Transcripts For CSPAN2 Hearing On Recreational Use Of Federal Lands 20240713

So, we are here to talk about good things, recreation and im going to keep my, to brief because i know colleagues are very engaged in a couple of you want to make opening comments as well but we have three pieces this morning were considering, 1665 which is simple fight Outdoor Access for recreation act, senator heinrich calls at the sort act, i like the acronym there. In 1723, the ski area retention act from senator gardner, we all love skiing. I cant wait. 1967, the recreation. This hearing is building off one that we held in march where we focus in improving access and permitting to meet the increasing demands to provide highquality recreation opportunities on our land. Proposals that were looking at today are a good start in addressing those issues. Senator heinrich, white and have put forward legislation to streamline and simple by the system to process permits for our outfitter guide and nonprofit for those who operate across the spectrum and federal lien. Senator gardner will facilitate for infrastructure to meet the demands for four season recreation and ski areas the operated internation force. All of these majors recognize the Important Role that recreation is playing in our economy. According to the bureau of economic analysis, and 2016 anaconda for twopoint to percent of gdp for about 427 billion. This includes not only impact sectors like outfitting, but all of the associated impacts as well, lodging, transportation, restaurants. It has a big impact from recreation unit 2018 we will come about 1. 17 million cruciate visitors and next year were up to 1. 3 in the state of 720,000 people. We certainly feel the impact is exciting but sometimes a little overwhelming and as the Visitor Center you have hundreds of people who want to get in to the facility every day but the facility is designed to hold a fraction of that for service and they need a master plan to respond to the increased visitation but it is a challenge. I was with senator lee this past friday and we had an opportunity to go to the National Park to see the pressures everybody wants to get into the park but how do we accommodate, how do we facilitate. Our outfitters and guides are trained to respond to growing good man in the backcountry ski guide going to new areas in the blm, there being delayed very lengthy for Environmental Review process and the agency to process, these are all things that we hear about. What were trying to do is ensure to increasing act and i appreciate the colleagues on these very important bills. Im going to turn to senator mentioned before a introducer panel and another members would like to make introductions. If i can elect to defer to senator wyden. Thank you, senator mentioned in chairman county, not only do i want to thank you for your courtesy but i also very much appreciate on the recreation issue, the work we do in a bipartisan way and i think we understand every member particularly, we understand the recreation efforts are very compatible and are clearly a boost both for our quality of life in the west and for our economy in a chance to bring americans together for better health. I appreciate this, my bill with congressman bishop, r r recreation is basically one that updates the policies from yesteryear because in yesteryear recreation was not the big economic recreation that solid popout. Point number two, he knows a lot about recreation, he was responsible for the guide permits with the most days and the state of oregon and also helped create an organ state office of Outdoor Recreation. So im going to go back and forth and ive had the courtesy of the chair and the Ranking Member and my colleagues are really in the Gold Standard when you hear from my fellow oregonians. Last but am not interested in starting a controversy but i want to make sure he talks of the chair in the vice chair in the days ahead. Colleagues, we all know because we read the paper about the wildfires that are ravaging the west. There are a host of issues that we will have to tackle and i just want to put two on the board. One is Climate Change and i think there are ways we can work collaboratively on that in the second is collaboration which is what we try to stress on the ground and thats what borrowing is about an stewardship has been all about and if we want to have colleagues, wonderful places to recreate we will have to do something to get an update of the policies. Madam chair in the vice chair, i look forward to working with you on both and ill be back and forth. Thank you monitor. Senator mansion. I want to thank all of you for being here today. I commend the sponsors for explain innovative ways to improve Outdoor Recreation and businesses that support it. After recreation has been a powerful economic driver in states including West Virginia is been no exception. Ive seen firsthand how the economy has brought West Virginia. After recreation in my state generate 2 of her growth under Gross Domestic Product of 22000 jobs. And 3 of the workforce is not employed in the recreational sector earning over 688 million in salaries. This is a topic is near and dear to my heart as i know everybody here. As her Committee Reviews legislation for recreation i believe we must ensure the idea being discussed will grow the economys communities in all three bills attempt to do that and will have impacts, i believe in the states not only being introduced but for all of us especially in West Virginia. Senators bill would provide assistance to the federal lands end why we will hear from mr. Maguire about how this will impact, i want to mention we have two skiers in West Virginia, that use force service plan and a third area that was located this year end now for sale. I look forward to the discussion about ways we can be better parties of the industry. The appropriate use of revenue and a fair return for the taxpayers. We also will discuss the bill sponsored by senator heinrich and capital. That provides assistant of backpacking trips on federal land. West virginia was home to the First National Recreation Area in the United States in 1965. Its a National Recreation area. These bills facilitate peoples ability to enjoy the public lands will supporting jobs in the local economy sprayed following this hearing chairman murkowski and i will get to work on a recreation package to report this committee. The heart and soul of the package will be the same as a bills today. Too not only make it easier for people to enjoy but also grow businesses coming from alaskan West Virginia we have firsthand experience of importance of recreation interstate and with that basis we developed for inclusion, for example one of the areas ive explored is how we can better supports gateway communities. Those of the communities that are next to the recreation that i mentioned were visitors eat, sleep before or after. Most of them testify before a Committee Earlier this year about how difficult it was to establish businesses in these communities. The trail system host 50000 annually but 57 or nonWest Virginia. Meaning they need hotels to stay in restaurants to eat. Unfortunately West Virginia continues to be a difficult established inventory that needed to accommodate increased visitation in the rural areas. I look forward to working with my colleagues on this and many other ideas with a bipartisan recreation passage in the coming weeks with that i want to think the witnesses and chairman thank you. Thank you, senator gardner i know you wanted to briefly speak about your bill, and i know you want to make introduction and senator heinrich you have a bill appear. Were never going to get to these guys. I just want to hear from her witnesses. Thank you, madam to be very quick. Im pleased to have before the committee Brenda Maguire who is Vice President for Public Affairs at the resorts testifying in behalf of the National Ski Area this morning. This resort in colorado or its namesake was started in 1962 by veterans of the Mountain Division of world war ii. Since then the resort has grown into a Success Story spanning 37 sku areas across 37 countries all linked together by the industry epic season pass Available Online around the country. It allows skiers and riders to access destination at a great value. The native colorado and former instructor in chair murkowski can attest to a pretty great guy and thank you very much to be here today and i think you have 86 acres open accused. Amazing. Great thinking. Thank you very much madame chair im pleased to help you welcome aaron into her committee as a witness, haner showed hometown of casper wyoming in the love and Natural Resources that wyoming has to offer. He spent more than a decade with the National Outdoor Leadership School where hes been extraordinary relating to outdoor education, efficient responsible use of public land and permitting when we think about publicly and in the history, Teddy Roosevelt carried a gun to all of them saw the land and they all arrived at the same collusion, we need to preserve and protect and pass on the resources and allow others to enjoy. I had many conversations about ways to avoid a process that persuades public use of public land. Wyoming relies on recreation and tourism is a key component of our state economy, much of the recreation occurs on public Land Management federal agencies. Its important we combine thoughtful evaluation of the impact will be effective and efficient permitting process that encourages Public Access to magnificent landscapes. I look forward to your expertise that you share with the committee and i want to congratulate you, monday you will start with american outdoors as the executive director, big news and i look forward to work with you in your new role. Thank you all. Most of you have been introduced but i will provide my welcome to each of you, we will start off the discussion this morning with an individual who has been before the committee we certainly had many dealings with chris who is a deputy chief of the forced in the u. S. For service in chris we think you for the many, many efforts that you have made and i know youre sending a lot of attention and time on the issues but thank you for your leadership. Nikki is with the committee this morning to acting assistant director for Community Partnerships at the blm and we thank you for being here this morning and look forward to your comments Brenda Maguire has been introduced and welcomed, it is always good to have somebody that can be against speaking with a firsthand relationship to the industry he represents and he certainly does and we welcome you to the committee. Lee davis has been introduced by senator wyden. Were pleased youre with us from oregon. Welcome to the committee and to mr. Aaron bannon. We appreciate what you will provide and we ask you keep your comments to about five minutes. Your full statement will be included as part of the record and will have an opportunity for questions after words. Im going to excuse myself to introduce an amendment and another committee and ill be back in five but we will lead off the committee with mr. French. Thank you. Thank you very much madame chair, vice chair and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about our views on these three bills, recreation, the Outdoor Recreation act in the ski area ski retention act. When i glanced back on my 30 years that ive been with the Forest Service i started as a technician. Now as i sit here and think about my role that i achieved, i realize i voice had a passion for connecting people to the recreational opportunities on a public land and its where i take my family. I know when they closed it was hard to see that happen and they use many of the Services Provided by our outfitter guides. When i look at this i think that anything that we can do to improve our ability to survive Recreation Community and enhance those experiences connecting folks to the publicly and, thats a good day. After recreation is a significant use of a four system per the number recreation to the national for system rose from 143 million in 2009 and ten years later that was at 150 million. Recreation plan makes more private sector jobs than any other for Service Program and provides the single largest stimulus for gateway communities. Recreation contributes more than 11 billion to americas Gross Domestic Product and supports more than 480,000 jobs and the gateway in rural communities. After recreation opportunities and amenities are consistently ranked as one of the primary reasons people move to rural towns and a leading contributor to local communities. For service we minister more than 30000 recreation special use operated stations for activity that generate 2 billion to the holders. The four Service Managers 122 secur122ski areas and 8000 outfd guide permits. These permits and private sector professionals, Educational Institution that lead a wide range of activities and national for system lands whether white river rafting, downhill skiing, horseback riding, big game hunting or Youth Education trips or tours. Many of activities represent the first introduction that many folks have to the outdoors in the outfitter guide and employee are Small Businesses that generate jobs. We also managed nearly 159,000 miles of trails, the largest Trail Network in the nation. We host over 60 of the country ski Area Business and were proud of thousands of campsites in areas as well as opportunities for boating, fishing, hunting and hiking. Usda supports overall goals to improve recreational access and national for system lands. The recreation safe act in the store act will complement Agency Efforts to stream myanmar process, reduce inefficiencies and provide a higher level of Customer Service to republic and value partners. This key area will increase the valuable resources to improve the ministration in the experience. Finally, after recreation provides millions of americans for Job Opportunities to connect with land and heritage. Usda for service in the vital link in enormously vice opportunity to work to improve lives and livelihood of americans throughout the wreck creation. I think you to the committee for the opportunity to provide testimony and i look forward to working together on the important bills. Thank you mr. French. Good morning. I am nikki, acting assistant director for National Conservation lands end Community Partnerships. At the bureau of foreign management. Thank you for inviting me here today to testify on as 1967, the recreation act and s1665 the outdoor act recreation act or store act. These bills which amend the federal Land Recreation enhancement act game to improve the efficiency and the cost for ministry recreation permits. They also authorize single joint special permits for multiagency trips. The department supports the goals of both of these bills. Federal land mage and schmidt agencies oversee about 640 million acres including public Land Management of the blm. These lands host a remarkable variety recreational opportunities. Secretary bernhardt is improving recreational access to public land and is issued a number of orders and support of this. For example, 3373 promotes improved access to quick land and under this policy the bom has acquired new lands such as 13000 acres to improve access to the Blackfoot River in montana and the 3500 acres to improve access to the wilderness area in new mexico. Much of the changes proposed in the bull deal with special recreation permits and associated fees. Fees collected for each permit allow the federal government to implement projects that benefit visitors such as recreational sites. The blm issues over 1000 of these recreation permits a year end oversees about 4600 recreation permits at any one time. Land. We believe these bills have the potential to address longstanding challenges and we look forward to working with the sponsors and the committee to address a number of technical issues. Both bills authorize agencies to issue joint recreational permits for trips across the agency boundaries of more than one management agency. When a single joint recreation permit is proposed, the bull authorized the designation of a lead agency for the permit. The bills authorize agencies to delegate the respective Enforcement Authority to the lead agency. The department has been pursuing efforts to make recreation permitting easier and any effort to improve the process. Americans should be able to access and enjoy the public lands with as much ease as possible. The department supports the goals of these provisions and would like to continue to work with the sponsors on certain modifications. The bill also provides various authorities for agencies to improve the process such as expanded use of categorical exclusion and allowing permittees to return unused service days. The department strongly supports these predictions. Other provisions of the bill such as online an email notification of opportunities and exemption of the 50 hours of work from Cost Recovery we select the goals of the department in support and appreciate the opportunity to continue to working with the sponsors in the committee. Lastly the recreation includes provision regarding retailing of recreational passes and encouraging veterans and Service Members to wreck create on public land and expanding the use of volunteers. The department supports these provisions. In conclusion, were grateful that the committee is considering legislation to make it easier for americans to enjoy the public land. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today, i will be happy to answer any questions you may have. You may begin. Good morning thank you for the nice introduction. Ranking member mansion and members of the committee they stand for the opportunity to be here in support of s1723 the recreational retention act of 2019. On behalf of that resort i would also like to think senator biden and bennett and widen further leadership in introducing the bull and Community Members were also cortez. Nsa has 325 members, 122 of which operate on the national for system. The resort my company that operates 37 ski areas including iconic resorts bail mountain in colorado, stevens pass in washington, heavenly and tahoe and massimo and vermont. It goes east as well. That would retain a percentage of ski area permits enforced in which they were generated. Those funds will be retained to the for service has the capacity to minister ski area permits and review ski areas infrastructure projects. Ski areas work in partnership with the u. S. For service to deliver after recreation experience that is unmasked in the world. This Publicprivate Partnership dates back to 1940s and has a long history of providing benefits to all americans through health and fitness and appreciation of our National Environment and providing strong returned to the u. S. Government through the fees through the land. Over the past ten years nationwide has averaged over 55 million visits annually, 60 occur on for Service Public land. In total the industry create 62 billion and force related revenue, supports a million jobs and generates 5 billion in annual retail sales. Ski areas are the largest employer for the communities in which they operate. They pay for all onsite improvements including roads, parking lots, chairlifts as well as a process required to review. The ability for ski areas to move forward as a business is linked to the most important partner, the u. S. For service in their capacity to review proposals and render dishes and sprayed the retention is outlined in the bill and important tool to boost Agency Capacity to review ski area proposals. This legislation would allow skiers to invest more and sooner and muchneeded infrastructure. Retaining these are necessary because funding and staffing of a forced service rec Program Since the 20 below the 2010 levels. Meanwhile visitation has long grown increasingly 30 of the time period. The four Services Data shows 85 of his letters to the National Forest are seeking recreation opportunities. Of the ten most visited force nationwide, nine host ski areas in the visitation drives local economies. Ski areas are less likely to receive timely review for proposals when the operating at low capacity. Ski areas have experienced pauses where proposals cannot be accepted by the agency. Some force have seen a lack of bandwidth that allows them to only review one project at a time, when projects are delayed in time is uncertain, ski areas find it harder to invest significant resources. Ski areas are lice likely or slower to operate chairlifts, agreed to energy snowmaking systems and transition to foresees the model capable and jobs in the economy all year. This uncertainty has unfortunately decreased investments. Dedicating a percentage of the nearly 40 million of fees paid by ski areas will unlock new investment opportunities. Since 2010 skiers operated on for service lanes have experienced good Revenue Growth in the winter and up over 100 from the summer activities thanks to the bill this committee and Congress Passed in 2011 the summer activity bill. There is tremendous interest in our industry to harness the momentum and build infrastructure necessary to support future growth. We are your support s1723 and thank you for the opportunity to be here. Thank you. Mr. Davis welcome. Thank you Ranking Member and members of the committee. The members here today are very aware of the details in the bills and the issues facing us in the numbers and impacts that recreation brings trichotomy and people. I have been waiting for this day for seven years so i decided you can read my written testimony and today also you some stories. Seven years ago i was in a meeting in portland, oregon with people behind me and is trying to figure out how to get more permits for groups with kids outside, i was called because of senator whiting mentioned, at the time i was in the state of oregon and people were pretty regularly calling me, Small Business owners saying how do i get a permit, and asked me too book a permit and is there any way they can work with us or can they buy them out so they could do the things they wanted to do and they bring up that meeting because what we ended up doing was deciding we had to create a Training Program to teach them how to navigate the permit process. And we both those Training Programs and had to stop them within a year because people were so angry by the end of the training, we teach them all the processes and procedures and have the force. Com and tell them exactly what you need to do stepbystep and they would hear there was a 23 year mark on the National Forest in the permit stuff was not available that day to help them with their request. So we had to stop the training. Its kind of ridiculous. Permanent application i would submit every year is 76 pages long, we had to tell them exactly where all 14000 participants were going to be every single year, or the date of gestation because of weather or different issues we had to call them and notify them, the other thing we met a philanthropist from seattle doug walker was a person that explained to me the biggest facing is that her kids are bonding with the outdoors. More than anything also the future voters and workers and constituency to understand the value of place, they will not vote to protect it. So i think those are some real reasons why we need to work on permit reform. Next they want to talk about recreational areas. Most are where we have great tools like the rivers active monuments to protect ultra assets in our country. But to my knowledge we dont have great tools to protect were the primary value is recreation and that some folks are afraid of creating a new designation because it might be misused but i think even on halloween we dont need to be afraid of that because of you guys. In other words each new area would have to go through congress and the devils in the details on these. Theres nothing in the provision that prohibits the interchange between recreational uses and resource extraction, the dean where i work often likes to talk about trails in Northern Europe where you can Mountain Bike by wineries and farms and sawmills in their recreational trails that integrate resource extraction and celebrate all the great uses that are publicly owned for people in our economy. That is possible. Youve heard in some previous hearings on this that people have had to go outside the country just to operate because its so hard to operate in this country, does rafting guide and organ that does not good leads trips in africa and nepal because its easier and oregon washington and ive spent years taking people to france because it was easier for me too fly 15 or 20 people to france then to get them to alaska, washington oregon, my experience in the outdoors was arctic National Parks. And i wouldve loved to take in those people there but i cannot do it. The last thing is making recreational party. I laid out a series of strategies that when i look at and involve International Strategy for the economy forward, for doctor recreation economy is the future and certainly these jobs will be with us forever but i think we need to invest in this economy the way we invested in the 20 century and infrastructure. Currently my role in working on crating pathways on the economy and degree programs eventually that will just the technical labor challenges and leadership level challenges that all industries face and our industry. Through my work i know the industry does back these bills, i work closely with the roundtable and represent 50000 companies in america and they support these bills. This is not just me in education saying this is important, this is industry. And i think your area where that my work is about bringing it together, the entire recreational economy to hunt and fish to cross divides. We have a real opportunity to bring people together in a different way. The last thing all say, i think future versions of highquality life in america include Outdoor Recreation at your doorstep, i have a joke that my kid can still draw a better picture of what highquality of life in the 50s than what he could tell you 20 years from now. But we do no places like bin organ are because of that. And i think if we can reform a permit process and have dedicated agency staff that are measured by acri recreational fd actuals of National Areas to tell them they need to plan around that we can move on this economy. Thank you mr. Davis. Mr. Bannon welcome. Thank you very much and members of the committee for holding this very important hearing. Were in critical work to address the persistent challenges that are constraining, guided after recreation experiences and we are very grateful for your diligence. This weekend representing knowles the national after little skeptical, Nonprofit Institution which is educated 300,000 students in the 55 year history. Next week all began they been working handinhand on the legislation for years simplifying Outdoor Access for recreation act in a positive development for both of our organizations to have it on our bill today. The act is about finding legislative solutions for commonsense problems. The rulemaking process these agencies have tried to reform the varying degrees of success. In the best cases that are able to navigate the process successfully. In many cases these are ministry to perceive too many obstacles in the practicing of the modification is near impossible. At the capacity analysis we can make additional days available. If the review team is not available they will not have the resources to provide environmental analysis. Those interest take priority over recreation permitting. Fundamentally agencies need to adopt processes to streamline reviews in a power line officers to be more responsive to the needs of the permittees. It would restore reasonable flexibility in permitting providing more options but their hands are tied. To string my two days. Traditionally for 15 years we ran a 12 day course through 72 stretch of river and training our instructors to kayak and run the river. As administrators retire and new people came to the place they were not quickly replaced the forest was constrained and permits and asked to combine the permits to what everybody else was doing in the river. That changed our ability to educators to have two days of clinics and have to clinics. Its stressful. Its partly instructors and hard on the students in a rewarding experience but we would welcome the flexibly. Theyre connecting more people the landscaped in fact, theyre raising the cost of entry. For programs nonprofit alike have no choice to the rising cost of running their business by Cost Recovery fees or layering the gross fees and we are constraining our businesses and for increasing cost and decreasing fncs linking our scholarship dollars to goes far as exist, the scholarship dollars are targeting hundreds of atrisk use every year providing the experience. We welcome an opportunity to free those dollars up and make a more efficient so we can run more for the students. Finally the Cost Recovery were in agency has analysis on her party hopes that it would. If a permanent request with consideration within offices to review and repair the review may take years. In tens of thousands of dollars even for a request. There is no guarantee that after paying for the analysis itll be awarded the days. When Cost Recovery is applied which is applied inconsistently it is often applied halfheartedly. Finally i would say i understand everybody in this room, witnesses, agencies, staffers, audience and or committee alike are here to connect more people with americas incredible outdoor treasures and we truly appreciate the effort to address the challenges in the spirit of the hearing today. Were in this together. Thank you for your time. Thank you to each of you. I want to start my questions out for service, you not only heard the issues that have been presented by the others but you heard the stories that we have shared directly with you whether nearly a ten year effort to help facilitate the activity. Weve come to you with frustrations over the length of time to get permits for some years, much of what we heard back from for service, we dont have available folks to process the permits because what has happened with the tortured industry of fire borrowing we allowed to continue over the course of way too many years that it robbed account and you were adequately enable to staff the good news, we have addressed that in the budget cycle in the procreation bill this morning and were rectifying that. But that does not answer all of the issues and frustration with what we can do better and it comes to these permits on these public lands and how we can facilitate. And thats the need for the legislation were talking about today. And one more try to cut through some of the regulatory or permitting issues. So both be a limb and for service are mandated to manage for multiple use so you have to figure out how you balance recreation and the other uses of the public lands, both of you, how do you do that, how do you basically provide for that prioritization one against the other and then and i might have to add it to another question but i want to hear from you specifically of what you can think you can do within your agency to respond to the frustration the real legitimate frustration and not just say we need more money. Thank you, senator, i appreciate the question and i think the testimony they heard is accurate, as you mentioned weve heard from a number of folks about the lack of Customer Service and the inability to deliver these things, the firefighting is essential it has basically stopped the leading money away from those activities and that is really helpful and will create a stable environment going forward. On the first question about how do you balance, right now for focus its about dealing with the core issue that is driving the fire funding issue and not the condition yo condition over forced and the other is wrong Customer Service. How do we improve our Customer Service. Things that were doing right now, this year building off pilots weve done the last two years we have created funding for additional strike teams to focus on permanent operations, we are at any given time have a backlog of expired permits are an acceptable prayer we cut that in half lost time down to about 5000. And that was through the strike teams. We continue to do that with a risk based approach where the problems in the resources to bear. Weve also just this year issued new guidance with developing Customer Service of the timeframe for us to respond we have done this with input from the user groups or are you working the best practices on your own . I think its important that you are acting with consultation with those who were on the receiving end, how much input do take from them . We will in this years budget direction, they sure we will establish the standards which weve never had before about the minimum Response Time and that was issued three weeks ago so that will be the work in the next month working with groups on how we should do that. The final thing i would add is were looking at the process and regulations that are around driving the ways that were showing up that are not capacity related and were looking at the policies on permitting in general and one of the things we work on now, theres over 8000 activities in our permitting processes that we believe may require a permit. Were working to put that into regulation so its a multi tiered approach of adding capacity and a policy inputting and performance matrix. One of the things we have learned, ill use an example when don frank regulations came out and i would hear all of my small banks and small Credit Unions say were getting killed by the regulations i would say spell it out, tell me which ones are really onerous and working there be a level of six. My hope is that agencies listening to the outfitters, the guides, consumers in terms of these are areas that are really bringing some after keeping us from getting a permit that could take eight people out ice fishing. So i hope there is a connect going back and forth and i want to get to you but im over my time so i ask you to respond to my question in the next round. Thank you, madam chair. First of all i want to commend senator heinrichs bill basically. It opens up for me because i come from West Virginia and we have one of the most fantastic rivers as far as rafting and we dont have this problem. Because the state patrol. The state controls access, this is supposed to be for recreation, why is the federal government where we fighting the federal government on this that and everything else. , we have nothing. Were writing into the hall to make sure the state fix something that is not broken. But im learning more and more about how the federal governmen [inaudible] the park has control but we never did give it to them. And thats the difference. I dont know how we do that, anything i would ask, the heinrichs bill there telling me weve had permit for a long time, theyve enjoyed and have not been used in the ones getting access or prohibited people from how do you the tourism we should have an Economic Vitality from it. Is this only for businesses, if theres a thousand has not been used, could some of those go back or does have to go through an outfitter . Is a former outfitter guide there is not really in most places theres not a limitation on the general public but anywhere with Group Exercises whether through university or business that way you have outfitter guide and thats were many of these relate and illuminating Economic Development despite the fact theres not a resource problem. If there is an overuse problem, thats one thing but in many cases the vast majority there was not a problem. To me it seems like language legislation with the best use practices to enhance recreation in the economy for the purpose of what were trying, they have to continue to make sure that those permits are used in they go back and. If i go out of business and have a permit its torment. Indeed, in montana we have a situation where one outfitter shattered about 15 years ago and they had like 500 years, those days were never recovered and as it is considering in the process permitting, they have a moratorium on any additional permits. So we know its reduced but we also see no additional use being reworded to anyone. I say thank you, senator and we can work with you for all of you on the western lands end if anyone thinks they cant get on the river, come to West Virginia we will not prohibit you at all, come with a guide, get an inner tube, whatever you want were good with it. Thank you, madam chair. [inaudible] madam chair, i think these are all my apologies. Thank you for your testimony today, we had a very good here last year in colorado and under 2000 ski resorts in the state and those are all over other talked about coming off a record in the river basin in a record amount of snowfall in the colorado basin and other areas as well a Record Number in the ski season so it was an incredible year. Can you walk you what you see the business side. I think thats right and part of the momentum i talked about in the industry so coming off a 2018 and 2019, it was not good in one place and dart in other places, snow was up 31 and was equally distributed. So the fourth best year in the industry in terms of visitation is back up to 59 million secure vote under visits. Everyone is excited about that and that momentum is rolling over and we had the snowiest october in the long term in colorado, good cold temperatures and a lot of snowmaking going on, some in colorado in the month of october. Everyone is excited. But the other thing that has industry bullish and driving momentum is advance commitment that guests are making the new season guest products, its a win for the consumer in the industry when people and advance commit. Without success has invest infrastructure to make upgrades to equipment facilities drought the properties and to develop more accommodations for the growing number of visitors, what does that mean in terms of constraints that they face in recent years on federal land and trying to advance the Capital Improvement projects they are able to make because of the successes and hopefully this year as well. The momentum and folks want to capture that momentum and first and foremost, none is intended or should be taken as commentary on the great work of the Forest Service, their tremendous partner, what were trying to do is address the constraints that our partners are facing. We cannot be a healthy industry without a healthy partner. Just a couple of examples, there is a ski area they currently dont have a permit administrator in their forest and that means there delays, they want to bury power lines in the ski area, they cannot get started on that. When you have the lower funding regimes, lower Staffing Levels in staff turnover and details the details run out and people leave and that impacts the ability and were seen and delay in project implementation for a new snowmaking system and trails at a western ski area. In the testimony was it was a nine month cause because they cannot accept applications for process. We have competing ski areas on by different entities in a single forced having to elbow each other out trying to get one project to feel like it has capacity to do. One thing i dont want to miss are the Avalanche Centers, that the Forest Service house. Theres 13 around the country and their underfunded by about half and that gets filled in by friends and donations but thats a local service that gets provided. In your opening statement, 2011 legislation that passed and signed into law allowing for the recreation that has put greater pressure. Can you talk about how this legislation will allow us to address the recreational needs for the service lack in 2011 you could call it an Unfunded Mandate we started applying for more summer activities and reducing the stress in the white river we think we are down about 40 on overall funding its been more than the white river. That force in the region has done Everything Possible to keep up with the industry and i think that they estimate good job and when we were talking about the strike team they did absolutely in consultation with the history and making we are starting to some of the fruits of that. Thank you madam chair. Enqueue madam chair and i want to start by saying i think these are all really important bills and really compatible. Addressing the basic resource issue i think is also really important than just getting that ououtthere and setting fire whie chair in a number of people on the committee have done a remarkable amount of work and we are starting to see that in the appropriations process, the recreation is still only 5 of the Service Budget and that is despite the fact it is the single largest economic driver across the Service Today so it generates more and by limiting that and not making it more of a priority what we are doing is limiting Economic Development especially in the rural committees. So i think we have to revisit our priorities and put more emphasis on recreation and also just recognize that we need to fund our public land agencies better for infrastructure, for the folks who should be in the field to actively manage, weve got to do a better job because we have seen in real dollars reduction in the focus over time and that is a huge fundamental problem. We heard about challenges in terms of moratoriums. I had an experience back in the 90s i was trying to get a permit but the organization i worked for at the time had for decades and was one we used every single year and i called to check up on my permit. There are recreation persons sorry we are not going to be able to do your permit this year. Im busy on the land extreme. You just cant run a business like that. Whether you are organized as a nonprofit or a forprofit business, either way if you are spending more than you can bring in and your business can shut down a four season, you are out of business. Have you had those kind of experiences . Of those were the good old days. [laughter] the temporary permit has gone away and then to the new permitting policy which was done with the best intent temporary permit but you can get limited to 200 days that isnt even enough to rent a single golf course on. The process for trying to transfer the is murky at best. To the point that it has been reduced i think you see that a lot. We have seen that in the National Forest right now going through the proposed management plans and theres changes for the length of stay limits we are trying to get securities graft into our own permit that weve been operating without an existing permit for over two years in the agreement and we are working with us to get up there but its a pretty tenuous situation to be in. If i asked you to explain how the Cost Recovery works for the permits, could you explain it to me . Not easily. I tried to purchase nearly eight years ago. The permit application went in and it was clear at that time the Environmental Review would be somewhat significant. They asked for i believe about 14,000dollar down payment to the recovery work. This was six or seven years ago. Just to get in the door. To my knowledge that money has not been spent and has not been returned. So not only did it to stall but the Cost Recovery is about covering the cost of going through the process of the permit and paying for the various review processes. Which can be a giant barrier to entry. I love talking about montanas economy. It is a pillar in fact its our Outdoor Economy they are estimated to bring in 7. 1 billion in Consumer Spending about 286 million in revenue to the state and local government and 71,000 direct jobs nearly 10 of all jobs in montana. In one poll, 87 said they are outdoors enthusiasts. My question is who are the other 13 in montana. Its a fundamental driver of the economy. Despite other things like being in the wilderness, we got out and did our 20 to 30mile loop from some of it off trail and that is what we define as a good time in montana. There is a bipartisan i want to thank senator heinrich for his leadership streamlining the permitting process making it easier for families that want to fish in our great rivers and want to backpack this will help to that end. Its heavily supported by the outfitters including the association and the montana guide and so many more. I will continue to fight to get this bill passed and to help protect the Outdoor Recreational heritage which we have in montana. As you know the bipartisan act helps to streamline currently a burdensome permitting process. Can you explain how making key reforms in the process will help increase recreational opportunities . Thank you for the question. It currently issues about 1,000 permits and we oversee about 4600 permits at any one time. Currently most activities do not require a permit if we support this bill to help improve the those permit activities. Secretary bernhardt has several orders to help in this regard. We are working on an ongoing distance of the public users can apply to the special permits online. In places like montana we have a checkerboard pattern in effect thursday missoula company about every outdoor enthusiast has that app on their phone that lets us know where we are at in terms of who has the Land Ownership regarding multiple public agencies. He might be on the fish and wildlife. The farmers and ranchers know sometimes that forcing the outfitters to get permits from three agencies, to departments, it just doesnt make sense. There are numerous agent fees te that have different permitting processes and doesnt it make sense in a single permits would save the Department Time and money and result in more people getting permits we probably would require a permit and i completely understand the challenge i used to work in oregon with the ownership prevalence so i understand the frustration that it can create unique management and awkwardness. Outdoor enthusiasts came time to spend time outside off to play checkers. Last, i heard frustration from a number of groups about the complexity. The Small Businesses cant keep up with a growing burden of paperwork and there needed for Something Like little to no effect on the environment. Quickly because im running out of time, what can we do to simplify the permits and make them more uniform across the agent is . I think theres a number of things we can do. Our staff is working on the entire permitting process we will get back on the specifics but that is the focus in our overall reform part of the frustration is that there were different if all you are trying to do is take pictures of our extraordinary public spaces to jump through the level of troops i know we were able to work through some of that which is good but it is still something we need to continue working on. Lets go to senator cortez, but you needed to go first. Are we all could . Okay. I appreciate that. And then lets talk about beautiful nevada and buy to make him happy nevada day. This is a happy holiday for us we celebrated our statehood. Very proud of our state but also with our Outdoor Recreation this is something that is important to me and i have been talking about it with the 87,000 direct jobs generating 12. 6 billion in Consumer Spending. So, let me i appreciate the real Life Experience that you have because this is what i hear it every day in nevada. One of the things im curious, can you talk a little bit about the people you bring out to explore the Great Outdoors some of the experiences you have from them in it for the first time you have any stories because to me not just those of us that grew up with it or get to experience it for those that are brought out for the very first time as thats what this is about is ensuring we preserve our pristine areas and give access for so many different areas and opportunities for individuals who may never get the chance and all of a sudden a light goes on because somebody had the opportunity to bring them out there and incurious does anybody have a story with respect to something theyve experienced . The thing i keep talking about this thereve been offers otheallthese other benefits bess just the economic benefits. We know that it improves mental and physical health and that it sparks an interest in lifelong learning. Its these early moments of turn on the lightbulb and tell us that we need to be stewards of the land not just of air but we have to take care of it. And there is some sort of healing that goes with it as well. One of the things i learned when i was home and talking with some of our veteran that are dealing with some ptsd issues and they are now experiencing the outdoors and part of that is helping them with their healing process as well. Right. Thank you for your bill on this and for cosponsoring that. There were some studies pretty recently that i think we took 72 veterans out on a Research Study in the outdoors and there was a 27 reduction of the symptoms because the study exceeds the success rate for prescription drugs. I only have so much time and the reason i want to explore all of this is a cause i think its important that we make access available to everyone and streamline the permitting process. Thats why we are here for these bills. There is a reason why i support dot stream winding process, and we all do. Here is my concern for not hearing from our federal. Its great that you are in the process of trying to do the streamlining now, but how long has this been taking place, seven years ask my concern is a every time there is a new administration there may be changes and whether there is good cooperation in the streamlining and as we codify it somehow in law and that is why i support this and what we are trying to do in the legislation to make sure that longterm there is a coordination. But i appreciate the agencies moving forward on this. What wlet me ask why ive got an opportunity because i think mr. Mcgwire brought this up. The concern would be avalanche of synthesis, and i think you said there are 13 of them through the service but they are a refund if i have. So im curious about your thoughts on that and how the senate bill will help address that issue. Thank you, senator for the question. We agree. If you look at the overall capacity of the agent need to deliver it is almost dropped by 40 in the last 15 years. You are seeing symptoms of that in a cases like this. This bill will directly help provide capacity to manage those permits and provides additional capacity that we might use towards those areas to help in other areas such as the Avalanche Centers so it is a direct help. When you talk about the work that youre doing and avalanche safety, do you also talk about will this help you with education as well, is that a key piece of what you are doing when you address the service is . Defocused is about prevention and safety and preventing them from occurring so education is the key part of that. And the bill will help in some enough. Thank you. Senator king. First i want to observe we miss pronounce the word of recreation. If really is greek creation, and that is the essence of what we are talking about here is the greek creation of peoples hearts and soulpeopleshearts and souly entered the outdoors. I think its important its re creation. Anyway, first you mentioned 300,000 have done the trip since my son was one of them some 30 years ago it was extraordinary. On Prince William sound in alaska it was a signal to experience this young mans life so i want to thank you for what they do for 300,000 plus people around the country. More substantively, there is a theme here that bothers me. We had a hearing a couple of weeks ago senator cassidy has a bill to increase the staffing due process permits and here we are talking about to increase staffing and being able to respond more promptly and efficiently to permits. The bottom line is the federal government cant work if there is nobody to answer the phone and we are going through a period where bureaucrat is a dirty word and where we have hiring freezes and freezes of salary, no raises yet here we are talking about delays and permitting because somebody was doing Something Else with a land transfetheland transfer they cot the permits. I just think we need to realize you could have the same hearing in any committee at the department of agriculture or for fish and wildlife from anywhere in the federal government that processes the irs or the processes complaints and permitting applications from citizens. So i think its important to point out that you cant have it both ways and then complain that permits are not being granted in a timely fashion. I think thats an important point and i am seeing a pattern develop. Finally, a specific question. Im curious about the bill, and senator gartner isnt here. In section five a. Three, it talks about what the money can be used for and most has been for the administrative cost reducing the time and staffing of the agencies. No problem there, but then it talks about other things that can be useful to this interpretation activities, visitor information, Visitor Services and signage to enhance the. That you buy a new chair lift with this money . No. Could you build a road . A ski company could sub that an application. We are talking that increasing the infrastructure of the area. What does that mean . Im a little concerned we are talking about federal money being given to a profitmaking organization. There is no matching requirement. What does that mean, Visitor Services . I think first and foremost i do want to note none of these dollars will be used to pay for or by infrastructure for the private company. But earlier you used the word infrastructure about five times today. When i see infrastructure i mean the permitting processes that the company must go through in order to be able to make that investment. Said, this money would go to pay the cost of preparing the replication is that what youre saying . They pay for the environmental work that goes through the Cost Recovery. I dont anticipate this going. When a Service Contract out to a third party, they must accept the word of a third party back into the federal government. That takes the services biologist i want to go on record as being concerned about the term Visitor Services i dont know what the theme because i gathered through the discussion today that we are talking about things that the visitors experience and that is what it says. Then it also says it forbids using the money for Fire Suppression or Land Acquisition to fill out an area. I find the whole provision a little disturbing and i just wanted to give to the markup and i would like some more information because it says interpretation activities and Visitor Services and signage that is a pretty broad term and i want to know what that means because i dont think we should be fun in a new chair lift or if we are going to find that kind of thing there should be some kind of a matching requirement and other limitation. Its not the intent of the legislation to subsidize any actual infrastructure. When we say the secret service is weaning such as something that lets visitors know they are on the national course. We mean having Law Enforcement available. It means having the other day for the rangers to be out on the area. I just worried about the language and i dont quite understand why the money could be use used with for the foreste suppression on the unit. It seems that is something we would want to do, isnt it . I think the concern would be that the Fire Suppression needs are so great that it could quickly take everything. Okay. Thank you, madam chair. I appreciate you raising that. I know that was the question senator manchin had. Let the record show i had that question before. We are going to give you total credit here. This is an important part of what we are doing as we learn more about these issues looking at the legislation that has been proposed. We all know that even contained within the three bills, there are going to be some things, some ideas that are going to be prompted from this more than we might want to add as the senator mentioned in his opening comments. What we are seeking to do is take these ideas not unlike the did with our Storage Initiative where we had five separate bills that kind of worked together to put together a package, and i think the goal is to build a robust recreation package coming out of the committee. I appreciate the directed focus on some of this language. We want to make sure that again it all works. I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond to the same question that i asked about how you balance the recreation uses and how you determine that and then i will have some other questions for the rest of you. Go ahead. Thank you for the question. It balances the resources typically through the landuse plan and also the secretary has issued many orders around the streamlining of permits and through several secretarial orders. We are following those and implementing those and like i said, balancing goes through the Land Use Planning process. The process is a little different between agencies and that there is a difference in terms of ease of operation and what is determined to be userfriendly and consumer friendly again these are things we want to explore a little bit further. I want to bring up an issue that you and i have shared when we have been out wenstrup with the secretary. I raised this with the secretary because it is something i continue to hear as i am home in state and specifically this comes up when you have people that really love the outdoors. This is where we play and recreate and the eocene degradan whether it is public trails were the Forest Service cabins. All they want to do is help. They want to be the volunteers are going to make sure that the cabin is kept better after they leave for their nice weekend then when they got there. The level of frustration ive heard from individuals that said all we wanted to try to do is help and in order to be certified as a volunteer to be able to go out, we have to demonstrate that weve got we are certified in hell to run a chainsaw that we have full on red cross training. These are men and women that know more about the National Forest then most any of us would on any given day. And they just feel like they have been disenfranchised and discouraged from trying to be good partners and this is something i know the secretary cares a lot about because it isnt only good partnering but it gives us that ownership and so if you can speak to what you are doing within the Forest Service to look to these areas that are prohibiting or restricting volunteers from coming together to be helpful, what we can do here in congress to help facilitate volunteer efforts, i participated in a park Service Volunteer day at the great falls area in august or september with my interns was a great day for us but it was one day and we were strictly supervised but we were supervised by fabulous folk in the parks. Our public lands need all of us chipping in. But it does seem the government is the one that says for a liability reason it is just not safe that you go there. Help me out with this. Thank you for the feedback. We never want to show up in that way. We have a responsibility to protect folks and i think that may be a space for some dialogue where we can talk about that side of things. On the other hand, we had 4. 4 million hours of volunteers since last year. Its critically important to us and if there are ways we are showing up at disenfranchising folks the way we are managing that right now is primarily through education of our own employees to talk about problem solving and its not the case in all places. When we see systemic issues these are the places we start to have conversations about whether regional policies, local policies or National Policies that need to be either a line because that is a part of the problem and we are sometimes showing up differently in different places where we need to create an alignment across the agency. Im always open to hearing her of the feedback especially if we know places where that is occurring and we will address it. I know some of the Committee Members had come together as an advisory. I think that there needs to be more of that and working together with our partners i think we see some examples where its working better than others. But i have some very specific stories about what we have seen with the Forest Service cabins that are perfectly good and perfectly usable but pretty remote. Theres no roads to anything anyways people have to fly in and push back that we are getting as well there isnt a lot of use in that particular cabin because it is remote. Okay, thats fair weve got to make decisions in terms of how we are prioritizing the cost, but if there are those that can then help with some basic maintenance, the answer is we are going to take the cabin down because its expensive to check on every year and not that many people are using it. But if there are those that can help, why are we taking down these great assets, so that is something that i would like to explore with you and your team a little bit more. I never just cannot be related to alaska. Lets go back to you, senator heinrich. I think we are getting at a lot of really good issues here that deserve our attention. I dont want to pick a bone with you and i want to return to the exchange you had with the senator because i think there was a little but of a misunderstanding. Its true that you said it doesnt require permits for hunting. Two died the hunt you do require permits and thats where she was describing his code requires that special use permit. One of the things we talked about quite a bit here and that ive worked with the chair is congress around a decade ago with a little more than that at the tail end of the Bush Administration asked the department of interior and the service all three agencies as well as the Forest Service is coming up with unified filming structure. There was a draft, not a draft of a proposed rule. My understanding is that was accepted by the three agencies that they did not accept it and today we still have a mismatch between the Forest Service on those. Do you know what the thinking was and why we still have two different standards for filming . I dont, but i will followup. We want to look at that and see if one makes more sense than the other. When they are butting up against each other i know that in new mexico often times when some of the shows film they are trying to operate in areas that have multiple public land agencies and so having one unified agency once again permit structure where you designate a lead agency and they can do it once rather than jumping through both agencies that might make a great deal of sense. I know youve also mentioned the categorical exclusions with respect to the activities would you expect final action on some of those . We are expecting to release the final late spring early summer in fact we are working on that before we came here and it will directly address many of the pieces that you heard and others testimonies as well. I look forward to seeing that. Thank you very much. The other part of our job is now commencing we had a series s of three foods that have begun about ten minutes ago so we have to wrap up here. I want to think each of you for your contribution to the discussion here today. I think that this is one of those areas when we look to those things that the Energy Committee can help advance and builds a level of support and consensus. Weve got republican bills and democrat bills that we have considered here today. We have matters that people care about because they care about our public lands, they care about the ability to get outside and recreate. It is such an important part not only of our economy, but what we are blessed to have as americans. I think we recognize we have visitors that come from around the world to see our National Treasures to go through our parks and two flute rippers are taken innertube. In the senators state, we have extraordinary land and that is how we make them available. Im also very, very cognizant that the experience is something we want to ensure is a good one and sometimes that requires a level of regulation some of us would rather not have to put up with but its part of what we do. We also have to recognize the public lands are not just an entirely recreation but they are multiple use land and how we balance that is in important part of the discussion as well. So as we prioritized, that is one aspect. But making sure there is access in a way that treats the land respectfully and allows for that good Visitor Experience. It is interesting when i was in the National Park with senator lee, extraordinary spaces. It was my first visit there and it just kind of takes your breath away. We were there and there wasnt a lot of traffic in the road. Just listening to the local folks they talked about the increased visitation and how they accommodate that and how they ensure they have a good Visitor Experience and save Visitor Experience when you have basically one way in and one way out and everybody wanting to see many of the same treasures all bath once so how we do this is a challenge. We have good legislation in front of us and good ideas to work with. Im certainly going to be soliciting more as we work to do with a broad package. But when i think about those component pieces of energy measure through the committee, its good to talk about our Natural Resources in the same of our oil and gas and coal, renewables, minerals and also to recognize it is an extraordinarily important part of our economy and extort really important part of our national identity. We have some work to do and we look forward to doing it with you all. We stand adjourned