Transcripts For CSPAN Discussion 20240704

A number of journalists and academics took part in a discussion on free speech and due process on college and university campuses. The event, from the National Press conference is about an hour and 10 minutes. Minutes. Welcome to our presentation on the on social network. This is organized by the lafayette group, campus reform and by organization, foundation for individual rights and expression. Counsel, a little bit about where you come from, free speech and due process and Higher Education for the past 25 years and expanded our mission to move beyond free speech on College Campus issues but in the years weve been addressing these questions, as a common theme and one thing we found campus freedom has declined direct proportion of the penetrative class. Thomas jefferson wrote men are endowed. Among these are life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. It seems odd campuses are where these principles go to die particularly pursuit of happiness. One example in my book, a mentioning only because my publisher told me never to pass an opportunity so in the eye of the beholder, what i mentioned in passing in 2017 at the university were the school did a fundraiser imposed by fertility and title that been and was pop song for administrators claim it was insensitive appropriation and as the assistant director, i went to continue to encourage a culture of controversy among great loops and suggested staying away from anything that involved gender, culture or sexuality. Apparently feeling empowered, they cant the event. These are the kinds of things we are on. University campuses and that is the theme we are going to explore, the rise of bureaucracy campuses tends to be the values of expression, due process and fun so this morning we have a terrific panel of speakers to address those issues that will fit into it. 2022 Stanford University and former reporter for the review currently either of the magazine where she wrote an article in conversation called war on social life. 2022 graduate University Associate podcast editor. She is a reporter for the des moines register. Her article on these issues stanfords war against its own students. Well talk about these issues in general but also focus on these panelists at stanford. Next, we have doctor marshall, Professor University of kentucky as well as editor in chief campus reform. The Higher Education academically speaking. Radical ideas originating in academia affect americans daily lives. Doctor mcguire fellow and campus reform of the American Council alumni where he writes podcast speaks on Academic Freedom of contemporary campus issues. And initiatives and the director of the ryan center for preinstitutions and associate teaching professor in the program and university. I do want to take this in three parts and then will get to questions from the audience. First, the general atmosphere on campus and Higher Education experience we can explore a little bit. What challenges in terms of due process are students facing these days . One thing that motivated me to write the article on how the administration was destroying, i noticed how a lot of were internalizing failure of College Experience so it is very Diverse School we have kids coming in from all over the country, its more than the traditional schools going different ways and theres this patchwork of social groups that covers each who comes on campus so Sorority Life you have coop experience, theme houses that cover different groups and the result is every student would find a subgroup third find their identity on campus and they were rich and meaningful and what was happening was the administration was slowly chipping away so you have for chernihiv of the incident of a party, no place in the house that served as Cultural Center for a certain kind of person with a generic house by students who have nothing in common and when you do this again and again, you go 30 to 50 like ten and everyone else in these groups that push into this category of not being able to find connections on campus, isolated campuses around school so instead of recognizing this as an administrative issue, being suppressed by the administration for you have a social group being destroyed, kids would come in and struggle because the group had been created had been destroyed and blame it on a failure like im having a bad experience. Im lonely, these are objective experiences, you dont have anywhere to go at night or community you feel safe. And then kids would come lonely and depressed you can see in the mannerism and body language, is a weird thing, they are not spending a lot of time at school so when they have freedom of expression, and has devastating selfesteem issues where they feel of the american college, when you inhibit them to find people like themselves, it inhibits that identity formation because they dont learn where i fit, i dont fit in anywhere there is always this on and what we are seeing with the administrative state, is inhibiting the ability to express themselves in terms of hiding i didnt see and thats what i said light on and you cut down the number of parties and campuses and not produce these areas and the student body. High levels of depression among students currently college age so you are talking of the restrictions on the. Has that been your experience . When campus was fun how would you describe this today . s detailing what happened at stanford, my look was more the perspective of due process and through the own process and the think has a profound impact so i wrote a story on stanford students and he is the president of virginity for a party and the university investigated for allegedly serving alcohol to at least one person under the age of 21. The university hired outside counsel to conduct the investigation but the student who is in my place so we working on fraternitys defense. He was really struggling about life in college and his work was finishing and had to drop out as a result. There was a huge impact and to get more insight, there are two types of investigations that can be done. Over 400 students under these two laws. 97 of those investigations were about undercooked or they were cheating investigations. What happens is of the university of six months to conduct an investigation before you decide whether or not to file formal charges after that six month deadline the University Filed 201 formal charges that year. Out of those 201 students who were formally charged, only five were found not guilty. So this process that i investigated, what many of my people told and what this data shows is theres this process stacked against the students pick the university inside and outside counsel risk students to have representation of their own and lest they can afford to go get somebody else to help them through this process. It can take months, they can take so much physical energy, mental energy, focus them away for the classes, wherefrom social experience at college at all. Many of the courses i spoke to both students and alumni are saying they dont want universities to make it easier for students to cheat theyre not trying to create an environment which is easy to cheat and cheating is rapid of the elves whatever process thats fair to students and also whatever process in which students feel like they are respected and appreciated. They are presumed innocent before proven guilty. These basic values after process are completely thrown out the window Distribution System implemented by the University Expert thank you. I want to make this more of a conversation among the panelists so let me bring dr. Marschall and dr. Mcguire into the spirit let me ask each of you, is this discussion of whats going on currently on campus by people who are there e recently that i was consistent with what you have seen . And if so, if or if not, hows it . Yeah, there were, the problem in my opinion this phenomenon we have a cadre of zealous bureaucrats in the deans office, in the offices that come up with every social crisis and demonstration that reads other culture wars can contribute you see that being reflected in the personnel that is being created on College Campuses here in the reason that youre seeing the lack of due process or a kind of marginalization or limitation of violent is because these bureaucrats are the beneficiaries of spending that never goes down even when you have public universities, having to cut back especially post covid. The money and resources they get are far disproportionate to the more poor academic subjects. With those resources and infrastructure, the problem becomes if theyre trying to manage interdiction pick the same thing universities are treating students like their children and through the lowering of academic standards and through positions like chief experience officer which is something that the university of utah is posting for this year, trying to hide what i looked into it. I dont see the difference between that job and a cruise director on the cruise ship. But thenceforth one side of the contradiction with the other side is the also the same time see them as children they require them to be perfected molded adults. You have response teams, speech codes that punish penalize and seek out students if they make the tiniest infraction, the tiniest mistake. The same time youre treating 18yearolds like children you are also not giving them the room in time for them to grow into adulthood which is what college was supposed to be about, and in that messy state experience was the fun sport i agree with zach the entrance of the general picture overall in Higher Education what we see is costs are going up while the quality of education freedom to express yourself and intellectual diversity are all going down. In terms of quality of education just for example, if you look at active, but with project which evaluates the core requirements, stanford get a d. Thats, tickets, many of our elite institution for the donation of the students graduating from the institutions, met with a kind of wellrounded robust education you would want somebody to after entrance of Free Expression on campus i find stories from francesca and ginevra, its shocking but not surprising is how i will put it. The bureaucrats are one of the chief problems in the ratchet goes in one direction. They just keep growing. They multiply. Work for themselves. When you dont have enough of the real work to do things that other things to do. I think of things like the elimination of harmful Language Initiative at stanford where they wanted to outlaw the use of all sorts of language that people deemed offensive. Maybe they should have fewer people on staff who are attending to actual idea issues and that they wont have time to read about the kind of language people using. In terms of the Student Experience that bureaucrats, these are often people who have quite a bit of contact with students your First Contact h students to think about new Student Orientation students are getting their first ascent of what is going to like on campus, whats the culture, what are the expectations. They have these programs that are run by nonstructural staff get a lot of these people are totally in the tank for things like diversity equity and inclusion. They want to control how people think. They are coddling students enter the students pick up on that. I think to some degree they have this influence in students were students themselves start to think in these terms so fire wednesdays campus of research service. We set stanford about 60 of students report censoring themselves at least occasionally. You look at on the other hand, they are also inclined to send to others or to shut down speech that they dont like. Where our Students Learning this behavior . People are not naturally born thinking this way. They pick it up somewhere. I think the bureaucrats are a large problem. They are growing and they really get the hooks in the students. Ive heard them say before at other institutions they really think of themselves as the primary educators of the students but let me ask you about that because its been true for a number of years on many campuses the number of administrators outnumber faculty. On some campuses there are as many administrators as to our students or more. Whats your sense of the numbers of those kinds of questions . I mean, at stanford they have a bureaucrat for every two students. Thats double the average of other r1 institutions where they have a bureaucrat for every four students the average across higher ed is at one bureaucrat for every ten students. Which is already insanely high, in my view. Then you look at these elite institutions they are even worse than stanford is at the very top. Compared to faculty where you maybe have one faculty member for every 16, 20, 30 students. So this way my bureaucrats oncampus than our faculty members did you hear people say things like its almost like theres a personal butler for every student on campus. Its not far from true. Wouldnt be bad to have a personal butler. Let me ask you, is that true in your experience as well . Who are the worst offenders in this regard . The worst offenders as far as the bureaucrats are the, what i see its like if you want to look at the offices or any other type of bureaucrat that couldve been it was done in a more responsible economical and institution, Human Resources division pick you almost have to justify your own paid by the number of students you persecutor we see a number of students get in trouble for things that dont warrant that kind of infraction that could be from how fraternities might advertise their parties before covid there was a frat that use politically incorrect language that wasnt exactly respectful but it wasnt illegal. It wasnt harmful. They were all suspended until someone in the Bureaucratic Administration found out that it was constitutionally protected speech, that we have no standing to the subject think about the man hours that go into these almost like rabbit holes when you look for students who maybe dont always act the way they should if they were fully informed adults, think about how much time is wasted on track to persecute them rather than trying to help them or make sure theyre having a formative experience. You mention the response to covert. Let me ask for and what an francesca about of you two attended college during the covert years which is for the rest of us almost impossible to imagine going to college during that kind of experience. How did it affect you and how does it tie into these issues . So its actually, covid was a wakeup call and transiting significant event experience in my time at stanford. One of the reason i was inspired to write this piece isnt doingg covid a lot of good start like living together in houses offcampus and i was living in a group house with a bunch of kids who were like two or three years older and they had friends who were alumni and the alumni committee. Previous id only known kids in my own grades like most kids at stanford are there asking e questions like so do you do exotic erotic . Like is a seminaked party stanford used to do. Do do full nude on the quad . You have particular nouns, all these things . No, no, no there really reframed my College Experience being very abnormal witches everyone thinks the College Experience is normal, 18 go to a new school you have no sense of the moors and i think that something these schools take advantage of a lot is the kids took over so fast that as long as you can like make a change and implement it to be clean before freshman class they will have the idea this is what college is. This is what stanford princeton whatever school youre going to is like. That was a lick of cult and also the experience of living offcampus by myself being able to go to my own social events. That felt much ironically for your even under lockdown than the sort of very restrictive experience on campus to what they did at stanford is while students were offcampus for covid and going to get this completely clean slate of people coming back with little institutional experience, the use that as an opportunity to make very, very unpopular changes at stanford the houses monopoly pretty controversial 50 of the class rushed but it was not lightly discussed and only 20 of the class was in greek life because there were not that many greek houses the they had these theme houses that were like french italian german slavic cows and they would host sort of fancy dinner party type events for upperclassman that was very like aboveboard and respectful and the kind of engagement you would like on the College Campus to universally popular, number one right College Housing not have gone over locally to try to get rid of these. When the kids were offcampus with a slash of those and rename those to the addresses. They also got rid of outdoor house on i think the quote was that was upholding harmful standards of outdoor kids in america which is one of the finest sentences ive ever read. Which have been the second Stanford Institution very representative, particular types of stanford students the valves of the university. They got rid of that. I think, for a lot of these schools was an opportunity for them to show their true colors where when they have a blank slate to experiment with the new group of students who were not going to complain because significant expectations of living in french house, whatever they did and what does work, were able to come back and if interesting for me as a freshman i had been getting the sort of side comments and lectures from underclassmen when i would be like im going to party at 550 may be like thats not 550, thats a fraternity. With distant distantt thats what they told me, shut up. I found myself in a position of giving those in talks to younger students were i would be like that house used to be the italian house and it was so fun every pizza night in the south who used to do, sophomores and juniors, they would be like that sounds really fun, whatever the they never experience that. Dont have those times. For a lot of schools in the guise of cold restrictions but also getting the fresh batch of students who did have expectations and they give lower expectations because they were coming from their parents houses and grateful to be allcaps\all caps. It was an opportunity to further degrade the experience and yeah, just sort of further care at things that otherwise might have been controversial without the object of students protesting and completing a potential organizing. Francesca did you have a similar experience at princeton . I did watch my College Experience to totally transform before my own eyes but i came in 2018 and left in 2022 part when that it felt like a very different place. It still felt like college commencing the College Experience is totally gone especially during the covid 19 pandemic when princeton did bring students back on the campus you did see the administration expand and their influence and everything aspect of student life even more so than they had before. I do think it was a Good Opportunity for them to do that. Things were so tensed on campus that kids would barely leave the room pic you are not allowed to have more than two people in your own room 50 readily massed outside, so many rules in the name of Public Health on campus but i saw students, for example, one of my friends is having a picnic with somebody in one of the quads and somebody reported that there was an anonymous reporting system picked somebody reported inviting a picnic that there were at the mast and they were to close outside together he was investigated for that that person he was picnicking with was his roommate. There in the room together without the masks. We did see incidences like that regularly felt the president of the administration and everything that you did everything for me talk about mental health, this idea of constantly having to think and evaluate every decision you make on a College Campus about whether or not that will get you into trouble. Think about how emotionally taxing that is just data to estimate 18, 19, 20yearold plaintiff figure at your own life, finisher problems that before class but it is a lot for students to have to do with and think about and also think just potential simple mistake could impact the rest of their lives. Thats really scary for young kid who is just going to college here. It doesnt sound like college to me that we were quite a bit about stanford so far because of your work on the plate he met po on i want to focus more on that in the second and really just ask how do we know stanford hates fun . Author that open to whoever who would care to answer. For me it was stanford hates fun movement. I think, i never said explicit like stanford hates fun or stanford, i never use that language but it was more like almost an ode to find it i was trying to be entered bring fine back as a value for what i found super fascinating is i alluded to this earlier was that whenever the others expected it to be very, very, very unpopular because it was not considered appropriate at the time on campus. Even if you were involved with greek life or were involved in one of these remaining more like exclusive social spaces, you could kind of go to it and you could have fun but you werent supposed to defend the institution as being valuable. You had this weird dichotomy where students were incredibly stressed because the divergence between the capitalist experience and being in one of these groups and not was so drastic because there was so little social safety net that we are stressed whether or not they would be able to live in a house with other kids their age or put into this scary place invoking bureaucratic housing which is what happened at stanford if you dont sort of get into one of the remaining social institutions. I wanted to kind of try to write a defense of the specific social groups and avenues to operate but i started to see very public is never anyone argue before. When peace came out it resonated so much and i got all these notes from students and alumni really from existin talking about how there is integrated in that way, or they did not find institutions valuable or they had all these institutions that have declined, and for me that was really striking, because i my hypothesis had been that students did seem to like these things, and they just had abouty were trained to specific language. So many words to describe the various ways the institutions were and 90 describe the benefits that a student could get from a hyper specific social group. I kept saying how it was her instructive as a writer and journalist, like to see how people can be having this experience without the ability to articulate without having that specific language better in terms of how, stanford hates fun when you sent people coming up and say yes xacto i feel. Ive i cannot baynote put myr on what it was. That has comical to see this stanford hates fun Movement Come out because it has been vindicating up what he wanted to say in this internet with a large percentage of the population. Looking at the tightly between the bureaucrat, bureaucratic mind and Free Expression, was it the student who performed as the mascot for stanford suspended for holding up a sign that said stanford hates fun . Just what i find ironic standard is they are so interested in their image, the very image of conscious school. I think the optics of banning the mascot for saying stanford hates fun obviously is not going to go over very well but he seemed really committed to doing that. That again and i think a question i always circle back to some of the stuff is why . You understand minimize liability, that i think for all of these schools rely so much on the strength of the replication editing for a school like that i dont understand first why theyre trying to destroy many other traditions that brought students to stanford and were anyways a Competitive Edge over similar schools that didnt have the same reputation of being fun or fostering wellrounded students and also why after, a pretty significant slate of press calling out these actions they really just double down except for like a couple pretty sort of highlevel statements that theyre going to like him started like a bureaucratic office to study Student Experience, like the ministry of fun. I really, i honestly do not have an answer. Its going to get things like this difficult thing with a cut on this mission and now they dont want to admit theyre wrong and they cant stop, some other administrative penalty were not privy to. That to me particularly seems like very obvious pr messed up on us and i dont know why they would do the spirit francesca and tremblant talk about things like surveillance, being afraid to speak, lest you make a mistake that will ruin your whole life. The idea of Harm Reduction or that people are perpetuating harm by the language they use. This is exact everything we hear about in the sort of Free Expression space. In general. Stanford hates fun the bureaucratic, we can see how that is affecting academic life at the institution as well. Just in the past year stanford hosted a conference that got quite a deal of press on freedom last fall and other faculty at University Posted the fact there were even holding this conference. In december stories about the elimination of harmful Language Initiative which already mention start to blow up. Then people start paying attention to the protected identity harm reporting system which is essentially a Bias Response Team that allows for anonymous reporting of people. They say its not going to be an investigation, that participation is voluntary. But whats happening behind the scenes . Do people on campus know whos involved in the incident . How strong is the invitation to participate . Are there other ways one might face consequences even if not officially . Of course most people will be familiar with the shout down of judge duncan at Stanford Law School where one of the administrators the associate dean for di intervened and asked somewhat infamously now is the jews worth the squeeze . Is your Free Expression worth the harm that youre causing by being here . In terms of the overall portrait that you get looking at stanford is that there is an extreme degree of desire to sort of control and police what people say, the way people think. This is a broad problem in Higher Education. Stanford stands out in a bad way in the last year and thats unfortunate because stanford is obviously one of our most elite institutions in this country and it has an opportunity to set patterns, to be a leader other institutions will look to places like stanford or princeton do and they want to be like that if this is what they see stanford doing is it any surprise we see other institutions all across the country doing the same kind of thing . Last everyone think we spent our entire time dumping on stanford, to its credit its precedent and dean of the law school apologize to judge duncan and ultimately said the students needed to have mandatory education on what freedom of expression means and the dean that would be an online hris video treatment that at ths enough to participate in. Fifteen to did interrupt judge duncan with her own speech was ultimately suspended. Dr. Marschall, where would you place stanford among the universities that you survey, that you observe . Are they test case for the rest of the country . Already leading the pack or pretty typical . Its definitely probably one of the most egregious most public most prolific universities we have here as far as an example of whats going on in Higher Education but i dont think whats going on in college and universities is a class phenomenon its happening across the board. To me the problem is you can can almost see the problem play out when you go beyond greek life including student clubs and organizations, and you can see if someone at 18 going through that process winds up in the lecture hall with a shout down judge duncan and was supported by the dean. You have fun it is been politicized what i mean is usually disproportionate almost unanimously at state schools, at small private liberal arts colleges, that its much easier for students and organizations to get registered to host events and invite speakers. When it aligns with administrators, they have to prove it. Conservative clubs have to pay security fees, liberal organizations dont conservative clubs get canceled on or they get denied funding. Not only that but you also need a faculty advisor to be able to get registered to do the club and only register as an organizations access and eligibility funding spaces on campus and resources that those organizations outlined with the prevailing orthodoxy on campus get relatively easily. Their student organizations like at Miamidade College at university of arkansas and elsewhere across the country where they have a conservative and and they cannot form officially because no faculty member will be there advisor. Faculty members get pressure from their colleagues and from these bureaucrats were talking about. What happens is you have these 22yearolds, for graduate and to think im entitled if i am part of the leftist politics that aligns with these bureaucrats, that people like me at our space is completed to protest, we get to have our voices heard. These other people doubt. You have the same kind of lack of funds lack of Free Association on the right but across the board what you see is people whether its left or right they dont learn how to tolerate their friends but they dont learn how to learn from others and adult learn how to think critically. When you get into that space with judge duncan you people that never have learned to think critically and debate only how to shout and to grant some out. People like the dei dean got suspended enabling that behavior. Where do we go from here . I take again, again taking for example, at stanford where the dean was ultimately suspended. Is that the countertrend in a positive direction . You see more of that happening, what is the course that we are following what should we do now . I see the trend, to me it mimics trickle down, seeing a lot of good positive change tactic that the trustee level, administrative level but not make an impact on the daytoday life on the students within the classroom or in the general campus to experience. At chapel hill, who happens is indicative of what happens elsewhere. Ever since you had that fiasco with jones rejecting initially given her tenure, they have done somewhat of about facebook they have approved a school of civic leadership and Free Expression, and asked, after a Syrian Government decided no money to prolife groups, the trustees came out and passed a resolution affirming their neutrality. Mercy mercy positive changee level but the reality is daytoday, no, that resolution makes no impact on students. It doesnt augment their Campus Experience when the going to class and gripe about what they dont like the teachers are going to enable the viewpoint that led the Syrian Government president to say no money for prolife groups. I think were seeing change at the very top level in the right direction. Theres hope but is not yet helping the students. To add onto that, at Stanford University when we think about the judicial process the commission an internal review of that process they took the steps to figure out what is this process how is it working and that review released its findings publicly filed judicial process at stanford was the physical not educational and overly punitive. But instances we seen at stanford since the investigation i wrote about in my own piece, those all happen under new reforms that the university administered. We are seeing administrators come together and say we need to talk about these issues, talk about moving forward but we are not necessarily see reforms implemented that are making a difference that is positive for student life. But do you take encouragement from the reaction that you and ginevra had to the articles you wrote and argosy not just the trustee and supervisor level but at all levels for those who are reading your accounts . Are you encouraged by that . I am. To some degree a lot of, trying to admit whats happening at university today goes towards whats really actually happening and so thats why i believe in the power of journalism fundamentally. I do think sharing the stories of what students are going through is very impactful, particularly with alumni through those stores and think about how different that was from their own experience there that can be really powerful part its a matter of continuing to tell these stories, continuing to talk to students and let them really air their grievances, talk about what they think would make their experience better and were, in fact, will and more fruitful. Rather than focus on some of the negative examples of i to ask dr. Marschall and dr. Mcguire, what schools are doing it right . Who is serving as the model for what school should be doing in Higher Education in the space . I think most universities do have some difficulties but the first one that comes to mind is the university of chicago which of course is famous for his sister chicago statement of freedom of expression as well as the calvin report which argues for institutional neutrality, the idea the University Shall not officially take positions on social and political issues of the day and thats starting to get more traction University North carolina has adopted third, which is very important as well is that shills report which says faculty should be appointed and promoted only on the basis of merit. Merit in Teaching Research and intellectual service to the community. I think about one thing that falls afoul of it is used for things like diversity dei statements, mandatory dei statements in high regard and that the school that is doing some good things, Purdue University a few years ago they decided theyre going to change what theyre doing another new Student Orientation program and they have an excellent sort of Free Expression freespeech program that offered students with the first step foot on campus they have not implemented yet but just recently a report came back from a president ial passport at university of wyoming implementing or recommending the school and flip a number of points that would improve Free Expression on campus we have we call our Gold Standard for freedom of expression which is a list of 20 things we think the collegeo to improve the conditions for Free Expression on their campus this proposal from the university of wyoming hits quite a few of them if they were to adopt most of the proposals in this Task Force Report they would instantly be one of the best universities in the country in terms of their policies for Free Expression. Of course as is already been mentioned university of north, and i agree they are doing Amazing Things down after people should look at what they are doing and follow them. Dr. Marschall. I think as far as experience for administration, Hillsdale College is probably ideal at this point that you have a few good things coming out of university because what trust is it done, with the covers have been for both trustees, Governor Abbott for the university of texas us are getting rid of dei program, also the college of florida but as far as whos doing it right i would say desperate feeling when i can think of it hillsdale. Because so much of what people think of to limit positive change for students, there still that barrier between the bureaucracy, the administration within the curriculum and what is being peddled by these radical professors. Okay. Let me ask this question to the group in general because reducing movement in both directions on universities, some in favor of more freedom and freedom of expression, others in the opposite direction. Does it trickle down . For example, at the university of chicago with a mostly have university of chicago principles, do you think, continuing, and whether or not students there feel more free to voice unpopular opinions under that regime that at other universities . Thinking a lot recently, theres enormous public, a lot of public emphasis and focus and coverage of these schools are i think that the social experience, social side of college is important. One of the reasons we are seeing so many bureaucrats at these schools is because like the chief experience officer. Theres so much discussion, so much focus on what is happening at the schools and also outside of academic elements of School Spirit so i do think sometimes there were ironically less discussion of these issues and less discussion of sort of subjective experience happening outside of the schools and return to the traditional academic model what its like the school, college his bicycle as an 18yearold to go to school and what happens outside of school is not under the purview of administrators i think you could see some kind of reduction in these issues get ironically a model and look to about this the british system but were academically focused model when school is seen as less responsible for providing this sort of massive cruiseship of clubs and activity f social structures and houses, with the kids self organize and go and have a good time there is much less oversight of whats happening to them outside of class. I keep thinking about a change in american schools. I do think that it will be difficult to make any kind of change under these conditions because you do get something kind of like the committee what its like to talk about francesca the review of the process. As long as her so much emphasis on the students really who are just 18yearolds try to go to school and have fun with her friends outside of school, and her so much hyperfocus on the students, its very difficult to maneuver and not at mr. With her so much tension and what theyre able to say and not say and you get a lot of pressure from the outside to build up the systems get when you think about a place like chicago, i have a couple friends, i think it does matter but what matters most is the kids have a culture on campus feeling like their actions are not under so much scrutiny. Do these attitudes necessarily come from the top, top down from the administrators to the students or our younger Students Entering College with an emphasis on safety insulin and avoiding offense and the students themselves advocating for restricting the viewpoints and freedom of speech of their fellow students . Theres certainly studies that show by the time students get to college and university their attitudes already stricter Erica Kaufman who is been writing about how these attitudes are set when they arrived and remained set after they leave their its troubling because now theyre moving into professions like journalism. We hear stories about lawyers not wanting to take cases because they disagree with the views of the client or the wall street journal has just published a piece about how with the increasingly difficult for people to find a counselor or a therapist because therapists dont want to work with people whose views they disagree with. Its a real problem. We need to act, do something about it in terms of what can be done from the top down, i would think adopting chicago principles or a present to Free Expression intellectual diversity, that signals the people, if theres something about the culture of the place, says something about the expectations of the place. If the president of your University Staff are in public setting we are going to maintain institutional neutrality, all views no matter how paradoxical they are would be welcome on this kempster i would help people feel free to speak. Of course just adopting a statement isnt enough that you need to back it up with all sorts of practices and of the policy desperate and education, shorter eventually what you need is unique cultural change that cultural change has to start somewhere. As another example think of the reaction to the recent scotus case on affirmative action the response of higher ed has almost been univocal to politically oppose it. That tells you something about the difficulty of cultural change. The american public, a majority of americans against affirmative action scotus does against affirmative action College Admission but College Admissions officers remain firmly in favor of it. We focus on donors, alumni, trustees. What i would say it is if you aint one of those categories which many people are, many people are allotment of a college, you should think about what is your college doing. If youre a do what i think using the money for quest if you are a trustee, trustees, you get upward as a trustee its an honor to theres a tendency to think trustees are supposed to be university boosters you go, rubberstamp a bunch of documents a few times a year and then you get a glut to a nice dinner maybe to a Football Game played basketball game. Trustees have a fiduciary duty to these institutions appear they should be considered to uphold the Historical Mission of the institution they should be look at the curricula. They should be looking at the finances in terms of what ginevra was talking about, one of the best things we could do is shrink the size of the bureaucracy on campus substantially if youre a trustee of a university why dont you ask how much money is being spent on noninstructional staff at your institution and ask what are these people doing good how many of them do we really need . And you have the right and responsibility to ask those questions, and a the board of trustees has the authority to do something about it. Thank you. We have just a few minutes left for questions from the audience if you have a question let me know andrew will come over and give you a microphone to speak into your when you take your turn identify yourself and your affiliation, and please keep the questions brief to make sure that what you say has a question or at the end of it and will allow panelists to answer it. Any questions . Right here. Ill start. Thank you so much for a great epic my question is for ginevra and francesca picked you d several examples from stanford and other institutions. Both wrote about the example at the fraternity getting kicked off campus that the recent death of katie meyer. Both cases they like all the different examples of these schools have doubled down on what they are doing for my question is why are they doing that . What can be done to change that went into lamont or other stakeholders to helping reverse the course . Thank you. I think through my reporting i have found that ginevra said this earlier, that universe should have a keen interest in preserving their repetition. Thats a big part of it i think universities particularly at stanford many of the people i spoke to talked about the proctor scandal be being a huge turning point, preserving its image and looking into student life and what students were doing and how they could be more involved in data. And so i dont necessarily have solutions. Passengers i often look at the problem but i do think that risk is a huge part of it. When something is not under the control of university it is inherently a question here in front. Thank you. No, chief operating operator of an insurer, captive insurer in Higher Education space but im a former University Vice president , one of me which left the field as i think about this and i appreciate dr. Mcguire your remark regarding the role on curious about your role of faculties that administers content and cooper faculty articulate faculty and trustees have control of the institutions but entries rather than focus on administrators im curious about your perspective of the role of faculty, faculty tenured. Thank you for a question forn shared governance is an important principle in american Higher Education and faculty, while they have seen their power decrease relative to high level administrators over the years, they still do wield a good deal of power. There is a lot of room for faculty to push back and improve the situation under kempster one of the heartening things about stanford in particular is that the faculty are pushing back or at least some of them. They hosted a conference on Academic Freedom. With the elimination of Language Initiative came into the news, people like Russell Berman spoke out and they said this is bureaucrats run amok your we need to do something about it we need to return control to the institution to the faculty. There is a lot faculty can do. On the other hand, one of my concerns is that faculty themselves are often one of the chief causes of liberalism intolerance on campus and theres not a lot of room to hope thats going to change dramatically in the near term of course i hope it will and hope it will in the long term but similar to what i was saying about the response to the stores affirmative action case in the case of administrators, you see the same thing with a lot of faculty. We are living in a moment where there was new data posted by gallup the other day, new survey results that show americans confidence in Higher Education has dropped to an alltime low of these sensitive and pulling it which i think is back to the 90s the theres plenty of reasons. One is the cost of education relative to the benefits in terms of the sound of the job you will get in that sort of thing. I think ideology is big part of it as well. Theres a disconnect between what faculty think as a group generally and how they see the world, and now the average american sees the world here and so far the response of faculty generally has been to dig in and want to vindicate themselves. And i think they need to wake up and realize that they are, they are confusing their ideology and expertise. Faculty of expertise they have things to offer us. Thats obvious but too often they think that they are ideological or political expert in addition to being scientific experts so i do have less hope about the faculty sort of on their own turning things around but i think if you get students speaking up, if you have a minute faculty something to do that, think about Heterodoxy Academy and members of that organization at the draft alumni who are sick look im going to withhold by phone enter do something about this idea because i love this institution i want to be a better version of itself, if you have trustees who are really to look at the books and ask the hard question and you media focusing attention right delete all of that together can have an effect. We have time for two final questions to one in the back. Good morning my name is dr. Paul. I work with dr. Mcguire your compelling thoughts so far dr. Mcguire has already discussed very briefly the role of alumni on this matter i very intrigued by this davis and this blocks experience recently and entries based on your own personal research and experience what cant alumni do to support students in these environments and strive to encourage if not apply additional pressure to make sure universities and colleges have highquality, affordable education and experience . I think in my experience at one of the best things on them i can do is stay involved with the student groups on campus. Alumni can provide an important perspective of the group used to be like and also provide perspectives for students on kind of what was formerly typical for the College Experience. I think that when a lot of what the schools do thrive on destroying institutional memory. Kids get first class of 18 euros can move from out of state can have no since College Experience is supposed be like and they were very, very, very quickly internalize the notes of their institution and thus their given alternatives. One of the things i saw was what a powerful for other stanford students, who i knew in my dear, ones who had relationships with alumni who were successful outside of the school and held similar views to them or had a similar perspective on the institution, i think that enabled a lot of them to go through, stay strong independent f you left out on campus and understand that they were not so unusual or these experiences theyre having on campus that aspect like didnt make them crazy or bad. And that also help them keep the tradition in their organizations alive we have an alumni group that is a hey this is something we used to do for you guys should do this, do this, you will do that trick thats crazy for you guys should push back to you guys to be a little crazy. We were crazy. Having those casual relationships relp with alumni and casual relationships with students and letting them know the experience theyre having is that normal everything thats something we were in this flex point met with universal experience is really, really important because what i see is actually the biggest threat to these schools kind of returning to normal. Do you think the majority of student population wants to have the kind of classic College Experience that was really my experience at stanford, very vocal minority that is speaking out against five and social groups, sort of a more engagement. The biggest threat is really once you destroy social fabric in the tradition and norms of the schools is very difficult to rebuild them without the institutional memory like you destroy the tradition, you cant just bring it back five years later if people dont have that like senior to junior to freshman to soccer memory like the alumni sting of all the students and providing that, like one who provides that, clarifying outside perspective about what your are yo, is it normal, how youre responding to is normally find this is what College Experience should be can make that for yourself to do outside the bounds and also providing role models for kids, understanding their flight outside of the experience theyre having in college and that they should feel free to continue to try to explore themselves in the fullest capacity they can be can support them like with the school is trying to show them is possible. Francesca, how would you say alumni can help . I think ginevra described robert many of the alumni i spoke to for my reporting talked about getting involved with their organizations they were part of on campus. It was a valuable experience both for the alumni and the students, and i think that students can learn from alumni that are role models. They can encourage students to push back against the administration and to try to regain that aspect of student life. I feel grateful having gone to princeton. I think it has a long alumni connection. Also do on the alumni to reach back out to the students can reach back out to those organizations get involved and ask them how they can help, organize social events things like that to keep that connection alive. If i could add really quick, i just want to mention theres also a group that formed in recent years the alumni freespeech alliance, and they are an organization of alumni freespeech groups at campuses around the country. People come to look that good Public Education sting in touch with groups were involved with while your student on campus this is another important set of groups people can look to drunker kind of stanford n the focus of freespeech and critical thinking. One final question. Right over here. Thank you so much. I appreciated the name is elizabeth and im an editorial internet the american spectator. My question on going to direct to dr. Marschall and dr. Mcguire. I am just curious as to the efficacy of promoting values free are values neutral institutions sit sentencinge the takeover over freespeech platforms in particular have been by the left and i think a lot of conservatives operate under the assumption that the left is operating under the same rules that we are, in fact, now there promoting i. Now they are banning speech on campus is. Im just curious is this something that is something we can reserve for the future and are there any policies in place to make sure that it truly is values neutral like we are hoping it will be . Thank you. I think the key to that is actually something we talked about, thats whats going undergraduate programs because the graduate students are the teaching assistants and instructors for this first year seminars that are systematically pushing like the great qus curriculum to push the core curriculum we used to have and replace with eei driven curricula. There is a lack of curiosity that is debilitating and graduate programs across the country especially Research Universities where people go to study things that conform with identities are part of the identities. If theres a way for trustees or administration to somehow that, or look at how graduate faculty and graduate students are like the self reproducing pool of grievance driven scholars the lack of curiosity about other people and you can reverse that trend then you can introduce viewpoint neutral values back into universities. One thing i always ily whenever i talk about this topic is that doesnt mean we are not going to talk with marxism, agree or disagree. It means were going to help people understand the specter of debate and help them learn how to think about those things critically. To me thats what a true viewpoint neutral education looks like. Yeah, so i mean for one thing i would distinguish between private execution of Public Institutions but you can have different visions for what a university to be an out and out to characterize itself. I would say certainly with Public Institutions they are beholden to the First Amendment, right . We should have as neutral an institution as possible that sticks to the First Amendment you are right that we cant be naive about the politics involved in the politics that afflict our universities to where they are today but i think we need to distinguish between what we bought our universities to be, and we are pursuing, and that means we need to use to get a therapeutic name we need to select try to use those needs in the principal way that will get us to that enter i think what we bought our colleges and universities that are devoted to free and open inquiry, that are devoted to the pursuit of truth, that are cultivating Young Americans to be good citizens, that are preparing them for fruitful careers, right . We dont want institutions that are the sort of reverse image of what the left wants them to be pure now at the same time i think we need to also recognize that the sort of institution that we want is something that needs to be accomplished through policy into a political process. If you think that even establishing a society that values and protects free speech, that itself is a political accomplishment, right . So we canceled operate in some kind of purity through what we just expect people to observe institutional neutrality and freespeech. We have to recognize that there are people who dont value those things. And there are people who are working against them, and we need to put in place policies, procedures and people who can ensure that our institutions will remain devoted to the ends that we want them to serve, even if there is room in those institution for people that dont value those things. Thank you. Thank you to the organizers for putting this together. Thank you for your attention at the really Great Questions here and join me in thanking our panelists for terrific presentation. [applause] cspan is your unfiltered view of government. We are funded by these Television Companies and more including midco. Midco support cspan as a public service, along with these other Television Providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. Cspans washington journal, a live forum, including you to discuss the latest issues in government, politics and public policy, from washington and across the country. Friday morning, we will talk about the Supreme Court reform and the state of the Legal Movement with the cofounder and outgoing executive of demand justice, and the president of the national right to work Legal Defense program on workforce issues and labor unrest. Join the conversation live at 7 00 eastern friday morning on cspan, cspan now or online at cspan. Org. Next, treasury secretary janet yellen and the commissioner of the irs talk