Joining us, his newest book, called, Bobby Kennedy, a raging spirit. Mr. Matthews, you refer to mr. Kennedy as a misfit. Why . Imagine growing up the younger brother of two big strapping older brothers, jo kennedy, jr. , jack kennedy, both six footers, healthy, wellfed, confident, elegant, popular. He is this little guy. His father called him a runt. Ignoredtl him. He was sort of the irish kid that was not going to get the land. He was not going to inherit anything. I think what happened was, that helped him develop empathy. That was great thing he had. He could emphasize with people in trouble. Poor whites in appalachia, blacks in mississippi delta. Blacks, live living on mow lassies with extended stomachs like they were in africa. He was interested in people that had no votes for him, native americans on reservations. Even joe mccarthy, when he was killing himself with booze. He cared about him and. It had a lot to do with the fact that he was overlooked. Cspan what was the relationship between joe mccarthy and Robert Kennedy . I think it was love. Bobby had tremendous affection for him especially on the road when he wasdown hill. He was led the wrong way by roy cohn. Got him into tremendous trouble with dishonesty and demagoguery. They were both anticommunist and irish catholics. Even after bobby wrote the resolution condemning him for the democrats, stuck with him personally. There is sad story, actually the best story, kathleen his daughter told me was at airport, national airport, now reagan airport, he got word over the car radio, joe mccarthy had finely drank himself to death. He was so distraught what mccarthy done to himself, drove around the airport three times. Both his brothers, jack and teddy, askedd about their brother, that made him different than anybody else. Mccarthy was pariah, villain of the world, had no ben it to anybody, bobby stuck with him. He went to the funeral, sat in the car nobody would see him, to show respect to his old boss. He had character. You dont have to agree with him but he had character. Cspan christmas thousands was earlier on the miami book fair, talking about this book. We want to hear from you. For those of you in the mountain and eastern and mountain and pacific time zones. He used a phrase in his 1968 campaign, looking for the National Soul of the usa. What was he looking for . Well i think, again back to empathy and unity. I think he wanted to unite working class white and blacks. I think he maybe was the last bill clinton could do a bit of it. I wont give away White Working Class so we have minorities. I want to get them both. He went through to gary, indiana, richard hatch, first africanamerican mayor in white convertible andhe tony zale, big hero of the ethnic whites. He wanted a Democrat Party political home to striving blacks and striving, overlooked white americans, the poor people. In fact i think the best emblem of that is the pictures on the book. I made a point of, this is one of the reasons i wrote this book was that back picture, that very poor white family saluting him. That is, to me affection and patriotism. That guy. Obviously has been in the military. The poor kid, poor whites, these people were dirt poor. Picture on the cover of the africanamerican kids he was campaigning for, africanamerican kids singing battle hymn of republic. Different than what we see today. Which is about division, taking a portion. Electorate and attacking the other portion. I think he tried to bring the nation together. Cspan would he have won the nomination . He had a shot. I mean that because i dont believe in my kind of predictions. I think i could have predicted that like i do in elections like the week before. He would have challenge in new york. Westside new york liberals cspan he was senator from new york. Irkhe know. I think he had a hard time convincing old political types, jim tate mayor of philly. Hubert. Humphrey had the johnson team behind him. What one thing opens door to possibilities, we think how horrible the Democratic Convention turned out in 68. Students rioting and students rioting, if bobby walked into that convention something would have been different like he did in the 64 convention. Magic could have occurred. Those delegateses in those days were not bound by primaries. They could just erupted. Hard to say. I think j he would have beat richard nixon. I think nixon was spooked by him. There is great scene in my book where nixon watching kennedy announce for the nomination and nixon gets real weird and twilight zone, forces will be unleashed we cant imagine. We dont know where this will indhe was really spooked. Cspan midmarch, 1968, rfk announces. March 30th, 1968 lbj pulls out. Declares out. Any relationship . Well, if you want to get into causality, larry obrien, a old kennedy hand was still with the president , still with president johnson and he gave him the poll numbers showed he was going to get beaten two to three to one in wisconsin, that tuesday. Two days before that im getting out. All the experts on johnson, im not one, like robert caro, he feared most humiliation. He feared unmanly. Didnt want to look like a loser, he feared kennedys would make him a sandwich. Kennedy before him makes him vp. Kennedy after him knocks him off. I think he was afraid of that. Cspan did Bobby Kennedy, switch, flipflop his position on vietnam war . Yeah. February 1966 he came out and said i opposed johnson policies. March 67. Im one of those responsible for those policies. I believed in them. I was a hawk. Were not going to win. He called for negotiations with the political wing of the vietcong. He said weve got to put together aet government. You know what . He was right because the deal that nixon struck in 1972 and 3 was far softer on the communists. That gave him the country. Were leaving. Whereas back then we could have cut a deal where we insisted on some kind of coalition. We would have a better chance keeping a western foothold over there. Cspan june 6, 1968, where were you . Whoa. I was in montreal all with a friend of mine, looking for a job. He was going to leave the country. A lot of people like that. I was willing, i had never been out of the country so i went up withy him. We were looking saturday night, for the big debate, mccarthykennedy debate. The canadian at bar, was national listtic, no, youre coming in here. Youre telling us what to watch. He was watching law wrens welk not like watching a canadian show. That night i woke up in 3 00 in the morning i turned on the radio and i started to listen, guy im staying with, twin beds, i woke him up, thinking you have to watch this thing or listen to this thing. Looks like theyre replaying the kennedy assassination. In a few minutes i reallied this is not rerun. This is it, the second killing of a kennedy. I fly back to chapel hill where im going to grad school, north carolina, i waited like everybody else. So its over. I remember watching the funeral train that monday or friday, whatever it was, two days later. It was a monday, thats right. Im watching it. Im going, this is just a loss. This is not like the terrible beauty of the kennedy funeral which was gorgeous and crisp day, beautiful jacqueline, beautiful kennedys, horseless rider, de gaulle, all the wonderful color and beauty. This is just a loss. Were losing Bobby Kennedy. Say in your book, Chris Matthews, that you were in montreal, and seriously considering staying up there. No, i never said that. Cspan that your student deferment went out . Ier. Mid is a first of all. Cspan sorry, i thought i read that in the book. Sorry. Okay. I would have never done that at that d time i did not want to put on a uniform because so many people were putting on uniforms not serving in combat. There are a lot of billets in the military. My roommate became a finance officer. A lot of ways to keep your parents happy. A lot of ways to be positive. I joined the peace corps that summer. Cspan okay, why this book now . I worked on jack kennedy a couple years ago and before that, kennedynixon. I knew this story, what i came to believe how powerful bobby was. He was leader on civil rights. He was the one that talked jack into the pushing of civil rights june of 63. He got them through the cuban missile crisis. He advised bringing in turkish missiles in as negotiation and answering first letter from khrushchev. He also was the one that went to the xcom group, top advisors to the president. We cant be like japanese and we dont believe in sneak attacks. We cant have a big raid on cuba and killcu a lot of cubans and t of russians. He is a moral compass. You ask me why i wrote the book in final end, final drafting, he is what we dont have, he is what we dont have, empathy, unitynd and a moral compass. Cspan before we go too far i want to street state from here, i overstated what you do write up there, for me an important personal moment that long weekend came as i sat on a park bench several blocks up from st. Catherine street studying a list of notes to myself. These were my options on what to do now that my student deferment was turning into a pumpkin. The one that jumped out at me promising adventure, patriotism and good values was the peace corps. My preference, africa. That is Chris Matthews. I was thinking of vista. I was thinking of teaching high school. Becoming a National Health officer. That was another way to go. I was not doing what al gore did, take enlistment in the military, be Public Information guy, then i would learn how to write. That is what i was thinking of doing. Cspan Chris Matthews is the our guest. Bobby kennedy, a raging spirit, is the book. Monet in maryland youre first up. Caller Chris Matthews, i hello, i spoke to you the other night on wbz, you were on wbz radio. I gave you a shoutout and i thank you for deciphering this, the climate that were presently in with political climate, deciphering that. I also wanted to tell rachel maryland you love her. A little lady by the name of daisy, she is 70 years old. She loves rachel. Would you tell rachel that for her, for us, please. I would be glad to do that. Rachel and i are good friend. She is a wonderful personally individually not on camera, as well on camera. I will be glad to tell her. I think she knows she is loved out there. I know she knows that. They see her ratings every night. She is through the roof. She is our tent pole on msnbc at 9 00 every night. So i will do that thank you. Cspan norman, hazlett, michigan, good afternoon, Chris Matthews is our guest. Caller mr. Matthews, with all these, it seems to be that all these conspiracy theorists dont seem to want to go away. In fact even this morning or, not in morning but last night i saw on Canadian Television broadcast more evidence of people talking about president kennedys assassination and Bobby Kennedy was impuned to be part of the socalled conspiracy. Do you think bobby was part of the conspiracy to kill his brother . Caller yeah. It is silly,. More than silly, horrifying. That is awful thing to even repeat, sir. Caller i do not believe it. This is just horrible. Cspan hey, norman, if you can wrap this up and make your last point, mr. Matthews can respond. Caller i just want to know if there is any way that, if mr. Matthews can Say Something that can end all of this conspiracy stuff . No, there is nothing i can do cspan thank you, norman. Let me say, here is what i think is going on here. There is two incentives for believing in conspiracy theories and theyre all pretty recognizable. One incentive were trained for the time where little children in our fiction, in our literature, that a great leader, protagonist always has a bad, strong antagonist. Whether moriarty, Sherlock Holmes or viago, othello, cavendish gang with lone ranger. People who show us that commit assassinations are Little People desperate for a role in history. The people who commit mass shootings, are Little People without not any good life to live and include their own suicide in these decisions. We have to get back to the reality of the world we live in, not literature. People want conspiracy theories and progressives, people on the left, cant live with the fact that a communist shot jack kennedy. It is too hard to absorb, i understand that completely, the people publicly hated kennedy were on the right. Ithe didnt seem right that somebody on the left did it to him. But those are the facts. Lee Harvey Oswald had the job at book depository long before the motorcade group. Everyone saw Sirhan Sirhan kill Robert Kennedy. I should have a third theory, all conspiracy theorists believe in all conspiracies. If they believe in the kennedy conspiracy they believe in the Robert Kennedy conspiracy. It is a long daisychain of conspiracies. I cant explain. You ask if i clear it up for them, i cant, because facts dont work. Cspan two books on jfk and rfck. You thank jonathan karp. He believes in me. This could out sell he is accessible guy at street level. Bobby is something you can say you know, i think i know that guy. He is the one that the father didnt like. He is the one that had to work for everything. Who had to figure things out like, in cuban missile crisis he goes from hawkin to dove. Civil rights, he had no interest in rights. His top guy gets beat up, knocked out, rising hatred against black people against desegregation he got into it. Mccarthy, he loved joe mccarthy he realized he was bad guy. He was growing up. You learn the people you love are wrong. No way too explain it neatly. He got tired of chasing bad guys. Looked out for the victims at the end. Cspan your book, Bobby Kennedy, a raging spirit. Jack was elegant. Bobby awkward. He was the heavy making himself in situations where jack needed to remain as distant. Jack would say go see governor today sal of ohio, he wont say he is for me. Keep me out of it. He sends bobby in with rober hose. Out comes the governor jack. That was like a mobster in the room with me. He made me do it. Did same thing with governor toes of marilyn. Bobby had to talk to the governor, hanging on to the governorship. Were cutting you lose, buddy. Jack is getting elected to the senate, you will lose the election. Jack said keep me out of it. Jack is the prince everybody likes, bobby is the one here is great example. I worked for tip oneill all those years. Bobby gave him to the 1966 give me your credentials in the election, give me your credentials so you dont get to be a delegate and give them to my little brother. Tip is irish, who do you think he sis, never blame the up start, blame bobby. That is how jack liked it. Cspan alan in houston, texas, go ahead, alan. Caller hi. Only reasonn im touch touching on this as you just said mccarthy is a bad guy but was bobby up with mccarthy going to exonerate nazi criminals that were involved with the shootings at malmudi . Who said Gene Mccarthy . Cspan you know what . Probably another theory or conspiracy theory. Probably joe mccarthy i dont know that story, sir. Cspan julie, largo, florida, julie, your question or comment forno Chris Matthews. Caller hello. Hey, chris. Hi. Caller hey, i havent gotten your book yet. I reread arthur schlessingers journals. All the personal interactions they had. I love that book. Caller , yeah, it really brought back that history. I lived through it same time you did. Listen i know it is kind of a hypothetical, what do youis thik the difference in this country if bobby had not been assassinated . Would we have a voice i think his brother, oh i think so. I think this would have happened, if he had been elected, if he had been elected, let me tell you we wouldnt have nixon of course by definition. Bobby was going to end that war. If you go to washington or have relatives who were killed in that war, half the people in that war were killed after 69, from 69 january. So clearly that would have been one result. I also think that as the war went on from 69 to 73 this country was very divided you remember. Youre my age. Between hard hats, working people, a White Working Class, o didnt to to college, college kids, and country was divided on class lines. That is still the case today. I think were still living legacy of bitterness over the fight of the war. If we ended that war faster we would have a have a better resu, because the only result in 73 we got to leave. We didnt negotiate that. We just leave and left. Getting prisoners back would have been easiest thing to negotiate. I dont know what we accomplished but a lot of dead people and lives ruined, between 69 and 73. We wouldnt have nixon and watergate. Cspan you talk about people swayed by the kennedy name that have made a difference. It could have carried him to election. Yeah. Cspan you talk about people being dazzled or swayed bit kennedy name, the fact that could have carried him in 68. We saw what happened in the 64 Democratic Convention in atlantic sy. When he walked out there to introduce a a film on his brothr it, was 20 minutes of applause. It was like nobody had ever seen. , that heen looked enough like s brother, invoked him, a lot of minorities especially saw jack. He would say when he goes through a crowd, there was a lot of applause, he would say to his friend paul, that is for jack, i think that is for jack. Kennedy name depend on the person. Teddy kennedy did not have it. The kid dont haveth it. Maybe somebody will. They will have to earn it. That is good dooropener. The guy in louisiana, senator from louisiana, kennedy. Cspan bill cassidy and john kennedy, yeah. Im not going to say whom, somebody in Authority Without embarrassing told me this, is what happens. You know, the name. They had earned that name. Joe kennedy did not have that great of a name. Cspan who was jfks Approval Rating in early november of 63 . Was he going to kind of sweep or i remember as kid looking at u. S. News world report i used to read as a kid it was close. But i think he president s got reelected in those days. Think about it, not since hoover somebody defeated for reelection. That was the great depression. I dont think nixon would not have run. I think he would have beaten goldwater. The guy he wase afraid of, he ws afraid of rockefeller. Then rockefeller got divorced. His new wife happy left four kids through her first husband. This is just, this killed the deal. The American People were not going to like Somebody Just had that kind of a marriage. It was a dealbreaker. So, it ended up being goldwater. Would have been very hard for goldwater to win although i love goldwater. Not love, liked gold water as kid. He was libertarian. Leave me alone. Live my life. When youre 18 years old, that soundsmy really good. Libertarianism. When you get older we do need social security, we need things like that. We need a Good Government, Good Government social programs. Cspan what are you reading right a now . Tonight im going to read,i think i will read shattered on the way home on the plane. I hear it is good. I avoided reading anything else for six months. Ive beend writing editing. In track they call it the kick at the end . Ive been in the kick. The kick meant every weekend, every morning every post midnight going to bet exhausted to get the book way i wanted to get it written. Best thing i was near doing in my life. They want the spirit of bobby back, what weve their politics. I think a lot of conservatives look at him as honest man. Who was really was what he was. Not about glamour or charisma. It is about a guy who tried to make himself better all his life. He kept trying, he knew he wasntt great. He tried to make himself a better man. I think people identify with that. Cspan one of the things i learned in your new book, which i didnt know, april 4th, 1968, when he was going into indianapolis, the police wouldnt escort him into the neighborhood. I had no idea. So he had just spoken at Notre Dame University and at Ball State University and given upbeat speech to a young africanamerican kid, what give yous faith in america . My faith comes from the fact that i think most white people and africanamericans are good people. He gets word into the car that dr. King has been killed by a white guy in racist killing obviously. I feel so bad i gave the kid hope. He gets to indianapolis. About to go into tough neighborhood, what we used to call ghetto neighborhood. Police refousted to go with him. So he went in alone. He gets up on flatbed truck. I worked for nbc, i could get the tape. He asked the guy on the tape or asks him, do they know yet . The guy goeses, no. Imagine looking at audience of africanamerican faces in the dark, telling them the greatest hero of their history was shot by a white person. He felt he had to do it, he couldnt dodge it. He took off his skin. He went in there, all empathy has to come from vulnerability. You dont walk up from a person dying or sick, you have to say, find some way of showing youre weak in this circumstance. You cant fix anything. You have to be, my brother was killed by a white man. That seems so awkward. It did then. I do know what suffering is. He talked about prayer. Most politicians say, i know i shouldnt say this, our prayers and thoughts are with you, come on. It is proforma. He was prayerful guy, bobby, he prayed all the time. Lets say a prayer for our country and our people. I mean, when you go back and read it again, listen to it again, you are overwhelmed by it. He was only the human being could have done that. I think who he was. Empathy. He had lost a brother in the war. He lost a sister in airplane accident. Lost another sister because awful father had lobotomy on her. Had a brother killed in the war. Teddy almost killed in 64 in the plane accident. He was surrounded by it, by death and good things in life but he knew pain. Cspan fernando in oregon. Youre on with Chris Matthews. Make your comment or ask your question. Caller chris, long, longtime fan. Youve been doing a great, great job. I was just thinking about your words about when politics works. Have you think about telling people a, this is the road map to what we could get to with this whole situation that is going on right now . Im sorry, im not plugging in your no, i know what you mean. I always write my books in the end when i get to actually writing g them, i research for e facts. But when it comes to crafting the book, i mean i know what im doing. I basically am talking about what we lack today, it is not just trump. What we lack in terms of empathy for people in trouble with this country, where a leader actually seems to care. A leader in either party who actually wants to unite people. It is easy to play one side or the other with racial fight, class fight, pick a side. Dump on the other side. Say how great your side is. Make the fight worse, more ferocious. The third thing i think is really missing, right across the board is moral authority, now power of the government, but the moral authority you ask for in a leader. Since the time were kids we want to think if the president knew a situation he would do the right thing. And i dont think we have that right now. That sense of moral leadership. And you know we can disagree about abortion rights, gay rights. There are disagreements but a sense of right and wrongdoing the right thing for our country is missing now. We dont talk like that. We have to have a leader who does. Cspan michael, salisbury, connecticut, good afternoon. Caller how are you . Chris, i got two simple, one simple question, one observation, i will take your response off the air here. First off, did you ever get a real good definition or understanding of what the assassins motive was . You know Bobby Kennedys assassin . And was there anybody else involved . And the second thing is, just an observation, been watching you a longlv time. You know you have a very difficult time saying complimentary things about conservatives. Im not being critical. I just notice that about your work. Anyway, take care, keep up the good work. Cspan that wasoo michael, salisbury, connecticut. I saluted orrin hatch who i worked on his first race in utah. He said his fight the other night with Sherrod Brown was real. I think he was deeply offended being accused of the rich mans bagman. I thought that was real. I said a so. I said i thought goldwater. I didnt like w because war we didnt fight. That is probably what youre going by. I think what happened with bobby, assassins, i dont write in my book, i dont want to celebrate them but there is usually politics behind it, except the case of hinckley with a fantasy with movie star. With bobby Sirhan Sirhan was christian arab, arab christian, who didnt like bobbys policies support of israel. Why was bobby proisrael . That cant be. When he was fighting for the california primary with a lot of very important, welleducated intellectual Jewish Voters they were like for Gene Mccarthy, very much like adlai stevenson, a cerebral, thoughtful liberal. Bobby was irish, part of that whole, they didnt like the old man because of what he had done in the war. So bobby had to go overboard supporting israel. When i got this from Gene Mccarthy afterwards, said bobby was supporting for sale of f15 fighters planes over the table as mccarthy put it, we were selling them under the table, what is the big deal . We were always arming israel. Bobby had to come tout make it dramatic. Sirhan sirhan heard this, i believe he made it clear that was his motive. I think he did do it alone. I just talked other night to vince shapiro who was there physically, holding up bobby while he was shot, he saw the bullets come from the gun of sirhan right there. I believe that is what happened. It isnt complicated. There you have it. A guy killed for political reasons. He has been in prison ever since. Teddyy kennedy asked him to be spared not to be executed. I thinknk we know everything. This isnt complicated like some of the others. Cspan how many u. S. President s have you known . Known. Cspan interviewed, talked with. Obama, w, ws father, meeting him, saying hello. They would know me. Clinton of course. I know some alsorans. Clinton, mrs. Clinton, hillary clinton, al gore. I know joe, i know joe biden very well. Id like to have met them all. Jimmy carter i knew. I worked for him as speechwriter. Ive known a lot of them. Cspan Ronald Reagan . You know i had picturetaking sessions with him. You know i did it two nights ago with ron, up seattle, im good friend with him. I was good friend with nancy, last 15, 20 years, because my mom died of alzheimers. I went to a thing with nancy, we were talking about alzheimers how she missed her husband, said it was worse than the shooting with hinckley because she lost the company of her husband. My dad went through that. You lost company of your soulmate. We became very good friends. Nancy was fun, tough but fun. We would go to dinner they were talking about this, we would go to dinner in beverly hills. One time i walk in there waiting, im earlier than her, hi, im going to dinner. What are you, secret service . No, im her date. Show would say like, chases great old hollywood hangouts, picture of this big plastic menus with all the old hollywood stars faces on them, calls the old guy over, oh, where is ronnie . Where is ronnie . He is not here. If this guy wrote the menu. She goes, well, he is president of the united states. She says, no, where is ronnie . Always looking even when he was sick, wass looking out for her husband. She is a treat to hang out with. Cspan Chris Matthews latest book, Bobby Kennedy, a raging spirit. Thank you for your time. Great honor to be here at the book fair and with you. Cspan is great. Thanka you. [inaudible conversations] good afternoon. Good afternoon. Great. I