Transcripts For CSPAN2 House Administration Committee Hearing On Sexual Harassment 20171129

A call to order the committee and House Administration title preventing Sexual Harassment in the workplace. The record will remain open for five legislative days so members can submit any materials. Lukewarmness president. I asked for consent that committee on ethics chairwoman ted deutch be afforded to ask the witnesses today. I asked that we be afforded the opportunity to sit and question her second panel i would think or witness for taking time out of the schedule to be with us today on the serious issue. I commence speak arrive for tasking this committee to undertake a comprehensive review. Todays hearing is a critical part of that process. There is no place for Sexual Harassment in our society. Especially in congress. Since important topic it will take us all working together. Members of congress we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard the disturbing accounts of Sexual Harassment experience baker and former members including a witness today revealed the Sexual Harassment is a serious hurt harassment in our society. Its no secret the culture on capitol hill is unique. While there for hundred 41 employing offices of the house we must share the common goal of creating safe and Effective Work environments that are productive and responsive to the needs of our staff comes constituents and the public. The personal account suggest that not every office is achieving this goal. These accounts dictate the need for comprehensive review of the policies and procedures of the Resources Available as it relates to Sexual Harassment in the workplace. Currently Sexual Harassment weirdest train is not mandatory. Several are not aware of the Resources Available to them. Today, well hear from two numbers one who is a victim of Sexual Harassment and another who had employment before his election to congress. Well hear from the office of compliance and to entities who are responsible for providing training to members and staff. The office of compliance is an independent agency to administer and enforce the act. While it is responsible for educating and Training Numbers there are individuals like representative spirit and norton who have spoken publicly about the need to do more. The office of house employment counsel provides training and resources for members and chiefs of staff. In addition several bills or seeking changes to the process, many involve making training mandatory. According to the office of compliance it is widely acknowledged that its a discrimination provides many benefits to the workplace. The trickling impacts employee behavior. He continues to be the most Effective Organization in creating a more productive workforce. I believe we need mandatory training. Probably everyone here will agree. As well as a more organized approach to address Sexual Harassment in the workplace. I look forward to hearing tall of our witnesses in both panels. Mr. Brady, i recognize you now for an Opening Statement. Thank you. The Congressional Workplace should have zero tolerance for Sexual Harassment. Thats why first baltimores. Congressman spears courage deserves respect and attention of members of congress. Thank you very much for being here today. Requires mandatory training for members and staff. Requires them to get back to us quickly. This Bipartisan Legislation is the first step and it should be passed immediately. I hope we can look at ways to strengthen and qualify our dispute including with additional i support additional appropriations. I think the witnesses for being here today im glad you be joining us. Im pleased that the Ranking Member tried to join us. The Ethics Committee will have a role to play with holding all of us to the highest conduct. I now recognize barbara for the purpose of an Opening Statement. Thank you. In recent weeks, Sexual Harassment and Sexual Violence has come to light ike never before. People have name names the renewed recognition of this problem in the need for change. Whether its bill klat cosby, bl oreilly, roger ailes, kevin spacey or one of her own, its time to say, no more. Ive been an intern in this body, staffer, a Counselor Committee and now a member. I appreciate the opportunity for this hearing today. I appreciate that weve committed to mandatory Sexual Harassment training for all the members and staff. I think we have a consensus to need improved training making sure were Getting Better reporting the response and knowing whats going on was surveys. Most are partly, to protect the victims. We need to know more examples of what is happening and making it easier for the victims to come forward. We know there are many in the shadows because her situation may have happened at a time or less attention was paid. Last night i talked to who in 1998 filed the First Successful harassment complaint against representative jim bates in a recent interview in roll call. Many women had the same experience. Only she and one other came forward. In speaking with her you could hear the pain still in her voice and telling the story. You can also hear the strength of the result. They need to know that will be there to back them up. I think its important we name names. People heard these rumors for years. I never knew this had happened to her. I was here in the time of bob i think of some of the things like Charlie Wilson teach him to type they cant teach him to grow breasts, hes more vulgar term. This is about a member here now. The someone i trust told me the situation. This member has to staffer to bring in materials to the residents. The young staffer is young woman was greeted with a member and a towel and invited her in. At that point he decided to expose himself. She left. She quit her job. But that kind of situation, what are we doing here for women right now who are dealing with someone like that. This is more complex situation. We need to have more training another violence is criminal. I would argue that is a crime in that situation. And then that we have a Better Process that person doesnt have to give up her career. She is talking about how she is very strong and somewhat their desire profession because of what happened. We can have that happen. I appreciate you giving us that opportunity. And that we hear more. Wheel back. There is no question that sexualharassment workplace including Congress Must be addressed. I think chairman harper and Ranking Member brady for this hearing. I think the witnesses for coming before us to help us examine how we can make improvements to our policies and procedures. The c sack calling for mandatory sexualharassment training is a step in the right direction. As we have discussed is not the end. We need to examine the process to make sure victims can have their grievances heard. This is important because Sexual Harassment is often about power, its about abuse of power. Hardworking staff needs to have an advocate just as hardworking. Mandatory training is long overdue. Been recommending it for 20 years. We just passed a resolution mandating it. Seems to me ted cruz and can agree we should be able to agree. The Online Training is a small start. In person training is where you have the most progress we need to do a better job of advertising Resources Available but we also need improvement to the process. One a make a special word about congresswoman jackie spears. Years ago we were staff compatriots. She worked for congressman and i work for congressman just south of that district. In many ways we had the impeachment of richard nixon, the war and the disruption. One thing check is talked about naked for so much credit is the assault that she suffered. I think its so important that she had the courage and grace to speak up. I know that has encouraged other people to step forward and now they can speak up to. Want to thank jackie for being here today for the lead, shes a great lawyer, terrific leader and not afraid of anything. Thank you, i yield back. Anyone else on the republican side wish to be recognized . As chairwoman of the house Ethics Committee im pleased to be part of this today. We know they have problems with both reported and unreported sexualharassment. Were committed to working with your committee that occurs through ensuring members and staff and we need to be insured that were protecting. Sexualharassment is prohibited by a court of official conduct. It is strictly prohibited by the housecoat of official conduct. And something the House Committee takes very seriously. We have an education division, the attorneys are trained when they want to contact the office of compliance. These discussions are confidential. I cannot report on the instances. But i can report advice given. The second function is to conduct an investigation when allegations are made and should someone be interested they can contact the Ethics Committee. The committee of protecting victims of harassment, i look forward to hearing ways to improve the house and how we can ensure were taking these. In closing i commend the three female members who just share and started as staffers. Its very important, im pleased to be a part of this. I never worked on the hill prior to congress and its important that you are here with strong voices. Thank you, neil back. The chair recognizes the jello one. Thank you very much for calling this hearing and are distinguished witnesses for their leadership. The nation is in an upper today over sectionals assault and harassment. From the studios of liberal hollywood to fox news to wall street and alabama theres an unwillingness to put up with what people have been unwilling to accept is business as usual. I believe the public has seen enough in one section. In congress we must be leaders not just by what we see in our legislation but what we do in our own workplace. Justice brandis once said for good or for ill it teaches the whole people by his example. This is a pervasive problem and been documented. Anywhere from 25 to 85 of women have experienced Sexual Harassment in the workplace. Constitutes sex discrimination integrates professional status of women. To think this body is immune from sexualharassment would be naive. Whether 1500 staffers called honest reform policies and adjudicating complaints. She said she did not know single woman who is experience inappropriate conduct. We must do our own part and lean the Public Sector training for members of Cyber Security chaining. Alma proud sponsor of House Resolution 604. I would urge them to urge as the senate did last week. Although is not sufficient we must examine these processes which may be acting in the problems. I understand there are multiple proposals put on the table aimed at encouraging and soliciting feedback. Im eager to learn how to Work Together to create a place safe for all of our employees. I look forward to the testimony today. I would like to introduce her witnesses on the first panel, jackie represents the 14th congressional district. She serves on the House Committee on the Ranking Member and on the Ranking Member committee on intelligence. Representative sphere is a tireless advocate. Representative Bradley Byrne represents the first came congressional district. Mr. Ron the House Committee as well as the workforce committee. Representative burn received his degree from the representative school of law. Practice labor and Employment Law from more than 30 years. During the practice he advised multiple businesses on harassment policies and litigated numerous planet cases. His overseeing multiple sexualharassment investigations over his many years of practice. We have received your written testimony. Youll be given five minutes to present a summary of that and to help you keep time you have five minutes and it will go red when your time is up. We thank you for your time. The chair will recognize mr. Ms. Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak to him impress with the seriousness with which you are undertaking this. Its important to know that two other three go unreported and oftentimes sexualharassment leads to sexual assault. As i shared my information ive had phone calls with Staff Members who have been suggested subjected to this inexcusable behavior. There are two members of congress, republican and democrat right now who have been subject to review navigation sexualharassment. These such as are you going to be a good girl to perpetrators showing their genitals. All they ask in return as Staff Members is to work in a hostile free Work Environment. They want the system fixed and the perpetrators held accountable. Ive been working on this since 2014. Theres three steps that need to take place. Require sexualharassment training every year for members and staff. The existing office of compliance Online Training model is a start. Its not adequate. Effective training requires inperson interactive dialogue. This already legislation coauthored by many of you and i want to give a special thanks to Ranking Member brady second we can fix what we dont know, working in the academia climate surveys are conducted thats why congress should institute the Congressional Climate survey every two years. We must reform the broken dispute resolution system. They have been okay in the dark ages, its not appropriate for the 21st century. As a c on the monitor congressional employees are confused and utterly betrayed. You then have after that you are required to sign a nondisclosure agreement before you begin mediation. You then have mandatory mediation for 30 days. Additionally the harasser a Members Office are represented by house of representatives counsel. How does that compute . They are provided free Legal Counsel the victim is not. Survivors dont have the option to be in separate rooms as the defendants counsel in their often addressed in an aggressive manner. The fact that they work on behalf of the alleged harasser and is charged with advocating for the settlement of this agreement seems to be a conflict of interest. If the employee makes it this far they have to go through 30 days of a coolingoff period, now 90 days has elapsed that employees still required to work in that office or they are not eligible for services. Interns and fellows dont even have this process to access. They have nowhere to go. After the 30 days you can either file a formal complaint and a Federal District court or have a hearing with negotiations away move forward. For the few survivors there is no disclosure of the office involved with the amount of funds. Theres zero accountability and zero transparency the victim can even communicate theyre going with their family, friends or anyone in their religious community so its no wonder staffers do not seek this process at all. So one said im a single mother, i can afford to lose my job. The thought of being blackballed in this institution and being subject to this apostles, that all has an effect. Its important to move forward not just with training both a comprehensive reform of the office of compliance. I like unanimous consent to submit the letter for 1500 former members of staff in congress. If you flip to the pages youll see the range back in the 70s all the way to the current time thank you congresswoman for that very powerful and insightful testimony. The chair will now recognize Bradley Byrne for an Opening Statement. We look forward to hearing from you to know is happening in the private sector. We recognize you for five minutes. [inaudible] in 1986 sexualharassment was recognized by the Supreme Court is a violation. In 95 Congress Passed the congressional accountability subjecting us to title vii. I want to make a few observations and offer some of my own suggestions. We need to mandate harassment training. I believe the house should require mandatory sexualharassment training for all members and employees. Training, wall available to members of congress and employees is underutilized. Mandatory training of the house is not unprecedented. This multiple harassment trainings provided by different support offices. Its my opinion we should settle on one highquality training product to make sure that theyre all in the same manner. Although not required by law, creating and enforcing policies is now a universal norm in the private sector. Each individual office is an independent hiring authority and each has its own policy. Given this unique nature its my opinion that the anti harassment policy based upon the cia and applicable to all members and employees would be more effective than the current patchwork of policies we have today. With universal policy the training would be simplified and make consistent across the house. We should examine the accountability act to consider improvements. Its been over 20 years since they enacted this and i believe its not part in time to revisit. Those that govern our different than those with other employees. The e oc discriminates alexa complaints by a class. They then have the option to request mediation. But mediation is not required for either party. If its not requested that we have investigatory power. Then they have the right to bring a case upon their behalf or offer a right to sue level. In contrast, office of compliance has no authority and cannot prosecute claims. We should work to bring the oc process and authority in line with that of the equal opportunity. Other provisions would include subjecting unpaid workforce to the acts antidiscrimination. We need to be prepared to provide them the necessary appropriations. We need to increase member accountability. Member i member sexualharassment is not something working easily be applied. Its my opinion we must exercise our duty to discipline her membership. We should adopt this those send a signal that member a member sexualharassment will not be tolerated and members that support will be reported to the Ethics Committee. A settlement or judgment needs to be paid by the taxpayer, i find this unacceptable. If a member of congress settled the claim as a harasser or sound liable my belief the member should be liable required to repay such damages. Any payment for a claim should be made in the manner fully transparent. Given the inherent power of differential between the member and their staff they supervise we should include a strict prohibition under their direct supervision. I appreciate the opportunity to share my observation. Im happy to provide more information is necessary. I think you for your testimony and with the experience you bring we think you as well. This is an important issue and you have given us a lot to think about in this review process. We will excuse you and now move up. Will take just a moment to get our second panel in place. The Judiciary Committee has the attorney general is a witness so im going to excuse myself. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]. And a a whil while and then we George Washington university 1979. Shes worked at car per child in the care away since 1983. She also served as the chairman of the Mississippi Bar association. We welcome you. Gloria serves as the counsel to the office of House Employment Council and received her undergraduate degree from the State University of new york and jd at George Washington University Prior to serving as counsel to corporat corporate ay handling Employment Law in litigation for a telecommunications company. She also served as an assistant Corporation Counsel representing the district of columbia and civil litigation as a special assistant United States attorney for the district of columbia and as an attorney for the equal Employment Opportunity commission. Each witness will have five minutes to present a summary as you know to help you keep the time the light will be green and will turn yellow. For the purpose of an Opening Statement ms. Barbara. Chairman harper, Ranking Member, distinguished members of the committee of the House Administration, congresswoman and congressman burton is an honor to be here today representing not only the office of compliance to the board of directors. Other members are from new york, illinois, district of columbia and california. By the majority and minority leadership of both houses of congress we are required by the Congressional Accountability Act known as the caa to have professional expertise in the workplace that apply to the legislature by the cea in fact all five of us in the private practice have decades of experience in the private sect sector. It also requires without regard to political obligation the board has been serving since 1999 and we worked diligently in a nonpartisan manner during this time to ensure the rights of all individuals i want to thank many members of the staff finally chairman harper who happens to be the chairman of the mississippi and originally from the chicago area, but [inaudible] congress created our office in 1995 but has 13 federal workplace laws that are applicable in the private sector and executive branch to the legislative community. This designates pre primary responsibilities for the Office Although there are many other statutory functions performed in addition. We inspect the capital to ensure that its free from Health Hazards and successful to persons with qualified disabilities. We provide an alternative program to those that seek to assert their rights under the caa and also pertinent to the hearing of the office maintains a robust comprehensive Outreach Education Program to the community about their life, responsibilities and protections under the act. The board has advocated in these biannual reports for mandatory training on how to prevent and remedy harassment discrimination and retaliation of all sources of the entire legislative community is sort of training that is regularly preferring to the private sector and executive branch. Its with great satisfaction pc they are responding to the recommendation. How to respond to it and how to avoid it. Consistent with that mandate to inform and educate individuals s in the sight of branch we believe mandatory training on harassment discrimination and retaliatory behavior will provide the best avenue to not only avoid the conduct in the future that helped transform the legislative branch into the model Work Environment whereby they can and do lead by example. This concludes my remarks and i ask my extended statement that has been submitted to be included in this hearing and i look forward to any questions you might have. Thank you again. Thank you for your testimony. We will now recognize for five minutes for the purpose of an Opening Statement. I am one of the attorneys with the office of planning council. We are basically in inhouse law Firm Available to members of congress each of which is a separate endpoint of this committee to provide advice and counsel on the various issues that arise under the Congressional Accountability Act and specifically for purposes of the hearing question of Sexual Harassment. We are there as a partner with offices to help them understand the issue of Sexual Harassment when it does occur in the workplace. We have three Core Functions is hard to provide counseling, to provide training and provide a representation of litigation when employees raise claims of Sexual Harassment in the workplace is. The way that manifests itself, and i think its important to keep in mind our offices are nonpartisan and all context is confidential protected by the attorneyclient privilege so when we are called by the offices to talk about these issues i think it is a good model that they can speak frankly and we can learn the good and the bad and give them advice and counsel on how to address those issues. We talk about the legal issues but more how they can address issues and take appropriate corrective action to make sure the behavior stops. That action can range from counselingor sending an employee to training and discipline up to and including termination and there is an Accountability Office for those that engage in harassment. The other part of the role is to provide training on the request basis. The officers for example scheduled mandatory training for all new employees and all new managers and schedule directly with the office and we conduct that training. We also do training after this diminish you speak at the district offices as a followup to make sure that it doesnt happen again and redo it on a request basis for those that are proactive on these issues. We do three types of training. One is antiharassment training specifically for employees on a request basis and the educate employees about what Sexual Harassment is. We explain the behavior and have a conversation in please understand what theyve seen and how it can be unlawful and how they can report that behavior to the management so that it can be addressed. We discus discussed those issuee also discuss Sexual Harassment in the context of both training and last we do training for managers and in my view that is vitally important to be an in person training because managers have to navigate around a lot of issues in order to handle the issue of Sexual Harassment. Not only do they face claims by employees who allege harassment but they can also face claims by an employee whos been accused of harassment if the office doesnt properly investigate the issue and conduct in a fair manner so if someone is accused and they feel it was discriminatory we help officers managed that and lastly, we do represent Employment Offices in litigation would be good to the office of compliance. I want to thank you for taking the time to be here and educate us as we go through this critical review process and come up with a plan to make sure we do prevent future cases of harassment and decrease the workload in the process. At this time that members will have an opportunity to ask questions and i will begin by asking questions that start with you if i may. How important hi is counseling d take steps you have and wh why s confidentiality important during this phase . I think it is somewhat of a misnomer like an intake process. Its not therapy to the person who comes in initiating the counseling step. People who come to us most likely are not lawyers and dont know the statute necessarily. They need assistance to see if it fits in the context of the law applicable to give you a basic example if someone says i think ive been discriminated against on the basis of my age. Im 30yearsold. It doesnt cover you until you are 40 for each discrimination. Its that kind of information that is a give and take to let them know the law and also the time our office can let them know what the proceedings are into the employee can determine whether they want to go that route. Often times things are resolved very easily and appeared to. Its not meant to be a gag order. Its confidential for the office of compliance. We dont call up and say your employee has called to see us about xyz. The employee still has the ability to go out and talk to their friends and neighbors and say my supervisor has done eight dnc. We dont contact them. Its been confidentially so they can learn what the walls are. It specifically says the 30 days can be cut short at the request of the employee so if they get the information they need and say i know what im going to do the counseling and spending the last one they sell it doesnt have to be a 30 day period. Talk i if you would go to mediation phase and what percentage of cases are resolved during that part. I dont have the statistics but thats about 4 its about 4e cases during the counseling or mediation so that is a significant amount. Its very similar to mediation the congressman has seen. Its not required that the employee attend or that they sit in the same room with the person they are accusing. They can be in separate rooms. Ive done countless mediations where they may never even look at each other. They may be in separate rooms and it will go back and forth, so i think its a valid value procedure. I dont know the legislative history why congress put it in there that weve seen that it works and it doesnt have to go 30 days. If they meet together and say this isnt going to be resolved, they can cut it short and to the next process starts. On the training that you refer to you will also do in person training. How much of the human person training is done in the dc Office Versus the district offices . We do training typically when the office asks for training for the entire staff so here in dc and in the district offices. I know the office is typically contact you before. Do they contact you before taking employment actions or regarding Sexual Harassment awareness . I wish all of our clients contacted us but it doesnt always happen that way but typically does. We work with them to get to the underlining issue to find out if theres any merit to the allegation and then take appropriate corrective action. And you would usually come into the mediation phase. Are you ever contacted before or is it typically following what you hear from them . I mentioned earlier some things we know an employee is going to go to the office of compliance. What the court said as if an employer takes appropriate corrective actions designed to stop the behavior they will be insulated from liability and hostile work cases sometimes employees are not satisfied with that. As barbara mentioned the counseling phase is confidential but they can waive that and reach out to the employee. Typically we will find out about mediation when theres been an issue. The chair will recognize mr. Brady the purpose of questions. I have a question for both of you. Its important to us to participate for the benefit of the workplace. Can you speak on how it directly relates to less complaints and a better working place . I think its important employees understand what Sexual Harassment is if they have a right to come forward and they will not be retaliated against if they do so if that is what the training accomplishes. It gives them knowledge. I think that will lead to less complaints because an employer can address an issue before it becomes the process with the office of compliance. They ran into a chief of staff and she told me in her under exe shes only had one situation with Sexual Harassment and i know there are many cases that go unreported but she said it was a staffer in the office who said something inappropriate. She read him the active told him if it happenethat if it happenee would lose his job. Often times it then please are aware of these issues that can e addressed at the earliest possible stage and thats what we all want from a safe productive Work Environment and i think its important for employers to say to the employees please come tell us. When we do the training for the managers we told them how important it is to talk to employees and respond to anything you hear if someone is uncomfortable and have a conversation with them. Often they can be addressed at the earliest possible stage. I agree with everything said. One thing i want to add is training is yet another opportunity to talk the employees here is where you go if you have a problem. Therethere is an entity callede office of compliance one of the things we are hearing so much in the media is people dont know who the office of compliance is. If there is a trainer in front of you says there is an office of compliance and this is where you go to make a complaint, theres no reason why indian plea on the hill shouldnt go to er, where we are located and how to make a complaint. I would like to correct one thing i said about the remediation process if the 30 day period that cannot be waived and i misspoke on that. Most complaints are coming from volum nonmember non commie offices. How can we make staffer is comfortable speaking up about harassment or discrimination . The training ive done in my private practice can be a dialogue, can be talking about what is and is not appropriate. One thing that needs to be understood as there is illegal Sexual Harassment and there are bad practices. A complainant might not win in court with what their complaint is that they can still ruin the morale of an office and be appropriate. The in person training in particular can go into those areas of what is illegal and what is inappropriate. One thing the congressman said in his statement about having a universal policy is very interesting so everybody is working on the same page. It is important to have return policy. Theres a model policy thats part of the handbook made available to the house offices. We work with Committee Staff to develop that and that policy basically sets up the zero tolerance for this behavior and tells employees of the consequences but training is vital the important. When we do in person training, it is amazing to see how many women might have different reactions to the same conduct and when they have that dialogue it hopes to inform both groups where they are coming from and why it is problematic and unwelcome behavior. Pleased with your microphones a little closer into the chair will recognize mr. Davis for the purpose of questions i would like to thank my colleague. Powerful testimony thank you and then from barbara and susan, thank you for your comments. I dont want you to have to worry about Sexual Harassment in the workplace. One of the reasons i wanted to serve on the committee is to professionalize the house and establishing workplace grounded in respect. Any areas you suggest we need to make better because weve got to lead by example. My first question for both of you is its important we get this right and i have a staff i ask them their opinion and they were concerned an unintended consequence may be some offices may take a shortcut and not hire women as a way to avoid these issues. That isnt the right approach. How do we make sure we use this for true prevention while also continuing to make capitol hill a place of opportunity . One of the things that this tremendous is to see women as members. There is a great wealth of experience and talent and i would hope that would not be a consequence of harassment training. My office has certainly had discussions. We have heard that and have those discussions. Individuals should be hired on their merits without regard to gender but again i think its important to have training and i keep coming back to that we do training on hiring techniques but awareness is important with respect to the issue. With challenge is there facing. Im a former district staffer so out of the reach out to the district offices and how as a committee can we be helpful . One of the recommendations we have made with regard to these posters we are required by statute to develop these posters posted in the executive branch into the private sector. We hand them out and there is no wall that requires everybody to post these notices. They can go in the district offices. We do training with another outside organization and the ongoing modules of training that we have that we have been developing and are continuing to develop more and more can be taken by employees in the district offices. If an employee conduct an internal investigation what role do they play in the investigative process and are there internal investigations result . I think you mentioned some in the process . We work with the office to conduct the investigation and we give them materials that are very exhaustive. Not every Situation Requires that the learned the 25 page document on the instructions how to conduct an investigation that we work with them every step of the way. Some offices the staff is very comfortable giving an investigation but some offices are not as comfortable so what we will do is help them get the help of an outside investigator and then we will work with that office ttheoffice to figure oute appropriate corrective action. Whether or not you end up representing the harasser in mediation or not. Our client is the Employment Office, so we never represent an individual. At the end of the day, someone obviously is accused of harassment, but they are not our client, the client is the Employment Office of the member or the committee or the post office. Lets say a member is accused of harassment, you are representing the member . The office that can sometimes be the member, yes. Do you think thats appropriate . I think its appropriate given our role as inhouse law firms. We are no different than a private sector company. They have their own lawyers to represent these manners and under the Congressional Accountability Act they were supposed to experience the same thing as private sector employers so the situation is analogous. Its your job to try to resolve this so the members kept whole implement it becomes public. Do you ever find yourself saying to the victim if you pursue this your career on capitol hill is over . My office would never say that to a victim. Our role is to assist in getting to the bottom of whats going on and take appropriate action. There are corrective steps to make sure they act appropriately in those circumstances. Leadership can interject into situations as well. If you settle a case between a member and a staff member it never goes to the Ethics Committee, correct . How would you go to the Ethics Committee . They could bring the Ethics Committee and allege a member acted inappropriately. And kiss their job on capitol hill could buy. Thats not the way its supposed to work. We ensure any employee that raises the claim they will not be retaliated against because the office could be sued for retaliation. It is true though that the staff member must be in Continuous Employment to Access Services is that correct . I dont think that is correct. If they are no longer employed by the house of representatives ive been told that the office is not available to them. I dont have that information. What percentage is between members and staffers . Im sorry i cant hear because of the background noise. What percentage is between member and staff versus staff and staff . Overwhelming the mediations are staff and staff but those locations have occurred. Weve been told if you are accusing someone of sexualharassment you are required to be in the same room. Its only in cases of sexual assaults buassault but you can n separate rooms. That isnt true. You are not required to be in the same room. Typically often times we dont take the harasser. We find mediations to be more productive if we take someone else from the office and management familiar with the underlining issues. I dont find it productive to have an alleged harasser and victim of us from the table from each other. Have you ever counseled and accuser if they dont want to be in the same room the legitimacy of the complaints would be called into question . Can you give that one again . Have you ever said to him the accuser or victim who didnt want to be in the same room that in so doing it would cause you to wonder about the legitimacy of their complaint . I dont recall ever doing that. Its up to the employees council whether they want to be in the roorooms of its mouth michael the chair will recognize the congresswoman comstock. I also appreciate the testimony of my colleagues and the detailed additional things we can do with the congressman laid out and one i want to focus on is givin getting the memberse senior staff strict guidelines. We really dont have current guidelines say a sexual relationship with a 19yearold intern is offlimits. Is that at all clear right now . Steve chief of staff, interns coming to cannot have this in our office . Im not aware of anything that says that specifically but obviously the code of conduct would say member and staff should conduct themselves in a manner that reflects credibly upon the house but i dont know of a specific writing that says that. For any seinfeld fans its George Costanza where he didnt know it was inappropriate to have sex with the staff. Wouldnt you agree it creates a hostile Work Environment . No question about it. So when we are looking at a hostile Work Environment say in this example i would find another job but not every woman can do that. But then that can create a hostile Work Environment. I would hope an an employee woud feel comfortable complaining to the right people and circumstances. The way that the policy is written the employee is asked to report to the immediate supervisor and management they feel comfortable making that complaint. I appreciate you highlighting having people together. I note we had that type of thing in training and it is an important aspect of what we need here. Any additional examples perhaps it would be good to give more examples to provide some of the things we private sector or doing that would be hopefu helps we look at this and then i also want to ask about suggestions that the first woman i spoke to suggested a thin ombudsman it gets to the questions your job is what congress has told you at this point but if we are to have an ombudsman that is the victim support person that they are not to be somebody that you know what this is a criminal case you dont need mediation here, you need to deal with this legally, or heres the process and heres what you do, but have somebody that is the victims advocate. Is this something you hav that n in other workplaces . I have seen it in other workplaces and it can be a successful model. Argue telling the staff when there are criminal cases people who wouldnt go forward because they are afraid to discuss letting them know all things going on so they feel like they are not alone and can go forward to report something criminally . I can say for our office that is not our role to role is to provide guidance under the Congressional Accountability Act. But is there anybody identifying with something as a crime . Im not aware. That may be something we need to look at. I was out with the boss does happen and we need to tell them know that wasnt your fault. One of the components of the legislation that will be introduced without the victim represented by a special Victims Council much like in the military now we have created a mechanism for victims of sexual assault. But at that point, somebody having that intermediary determination like heres all ml the different places you can go, talk it out before we decide what to do so they feel like they are covered more in some way. Thats what that first 30 days is actually legally counseling. It takes place there but again i am not convinced the system protects the victim apple. The chair will recognize the gentleman from North Carolina for five minutes. Thank you for your leadership in this important issue. I am grateful to stand with such a staunch advocates to make this a respectfully and safe environment. As a ministry and pastor for nearly two decades, ive heard too many similar stories over the years. This behavior should never be tolerated here or any other Work Environment. We have gone our entire staff and chairman all 28 staffers as well as myself have gone through and are very clear in the productive training and i hope that will lead to even more. The board o board of directors o the speaker of the house reiterating the call for antidiscrimination and antiharassment training. Is it the most effective for sexualharassment . It is one component of it. I think leadership from within each office is also important and letting the employees know where they can go to complain is important in your research, arent you able to identify what you would say is the most effective component of this . Probably mandatory training. Is there anything that would be equally or part of the process . Posting these notices and letting people know who we are and where they can go is important and then leadership from the top as to what is appropriate and what is not. But also cited in the letter to the board of directors, the recommendation has been made since 1996; is that correct . I cant give you the exact number, but it is in our biannual reports that we recommend this. Can you tell m me what was it first identified in 96 or did earlier concerns get this moving . I wasnt on the board until 1999, so prior to that i cant tell you necessarily. If the committee would like, we can go back to look at the records and give you the exact dates that we made the recommendation. I have a different take. I think its a very effective process. We have lots of cases result in that process. Employment cases in general and overwhelming majority are resolved for the fullblown litigation and i think the statistic is 85 of the cases are resolved before fullblown litigation. I believe in this process. I mentioned before that once someone goes to the office of compliance and we engage in mediation, we may be hearing about the problem for the first time that we do an investigation and get to the bottom of whats going on and make recommendations for corrective action comes soon as i said, i believe in the process as it is mandated in the statute and it works effectively to address the issue just as it does for other forms of harassment and discrimination. Dot champollion yields back into the chair will recognize the gentleman from nebraska thank you to the witnesses and members for bringing insight and expertise to these issues. Weve talked a lot about the prevention competitive measures. I was wondering if you can speak to what type of resources, whether it is funding or other resources that would help empower individuals throughout these processes . I appreciate you asking that question. Let me put it in the context of the office of compliance. If we are tasked with mandatory training throughout capitol hill, right now we have two employees who work on training along with other issues and its good to be vitally important that we obtain funding to add what the figure is probably three more to help us do the training so that is one thing and also help with our it process. We are a very small office. Other things, the training we do, those are the resources that are just essential. For my office, we do a lot of training, a lot of requests in the last several weeks. We do the training here and in the district offices. We ramped up our training efforts so we have been occurring in any given da day ad he ordered additional equipment and that seems to be working very well but its also thursday to the requirement of mandatory training and i would really urge that for the management. We may also need to have additional staff to get that accomplished. The champollion yields back into the chair will now recognize congresswoman brooks for five minutes. You talked about the large majority involved issues. Can you share at what point in the process the member is important when a staffer comes hand in initiates the process when is the member brought into the process . The member is brought in from the very beginning because it can employee goes to the supervisor management thats going to go up the chain of command and the member will be informed so we will get calls from the chief of staff who will say theyve spoken with a member or we get calls directly from the member. If it involves the chief of staff we typically get the call directly from the member. But if a staffer had come in directly what you call the member if it involved the chief of staff . We dont talk directly to staffers. Thats not our goal because we are voyeurs for the office, so if a staffer calls, essentially we will encourage them to go back to their management speak to them because management can address a lot of these issues and if they are not satisfied with what had they can go to the office of compliance but the only time we talk to employees is when we do employee training. And if you do get that in query from a staff member and you do not hear from anyone after that, does anything happen . We do follow up with offices to let them know we heard from someone and there is an issue they should look at. You mentioned a large percentage of resolutions prior to litigation or in lieu of litigation. Can you give examples of resolutions . I can speak to that. If there is an allegation that a coworker is making inappropriate statements in the workplace or inappropriate texts or emails or something of that nature, we have the Office Management employees talk with both the person complaining about the behavior and the harasser to get to the bottom of whats going on and figure out what the appropriate steps may be to address the behavior that could include counseling and training, that could include training for the staff and they also include some type of disciplinary action, reprimand, suspension without pay and determination. Thank you. Anything you would like to add with respect to resolutions . Sometimes if we look at and not necessarily in the harassment context but if someone came in and said i am not afforded the same kind of training as the males in my office, it could be as easy as once the employers say we didnt know you wanted it. Yes lets get you on the next training and that is a simple resolution that doesnt require payment of money or settlement. It could be changing who your supervisor is, moving you to a different position or the alleged harasser to a different position so that there is no longer in the line of superstition. An important part of the resolution is to get back to the person who claimed to let them know the office has taken the matter seriously and has taken appropriate actions to make sure it stops and remind the individual they cant be retaliated against if there is a chance that they should come back to the management. Since im representing the Ethics Committee can you mentioned any improvements you might make relative to the coordination how the Ethics Committee and do you inform a complainant of that option of pursuing their allegation that the Ethics Committee . I am not as familiar with the procedures. I do know if someone goes to the Ethics Committee and wants to make a complaint, they most likely direct it to our office which is appropriate tha but i d welcome any kind of coordination between the Ethics Committee and office of compliance i think that would be wonderful. I would also like to say in the context of all of this we dont want to limit the training or the ethics coordination to just Sexual Harassment. There are others. It is the issue of the day he is the most important ones are strassmanstrassmann and in othes with its racial, disability that the training should also address and try to stop at nothing excites us more than the fact congress right now is looking from the standpoint of Sexual Harassment all members may submit additional questions and we will ask to respond as punk as possiblpumpedas possible to e record. I want to thank all of tha of te practices for being here today. Its a necessary step to address harassment in the workplace and the committee will continue to review the testimony given today, work with vendors and make additional recommendations to strengthen the process to ensure it includes not only the members of congress and their offices but all the officers of the house, the architect of the capitol police, all these have to be included. All these things are included. This type of behavior cannot be tolerated. Raising the awareness today we should set the standard and this is the first step of getting their. Without objection. You said this is an uncomfortable thing for us to do. I have a wife, daughter, to greatgrandfathers come it is our responsibility and obligation so thank you for your courage. Without objection, the hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] secretary of state criticized Russian Foreign policy and accused the government of malicious tactics including computer hacking against the u. S. And european countries