americans in her weight and front right role predict but the 54th regiment from institutions which serves under captain shaw read and for so many of whom were killed at fort wegner. If you seen them movie fluorite, you know what thats about. Shaw memorial is a breathtaking and immortal work. There is a gilded reproduction of it. Really a duplicate of it here in the national gallery. Theres another very important st. Johns piece and cemetery here which is this monument memorial to clover adams, the wife of henry adams, mr. Is looking figure with a shell over the head. Which is also to be seen in a duplicate version at the National Portrait gallery. The great statute of general sherman, stanza 59th street and the entrance of central park right across from the plaza hotel. Its also his work. Which i think is the greatest equestrian statue in america. Years afterward when he was coming back from paris completing the sherman statue, statue, he wrote writing to his friend who is a Good American friend. Dear old fellow telling him im coming home, had a wonderful experience in paris and it was surprising in many respects. One of which is to find out how much of an american i am. I belong in america. That is my home. He was ready to come home after he fell he was coming home with the best in him that would not have been possible if he stayed at home. Wheel more to our friendship and association with france than we have any idea. We all know that lafayette the lets not forget the french army that served in the revolutionary war was crucial with the surrender at yorktown was as big as the American Army under washington and the money they loaned us in the fact our country was more than doubled of the Louisiana Purchase and the fact the greatest tribute to our creed was a gift from france the statue of liberty which stands of course at our greatest port of entry in the country. The french left their names however the states and cities in colleges and universities. We may not pronounce them correctly that they are french names. [laughter] lets not ever forget more people are buried in france than any other place in the world except her own country because of those who died in world war i and world war ii and if you have ever been to the battlefield at normandy or of the First World War which is even more moving because nobody goes to see them anymore, you know what a toll it took we were more indebted than me have any idea and particularly to all those people who preceded us as painters and writers and artists and musicians and who left us the poetry we love in the architecture we love and the buildings that have shaped us after we shaped them indebted to those of the fundamental nobility and to express the best of our intentions for those that have survived not just depending on tomorrows poll or to get our faces on television for the purpose of achieving high office and those that will serve and medicine and theater to dohe what they do for the best of their country it is inspiringng beyond any way i can express it right now this afternoon for you. On we go. [applause] every saturday evening this summer at 8 00 p. M. We will feature a wellknown author and several programs. Tonight the feature guest is historian David Mccullough. From 2017 he talks about his book the american spirit a collection of the speeches he has given over the years. He spoke about at the jfk boston. In [applause] i would tell you how special this night is but you all have beat me to it. My name is steve of the executive director of the Jfk Library Foundation and on behalf of my colleagueswis and all from the library we are thrilled you can be here. All forms are great but tonight is a treat because the speakers are here also the beginning of the jfk centennial weekend and we thought it would be the best pair of a speaker and moderator we could get for this historic time. [applause] before i introduce them the lead sponsor, bank of america the Lowell Institute and media sponsors for the centennial wcc btv. We are kicking off the centennialff there is information about what we are doing over the next few days but there are opportunities from seeing a new exhibit never seen before and on saturday to see a special peace corps day and on sunday when astronaut is here as a tribute too nasa and on monday with the bands and music to honor kennedys service in the 3 00 p. M. Exactly 100 years to the minute he will have to f18s flying overhead to honor president kennedy and then we will eat the cake. We need help to do this. S. [laughter] it will serve 1000 people and designed by the same company that did the cake for their engagement many years ago. I hope you will join us for some of those activities. But tonight literally a standing room only in this auditorium also an overflow any other auditorium we are thrilled we are streaming this and there are watching parties including the jf Kennedy Museum in hyannis and cspan. We appreciate all of you that are here and those that are participating online. We have many distinguished guests but i want to highlight a few there are many members of our board here and we appreciate their leadership because it is our centennial we have representatives with us tonight either from the president ial library or the foundation from the Franklin Roosevelt, harry truman jimmy Carter George h. W. Bush and bill Clinton Library also paul kirk here tonight and former ambassador Nicholas Burns and several members of the new england consul general core. [applause] after the first hour of dialogue there will be a chance for questions but if you dont want to get up are you are in the other room or streaming tweet us at jfk library. Stayed in your seat somebody will read the question or you can get up we will do the best to answer as many as we can. Will be signing books at the end is to help the traffic flow to go smoothly. If you have not read this yet, it is a treasure. The american spirit who we are and what we stand for, so many speeches if i had an hour i would just ask questions for an hour but i promise i wont but first i want to introduce charlie gibson. [applause] based on the applause i think i speak for most people here feel we know him even though he just met him and much of what i know i learned from listening to him on the news over 35 years to anchor abc world news and cohost good morning america. He interviews everybody including nine us president s so a remarkable history we are honored he and his lovely wife are heree tonight. And David Mccullough. First i feel bad he hasnt been recognized much in his life. Everybody has two Pulitzer Prize and to National Book awards and the Francis Parkman prize twice. And the nations highest civilian honor everyone i know has been recognized by 54 honorary degrees. Join me to welcome this amazing panel. Thank you very much. [applause] we will do a colloquy here for about an hour and then you can come up and ask questions. The most famous person using twitter probably isnt watching so you probably wont get a question. [laughter] i doubt we will get one of those and i shudder to think of what it might be. [laughter] but we do look forward to this and it is a treat for me as somebody who was a very undistinguished history major to have a chance to talk to david was something of a legend i am pleased there are representatives here. And we do gather in the kennedy library. How many books will be in the trump president ial library . [laughter] [applause] well as we saw an interview with the Washington Post said he never read a book about a president either a biography or a book about the presidency. He might someday he said. He doesnt read books because his mind reaches beyond that. [laughter] so i began to think about the great president s down the years who are avid readers of history many wrote history including kennedy and even those who didnt have the benefit of a College Education read history all their lives and realized it is essential to the role of the leader whether the presidency or leadership of any kind with cause and effect. History matters. If i have one message i would like to get across in my work and gatherings like this is that History Matters a lot. [applause] and we are slipping in our responsibility of teaching history to our children and grandchildren its been going on a good long time. A number of us in the sense have become evangelical preachers and the importance of history. I have lectured a great deal at colleges and universities and i am astonished how much these young people dont know about our country. I have one young lady who came up to me after i gave a talk and said she wanted to thank me for coming to the campus because until she heard my talk that day she had no idea all the original 13 colonies were on the east coast. [laughter]au and another one asked in the questionandanswer period which may be my favorite that aside from henry truman on harry truman and adams how many other president s have you interviewed . [laughter] so there may not be many bucks but to be one hell of the edifice with his name a big of letters. As a historian what specific steps could Andrew Jackson have taken to prevent the civil war . [laughter] we could go all night with this. [laughter] and i dont have any more. [laughter] you could be interviewing president douglas tonight. [laughter] can you believe it . Really. I want to restore our recognition of who we are and how we are the way we are and what we stand for. I think more and more as important as high school and college and university is and essential that is how we are brought up at home. How were we raised to behave . Are treating people with kindness and tolerance, and that the, hard work. I grew up in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania where people probably work hard but if youre a good worker that counted how you are appreciated by other people. These to say charlie drinks too much but he is a good worker or fred is a terrible exaggeratorxa but hes a good worker. If you were a good worker , that forgave all other feelings. Thats how we got to where we are by working very very hard doing my right brothers book they never even finish high school that brought up to have a purpose in life with values at Home Learning to use the english language on faith and on paper so you read their words and the library of congress they are humbling in the quality of their vocabulary to express themselves superbly. And to boast about yourself or get too big for their britches. Given the situation we are in now is that john kennedy almost never talked about himself. Did not use first person singular. Almost never. About anything a man who could have gone on and on to say the least. You mention that in the book. The first person singular is in contrast to so many others. Its what you do in public life but let me turn to the book. You mentioned since the age of 50 have been giving allied otspeeches. Many extemporaneous you must have a lot of that you have used so i am curious why you wanted to do a book of speeches now and why you chose these 15 . Or writing my book about harry truman i love the idea he went on a walk every morning. And then you start thinking so last summer when the comments being made by the republican candidate for themm presidency , to me were not only appalling but unimaginably out of place, i thought what could i do to provide a Counter Point of view to this . I started to think about some of the speeches i gave at National Locations such as the h anniversary of congress or the anniversary of the white house house, kennedys Memorial Service which i was asked to be the speaker. And commencement speeches that i have given at particular occasions of importance and universities. And found there were a great many who was voicing what matters to me and that history is so fascinating and how essential i think it is too large the experience to be alive. Why should we limit our lives in this little bit of time with our biological clocks when we can have access to the whole realm going back hundreds of thousands of years . So i said which of these might be appropriate and my daughter who arranged all these talks and kept the records of what i said. When i read the book the first time i thought he is writing in the times are picking these because they might be apropos and i have heard you say before historians basically dont really have a role of current politics. But i was telling you before they came on the scene in of these were written. I read them a secondhe time thinking what is the paragraph are the point he tries to make here that may be taken to heart . So i read it a second time and each time i was looking in the speech so let me pick out a few. I wont do each one but i think 12 out of 15 were pertinent. So in the first speech in the book from 1989 you quote Margaret Smith from maine who has the guts to rebuke joe mccarthy and said i dont want to see the Republican Party ride to political victory with fear and ignorance and bigotry and sneer. That is the interesting word. Why did you think that . [laughter] it be perfect if only you had a sense of humor. [laughter] can you imagine somebody reading that. Wouldnt that be wonderful . And shes a woman in most have no idea one of the most admirable political figures weve ever had. And not many republicans are standing up now . Not enough. 19981 of the original signers of the declaration he said, i include candor and gentleness and disposition to speak with civility and attention to everybody and then you added words to the wise then but perhaps in our own day more than ever. One of my favorite characters from my m past as a remarkable man someone who is interested in almost everything and the accomplish physician and one of the first people to encourage the humane treatment of Mental Illness not just put them away in a cell as if they were animals. He was extremely courageous in his ability to go into places where the plague was rampant especially yellow fever he rested his life over and over and one of the signers of the declaration of independence and when you sign that he was over 30 years old. We forget how young those people were. Jefferson when he wrote the declaration of independencee was 33. Imagine. Washington took command of the Continental Army was 44 years old. We see them later with their white hair and wigs and elderly statues that they were not that way. They were very very young. That is the encouraging fact of that part of the story. And i think we can ever know enough about the american revolution. And by the way the new museum just opened in philadelphia is a must for all of us. It is marvelous and a place to take your children and grandchildren to get them hooked on history. It is brilliantly organized and a spectacular building and its right in the center of the historic neighborhood just a few steps down the street from Independence Hall. But we who lived in the boston area take reality of that era as part of our environment and thats good and thats great. I love kennedys profiles encourage. I read that when i was young and not aware yet of what i wanted to do with my life. Love his regard for John Quincy Adams. He quotes him at the beginning. What i like and im not here to comment but what i like the word civility which is a lost are in the public discourseat of America Today and the sense of comity of those who share a common goal to be a common and that is gone. And you write we have many instances deep chasms of division in this country but we have come out somewhat will bring us out of this one . The two sides seem so opposed. When politics trumps policy and the sense of National Goals is gone and party goals matter more what brings us out of this . Leadership of the best kind. Leaders who have the courage to stand up to their convictions and the backbone to do whats right irrespective of what it means to their political future or the chance of being reelected. And has to come mainly from the people. We talk about the three segments of