Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Migration At The U.S. Southern Border 20240713

Subcommittee on Border Security will come to order. Subcommittee is meeting to receive testimony in examining the human rights and legal implications of dhss remain in mexico policy. Without objection the chair is authorized to declare the subcommittee in recess at any point. Good morning. Today we will examine implications of a migrant protection protocol more commonly known as the remain in Mexico Program. We will hear the perspective of practitioners who witnessed the program on the ground. Since the program went into effect on january 18, 2019, the remain in mexico policy has forced 10,000 asylumseekers to wait in mexico while their claims are processed. This summary does not begin to touch on the devastating and deceptive impact on countless lives. Prior to this programs implication, asylumseekers will stay in the United States as it moves through the court. Policy based on the humane and common sense premise that should be given temporary safe havens, deciding whether or not they will remain in our country. Under remain in mexico, migrants who arrive at the southern border in former us official they are seeking asylum, are provided a court date and sent back into mexico until their initial hearing. It is mostly from central and south america having fled their homes to escape Gang Violence and government oppression. There almost always strangers to mexico with no friends or family to rely on as they wait on a decision in the United States. And they are active and hard to come by and local government officials have been known to engage in violence and exploitation. As a result is migrants, fleeing violence and oppression, in conditions that makes no difference, families fleeing mexico to this policy face kidnapping, Sexual Assault and extortion. In addition to provoking another humanitarian crisis, remain in mexico presents a serious threat to national security. The program has created a newly vulnerable population that completely exposed exploitation by drug cartels, allowing a organization to remain along the border and even expand their reach. The administration assured lawmakers and the public the program would be carefully applied making exceptions for mexican nationals, nonspanish speakers, pregnant women, the Lgbt Q Community and people with disabilities. However investigations and reporting have revealed individuals from every protected category are frequently turned away and left to fend for themselves in mexican cities. The Us State Department marked is too dangerous for travel. In august 2019 dhs notified congress it would build large temporary immigration hearing facilities to conduct remain in mexico, located in brownsville these temporary facilities are functioning as virtual Immigration Court rooms, with judges appearing via videoconference from brick and mortar court rooms across the country. These facilities have become a significant cause for alarm. Like a Public Information about the proceedings, limited access to translators and attorneys and complete disregard for migrant legal rights are some of the many problems emerging from this court system. Reports describe secretive assemblyline proceedings to conduct hundreds of hearings per day. Cvp, ice and dhs provided Little Information on the functioning of these courts, despite numerous inquiries, news outlets and congressional staff. Lack of available information on operations is exacerbated by severe restrictions on who can access the facility. With barbed wire fences and security managed by private companies they are closed to public news outlets and legal advocacy organizations. Despite the clear Legal Standard that all immigration proceedings are open to the public cvp has rejected request after request to access. These facilities dramatically worsen the nature of the program by removing any ability of migrants to access legal aid. Furthermore the prohibitions on oversight expose migrants to violations of Due Process Rights established asylumseekers in us law. We invited witnesses to shed light on this untenable situation and thank them for joining us today. Are asylum laws emerged after the second world war, and the nation faces a shameful truth, we failed to provide a safe haven. Since then we grant asylum to desperate communities fleeing danger all over the world and in doing so, saved an untold number of lives. The remain in mexico policy, reprehensible step backward and the continuation of this administrations abandonment of the nations longstanding and bipartisan tradition of protecting asylumseekers and refugees. We hope to build Public Awareness of this policy and improve our own understanding that we can find a way to stop needless harm inflicted on men, women and children seeking safety in our great country. The chair recognizes the subcommittee member mister higgins. Thank you, madam chair and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. While i look forward to hearing your testimony i also would like to voice that im disappointed now dhs officials actually responsible for negotiating and implementing the migrant protection protocol agreement with the government of mexico were invited to testify today by the majority. I am also concerned by the partisan preconception surrounding the hearing title. This past year we saw crisis at the border that was referred to by some as a fake emergency, virtually explode as 977,000 people attempted to illegally enter the United States through our southwest border. That is more than we encountered in 20172018 combined, larger than the population of the entire state of delaware. Historically most legal immigrants have been single adults from mexico looking for temporary work. In fiscal year 2000, Border Patrol was able to repatriate the majority of those detained within hours. Today most Illegal Immigrants are family units and unaccompanied minors from guatemala, honduras and el salvador. This fiscal year 19 customs and Border Protection encountered 473,600 every 2 families, an increase from fiscal year 13. This change is directly tied to criminal organizations exploiting loopholes in our Immigration Laws as propaganda to convince people to bring children to the border. Migrants who have given up life savings in many cases mortgaging homes and properties, handing over to children to smugglers because they are falsely told children are visas to get into this country. Even the Guatemalan Ministry of Foreign Affairs publicly confirmed this. Smugglers dont care about the wellbeing of migrants. They only care about turning a profit. In fiscal year 19 customs and Border Protection averaged 71 hospital visits per day for migrants that arrived at the border in deteriorating health. Border patrol conducted over 4900 rescues of immigrants left to die. Former dhs secretary mc illinin testified that fraudulent family cases that have been uncovered where the adult is not the parent of the child. 1000 of those resulted in prosecutions. The cartel sending children back on commercial airlines to their own country and return to the border with different adults. Agents call this practice recycling children. Ice identified 600 children who have gone through the list. One child told investigators he was forced to make the trip 8 times. There is a common misconception that most people illegally crossing the border are seeking asylum. However less than 20 of immigrants in customs and Border Patrol custody were found to have, quote, credible fear to return to their home country. In fiscal year 18 the number was 18 and for those saying everyone is turning themselves and that is not the case. According to customs and Border Protection last year, 150,000 migrants who illegally entered this country got away from authorities, even waiting capture and making their way to the interior. Trump administration forced to act alone and has taken several Enforcement Actions to mitigate the crisis as gridlock over Immigration Reform continues in congress. Dhs implemented migrant protection protocols to cut down on overcrowding of migrants and dhs custody. The number of migrants being released into Us Communities due to immigration backlog. As one point this year cvp had almost 20,000 people in custody. They are averaging less than 3500. Dhs has invested in temporary courtrooms near southwest border ports of entry, expediting immigration hearings and it ends the economic incentive of making a meritless asylum claim considering 20 of asylum claims get favorable final judgment with every asylum applicant released in the interior is provided with work authorization. The cooperate of justice statistics point to more than 89,000 orders of removal for fiscal year 19, for those who were not detained. Mvp mitigates the risk that those removed will disappear into the United States interior. This month dhs has taken the International Organization for migration visited several shelters operated by faithbased organizations and the government of mexico to house these individuals. These shelters had a persistent Law Enforcement presence, medical care and access to food and water. Todays hearing could have been an opportunity to bring in the department to ask about that visit and discuss implementation of the program with detailed. We have seemingly forgone Factfinding Mission for something that might resemble a show trial. Nevertheless i want to thank our witnesses for appearing before us today and look forward to your testimony. I yield back. The chair recognizes the chairman of the full committee, Mister Thompson for Opening Statement. The subcommittee will hear how the Trump Administration remains in mexico policy has distorted by immigration the system. Effectively closing the door to people seeking safety in this country. I share the chairwomans concerns about the legal and humanitarian implications of this misguided policy and thank you for calling this hearing. The department of Homeland Security officials argue remain in mexico have allowed u. S. Customs and Border Protection to regain operational control of our border with mexico. We actually know better. The policies raise serious legal questions and created a new humanitarian crisis along the southern border. It runs contrary to our American Values. Returning migrants with known physical, mental and Developmental Disabilities in mexico is unacceptable, sending pregnant women into mexico where there is no safe housing and basic medical care for them is unacceptable. Establishing secretive courts, dhs uses to prosecute asylumseekers who wish to return to mexico runs contrary to our values. Indeed, Immigration Court proceedings are generally open to the public for the sake of transparency. American Immigration Lawyers association, aclu and Amnesty International among others regularly observe these proceedings. However these organizations have been repeatedly denied access to the temporary courts in laredo. For those of you familiar with the Rio Grande Valley, you know about the work of Catholic Charities carried out to assist migrants in that region. And also been denied entry multiple times with no real explanation as to what . These observers are desperately needed. To get into the port courts, talk about Court Operations that run roughshod over basic Due Process Rights. Paperwork is filled out, wrong information, a certain information that was purposely left blank for example. Every step that can be taken to limit the amount of time to meet with their client is taken. Cvp has even allegedly fabricated future hearing dates for migrants who were granted asylum in order to return them to mexico. The administration appears intent on cutting off access to the lawful asylum process even if their actions are legally questionable for vulnerable adults and children in danger. I look forward to hearing from our founders about firsthand observation and experience to remain in mexico policy. That will inform future Committee Oversight work. Border security as long been about partisan priorities of this committee, and blocking the asylum process for Vulnerable People and risking their lives by putting them in harms way, does not make a safer. Just makes us out less than remake ourselves out to be thank you for holding the hearing and the members of the committee for their participation. I yelled back. Thank you mister chairman the Ranking Member of the full committee is recognized for an Opening Statement. I wholeheartedly support the remain in mexico policy. I think its an essential policy and a weight inhumane. This pastor nearly 1 million Illegal Immigrants were encountered coming across our southwest border. It led to an unprecedented humanitarian crisis. Cbp the soldiers were overwhelmed and overrun leading to dangerous conditions both for migrants and Law Enforcement officers. Every day up to 50 of four patrol agents were taken off the line to process and care for immigrants. For months the administration requested emergency funds to deal with this crisis. For months my colleagues ignored the crisis as a fake emergency. Vital finally congress acted and provided critical emergency funding. While the funding helped it did nothing to address the root cause of the crisis and left loopholes in our asylum laws. Ay legislation to close the loopholes the Trump Administration has been forced to act on its own to secure agreement with mexico honduras guatemala and el salvador to improve Security Cooperation across the region to reduce the exploitation of Immigration Law for after negotiation with mexico dhs office so implemented the Migrant Protection Protocol Program as a regional strategy to prevent abuse of asylum laws while protecting those with legitimate claims that it discourages false asylum claims and help to create wait time migrants under the program wait months compared two years for those currently in the interior to focus on reforming Immigration Laws instead of holding messaging hearings i yelled back. I would like to seek unanimous consent the over 2018 assessment for the record. So ordered. Under Committee Rules Opening Statements may be submitted for the record without objection members not on the committee today we look for our colleagues and i welcome the Panel Witnesses the first pro bono counsel at the American Bar Association native of the Rio Grande Valley appointed at the Us State Department under the Obama Administration later serving as an immigration Trial Attorney she served as a visiting attorney with the texas civil rights project after the zero tolerance policy went into effect last summer a staff attorney for the civil rights project that advocates on behalf of immigrants and low income individuals as part of the family separation crisis last year of much of the recent efforts are assisting asylumseekers forcing to wait for the policy in mexico next the assistant professor for emergency medicine at the University Southern california asylum clinician and has worked with those in tijuana mexico over the last five years for asylum cases on both sides of the border including the individuals for weight in Mexico Program we also have the president of the American Federation local 181924 the affiliate representing more than 2500 employees in the dc region who began working with communities in 1975 in countries such as afghanistan and thailand serving as the asylum officer since 1992 but is a special representative for refugee asylum with use of the union and its members finally Mister Thomas holman former acting director of immigration and enforcement he began his career as a Police Officer in new york before joining the immigration naturals are shut in Service Serving as a Border Patrol agent and investigator and executive associate director. January 2017 President Trump named him the acting director of i. C. E. Where he served through to june 2018 without objection i now ask each witness to summarize his or statement for five minutes. Thank you to members of the subcommittee. I am pro bono counsel for the American Bar Association commission on immigration employees to testify on behalf of the president. Thank you for the opera president of the aba burqa we are concerned of the migrant protection protocol also known as remain in mexico it discriminates against Spanish Speaking asylumseekers to deny full access to the justice system. We are more concerned about the personal safety of 55000 asylumseekers objected to this policy and return to dangerous conditions in mexico particularly the border near laredo and there is a refugee camp in sentiment encampment nongovernmental organizations the facility erected near the port of entry where the hearings take place and remains closed to the public. Based in the Rio Grande Valley representing individuals i will briefly identify the primary issues that led to the erosion of Legal Protections for asylumseekers in the migrant protection protocol first asylumseekers are being returned with documents of hundreds of incidents of kidnappings and violence. Aba is concerned dhs efforts to comply with its obligations to refrain from sending refugees to suffer persecution or torture has failed asylumseekers must affirmatively request an interview to be removed from the program placing the burden on the applicant when it is a legal obligation of the United States government the Legal Standard is so high only a small percentage can actually pass the interview to be allowed to pursue their claim in the United States. Second a dhs run facility managed by cbp is a major obstacle of basic due process protection to appear for the hot hearings they travel through dangerous border cities in the middle of the night and have to wait on the bridge before they are processed for their hearing Immigration Judges and interpreters and counsel appear through video teleconference while respondents appear most without an attorney the technology can be a reliable leading to displays that can further traumatize asylumseekers when it does function no interpretation is provided during the hearing with the exception of procedural matters and that is selected by the judge the results in unfairness and lack of due process it also frustrates meaningful access to counsel they do have a statutory right to counsel in immigration proceedings it although there are many attorneyclient in the court they are you underutilized due to restricted access managed by cbp attorneys can enter only to appear for the Asylum Seeker attorneys cannot enter to screen potential clients. Once a relationship is created somehow they can only consult with their client one hour prior to the commencement of the hearing on the date of the hearing attorneys are often prohibited for meeting with their clients after the end of the hearing just to explain what transpired during the hearing for interpretation. They go to their clients in mexico a dangerous proposition that many attorneys will not take for me to meet with my clients i must take precautions to ensure my personal safety i only crossed during the day and coordinate my visits of humanitarian groups during one legal visit several convoys and heavily armed mexican military officials rolled into the refugee encampment several us attorneys and humanitarian aid workers evacuated the encampment out of fear the military would forcibly be on removing the refugees my Legal Consultation was cut short and i returned and had to consult along a narrow sidewalk along the port of entry during a heavy rainstorm with a four yearold son was crying because he was scared of the thunderstorm. Is is not meaningful access it attorney should not have to endure such dangerous conditions for their professional responsibilities for these reasons we urge the migrant protection protocols be rescinded in procedures put in place to ensure fair treatment and due process. Thank you for your time to make thank you for your testimony you may now summarize your statement for five minutes. Thank you for inviting me here to testify working with individuals that dhs has moving into the migrant protection protocols i am a staff attorney for this of rights project for the last two years i have volunteered over to people seeking asylum in the United States i have lived and worked along the texas border and all my work with asylumseekers is on a pro bono basis since august i have spent 200 hours providing Pro Bono Legal advice from those who have been removed it is almost endless want to share with you the fear and the risk and despair we feel every single day no one should be in this program they are in tents or tarps they dont have adequate food or medicine because the humanitarian aid groups are the only regular providers of aid more than half are kidnapped x assaulted extorted or raped and then returned to. These stories break my heart but no more than children tortured and assaulted that play over in my mind. One mother at her small child were kidnapped less than one hour after the Us Government forcibly returned them and tortured for eight days in another case two sisters age seven and nine were sent to mexico and then it national sexually abuse them and then he was retained one night and i like i would return to the next aid either we are partners have been successful to have these young victims removed from the program. And then to be the norm anyone can target asylumseekers with impunity and no government will care. This program puts people in lifethreatening conditions the Agency Claims anyone who has fear persecution should be pulled out but yet nobody has passed this interview. The person must have a reasonable fear ive seen them break down and sob the fear is genuine by the own report of what is happening in this region that interviews asylumseekers report to ignore them and send them back without any explanation or notice in the interview. With those dangerous areas in the hemisphere summer physical disabilities that are apparent by just looking at the person. Cancer survivors, pregnant women and children with autism and down syndrome that are still in the camp. A nonverbal woman not once was she given an interpreter with federal officers which is a blatant violation of her civil rights she could not even scream for help when her family was followed by two men at the end of her first week there dhs admitted it had aired to place her in the program however still giving her three times to the bridge director and the threat of litigation to get her taken out what had happened if we had not been there and why will the agency and we constantly find people who should be protected i listen with horror as a lesbian woman said men had punched her in the face and threatened to rape her. This is not an anomaly for the lgbtq people we work with i am horrified all i could say to asylumseekers is hold on and stay safe. That statement feel so empty when i know how often people are kidnapped as they are abused and tortured as a walk back up the bridge to the United States i only have these words to console my client they should be able to seek safety for the constitution and the Core Principles of the humanity thank you for your tim time. We now recognize doctor schaeffer. And provide care to those who have been deported including those of veterans the medical experts for more than 30 years we have looked at evaluations to the degree with those allegations of abuse to play a key role in the United States. And has changed dramatically since the Job Administration now we have increasing demand across the border. As a medical expert i looked at the dire impact that this program that first i would like to share how the medical assessment that thousands of asylumseekers arrive at the border. These findings later formed the title if i went back i would not survive. Medically evaluating asylumseekers to share harrowing stories of extreme brutality of psychological stars scars many tested positive for ptsd and depression and hypervigilance. In looking at these physical and psychological science. And a 21 yearold mother from honduras who was raped because her father on or has refused to join they enter the house and facedown one held her down while the other raped her. She described her physical state afterwards bruises on my shoulders as they held me down in experts look at hypervigilance and only compounded fear and anxiety. And eight yearold honduran boy was attacked by military men with a machete and now he is told he cries often has to hold his mothers hand. Since they arrived he lays in his nightmares and yells dad will kill us. Reporting symptoms of ptsd and then to manifest the physical ailments. Antonio did not have access to Mental Health care or therapy for adhd so that exasperated the condition since the completion of the investigation i have participated in multiple evaluations and here are snapshots and opposing gains trying to recruit youth. But then his wife was raped a second time in addition to physical scars testing positive for ptsd in the Immigration Court it was refused immediately. A young man fled honduras under pressure to join a gang diagnosed with epilepsy as a boy he was prescribed medications after being forced to wait in tijuana he suffered several procedures and officials confiscated every time he crossed to attend hearings. While we continue to provide Emergency Care in los angeles to make the patient feel safe to address their needs and fears for those in tijuana such as see firsthand how we put mental and physical health at great risk and the population he has severe levels of trauma. The stress and vigilance to require to survive in under resourced part of town forces them to look at exploitation and then forces them to seek us a cavein. And then to direct dhs to defend to abolish metering as well as any policies with the right to seek asylum. Such as programs intended to authorize officials of trained asylum off asylum officers and then to pass new legislation that effectively restrict access to asylum protection. Thank you doctor. I wish to thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to testify. I want to reiterate that i am here in my capacity as the Union Representative and not as an asylum officer im not authorized to speak on behalf of the agency but on behalf of our members. I have an extensive written statement that is submitted for the record and i would like to draw attention to the exhibits and the court brief we submitted in june in the ninth circuit and then extensively documented the objections of members to this policy in the amicus brief. We have submitted new story documents regarding the most publicized resignation of one of the asylum officers from San Francisco to be the subject of some new stories and radio over the last weekend and have included a transcript of a radio broadcast of his own statement and we just want to say for the record that the union stands firmly behind Mister Stevens and other officers who have bravely raised their voices. As indicated in my bio i am well acquainted with this field and served as an asylum officer in 1992 the second year of the programs inception i am well acquainted with crisis and conflict having worked in war zones from vietnam to cambodia and afghanistan and refugee camps across western in Southeast Asia as well as here in the United States. I mentioned that because many asylum officer colleagues are just like me to bring extensive experience and are subject Matter Experts and hired by the government to conduct some of the most difficult, complicated work of the Immigration Service and do so proudly. Many of them are attorneys and have advanced degrees in extensive experience in the human rights field and i am very dismayed statements by this administrations leadership and our own Agency Leadership has disparaged the loyal workforce going so far to question their integrity of the United States. In that inclination with this matter and with a good name and loyalty of these brave men and women. My colleagues here on the panel have eloquently testified to the effect of these programs of migrants and asylumseekers and those that have to carry the work many express their concerns internally some publicly all in good conscience not out of disloyalty we had disparaging remarks and those that are politically motivated and categorically deny those with Civil Servants taking an oath to uphold the constitution and laws of the United States in the objection to the a policies that are now implemented in her oath and commitment these are blatantly illegal and the basis for egregious Human Rights Violations and with that retaliation of leakers and whistleblowers and some members threat in with discipline and most shockingly we witness the precipitous removal of Mister Lafferty the chief of the Asylum Program one of the most respected Civil Servants ive had the honor to serve with. He was summarily dismissed and transferred with no explanation but we have reason to believe it was because of his devotion to the program and its integrity and workforce and was seen as an obstacle to carry out these policies. So i would ask the committee to have more hearings like this. We need more exposure of these situations and its only one of many serious abuses in the field and then as you read in the news we are on the eve of yet another egregious abuse by our country whereby asylumseekers will be transported to be heard in guatemala not by her own country but produces many refugees officers are dismayed and they remain committed to the job but they asked me to implore this committee to please intervene to stop this injustice perk up thank you for your time and i look forward to answer your questions. Chairman and Ranking Member and members of the subcommittee migrant protection protocol is an important step to regain control of the southern border. When the mpp was implemented those crossing illegally was at unprecedented levels those that enter or seek admission to the us from mexico may be returned with the violation of immigration proceedings still facing a humanitarian crisis on the southern border i applied dhs for using appropriate resources to address the crisis. Over 70 percent of all entrance unaccompanied units most essential america those that arrive claim fear less than 20 percent get to leave my court because they dont qualify for asylum. They dont show up. The last numbers that i saw reports 46 percent those dont file a case. And the primary goal to wait for the next one to roll around. These outdated laws and those loopholes that had caused this unprecedented surge remain in the us of the most recent 100,000 family units that have been removed after due process. Acting secretary mcaleenan said those of the most recent pilot study show up in court after being released. The mpp ensures those who claim asylum and went to see a judge will actually see a judge for i hear from many the migrants have a right to claim asylum and a right to see a judge and due process and i agree but there is a flip side prickle after due process afforded to be removed by a judge than it needs to be followed and executed where there is no integrity in the process. The loopholes that congress has failing to close as long as no more detention and century cities a pathway to citizenship only encourages more people to make the dangerous journey which continues to bankroll the cartels the same ones that smuggle drugs into the country crises enough opioid last year to fill every man woman and child twice those that were sexually assaulted making the journey and children are dying Border Patrol agents rescued over 4000 if they would die if not found by Border Patrol agents because people are too busy calling the racist and nazis if theres a crisis on the border there were caravans we saw them. Now we know is not a manufactured crisis present has done everything he can to secure the border for sovereignty as a matter of fact the ninth Circuit Court of appeals had a stay of injunction and allowed that to continue because of our president and the men and women of i. C. E. It is based on laws written by congress upheld by the ninth circuit. Another hearing today examines a policy implemented by the administration and attempt to secure the nation however i have seen no hearings in the house regarding those three loopholes such as abusive asylum process or the victims act done on sanctuary cities rather than being turned over to eyesore hearings to discuss the men and women no hearing about securing the border. No longer on the front line so when half of the Border Patrol is more vulnerable to drug smuggling such as Cartel Members and gang members and those who want to do us harm and those who want to come to the United States and do us harm and then if they buy a plane ticket or get a visa after 9 11 we have all sorts of security checks to be conducted if you want to do is harm you will come the same way illegally to the southern border. Especially now because half of the border is cover the present has taken unprecedented actions so now is time for this body to legislate this crisis i look forward to answering your questions prickle thank you spirit thank you for your testimony i will remind each member there five minutes i now recognize myself. There have been news reports that seem to seem that Border Patrol agents were denying certain migrants entry into the United States has this happened to your knowledge and what about the remain in mexico policy. I have no direct knowledge of what you just mentioned in the news report although i have read that of Border Patrol agents directing asylum officers to make certain decisions i did not get the last part of your question. One of your members shared about the directives. First of all i dont know a single asylum officer in the country and they speak to them all over the country who believes this is a good policy. Most of them have been very vocal talking to me how it is illegal but the feeling that they are complicit in human rights abuse. They are sworn to carry out the laws which guarantee due process for Asylum Seeker not everyone is guaranteed asylum but they are guaranteed to process Inhumane Treatment but the officer is not even allowed to ask them about the asylum claim they can only ask about the fear of remaining in mexico and that process is carried out with a very High Standard which is almost impossible. More often are more after with those in applying very regular this month rigorously the rules try to make positive decisions and they were overruled by the supervisors and headquarters to say that doesnt meet the standard. No real explanation other than the front office has eyes on this. So people who felt threatened to retaliation how whistleblowers were being created. I would like to follow up with you on those issues but you also said mpp was one of many programs that should be done away with also the asylum hearings held in guatemala by american officers. What other programs were you talking about you would include in that category . We have written for amicus briefs. First was opposing the travel ban and the suspension of the Refugee Program in 2017 the second was the mpp the third of the questionable changes from the white house to policy guidance and those two have substantially changing and altering the way that we believe are unlawful and for the brief filed a month ago the interim final rule which imposes a bar on Asylum Seekers an absolute bar to asylumseekers who pass through other countries and did not seek asylum there. Over the weekend it was published in the federal record a new rule as i understand to be implemented this week officers are to be trained today in fact i have to attend myself on how cases will be adjudicated asylumseekers will be transported to guatemala to have the asylum cases heard in guatemala not by the United States. It sounds like a large portion of people of women and children. What are the longterm consequences and what is the likelihood they can recover from that . Briefly trying to figure out how we do a better job taking care of these folks as an ongoing study. But to start with to create safety is rule number one longterm outcomes you can imagine the Mental Health with those types of experiences but that only Mental Health but higher morbidity and mortality because of adverse childhood events. International agreement between the United States and mexico, lets clarify for america, america is watching. Mexican government provides migrants with you medicaid protections for the duration of their stay here both the government of mexico and faithbased shelters are housing migrants who have been returned as part of mpp. To put a a number on this to clarify for america, as of november account is 57,430 Illegal Immigrants have been returned to mexico to be housed by Mexican Government and faithbased shelters under this program and im sure we all recall very recent history we were facing, 150,000 crossings a month. So just to put this in perspective, a certain percentage of illegal crossings are intercepted, processed, and return to mexico while the asylum due process moves forward and weve done our best to accommodate Court Systems to get them access for more rapid resolution. Is that generally a a good description of this program . Your accurate. You have personal knowledge of whats identified as faithbased shelters that are being used . I know the United States government along with iom, division of United Nations is hoping to oversee that process. Funding flowing into help pay for expenses of these facilities. Thank you, sir. Are you familiar with the faithbased shelters . I am familiar speeded generally speaking. Were not trying to speed yes, there are faithbased shelters. Are these generally, do children of god that occupy the shelters, are they generally of hispanic origin . Yes. They speak spanish . Yes. Your Opening Statement thank you for your very thorough Opening Statement, essentially accuses the United States of purposefully sending mpp Illegal Immigrants which we just try and handle the crop press due process, quite a situation down there. Essentially accusing United States of purposefully sending these immigrants into a horrendous situation where based upon your testimony you essentially indicate that those Mexican Government officials and faithbased organization workers that primarily volunteer workers that are occupying the shelters and running them, that they dont care about these mpp folks, that they have no, they have no compassion for them. Is that your position . That these folks down there have no compassion for the mpp . I understand that the government of mexico has said that they are providing a, but from the ground what we see every day, we dont see that aid. So just to clarify, you have the right to your opinion. I would defend your right to have your opinion. I just want to clarify. You seem to be indicating that the United States has set up some system where we are knowingly sending mpp Illegal Immigrants into shelters that are run by folks that dont like them and care for them. In fact, quite hateful towards them. What ive seen, they are not, the individuals sent back to mpp are not being sent back to shelters. They are living in the streets of any 2000 person refugee camp that does not have any shelter for them. The only aid, the only compassion they are getting are from volunteers so that would be an indication just in the interest of time, you are stating the Mexican Government is not living up to its agreement under mpp . I have not seen that promise fulfilled on the ground. One final question. Thank you for your candor. You made courageous statements and his committee cares about these things, but i ask you regarding mpp Illegal Immigrants being knowingly returned to mexico to be tortured, thats quite an accusation. Do you have any proof of that . We have partners on the ground that worked with a young mother and her child that were tortured and released. The young child you are referring to one case out of almost 58,000 . I personally am only aware of the case but i per partners the work throughout the border what mpp is rolled out and my partners can tell dozens and dozens and dozens of stories a very similar conduct. Thank you all for your testimony, madam chairwoman. My time is expired. Thank you mr. Higgins. The chair recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from mississippi, mr. Thompson. Thank you very much. Those of us who have been in the area where the return remain in mexico policy is being implemented have real questions about the health and safety and sanitary conditions of people who are there. I dont think those standards are the standards that we hold dear as americans in this country. And i think our concern more than anything else is when you implement a policy that lowers your standard as a country, then that is changing the values of who we are as a country. So when you put the burden on changing the policy in terms of returning people to mexico in a dangerous situation, thats not who we are as a country. And i think the more important part for us is why change a policy that put people at risk . Thats one of the reasons we are here today. We heard from two attorneys, a doctor and a practitioner that some of those policies we put in place have, in fact, changed the lives of the people who have coming to this country seeking asylum. And as somebody whos ancestors came to this country as slaves who absolutely mistreated, i think i have a sensitivity, and some others here, that we dont want our country to ever be part to anything that mistreat people. So the goal of why we are here today is to make sure that the American Government does immigration policies, that we still see people as human beings. We are a nation of laws. We have values that we have to uphold. And so thats why were here. Thats why consummated the chairwoman by having the courage to hold a hearing like this its a tough situation. Im a grandfather. The last thing i would want is for somebody to mistreat my grandchildren, just because they dont look like them. I dont want that. I voted for the Affordable Care act because i think in america everybody ought to have an opportunity if they are sick to go to the doctor. Those are the American Values that we hold as americans. I think we have to be mindful of that. So with that preface, ms. Pina, do you think our standards of jurisprudence are being upheld with this remain in mexico policy . Thank you for the question. In front of me i have the immigration and nationality act. This is the law passed by congress, and i appreciate the question because i want to bring us back to the legal obligations and jurisprudence which is being circumvented and violated through the mpp protocols. My job is pro bono counsel at the American Bar Association, and i often train nonimmigration attorneys in Immigration Law. In fact, sometimes i have tax attorneys tell me this is very complicated law. The way i describe this law, particularly the specific statutory provisions which are being utilized to implement remain in mexico policy is that such, please bear with me, representative. Imagine section 235 which is the expedited removal statute is a mountain. 244 proceedings is another mountain directly across from it. There is a valley in between. To get out of summary removal proceedings and into full immigration proceedings, 240, there is a narrow bridge. What remain in mexico has done is taken a small pebble of law in section 235 and created a wrecking ball with it. And it is demolished this narrow bridge that included Legal Protections. The credible fear process, any due process been completely annihilated, and mr. Knowles has testified to some of the challenges that the asylum officers are frequently raising. Now, 240 proceedings i heard earlier, you know, the proceedings are expedited instead of several years, its months. What good is a proceeding if its rendered virtually meaningless . There is no lawyer, 2 of mpp respondents have lawyers. One attorney utilized university of texas data and analyze that it mpp did not exist, the number of respondents responded in mpd have attorneys would be over 15,000 people. Theres no meaningful right to an attorney. Theres also no meaningful proceeding, at least in the tech where you can see the judge on a view. You cant understand the judge. You cant effectively communicate with the judge because the interpreter is not simultaneously translating the hearing. There are no Legal Service providers. In san diego i observed in mpp hearing in the brickandmortar courts at san diego, at judge asked the pro se respondents, a father speaking on his behalf of his family, did you receive the notice from the department of Homeland Security which includes a list of Pro Bono Legal survivors . Providers comic season. The father said yes, i that. However, i called all the numbers and numb none of them will provide a service because we are in mexico. So there is effectively no place who can help these individuals. To translate the applications into english, to make sure they can file it with the court. And, of course, all the meanwhile they are trying to go through this proceeding, there subjected to horrendous conditions, dangerous conditions. So thank you for the question. I believe we are circumventing our International Obligations which are codified in u. S. Law. Thank you. Thank you. I yield back, madam chair. Thank you mr. Chairman. Now recognize the gentleman from alabama vista rogers. Thank you, madam chairman. Is it your position the entire country of mexico is dangerous . For Asylum Seekers . Yes. The anticountry . Entire country . I would say that asylumseekers are at a heightened risk by danger in mexico. Why is that . Throughout the journey in mexico as micros are facing these conditions uses returning them to in mpp. So if a migrant were to escape hunters, i think he gave an example of a gang member, gang members who raped a young lady if her husband didnt join a gang. Was that you who gave no. That example was given. Lets migrant was escaping ponderous for that reason and went to mexico city. Your view is it would be endangered in mexico city . I would say there at a heightened risk for being targeted, yes. In mexico city . I would say yes. Well, heres my concern. I understand that you describe the impairments on the northern border as being overcrowded and maybe not as healthy as you like them to be. But i but i find it impossible o believe that the entire country of mexico is dangerous for migrants. The country of mexico is offering a time to all these asylumseekers or escaping guatemala, honduras, venezuela, whatever. You know as well as i do the alone majority of the asylumseekers that reaches the United States are not approved. 87 are not approved. They are seeking economic advantage. I dont blame them but theyre not in danger. And certainly once they get out of honduras and are in mexico they are no longer in danger. We need to be recognizing that people are coming appear for Economic Opportunities and theyve been overwhelming our system. Mr. Knowles, you talked about the interview process. When was the last time you personally contacted an interview of an Asylum Seeker under the mpp program . It should be known that i am almost a fulltime Union Representative so im excuse for my regular duties. I have not personally conducted mpp interviews, although i am in daily contact with those who do. Its been about four years since i have adjudicated personally i asylum cases, but have adjudicated many in the almost 30 years that ive served. In this process though you have not, you have not carried at any interviews in recent years to know the abuses you describe in your statement . Im sorry, could you repeat that . You described abuses in the process during her statement a while ago. Yes. Those are just being related to youth through other individuals. You havent personally conducted those interviews . No, i have not personally thats my point. Mr. Homan, you discover mpp would help deter those who are seeking to exploit loopholes in our immigration system. Can you describe some of the loopholes you think are driving this train . Welcome there are three loopholes when i was still iced director i work with sector nilsen to try to work with congress. The three loopholes by the settlement agreement, and fy 1415 we detain families, about 40 days to see a judge. 90 loss the cases. We put them on airplane at seville. The numbers at the border tragically decreased. Then the ninth circuit said you have told them 20 days days. Asking congress to look at that and let us detain families for like 45 days so they can see a judge. In the Family Residential center, not a joke. The second issue is the asylum process itself. Practically 90 pass the first because thresholds understand the statute, as you said when they get in front of the court 87 lose so theres two big the first interview the special needs to be raised so makes more sense with the judiciary threshold. The last thing would be trafficking predictions protection act because if your child for mexico and to enter the country illegally and ascertained are not a victim of trafficking, you can be returned to mexico immediately. If you are from Central America you cant be returned immediately. You have to hold immigration process which takes years. Asking the children betrayed famous joke for mexico. They had a great intention of identify tracking and preventing it but its been exploited now by the cartels. Finally, ms. Pena, do you know how many immigrants were allowed into this country awaiting their hearings were removed this year alone in absentia . Not familiar with that. 89,000 come just as you. The overwhelming majority of people do not show up for thesee hearings once we get in this country. Thats that a situation we can continue to allow. My time has expired. Thank you for your patience. Thank you mr. Ranking member. The chair to recognize the gentlewoman from new mexico, ms. Thank you, madam chair. Ms. Vela, you testified about the real harm that clients experience of waiting to pursue their legal claims asylum. I have spoken with a local pastor in the district i represent. A Church Provides shelter, they have been targeted in robberies and you dont have the resources to protect these individuals from being targeted why the cartels. My question for you is whether you believe that remain in mexico or mpp can create a disincentive from migrants to legally present themselves to ports of entry to pursue their legal claims for asylum and instead attempt to cross undetected to the United States . Thank you, congresswoman. Yes, i do believe it creates an incentive for people to not get, present themselves at the bridge to request asylum. I know many individuals who, even before mpp was rolled out, were, present himself to the bridge and place on the line that was there prior to the mpp rollout. Those people waited in line, followed the law, wanted to present their case at the bridge and and once mpp was rolled out, they ended up being placed in mpp. And so many individuals see this now that they want to follow the law, you want to do this the right way and the end of getting placed right back in. I dont believe that its more efficient. The ports of entry are very busy places. Many people cross every day. U. S. Citizens, mexican residents and so, it has really congested the ports of untris entries when theyre lining Asylum Seekers up. And so its really caused a lot of delay there at the ports of entry. Thank you. Mr. Knowles, i appreciate your testimony and would like to hear based on your experience representing asylum officers, how has the Broader Mission and morale of the asylum officers been impacted out of mexico or bp. Id like to say historically our morale has been extremely high because people are drawn to the protection work, which is also protection of our country and weve done a very good job and weve received very high marks from every administration except this one. The morale under this administration has plummeted, not because of peoples political views, but because of the way that weve been treated and the way that we have been required to carry out very questionable programs, we have not been consulted, either the union or the work force on the advisability of various methodologies for procedures. Were just told to carry it out, and if we dont like it, we can work somewhere else, that has a big hit on morale. And ive also heard from local Catholic Charities, that the hearings and the new rules and consequent training thats necessary for that, can actually have a negative impact on the docket. What impact have you seen or asylum officers, the policy that is had on their other eior dockets . Im not sure i understand the question. My question is whether you think the increased number of fear hearings and back and forth, as well as the constant changes in rules have impacted other cases, other than asylum case ins the eior dockets. I wouldnt be able to answer that. Eior docket because im just involved in the asylum interviews. Thank you. I want to turn to my last quick moment, you mentioned that only 13 of individuals who receive the fear screenings have received positive determinations. Do you feel like if there was meaningful access to legal representation this number would be different . [inaudible] excuse me, thank you for the question, congresswoman. Yes, were seeing at least one federal judge has enjoined dhs from disallowing attorneys access to those interviews. So just in the past week or so attorneys have started having access. Well see how the numbers change with access to attorneys. I will say as a practical matter its very, very difficult because cbp often doesnt allow owners in these areas. Thank you, my time has expired. Thank you, madam chair. My first question is for mr. Holman. You know, weve talked about these loopholes in previous hearings as well and you have eloquently talked about them just now. And ive said before and i will repeat again, i think these loopholes actually incentivize people to travel thousands of miles, pay cartels huge amounts of money, a lot of the women are getting raped. Weve had evidence how children are being abused by the cartels, and so changing some of these loopholes and clearing them, i think, is will help mitigate the entire problem. I think all of us care about people that are being abused. If somebodys being raped by cartels or children being abused by cartels, of course, none of us up here would want to ignore that, but theres a difference in how we should mitigate the problem and so, mr. Holman, i have six bills that i have introduced and sponsored that would try to clean up these loopholes to stop incentivizing people from coming here and one of them is to raise the credible fear standard for asylum. As youve said, the initial standard is too low, as evidenced by the numbers. I mean, like 85 to 90 of them pass the initial phase, but then, you know, a huge number, what is it, 86, 87 , when they finally go in front of a court dont. So, if we solved that problem with the loopholes, how would that affect this going back to mexico, the mpp protocol. Could we get rid of it, do you think . Well, certainly. It would have an effect on it because if we had a meaningful asylum bar that people could come up and just claim to say two, three key lines to get approval, theyd stop coming. Look, the bottom line, the data is clear, 87 of these people fail to qualify or show up. If they know before they leave their homeland, their life savings, chances of getting approve because they know theyre not escaping fear and persecution of the federal government from race, religion, theyll stop coming. It means something, and a couple of things ill add, ive heard a lot of testimony today, but hearing today that people think the system is rigged against the immigrant now, but the approval rates and denial rates have not changed from fy 14, 15 to today. The fixed rates 14, is a, first Family Detention Center were 85, 87 . The denial rate stays the same. I dont see the correlation. As far as representation, does representation make a difference. You look at the data approval rate from 10 to high 20 in representation rate has not changed beyond 20 even represented by an attorney and thats tracking eior data sheets. Because they dont qualify and representation is not going to change the facts of the case. And this is all available on the Immigration Court data base. Thank you. Another question i have for you mr. Homan, is it fair to say right now is that the immigrants that are seeking asylum that are in mexico waiting, are they able to say that, oh, im afraid to be in mexico and have, you know, get a hearing on that . I think my data says that, yes, they are, fear screenings are an established part of the program and as of october 15th, 2019, usdis completed over 7400 screenings to a assess the return to mexico, people in mexico can actually say im afraid. Interviews in the beginning, entry into the United States, if they cannot be returned to mexico if they establish a clear dang tower return to mexico, that data that theyd be at, you know, in harms way. Thats on the front. They cant be sent back to mexico without determining there is no fear to return to mexico. Thats on front of that. I want to add one thing. Sure. I do think there are some in Central America that qualify for asylum. So im not painting with broad stroke saying its all fraudment. Frau fraud. 87 do not. There are certainly who certainly do fear returning to their homeland, the problem is when youve got 80 rate of denial and fraud, youre backing up the system for the people in this world that are really escaping fear and persecution from their homeland, such as some of the african nations and other nations around the world who really do need our help, and the system is being asylum claims are up over 2,000 percent the last couple of years. Its troubling for the ones that really do need our help. I agree and i want to yield back. I just want to take note, there are a lot of numbers thrown around 87 of people dont show up for their first hearing and doj says that number is 85 of people who do show up. If you look at a track which is the system housed in Syracuse University that more closely tracks eior, they note that do j. Is starting to limit access to the data base. There was just a recent story in the Washington Post that did a long fact check i know we can disagree with the accuracy of the Washington Post, just for future discussion, Washington Post did a long fact check on what the republicans talk about, the 90 noshow rate thats referred to consistently was that number was actually quoted by the former acting secretary mcaleenan in a Senate Judiciary hearing that he ultimately had to walk back. He was referring to a Pilot Program of 7,000 cases. I think for us to have a real conversation we have to get real numbers and i think that republicans and democrats, especially on this committee we should be able to agree with an accurate number and i think maybe we can im hoping that maybe the Ranking Member would agree that we could work on a project that we dont have these back and forth numbers, what were seeing, were saying 85, youre saying 80 and its back and forth and were not getting to any problem solving. Thank you for that. I mean, i thank myself for giving me two minutes to say that. [laughter] the chair now recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from california mr. Correia. Thank you, madam chair and i hope you dont take the two minutes off of my five. Thank you very much. Let me first of all thank the witnesses that are here today. I had a chance in the last year or so to visit some of the refugee camps in tijuana and there are very good faithbased refugee camps providing excellent services. There i saw a doctor from colombia and doctors from all over the world providing for those refugees. And then i went later on when they closed after 9 p. M. , 10 p. M. , a lot of people outside the faithbased refugee camps, theres just not enough room for the services. And so, yes, some services, but not enough and i know the mayor of tijuana is screaming because he is overwhelmed and does not have the resources to address refugees not just from Central America, but from all over the world. That is the challenge at the southern border. I also went and i visited, i talked to the person who is keeping a socalled list, not controlled by the u. S. , but picture this, refugee comes to the border and theyre turned away and they say, you have to sign up for a number so you can be heard. Well, where do i sign up . With that person over there. And i asked that person over there, who do you work for, the u. S. Government . No. Do you work for the mexicans . No. Who do you work for . Just a person that is set up, hes giving out numbers, return when your number is called, give us your cell number, very questionable way of doing business, but none the way thats the way its being taken care of. I had the chance of going to guadalajara, mexico, driving down the street and saw a homeless person, barefoot. I happened to pull over and asked him some question, yeah, im from guatemala. This is as far as ive gotten, i have no food and my point to you is the refugee crisis is also hitting throughout all of mexico, not just the border area. Im going to make it very quick, but, mr. Homan you talked a little about the work permits and you mentioned that these folks come to the u. S. , whatever percentage of people that show up, all they want is a work permit and waiting for the next amnesty. Y i dont think weve passed amnesty in a very long time. Im thinking also, to that rate in mississippi and the chairmans region whereas 4 or 500 individuals were picked up and i got a phone call from one of the representatives of that poultry plant, called me and saying, we need to do something. He said, most of the workers here, all the workers here are refugees and theyre taking jobs the locals will not take. Theyre taking jobs that the children of the refugees will not take. We need to have the jobs back and according to the chairman, i heard him speak hes gone, darn it, but the raid essentially disrupted the whole economy of the area. So my point to you, mr. Homan, would you support some kind of a, not only changing the loopholes which i consider to be not loopholes, but the law, but would you support some kind of an adjustment to the law so that more folks can come to the u. S. And work legally because right now we have this gray market in this country of workers that are contributing to this economy and yet, theyre working in the gray area because they cant get an adjustment status. Okay to your first question about the amnesty question, these family groups started coming across in fy 13 and 14. That was our first surge. That was on the heels of daca, so these family units coming across now, thats your next daca population, these children were brought to the country nofault of their own. To call phi for daca, you have to follow the law, you have to have a job and essentially a clean record, correct . When you throw out Something Like that, when for instance when you Start Talking, lets Start Talking about the amnesty program, the numbers on the border goes up. Its enticement. 200,000 that came across the next two years, i dont know what happens with daca, but this is the next 200,000 that say how about us . Ive got 30 seconds. The second issue, sir, i do understand. If theres a need for labor in this country because Unemployment Rate is so low, then, yeah, i think that congress should legislate something. When i was an ice director i tried to get dairy farm let me say economic factors is are a great motivator, have been 200 years. Will you support a marshal plan to stabilize that region and address the needs of the folks . I think when i ice director kelly brought and met with leadership along with big banks, trying to create opportunities for them in their homeland. I certainly would support creating opportunities for Central Americans in their own country. Madam chair, im out of time. Thank you very much. Thank you, the chair recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from mississippi, mr. Guest. Thank you, madam chairman. First of all, i want to thank you for your years of service to the country. And reading the testimony and written testimony that you prepared. We talked about historically what were seeing today versus years past. Could you expand on that a little bit, please, sir . I think what were seeing today could have been prevented if congress would close the loopholes we asked them to close. And when i worked for secretary jay johnson, i respect greatly. He let us build the whole detention and Family Residential centers to see the judge, 40, 45 days. Most lost their cases and sent home. This worked. Were saying to congress, it worked under the Obama Administration, how come were not doing it now. Congress needs to fix the loophole. If theyre escaping fear and persecution and death, i dont see a problem in being in the Family Residential center with pediatricians, psychologies, three squares a day, six sets of new clothes, access to lawyers, to families. These are open air campus facilities. If it saves a life and thats what ive been testifying the last four times. It didnt just about securing our borders or saving lives, its over 30 of women being raped. If we close the loopholes well save the women from being assaulted and children from dying and bank rolling cartels making millions a day because of the laziness of this country not to the fix the loopholes. And you quote our several statistics there in your written testimony and i think that those are very important and are those statistics that you give, are they supported by your 34 years of other sis to our country . Absolutely. And one caveat, the chairwoman mentioned 87 , i did not 87 didnt show up to the hearing, i said 80 lost their case. Every number i quoted and what i recently quoted came off the Immigration Court website. Theyre open to the public. I printed these last night. So these are Immigration Courts own data. This is not my data, this is from Immigration Judges. Let me ask you about a couple of statistics i pulled from your report and tell me if theyre accurate to the best of your knowledge. 70 of Illegal Immigrants coming in the country now are family units, is that accurate to the best of your recollection and knowledge. 70 to 72 , varies every month. And it says here, as i see that roughly 90 of all family units fail to show up for Court Proceedings . That was i quoted the acting secretary mcaleenan when he said that statement. That number does vary depending when you look at it and what city. Can go from 90 not showing up to 40 not showing up. Depending what court you look at. At that fluctuates. The 90 i quoted using secretary as the chairwoman the secretary. And what about 80 to 95 that do qualify of 85 po 90 that shows up dont qualify. For the three Central American countries that do not they get a meritorious claim. 15, to 20 . And 85, 87 lose their case. And removing 1 saying 2 , its 1. 6 recently, but its been 1. 2 to 1. 6, so, yeah, most do not leave. And thats another enticement. Thats why more people keep coming because families in Central America even though they know most will lose their case, theyre not going home. As i understand from your reporting, 800,000 case backlog in the Immigration Court, is that correct. Its not over a million, 800,000, but i went to the website last night and now over a million. Are these staggering . When i was the director, the backlog was 600,000 and over twoyears, sounds right to me. And you say illegal crossings are down, but were at high numbers beyond last year and this is the sentence i want to highlight, the significant gains made on this issue is because of our president and the men and women of cbp and ice and not because of anyone in this room. First of all, i want to apologize to you that congress has failed the American People. And id ask forbe you to for you to deliver a men of cvp and the men and women of ice, that there are still members of congress that want to solve this problem. Thank you, ill yield back. I agree with that statement and i think every person on this panel on either side of the aisle agrees that every cvp officer should be commended for hard work, i dont think thats an issue and we want to come to a solution, obviously. The chair now recognizes for five minutes, the gentleman from new jersey, mr. Payne. Thank you, madam chair. I have some questions i wanted answered, but i think i want to go to ms. Vela in reference to the questions and comments made by the honorable Ranking Member. When we talk about torture and the incident of torture that you were privy to, i dont think that we can make light of just one. One is one too many. And normally if theres been one, theres been more than one. And it opens the can of worms and a prospect of that becoming a norm. With respect to torture, because i have a family, i have a triplets and a wife and just the prospect of thinking they were subjected to that is horrific. So one is one too many. Can you elaborate any more on that area and issue . Certainly. Thank you, congressman. Yes, it is very prolific in throughout the country of mexico. Particularly at the northern border that cartels will often kidnap individuals and extort family members for money. It is a practice that the u. S. Government has also detailed in other years and so mpp is providing people, very often people will be kidnapped and tortured on their way up and then the u. S. Government will return them for them to be subjected to a second round of kidnapping and torture and its an extremely common occurrence and every person that i know has told me that they live in fear of that happening. Thank you. And dr. Shinbert. How in your view does the mexico play in individuals and families and risk of the type of harm your organization identified as commonly affecting immigrants . Whats the question again . How does the remain in mexico policy place families at the type of harm your organization identified as commonly affecting immigrants . Thank you for the question, representative. So, a number of ways. One, the safety issue of, you know, these people have been through so much, are already at heightened risk of further Mental Health decline or Mental Health kind of effects, hits they can take from being in an unsafe environment or having to live with that fear has numerous sequelae manifesting mentally and physically. Putting them in a situation where they are not able to feed themselves, house themselves, be able to access, you know, things that make a person able to be healthy is especially difficult and obviously has health effects. Theres a litany of things you could talk about, but one of the main things is really just how can they live being unsafe considering what theyve already gone through. Okay. I lost my point. All right. And ideally, what type of medical care, resources would be most important for these people . So starting from a standpoint of putting them in a safe environment where they can address their needs, from the standpoint of just being able to speak about whats gone on, whats happened to them, the state theyre in and their ability to answer questions from the standpoint of having tpsd and from a safe environment and moving into Mental Health evaluations, treatment, medication, as well as physical care, basic primary care, all the things that we hold dear in Public Health and medicine to keep people safe, healthy. Thank you for your time and madam chair, i yield back. Thank you. The chair now recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from texas, mr. Green. Thank you, madam chair. Thank you, madam chair, my microphone seems to be weak today, but i trust that you can hear me. Id like to focus on something that has happened as of late. Theres a organizatin organizat the children thats been around for a hundred years and its been involved in the business its been involved in the business of saving children, thank you very much. This organization has indicated to us that since january of 20 2019 13,000 children have been return returned, that 400 of them terry infants. This is about children. I have a few questions. The first is, and id like for you to raise your hand if you agree with this policy. The first is, do you approve of family separation as a policy . If so, raise your hand. Let the record reflect that no one approves. If you approve of Holding Children in cages, raise your hand. Let the record reflect that no one approves. If you approve of the funding aid to the countries that migrants are fleeing, raise your hand. Let the record reflect that no one approves. There was something called wet foot dry foot. Some of you may be familiar with wet foot dry foot. If youre familiar with what was called the wet foot dry foot policy as related to cubans, would you raise your hand . All the of the members let the record reflect, are familiar with wet foot dry foot. Wet foot dry foot required a person from cuba get one foot on dry land. With one foot on dry land, you could walk right on into florida, usually, and you would be on a pathway to citizenship with one foot on dry land. Im not saying that we have to have a wet foot dry foot policy, but i do believe that we have to have a humane policy that respects children, that does not harm children. This is what save the children is all about. And i would simply ask mr. Let me make sure i have your name correct, sir, i have mr. Homan, sir. What type of policy do you envision that will help childr children, children who are fleeing harms way with their parents usually, or some significant person in their lives, have the opportunity to be in a safe, secure, wholesome environment . Well, first of all, your question about raising your hand. If you would have said if i supported zero tolerance, i would have raised my hand, not family separation, zero tolerance, you seem to confuse those two issues. If you would, im asking to a answer my questions. But since you raised zero tolerance. Are you saying zero tolerance, no one coming to the United States. No, the family with the precedence zero tolerance what youre referring to, family separation, zero tolerance, that was put in place by attorney general jeff sessions, it was zero tolerance to prosecute those who knowingly intentionally violate our law. And in supporting that policy you would support separating the families. If someone is arrested, the child cant go with them. Just like if i was arrested my child couldnt go with me. Youre arguing that no one commit add crime. If you enter illegally you commit add crime. Its not a crime its a civil no, sir, its not. Criminal code title 8 United States, United States code 1325. Illegal entry into the United States. First offense misdemeanor, second offense if youre ordered removed and return, its a felony. I would agree with you at that point. You would separate the children. You have no option, if someone is prosecuted and sent to the u. S. Marshals custody or a local jail, the child cant go with them. It happens every day in the United States. Lets have mr. Knowles response. What would you like to answer, sir. The separation of children based upon policy that was in place. Youre asking the view of our members. Yes. I believe ive said earlier that our members are trained asylum officers, were not Law Enforcement, but we believe that our mandate is to ensure that Asylum Seekers have due process and are treated human lynn during the pendency of their claims and it is wellknown in the law and in the International Conventions that an Asylum Seeker has the right to due process regardless of their manner of entry and they we do not believe that it is correct to separate families or to prosecute individuals who are seeking asylum. They ought to have their asylum cases heard and if they prevail, they should be allowed to remain, if they dont prevail, then there are legal processes for their removal, but we dont support the separation of families under any circumstances. Is there anyone else would like to respond. Im sorry, im sorry, we have three other people, im so sorry. Thank you, madam chair. Chair recognizes the gentle woman from texas, ms. Jackson lee. Madam chair, thank you first of all for holding this hearing and i echo your words that we ought to find a solution and resolution. And echo your words someone who has been lower a honeymooning time and youve been here and we do not quarrel with the men and women in the service of the department. What i do say theyre impacted by untoward policies, which makes it very difficult to do, i think, the duty under the values of this nation. I stated early on that this is a country of immigrants and a country of laws. No one negates the question of law. Im going to raise these questions and pose them to a number of witnesses. The remain in mexico and the port courts are the greatest legally questionable steps in the Trump Administrations antiimmigrant agenda. Ie, the muslim ban, another untoward action, i believe, as relates to immigration policies. Rather than deter Asylum Seekers, these policies promote cruel and Human Rights Violations. Id like to raise that question. My time is short. Raise that with laura. Do they create Human Rights Violations . Yeah, thank you for the question congresswoman. Particularly when it comes to issues regarding the tent courts that you raised. Attorneys have very limited restricted access to these tent courts. Asylum seekers who are appearing in the tent courts do not have access to simultaneous interpretations so they quite often have no idea what is going on in these proceedings. The aba has long believed and promoted access to inperson interpreters for proceedings, and especially when it pertains to noncitizens and any Video Conferencing for noncitizens should be done with their consent, thank you. I thank you. Ms. Vela, would you comment on the idea of creating cruel and Human Rights Violations . Yes, congresswoman. From everything that we see on the ground. We work in a 2000 person encampment at the foot of the gateway bridge thats across from brownsville. Theres not enough food. Theres no running water, until recently immigrants had to get into the rio grande to wash their clothes and their children. We see this camp growing at an alarming rate. Weve only had mpp since august and its grown three or four fold. Youre not arguing against the country having Immigration Laws. Youre saying mpp program is creating an atmosphere of cruelty. Yes krcongresswoman, theres no question that this policy eroded everybodys access to asylum, access to a safe place to seek asylum and safety while they await their court date. You cant see this, but im looking at a visual of squalor that is probably not even in the places where theyve come from, and that is tents and tarps. Have you all seen this on the other side of the border . Yes, congresswoman. That is i cant see the photo, but certainly tents and tarps for 2000 and plus people is what we work with every day. And i see a person walking with a face mask and i know you cant see it and clothes hanging over, so let me quickly go to the doctor. By forcing Asylum Seekers months in mexico city where groups are highly active. The Trump Administration subjecting men and women and children to greater risk of kidnapping of assault and extortion which as a physician also impacts the quality of life of these individuals. Doctor, if you would . Doctor . Im sorry, ill calling you doctor, yes, doctor, did you hear the question . Okay. Let me just go on. Through dhs a providing Asylum Seekers with incomplete and inaccurate paper work including wrong addresses or dates for hearings which further complicates matters and could lead to peoples claims rejected through nofault of their own. Could one of the lawyers answer that question. Doctor, i withas asking could squalid conditions increase risk of kidnapping and health. Let me ask the question about the inaccurate paper work that one of the lawyers would respond to that and maybe you could respond to the other question, thank you. Thank you, congresswoman. The notice to appear with charging documents issued by the department of Homeland Security have several legal inefficiencies. Insufficiencies, including the address so individuals cannot get Proper Service of notice to appear because the address is incorrect. The address is shelters theyve never been to. In addition to the ntas are incomplete, there are no boxes checked which are required which establish how the individual entered the United States. Moreover, theres manufactured charges. So individuals who entered between points of entry are being charged as removable as arriving aliens. That is a Legal Section that is and moreover, courts are being issued on these notices to appear, for example, where we practice in south texas the court where individuals are supposed to appear, thats actually incorrect. They appear in brownsville. Thank you. Doctor. Yeah, real quick, i participated in a forensic evaluation of a patient just last week, shes in her house, shes fleeing abuse, rape, and she is afraid to leave that place shes renting. She leaves maybe once a week to get groceries, sitting there with her two kids. Can you imagine the kind of psychological harm thats causing to her because she knows through family that have sent her a message that the perpetrators have sent somebody after her to tijuana. I thank the chair and thank you all. I just want to put into the record ask unanimous consent, the conditions that are being the conditions that exist pursuant to the mpp program on the other side of the border and the doctors comments of the fear of death because cars are sending people after the people fleeing, evidence is that theyre being stalled on the asylum process. It will be received into the record. The chair now recognizes the gentle woman from california for five minutes. Thank you, madam chair. Let me start by echoing comments from my colleagues that the outrage that this should be happening, over the return of migrants into dangerous places. Ms. Vela, i understand youve visited some of the facilities. Out of the six locations, i am mr am implementing the policy. And one is in the do not travel location. I understand youve been there. Can you describe the danger of crime and migrants, encampments in this area are at risk of being subjected to . The cities were the last cities to get roll out of mp pchpmpp. And she was horrified when she heard that people would be moved. And particularly, i dont work there personally, but advocates on the ground there told me that people have walked out of mexican migration and literally been kidnapped on the doorstep of mexican migration offices. Individuals in the early days were moved to a city before they decided to have tent courts about an hour away. There are people still today that are terrified to make the hour journey south to their court hearings. They dont know what to do. Theyve heard so many stories of being being kidnapped, again, possibly right out front of a door of a shelter that they stayed there to try to work through their case. They have no way to get even an hour down the border. A state asked the government to stop sending people there because it had no way to get people to matamoros. Its horrifying when you read so many accounts of whats happening and in so many instances you have officials, mexican officials turning people over to the cartels and whats happening to them and the danger is outrageous. It feels as though our government is saying, well, as long as it doesnt happen on our land. As long as it doesnt happen here, its okay. Lets take them back to wherever we want to take them back to, and were just ignoring the harms. When we have secretary mcaleenan come in, its clear that the ideas didnt bother to assess any type of the risk and the harm that would be done to migrants if they were sending them back to level 4. Its equivalent of sending them back to syria. Ms. Pena, i know you provide lawyers and services to people. Can you tell us a little bit, have you represented migrants in merit hearings . Yes, thank you for the question, congresswoman, and i fuelly have a merit scheduled for this friday. If i may explain some of the challenges ive faced in representing individuals placed into mpp proceedings. To find my client, first of all, i participated in a volunteer asylum workshop. Were in the hot sun in the plaza just beyond the port of entry. Volunteers attorneys held work shops to screen clients. Thats how i met my client. I also filed a motion with an immigration judge to ask him, please allow my client to come into this multimillion dollar tent court a couple of days before the hearing so we can prepare in a safe environment. That judge denied my motion based on a lack of jurisdiction because dhs controls the tent court facility. Although i had this will be my first merit, local attorneys who have won cases, imagine winning your asylum case and having your client sent back to mexico after winning. It causes attorneys to go to extreme measures to protect their clients, even after winning their proceedings, after having meritorious claims to not be sent back to dangerous situations, its horrendous. Thank you. As somebody who actually long ago when i practiced law, helped a woman and child in an asylum case. A lot of work goes into it. A lot of prep and not having access to your client prevents you from doing that very necessary preparation and we know, weve seen the statistics from people who have access to council and legal representation, having much higher ability to have a successful claim and so, it feels as though this is just another attempt to make sure that people dont have access, dont have that ability so that can succeed because this administration is doing everything it can to end Legal Immigration and asylum is Legal Immigration. Thank you all for your work and what youre doing and well continue to highlight the horrors of the program. Ill yield back. Thank you, recognizing for five minutes the gentle woman from texas. Madam chair, thank you for having this hearing. This is so critical so that the American Public understand whats happening at the hands of the American Government. And thank you for allowing me the opportunity to address our panel and ask questions. And thank you for coming to the border and coming to el paso. You and many of your distinguished colleagues, our distinguished colleagues have made the journey so you can see for yourself what is happening through your own eyes in order to help change what is an abhorrent policy. To our panelists, thank you for being here today. I i cannot tell you how profoundly moving your testimony was earlier and i cant imagine anyone listening to your testimony. Listening to whats happening at the hands of the American Government and believing that this policy should continue. This antiamerican, deeply harmful policy. I know full well about mpp because i remember el paso, texas and our lawyers our advocates and Community Members unfortunately had to bear witness whats happening at the hands of the American Government. Almost 20,000 vulnerable lives have been pushed back either through metering or through mpp. What weve seen happen ive described as a new eco system of criminal activity created by this policy on the other side of our ports of entry. An eco system where the American Governments policy is literally sending vulnerable migrants into the hand of cartels, so that cartels can extort money after theyve kidnapped people. Weve had lawyers tell us about clients who have been raped multiple times. Weve had lawyers tell us about clients who have disappeared altogether. People who are in the legal asylum process. These are people who have been denied due process and indeed, have put have been put in danger. Earlier one of our colleagues expressed about the department of Homeland Security personnel not being here today. I have, madam chair, sat through hearings where we had dhs leadership at the highest levels. Essentially deny, Tell Congress that none of this is happening. And so, its important to hear from the people who are here to speak the truth and tell us what is happening. Mr. Knowles, is there any way that dhs leadership at the highest levels, at the secretary level, is there any way that they would not know that these atrocities are happening in the mexican cities where were sending back migrants . I cant imagine how they could not know. Our own agency uscis has a country of condition, country of Origin Research unit. Theyve produced many reports documenting the conditions in the northern triangle and in mexico. I believe there was there have been many investigations by the department of those conditions and certainly these are wellknown. Thank you, sir. Do you think there is and ms. Vela, do you think theres any way that the secretary of the department of Homeland Security or anyone in leadership, or in the white house, could be unaware of these atrocities . I thank you for the question. A number of organizations have come down to the border in south texas and have escalated their request for one example for access to the tent court and they have been denied that access at the highest levels. And so, as we understand it, it is at the highest levels that these directives are coming from. Yeah, we work with our clients to present them to cvp officials at the bridge when people are erroneously put in mpp, or developed a condition that makes them extremely vulnerable in mexico, weve raised that with port directors and people higher up and theres little that gets back. This is why im introduced hr, the asylum protect action to defund mpp. Madam chair, id like to introduce, like to ask for unanimous consent for three articles, one by l. A. Times, news, and a series of stories on npr detailing the heinous occurrences happening at the hands of the American Government. They will be accepted into the record. And then just a further show of hands, theres been so much publicity around the atrocities of mpp. Theres absolutely no way that the highest levels of dhs leadership could be unaware of whats happening. Since all of this has blown wide open. Have you seen any improvement to the government reversing any of what its done. Let the reflect record reflect. I yield back. Id like to go to mr. Green for clarification. Thank you, madam chair, i promise to be terse. Mr. Homan brought us to the heart of the problem and that is that this administration concludes that Asylum Seekers are criminals. They are not criminals, its know the a crime to seek asylum in the United States of america. And when you treat them as criminals, somehow you conclude that its okay to lock their children up in cages. But they are not criminals. We have a criminal mentality as it relates to the people coming to this country from south of the border and that is what we have to confront. Thats the gravement of this circumstance, criminal mentality for those people seeking asylum. I yield back. Can i respond . His is just a clarification. Well, that clarification is inaccurate. I believe the clarification the gentleman was making was that he was not claiming that claiming asylum not that not crossing the border was not criminal, but claiming asylum was not criminal. I want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony and the witnesses for their testimony, and ask to put in the record statements of support including the american Immigration Lawyers association, American Immigration council. Childrens defense fund and members international. And members of committees may have additional questions in writing and we ask you answer expeditiously. Id like to admit the statistics referenced and brief followup question. They will be admitted into the record as well as a two page document im holding, a track immigration document that contains the most recent information regarding appearances by people appearing at the border. Yes, mr. Ranking member. Thank you, madam chairwoman. Ms. Vela, youve been asked many questions today. Youve sat there with poise and dignity and answered to the best of your ability. I commend you and the panelists that join you today, brother of thin blue line, thank you for being here today. We all struggle to face the challenge and the chairwoman called this hearing and that testimony was offered based upon various opinions. Its our job to consider these opinions with respect for each other, with a common goal of finding some righteous solution. I would like to point out that its been stated several times that the state department has indicated that two dangerous to travel classification for some of the areas in northern mexico. Obviously, these are some of the areas where these Illegal Immigrants are being sent while they await processing through the asylum claim. Let me just state that its indicated that the alternative is to is send them into the interior of the United States, but mr. Homan has clarified what happens there. A lot of those folks just disappear and theyre going to stay here. Let me share with america and with all of us that the following cities have something in common, st. Louis, detroit, memphis, milwaukee, baltimore, oakland, kansas city, all of these cities have something in comm common, the citizens therein are more likely to be subject to Violent Crime than the citizens of mexico city. Crime stats for mexico city are about the same as washington d. C. So its intellectually unsound to indicate to the American People that just generally speaking were placing these immigrants in some greater harms way by having them await their process and in mexico. Madam chair, i thank you so much for holding this hearing and i think weve received excellent testimony today and i yield back. Mr. Ranking member, thank you so much for that and your comments and what i can do is assure everyone here were going to continue to have hearings about what is going on at the border because we have to honor the people who are sitting here, all five of you, bearing witness to what is happening there, and we have to hold true to our Democratic Values as to who we are as a country, and thats what these hearings are about, transparency and accountability. I want to thank all of the witnesses so very much for their testimony here. Its a long hearing, you can tell by the number of members who showed up how important this issue is so i want to thank you all for participating. Without objection, the record will be open for ten days, hearing no further business, the subcommittee stands adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] the house will be in order. For 40 years cspan has been providing america unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy events from washington d. C. And around the country so you can make up your own mind. Cspan is brought to you by your local salt or cable provider. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Government. Cspan2 takes you live to the senate floor. Lawmakers voting on the house passed 2020 spending legislation, the funds the federal government passed at tonights midnight deadline to the 20th to avert a shutdown. Votes are expected at 11 a. M. Eastern. They and plan to work on the nomination to the next energy secretary. Live coverage of the senate right here on cspan2. The president pro tempore the senate will come to order. The chaplain, dr. Barry black, will open the senate with prayer. The chaplain let us pray. God, the fountain of every blessing, in this thanksgiving on