Transcripts For CSPAN2 Education Secretary DeVos Testifies On Presidents 2021 Budget Request 20240713

Protection commissioner mark morgan is among the witnesses scheduled to appear before the Senate Commerce aviation subcommittee. Education secretary betsy devos testified on the 2021 budget request, members asked about Public Education resources and nondiscrimination policies. The subcommittee will come to order. Good morning, secretary devos. Welcome to the subcommittee. This is our second Budget Hearing of the year and your forth on hearing with us and we are going to examine the president s the permit of education budget request for fiscal year 2021. As i was reviewing the budget material, this much was clear to me. You are seeking to privatize Public Education. It is the wrong direction for students and our country. We need to be moving toward expanding Public Policies like Early Childhood education. We see this in other countries around the globe. They are not shrinking but standing it. Im getting more into the consequences of the cuts you are proposing. I want to start by examining your privatization philosophy. The false premise on which it is built in the research. Contrary to your claims the nations Public Education system which 90 of our children attend has witnessed significant progress for all the groups of students over the last 30 years, average mathematic scores on the National Assessment of educational progress have improved for fourthgraders from 14 , eighth graders by 7 . Reading improvements have been more modest, scores improved by 6 and eighthgraders by 3 . Hispanic fourthgraders scores improved by 6 and, eighthgraders by 4 . These are significantly higher than 40 years ago for all racial and ethnic groups. I reflect on that and ask the question where would we be without federal investment . There is no question there is more to do to address the disparities. We face significant challenges for kids that come into the system, education districts where they experience poverty and exposure to violence often resulting in trauma. The solution is not less resources, nor is it more privatization. Let me, if i can, just quote for you from a report from doctor pamela can tour who was a psychiatrist and she cofounded an Educational Organization called turnaround for children which translates the science of learning and development into a problem of she led a Team Commission in new york city by the board of education to assess the impact of the terrorist attacks on the citys Public School children. What did she find . Surprisingly, 68 of the children they observed had experienced trauma to impair their functioning at school. It is from their ongoing experience of growing up in poverty not from what they witnessed, that terrifying september day. In fact the administrations own data has shown privatization let students down. The dc opportunity Scholarship Program, found that vouchers had a statistically significant negative impact on the mathematics achievement of impacted students. More vouchers, lower mass achievement. That is not a loan data point. Previous multi sector studies, no student achievement scores in private schools, by any statistically significant degree and they found this to be the case in indiana and louisiana and other examples which i can make available to you into your staff. The push to privatize Public Education is based on the false premise that it is not supported by data but its consequences would be to undermine the education of our students in nearly every state particularly for vulnerable students in high need regions, and the rural part of our country. You would end career and College Readiness for 560,000 low income middle School Students across 45 states by eliminating a highly competitive Grant Program, 365 million. You would endanger academic tutoring, personal counseling, other programs, for 800,000 students, in sixth grade, by cutting trio programs by 140 million. Trio serves low income, firstgeneration students and students with disabilities helping them to graduate from college. You would endanger Education Access for Children Experiencing Homelessness by eliminating the Homeless Children and youth program, minus 102 million. This funding is desperately needed and the 201617 school year more than 1. 3 million and rolled children had experienced homelessness at some point in the past three years, increase of 7 in 201415. You would endanger youth literacy and potentially increase class size and undermine efforts to support diverse teachers by eliminating the main program. The state grant which we increased the first time in many years and you have taken 2. 1 billion away from that program. And you put information out of the grasp of students by flat funding up our grants, 40 of undergraduate students, 7 Million Students rely on pell grants to afford Higher Education but while pell covered 79 of the average cost of tuition in a for your Public Institution in 1975, it covers only 29 today. Our students cannot afford for us to stand for this. Finally, your budget would risk exacerbating financial challenges of underresourced world districts by converting into block grants. These districts already struggle with lower student population, higher transportation costs and moved to undermine their funding in this way. I say this to you with all sincerity, this is not going to happen. It is not going to happen. I support the recognition of the state grant, career and Technical Education, proposed increase for the state grant. Im disappointeds Adult Education state grants which i plan to ask you about later and requested an increase for student loan servicing, new reforms in fiscal year 2020 for more oversight and be sure that borrowers are getting the help they need, many of these stem from an oversight hearing the subcommittee held last year and speak directly, i need to see how the department implements the new requirements as i review your request for next year. With regard to Charter Schools, there is a place for them. They have a role in our Education System but weve moved in the direction of a parallel Education System. Around issues of accountability and transparency which to this point they have not been forthcoming. I have said time and again Charter Schools ought to be held to the same rigor. We need to know about it and to close, you are clearly again in my view seeking to privatize Public Education. I hope i have been clear that we are not going to do that because doing so ignores the research indicating the gains we have made at the many areas private education shortchanges students, ignores the reason the federal government needs to be involved in education that so powerfully indicated with brown versus board of education and ignores the spirit and values of this country. We need the expanding Public Policies that boost education, not restricting or reducing. I look forward to our discussion today and it is my pleasure to turn to the Ranking Member of the subcommittee. Thank you. This is my favorite time of year because i get to spend so much time with you, we have dinner tonight. It is a vigorous exchange of ideas and more cooperation then we get granted for. Is a pleasure, i have known you for a long time before either of us were in our respective capacities. I believe it to you to describe your public philosophy but there are two things i know about you, your Public Education philosophy, one is you have always been for what is the right job role or place for this particular student to be and i see that in your proposals and youve never been afraid to put a bold it on the table and advance it and i feel a lot of that in this budget. Theres a lot of boldness here some of which i agree with and some of which i dont but that doesnt bother me. I like the idea that you are willing to break the mold and think about this because we have a lot of challenges. Also, you are our chief officer overseeing the most diverse educational system in the world. I think of my own district, i have 5 colleges and universities, everything from great comprehensive state institutions to elite liberal arts institutions, regional facilities, private christian colleges. Like everybody else most of the young people im privileged to represent go to Public Schools, i have private and Religious Schools, home schools and they all do a good job, they all wrestle with the same problems and i have one of the most robust career tech systems throughout oklahoma and in my district and i was pleased with some proposals you made in that regard. We will have great discussion today. I look forward to your testimony and as a former educator, it is important to have access to quality education and it is one of the most important Building Blocks for success and access to quality learning to really impact Lifelong Development and unlocks each individuals potential. Or budget request resizes resources to certain populations of children who need Additional Support including children with special needs and his abilities, education and School Districts whose revenues are impacted by federal prisons within their boundaries. I am a strong supporter of a career and Technical Education and probably home state of oklahoma is leading the way in innovating models for delivering cuttingedge skills that could lead to good paying rewarding careers for students who do not wish to pursue a 4year liberal arts degree. Thank you for your support of these programs and i will call forward to asking you more questions about the substantial increases in your budget that your budget proposes for these programs this year. I want to recognize your proposal to expand pell grants to students enrolled in shortterm programs that offer credential and high demand field. These opportunities offer high employment in a variety of fields needed through my district and others. Interesting how many times when we do member testimony members come here and push the need for career and Technical Education in terms of Job Opportunities and in terms of needed skills. You focused on a key area here, other members of congress believe it is time to make pell grants available to individuals for certificate based programs and i applaud you for putting that on the table for us to consider. Your budget once again proposes to eliminate, consolidate or change over 2 dozen programs. Some of these proposals may make sense in terms of realization or consolidation. I agree with my friend the chairman particularly concerned about the proposal for the successful trio program for competitive grant model throughout my career. Im concerned about a proposal that consolidate several minority serving institutions, these institutions serve distinct populations with different needs. Im not certain such a change makes sense but these disadvantaged minority populations may be overlooked or marginalized. If they are not singled out for special attention. Im interested in hearing your perspective on that. I acknowledge your proposals and address limitations in the student aid program. Establishing federal student aid is a separate organization, an issue not sure we are the right people to consider it here. I support your efforts to streamline a more you. User focused expression. To modernize and improve the student loan infrastructure benefiting 40 million customers. Pardon me while i support block grants and frame School Districts from the bureaucracy involved and administering dozens of federal programs i have some concerns that consolidating some programs like Charter School program could have negative consequence, we hope to benefit by these proposals. There is a risk that some states are welcoming and others are not. I worry about the publicsector taking money to see these innovative things. You probably know more about this than anybody on this panel. Im interested in your perspective. I know you faced a difficult challenge making all the pieces fit into a tight budget. I made this point yesterday. This is necessarily your budget, this is the ombs budget you are tasked to defend. You work for the president of the united states, that is the budget process but you wrestle with a smaller budget than you might have otherwise chosen. I will ask about that and this budget priority, i think that does put you as it did secretary azar in a difficult position, you may have been forced to make cuts you did not advocate but a famous incident of that last year on Special Olympics as i recall. You privately make an argument we might agree with appear but publicly you have got to make the case. I respect that. One of the applications you undertake, great personal sacrifice is not a job you need and i admire you for your commitment to Public Service. Under the leadership of our chairman, strong quality education for students across the country will remain a fundamental priority in the creation of this years labor hhs bill just as it was last year, when i was privileged to be chairman and my friend has always been a great partner in that endeavor, the chair of the committee are Ranking Member. I look forward to working with my friend to craft a budget that balances are many priorities and invest in our countrys people and its future. I look forward to your testimony and i yield back the balance of my time, madame secretary, the chairman. I think my friend the Ranking Member, we will put it together and i would like to turn to the distinguished chair of the full committee for any comments she may have. Good morning and thank you, madame secretary for the exchange of ideas and thank you for holding this hearing. This is the fourth budget request for the department of education under your leadership and it has cuts and outright eliminations. It hurts students and their families. Like every Previous Year we are going to reject this proposal. We would like to believe this proposal empowers states and districts and flexibility, but the numbers dont lie, eliminating 41 programs, cutting Education Funding by 6. 2 billion, the severity of educations mission is to promote by fostering Educational Excellence and ensuring equal access. Secretary devos, your budget is on a different mission, one that chokes accountability to our students and taxpayers. It would take more than my allotted time to read the complete list of the limitations and funding cuts so i will he highlight a few, all of which demonstrate lack of commitment Educational Equity across elementary, secondary and postsecondary education. We should be protecting and building on a 6. 3 billion investment, your Budget Proposal has eliminated this crucial support for students in high poverty schools. You propose eliminating fullservice committee schools, the Thomas Edison Elementary School in portchester, to implemented the fullservice Community School model. The social Services Committee engagement improved Student Learning and empowers communities. I must admit i was another at that time. I had visited the school and it was so exciting to see these Young Students get all that they needed. Many of these parents were working two jobs and to have it all go, for parents to come in was very exciting. I must admit, it was disappointing to me to see this program illuminated. Disappointing because i know your interest in educating all the kid. It is vital for combating inequality. Working families working families count on afterSchool Programs so that they can go to work knowing their child is safe and learning with your budget requests eliminatemi this funding. More than half of americans live in the childcare desert. That includes the one in five College Students who are parents. Oncampus childcare programs help students parents successfully pursue degrees, but you would cut funding to the childcare access means peart and schools programs by nearly 72 . Im trying not to elaborate and getting to the point, but 72 is a lot of parents and children who will not be able to access this opportunity. It will be absurd to champion this budget request for a socalled fiscal responsibility. More than 2 billion in Student Financial aid and grants to institutions would be cut. And instead, going to a border wall. By limiting programs and reducing funds this budget request would bridge the gap. I sincerely hope your response to our questions will address these concerns. I thank you again for appearing. Thank you, madam secretary, for your testimony. The full testimony will be made for the record and ill ask you to take five minutes to summarize so that we can get to everyones questions. After that we will proceed to fiveminute rounds for questions. Madam secretary, please begin. Thank you. Chairwoman delauro, Ranking Member cole and members of the subcommittee, thankco you for te opportunity to testify on the president s fiscal year 2021 budget. While were discussing a budget its important to remember that the federal Government Spending does not determine everything thats important to us, nor is it the only solution when we encounter challenges and opportunities. Instead, we thein people overcoe challenges and seize opportunities. Thats why this departments budget is focused on returning power to the people come to those closest to students and the students themselves. Our budget begins by recognizing that education is a local issue your congress recognized the truth when it created the u. S. Department of education 40 years ago. It promised the move would, quote, not increase the authority of the federal government over education, nor diminish the responsibility for education which is reserved to the states, end quote. This Administration Proposes congress aligned the budget with that 40yearold promise. Our budget would take a big step toward rightsizing the federal role in education so that families, teachers and state and local leaders are free to do whats right for students. The budget would expand education freedom for students so they can prepare for successful careers. And it would refocus our approach to Higher Education so that students aredu at the centr of everything we do. First, lets consider recent history. Over 40 years federal taxpayers have spent more than 1 trillion trying to fix k12 education. Each Year Congress grew the nearly 7 billion in 1980, to more than 41 billion in 2020, for k12 education alone. But what have we bought with all that spending . Just open up the latest nations report card to see the sad results. No real improvement in student achievement in decades. So instead of holding fast to what we know does not work, let me suggest we find the courage to do something bold and begin a new era of student growth and achievement here the everyry Student Succeeds act gives us good insights into where we should go. Essa became law because many on both sides of the aisle realize overreach had failed. So youov move to restore the proper role of an education. The bipartisan k12 law affords states and communities more flexibility to address local challenges. This Administration Proposes congress complement its work on essa and make the budget match the law. States must work with local communities and post to develop comprehensive plans that best meet the needs of the students. And so states should be able to target their federal taxpayer dollars accordingly. To that end we propose putting an end to education earmarks by consolidating nearly all federal k12 programs into one single block grant. Overall, americans spent about 860 billion on k12 education every year. Last Year Congress appropriated about 24 billion of that to the programs and are proposed block grant, or roughly 2. 5 of total education spending. And yet each year teachers and School Leaders spent more than 2 million hours complying with federal reporting and recordkeeping requirements for the small slice of the pie. 2 million hours, more than 83,000 days. More than 225 years. Thats time to cut it and focus on helping students learn and grow. Teachers, administrators and state leaders need to be free to focus on people, not paperwork. Results, not regulations. Different states will invest their share of the block grant differently and thats okay. In fact, thats what we hope they do. They can better figure out what their students need because they know their students. Every student is unique and each one of them learn differently. Every child needs the freedom to learn in places and ways that work for them. Thats what the president s 2021 budget also renews its call for historic investment in americas students, education freedom scholarships here our proposal is a dollar for dollar federal income tax credit for voluntary contributions to statebased nonprofit organizations that provide scholarships directly to students. I like to picture kids with backpacks representing funding for the education following them wherever they go to learn. The budget also request 100 million increase in supporting children with disabilities, amounting to a total of 14 billion for i. D. E. A. Programs. Theres also a request for dramatic expansion of career and Technical Education programs. At an overall increase of nearly 900 million, its the largest investment in cte ever. It includes a total of 2 billion for perkins state grants which is an increase of nearly 800 million. Additionally we additionally we are requesting 150 million, an increase of more than 135 million to fund s. T. E. M. Activities led by hbcus under theha minority serving institutions located in opportunity zones. This administration wants every student in america to have more education options that focus on preparing them for successful careers. That goes handinhand with our groundbreaking initiative that federal student aid. Consider that fs eight essentially a 1. 5 trillion bank trillion dollars bank that is dramatically outgrown its governance structure. We propose evaluating a new governance structure and with fsa should be a standalone entity. In the meantime were continuing to build on our important reforms that establish one platform, what operating system, one website. And importantly on providing customers come students and theirr families, with a seamless student loan experience. In thean end our budget is about one thing, putting students and their needs above all else. Its a budget that recognizes that no student and no state, no teacher and no town are the same. States need to be free to address the particular problems andth possibilities of their people, and students of all ages need the freedom to find their fit. This budget proposes that Congress Give it to them. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. And happy to respond to your questions. Thank you very much, madam secretary. Im sorry i was remiss in recognizing larry king whose Budget Services director at department of fayette, so you to you as well. Madam secretary, to justify your cut you repeatedly claim additional funding to our Public Schools does not improve Student Outcomes. Ud i claim a claim to have no basis in reality. Education spending, student accounts by northwestern economist found statistically significant positive results for students in 12 out of 13 study which l is why dr. Jackson concludes by large theet questin of whether Money Matters is settled. Ly i dont understand, why do you continuesc to claim that Additional Resources to Public Schools do not improve Student Outcomes when the empirical evidence tells us the exact opposite . Im just going i admittedly have not read through all of them. I have read some of them, but this is by education experts, people who understand the science of learning and development, and how it improves. The data is overwhelming. I ask you again, how can you continue to make these claims that Student Outcomes do not improve with empirical evidence tells us the opposite . Chairwoman, let me just refer back to the nape results. But before i do that i just, theres a couple of i things you said in your opening comments that i need to comment too. First of all, im not out to privatize anything about education. Im out to make sure every students education is personalized, individualized for them, that they find the right fitt to unlock the potential. So lets talk about personalization, not about privatization. Thats not the issue. Thats not the goal. And we have spent over 1 trillion at the federal level to close the achievement gap and the last 40 years. That achievement gap has not closed one little bit. In fact, for many poor students its only grown wider. You look at the statebystate results, you look at the overall results, and they are dismal. Madam secretary cannot read or do math at their grade level. I i would want to know where those schools are, what the environmental circumstances are, what kind of resources are going into those training for teachers improving the lives of the families who live there, and making sure that the youngsters have that experience and the train people that they need, if you deny the resources to the most come to the schools that need the help most, yes, you will fill. Im going to tell you speeders actually if you free up the resources for people at the most local level, you see results. You can seat in florida. You can see it in mississippi where they focus solely on approving speeders including the district of columbia with a data that this administration has indicated this is not the case. Wevee got scores higher in 2019 for most racial ethnic groups in both subjects, and a both grades compared to the early 1990s. This is the nape data come scores in math and reading are significantly higherr than they were 40 years ago. For all racial and ethnic groups. So the fundamental principle and the underlying philosophy on which you move forward and cutting all these programs and move to 5 billion for vouchers lies in the face of the progress thats made. Let us Work Together to understand the statistics, realize where we are, know that there is a difference, and weve got some wood were to go on an achievement gap. What lets not denigrate a Public School system that shows 90 of our kids and that is making gains. Let us continue to those gains, and, quite frankly, the cuts that you proposed is doublespeak. It is doublespeak. Im just going back to your words that are the nape study. Youve got, and as i said, youve got more studies released in 2019 reached the same conclusion, including a study showing how extra money protects at a texas girl had a particularly strong impact on low income and spanish steps. Im going to share the studies with your cell phone with the staff with the members of the subcommittee to take a look to see if, in fact, the data belies the direction that you are taking Public Education in this country. And my time has run out. Let me yield to my colleague. Thank you very much, madam chairman. As a set and my comments, madam secretary, imm really excited about your health grant proposal and additional investment in career and Technical Education. So ive got a couple of questions along those lines. Provide credentials in demand fields. Im interested to know what how would you define in demand . What would actually be covered . Would that work . Would all the programs that have lets say a duly recognized state, would that be covered . Or do you have some sort of selectivity in mind . Well, our proposal really seeks to work with congress to determine what the definition around those programs and the extent to which they would be a part of a shortterm pel program. I know it various by region. And i think it would behoove all of us to work closely with regions and states and to look at what those opportunities are. But we would look forward to working with congress to determine that and to really address these opportunities for students. I actually find certainly in my state honest quite often young people are not so young. Obviously you can be any age coming for additional technical training. They literally end up with jobs faster. Usually than somebody coming out of a fouryear education. And its quite often a very highpaying job. Believe me. When you need a plumber, you really need a plumber. You cant wait around. And so, again, i applaud that. We get a lot of questions about this. A lot of student who is go to facilities are comparatively low income and frankly just the cost of college or the idea of assuming the debt thats often associated with that to them doesnt make sense. This really does. Im glad you put it on the table. Want to go to an area where frankly we dont agree. Thats on the trio and gear up proposals that you have. Ive got a lot of trio students in my state. Weve historically been one of those states that really benefitted from that. We really benefitted from gear up. Frankly i never met a single student or instructor in these programs that didnt think they were worthwhile. I look at trio, for instance. Since its inception its produced over 5 million college graduates. I think a lot of those young people quite honestly would not have had the opportunity or the support structure to succeed in College Without trooeio or the preparation thats necessary. A lot of family where is nobodys gone to college before really are not in a very good position sometimes to counsel their own kids or prepare them. And you dont want to send them to college and not have them successful. I want them to get that degree. Not walk out of there with a few hours and thousands of dollars of debt. These programs seem to do that. And i used to have this problem with the last administration which i thought underinvested in these programs even though historically we were always doing race to the top or some new deal when we had a couple of programs here that i think have demonstrated their utility over time again and again. So explain to me again the advantages you would see in the consolidation and the movement to formula grants composed to competitive grants in this area. Thank you. And i totally agree that these programs are beneficial and effective for many. Our proposal does seek to essentially move gear up into the trio program. And block to the states. The reality is that most of the awardees for the trio program are consistent year after year after year. And its very difficult for any new program to break into it. We think that by allowing that would tell me we should put more money in trio. And thats certainly your prerogative, but i think coupled with our proposal to block grant the elementary and secondary Education Funding of the 29 different programs and again provide a lot more flexibility at the state and local level, the answer for one district might look quite different than an answer for the other district. Fair point. I think coupled, it would be a really powerful ive only got about 30 seconds left, so let me just quickly ask one other thing. I know youve historically been a great champion of Charter Schools. And i do worry not everybody shares that point of view. You know, i think if you block grant these to states, a lot of the money thats been set aside specifically for charters honestly is apt to be diverted into the public system particularly even though through the normal, you know, k through 12 system. Particularly when, you know, the overall amount of money is coming down. Lets concentrate within the k12 system. These are more experimental or these are a little bit more outside the quote, unquote stream. Ive gone over my time. Do you have that . There are a hundred im sorry. A million families on the wait list for chafrtrter schools across the country. They i actually view our consolidation and block grant proposal as one that is additive and positive for charters. I talked with a number of governors about the block grant concept and theyre very excited about it. In states where they embrace this, theres going to be dramatic expansion. Im over my time, so i dont want the chairwoman to have to interrupt me. Ill interrupt myself. Thank you and id like to discuss this. Thank you for the indulgence. Congresswoman lee. Thank you very much. Thank you, madam secretary. Let me go right to this because theres still and this is increasing in terms of systemic injustices towards our black and latino students. First of all, you eliminated the 2014 School Discipline guidance to ensure students students. Let me ask you about the proposal now, this is a double whammy. To combine the preschool children who received out of School Suspension with those who received more than one out of School Suspension. And your proposal to eliminate preschool data by race and ethnicity. Without this distinction, its going to be very difficult to understand whether and what extent this trend persists. The ability to track this data is critical. While black students now, you got to hear this and understand this. Black students make up 20 of preschool children. These are babies. Right . They represent 50 of suspended, again, babies. Preschoolers. Dont forget also that the education department, your own data in 2013 and 2014 found that black preschoolers, again babies, are three times or more likely to receive an out of School Suspension than their white counterparts. In the last two years the subcommittee receive language detailing School Discipline in all preschooling and k through 12 classrooms and to also include it in your 2020 budget justification. Here you are again without having submitted this data. We went through this last year. Although your budget request says you will brief us on your plan with a horrendous plan to significantly alter this Data Collection. So why do you plan to change the Data Collection so that it really and thats what its going to do. Its going to mask the trends for out of School Suspensions of preschoolers. And we should have solved this. And we shouldnt have to ask you once again for this data. So thats my first question. What in the world is going on and taking so long for us to get this report that we required you to submit for the last few years . And also, do you believe that black students are punished and suspended at greater rates than their white peers . Yes or no . The data shows this. And these are babies. Sec. Devos maam, i agree and love children as you do and want to ensure that all children have the opportunity to get a great education. We have been focused on answering and responding to all of your requests. But you havent done that. We will check on that specifically you said that last year, madam secretary. And what i know and what i am committed to is ensuring that all kids have an opportunity i understand that. Madam secretary, you tell us that every year. But what about black and latino kids . Sec. Devos that is exactly my point no. Madam secretary, youre trying to mask this by saying youre not going to collect the data by race. How in the world can you say that you care about black and latino kids . The other report we asked you we asked you a detail on recommendations with regard to how to address adverse impacts of resegregation including designating title six school monitors to ensure every student has the opportunity for an equal education. Again, you said you were aware of this report, youd get it back to us as soon as possible. We still dont have this report. Weve tried and tried over and over again, madam secretary, to get these reports from your office. Theyre written into the bills. Theyre required. And youre just thumbing your finger at us. Sec. Devos that is not the case. Well, it is the case. Sec. Devos we are responsive. We have continued to be responsive madam secretary, on black and latino preschoolers, you have not been responsive. These are children who dont even get a head start. Because theyre kicked out of school. Before theyre even in kindergarten. Dont you think thats important . Sec. Devos i think each one of them is important. And i care about each one of their futures. Thats why im suggesting we do things very differently than what weve been doing. This committee has asked you for this data. And instead of providing the data and reports youre now trying to mask it by saying youre not going to use race and ethnicity to even present the facts. So how can you sit there and say that . We ask you over and over and over again every year. Sec. Devos i am committed to each of those children as you are. But youre not showing that. Could you submit wait a minute. Let me ask you about sec. Devos a report does not solve a childs problem. Wait a minute. Were asking madam secretary, were asking you for the report. We need the data to understand it. I would think youd want the data to understand it also. Thats all were asking for. This is basic. So why wouldnt we get the information that this committee has asked you for for two years about preschoolers being disproportionately suspended from preschool. These babies, these black babies. Sec. Devos lets talk about the lack of achievement when are we going to get the report . Sec. Devos lets talk about the lack of achievement and opportunity for so we cant ask you for these, madam secretary . I want to know madam secretary, are you just saying forget the reports . Sec. Devos no, maam, im not. Then when do we get it . Sec. Devos i will check on when that report will be available. Both reports on School Resegregation and the suspension of black and latino kids. You told us this last year. A year has gone by. And its outrageous. Sec. Devos thank you very much. Thank you, madam secretary. Whats outrageous is that 25 of our children, of our eighth graders cant read at grade level passage. Thats outrageous. And youre right, money doesnt solve this problem. You know, i had the privilege of being invited to the 15th anniversary of the osp program at department of education where we met the parents. All they wanted was a better life, a better schooling for their children. Madam secretary, you know that 90 of those students who took advantage of that program are black students. The vast majority of the rest are latino students. So to somehow suggest that you as an advocate for programs like that dont care about black and latino just doesnt jive with the data. Lets talk about the data. Significant progress on that, really . U. S. News and report about the last scores say across the board scores drop in math and reading for u. S. Students. It dropped. It didnt go up. There was no significant improvement. Sec. Devos uhhuh. And with regards to the disparity, its pretty clear the disparity has existed between the highest and lowest performers for 30 years consistently. Some people would suggest that repeating the same thing youre doing that doesnt work is insanity. Thats exactly what were doing in the united states. So im going to congratulate you on the suggestion for the education freedom scholarships. Now, i know its a bold idea to somehow believe should put parents in charge of the childrens education or maybe making their choice, because of course god knows we know better. Somehow some bureaucrat knows better, some academic sitting in some ivory tower knows better than the mother. Some of the mothers i saw at the department of education celebration who really knew what was better for their children and was not to be sent to the same poorly performing Public Schools because there was no competition. Let me tell you whats interesting in the nape scores. There was one jurisdiction in the country where actually the students performed better. Three out of four of the measurements. Washington, d. C. Because for 13 years before that test was taken washington, d. C. Instituted competition for a failing Public School system. And the academics go, oh, no, were going to compare the scores of the people, didnt go to the voucher schools, no, it didnt. Competition works and the education freedom scholarships will induce competition. Does a dollar for those scholarships come from the department of education budget . I think i saw it was the department of treasury budget . For education freedom scholarship, part of the department of this wouldnt take a dollar from Public Schools . Sec. Devos no it would be voluntary contributions. What could be the possible opposition to voluntary contributions to a program, and i think i have the facts right, about threequarters of parents favor that idea . The idea of actually giving choice and fact that this, i see 68 of africanamerican, 82 of latino parents, specifically about the program, 83 of African American parents want that choice. Why in the world would we deny it . Would you come up with any other reason other than teacher opposition . Sec. Devos i see no reason to deny those kids that opportunity. Madam secretary, thank you for putting up with what you do, with what you put up with, to stand up for the idea that every child and as an educator for 30 years before i came to congress, for the idea that every child in america and every parent in america deserve a choice of where to get sent to school. If they are unfortunate enough to live in an area or School District where their school is just plain lousy, they that should have the opportunity to go to a Charter School, or get a voucher, especially under the education freedom these are voluntary contributions to get a voucher to help those children go to a better school. I just dont understand the argument against it. I never will. Its about time we get raw politics out of education because its standing in the way. Because, you know, if you look at the statistics, yeah, there was improvement in the nape. We went from 31st to 30st in the last nape. In the world. It wasnt math or reading, i guess it was science. Thats pathetic. In the 21st century, we cant afford to be anything but first in the world, and i just want to congregatelate you on what you do to see to it that that could happen. I yield back. Sec. Devos thank you, congressman. Congressman. Thank you, very much, chair and madam secretary. Easiest question, we have a 5letter last name is it devos . Sec. Devos devos. My name too. Secretary devos, thank you. I want to thank you for not having cuts to special education and not cutting the Special Olympics. The fourth time is a charm. Thank you. Happy Public Schools week. Im sure youre advocating around the country for schools this week. Thank you. We had a strong bipartisan resolution with 90 people including our Ranking Member. Proud of the Public Schools we have in this country. I want to pick up on where our Ranking Member started talking about Charter Schools. This is where we dont have as good information. First of all on academic performance we know on Charter Schools about 1 out of 6 does better. About half about the same. But 2 out of 6 perform worse. I think theres something even worse. You mentioned what we bought with the spending. When you look at Charter Schools there was a report that said one thousand Program Grants were given out by the department of education given to schools that never opened or later schools because of poor performance or fraud. Its actually worse than that, 2,127 schools, that actually never opened or failed. Thats 40. 5 failure rate on Charter Schools. Thats an f grade when youre below 60 . And youre advocating for doing more fs or bs and maybe a few cs. But fs dont seem to be the grade we want to advocate for. Also there was a school, the idea charter chain, that have been awarded about 200 million in federal funds. Over the years they got a 67 million grant, another they got a luxury box. They purchased a property for one of their Board Members for 1. 7 million. I dont think eye School Board Member would sell their property. Another board member got the commission on that on over millions of dollars. Only after public scrutiny about they back off a plan to lease a private jet for 2 million a year for six years. My question on this terrible sfalure, youre advocating for, yes or no, do you think Charter Schools who receive federal funding should be allowed to purchase jets . Sec. Devos its not a yes or no question. Actually it really is. Its the definition of a yes or no question. Sec. Devos i have a few things to say about the things that you said. Can you answer my question please . Sec. Devos i have a few things to say about what you said about Charter Schools. Reclaiming my time. Reclaiming my time. Sec. Devos the report that you referenced has been totally debunked as propaganda. Fewer than 2 of the schools didnt open. I give you the courtesy of making sure i could may say your name correct. Im asking you a question with a yes or no answer. If the secretary of education cant answer a yes or no i dont know why you should be secretary. Do you think federal funding should go to a school that uses it to buy a jet . Sec. Devos its a hypothetical question, obviously a no answer. Its an actual question. Sec. Devos there is no funding going to Charter Schools that would even address Something Like that. Another yes or no, they should be able to put sec. Devos Charter Schools are Public Schools. Reclaiming my time. Recliming my time. Sec. Devos choosing them and there are a million families on the wait list to go to Charter Schools. Just talking over someone isnt an answer, just so you know. Yes or no often is when its asked in a yesorno format. We also know on the same group gave such incomplete information over three years, didnt report accurate, no information on performance data, would you think would you give your staff a paycheck if they didnt perform 84 of their tasks, yes or no . Sec. Devos of course not. But everything youre citing is debunked, ridiculous. So i dont accept the premise of your question. Its actually not. Let me ask you this. Do you think its odd when people think your family runs a charter, correct . Thats a yes or no . Sec. Devos no. Your husband doesnt have a Charter Program . Sec. Devos he founded a Charter School. So when people think you may have a conflict of interest because of that sec. Devos absolutely not. Ill let you not do a yes or no, however you want. Sec. Devos i will respond in that my husband founded a Charter School which is Meeting Needs of students all over west michigan, and he is on the board, but he does not run the school. It is a organized as an notforprofit Charter School, and it is a Public School serving all comers. I think the fact that you couldnt answer yes or no when you look at this terrible rating, this is why people have a worry there could be a conflict. Sec. Devos youre wrong about Charter Schools. But 40 are closing down that youre giving grants to . Sec. Devos that is not true. It was nothing but propaganda by an individual who has an in for Charter Schools. What percent are failing . Sec. Devos i dont have a state youre the secretary of education and dont have this . You know this report is wrong . Sec. Devos Charter Schools are chartered by states, not by the federal government. You know that that number is not right but dont have a correct number . Sec. Devos what i know is parents and families are choosing to send their children to Charter Schools. Thats a yes or no, you dont know the answer . Sec. Devos parents and children are going by choice, and there are a million more families on Charter School waitlists. Thank you, mada thank you, madam chair. Am veryt to say that i troubled by the tone of this hearing and if you like our secretary is being badgered and i would ask the chair to consider that as we move forward. Because i feel its very unfortunate that weve come here to help meet the needs of our children, the nations children, and i think the tone of this unit is very disappointing in that regard i also want to say as the person whos familiar with the secretarys record, i dont know of a Single Person who has been more engaged in policies to help minority students across the country than this secretary from all of her work throughout her career. Im very i disappointed right n, but it do want to talk about some of the priorities, and also as someone who is been a former school administrator, a Charter School administrator and someone who chairedth a state education budget, i will say that the focus that you have on helping people closest to the student and who caree most for the student, making decisions to me is right direction. I want to compliment you on that. I know there are a lot of issues we can discussju but i just want to say that at the outset. Theres a few specific things ii wanted to ask you to talk about. First, the Second Chance pell. One of thein high points of Congress Working with the administration has been to look at Prison Reform and to help those have been in prison come back into the community and contribute. And i wonder if you could talk all a bit about your plans Going Forward . I know theres interest in community colleges. My area in participating in this, but if you could talk briefly about the Second Chance pell program. Thank you, congressman at a a think this is an area where there is actually broad spread support, and a lot of great evidence. I that opportunity to visit threee different prisons and se students that have i visited Tulsa Community college in prison, in oklahoma last summer. And it was just thrilled to see all of these mostly young men graduating with associates degrees, with Certificate Program recognition. Some of them completing their high school requirements. But it was a thrill to be there, and i think theres so much promise with making a Second Chance pell program a o permanet one that is going to provide hope and opportunity for returning incarcerate individuals and give them a really hopeful future. Wonderful. Thank you. I also wanted to talk with you,e you mentioned preparing students for successful careers and they know the federal work study proposals that you have really are aimed at inviting the private sector participate more. I understand theres 190 institutions that would be invited to participate in a pilot program. I knowed and when wet my areas n Midmichigan College is interested in participating in that. Could you comment on that . We think theres a real opportunity to help students get much more relevant Work Experience while they are attending college, and in a federal work study program. Instead of working in the college cafeteria, if they are doing student teaching perhaps or clinicals in a Health Profession or perhaps its in a business that has a relevance with the program they are taking in their college. We think extending this opportunity and helping students get really relevant almost apprenticeship like experience while they are in school studying is an up or step in the direction of helping students succeed. Thank you. Also, i think as parents everyone is concerned about the higher cost of college education. N. When you see that that the students are taking out and then just the burdenn that places on them in the future. Can you comment about just what the administration can do to help alleviate the high cost of education but also Student Loan Debt . This is a huge issue and im not sure i got enough time to answer it fully, but ill start with a couple of things. We have taken important steps administratively to add a lot of light to what students can access through the college scorecard. And now students can go and go to come look up an institution and then go down to the field of study or program, find out what its going to cost to attend the program and complete, and then importantly with the first your earning potential is after that. They can compare between schools. They can compare programs within schools. And this is going to, i think, help them be more discerning prospectively. I also think its going to help schools look more critically at what they are offering and what the realities are of what they are offering. Perhaps its going to make some changes, or prompt some changes at higher edst institutions, and that is one way bringing light to what has been a very murky kind of reality. And so thats one way we have taken a step. Another way we have put the fast form on the app. More and more information for students to model what their debt and what their Student Loan Debt would mean, and how they could pay off and have realtime information for that right on their app. Were going to be continue to add more and more to give them more tools for financial literacy. Thanks you. And thank you, madam chair. Let meif just say if i can he the indulgence of the subcommittee. I would like to address congress moolenaar, your comments, if i can. I have a great deal of respect for you and your work on this subcommittee. I think what you are hearing is a level of frustration about very, very important issues, and the two issues that have been addressed in a strong way, when we cannot get reports. We are an appropriations committee. We put in a bill that required the department of education to get us reports on the data with regards to babies being expelled from preschool. We dont have that report, nor was there an answer as to when we would get that report. Thats a level of frustration. You would experience that as well. Further, with regard to Charter Schools, may i add that we held a hearing last year on Charter Schools. The oig raised issues that we need to examine, colluding findings that state mismanaged Charter School closures, and that the department failed to provide guidance or oversight on the issue. We are the appropriations committee. We have appropriated serious money, more than 400 400 miln last year alone. We need to contact oversight, and so theres a level of frustration. And i might add, when you can say about charterod schools that god is in his heaven, all is right with the world, and you cannot do a serious evaluation of which ones work and which ones dont work, that means that the department is not doing the evaluation that we need to hear about. So wherein lies the frustration, congressman . Sure, please. I completely respect that, and what i heard the secretary said is that she will find out information on the report and get back to the committee. I think any secretary deserts of the courtesy to get and on the Charter School, i would just ask the chair to consider, Charter Schools, many have different missions. Some Charter Schools out the mission of educating adjudicated youth. And so the idea that were going to start comparing, you know, High Standard education with educating adjudicated youth and some out a valley what than the same, thats a very different mission. And so i think this committee would be welli served to kind f look at the unique missions of Charter Schools, and where there are inappropriate speedy i would also say to you that not our information, at the office of Inspector General at the public hearing that we had in this room last year claimed that there were serious difficulties. We have to look at that. We have to ask the department about that. So again, speedy may i, madam chair . Short. Were obviously a little off topic here and thank you for the indulgence. Look, i have to speak up in defense of i think mr. Moolenaar was right in what he said. I have zeroo problem because i quit my friend, if this report we ought to get it. Nothing wrong with that. We had some tough questions about Charter Schools. Nothing well with that. But anybodyar who thinks the toe was appropriate towards the secretary, it was not. And that, you know, we have a lot of people in four years that i came, when i was chairman of this committee i didnt agree with. The other administration. I dont think it ever dress anybody the way i heard the secretary address, ever. I dont think any of my members ever did. That ion think its a legitimate point and thats what i think well as i save it as a result of the frustration that people are feeling here, and, quite frankly, to my friend, there have been members of your side of the aisle who have addressed folks with come before this committee with a very big lack of respect. That doesnt say its right, but what we want to do is get through the frustration. We need to get answers. We are an appropriations committee. This is a serious amount of money that were looking at, and our deep concerns as to the direction of Public Education in this country. As you know speed is all i will say is i agree, there are deep concerns. I respect the frustrations. They are real. Thats part of legislation but slow bit different in terms of how we treat our witnesses. Thank you very much but i appreciate it. And it applies to both sides of the aisle as you know. It certainly does on occasion. Thank you, madam chair. And thank you,to madam secretar, for being here. I promise to apply a combination ofiv midwest nice and a a looky former Investigative Journalism background,st but anyway. Interesting conversation. Thank you again for beingyo her. We are in the middle of a Public Health crisis, not just the coronavirus but youth vaping. My folks in education back home asked i call the ecigs. They think they can make it sounds nicer than it is so i will say ecigarettes. But the numbers that were from the centers for Disease Control and prevention show that back in 2011 we had 1. 5, 1. 5 of our High Schoolers were doing ecigarettes. Now just last year 2019 were at 27. 5 . About onethird of a High School Student are now a doing this. Just a lonely. Thats why call it an epidemic. At junior high, middle school, we are now at about 10. 5 of our middle schoolers. I just couldnt believe these numbers when i learned these. We did a series of roundtable discussions in my Congressional District in downstate illinois, and the one that really just a largely was that we had a School Resource officer said that it was thirdgraders that were doing this, thirdgraders. This is easy to hide. They can put it in watches. They can put in clothing. They can dog. It on the sake jup drive. Eg thatsoing this and why we wrote legislation out of my office called the resources to prevent youth vaping. It is part of the bill that we package a bill that we will be voting on on the floor tomorrow. So what i wanted to ask you, i promised id bring it is totally department. Wondering if the department of education is coordinating with the center for Disease Control and prevention to make sure that we had information that we can get up tore our parents, make se we have resources that the teachers know about, that the School Nurses know about, just wondering if theres any kindkif coordination going on withen yor department and the centers for Disease Control and prevention . Thanks congresswoman for the congress. For the question. I know theyre been participation and task forces. I be happy to check on the extent to which of those happening, and get back with you on that. If you could work with our office and make sure we are aware of this. I thinknt its really just a commitment on your part. We were just with secretary azor yesterday, but i think working together would just be critical to help address this. Again this this is a public heh epidemic that is impacting our students, our children pics i think that degree. Switching gears. The other issue i would like lois frankel saying im guessing going as something that element because i stay pretty focus on own Congressional District. Really, really severe Teacher Shortage thats happening all over the country. In thet Congressional District thate i represent we are 14 counties and wevet seen the Teacher Shortage problem actually increase over the last year. Th actually increase by aboutso 20 that we are seeing now. In 2019 there were 195 teacher vacancies in these 14 counties that i represent. Now there are 235. Last yeart over the so this problemer is getting worse, not better. I know in the president s budget just a few things i want to point out foror the record that are concerning to me. The Public Service loan forgiveness fund has a proposed cut of 50 million. Teacher Quality Partnership Grant Program has a cut proposed cut of 50 million. The funding of the supporting effective education develop grant a proposed cut of 80 notingse that. Supporting effective instruction state grants cutio f 2. 1 billion. Can i interject . Because the number of the programs that youin cite are actually the ones that we have proposed to include in the block grant, and would actually be very appropriate in your case and in your district if theres a drastic shortage. The district could, the district could target more of those resources and have the flexibility to use more of them for programs that would address the Teacher Shortage issue, teacher retention, teacher development, and, in fact, give lot more flexibility than the current scenario. Talk me through then if you could in the 17 seconds we have through about how specifically youve got the block grant proposal. This is a mostly a rural distrit i represent, 7000 square miles, again a lot of smaller schools. How will these block grants help specifically recruit, retain and fill all of these vacancies in a very, very rural Congressional District . What it would do is allow for the districts to prioritize what portions of these 29 different programs would be most effective and most important for the needs in their district, to meet the needs a of the most disadvantagd students. And it would allow them again to personalize and prioritize where those needs lie, or specifically than the approach of having 29 different programs, all t with their own rules, all of their own regulations. These would be block granted to the state, and the 90 of them would go out directly to the districts under the title one account of italy and formulation. So the accountability provision provisions, but much more flexibility for every district to be able to target the resources where they need the most. Ill yield back the time that i dont have left. Thank you. [laughing] thanked the gentlelady. Congresswoman, ms. Herrerabeutler. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, madam secretary, were being here. The first thing i wanted to mention, and we talked this a little bit. Have a few questions im going to try to bang through them. The practice of seclusion and restraint, we talk about this before, of special ed students. I thinkin is extremely detrimenl to these young people. The stories ively heard are horrific. What is the administration doing to stop the practice and assure all students are true with respect . As we talked about, we have an initiative going proactively through all 12 of our Regional Office for civil rights offices to bring light to the subject, to ensure that schools and districts and states know what their responsibilities are, what the law is, and to really make sure that they are doing right on behalf of kids. And so this was a Prospective Initiative taking conducting audits and also conducting a lot of proactive informational sessions to ensure that s schoos know what they should be doing, or not doing. And some of it is as i hear is a lack of reporting is her in Enforcement Mechanisms . Say he would been doing education and the should, a lot of them should know by now what the rules are around this. What type of Enforcement Mechanisms to have, or do not have any . What should we be doing to make sure schools arear adhering . Where there are infringements on students rights, and request for investigation, we are doing, investigating. Think thats where the important piece comes on the followup. But we think and we hope that, again proactively, taking this initiative and bringing more light to the subject is going to bring about laudable results in terms of reporting and in terms of actual activity and action. Thank you. One of the things i hear a lot about from educators at home in southwest washington is lack of resources to address Mental Health needs. This is probably the top issue i hear about. Its actually more i hear about the mental and Emotional Health of the students more than i hear about math achievement, reading achievement. Its ground zero for this education a doing everything but these kids are coming in with a whole set of challenges that generations before them seem to have navigator or navigator carefully. Who knows . Were trying to figure where they are now but a lot of them are in real distress. What is or can the department do to help this is not anybodys scope. In our scope of practice but this is the route of with the kids are at right now. A couple things i would say. First of all i think our proposal to block grant to the states and then ultimately the local districts, all of these different programmatic funds would allow each district to address this issue in the way that they prioritize. And if this is indeed the most important issue for the most vulnerable students, that would allow them the flexibility to tap into more t of those come higher percentage of those t resources that otherwise toul te formula or through the programmatic approach. So there would be able to may be higher like an in school Mental Health counselor, for example . If thats what ive heard request for that or sros and some of our funds are flexible and some are not. Ory if they using money for ths they cant use it for this is whats the feedback. Thats why think the block Grant Program is really sort of transformative in that way because it would allow for all of the uses of those programs, but for them to prioritize the dollars in in a way thats goio really meet the needs of the most disadvantaged kids indm thr district. allow those closest to the students target resources in the ways that are going to be most meaningful for the kids they seek to serve. With my last 20 seconds, im a big supporter of the Running Start Program and like to see the Department Support them. In addition, i just wanted to say thank you for the increase in focus on career in Technical Education. We should not sell students down the river that you have to go to a fouryear liberal arts school and thats what success is. Because we all know, we live all in life, thats not the only definition of success. I know people who are happy and fulfilled, with good Wage Benefits and provide for their families on a type of education track and thank you for the emphasis on that. The president and myself and this administration are committed to advancing that and supporting multiple pathways for adult success. Thank you. Yield back. Congresswoman clark. Thank you, madam chair and thank you secretary devos for being with us today. I want to go back to a topic explored by my colleague congresswoman lee. Do you think that the disparate in discipline for preschoolers of color could indicate a racial bias . I suppose it certainly could. And again, i think the bigger issue here is that we make sure that every child has the opportunity to pursue an education that is going to unlock and unleash their personal and fullest potential. Okay. Isnt it, however, the official policy now of the department of education that the cause of these disparate rates of discipline that we see with students of color is explained by the fact that these children are just inherently predisposed to misbehave and disrupt the classroom more than white children . Isnt that your policy . No. No, its not. That is the conclusion of the research you cited in your School Safety report of 2019, congress specifically asked you to strike all references to this report, which interestingly, appeared in the journal of criminal justice. Your official response within this budget is that you stand by this report and its conclusions. Isnt that right . Congresswoman, do you have a question about the budget . Because were here to talk about the budget. You said in your fy21 budget, you responded that quote, the department of education stands by this report that says children of color are just more inherently inclined to misbehave and that explains the disparate rates of discipline. I dont know where that would have fallen in our budget narrative. We will get the exact section its right in your budget. I dont see any other way to interpret this as your new policy because you went on and eliminated the Data Collection that could help us solve this problem because you dont see a problem because you have adopted as the policy that this is just a racebased problem, that these in fact, congresswoman, the crdc question collection the Data Collection questions are open for Public Comment now, they have not been concluded and this is what you have proposed. You no longer collect if you have input, we would be very happy to take that. We certainly would like you to go ahead, undo what you put in your budget, strike this racist research, make sure its Crystal Clear that you do not buy into this theory that children of color of discipline because of who they are and that they come to school with disruptive tendencies, that is what you put in your official report, in your budget you say you stand by it. Lets move on, i want to give you a chance to correct the record because i think weve had some testy exchanges in the past and in 2018 you agreed that private and Religious Schools receiving federal funding would have to have nondiscrimination policies. But i think i brow beat you into that answer. Is there any requirement that private and Religious Schools must have nondiscrimination policies under your efs Voucher Program . The education freedom Scholarship Program, first of all, is a tax credit. They are not is there any nondiscrimination, i did not see it in your Budget Proposal. And the reality is that every student that would take advantage of an education freedom scholarship would be protected, their civil rights are protected and that is true of students no matter where they are and whatever school. Many correct you do not have the nondiscrimination in the bth proposal. The Budget Proposal is part of treasurys budget and you agree it would, but its not there. In september you visited a Religious School in harrisburg that as a private religious institution is certainly allowed to do what they do. They have policies that transgender children can be expelled or denied admission based on that status. They also have different tuition rates depending on the religion of the children. My question to you is, if pennsylvania adopted your Scholarship Program, your Voucher Program, would this school be eligible for federal funding with these policies in place . If i need to correct you on the nature of the education freedom scholarship proposal. It is a federal tax credit that would be the recipient of can i finish . Can i finish . Were out of time so i just want to be clear and i want to make sure that you have full understanding of what the proposal is. I understand, federal tax credit are federal funding. No, they arent. Theyre voluntary contributions in advance of paying your. 501 c3 charitable organizations were out of time and ill leave you with this, you said in your testimony you wanted to expand educational freedom for students. I certainly hope that making these inherently discriminatory policies part of the department of education is not what you meant by that statement. We dont discriminate against anyone at any time. Congresswoman frankel. Im going to followup. Thank you for being here. Appreciate it. I want to follow up on these voucher questions. So because i was trying to calculate in my head because for me, i think this is a program for wealthy people to get Free Private School because my understanding of a tax credit is you actually if you owe 10,000 in taxes and you under your scenario and you pay, lets say 10,000 for a private school then you owe no taxes. Congresswoman can i just interject because that is, that is absolutely a misunderstanding of the proposal. Explain so we know. The proposal is voluntary contributions from businesses or individuals to 501 c3 Scholarship Granting Organizations that would then give scholarships to families as defined by the state that decides to participate. And in most states where there are education freedom, School Choice programs, they are geared and targeted to primarily low income families, many times also students with disabilities and they are programs for students who are most vulnerable and most disadvantaged. And so it would be individuals who choose to help other students and other families who would voluntarily make those contributions. It is not a program for people of wealth. Okay. People of wealth already have choices. Correct. People of wealth already people of color already have choices. All of these policies are designated for and are targeted toward individuals and families who dont have that power, who are assigned to schools that are not working for them. I want to reclaim my time to followup on representative clarks question. Is there anything in your proposal that requires nondiscrimination . So, for example, can they can somebody keep a gay student out or can they discriminate on the basis of religion or the School Choice and education free is families and students voluntarily choose a place that works and fits for them. So i understand this, so they can choose to go to a school that only allows a certain religion or a certain gender or a certain race, is that correct. Many schools have unique. The answer is yes, thank you. I answered it for you. Okay. So i have a i have another question. I think coming out soon is a new rule on that reference to title nine on Sexual Harassment and violence in colleges, is that rule going to be published soon . I expect it will be soon, yes. So i think you probably know that theres a lot of concern from folks about what this is going to mean because all the statistics so forth so that theres still a lot of Sexual Violence on campuses and theres a lot of concern that your new rule is actually going to discourage victims from coming forward. Theres one particular point that i do want to ask you about and maybe you can just clarify it because i cannot i dont understand it. I read that rule in so as long. Under the proposed rule, alleged harassment must occur within the schools own program or activity. So my question is whether or not that would cover off campus, for example, frat houses, would it pertain to online Sexual Harassment . Well, maam, because the rule is not yet finalized nor published, i cant comment on it, it would not be appropriate to comment and it would not be appropriate to yes, youre going to ask a request first question and then ask another. Its not appropriate to comment the rule is not yet final. So is the rule, as you understand proposed, as its proposed, is it going to cover, for example, a Sexual Assault on a at a frat house thats off campus or Online Harassment and bullying . Again, i cannot comment. Okay. My final question is, you know, we just read that japan is closing all its schools because of the coronavirus. So id like to know what plans you are making in regards to coronavirus. Good question. Ive convened a task force within the department and ask asked my deputy secretary to head that task force to ensure we have our continuance policies and every plan in place for work in and through the department and we continue to work with the other agencies across government to ensure that we are prepared to respond and react and do as we should thank you, im happy to hear that youre doing that. I just hope that you will keep us informed. I yield back. Congresswoman watsoncoleman. I can have congresswoman go first, the first round, is that what you want to do . Actually i would. If you i just need a moment. Thank you. I mentioned the full Service Communities before. I think theyre critical to bring together, health, family engagement, Early Childhood opportunities to really help children and their families thrive. Yet, you propose eliminating dozens of k through 12 programs including Community Schools. We came together on a bipartisan basis in this congress to authorize the full Service Community School Program in 2015 because we know its value in the district. First of all, id like to know have you ever visited a full service Community School. Ive visited many schools and maybe one could be termed that. Its inaccurate to say we have proposed to eliminating these programs. Weve proposed rolling them up in a block grant and your school that youve cited and admired is exactly why we should consider the block grant proposal because it would allow schools and districts in your state to actually expand on those and target those resources in that direction if thats the right answer for the students in that district or in that region. It would give a lot more flexibility to states and communities, not eliminating anything, but putting it in one big pool. Money well, the request is at the level that it is, you are the appropriators, youll decide at what level to fund and i think the important thing is the policy here. And the proposal, the policy proposal is to put all of those programs together in one block grant that would then allow the most local level, those closest to the students, to target the resources, to meet the needs of the kids that are most vulnerable in that School District in a way thats going to uniquely meet their needs. However, youre decreasing the amount of money in the pot, so that youre making schools really compete against each other for these dollars. So im hoping as we go through the budgets, we will increase those dollars so we can sustain programs like this and he think youd be interested in visiting some of those schools, id be happy to give you a tour if you come up to westchester. Thank you. Now, after School Program, your budget eliminates funding for after School Programs. Its included in the block grant. Oh, youre decreasing the pot, the pot of money and putting everything in the block grant to allow for flexibility at the local School District level. But it if youre cutting the budget well, again, youre the appropriators so you decide at what level to fund it, but i think the important thing is the proposal to put all of them together in a block grant and allow for states and local districts to make decisions on which what programs are most effective and what is going to work best to meet the needs of the most vulnerable students in that district. With less money, i get it. But let me just say this because i think its important and you probably know it, the amount of federal funds going to districts is usually about 10 , i dont know if its. Its actually less than 5 . Probably about 9 of the budget. Youre saying put them in a pot, decreasing the fund, everythings going to be fine, but i think thats where we have a real disagreement and youre saying we are the appropriators, if youre the secretary of education, your abouten is valued and it disappoints me that you would take all of these good programs, say put them in a pot, and then, okay, decrease the dollars, but well move on because its almost completed. Did anyone ask this one . Okay. Im sorry, there are a couple of hearings going on. I understand. I think i was in the hold room in the other one. Okay. Now another Favorite Program of mine, maybe this is in the pot, too. And i think its really worth youre seeing, is the ccampus program. More than one in five College Student is a parent those with a young child, accessing care on campus can make the difference and struggle to get good child care is reality, frankly, for a growing number of College Students. Not every college campus, i have to get to the question. Oh, yeah. Sorry about that. What do you think . Are you aware of the i am aware of it and i know what our Budget Proposal has advanced, but i also know that the health and Human Services budget really contains the block, you know the increased funding around child care. This is certainly a priority of the administration and we believe that those programs through hhs would definitely be able to meet the needs that of the program that youve cited as well. Well, im out of time, but let me just say if the 3 billion 3 Million Dollar cut you were to propose would take place these programs would disappear because the locals have the major responsibility and our work is invaluable and our money invaluable in supporting their efforts. Oh, thats did i say that . Its 38 Million Dollar, but like i say hhs has the bulk of the child care Budget Proposal funds and thats where the administration has put the priority around child care. And let me just say if youre going back to the i like the color to look at in transportation than here. A little aside. A pretty green on the wall. And putting pictures up and and thank you very much, madam chairman, and thank you, secretary devos. Im going to ask you a couple of questions regarding the reduction in investment in our children under your proposed budget. Im really concerned about the achievement gap as well as you are and i just maybe dont agree with our approach to it. The achievement gap that you talk about exists, i think, in part because schools lack equitable discipline guidance in addition to other resources and students of color are disproportionately kept out of schools and their learning. And last theres a gross lack of accountability from your department and ensuring that School Districts kroot the country live up to admissions. Lets talk first about the discipline piece. This year a sixyearold girl in florida was arrested and taken from her school even though School Officials maintained they did not want the girl arrested. This is an all too common issue for our black children. According to the civil rights Data Collection, black k12 students are nearly four times as white kids to receive out of School Suspensions. Black students are nearly twice as likely to be expelled from School Without Education Services compared to their white counterparts. This data is disconcerting because students who were suspended or expelled for a disciplinary violation were almost three times as likely to be in contact with the juvenile Justice System in the next year. How do we reconcile this disparity with the percentage of population, black students represent, yet the percentage of discipline . And given that, you have rescinded the guidance intended give the school tools to break the tool to prison pipeline, i hope thats what it was intended for. What are your plans to make certain the schools are a safe environment and dont unfairly punish for discipline children and what do you envision providing your request to schools to address this issue. Congresswoman, thank you for that question and you cited up at the top, your concern about the achievement gap and i share that concern and have shared that concern for the three plus decades that ive been working to change policy to free up children who havent been able to achieve because of being stuck in a cool that doesnt work for them. And you, i think you may have misstated when you said you dont agree. You dont agree with our approach meaning your approach . I, too, dont agree with your approach with continuing to do the same thing with more and more resources and exexpect a different result. Thats why our proposal has suggested taking all of virtually all of the elementary and secondary Education Funding from the federal level and block granting it to the states and then they in formula to the local districts to allow for the greatest amount of flexibility to directly address the needs of the students in that district and in that school. And i i think this is important excuse me, did that include alternatives to a public option . No, this would be the funding from the federal government for all of the elementary and secondary Education Programs and it would be granted to the states and formulaed out under the title one formulation and 90 plus percent of it going to local districts, but it would allow the local districts the kind of flexibility they dont have today. It would free up tons of hours, literally 225 years of time in complying with and writing reports and would allow them to target those resources directly to the kids who need it most. Well, i certainly agree that teachers are required to do a lot of paper work, thats just takes time away from their teaching. I want to talk to you about Something Else that concerns me in the budget, which i think is a reflection of our values or your values or the president s values. The dugout eliminates 41 programs and cuts a number no, no, it doesnt. It takes them all and puts them into the block grant and allows flexibility at the state and local level. So its not eliminating them. So it is 29 of them. It is putting more programs in one box with a limited amount of money, asking them to already compete with one another for no, they wouldnt be competing, they wouldnt be competing. Theyre formula granted out. 90 of the funds. Lets talk about the trio program. Lets talk to me about the trio program oh. All right. Im sorry, i cant hear you. [inaudible] sure. We have proposed we have proposed combining the trio and gearup functions in the trio program and again, coupled with flexibility that the block grant for the another 29 programs would afford state and local districts, if the if theres more desire to be spent in the area of what the trio programs are doing, it would allow, again, more personalization for the students that are for those closest to the students in those districts. I seek unanimous consent to enter testimony from some of our students in the trio program which has been vitally important which i think is not getting the appropriate attention he think it should. Thank you, madam secretary. I think in a bipartisan way theres an agreement on your comment and so ordered the information into the record. Were going to do another round, but its two minutes so that we can move quickly. I just might add if you have not seen the video of this sixyearold child being put in handcuffs, pleading, pleading for not to have handcuffs, that is a visual of what my colleagues are talking about which is what is happening to particularly africanamerican kids and kids of color in preschool, sobbing not to be put in handcuffs at six years old. Anyway. The i just, a quick question, the crediting counsel for independent colleges and schools, acics, lawsuits, accreditation 2016 demonstrated extraordinary, monitoring enforcements, standard below the departments requirement. 2018 you reinstated it and its in financial peril, lost its former accredited institutions, not recognized by the council for Higher Education, uncoughed by usa today, that acics accredited Reagan National university, no campus, no staff, students or alumni, what is the department doing making sure that students arent being duped by deceitful forprofit college accredited by an agency you reinstated. Will you consider reversing your decision to reinstate. Well, chairwoman i was trouble by reading that piece as well and have directed that an investigation ensue to see whats going on there. I was not happy to read that. So you would be willing to we have an investigation launched and were on it. Okay. And to reinstate that, i thank you for that. I tell you what im going to do [inaudible] thank you very much. I know weve got just a little time here. So, quickly, madam secretary, information ive had some questions on Charter Schools id like to submit them for the record and youve made your position very clear and i appreciate that very much and your records wellknown. But i do have some concerns on the what would happen to the money weve gone so far. Second area that i and i have enormous sympathy with you in terms of this whole student loan problem and commend you for trying to think through different ways to deal with it. In full disclosure, i was not happy when we moved away from the Loan Guarantee approach and sort of kept it out of your bailiwick and weve underresourced the problem for a number of years. And im not sure we have the power to do much here. Its an authorizing function i think for the most part, but im very curious about what youre doing now to try and combat this. I know youre doing some technology thij thing so id like to if youd like to expound longer term what the idea should be. We sort of put the federal government on the hook in a way i dont think we ever should have in terms of this and weve turned this into an extraordinary political issue, the president ial candidates kick around and i would like to get the department out of the middle of this crossfire if theres some way to do it Going Forward. So your thoughts would be most welcome. Sure, well, as i mentioned earlier, its a very large and complex issue. And i think we spend a lot of time talking about the loans and the did et that debt that students are taking on not quite as much time challenging why the cost of Higher Education continues to skyrocket. You know, theres a lot of theory around that, but our Budget Proposal does suggest capping off the amount that graduate students can take out in Students Loans through the federal government and capping out the amount that importantly parents can take. We know that there have been all too many parents that have taken out loans in greater than they are able to really afford and Social Security being garnished as a result, but graduate students, we have over yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. First to my colleagues on the other side. Let me just say this to you and i appreciate your comments, but when many of us started Public Schools, schools were segregated, we could not go to Public Schools, got it . In 2017 we asked the secretary to submit a report about the resegregation of our Public Schools. To date that report has not been submitted so i cannot be nice when i ask about this because this is serious for our black and brown students and many of us understand the role of the federal government in desegregation of Public Schools. Now, madam secretary, let me ask you about the budget as relates to expanding pell grants for incarcerated students you said you supported it, but i cant find in your budget request any line item for that. Have you estimated how much it would cost and do you want to request funding for this . Well, we have made the request to have congress consider a permanent expansion becau because because its not a program other than a pilot through the department currently there isnt a specific piece of bugetary guidance to suggest with it. So what do we need to do to get you to do that, to submit a line item for us . Well, i think Congress Needs to act and make Second Chance pell a program. We have to authorize it. Its currently just a Experimental Program through our, you know, our authorities in the department. Okay, so well work on that. Let me ask you about hbcus because this budget doesnt increase funding for hvcus, except that those are in the opportunity zones which leaves out about 50 of the hvcus, so let me ask you about that because we know that the president has touted his support for hbcus and yet we see a budget that level funds historically black colleges. I would just say that that is definitely indication of support that 50 wont be included. But the funding for the related programs is an indication of the priority that we have placed on that and then in 150 Million Dollar plus up for hbcus and other minority serving institutions for stemrelated programs in opportunity zones. Which opportunity zones are all across the country. I know, and 50 of thank you, madam secretary. Thank you, again, madam secretary, and madam chair, id without objection id move to include the may, 2019 Harvard Kennedy school poll, add next poll into the record. Good. Madam secretary, lets just clear up something about the education freedom scholarships. Just like, you know, when i write a check to my church every week, its tax deductible, im assuming my church is using you know, something religious associated with it, so the idea of having some tax preference for someone who actually has a religious, you know, bent is not a new concept, is that right . Thats correct. Okay, now lets talk about the may 2019 Harvard Kennedy school poll that looked at School Choice and looked at tax credits and most importantly, vouchers for low income students. The fact of the matter is by 49 to 41 all the people they sampled approved it, but the most interesting thing and im ashamed that republicans only have 44 and democrats 52 . The reason why the democrats prefer it more is because africanamerican democrats have 70 approval for low income vouchers and hispanic democrats 6 67 the fact of the matter is it these parents, the people who are actually most concerned with their students, with their childrens education outcome actually want low income vouchers, and i would suggest a soft bigotry of low expectations that somehow were not going to provide it to them because we know better. To quote a candidate who is now the president , i have a suspicion that a lot of those parents are asking themselves the question, what do i have to lose. I yield back. Congressman. Thank you very much, madam chairman and thank you again. And im going to channel congressman molnar. And i am a product of the Public Schools and we sold my moms house and im passionate about Public Schools. And many of the schools because they discriminate as a gay kid i wouldnt have been able to go or been beat up. I take it personal add this comment to that as well. I also am passionate about Public Schools and passionate about all schools, all schools that are for kids, fit for kids and ask if i can ask the question and i have two minutes, less than two minutes, one minute left. What are we doing going after the tax dollars gone after the failed Charter Schools, havent opened or failed. Are we doing anything to get na money back . That report a totally die debunked. This is the frustration, when i ask the question, dont answer a different one. Its 1 1 2 of the total number of schools that didnt open and i will be happy. Do you go after those dollars. I will be happy to look into that further and get back to you on the disposition of those. The answer thank you very much. The to forprofit colleges you got rid after program in the Obama Administration who directed students from failed colleges on their loan and they had to sue about the loan forgiveness and a judge said that the department of education was not following that order and fined 100,000. What are we doing to collect the payments. Are we collected payments from defrauded students and are we going to try to take care of those students . Every student that has filed a borrow defense claim is was put in forebearance at that time. Like when i got my job, there was no process and i said its going to take a while to figure out the process. Lets make sure these students arent incurring any more interest, arent having to pay any more on their student loan as long as their claims are in process and so that has been the case on all of those claims that are not yet closed. Now, weve been stymied a couple of steps along the way by procedural rulings in court. Well waiting for the 9th district to rule on a methodology, but nothing pains me more than to not be able to resolve those completely. Ill followup, thank you. Thank you, madam chair and again, thank you, madam secretary for being here. I want to talk with you a little about the block grants because i think thats an important concept that its kind of hard to get our hands around. So if i understand what youre saying is, youre taking some of the federally mandated spending programs, youre consolidating it together into a Flexible Spending Program that states and local School Districts are going to have the ability to determine, so for instance, if one local community said, they wanted to pro cuss on school focus on School Safety they could use funds for that. Corrects. If one said we think that career and College Counseling could be part of it, we think it should be for that. Correct. Mental Health Counselors as my colleague mentioned it, you could use it for the needs identified kind of on the ground where people are saying, hey, this is really what our School District needs . Well, and recalling that most of these programs and including and especially title one were, you know, created to really help the most disadvantaged students. And i go back to my Opening Statement where i said, a trillion dollars spent over the last 40 years to close the achievement gap hasnt closed one bit. Has opened in many cases for lots of kids, particularly at the low end of the spectrum. And so, lets do something different. Lets allow for that flexibility to translate down to the local level so they can target those dollars where the students need it most. Thank you. And then in terms of the dollar amount because i know whenever were talking budgets, people are upset about different spending levels. Ultimately your point is congress is going to determine what spending level is in that. Correct. From yes, the administration has advanced this Budget Proposal. The important part, the policy part here about the block grant, i think, is the really important piece to consider. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, madam chair. To follow up, your last statement to me is we do not discriminate against children, is that correct . We uphold all of the laws of this land and, yes. Okay. So if were operating on a nondiscrimination basis, which i think is the absolutely appropriate role for you to take, i hope that you will rescind on page e8 of the safe schools citizen education fy21 budget request where you said you stand by that racist research. I will look forward to you reversing course from that position in your budget. And we can have a long discussion about tax credits and treasury and i understand tax credits and you and i disagree apparently the tax credits are federal funding, but will you, as secretary of education, who has just said you will not allow children to be discriminated by race, religion, transgender, status, sexual orientation, will you guarantee to me, to the children of this country, that however funded, this program that is in your budget, that is 5 billion of taxpayer money, when it is rolled out in states, will you guarantee that every Single School will have a Nondiscrimination Policy in order to qualify for that . Well, congresswoman this is not proposed to be a federal program, this is proposed to be a federal tax credit that let me finish. Will you guarantee that the legislation is specifically for states to create programs that are going to meet the needs of the most vulnerable and needy students in that state. So were right back to where we were. Were right back to the reality of the fact that this program is to be implemented and designed at the state level voluntarily contributed to by federal taxpayer. So im going to be clear. That you have corrected the record, when you said to me that you as secretary of education would ensure that this program would only go to schools with nondiscrimination policies, that is no longer your stance, this is a states choice that you you will not do that as secretary of education . Maam, may i suggest that youre mixing up and youre not staying clear on the purpose of the program. I am perfectly which is to help students get a great education. In a place that fits for that. To say you would stand up for kids is appalling and you really should resign. Congresswoman herera butler. Thank you, madam chair. I would love to have a little bit more clarification on the opportunity scholarship, or the federal freedom opportunity Choice Program because i do want to make sure its on the record very clearly whether its a new program, whether its federal funding, and whether there are strings attached, and actually, too, whether by somehow, you know, when i recognize its treasurys program, but is there some way that this is not under the laws of the land, our civil rights, Constitutional Rights somehow abridged when starting this program . Let me respond to that directly first. No, civil rights are not abridged in any way, period. Its not a new program to be administered at the federal level. Its merely a vehicle to effectively and efficiently get voluntary contributions directly to Scholarship Granting Organizations as decided by states that choose to participate. With the idea that theyre going to turn around and create one or more programs that are going to specifically address the needs of k12 students in their states. So no more than giving money to planned parenthood which is a 501 c3 or your church, which is tax exempt. I mean, this is no more federal funding that correct. That churches arent federally funded. Corrects. I think theres a pretty big decide that. The other oh, its going down, so, the other thing going up or down . The other thing i wanted to ask about is are there opportunities in the department with regard to encouraging students to participate in credit programs leak running start . Start like running start. I think thats one way well help them with college costs. Our proposal is to dramatically increase funding for career and Technology Education. At a times when states are writing their plans and ready to implement it. I visited a lot of schools that have fledging dual enrollment programs, many that want to have many more and expand them dramatically. I expect that thats going to be, continue to be a growing reality and certainly those places that are being forward leaning and recognizing the opportunities for their students are going to get that right. Thank you. Congresswoman frankel. Thank you. I just want to im going to followup on miss clarks question. First of all, can i say, one of my colleagues compared the tax credit to a tax deduction, i think its a big difference. You would agree with that, a tax credit is, you take your certain percentage of what you owe and you instead of paying it to the federal government youre giving it to a private school . No, you get to give it directly, effectively and efficiently to to a private school. To a its a 501 c3 Scholarship Granting Organization and a state that chooses to participate. Exactly. So i just want to career and Technical Education. Let me tell you is something, the state of florida is having this program. Very successfully. Not very successfully, in fact, i just read an article where three banks that had been contributing have now pulled out because they found theyre 156 schools in florida that are discriminated against students who are lbgtq. Here is what i want to say we have a different philosophy. I just want to say it is a mistake, i believe, for you to come in here to cut 6 billion and ask for a cut of 6 billion out of Public Education and then at the same time ask us or ask this congress to set up a program so that whether its a corporation or a person, a total of 5 billion can now go, instead of to the federal government to pay taxes, to some Scholarship Program that they could put money into a private institution that discriminates against people so i think thats a mistake. And maam, isnt education about kids . Yes, education is about. Okay. I tell you something, the great equalizer in life is a good Public Education. Is an education, yes. One other thing i want to say is this, im very disappointed that, im going to try to say this nicely, okay, im very disappointed that you feigned ignorance today about a dangerous new policy on campus violence. Im very, very worried about that and im really i dont understand why you couldnt im not ignorant about it i told you we have not released the final rule and it would not be appropriate for me to comment. Thank you, i yield back. Public education is a great equalizer and the reason the federal government has a role in Public Education with the guarantee that children were protected, that opportunities were available, that there was equality and equity of the educational Delivery System and its not about alternatives to that system. We have a responsibility to make that system work for all the children. And it concerns me, i asked you a question how do you reconcile the disproportionate discipline of minority students in schools and suspensions and et cetera, and even the arresting of a sixyearold in schools without your questioning why thats happening and one other thing, madam secretary, anytime the federal government puts money into one of these School Districts, you can require that there be a nondiscrimination program. Youve got a responsibility to require that theres not discrimination against children, whether or not theyre black, latino, or part of the lbgtq communities. Thats your responsibility, but you dont seem to give one good hoot about Public Education. Every time we talk about Public Education, you talk about education and when you talk about education, you talk about the alternatives that you think work. Let me tell you, one of the reasons that our children are not achieving to the extent that they are intellectually capable of doing so is because were not putting the resources where they need to be, in the Public School system. And until we can reconcile that, you all dont have any right to talk about improving the system, i yield back. Madam chairwoman could i comment on that. I didnt ask a question. Congressman cole. If you want to just try to wrap up your comments, i will wrap up and then we will bring this hearing to a close. Well, its been another eventful day at labor h madam chair. I want to begin madam secretary by thanking you, thank you for your service that you render this country each and every day. Ive known you for a long time. I agree with my friend, mr. Mullen, i dont know inbound in that cares more about young people getting an education than you and you have a lifetime of Commitment Service and generosity, as does your family, to demonstrate that and so while we may have disagreements on particular programs, any of us up here, you and i have a couple, that doesnt diminish one wit from the enormous sacrifice and service that you and your family have given people of all races, all colors, every ethnicity, every background for many, many, many years, and i consider your service as secretary to be an extension of that, quite frankly. Second, i really want to applaud you on this career and Technology Education initiative. Both the additional money for the institutions in question, that youve proposed. I think its a very wise investment. And im particularly appreciate you taking the lead and putting on front, weve got a lot of students that would benefit from this kind of education that cant afford what are even very modest fees as a rule. So, your willingness to look at the pell grant as an extension, you know, we all want kids that want to get college educations, to have that opportunity. Its one of the reason im fierce about trio and gear up and some of these programs, but recognize the vast majority of students wont go for a Fouryear College and thats not the right approach for them and sometimes i think we forget about them a lot. In this proposal youre looking at folks that are too often forgotten and the president is a leader the took the Apprentice Program and it was an obama proposal and put more money into that and this has been a theme in his tenure and your tenure and i appreciate that. Finally i want to continue to dialog on a variety of programs and would love to invite you sometimes love you to i was particularly pleased on your proposal on Second Chance pell. Ive been to Tulsa Community college and seen that program, they do outstanding work, thank you for mentioning them, it will surprise, delight and thrill them no end, but i think more importantly, its part of our population again that gets neglected and left behind and you putting a search light on it and lets help people that had misfortune and made mistakes, get back on the right track in life and give them an opportunity to make a decent living. And its really a good thing. Last thing i will commit to you, im going to wrestle with this student loan problem because i see it as a real issue and im glad you mentioned the telling point about the cost of college as well. This isnt just a matter of, you know, the federal government, we have a lot of private institutions that need to think very carefully how they counsel students and what they encourage them to do and frankly, the advice sometimes they dont give them as to what the appropriate level of debt, if any should be for them. And then finally, the administration of this, you rightly point out, it frustrated me when i was chairman and im sure it frufs our chairman the amount of resources that are getting put into looking after this. Again, my personal view is we made a mistake and got out of the Loan Guarantee bausiness and over to the department of education and probably shouldnt be your mission. Your thoughts as you grapple with this. Madam chairwoman i want to thank you, youre always a great working partner and appreciate the way you manage our committee and we occasionally have differences, but we very seldom have deep disagreements with the task in front of us. I looked forward to working with you as we craft this budgets and budgets under your jurisdictions, as always well find a lot more Common Ground than we do differences. Cant commit to vote for your first bill, but we can come to an agreement in conference, i think we can do it again, thank you. I want to thank the gentleman, its really been an extraordinary, positive its a working experience, but its a friendship. For that i am deeply, deeply grateful because its that friendship that allows us to get the business of the country done and thats why were all here. And we believe in that. I just want to say one thing, madam secretary, ive got a couple of items, but the couple of comments that my colleagues have made with regard to this notion that states can take theyre taking a public money and whatever form and they discriminate that that will be up to the state. You may not want to take on that issue and we all believe you have that authority, but we are not going to stand by and watch states discriminate against our children in terms of proceeding to get an education. Let me mention puerto rico, if i can. I want to take time to acknowledge the continued struggle of children in puerto rico. They have been really dealing with try to recover from earthquake, from all kinds of disasters, still from hurricane maria. I have been told and will look into this, that kids are going to school in tents. I dont know if youve been or if your staff has been to the island, but i would ask you to do that and to see these conditions and really to urge the administration to support the house supplemental bill. Its really imperative when i was there for maria, children were afraid to go to school because if they went to school, they were fearful when they went home, their parents would not be there. Were dealing with both education and were dealing with Mental Health issues regarding these children and i think we all believe we have a moral responsibility in this area. And finally, let me just say theres been a lot of discussion about the k12 education program. My view, i think the view of my colleagues is that you propose to eliminate those programs, replace them with one block grant in your words, eliminate the federal burdens that have been in a quote, have inhibited innovation. Im concerned, madam secretary, that you confuse essential protection for children across all the formula programs as burr urgent. One of the nations urgent charges achieve tment gap ned to provide language instruction, professional development of the teachers, english learners, parents, family, community engagement. From the testimony it appears you look at the lem you see formula grants that place burdens on states, however, lie being at elementary and seco secondary as english learners, homeless, minors, children in juvenile Justice System and the list goes on. We need to be clear in the department and you are the department, should be straight with the nations parents and educators, let them know which we are going to leave the last few minutes of that hearing to honor our longterm commitment to gavel to gavel coverage. U. S. Senate. The senate today resuming debate on a bill to reset u. S. Energy policy combining more than 50 b