I am honored to be here today with doctor Jennifer Eberhardt who has done what i consider very fascinating work in the area of human behavior. Today we will talk about your latest book which i love the title because i think it really conveys the area that we need to focus on welcome. Its great to be here with you today. Its a pleasure to be here. You talk about what i would say, i use the words how we are conditioned. And to respond to certain people in be very to very as implicit bias and talk about how it shows up in any profession i spent 27 years as a Law Enforcement officer and chief of police and how it can show up in the profession but you show how implicit bias shows up in any protect on any professions or talk about your background and so explain what you mean by implicit bias and how is that different from what we all know and just plain old racism . Im a professor at Stanford University and i study race and the quality and i live in the criminal justice space and education and then neighborhoods and how they evaluate and there is no area of life where it cant get under our skin of how we think and make decisions and how we act and to follow that across all these different spaces help people grapple with race so we can start their. Implicit byron bias is not the product of racism. Not necessarily. The product that we are wired to categorize and fixate and have beliefs and even with those with the awareness and that is what implicit biases and the social groups that can influence our decisionmaking and actions even when were not aware of it. Thats the definition which is different from evil people so talking about everyday people and then to exhibit the buyer bias in the decisions they need to make. And it can affect all races and where racism is more deliberate and learned behavior. It is conscious and a lot of people talk about that as oldfashioned racism and that implicit virus on bias you may not even know that you have that. Or how you are thinking event. And we dont always know and how we evaluate someone. You mentioned what you referred to in the book as the association of characterization. That was fascinating to me how you talked about how that influences how they experience things and people and that our brains are wired to categorize. Tell me what you mean by that. You need to categorize to make sense of all the stimulus regarding us. We have to figure out a way to organize and make it coherent so we have some sense of controls and a better idea of what it is that is out there to make good decisions. Its almost like i cant handle everything it is exposed to. So the techniques our brains used to deal with that information. And we dont just categorize people but animals, furniture, plants, all sorts of things. But that categorization allows us to engage in the world and the world becomes more coherent but is also something that we do with people in social groups and those and develop feelings of those people in that category and those feelings they are called prejudice and together thats called bias. And you write about what you talk about the cringe worthy expression that they all look alike. So now as i sit here and think about that term which i heard before my first thought is that anyone who would utilize that cringe worthy expression they must be a racist or a bigot that you say really it could be a function of biology and exposur exposure . Yes. Babies as young as three months of age already show a preference of faces of their own race so that is something that starts early and part of why that is shown has to do with what you are exposed to if you are exposed to faces only have your own race as that tends to happen so then you learn and your their brain grows up on those of your own group and then you dont come into contact as much with people of a different race and then for the for those that face all one type at the expense of really being able to process and recognize faces of other races. So the phrase they all look alike . How does that translate to buy a sewer racism to behavior that would hurt . I certainly understand baby at three months old but thats not a bad thing. How does that lead to bad results . To make it is a precursor for bias they are built to categorize because once you are in that category and you cant distinguish one space from another it is a category that they become interchangeable. Amanda believes that we have about people like that to all the people of that category. I love you use examples in the book because it is very scientific and you dont think of it having is that biological origin. But you also talked about a situation where the victims even what they were exposed to were unable to identify that people around them. So thats what youre talking about that they all look like. When i first got there are back in 2014 and then is chinatown and then they would snatch their purses from their arms. And then to get information and then the middleaged women couldnt tell the officers who it was. Even when they had a chance and they clearly saw the face even when the police would go to them they could not tell you once the face disappeared her was. And then to be focused on chinatown and then say you cant tell us apart. And then not be caught and then the women could not identify them. So there are certain training sessions so that they become better at recognizing their attackers. Pay attention to things that are distinctive dreadlocks . Shorthair . Gold tooth . But to give them the strategies that we just couldnt do it we couldnt get past even though we are motivated. And then to recognize those faces they were exposed to something they didnt know how to process. And as a little girl i was worried how i would be accepted and so forth and then and then and then the problems to figure out who was two. That actually i could not remember their faces or distinguish one from the other. And it was surprising to me the whole concept that you are talking about that they all look alike we might associate with racism goes both ways. So you came up with distinguishing marks these were your friends and is at the person or is that the person i really thought something was wrong with me why cant i do this basic thing you think anybody can do and now i lost my ability to distinguish one from the other and then two years later i recognize that had a name with scientific studies. And any group it is coming but not insurmountable. Over and over again as he moved to that neighborhood at tech some time to catch up with a new environment but it did and i could recognize. That was a welcoming environment and loving environment where they were kind it to you that was your experience day in and day out. Where you may not know the other group you dont know those characteristics or the culture to have a very different impact. It can and that implicit bias from what you see from your actions. Talk about that bias and how children will pick up on the characteristics of their parents. They will love you with their parents love you are except you are shiny with their parents do. And there are studies done and then how they are viewed and then they study because they are experience has been negative. With black actresses with Police Officers in lawyers and teachers. How that is perceived in communities or society didnt make a difference . That was by several researchers at Tufts University looking at those that are serving role models for those who are watching those shows. Take popular shows like greys anatomy for csi. They gave people to second clips to look at. And then they cut out the person that they are looking at either a black actor or a white actor. So they are showing the images of these people and then they ask them to describe and then that person is evaluated. And then the black actor that is the target of these nonverbals were more negative. And then when they ask them and it is something that is subtle but they were picking up on it. So the finding basically they were treating that unseen black character more tentatively negatively. And then to get this bias contagion it wasnt just those that were on the movie set or the tv set but also the people who watch those shows looking at people watching those shows to be expose that actually increases your own implicit bias. Thinking that this is the answer. So that study showed. Think of a person of any profession and their exposure for your he talked about and even a very controlled situation with africanamericans playing a positive role you talk about how those who were watching the footage had minor flaws if you will to the certain expression that appear to have grown up as opposed to see that person solely as an africanamerican doctor or Police Officer or teacher. Even Young Children pick up on this. And how other people see and how they should treat that person. Fourth and fifth graders were shown a clip of someone and fourth and fifth graders took on the attitudes of the person that was treating that person well or negatively. So they are watching what we do and who deserves good treatment or bad treatment. Doctor Jennifer Eberhardt i love to being a Police Officer. I did it for many years. As he talked about those challenges 99 percent do not result in any use of force we pay a lot of attention as we should but its a tough job. It can be a very dangerous job. Talking about people consciously or unconsciously trying to decide what action to take i would think bias plays a role in a job that is very dangerous and Police Officers feel like they communities a try to protect and serve do not protect for them and that would just exacerbate. You point out a few incidents that took place. How do you believe as you look at those situations . Elect at video available with that shooting that occurred . And then to visit her sister and her brother that she grew up with. And then i know you personally experience the pain because you met her and spent time with her. As you video his shooting from the twin sister you also studied how do you believe unconscious bias played a role ultimately what happened in those cases . Is a social scientist its hard for me to say what happened in one particular case. So what i do is try to look at the cases and then isolate the features and study them in a laboratory. Even when they say there is a correlation we dont know how much racist is driving that or another factor to correlate. So to do that we can take a situation and have that same situation and present people with a case to say we want you to evaluate the situation to change the study participants they see a black person taking this action for the target or another group of subjects or a white person. That allows us to isolate race. Because that controls everything. For one case it could have been the location or how we move. There are a lot of factors. Thats part of the bias to look at lots of cases and how people are responding across the board. I give you an example of some of this. There is a study conducted decades ago by a socialblack ped at that as violent. Now the same shot of with a black person shoving a white person now 75 percent that is violent. I remember about reading that study the action was the same the only difference was and then how do you get to 75 percent. They are more inclined to say the white person who shoves a black person was just fooling around with only 6 percent characterized the black persons actions in that way so when he shows that they say thats playing around thats a huge difference the difference that race makes. How do you take that information that clearly are no extenuating factors this is not a situation in a straight street or neighborhood this has been set up how do you take that information . Even if you use that as a training tool how do you take that information and then to understand that scenario . You want to understand how race can play a role in how people respond. And repeat the study and tighten it up and controls in the movement precisely i and all of that is a sometimes thats good to hear because it allows us to the approach was with more vigor. If you keep doing the studies and techniques to. The other thing is part of why people might be resistance is because there is a sort of underlining feeling so this gets back to the earlier conversation about how we are even defining bias so if it is accepting this word and it means i have to think about myself as a bad person, thats going to be hard for me to do so im going to be resistance to it. Then you can actually hear it. Host do you think that is the main reason that people are so fearful to discuss race . And you see it on both sides, not just one. Is it fear that they will label them if they question in any way or honestly and openly express their fears or beliefs or how they were raised or how theyve been influenced that they feel they are going to be labeled and when labeled in america its kind of tough to overcome. Guest its one of the worst things you can call someone is racist and if they behave differently to this person versus the person and to think it is based on race people get really upset about that. It is an affront to the character of the person so i think what the science allows us to do is kind of step back from all of that and look at it without accusations but to understand how this is operating and affecting us with the gold of making things better and understanding the conditions under which this is most likely to havto happen so we can avoide conditions. That is one of the big debuts in science. Host in the opening chapter you start off talking about your work with Police Officers in early training sessions overwhelmingly welcoming. [laughter] its like i dont have a problem, maybe you do. [laughter] host im going to resist everything you have to offer. I think we all know whether Law Enforcement or every profession, we want better relationships and community, we want to be a strong and Safe Community that race is tough. You used the story of your son when you all were on the plane to break the ice. Guest i was trying everything. [laughter] there was no way out. I had to come up with something so i told the story about my son who was 5yearsold at the time. We were on an airplane and he was looking around on the plane, so excited up in the air and seeing the clouds and checking it all out and then he sees this guy on a plane and says that guy looks like dad. I look and he doesnt look anything at all like my husband. I look around and notice hes the only black guy on the plane and think okay, you are going to get the talk. This leads to the discussion we had earlier. Thinking he thought all black people look alike so im going to have to have a talk with him about that. Then what he said next before i could have the talk he looked up and said i hope he doesnt rob the plane. 5yearsold, the expert on all of this. Thats what he was thinking. Guest i didnt want to hear that. What mother would want to hear that. I looked at him and i said why would you say that. You know daddy wouldnt rob a plane and he said i know. I said why would you say that lacks he looked at me and have a really sad face and said i dont know why i said that. I dont know why i was thinking that. Host out of the mouths of babes. I think the answer that he didnt know i think could be transferred to every profession. They really dont know. We get there in an unconscious way. I didnt pretend it happened. I had a discussion and wanted him to reflect on his words and why he said it and ask himself why am i thinking this and saying this. I do like that is our role as parents is to help our children with this. Host im not sure how i would have handled it. I think that it was so important at the moment that you didnt say dont say that in end of discussion. We have a tendency to do that because thats the easier way to deal with tough subjects and situations. You asked why did you say that. Guest its not only dont say that but children come to understand your not supposed to notice race. There are some adults the way to be a good person is to be colorblind but a lot of the research on this suggests otherwise. Host we are not colorblind and will not be. Guest its hard to be colorblind when everything is associated with color from birth to death. The issue is when you teach your children not to see color you also teach them not to see discrimination and that is a problem. Host and i think that you teach them not to tell you who they are, their eccentric selves, to ignore it. We dont want because we do not have a colorblind society. What we want is my color doesnt matter to you when youre making a decision about how or whether i am hired or not. That was such a profound lesson in a conversation with your son. You also talk about your approach after one of your sessions by a young white male is no cure from germany i believe and he was talking about his own experiences while on patrol and how he is affected if you will buy what he hears over and over again on his police radio. Guest hes been training at different places. Being on the ground in these different places you understand a lot more about whats happening and even sort of what officers are experiencing on the streets. I was at one of these trainings and the person came up to me from germany. I think that hed only been in the states for a couple of years and he told me he could feel his mind shifting like to think abouofhimself as being open and friendly and he would treat people as individuals but after being on patrol and hearing constantly male black over the dispatch over the radio it started to work on him and he started to think okay so these are the people committing Violent Crimes and who i need to watch out for and it became almost instinctual where he would see a black person and be watching them into making sure where are his hands and all of that. She noticed he started trading every black person as they were a suspect. He was acting in a way that was so unlike him. Again its a reflection and talking about it. We tend not to want to talk about it but they brought it to his attention and forced him to reckon with it and he was worried about it like this job is taking this thing away from me. Guest that is all you see and you are forced to make that pairing black with criminality, black crime, over and over again. Host the only thing you hear they are being lifted up his in a criminal way to. There is no this person graduated from high school and has their doctorate, that isnt what they are constantly hearing. They are constantly hearing there was a robbery, burglary, theft, male black. Guest so these people are criminals. Most cities you have a tiny percentage of people that actually committed crimes even with Racial Disparities but then you start to expand that to the whole category and it starts to bleed over to other people who have nothing to do with that criminal activity so thats the problem and again goes back to the earlier discussion we were talking about these middleaged Chinese Women in chinatown. You cant distinguish one from another and this is the category that can kind of take control of us and we start to treat people in certain ways and associate them with them all with this characteristic in this case commonality. Host you write in your book about how race plays a part of a. It it is less favorable. They are willing to they just want to be out of there. Host just being totally exonerated if you will, they are willing to take a plea bargain just so they can get out of jail. Talk about the longterm effects you dont have the money to pay your bail so you take the plea bargain, god bless public defenders as they are overworked and underpaid that they are trying to. So you take the plea bargain living in the moment but talk about sometimes some of the longterm effects that can follow you well beyond the data they were released. Guest you have a criminal record now that follows you say you have a criminal record that could affect all kinds of things coming your employment, your ability to get student loans, your housing. It follows you and there is research looking at a price of a criminal record and are seeking employment and it is huge for people who have criminal records versus those who dont and a difference in terms of callbacks for an interview submitting an application for a job there is a difference by race. Host white people are more likely to get a callback than black people with criminal records. White people with criminal records got about the same number of callbacks as blacks with no criminal records so its both a criminal record and raised its operating there and when you put the two together it really compounds things and could affect your life chances and also affects people who are not even involved in that situation so youve made a decision say to accept a plea bargain or whatever and now youve said you are guilty. That affects people come how strongly people associate blacks with crime generally because now your evidence for this legitimate association between blackness and crime so you traded your freedom and it makes sense in that circumstance because thinking about your odds in all of that to say im going to plead guilty so every person who pleads guilty to it leads people to see the races dont they almost come to see blacks as criminal and disproportionately committing crime so you can see how it is kind of a system built up thats affecting how we think and the public and their associations that they are making. Host there are 2 Million People are incarcerated i that n about 700,000 are released annually. You have to think about them what. I know youve also done some work within the prison system. There are so many good things in here. Can you talk about the Princeton University project and some of your experiences with inmates and working with them to prepare them for success in the future and why that is so important . Guest i was happy San Quentin State Prison in Northern California and i worked as a volunteer instructor. Host another tough crowd. Guest thats funny. They really appreciated me. [laughter] dot guess i got there and i was worried being i haven hadnt tn that kind of environment before and i wasnt sure how they would receive me or the information i had to share but it was an incredible experience and there were people who were trying to turn their lives around and develop and learn and they are thinking about education as a way to improve so as an educator of course i love that and it was just the opposite of a tough crowd. When i started i was initially very nervous and just Little Things set me off and made me nervous. In the book i was given the example of the anytime a student moveany time astudent moved eve, whats going on the. But then hes approaching me with and he was just trying to get to the door. Just my own bias. Host but ten out of ten probably would have been the way that you did. Guest it helped us to see how we can carry biases. I was there to teach but it was kind of getting in my way of doing that at least initially. I was just nervous looking for the guard and about the back window and whats going to happen. They would be more quiet and we couldnt have opened discussions with the guards sitting there. I wanted from went from wanting to be there to wanting to stay away. It was a real experience and an example of what we talked about at the beginning we all are vulnerable to bias. It isnt just something about being a bad person. What i was exposed to and sort of my understanding of who inmates were and what they were like and a lot of that is from all this exposure because i havent spent that much time in a prison before so that comes from television and movies and narratives about who these people are seeing them as inherently bad. I have to think about why am i reacting that way. Host you also write about implicit bias versus explicit and reference charlottesville and the whole attitude you spoke about one racists and racist attitudes being different. You also mention how the federal government, sometimes i think that there are unintended consequences. You talk about the problems they face in this area and how they are compounded by legislation that might be passed with segregation of neighborhood housing, schools, other institutions and how that just helps to compound the problem. You say that if we are going to deal with an implicit bias weve got to look in the mirror. So many examples of implicit biases where do we go from here if we are all going to get better. There are studies by social psychologists like where are the conditions and how are we mindful of those situations so we can understand and to slow things down so this is one of the areas you are more likely to have this bias when you are having to make a decision quickly and we go on automatic pilot basing our decisions and how we are thinking on what weve learned before a dig at the affects and of the decisions and influence in our behavior so we want to slow things down and to have the bias emerged when we feel threatened and fearful. Some of these situations cops are in if you are feeling threatened and fearful than have to make a decision quickly you could be more vulnerable to racial bias in that situation than if you had time to think it through. Before i got to open california they changed that patrol policy and there are a lot of people getting hurt and sometimes when there was a shooting often times it was associated with a foot chase and is out they changed the policy so they didnt allow officers anymore to take people into enclosed dark spaces where you would lose sight of the person and say rather than chasing the person into the situation they want you to step back and call for backup. So theres time for the resources and you slow it down. You changed the policy and they used to have eight or nine officer involved shootings a year and now they only have eight officer involved shootings, eighth in the last five years. The. Officer injuries went down by like 75 or something. But these are also the conditions with the formal policies that would promote the bias. So you need to step back and slowed down. That is an example of how we can think about getting applied to these situations but obviously matter quite a bit. Congratulations to you on the outstanding work that youre doing and congratulations on your book uncovering the hidden prejudice that shapes what we see, think and do. Thank you so much