Transcripts For CSPAN2 Books By Hoover Institution Fellows 20240712

You will hear from former secretary of state George Shultz and condoleezza rice, economist thomas foale, kissinger biographer and historian Neil Ferguson, former george w. Bush Administration Justice Department Official john yoo mac and shelby steele. At first, heres a portio here f the interview with George Shultz secretary of state during the reagan administration. He talked about his book is use on my mind. Host you right when it comes to terrorism, we in this country must think hard about the moral stakes involved. If we truly believe in our Democratic Values and way of life, we must be willing to defend them. Passive measures are unlikely to suffice. Means effective defensive deterrence must be considered and given the necessary political support. Guest you say if you have a lawenforcement approach you say okay let a terrorist attack happen. But then we find out who did it, and the drivein in the u. S. Court and if we make them guilty for the endless appeals because the jail. While, what does that accompli accomplish . A certain deterrence i but in te meantime the terrorist act has taken place. In a terrorist attack like 9 11 can kill a lot of people. So i think this trying to prevent things is very important. Its become common we do a great deal in this country. Things didnt happen because we found out about them through intelligence. We prevented them. Ann former secretary of the treasury, George Schultz about his new book, issues on my mind. Mr. Secretary, was your favorite job you ever had. Will use a job. Job implies something that you have to do in order to get some money. And if you see that that ive never had a job my life. George i have done things that i have found rewarding and interesting. Then of a one of doing something that was like that, i would find Something Else to do. But in government, is a great privilege and an opportunity to serve. I had a succession of jobs. Malcolm had their tough moments pretty put all of them work rewarding starting with my june of overseas in the United States marine corps in world war ii. There was, was fighting for my country and in the end, we were victorious. I didnt have much to do with it but i was one person there. And i was in the Eisenhower Administration and economic advisor. It was great privilege. I remember going down to my office it was in this Big Office Building right next to the white house. Used to be called gold safely. And when, i had an office with the wind of the looked out on the south lawn of the white house. And my father, who not died too long after the committee came and took him to my office. He saw this beauty sits on, you have arrived. [laughter]. So it was great. When youre working in the white house complex, you have a view of the whole government. I learned a lot about how you put the statistics together. The top level of the time. So that was a great experience. Then when i was secretary of labor, a new the subject matter very well. I need the department will because it done some things about the kennedy and johnson administrations. Give me that exposure. But it didnt know anything about washington politics in the press and all of that. So i had a good base of knowledge from which to learn. I was fortunate in meeting a m man, to come and be the press person. Joe had worked for New York Times prior no, decades. As a premier labor reporter. He was really good. Anybody read his stories, he could really do a subject. He said he would sign on we had conditions. And i said okay joe, what are your conditions. He said will first of all, but im going to be a spokesman, i have to know what is going on. I have to be able to walk in there. I dont want to be blindsided pretty if im blindsided, but im over. In this of course, you can go anywhere you want. Anybody would be happy to have you there. You know that. So he said what does fly. Mason, joy deployed. He said youd be surprised what happens to people. They come down here, the given the pressure many they dont like to think mislead. Misleading is as this line. So if you have got to be straight. And i said okay i will be straight. What else. A single never have a press conference unless you have some news. Advisable reporters conflict to she was running slow, you dont understand. These are guys who are trying to make a living. The way make a living is good news story with your name on it and it is in the front page of your paper. Ecologists conference and apart things and he said this is my start printing caps and you dont have any news. What is he going to do. He is going to start asking questions make you Say Something stupid. Then thats the news. I learned a lot about the press from joe reed sometimes people write things that you dont like on the whole, if you have a constructive attitude and help them get the facts straight. Youre going to be much better off. There is a guy in the white house who was the political counselor. An congressional relations guy. It took me under his wing to a certain extent. And he had rules. He said never make a promise unless you can deliver on it. And if it turns out that is really hard to deliver. Try all the harder. Because people only deal with you with the trust you read in the trust you if you do what you say you are going to do. And his word was, trust is the coin of the realm. So it always tried to remember that. The Labor Department has some they that will in the congress. I learned something about that. Its a great morning thing. Then i went from there to be director of the budget. There you have a whole government out in front of you. So that was great. I became secretary of the treasury. I was a time when we were greeted the International Monetary system. Send lots of dealings with people all over the world. And i learned a lot about how to do something internationally. So that was great experience for me. Learning was fun. Enjoy people. They eat some are still good friends today. But enforcement secretary of state, the titanic place of the world changed. When ronald ragan and i took office, the cold war was just as cold as it could get rid of who we left, it was all but the shouting. That was a huge thing to be involved in written watch it unfold. Peter mr. Secretary, in your book, issues on my mind. You have some rules for leadership in a couple of those you have already extended on. Like harlow role in that you is to be a participant. George yes. Thats what democracy is all about. Early on and i was working with the primaries, Ronald Reagan give me time. In a tight, incensed democracy is not a spectator sport. So be part of it. A part of the politics be willing to serve. Be a participant. Rule number five. Competence is the name of the game and leadership. George is a great start, to be competent. If youre not competent, going to get in big trouble. Hundreds of experience with that though. I told you when i went to washington as secretary of labor, i was kind of innocent politics. And i have a bunch of political appointees slots to fill. And i realized your train to work with a diverse constituency. So i need best management guy in this industry relations, Labor Relations deal that there is. They told me it was a guy named jim hudson. I cannot get him. I said vault that have a real clever guy. Somebody who negotiates contracts and sells them to reconcile. An really good guy. So you can pretty guy named bill to do that. And he really does manpower training. So we got that. And then somebody who has worked in an area on a to deal with discrimination in the workplace. And so then, a lawyer and is labor market. So anyway i get lot of these people lined up. And president elect nixon felt the initial progress in his administration. So he said pointed to bring them here to this hotel. As headquarters and will have a little meeting it will take them down to meet the press pretty so we have a meeting. We opened up the press. I introduced jim hudson bds inc. All kinds of questions. Its pretty obvious that jim hudson was a real pro. He nobody was doing. Some guy in the Buckingham Palace hennepin said mr. Hudson, i a democrat or republican. In my innocence, i had never even asked him. Denise and i am a democrat. So next thing i remember, a dazzling person. Any just for the same guy falls his hand up and said im a democrat. I would like that. The last guy was jeff. Nobody to be head of the bureau of labor statistics and it was statistician. Martha burns, ray close to president nixon was something that he wanted and i wanted. And i said finally begun a republican prince of the same by asked the question and he stands there like a cow chewing its cud. Then he finally says, like this you have to salmon independent. Back to my hotel room in the phone was ringing off the hook and all the republicans on the Labor Committee said in chino that was an election. This is it, look i cleared them of the ranking republican rated but anyway, getting credit because, guys did terrific. There competent people. These were some of the people who objected and said hey listen we like you guys. And jim hudson secretary of labor and later became my advisor of japan. In the first memo be a big, went on to be a brilliant Northwestern University and so on. Some had ruled all of these people because they were registered democrats. Would not have had the confidence i shouldve asked the question and then something about it but anyway, if you have competent people. You will do much better than if you dont. Your first job is form 19. And get people who are competent in those slots. Peter george sells was one of several of our institution offers and others we interviewed in 2013 bring you can find them all on our website booktv. Org. Next another former secretary of state and soontobe director of the Hoover Institution, rice. In this program of the reagan library, 2017. She talks about her rights, democracy. Stories from the long road to freedom. When i think about democracy, is actually quite a mysterious thing. That people are willing to trust these abstractions, constitutions, rule of law, they are willing to go to the polls and elect people who represent them. Rather than going into the streets are binding to family or clan religion. They trust constitutions and rolloff. That is a very mysterious process. I think as a kid, child growing up in birmingham alabama. I was perhaps one who very early on so something even more mysterious. I saw in segregated birmingham alabama, you can go to a Movie Theater or restaurant if you are a black person. Are you are most certainly of a secondclass citizen. I saw black citizens still, absolutely devoted to the institutions of american democracy. I have one incident in the book that encapsulates this for me. And i was six ish years old and my uncle alto and the mothers brother and pick me up from school and was election day. Theres a long line of black people waiting to vote. I said to my uncle. This must mean that man George Wallace cannot lift. I know we probably do not want him to win. And so my uncle said, auto, he said, where minority so he is going to win. I licked my uncle i said then why do they bother. Michael said, because no monday that vote will matter. As i went around the world, as secretary of state and as long lines of liberians, or afghans or iraqis. South africans. And latin america, people putting is sometimes for the first time. They know that monday that votes will matter. We are blessed with this extraordinary gift, democracy. Americans in particular were blessed with founding fathers. Understood and institutional design that would protect our liberties now trying to say what we think, to worship as we please credit to be free from the secret police at night pretty to have the dignity that comes with having those who are going to govern. You have to ask for your consent. But if we were blessed with that, we believe that we were endowed by our creator with his rights. That cant be true for us enough of them in one of those marvelous legacies of United States of america in the building which we sit. The library was present. One of them most marvelous places Ronald Reagan was that he never forgot our obligation to speak for the voiceless, he never forgot our obligation to do the right things to and those who just one of the civil freedoms that we have. And he delivered. Because you believe that the United States of america is not yet. Its an idea that universal. That is why i wanted to write this book worried. [applause]. Be five newer secretary of state. You are in position to to the world spinning of the United States and the actions better than any other american im sure. Youre not in office now. You are over a hundred days in the Trump Administration read and i wondered if you are able to speak to, hasnt been a change in your mind as to how americans are viewed as we transition from president obama to president trump. Guest i was in europe not too long after the election. As said settle down of the first they said. [laughter]. United states of america is engaging in a little bit of democratic experiment. [laughter]. We just elected somebody who has never been in government before. Was never even stopped the government before. The president is going take some time, a bit of a learning curve but the one thing that you can trust is america has institutions that are absolutely firm and absolutely contrite and will hold america and check. Condoleezza rice so if you with the president present. I think that hes getting used to the fact that actually, its not as easy as it looks in their. That the american presidency is not just one person. It is an institution. As a constraint institution. Founding fathers were very terrified of executive power. If they were leaving a king the didnt want to create another one. So they created congress, two houses is a separate and equal branch of government. Thats article one of the constitution. Is that congress will constantly remind you when youre the in the executive branch. And today, that congress is made up of 535 people muslim say they should be president of the United States. He has a court pretty she learned will challenge the president. And governors, 50 of them. For those think they should be president of the eisai sprayed they have legislatures. It is a process well. And Civil Society and americans who are ungovernable. The job of being present is one thing. And mature there is quite another present learning curve i think is been steep. But i think we have seen some things that really the world likes and with the city in america. I think the decision to strike the syrian airbasesthe chemical weapons attack on his own people was a very important corrective. We had laid out a redline for five years ago. We do nothing in the past. And they run in the market credibility. And that single strike, the administration said this far no further. There is some things are intolerable. I saw Something Else to in the way this present did that pretty represent, i cannot survive and watch babies choking on chemical gas. Only he was really saying was is the president of the United States, i cannot survive a much babies choking on chemical gas. I think theres still a lot of water to pass some of that branch. And we are still learning. In many ways. But it is like to get up and not just react every time. The ragged things have happened. And as americans, we only have one president at a time. What to do everything we can to try to make our president successful. [applause]. [applause]. A large percentage of our audience here, on the left and the right, its a waste of our tax dollars. Wanting to put monies in our schools and all of the rest of that. So the question is coming from the secretary or former secretary of state, do you think there is a foreign aid, is really important from the market people to grasp. Speech of for me it is a little bit the same argument that i would make about democracy. And promoting democracy. You can say lets just Pay Attention to our own affairs. With gun builder bridges, rebuild them and pennsylvania. So why are we building bridges in afghanistan. We could say our schools are not in great shape so what are we trying to Central School in nigeria. You can save all of those things. But i think there are two very powerful arguments against that kind of thinking. What is a moral argument one is a practical argument. The moral argument is this. Americans an idea, and if liberty and the pursuit of happyness are universal and are good for us. Then he can be good for us enough for them. And we are and are best when we they for both power and principle. The principle that no man or child or woman she have to live the direst of poverty in the worst of circumstances. Because we are also a compassionate nation. But actually believe that many problems as we have, we have been given an extraordinary ability. If you go to some of the places in the world did not care how bad it looks in the of america. It is much much worse Pretty Company turn a blind eye to those children lying in the dirt in haiti and any attorney finite to develop pandemic. Library at. [applause]. We are two good to be that way. So the moral argument is that i am christian. Ive been told that what you do for lisa my brothers you do for me. Whatever it tradition is more of that compassion or impulse comes from, america has had it may have to give it. As a moral piece. In practical case. Democratic states that can deliver for their own people, do not invade their neighbors. It out traffic and child soldiers who are ten and 11 result. They do not traffic in the human traits of the women in the brothels in Eastern Europe and southeast asia. They dont harbor terrorists as a matter of state policy. And as democracies, they dont fight each other pretty solid democratic peace. And so there is a reason that we have believed that we are better off when other people beyond the borders can live with decent government to try to take care of them. And yes, i think it was a time when foreign aid was just given for strategic reasons of the soviet union give us money so we give money to someone else. If you look a little bit of guilt about colonialism or whatever. But those days have been long gone for a long time. And if you look at some of the foreign aid that we now run, the millennium challenge is a very good example of this. Millennium challenge says two countries, you will receive large ornate packages from the United States only if youre governing quietly, fighting corruption, investing in your people. And if you are doing this thanks, then we will give you foreign aid. How to be an example. Millennium johns compact. They wanted to do a lot of farms in the third world. Our actually quite inefficient because a very small farms and one of the problems of combining them as nobody know with the title is for the lead. So they were going to do land titles. But that was along the book that women could not hold land in their own name. So the United States of america said that if you want to see done of this part assistance, you will change that law. In the change that law. So when you go abroad and you look at what america has done and aids relief or in humanitarian crises or in the kinds of programs that weve run out of the world. The largest donor a food bank. You recognize the most powerful country in the world, also on be the most compassionate. And its good for us to because when you create responsibles office and act in the International System in a way that enhances prosperity and security, we are all better off. Foreign aid is a very inexpensive way to keep us from ultimately having to intervene in other more expensive toys including by military force. Standford University Hoover Institution was founded in 19199 by herbert hoover. In essence grown to 200 fellows who specialize in a range of Public Policy fields. Our look at books written by Hoover Institution fellows continues with economist thomas soul. He appeared on cspans Author Interview program footnotes in 1992 discusses book, preferential policies. I was fortunate enough in one sense and grown up in the south. I was given Different Levels of education. So i was a top student in my class in north carolina. And was immediately the bottom student of my class in harlem. And i was way behind or next to the bottom. Its just that great. Very painful period of adjustment. But it was no racial issue involved. Although the kids and me were all black. Until i got through that and for the second time in my life, i would honor my own when i was 17 and turned to college when i was about five. For the same time in my life, i went into an environment that had to get used to. Once again, i was way behind. I was in danger of concern out of my school the first semester. I was at harvard. The first time in your life continues to be a fulltime student and a fulltime student at harvard that a high school diploma. So there were difficulties. I was studying general things. I majored in economics. Online degrees are in economics. And it was an enormous adjustment to make. But there was no went there to tell me that all these white professors have it in for you so this way doing badly. For small, i did badly in harlem and i overcame it. And then i would do badly another place i overcame it. Peter how long did you stay at harvard. Will i graduated harvard. I went to howard for your happen then i went to harvard. And i went to howard in the evening when i work fulltime in the day. So it is at harvard i was a fulltime student for the first time in ten years. Peter what years did you go to harvard predict. Graduating class of 58. So you can understand how the students would find this possible. Talk about when recently, he was black and he said when he first got there, that they never gave the black students thanks. And he got a b . It was great confirmation. But is truly criminal what goes on in terms of manipulating students. To serve all kinds of exponential purposes. Peter can you give us an idea of the kind of external purposes youre talking about. A couple days ago, just told theres an investment campaign. Its political. Demonstrations of the whole thing. Those black girls, do not want to participate in that. They were threatened with violence. This is not unique. It is standford, the hispanic students complained that the hispanic establishment has threatened them if they dont want to go along with what is being said and done. He claimed that only 15 percent of the students at stanford have ever attended a single event. That speaks only the name. So you have this kind of things going on at the schools. Again, when to let the students who cannot make the academic standards, then end up having to landed others. We would have to create courses that you dont need. Alst mean skin color, not those that are light and looks black. So keep ones ideological conformity. That isnt uncommon either. I know a black woman for extent who had a phd in published and has a devil of a time getting a job teaching at a college. The reason is she gets shut down by people who dont like her ideology. Law school i learned recently there was a woman who was picking considered for a tenured position and all the men voted for her and then against her. Yothe marketing of these tests d at the time there is the word diversity there is this narrow ideological conformity where people have the power to enforce them. By ann what are the pillars outside of the race issue . Guest i havent been a registered member of any Political Party since 1972 to indict disingenuous and politics mainly by what they do and how they do it. They are quite clever at things they do and that isnt just brace but in general. Cspan has it changed over the years . Guest if its changed its for the worst. People try to talk about limiting the terms in congress. I would like to see if limited to one term or if you are going to allow a member of the house of representatives i would rather they changed that to a fouryear term rather than to twoyear terms and as long as they have to raise all that money it is quite simple. A congress will appropriate enough money to pay them back a thousand dollars on every dollar. You cant get that kind of return on your investments so theres no sign that they are going to stop doing that or congress. Fullstop giving them money. By ann looking at the cover, preferential policies of the national perspective. We had about 20 minutes left in the discussion. In history who are your favorite people . Guest do you mean historical figures or people i want to when i was growing up . By cspan that you follow up . Guest i find it horrifying most High School Students do not know who that is. One thing alone if any one man could have been said to have favored it would be winston churchill. He sold the dangers that led to world war ii. It would have been 40 Million People that wouldnt have lost their lives but even at the 11th hour it was enough had to pretend not pulled through, the United States would have pulled through and its highly unlikely i would be sitting here alive. Cspan your favorite american president . Guest thats tough. Abraham lincoln, i guess. Its a shame to go all the way back to Abraham Lincoln to find a president one can be admired. In retrospect i would say if they are, john f. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan. They recognize in International Danger and i wish all the otherr issues wouldnt matter. Cspan you have an ideology. Guest im a great believer in the maximum freedom. Cspan libertarian . Guest i dont believe that the hoodlums who should be kept in school because of some strange reading of the constitution. People have to recognize all people over their lives cannot simply demolish it because it is unjust and what youre going to do to make it better will have to be within that context. My tendency is to want i dont want people making decisions who dont pay the price and that is what politics is all about. One of the reasons w we have the jim crow era in the country is because the politicians didnt pay the price. That was enormously costly to. They drew their folds very. I wanted someone who has to lose money discriminating because like the example i gave hi in te book, people tend to back off when they start losing big money. Harlem was an allwhite community and became a black Community Despite efforts to keep them out because people were losing money try to keep it a white community. People in the Civil Rights Era by not trying to promote more free markets because that makes discrimination the most costly. Cspan one of the most interesting sentences is about india where you say that they are the most diverse country in the world with 180 different languages and 500 dialects. Are they more of a multipart in the United States . Guest good heavens, no they dont melt in the slightest. They are polarized. One of the tragedies we have organized groups in the United States trying to balkanize to create in the United States that enormous handicaps under which india and many parts of Subsaharan Africa are laboring due to all kinds of historical and geographical reasons and now having escaped all that and having been blessed with having one language or culture would go from madrid to moscow, having had the blessing we are now going to go for the balkanization not being aware of what hasinto trying to be in the same society. Cspan user that the Race Relations would have on the campus. If this keeps up, whats going to happen . Guest it will get worse and worse. Skinheads were already recruiting on college campuses. It was on a scale unseen 20 or 30 years ago. Then there is the reaction on both sides of the someones head anything now between the arabs and the jews have to be at five city where saying one man has to leverage a to work out an arrangement between the two of them and of course once you get this racial height, you put that power into the hands of demagogues and hoodlums to prevent their numbers of people thathat may be decently disposed not to be able to do anything. Cspan back to the campus but is creating the prejudice other than the elites that you talked about. What is it among the people that create the difference is that they dont get along . Guest blacks and whites were different when i was there but you didnt find them huddled together at one time under a table the way you do on the campuses today. The ones i knew were all popular other than me but that isnt the situation today. Cspan what is causing it to . Guest they have their agendas and they are forced to come out and do the demonstrations and whatnot. The fact that you have students that are tremendously alienated because they find themselves in a situation where academically all they can do to keep their nose above water if they can do that and if theres someone there to tell them this is all due to the white power structu structure. The vendettas called insensitivity and its also self reinforcing. There are actions and there are some that keep feeding each other. Invariably the first thing that would be said is we have a larger quota of minority students and faculty and we must subject to the white students to the sensitivity courses were ethnic courses but have you. Thathat isnt going to make this better. Its going to make them worse because they get worse, you keep doing that so it is just an upward spiral i just dont know where its going to hit. Youre bringing me in 20 years now. But i come to princeton and concur with this person or that person, no, no one has ever asked me in all the years to come to the university and do this. I dont think theres the slightest interest in anything i have to say about it because the ideologues they have the word, the truth, the light and dont want to be confusing the issue. Weve opened up the archives to look at all their programs with fellows from Stanford Universitys Public Policy think tank Hoover Institution. Next historian Neil Ferguson discusses his authorized biography of the former secretary of state Henry Kissinger was also a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Mr. Ferguson appeared on the Weekly Program after words in 2015. This is the first of the two buck authorized biography and you say not only has it been written with Henry Kissingers cooperation but his suggestion. How did that happen . Guest authors ought to be nervous of it because it implies he had some control over it when he suggested this to me just now more than ten years ago, i said yes i am willing to do this, but on one condition you have to kind of accept if you ask me to do this comin this and give me o your private papers i will write what i think is the truth which is incidentally the basis on which ive heard in the previous book. So he agreed to that. So in that sense it isnt authorized. I wouldnt have taken it on and any other basis. Host did you know him beforehand, how did he find you . Guest he read my stuff. We were at a party in london and i told this in full disclosure we were talking about one of the books that id written into the sort of math on that basis and i forget exactly when but sometime after that, the subject came up. I wasnt the first person that had been considered for this job, but when he put the question to me, i initially said no and he then wrote me a very Henry Kissinger later. Host letter or email . Guest letters. He doesnt do email. It said what a great shame. Just when i decided you were the ideal man to do this and just as i found 150 boxes of my private papers that i thought were lost. Once i started looking at the stuff i decided i should do it. It is an extremely difficult like to write for a whole range of reasons. After i started to read the these papers within a few hours i thought i have to take this on. Host this is not a man that has been undocumented. He is also shared some information. He spoke with walter isaacson. Why do you think that he wanted this book for ten . Guest by training he is a historian and a historian knows that memoirs are different from the histories, from the biographies. His three volumes cover this period before 1969 so half of his life and affect that he hadnt written about and Walter Isaacsons book, which is very good, is essentially a journalist with based on interviews and i think the idea was somebody should write a scholarly biography based on documents into the archival sources because that simply didnt exist. Theres a bunch othere is a bunu can find in libraries most of them are not based on much more than hearsay but i think the argument for the scholarly biographer is a compelling one and as it turned out, that material was very good and rich and i was lucky because that whole period from his earlier stage right down to the moment the job of the National Security adviser had been neglected by the previous writers. Host you are often described as a conservative historian. Do you think that he shows you in part for that reason . Guest yes. I think it was more important that im british so, because i think there is some advantage to being an outsider in writing a work of american history. One characteristic feature of Henry Kissingers life has been the extraordinary political controversy since the 70s that has raged on ever since and in some ways its off the generation of 1968 that came of age during the vietnam war. I am somebody that can come at this i dont have the memorabilia from woodstock to in my attic. I think that its worth maybe adding a footnote because it means Something Different if youve grown up in the uk it isnt republicanism and i am not by any means a republican in my politics now that i live in the United States. Im a conservative in the way the tiebreaker. Co kissinger was a conservati conservative. In the same kind of way passengers conservatism is a european variant, so is mine and that may be one reason that he thought it would work. Host when you say european conservative, are they in the National Security realm . Guest its the social issues and those things that i regard not being in the name of politics or National Security issues. Its often the case people get confused into thinking that there is some kind of argument going on about National Security. Ive been critical in recent years of president obama but i was also critical of his predecessor in the book colossus published in 2004. I was extremely critical of the invasion of iraq and the way the occupation was handled. So part of the reason for doing this, i can on into the debate about the u. S. Foreign policy from the moment that i stepped foot in the u. S. And id probably approached his brother naively thinking that i could criticize republicans and democrats. Its hard to be in that position. Your expert to the one side or the other but i think on National Security issues im more of an independent. Host theres no question theres been a convergence of the end of the cold war and if you look at issues like iraq itself there were people on the left with humanitarian challenges and others isolationist. Im not sure besides somebody that chooses casebycase. Guest or somebody that recognizes there cannot be a simple party line on these National Security issues and somebody that doesnt want to be on the party line on the social and cultural issues. And arrestingly i found that kissinger as a young man was rather in the same position he thought of himself as a small c. Conservative. He certainly didnt self identify as a liberal in the 1950s or the 1960s. But when he encounters the conservatives Berry Goldwater conservative 64, the republican convention, he was appalled at having an uneasy relationship with the right of the Republican Party indeed with the neoconservatives as well and that is something to think about and it may explain why hes a controversial figure. He had enemies on the left but also on the right about whether the soviet union was a sellout. Host said th so the book isd the idealist which is a rather contrarian take on kissinger who even in the kindly description was described as the ultimate realist, not a direct descendent of machiavelli. So what you explained in the book really is not a wilsonian notion of idealism. Can you explain for the audience at home what you mean by idealist when it comes to kissinger and why traditionally that ibut that isnt really the description that you are using. Iit is true most people think of Henry Kissinger as the realist and the names they throw around our machiavelli. They argued the United States should follow the selfaddressed but he wasnt one of them there was this notion that i begin to think not many people have done. I was really struck by something that was political realism. Hes highly critical of so i started to think theres something funny here and then i dug deeper into the development. There is an experience to make them not highly surprisingly critical. It has been a very interesting essay because they were the Foreign Policy disregarded to the human rights abuses. His own experience makes him suspicious what he saw. He comes to harvard and to try to get rid of this undergraduate, professor of government has effectively come back when you are finished and underestimating and ultimately put it into his senior thesis. Particularly in the problem that on the one hand there is such a thing as freedom, free flow, the experience is real but on the other hand argues there is some kind of plan for the world leading ultimately to perpetual peace and the discussion in the senior thesis and ultimately the experience of choice is a real one and freedom as kissinger defines it is in the experience. Kissinger rejected the materialism and the materialist views of history and capitalist material that said if our growth rate is higher than their growth rate we will win the cold war. Kissinger emerge as as a rarity but thats what made his contribution distinct and stand out from the people who thought you can come forward with systems analysis and things of that sort. John yoo worked in the office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department and the george w. Bush Administration Just look at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco in 2012 about his coauthored book taming globalization. With me just briefly describe the case and how that encapsulates. It is a case of a Mexican National who across the border committed a capital murder and sentenced to death by the state court of texas. He wasnt however given his warnings under the conventions that require when an alien is arrested in the United States he be given warnings that he can speak access and give translators and so on. Texas refused to reconsider its position even though they havent provided these boardings is provided by the treaty. The country went to the International Court of justice to say the United States violated its obligations into the court of justice found against the United States and said the United States had picked violated our obligations and issuehad issued an order toe United States to hold the execution and the others who were in the same situation. President bush issued an order to the governor of texas to governor perry asking him to stop the execution so the United States could come into compliance with the convention at the justice decision. Texas refused and actually was sued in the Supreme Court and refused to stop the execution. In a decision the Supreme Court said even though you the United States signed the convention that required this kind of warnings, the congress had yet to do something to put it into effect and until congress did the, the courts were not going to get into the business of enforcing the treaty even in the case when someone was on death row. It is complicated but the one case summarizes a lot of issues in this book. The first is its cost a lo causf changes in the political and legal system and we mean a few things, the easy and rapid and chief movements of goods and capital across National Borders so for example millions of aliens cross the Border Crossing the country. Billions of dollars of goods and Services Also cross the borders. The last i think 30 of american Gross National product is either related to imports or exports and billions of dollars moved between accounts here and abroad. Globalization also refers to the ease of communications and rise of the internet into the creation of new kinds of networks to make it easy and cheap for people to communicate and for things of god to protect us here at home in a way that it didnt use to 50 years ago or 25 years ago so if you look today at the american stock markets, they move up and down to what is happening in greece and whether they will be able to pay back the bonds has a direct and immediate impact. Thats something that probably wouldnt have happened but we would be the first to admit it isnt an unrelated thread. It also makes bad as possible so for example, vonage works, drug smuggling, pollution, terrorism. A lot of these problems cross to move around the world as goods and capital and people do. That has sparked the response to try to create regulatory regimes that control these new types of globalization. We call it Global Governance people refer to it as Different Things but the basic idea is it is outside of the power of a single nation state to regulate these things anymore it used to be to affect most of the goods, services and capital but today because of the ease of transportation and communication and globalization, it lies outside of the power of most to regulate so you had the new kind of governance. One is the International Agreements now try to regulate worldwide that to effectively regulate something they have to have a scope that it didnt usually have sued to regulate chemical weapons worldwide, the convention regulates the production and existence of every kind of chemical in the world no matter who possesses it even thos those polled by reseah laboratories, research, private persons fall under this convention so one thing you see as broad a scope. The second is the new rise of International Institutions that are natural. In order to regulate and force, the institutions have to be seen as outside of the control of any country so you have the rise of things like not just the United Nations and Security Council and the court of justice which i just mentioned, but things like the Chemical Weapons Convention has a sticker. Or the World Trade Organization has a those outside of the control of any one country but because of that independence and that kind of power it used to be fair to say they were under the control of some nations but now they are seen as being independent if they were to reach an agreement that global warminwith globalwarming they wf these characteristics in ways that the federal government doesnt here at home even to the extent of regulating Domestic Energy usage and at the same time an institution to determine how much each country was allowed to produce in terms of energy, how much pollution it was allowed to make and also to measure whether people in violation and issue sanctions and no one would trust that institution is strictl directlyr the control of the United States or the European Union or china. It would lose its legitimacy and its independent function of the regime within function unless you have an independent institution separate from the controlled nationstates. I dont feel that these were descriptions of whats going on. Its been going on in accelerating in the last few years and our view is as if plays us tighter to the rest of the world you will see more and more of these kind of agreements and institutions. The problem isnt that they are done at the international level. The question for us and the book is how does the system respond. Can the United States respond to and how. That is the fundamental heart of the book because as you can guess in my description of some of the new kinds of regulations or intention than the way the United States traditionally exercises public power and particularly to the prerogatives of congress over control of domestic law and taxation but also of the executive branch and the judiciary. To give an example when a treaty regulating issue its standard doctrine treaties are not limited by the same restrictions that apply to the congressional statutes so there was a famous case where a it was fought congress couldnt regulate and protect the species of birds. The court struck down statutes that try to protect birds. The United States entered a treaty implemented by congress where congress did the same thing the court said it couldnt do and the Supreme Court said they couldnt be bothered to regulate things domestically that it couldnt do with a normal congressional statute. They will be called in to another state havent been involved in the because International Law and regimes and institutions are affecting more and more things come it will by nature drove the courts into the kind of delicate position about politics and Foreign Affairs that they use to try to stay out of. We conclude our look at folks with author shelby steele. This interview took place at the libertarian conferenclibertariam fest in las vegas in 2017. Mr. Steele was there to talk about his book how americas past sins have polarized the country. That word seemed to bring together everything i was trying to work within this book and so the idea is they perpetrated it, dehumanized relentlessly for a very long time so its a profound evil and stunning greatness and now i think its finally delivered us from what we were doing wrong but on the other hand, it is a shame. I think its one of the most important events in this society that is grounded in freedom so the book sort of looks at different aspects of that irony. In my reading of it belongs to the 1960s liberal movement in your view and its thats whats caused the political polarization. Is that a Fair Assessment . Spinnaker that is very fair. American liberalism changed and took responsibility for dealing with that and saying in effect we are going to regain america. For the last 50 to 60 years simply because of the propriety over this typical shame and said we will save america from it and we will have great societies and the war on poverty and correct that and that will restore our legitimacy. Host in your book the end word is used pretty liberally. You said some groups coopted it they didnt necessarily want to be that they coopted the word . Guest yes. They sort of subscribed to that word a kind of power and truth but did serve their argument coming from minorities in america. Now you have admitted all that you did and that gives us an entitlement to so that was part of a theme that contributed to the larger point of view. Why did you include the story in this . I was the only black kid on the Swimming Team and the captain of the team that in the summer before my senior year, he had three weeks of Summer Vacation for the entire team at his mothers home in upper Lake Michigan and never invited me. I was excluded. The team organized it without me knowing anything about it. This wonderful time they were going to have at the lake and i was never told about it. The implication is he collaborated with racism. He was my friend. He honored that. She knew better and yet he collaborated with sending me a message that said there was something unacceptable about me and he wasnt able to see that, but i think that he was. I talk about him and this is the situation of this sort of profound hypocrisy that america is now in and when he got mad he caught me every name in the book. I was called because i once did because she was wrong and i knew he was wrong. But this minority power. That little incident of putting the Swimming Team and i didnt because they excluded me. I grew up in segregation and i saw it all the time. I knew that he was compromised and thats what it ended up amounting to. Host what was your parents like in 1940s chicago . Guest my father was a black from the south, thirdgrade education taught himself to read and write. My mother was upperclass from chicago to the contractor. On the surface they were very different once you got to know them. They were Exceptional People in that they knew they would have to fight for their place in American Life and they did without ever complaining or any compunction. They were founding members and i grew up with i marched and demonstratedemonstrated benefitt those that i came out of. Were they wrong . They were not. They were right. They were not wrong. In their day this was a racist society. I grew up i couldnt go here or there. There was a restaurant until i was 17 and the Swimming Team because you couldnt get a job there. Segregation was everywhere. They were fighting a real concrete unapologetic army in American Society that sets listen, forget about it whereas the great novelist said in one of the essays in the 50s you are probably right, but go slow. Obviously weve never heard of patrick henry. My parents would give me freedom or give me death. They fought until the end so i grew up seeing all of that and it had an impact on who i became in the long run, but they were too it no longer stops the dreams and hopes of any black person in American Life. You can do anything you want, you can be the president , ceo, dishwasher, anything you choose to be today. If that means every white person is going to love you, i dont know and dont care. Whats important is that you have that opportunity. So the Civil Rights Movement today is different than back then they are not fighting against an enemy. They are fighting now basically further rewards. They are manipulating white guilt using the story to manipulate the story of the society into the entitlements or we have a generation this isnt the Civil Rights Movement of my time or the one i grew up in. Host what is your connection at the Hoover Institution . Guest i am a senior fellow at Stanford University with a great environment integrates colleagues. I am a fan. This month we are featuring the tv programs is a preview of whats available at the weekend on cspan2. Next new york staff writer provides her take on life in the u. S. Since the election of president trump