Transcripts For CSPAN House Agriculture Subcommitee Hearing On Wildfires 20240712

We will hear from the u. S. Forest service at this u. S. House agricultural subcommittee meeting. This hearing of the subcommittee conservation and forestry titled the 2020 while very dear response and Recovery Efforts will come to order. Welcome and thank you for joining todays hearing with mr. John phipps did deputy chief for state and private forestry. After a brief opening remarks the hearing will open to questions. Members will be recognized in order of seniority alternating between majority and minority members. When you are recognized to be asked to unmute your microphone and you will have five minutes to ask your question or make a comment. In order to get as many questions as possible the timer will stay consistently visible on your screen. Thank you for joining us here today in washington and on line for this critical hearing on the wildfires ravaging the western United States. We have all seen the footage from california oregon and washington. It is a real and it is terrifying. I want to talk today about what we can do to meet the needs and face the challenges presented by this unprecedented wildfire season out west and elsewhere. Deputy chief phipps thank you for joining us today and for this important discussion. I appreciate everything you and the Forest Service do and did to accommodate our request on such short notice and i do not want to take any more than a minute of your focus away from from the important work happening to fight wildfires in communities across our country. The Forest Service recently lost one of its own fighting a wildfire in southern california. I ask before we continue we pause for a moment of silence for him and for all those we have lost the wildfires this year. As we speak there are over 70 large fires ranging across 5 million acres in the southeast, the south, the right amounts the Pacific Northwest and california. For some perspective that is the equivalent of 5 million football fields and 1 million major league is ballfields are 2. 5 million typical city blocks that are currently running. They are more than 31,000 firefighters and support personnel on the ground waging this battle and we have to keep their safety and their needs foremost in our minds. We even have firefighting staff in canada and mexico supporting the heroic efforts of the u. S. For staff working under dangerous and trying circumstances. In addition to Public Health crisis unlike anything we have seen in 100 years. Our communities are trying to manage wildfire evacuations during covid19 and protect electric grid during extreme heat and wildfires among other challenges get as an precedented as this moment is im reminded another moment in our nations history when americans also faced great uncertainty and hardship or during the 1930s at the height of the Great Depression the dustbowl ravaged much of United States and congress did not understand the severity of the crisis. Despite demands for action by the and those impacted by dust storms congress failed to act in a conference of manner. It was not until march of 1935 when the dust from the midwest reached the capital steps and lawmakers are forced to see it and experience with their own eyes that a compromise could be reached in what became the First Federal conservation bill the Soil Conservation domestic allotment act of 1936. The three years that followed its passage soila version dropped by more than 20 but i can only imagine what hardship could have been averted averted had congress acted when they first understood that there was a Crisis Brewing for americans across the great plains. Lets be clear that all of those here listening virtual today it shouldnt take the ash of these wildfires are the debris and floodwaters of the hurricanes ravaging our coast or severe heat felt by millions across the nation across the globe on a daily basis reaching the capital steps for congress to take action on the crisis that we are currently facing. Climate change is real and it is here and the failure of this or any committee to take action will have real human cost. I do not suggest that there not other factors that have contributed to these and other recent wildfires. We know that many factors are involved in the current wildfires in their wildfire risk and that certainly includes encroachment of housing and development on wetland Forest Management decisions resources Fire Management weather events like the historic lighting storm that struck california in august the actions of people, these of pyrotechnic devices and a list unfortunately continues. And to explore how we can work with you to protect her from wildfires a season. I look forward to discussion and continue Work Together and look forward to discussions about how we can continue our important work. An annual funding cycle to ensure the health and resilience of a National Forest. Which of the economic drivers of small communities across the country. Thank you very much. In consultation with Ranking Member and first rule 80, id like to make you aware that others may join together. They may join us today. I like to now welcome Ranking Member for his opening statement. Thank you chair, i really appreciate the effort and took to have todays hearing on this very important subject as well as the dissipation of our subcommittee and resentful Committee Members who want to take part in white in in this extremely important for them. Before begin though i think it is important that we recognize the life and legacy of one of our former chairman bodman and hunt bob smith. In the back there is a candle burning for him. At a small picture as well. Hes a family man. His cattle rancher, banker and contractor in legislature from bergen. Love this institution and understood the working across the aisle is the best way to succeed. Because we also know that. Bob was a politician politician. Any though saw his counsel. He appreciated the artwork again staff in the responsibly of us office names a credit to this committee and the house of representatives. Faithfully served in oregon Second District from 1983 until 1995 and again from 9799. In between there, chairman smi smith, that was his tenure as the chairman of the house committee. Oregonians can be proud of the service in my prayers got to his family during this time. Thanks again chair. As we know, and as you mentioned, this year the western states have experienced yet another catastrophic fire season with 7 million acres burned in california. 3. 6 million acres burned so far. Im afraid future seasons will get worse mostly dramatically improve management of our national forces. The Forest Service is five euros 50 percent of 190 3m acres of National First system. And is currently at high risk of wildfire are likely to be affected by insect and disease outbreaks. The current phase, it will take the Forest Service nearly to treat these acres. Our National Forest dismissing an epidemic of declining health which is in direct correlation to the disastrous policies that have led to a dramatic decrease in management. Even in the portions of the National Forest outside of those borderless areas. In recent years, congress has addressed fire, with the funding facts and provided new authorities in an attempt to streamline Forest Management. Mothers noticing a policy solution to solving wildfires them as gardener approach is not nearly enough. Every two years ago, california experiences must deadly wildfire on record when campfire in the paradise mcgill you. Took 85 lives and destroyed the town of paradise as well as outlying areas. The time, the congress should go back to that. The house and Senate Committees were conferencing the 2018 farmville. With the opportunity to get the number of bipartisan house provisions to help prevent further loss of life and property from wildfires. These bipartisan refrain from u. S. Force services and about the obama and trump administration. However, despite his efforts by the republican farmville recently, the Senate Democrats refused to even discuss these critical reforms. They require active management in the form of mechanical bidding, prescribed tires and other activities. His religion and become overgrown boxes as we see now. In the status quo, addressing at risk acres take years and years these delays harm the very acres that we are trying to protect. For instance, 2018 reduction act project in the sierra National Forest central thousand acres to respond to pre mortality and review fuels long roots for jemima knowledge from those of the entire vacation to delay the process. An analysis took nearly today are under two years to the day to complete. Unfortunately, is easily identified fire acres were consumed in increased fire for the restoration work that even began. We can address these issues of common sense approaches the benefit both our forest and our rural communities. Any ideas that we could bring to the table and act on immediately. One example hr 7978 of emergency wildfire and Public Safety. Proud with her to my colleagues to introduce this bill to help protect from catastrophic wildfires. Intimate common sense Forest Management forms will help prevent these fires in the future. While this is a good start, or work will be needed. Congress can consider any number of a net number of authorities for bipartisan legislations. Salvage to address landscape scale mortality events caused by wildfire. And infestations and disease. And droughts. In the collings i encouraged him to take action on the ideas and others without to delay. We are indeed fortunate to have the Forest Service here, deputies chief of staff and private forestry just fine for us today. We appreciate that. We hope to hear about the experience. And what tools your Forest Service has at your disposal. What tools are needed further to prevent and suppress wildfires. Like to take a moment again to thank the Forest Service and firefighters and other First Responders that are currently at risk and those who are already as mentioned, have given their lives to protect the forest and from the communities. We are deep forever grateful to their service in the hope todays hearing latest comprehensive solution to make their jobs easier in the future. Thank you madam chair. The chair would request another members some of their Opening Statements for the record. So in essence may begin the test monies and to ensure there is ample time for questions. I would like to a witness. Thank you for being here today. He began his role as deputy chief of state and private forestry idiocies Forest Service in 2019. He started his career with Forest Service and cutting 76 and has since held a variety rules within the agency. Prior to his current position, he served as the station director for the Rocky Mountain research station from 2015 to 2019. We will now proceed to hearing in your testimony in about five minutes. When one minute is off of the light will turn yellow. Signaling the time is close to expiring and should be able to see a clock ticking down on one of these boxes on the screen for you. Please begin whenever you are ready. Good afternoon everyone. Chair, Ranking Members, and members of the committee. I am proud to be representing the Forest Service today as a career professional forester with decades of experience dedicated to our mission of stewarding americas wars and grasslands for client and future generations. Ive experienced as a firefighter, land manager, research leader, and Senior Executive currently leading the agencys state and private forest programs. Including fire and aviation management. My testimony will outline the current status Forest Service response to wildfires burning neighbors that we have fun going to take care of our employees and communities before during and after fires occur. Our nation is enduring and devastating wildfire year. One that is cut destructive through states like california, oregon, washington, colorado and arizona and made more difficult by the undoing covid19 pandemic. As of september 19, there have been almost 3000 of fires that were more than 7. 2 million acres across all jurisdictions. In addition to homes and property damage, these fires have taken lives throughout the country. We are mourning the tragic loss of charlie morton, big bear potshot squad boston died last thursday in california while fighting the el dorado fire. That was on the San Bernardino National Forest. Charlies Memorial Services tomorrow in San Bernardino. Its an understatement to say this is an unprecedented year. Numerous large fires since mid august have been in and around very large communities in developed areas across california and the Pacific Northwest. Smoke impacts have been horrendous. And widespread across western United States. One of the most notable challenges this year is the number of fires taking place at the same time. We just stretch just then. And since august 18th, through today, the demand for fire resources has exceeded supply across the system. As with any fire year, it takes all partners, federal state and local government, tribal, contractors and volunteers to respond. Well Work Together. To ensure that we are making this use of our resources and to protect the public and our firefighters. As of september 19th of over 32700 interagency firefighters was 40 wildfire operations across the country. Primarily in california oregon and washington. This is a record for most firefighters ever deployed. To bolster our capabilities, we requested a system or assistance from active military as well as our International Partners and additionally states have requested assistance from the national guards. Preventing the spread of covid19 among our First Responders and communities is an important addition to our focus on safety this year. The Forest Service has been successful without limiting our covid19 prevention and mitigation measures by spreadout fire camps and social distancing and mask wearing. I like to conclude by recognizing efforts of this committee that took to establish the congressional fire funding as a result of the car service no longer delays priority work that results from transfers offending from other Forest Service programs to pay for ongoing fire operations. I welcome any questions you may have. Thank you so much. Thank you again chief for being here and be patient with us working around the putting scheduled work different thank you for your report did this money. Members will be recognized questions in order of seniority alternating between majority minority members will be recognized by men in order to allow us to get as any questions as possible and please keep your microphones muted until you are recognized. In order to mice background noise. Little one minute is left, i will turn yellow signaling time that is close to expiring and i will begin by recognizing myself for five minutes. And want to follow up, he said a couple of noteworthy things. Twelve any of them but specific to what they wanted to follow up on. You talked about the Record Number of firefighters are currently deployed fighting fires throughout the list. You talked about the social distancing and the impacts that covid19 is having on the work that you all are doing. You talked about the funding needs. So i would like to follow up in the question of resources. Congress a prorated 1 million to suppression is your brain ended entered in addition to this as you mentioned, another 1. 9 million is available through the wildfire planning. In the current conditions. Do you anticipate the need to utilize this new Budget Authority to file full extent. And can you provide subcommittee with an update has to any transfers the department of interior has made for wildFire Suppression this year. Thank you for the question. I will start with the easiest one first. The department of interior requested 47 milliondollar transfer which we made. An earlier we had transferred to them 2 million as normal posture between the departments. Relative to where we are in our Fire Suppression funding. We are still within our appropriated amount for that. We dont anticipate going over it. The reason for that is this particular fire year, all of the fires seem to have at once. Later in the summer. In the agency the Interagency Community didnt even have the capability to spend at the rate they wouldve had to of taken. Normally fires are spread out across the whole year. Those types of years when we are more likely to go over the budget and have to defend to the reserve account. You mentioned interagency. I am curious. I have concerns i would love your opinions about what the United States has does not have currently in terms of the federal strategy to reduce the risk of destructive wildfires overall. And specifically in your opinion, and federal planning coordination and development of strategies for Community Resilience land you planning a specifically for development along the wildlands. For interface help reduce the risk posed by the destructive wildfires. And what are some of the major risks posed by development along and are there precautions that could be taken to mitigate these risks when building. The wildland fire system or problem is complex. You mentioned that several of the factors. His development in the wild areas. It is climate factors, Forest Management factors for sure. And what we are seeing on the landscape now, we used to call them mega fires. With the even larger than that. There landscape scale fires i can go 250,000 plus. We have one in california that is 800,000 acres. We currently operate at a lesser scale for that. The agency does not have a capacity correctly but we could. We probably need to be scaling up two three times more at least the other problem we have is we tend to think about these fires as they are all occurring and as a result of how we managed federal forests. That is true in part. But its really in all lands problem. Particularly in california. We see fires originating on private land. Merging up into the forest and vice a versa. And so we would have to start thinking more comprehensively at the across ownerships if we want to see a different picture. I would assure you and the scientists just these western landscapes but will capability to fire capability. We would see much more to that of the debt as a desirable future. Its. Alarming. The Ranking Members suggested, we need to come together this different. A skill that is hard for people to limited of one additional fact begin help. Pre settlement. On average, average for set 64 countries. Cordially the average force in california has 3120. That is 80 percent more density. Other than of it because we have the joy for over hundred and ten yourself without every fire weekend. And even successful at that. This creating a situation where almost all jurisdictions heavily attempt without all those fires. As a result, we are selecting way within 52 percent the normal gets the way the catastrophic firebreathing than happens to the right conditions, theres no stopping its basically. Were there to help people get out of the way. But there is just tragic loss of life in these fires burn a high severity. It is really a bad trajectory that we are on. Its going to take really a paradigm shift in thinking. Thank you. Thank you for testimony. We have done a little bit over with my questions but i want to confirm. He gave the number 64 trees per acre. Before seven announced up to 3120. Just to ensure that is understood in the rest of the committee is following along. This because natural fires that were coming through without processed wouldve taken entries over time so that we were at the National Rate of 64 is upright. Yes. Sue. That is exactly right chair. The way these forests evolve with the fire and fire did the work. Interesting. Those numbers are really interesting to think about and thats way. I will continue on. I would now recognize Ranking Member for five minutes. Thank you again. Thank you both. I just want to touch on the statement you made their. I agreed on the idea that the density of population of our forest is much more of sustainable especially if youre talking about drought periods as we go in and out of the west. You mentioned that private lands that are adjacent. I dont see them as being the initial cause a very merry fires there happened to be some kind of an accident. Private land us are either managed. The dog in forested and all of this kind of majors. Less theyre unable to get the permits to do they would like to do. Which sometimes, regulatory challenge of private land would have. So i would be hesitant to sing the private land is her igniting and federal plans are very often indeed. As the federal lands that have the scary neighbor to private lands over the western counties. In my family has nothing to possibly 70000 acres. It has lost about 50000 of their timberland. Into fires occurring on a nearby Forest Service property. The gate hundred thousand acres is the one youre speaking out. So lets talk a little bit about one of the issues with prevention. You can see from space. From satellite, the amount of smoke plumes coming from the western states. We see that plume crosscountry. And even seven here in washington dc june effect on the skies here as well as massive levels of air quality. His wave more than the unhealthy mark. More locally there. I understand its even heading and europe in the jet stream. What is not happen is prevented measures including prescribed fire. The meaning fires that we intentionally set in a time of year when you can control them. We must at this year on the chance. In other years and more prescribed fire. To burn we dictate head level we dictate parking and instead, that was shut down. And some of it was because in pointing to air quality issues so it is by contrast that it would be, kind of air quality issues are we having perverse the prescribed fire to given amount of acres and gives a buffer zone or a fire break. What is we need to do more of his prescribed fire. Or to allow them to burn the way we are running now. I think it depends on what we want. We want to maintain the forest. We need to start prescribed, return safely return the fire to the landscape. The way were doing it now. Its all well intended. Its just not rapid enough pace for it to raise scale. Theres a number of papers in the Science Literature that would indicate prescribed fires, smoke, particularly given more on our terms. As much more benign than fire at the time of the year, in the summer heat and the amount of the total consumption of forest. This event this year was just horrendous. Particularly,. 25 premium this too technical but it was record with levels. The worst air quality in the world and the west coast. Horrific yes. The meat touch on another point here. Talking about the loss of life. The loss of land the spring life in front of land stock. One tragic story on the livestock. Right near my home. It would also like with permission to submit this for the record for mr. Dave daly. Internal sing, cry for the mountains and the legacies lost on what is known as the bear fire. It breaks your heart to read this. What i would like to ask upon the heels of this. Theyre still out trying to recover cattle from their area. Any generations of family legacies that have gone there. Must read that. The Forest Service make an accommodation the ranchers still have capital. Then looking for them by extending the grazing permit for raising if necessary. I will work with the ranchers on replacement grazing for those who have lost their allotments due to the wildfire. It these are a couple of small things we can do for these folks with the horrendous. In the accommodate those. I believe we can. Theres allotment plans. It is complicated. And a grazing process may be little bit constraining but we would certainly have an interest to try to mitigate the loss. Okay, we would try. Did you think this is an effort we can really push hard for. Because these losses are very real. When they have lost in a given for us, tens of thousands of acres as well as millions across the west. They needed replacement for this. Losses are ready devastating. We need a concerted effort to do that. He pled you will push for that in the coming weeks. Yes sir. Okay and thank you. I am over my time. Communication sometimes is a little slow. When you might be a fire and pending. With these folks need to know about your about when they should be clearing their cattle out of the given area. Solicit we can improve upon that as well. Thank you. The chair now recognizes congressman for five minutes. Thank you manager prayed for this meeting and for the Ranking Members party i would like to thank. I already did that. Fire plays an Important Role in our environment. My district has parts of six National Forests and the grand canyon. But if not properly managed and planned for, causes massive devastation. As we have seen in recent weeks. And in addition to that, the loss of life feels increasing time and time again. I know thats not just the Forest Service. So we put up communities together and everything else. That urban space area is critically important when you see whole communities be devastated like they have. In effect has on human life and families. And the impact of the natural resources. In arizona, a lot of our water. At this fire year, arizona seen over 700,000 acres burned. That is more than the past two years combined. Rookie my time here, is in congress. We have had expanded Forest Service authorizations to better manage the fires. A few questions about those authorizations. I look forward to your response today. Or at a later date if you cannot answer today. The first question is congress, implemented the firefighting fixed during the 115th congress. To move rapidly from the suppression efforts without the need to use non fire funding. I would like to know how will this is worked and has the ensuing budgetary stability resulted in increased efforts related to fire prevention. And particularly, has there been additional work done by the department in the form of treatment and control burdens. Which you mentioned a little bit ago. On the urban interfaces being prioritized. Thank you for the question. The firefighting fixed is an understatement to say its one of the best things that we received. It really helps stabilize the Forest Service. A lot of chaos every year we had to transfer. So thank you so much for that. That is allowing us to better plan for a lot of things including giving and focusing our treatments and implementing them. I think in large part because of the prior funding fix. One of the things that happened prior to the fix being put in place was that. Much systematically over quite some time, say 15 years, the capacity to do that kind of work was reduced. Because all the money was also in the budget going towards either suppression. We were at one time 15 percent of the agency was fire funding related to. Counties around 55 percent. And now just at the right time, we need to ramp up and scale up to these large landscape scale center planning, we are lacking the capacity. So i think that can be remedied. But it is a definite think that we are looking forward to prayed as now we are trying to get the now that we have a fire funding fix, we need to wrap up capacity to do the work. Out have the project such as in my district improved forest resiliency. And how is the usda supporting these largescale projects. And we have been trying for any number of years to get it up and working at a larger scale. So i would like to hear your thoughts. This contract projects is a wonderful gift for us because like i mentioned earlier, a lot of these treatments on the land scape have to be a land us. Allows us to pursue that. Summa lm couple of seconds. I guess the core of my question is, why is it taking so long to get these projects up and going and sustained. Sooner is complex for us. A lot of the environmental work that weve been trying to streamline, we are trying to do things to make life easier for the fighters. Because of Environmental Review problems, we have not implemented as fast as we would like. We look forward to continuing to work with the committee to help streamline those. Thank you. I just want to say, the district has almost 700,000 acres already approved. Theyre all within a stewardship area. And i just can understand what we have to them. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the congressman from maine. Saying no minority members are actually present. We cannot hear you. [silence]. Congressman, we can not hear you. [silence]. [silence]. As we continue to work out the technical issues for the congressman, the chair now recognizes congressman from california for five minutes. Thank you so much. Before i asked my question. As you are saying earlier, the recommended seated is 64 trees and 320 or Something Like that. Breaker. Yes that is correct. You are saying that was 80 percent of her capacity. But its really hundred percent. Is that right. Yes. So its more. Its all right great. A bit of a difference there. But certainly, we seen record heat waves. The presenting the latest dangerous. The essential men and women who have picked the americas fruits and vegetables proper and Health Advisories are recommending individuals remain indoors a health impact. The farmer aggressively dont have an option. While working in the poor air quality conditions academics amongst parties certainly cannot take her pick a peach pies imparted and to distribute the mass, to the farmworkers, the unfortunate reality is any do not have accesses to these masks. And we must remain vigilant and have all the lead workers especially those americas tables are protected. So i certainly support the Forest Services decision and to protect the Public Health rated the temporary ones in california and also glad that this is not just a National Decision but one that was made with this supervisors within the region. And wildfire path as you know, is not limited to structures or trees and burning. And even what is been contained, they remain at risk. Such as for air quality, mudslides, soil erosion. Water quality in all of these will after the planes were put out. And destructive wildfires to raise can enter our watersheds and have negative water impacts. Subsequent trains, and heavy debris in our watersheds. Streams and rivers and municipal water systems. I know that the agent including programs for the 2018 fire bill. At the department itself is even more beyond this one agency. The agency has not has funding increase for the water source protections program. Authorized by the 2018 farmville. My worry is that the agency will already have to stretch the budget in order to maintain these vital programs. As of the is why has not agency asked for funding for these programs and what can be done to mitigate his negative Water Quality impacts on the wildfires. What steps the foresters taken to address the response and recovery phases. Summa thank you for the question. Youre correct in that the air process, we have been doing that for 15 years at least. Maybe two decades. And we have our hydrologist, mission scientists, you name it, the u. S. Annuitant assessment. And then plan for emergency application of seed and maybe creating dikes and removing would. We currently, across the country there 7 million acres that have earned. We have teams doing the assessment. Not completed yet. We think we have enough funding because it is paid out of suppression. To take care of it. It is going to be, theres probably going to be a capacity problem we are going to have to prioritize and make sure that we implement the projects that are the most meaningful effect. This probably going to and the effort is aimed at making sure we said that before winter rains come. In the maybe some need to go on into the fall. Thank you. Funding increases for these programs, they parted. And something the agency needs. Could you repeat that. The funding, the increases. When i am asking is the department, have they not yet requested funding increase for the water source protection programs. Is that something the budget is okay with. Do need additional capital. Or what. We have the Adequate Funding but im not familiar with that program that youve just mentioned. I would be happy to get back with you. Great. Think is much. This year understanding the minority members are underway. But in the current absence i will continue recognizing congresswoman from maine. If we can connect this time. It appears our Ongoing Technical issues here. So we will come back to you. The chair now recognizes congresswoman. [silence]. With a continued technical difficulties, the next person for five minutes. I think the chair person if you give me a moment second pull up my memo. The may start on a question is based upon a congressional briefing the bipartisan california congressional briefing that the congressman and i participated in. This was last week. The head of hellfire. And that the oes from california. He cited that based upon an incredible amount of that we have been in california as well as in oregon and washington and other western states. They thought it was necessary that we revisit the National Forest plan in terms of resources and in terms of enforcement vigilant. We have try to work on that of the last 18 months with some changes that have been made. Barely given the fact that the intensity in the impacts it seems to me, in california. Its been over 60 percent of the fires have been on Forest Service land. Less than 10 percent on state forest land. Theres been a lot of private land of course. Could you care to comment. Yes the Interagency Committee has something of the wild land fire strategy that was done maybe seven or eight years ago. Has some good intentions. The federal agency is that something called the fire plan. We call it fire plan one. Oh. Currently we are working on fire plan twopoint oh. For a lot of folks those are just numbers. What is that mean. To influence an update to the nations enter agency fire plan. Specifying how much we should be putting into hazardous fuels treatment and what kind resources to be need. When we needed communities and that kind of thing. What you think under lessons that have been warned the last six months right one of the changes you are looking at. Why think the lesson is we need to think big. We have to have if we are going to try to get a managed landscape that is resilient to fire. We do much more than we are doing now. And that has to be with participation of communities. State lands. Federal lands. And private plan. In this efforts, the resources, for the last couple of years, a lot of the money that weve had for Forest Management has been referred over to fires out. Do you have of how much appropriations released to be set aside to banish your Forest Service land. You made that assessment. We think three times in land management. How much of the last year. And probably about a billion. That was totaled. Piercing be somewhere between two and three. It. Yes. Over what period of time. Thats annually. It took us 110 years to get here. Its going to take at least 1tenyears into a more desirable future. The extent of the landscape feels that its everywhere you look. On the creek fire that have been exposed to, the week ago. Were going to go back on saturday to survey the update on that print but one of the devastating fires, the chief 30 year veteran from san diego. , is trying to deal with the sprint indicated to me that frankly, were stretched too thin. This is an area that is predominantly porcelain that you have given jurisdiction to campfire to manage his particular fire here. Seems unusual but we have 14000 firefighters out there. Weve got the national guard. It just got me alone. And were short. This year was an extraordinary year. The system was not designed. Broke the system to try to respond to all of that amount of fire. All at the same time. And it is likely the case we need to maintain the Fire Suppression capability while we are working to manage the landscape better, released a ten year. When time is expired i found my memo. In terms of the questions that i wanted to direct. So i can either do that afterwards. Or a lot of allow second round of questioning i would be happy to stay here and take that opportunity. Thank you for being so responsive right will be happy to put you back on. The turnout recognized another for five minutes. Thank you. Its unfortunate that we have currently votes on the floor and on the whole list of amendments made in as well as other concurring committees and a lot more of our membership argument that said, i think backup on were talking about grazing but i left off. In talk to any renter. Anybody who works the land an area that has valley enforced in phase three much more for us to forested areas. Thats a braising is a very important tool. Not only for the livestock to go with also helps with the fire. Help suppress the fire. We talked about this. Eating have photographic evidence where you have a fire burns right up to the fence late of a crazed field. It stops. Is been reluctant to have it widespread is. They act like its new. They call the Pilot Program fundraising. What is there to prove. No work sprint reduces the fine fuels down there. And again, dont talk about grazing. There certainly strategic zones where it is useful for keeping loads down. If you loads in this well as the fire it would be helpful for firefighters. When a fire despair, they can manage it. Its really ready because we seem animal unit, that cattle can use during a given time. Those numbers are decreasing. Grazing purposes for cattle and sheep. Even goat herders going out and helping in small zones. Finally sing a downward trend. So very effective tool. We talked of humans go about fire, prescribed fire. In the unpopular component of smoke coming from that are in air quality issues pride which is going to be a lot different under control fire then the message we have here. Why is it grazing use them as much broader tool the benefits several win win categories here. Thank you that question. I think yes. It is areas with a can be helpful. As i mentioned earlier in the nations western forest has an incredible density. If you really would lend itself to grazing. In the aftermath of fires of course, the changes in salvage. I think that range managers are always looking for opportunities to increase animal. Do they consult with the livestock owners with a tank that density this. This is a dense stuff. He might not have everything they can be graceful but there are areas in between. The strong consult with those who on the livestock. Guest. Routinely, i was in my experience, actually have grazing permits worried about leaving her up always attending to relationships with ranchers and asking them what they think about things and how can we better manage the grazing resources together. Can we get a greater commitment to this. Is this an effective tool. There are those who do want him prescribed burns. This seems like a winwin to be. Can we get a bigger push for this. Yes. The Forest Service look into this and get back to you. Okay thank you. And also, will talk about readiness. It is an unprecedented amount of Lightning Strikes happening in california. Internet a lot of fires from that. We run into the problems with contrast. People ahead of time the contract with them. And seems like the system is broken in such a fee dont do it exactly the perfect weight on timing come they kick you out and you cant talk to them for three years. Mr. Mcneil in my district is talk about working with one person one office in sacramento. Is he been for any years. The contractor that help Service Heavy Equipment that would be out of the lines in the eidetic is rejected. I told after the fact that you have to talk to this other office to get your contract going. Well how is he supposed to know that especially since he has a track record of working with the one. So then they work with the other office and some of the thing with fedex and then they get rejected for that. Now somebody based mechanic for any years helping with these contracted pieces of equipment after helping in the fire lines being kicked out. So they decide later, we better reinstate him. So that as well as any of the stories you talk about with the system. Emails. Rubbing return in the website not timely. Folks not processing these great if you want a state of readiness. I drove past county, there still about 20 water tender truck sitting on the freeway there plaintiff and not been contacted because of a breakdown in the ability to process them. So what can we see an improvement in that area. In this case, this mechanic. Mr. Mcneil. And others, just trying to be part of a solution. Where as we are overwhelmed with the Forest Service is another agencies. Thank you for that we acknowledge we have problems in california. Over the vipers system per se but how it was staffed. Technical and administrative issues were brought in more people. I understand the contracting issues that. Much subsided. The need to be in makeup of an opportunity for that. It is a threeyear term, then that needs to be waived other people can get signed up and back into the system. Were still by no means out of the fire so to speak in the north and probably the south year round. I would like to welcome a new member of the committee and member of subcommittee as well. It is you here thank you and i yelled back. The chair now recognizes congresswoman. For five minut minutes. [silence]. Thank you for bearing with us through these technical challenges. We appreciate it. While we are working on the technical challenges and continuing to do so. The chair now recognizes congressman for five minutes. I think the chairperson again for allowing me the second round of the questioning. I wanted to followup on some of the comments were made by my calling from california. As it relates to some of the Health Issues. As you know deputy chief, these fires are not only major issues for western states but for our constituents. Even if you are not any fire. The sno smoke is been like it l. Will you when you have been able to see the sun, it has been orange. And coming from 30 or 40 miles away. They obviously impact the air quality as well as Water Quality. In an area that is in the valley thats already containment area. Another Forest Services meteorologist are working to improve the satellite modeling to. Things like smoke moment. These smoke impacts in terms of smoke maps are critical for Public Health efforts. Folks looked at doing more in that area of research so that you can provide a first rate we have a lot of people are asthmatic. A lot of people, Health Issues preexisting conditions. That would be enforced week of the pandemic, the covid19. Thank you for that question. Were very we know a Small Business in an impact on american public. This last event, friends on the west coast, even quite some distance from the fire. Like you said had less than one quarter mile of disability pension visibility. Three category one fires per unit. [inaudible]. People had to stay inside. I heard the people that stated site, were coughing. And is quite an impact. The best option for us i believe is to manage the landscapes to prevent that. But until we do, the best thing that we can do is get notification in advance. We have a lot of modeling and efforts that we have been working with. Knowing others. On these different models to try and give as much notice as we can so people that are particularly sensitive to smoke and get out of harms way. And i want to make a suggestion to the chairperson in the subcommittee and working with the full committee. They impact of this throughout the company is certainly in the west, are such that i would help the subcommittee and congress with his own fire and his constituency. So it is important that we try to think focus on not only at the end of this year but next year. In terms of providing support necessary u. S. Forest service. And i know both the Congress Woman and members are concerned as well as other congressmen. I think deputy chief, go to come back with recommendations to us as we look at the two wouldnt call them. Plan one and plan to print updated heartland the technical term. The decide to be the subject because i know if your concern is that we try to reassess next year with the budget and with the appropriations process producing while you were gone, the estimated and try to manage this, somewhere between two to 3 billion to do the course management service. That is nowhere near what we provided budget management right that is correct reduce the maximum because of this note. In different regions of california. Number two we have got to reexamine land use policy. We got hundreds of thousands of People Living where they did not live before 30 years ago. And three Climate Change is a part of this. Were going to have to focus on all the above. The other issues are more immediate. I think we have to have a strategy that comes from an employees all the above. Both with longterm efforts as all the shortterm efforts so we can apply to the next congress. There also some points and questions and want to raise and i will submit them to the subcommittee after words. And i thank you for giving me the second round. Chimac thank you, jim, i appreciate that. The gentlemans time has expired. In that yield five minutes to the gentleman from ohio. Thank you chairman. You changed on me. Thank you, thank you for being here today, and your role as a deputy chief for private force truth in the u. S. Yet i look forward to your comments. Thank you. And your testimony you describe the unprecedented challenge milam and jim millions of americans face this year. You say that as of last week over 7 million acres of land have burned. This has devastating impact to those who have lost their loved ones, their homes, and their livelihood. These fire set even impacted the air quality and stretch federal resources the middle of a pandemic. Of the land that has burned this year, what is the breakdown of federal versus nonfederal land . I dont have the exact figures. But roughly half of it, maybe a little bit more maybe a little more was on federal lands. Civic talk of the steps being taken to reduce the risk of wildfire. That president executive order 13855. I support these types of amp and joint actions but i also congress should be more active. That would enable us to better prevent these fires. Civic i think it is not only the authorities, i think we have a lot of them. I think right now it is an Organization Capacity and funding problem to ramp up to the scale of the problem. That is probably the biggest one. I think we need incentives for private lands, owners to contribute to be part of the solution. Because it does not do any good to manage forest on one side of the line when you have non fire resilient private lands on the other. Right thank you very much. Mr. Chairman i yield back my remaining time. Thank you. We appreciate that. At this point, i yield myself five minutes. Not just because its my prerogative as chair but i am in order so i will do that. Chief, good afternoon and thank you for being here. I appreciate you, not only your expertise but you being able to talk about such a relevant and topical topic. Especially concerning this type of issue with the 2020 wildfire Response Recovery efforts. Especially someone like me who caused the Central Coast of california and actually had to evacuate. Had to be evacuated in the last couple of months because the carmel fire that was coming up over the hill about a halfmile from my hill and i saw the flames. That being said i was one the fortunate of many thanks to cal fire and the First Responder city good job battling that blaze we were able to return to our home. Obviously this is something that is literally not just relative, something that is important to all of us. Obviously in california and i echo it congressman costa was saying in how we have to address this. With this i went ahead on four areas in my questioning by just to let you know coming up late out for you, for station, Forest Service staffing is prescribed burns. First i want to talk about Forest Management projects and wildfire risk reduction. In your testimony you highlighted the importance of proactively conducting projects to create healthy fire resilient conditions on our lands. Can you provide your vision of what i said, proactive Forest Management and doesnt include wildfire reduction risk projects . And if so how do we best implement those types of projects . Thank you great question. My vision of this is we have these large landscapes that we have to plan across the entire landscape. All lands. And yes, a lot of the work has to be done on National Forests. And we have to strategically treat these landscapes if they are too dense, we will have to thin them out. We have to do prescribed fire. That is the only thing thats going to get a large landscape particularly in california back into a fire resilient condition. It takes a lot of cooperation and imagination to make that happen. Particularly with california and so much population. Understood and i appreciate that. I believe you heard congressman talk about what his first steps lease how we can help out with the wildfire Public Safety act. And obviously, i know we are running short on time but we have to remind you about the replant act when it comes to forest restoration. But that i also want to hit on another topic that is important, near and dear to my district. Force service staffing. I spoke with chief christiansen, undersecretary hubbard about the shortages that are, not just affecting but really plaguing our National Forest. And so i want to basically talk to you, let you know the 2020 fire funding fix will kick in soon. Ive also gotten mixed reviews on whether the funding fix will help address the shortages of staffing. In your opinion, chief, what will it do in terms of filling those vacancies of not fire positions . What can we do in congress to help you . It does provide the opportunity, we think because its putting some the Fire Suppression off the books if you will. There is an amount of money if it were to be reinvested in the staffing that could make an incredible difference. Because on average everything, other than fires about 60 less than what used to be. Understood, understood. Unjust going back actually to forest restoration, when it comes to reforestation with lifting the spending cap on the Reforestation Trust Fund help address the issue of reforestation post disaster . And there are number of other constraints. But they could use that im sure. Okay great. Interested grabbed burns he had a pretty good discussion on this during the time youve been her here, can you talk to me about Forest Service plans to better utilize prescribed burns in the state moving forward as compared to the past 50 years . And would a prescribed fire center that trains individuals and prescribed fire methods, without help as well . I believe it would. They say in the southeast that is quite a fire culture there both on private and federal lands. They are burning through their acreages at quite a frequent basis. We need to develop that outlets as well. Understood, my time is up and i appreciate your answers. Thank you very much chief. Now yield five minutes of the gentleman from south carolina, mr. Johnson. Thank you, mr. Chairman i appreciate it. Of course is been a lot of attention and rightfully so given all of the wired joe wildfires for the numbers are tragic the numbers the data is tragic. Dont see as much News Coverage it seems to me is how proactive fuels management can really reduce that risk. There are not near as many in for Service Lands that i would like to see all the with you to implementation. Sometimes as mitigation stories are fewer and further between that we would like. At that end, i would like to highlight for my colleagues some of the examples from south dakota for this proactive Forest Management really worked. We really been break the fire triangle by managing fuel loads, we can protect lives, property and critical habitat. Not for critic record creatures but humans use that area for all manner of recreation. So one example is just three weeks ago. As a hot, dry, when the day. In the bear fire start of the black hills National Forest. This is southwest of deerfield wake. Its a fairly highly popular recreational area. The fire was started by Lightning Strike which is not that uncommon. And even though the weather conditions were critical, this fire only burn for 5 acres. It couldve been so much worse. So why was it only 5 acres . In a large part of that is because the fire burned in an area that had recently been sinned because of timber sales. And frankly, another timber sale was active nearby. And that harvest, it reduce the fuels and improve the roads, the access crisscrossing the area. And that made for a quick response. Obviously for our firefighters. Having the fuel out of their met what did bird did not burn near as hot but chief about telling you anything you dont know. That is certainly not the only thing, the most example in recent part i wouldve brought the pictures in 2015 marie had a very similar situation happen. The north pole fire started. And so here we can see, this has been actively managed. There is just been a timber sale here. Theres a thinning of the trees, the burned area was far more modest than you would expect. I had been improved for the timber sales. The men and women who went out to fight these fires were able to get there so much more quickly and were able to put this out so much more effectively than the ever wise would have. So that framework, that preface really creates the jumping off point for my questions. And i would comment mr. Chairman i like to enter in or madam chairman enter into the record these photos, smaller versions as well as an article from 2015 and the Rapid City Journal that lays out the story well. If there is no objection i would like to have it entered into the record, adam chair. Without objection. To act thank you. Deputy chief the 2014 farmville, in response from individual states, the force as an 6. 7 million acres as eligible to use expedited me for authorities. And in the 2018 farmville we made some tweaks to that. What is the status of this 46. 7 million acres . This was all about treatment for infection for bugs. To what extent did that treatment worker is it ongoing . Thank you for your question. I think your model that you laid out, your works doing thinning and prescribed fire makes a difference particularly if it is an adequate scale. Thank you for those authorities to increase the pace and scale. I dont have the exact figures for that but i know we have been actively treating fuels and harvesting timbers and density so we can do prescribed fire. I understand you dont have the exact number. If you could follow up with my office i would be interested in knowing the staff of jim if theres a reason for services not been able to attack that full flexibility granted by the 14 and 18 farmvilles, we would like to know theres something more we can do to help you all do your job better. Will be happy to do that. Given my short time i would not ask another question but ill just note that i have an interest that we have a vibrant Forest Product industry a managed forest is a healthy forest. That is aptly been the case in south dakota. Although we are falling short with our targets for the number of 100 cubic feet that have been harvested. So ill be following up with your office or your agency so we can talk about the size of that gap and the most appropriate way to deal with it. Thank you very much. Thank you for your indulgence madame chair. The chair now recognizes congressman for five minutes. Cnet thank you. I forgot how to do that, thank you madame chairwoman for allowing me to it participate in this subcommittee hearing today. And thank you deputy chief for being here and taking our questions. Right at the beginning when the charwoman spoke she said this was terrifying. And i would wholeheartedly agree. Coming from washing student state many parts of my district were on fire in my own home. We were essentially locked in the house for a week with hazardous air quality with a qi over 300 for over a week. I think what was the most terrifying part is this may be our new normal. Think it should lend real urgency and seriousness to how we address Climate Change. How we manage our forests enforce resiliency. But being thoughtful about where we build. I wanted to bring up one issue before bring up the question, one of the and on fire was evans canyon fire pit is big enough that expand to big counties. Most of it was in the county. What i believe on the semi district a full force of firefighters contributed to the effort to put it out. But because of some rules about asthmatic grants, only one of the counties got assistance. The one in my district didnt. So we are working with fema to get other assistance. But at some point i may need to call on you so you could lend your weight to that discussion. My question, with spoken before about covid ill get to that and it moment moment if i have time. But i wanted to talk about what happened after the fire. The landslides, the erosion, the lack of habitats. And i know theres something called a burned area Emergency Response team, and i wanted to talk about the fact that just like the evans creek fire, cano canyon fire was not just confined to National Forest. The same thing happens really everywhere in the state of washington. National forest, state forest, Community Forest, they all essentially feed to the safe place. How those teams coordinates the national or the federal and more local efforts . Because when there is a landslide of brushes through all of it and it affects all of the surrounding areas. Can you help the understand that . Their teams are quite resourceful. A lot of them are out there, even sometimes before the fire is totally out, working to do assessments. They do coordinate with local interest the nrcs to bring to bear everything thats needed to chide you, scarification, reestablishing drainage, they are quite effective at it. We do have funding to do that. Going to be a challenge because doing that over 7 million acres this year will require prioritization to make sure we go after the most potentially impactful areas first. Do you do that also in Community Forest and state lands . Or just confined those efforts to federal lands . The bear team would coordinate this probably not any large all of these large fires include they have be state lands they would coordinate with them as well to make sure they collectively get the best outcome very rate will more question, we spoke back in july about covid plans, you had phenomenal plans keeping fire small, keeping firefighters and cohorts enjoying what ever you could to prevent the spread within the cohort but also to prevent mingling and all this best laid plans, i dont know went up in smoke. It became very challenging when all we have these forest fires raging. Theyre all too big, mingling of groups. Even people coming in from out of state or out of country. How are you doing with testing . People converting to coronavirus positive. How are you handling the pandemic . Weve actually had a lot for that question. For that fire season really got going, we did an assessment on a statebystate basis about testing. We had a number of teams developing protocols. We decided that if someone tested positive, we would pay for the test. If it was not free who pay for lodging, for quarantine, trying to manage the incentive system to that. The social distance income of fire camps spread out. You know, i was quite concerned particularly after this big fire siege that we have had. But we are not seeing the rate of infections. In fact, we are not yet with them and modulating trying to stay away. It has been quite remarkable. The Fire Community did a really nice job this year. Sue met great thank you. And congratulations. Thank you. Again deputy chief thank you for being here today, thank you for your testimony. How we come together to help or western states can be a defining act in these times but in addition to important conversation today theres so much more work to be done beyond the jurisdiction of the subcommittee. Including support for community and home or building, for Rural Development for Healthcare Services for Emergency Management and response needs an area devastated by wildfires. In taking meaningful actions to further reduce our Carbon Footprint across sectors of the economy work to build a more sustainable economy. Theres so much more work that needs to be done by this subcommittee and this committee on both questions. What are the solutions we can look for in the agriculture enforce three sectors. I stand ready to begin you to continue this work which dont have to wait for the ash of the wildfires to reach action. Ugg ford truck Work Together as a subcommittee, as a nation to support these efforts. Thank you for being with our technological challenge and thank you for being patient during our vote timeframe. The chair now recognizes the Ranking Member of the closing statement i think weve covered a lot of ground in our time her here. I like to submit another letter as well from the federal resource, that is speaking about a lot of the issues with critical habitat designations, and the handsoff approach to management that is its fail this for song. I will submit that. Thank you mr. Phipps for your attention to these important issues. Because the fires are still burning. It is going to take an incredible amount of effort, as you mentioned we have 100 tenure problem that we hoping catch up in only ten or less. It will require going at what is a pace and scale, much higher than what we have seen in the past. We need to be able to work through because bite me for it is well intended. A lot of times we are plowing the same old ground on that. We dont need a document for doing the types of practices we arty know are good practices. We can do this on a one pager instead of 18 months or more of a study and lawsuits and all of that. I talk about the ranch fire from a couple years ago over on the west side of the northern part of california. 4000 acres. After two years of wrangling they want to put in a process accelerated work long roadways and other key areas. 7000 out of 40000 that had been burned long roadways to recover and make more fireproof make hardin from fire. So what happens on that lawsuits the court throws out all of that work with yet more delay help us help you with u. S. Forest service. To help the roadblocks that you faced for so many in the service for projects that a pace and scale is going to be realistically helpful my constituents are very, very tired of it. Their tart of the roadblocks to the work, they are tired of hurdles to getting contracts to be part of the solution for equipment. They are tired of causally being in danger the air quality is right there in their backyard ten times is unhealthy in some cases. We are all feeling it, it will bc urban friends even feeling i it, not only in the bay area but all of california and even here on the east coast. Then i hope it really sounds the alarm that we have got to do something. Its got to be a lot more dramatic. Talk about prescribed burning, on those days is not going to be popular. We need to educate people and say you know, this is necessary because we dont do it we have a scale of fire that is multiple times worse for air quality and of course for habitat for wildlife, the forced asset on public lands that belongs to all of us. And so, we will have to be bold and step over a line and say no we must do this. Because as we talked about 110 years of putting the fire out without doing the other half of the equation the nature used to do. When nature did it in the back along ways in history and find nature used to burn millions of acres at a time for it will go all year until the next rainy season would be that is natures way of hybrid about the mankind helping out, using natures tools using with the native americans used use, we could have a winning equation here. That is we really need, thats what the public demands, that is what the cry out for. In the letter that mr. Daley and others, many others wrote or could write. Thank you again for your parents and for you taking this back to the service there. And again, i really, really appreciate you putting this together for us today and having this opportunity before Congress Might adjourn for the year, we will see. Thank you so much. Thank you Ranking Member, and thank you for always advocating for this subcommittee strong work in the areas of forestry. And my heart is with your constituents as i know they continue to face challenges under the rules of the committee for the record of todays committee will remain open for ten calendar days. To receive additional material and written responses from witnesses or any question posed by members for this hearing on conservation of forestry is adjourned. Subpoen chatter] cspans washington journal. Everyday we are taking your calls on the news of the day and discuss policy issues that impact you. Coming up this morning, we talk about the Upcoming Supreme Court nfirmation battle with carrieseverino and Elizabeth Wydra and the history of president ial debates with mitchell mckinney. Washington journal. Live at 7 00 this morning band sure to join the discussion with your facebook comments, Text Messages and tweets. The first president ial debate between donald trump and Vice President joe biden is tuesday night from cleveland. Biden is campaigning against this vaccine. It is really reckless. All it is is for political reasons. Biden, his whole deal is catastrophic shutdown. His own words, recorded by bob woodward. The president knew back in february that this was an extremely dangerous communicable disease. Hink about it. How many empty chairs around those dinner tables because of his negligence and selfishness. Announcer watch the first president ial debate live from eveland tuesday night cronch span or listen live