Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing On Police Use Of Force Community Policing 20240712

cub÷ qinutes, instead of the previous average, which was 60 minutes. Violent crime has dropped 42 in just seven years. All of this was done without a union. All this was done by freeing the department from a collectivebargaining agreement that had previously city and the City Police Department into an unholy alliance with officers who had violent and lawless tendencies. This brought a by what all observable metrics seem to circumstances, so mr. Logan, for your healing words. I appreciate your account of the progress made in camden. You mentioned the difficult balance that has to be struck in order to empower po do the difficult work and hold accountable those who disregard the justice they are entrusted to uphold. Did this restructuring that ha camden, tell me how it helps to recalibrate ter and authority you mentioned. Thank you, senator. I would say that they listen to the people, from town Hall Meetings to conversationsthey begin to hear from regular residents. I remember governor cme to all near my house several speak to the struggles, challenges, fears and issues of camden in its broken state. The mayor did a great job of ing and restating to make sure we were heard. As the new officers walked the streets, as a preacher im good for a block party in an impromptu cookout. I was cooking on the corner and the officer said im going to go get more hotdogs bthis ooes and gets hotdogs and comes back, and he is electric sliding. That would never have happened in camden. That relationship now if that officer was to pull over somebodyhangesstory, and so that accountability, the relationship created accountability that was put in place because now a big thing that happened in camden is we didnt their facese in conversations were constantly happening. We had the baseball cards with Police Officers. All those things were builtnto our connection, a relationship, which allow for a level of trust. In 10 seconds, i got pulled inront of my house, had cookout, coming back with food, and one of the officers was rough, and i was at my house. The officer said something to the effect of, you are the pastor like, calm down. It was that simple. I dont know if that story would have been the same in 2006 2007 , that murder was in front of my Church Building on saturday night, and they still had the tapemorning, and are come to creation our congregation cried. We prayed that things would changemayor who came to my church and visited a couple of times. I have family that lives there now andtment. Senator, if you dont mind me adding briefly . I taught morehouse one thing to the point is they made a particula effort to recruit from camden, so one of students is a Police Officer in camden. When he goes into the rougher neighborhoods, they know jimmy that does make a difference, to your point. Yes, this committee is an interesting experience. Learned a lot. What percentage of the police forc minority before . I dont have the numbers before. Was 50 . The concern was most pcame from neighboring communities. That is as important as the racial makeup of force. Studies about diversity and Law Enforcement, it matters deeply for trust, but studies show that diversity does not impact use of force rates and misconduct in the way one would anticipate. That is what i am learning from this hearing. Senator whitehouse . I want to take a moment on one section, the primary vehicle for assessing liability for Police Misconduct. As you also know, the primary liability the defense of qualified immunitythat the bookerharris legislation. It limits liability, narrows the window of conduct for which an officer can be held liable, and its original purpose was to protect the individual officer. At the same time it does that it deprives the injured or wronged person, and also it puts the signal back into the agency that something is wrong because they got away with it, because of qualified immunity. So we have heard today Police Officers are almost always by their departments. It is inter it, because the only way you get qualified immunity is ia reasonable person would have it was unconstitutional people who reasonably should have known what they did was unconstitutional, they are ge zing indemnified. Its not like where you have bad cases in good cases. Indemnification is the constant here. There is another report that descbe it as occurring virtually alwso one wonders why the department should be obliged to pay, and it seems there are a lot of obvious reasons. One, they set the policy that officers follow three, they established the training, they dominate the culture that the officers follow, and finally, they provide the discipline that the officers must adhere to. They are the employers in a nutshell so the police cases to regular Employer Liability and there we find a ancient doctrine, vicarious liability, in which acting within the scope of your employment, your employer owns it, and ups drivers drive really safy because ups knows they own those accidents. They will lean towards people who are bonded because they know if they mess up, the company will own it. The incentives are in the right place. Here is my worry and what i would like you to think about. We have a couple of choices p could leave qualified immunity alone. Ip think that would be a terrible mistake. So that means we should strip out qualified immunity, then wecan do just that and hope that indemnity survives, but as you said, there could be a flood of cases that qualified indemnity has kept out of the courtroom. And right now indemnification of rly rickety structure of policy practice, municipal ordinance law, do you agree with that . So far, yes. You know this. There is a surge in cases it seems to me we need to lock down where everyone is right now which is indemnification. Officers should stay indemnified. One of established doctrines in the law would provide that, and that would be a sensible backstop make sure if an officer does something wrong, he doesnt lose his house, and meet all of our concern that the department gets behind the policy, procedure training, culture, and discipline that will prevent these things from happening in the first place. So given those three choices leave qualified immunity alone. Strip out qualified immunit but dont touch indemnification or strip out qualified immunity and protect indemnification and make sure officers are indemnified. Which would you recommend . Moving option, that ensures the e employees. Nothing new under the law . It has been around forever and is the status quote, is it not . Thats correct. Anything to add . I agree. I will yield back the time i have gone over. You can tell five minutes is subjective here. Thank you. Thank you for being here today. Professor logan, if i could come back to you. I am a little familiar, probably not as i should be, but camden. I had the privilege hearing you preach and thank you for your continuing ministry. Can i ask you to come back to your experience in camden. I read your testimony. At the risk of having you repeat yourself, but i dont think it will do anym, if you talk about the restructuring that you helped to participate in, Police Coming to your block in groups of two or three. U said our problems willbe solved overnight. Im wondering if you could elaborate on that. Could you just pick that back up and talk to us about what that looked like in camden and what you saw be successful there and how building those relationships and what that and . That meant . , always talk about crockpot ministry. It takes time. I always talk about crockpot ministry. It takes time, especially when we are changing culture. An officer was with 17 strikes was training, the officer who killed george floyd, we were Training Officers with a bad culture blending into the culture, added to the sysmic issues already andange something, we have to change culture so the crockpot reality was list the crockpot reality, the slow cooker, taking our time was not just going to be through money added, grabbing africanamericans in the tino and calling that diversity and latinrsity. It was gonna take a long overhaul in a long bui out. I applaud the government workers in camden who took their time and work it through, a comprehensive and collective overhaul, because they called and people from all overty to participat that, and that took time. Ca murders. I did multiple funerals of kids under 15, and on the other hand it felt very, very unsafe. All of us wanted to but it was a crockpot repair. As you look back, what are the pieces that stick out to you being the most significant, that really move the ball forward the most . I think it was the Community Policing, where those relationships were developed where they wereactive. That Community Policing was a big deal. And second, hearing from the residents in multiple groups, particularly the pastors, and the mayor did good to pull in as many as she could, so thatrelational Community Aspect was really a beautiful element that helped greatly. Very good. Any written testimony, you talk in her written testimony, you talk about the flaws asking police to fix upstream problems. Can you talk to us about whall us more what you mean about that . That seems like a significant point you are making there. It has been said here on this committee that a pworker the second difficult, he is dealing, trying to administer mercy, trying much, and i want to give credit to those officers who navigate that, but my colleague told us that we failed miserably and we kill a lot of people in america through police, and other countries havent, so when we put if my will not call an electrician, because he will probably mess up my plumbing, so when we put plumbing problems on electricians, they mess uyour plumbing, so when we put so ch on police and that is why the system is messed up, because they shouldnt have to do that, so that upstream problem, it thats why we talk about the broken nature of the system. Can you just give us an example you think of as an just to help us get our hands around it . I will use a negative. Mr. Brooks in atlanta, the officer showed up to ask him, to talk with him. I felt they were applying justice, but mercy. He was sayinso now they are navigating a few areas. Ar they supposed to do justice, mercy and honor . And so in light of that, that is so much to juggle and yeah im a little emotional. I saw that videog with my head a little bit even as we sit here. We give too much to do to officers and we dont train them properlyi think we need to parse this out and restructure completely because we need structural change. [indiscernible] you bet. Absolutely. I think we are finding out no amount of Law Enforcement, no amou force can secure destiny we cant be the social workers. We cant and [indiscernible] we can never resources [indiscernible] that supply we are workers [indiscernible] thank you, mayor. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator klobuchar. And emotion. I think we are all feeling that. Mayor carter, it is hard to hear parts of your story, but just so my colleagues can hear it, you were talking about how your grandpa worked at that railroad in minnesota and how he was called george. In fact, all the porters were caed george so the white passengers only had to hear one name, and out of that, and learn what, your dad becomes one of the first africanamerican Police Officers in the city of st. Paul, and you talked about how you thought about your dad and i know you still do, and the people around him, the officer sees ers he k talk about why it is so important to have this systemic change with policing from your personal experience. Senator, thank you for the question. It is important. Our officerst as disgusted by the video. [indiscernible] and so we are connected with on our officers [indiscernible] that is one of the reasons why it is so important to constantly integrate officers into our community. [indiscernible] t. It is part of our training, our mission. [indiscernible] ok. Thank you. Im going to ask a question, but i will have you follow up on the record. I know senatorham was asking you about other Police Departments, and i think you were trying to make the point this is happening all over the country, not just in one department, so i want to give you a chance on the record later to answer that, but i will turn my remaining time to miss cuba googleupta. Do you think that such a pattern and practice investigation is needed . Yes, i do. Right before the hearing started, we have done two now, i got a response from mr. Boyd, the assistant attorney general. And ey did not commit to doing this investigation. They said the section may initiate a civil action in the name of the United States for appropriate injunctive relief. We will consider the evidence in this case as well as any additional evidence that comes to our attention. Do you think there is enou evidence out there to embark on this investigation . The years of systemic problems in the minneapolis Police Department, coupled with the killing of mr. Floyd and other Police Misconduct in minneapolis would merit a pattern of practice investigation. Ou lead the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, banning of the use of chokehold scum is that right . Thats right. Thats one example of something that can come out of the Consent Decree . Yes. Because we have not had that Justice Department pattern of practice investigation, in addition to the attorney the case in his prosecution of the case, we now have our Minnesota Department of human rights stepping in to look at the department. Senator harri talking about the importance of having outside investigations, which i strongly supported when i was a prosecutor. We had some issues with the Minneapolis Police trying to take those investigations inhou, but in addition to that states, especially now they could step in to oversee these investigations, as well as oversee a similar version of pattern of practice. Can you address that . Consent decrees are not a substitute for National Legislation on this issue because otherwise it is jurisdiction to jurisdiction, even according to the mandate. On this other point other independent offices doing these investigations so while i want the Civil Rights Division to be given the authority it needs to have, it is also important to reques it from others as well. Thank you. Thank you for convening hearing, thank you to each of is a time when our country is torn apart, is filled with anger, rage, division. It is my hope that through this weekend find ways to come together on shared principles. Here is one proposition i believe everyone in this hearing room agrees with. What happened to george floyd was horrific. It was unconscionable. It was clearly a grotesque abuse of police power, and the officers that carried out are rightly being prosecuted. To the best of my knowledge here today agrees with those statements. And every senator on this committee agrees with those statements. I think all of us regardless of party, should demand justice and should demand that the law be applied fairly regardless of race. That is a promise our country was found aspiring to, and a country with a deeply troubled history working to achieve. I also thinkment power that there is a risk of abuse and we have a responsibility to protect individual against the abuse of governmental authority. At the same time, some of the rhetoric that has been used in the wake of mr. Floyds has been inaccurate anda great many of our colleagues use the phrase systemic racism to suggest the entire criminal Justice System is imbued with racism. I dont believe that is accurate. Some of our colleagues have said, and this is a quote from hearing, nothing has changed. From the days dr. King stood on the steps of the lincoln memorial. I think that is demonstrably false. A great deal has changed since then. Our country has made a journey. Senator booker said dr. King pointed to the arc of history bending towards justice. We have traveled along that arc. We no longer have jim crow laws, segregated schools. We no longer have open bigotry that was so pervasive just a generation ago when our country. And i think for young people to say nothing has c gives them a false and inaccurate piwhen you point to systemic racism, something our democratic colleagues often point to as the cause of this, it is worth noting that in minneapolis, the police chief is a democrat, the mayor is an elected democrat, every member of the cityil is an elected democrat, the attorney general is an elected democrat, both senators are elected democrats. Now, dont for a moment to leave that every one of those elected officials is part of systemic racism and oppression, and to tell the american citizens that is what is going on is misleading them and it is harmful. Are there bigots . Yes. Are there people o violate the law . And they should be prosecuted, just like the offiho killed mr. Floyd but to impugn the integrity of everyone working in Law Enforcement is a disservice to this nation. There has been a lot of discussion there has been a lot of discussion of abolishing police has become a new political cause celebre. I want to point is committed to an article entitled policing the police. The impact of pattern or practice investigations on crime. And with the chairmans permission i would like to enter in this article into the record. It is by two economist at harvard university. A word of caution. Because there is a lot of discussion from our democratic friends thing we need more department of justice pattern of practiced investigations into Police Departments. That has become one of the frequent refrains. Let me read from this study because if we care about saving peoples lives , conclusions of thisre is what the study concluded. They examined all of the Police Departments in which pattern of practice investigations had been launched, an they found a real difference for those there was not what they called a viral incident. Violence they found that did not increase crime. But here is what they found. All of the investigations that were preceded by viral incidents of definitely force deadly force led to an increase of homicide in total crimes. We estimate these investigations caused almost 900 access homicide and almost 34,000 excess felonies. So of the members of this committee agreed that black lives matter, demonizing the police, causing them to pull back from protecting peoples lives will predictably cause more black lives to be taken. And so, i urge that we proceed with caution, with a commitment to justice, and a commitment to truth. Thanks, senator cruz. Is that allowing for responses to that . No. Thankou, mr. Chairman. The past three w murdered by Minneapolis Police. Has been both heartbreaking and the response nationally in some ways inspiring. It has ignited a conversation long overdue. In the middle of two other crises, a Global Pandemic and an economic crisis, yet thousands of taken to the streets in every town in our country demanding action to advancjustice and equality. Re leading the way. It icongress to follow. And Rayshard Brooks name has been added to the list. May ask a few questions. We have not heard as much from dr. Goff as perhaps we should. On the line of questioning my two previous senators have about these pattern and practice investigations, ones that look just a focus o way an entire agency is being run, the way a whole department is operating and its consequences. Officer Derek Chauvin has 18 prior investigations. A Training Officer at the time of the murder of george floyd. I was proud to join mycolleagues as a cosponsor of the justice and policing act. It would give the department of justice subpoena power. An important and useful tool and how do you think pattern and practice investigations can ultimately advance Public Safety . As a moment of privilege, i would like to enter into the record the ways in which the study that senator cmentioned that actually show the effectiveness of Consent Decrees, including a very recent one. I wanted to state that. Decrees, the subpoena power is something that the Justice Department Civil Rights Division does not have. It was a real problem for instance when the j investigation into the Maricopa County sheriffs departmentxs with sheriff joe arpaio. We had their situation where the sheriff was unwilling to cooperate with the request for documents, the request for all kinds of information. That is typical around these kinds of investigations. It took at ls for the Justice Department to actually be able to litigate and win a judgment in court that gave us, that gave the Justice Department access. Meanwhile, the unconstitutional policing and profile and National Origin discrimination continue. Without that subpoena power, it reallity of the Civil Rights Division to do its full job, and it can play a factor also sometimes, the Police Departments that may have the most policies you do not wanted to play a factor in limiting where the Justice Department is going to go, but if you got such an uncooperative situation, the lack of subpoena power impedes progress. Off, literally to follow up on what we were talking about there. I am also a cosponsor of the end racial and religious profiling act incorporated into the justice in policing act. That bill would prohibit racial profiling and required data collection. Can you briefly explain how we could use that data on stop, searches and arrests to achieve more equitable and effective policing . Absolutely. Y we wwe do not want to just look at comparisons of race. It is not enough to say often. It is not enough to say that black people have forced used on there more often. If do not know the appropriate point of comparison. The senator asked how much is about poverty. [indiscernible] i take the senator to be asking in good faith. We have to take into account crime rates and poverty rates before we make a determination that police have additional responsibilities above that. The robust analyses are clear. Crime and povertsuffient to explain Racial Disparities and police stops or police use of force. They are a part of the issue. They are not the whole issue. If there were National Data collection on these elements, it would be possible for both federal scientists and Broader Community to get a better sense of how large is the actual level ofd[ violence and where can we be targeting them . That is an essential piece of the equation if we are going to solve these problems. As we have heard from the mayor, from mr. Merritt, police are often our First Responders to a host of problems. They represent broader failings of our social safety net lack of affordablence abuse, Mental Health care. Hank cial servi would reduce the burden on Police Officers and lead to fewer de members . There are places and United States where we do not think about policing as we do in our inner cities. The code for where it is difficult to police because it is dangerous. The places where it is less difficult in our imagination are the places where if there is a Mental Health crisis you can call a doctor or clinician. If there is somebody acting out of school you can put them on time out but they are not a threat to anybody el have resources such that theyeverything, then policing is easier. We are asking less of Police Departments and communities are safer. You do not have to call police, is safer. The word for this in most places is the suburbs. Law enforcement would like to have, even in the inner cities, of doing the same thing. The communities most distressed and most vulnerable have the resources so they have to call less. St in public Mental Health, resources will be there at instead of Law Enforcement having to respond. For each of those social else. Thank you. Our whole panel for your powerful testimony today. Senator tillis. Thank you, mr. Chairman for holding this hearing. I hope it is one of several opportunities we have to talk about this. I also hope that we find ai been heartened by a lot of the comments because it sounds like we all understand this a problem that we need to act on it. Then every once in a while i will hear a drift on my side or you all sides that makes me concerned that we will get close and then we will back off into our corners at the expense of making real progress. I think there is a chance to make real progress. When senator hawley was asking about upstream challenges, it reminded me of a few things i have tried to work on. Back in 2000, 2001 i was a town commissionerwe did something that, it was a time of 25,000 people, most people were not doing and Police Departments but we started funding accreditation for colea. Deescalation. Community policing. And preparing Law Enforcement officers for difficult and dangerous situations. I think that every Law Enforcement states, need to raise the bar and make sure they are training the officers with the best available information. So that is one upstream. Making sure that our Law Enforcement officers are best prepared. They are good people, the vast majority. They just need training and situational awarwhere they are in these untenable positions that humans make that mistakes. Not in the case of george floyd. That was a bad humstakes. I hope he spends a lot of time in prison. The other upstream. It does go down to excuse me, the way that we engage the community. One of the reasons im in the senate now is a high challenge the twoterm republican for center i was trying to get put into my community in an area where if we gave these kids an idea of something other than the day th lives they lived everyity for them in better outcomes. She killed andhen i killed him in a primary and we are still working on that project. Also, i have to tell you the socioeconomic peace, and dr. Goff im going to ask a question on data. I am a data person. I remember id led the in nashville, tennessee. Family fell on hard times. Had to sell park a mile and a half down the road. I can tell you the police were crews and through that trailer park a lot more th that house i lived in a mile and a half down the road and they looked at you differently. There is a socioeconomic and racial component to this. We just have to recognize and dr. Goff, i think the data ultimately is going to help us do a b of coming up with good decision so we can come together on. I am going to contact you because i would like to talk about a more comprehensive view of all of the factors that need to lead into it. I feel like, for example, do we have data right now that would suggest there is between events that are occurring in alg community and a bad outcome like we saw in minnesota . We have the dwe where we can predict, based on certain circupulation, we need to intervene. To reach out to the community or Police Officers and say, there are community that make it more likely than not a bad outcome could occur. Is any Research Like that being done or du even get the point of my question, dr. Goff do you get the point of mice question . Can we figure out what is going to be the next ferguson, the next minneapolis . Are we collecting the data iand i say that first of all, no, the data. What we are collecting in major cities. Police departments 75 have 25 officers are fewer. There are 1000 apartments that is just one guy. In my mind it is not a matter of having to cast a wider net it is a matter of having the ab or another so that we can use it in a predictive way over time. Thats right. Do the analysi because data do not speak to us and lets we have got someone you can part of the question youre asking is about data from communities. How the community is feeling about Law Enforcement because the same on paper shooting that enforcement feels protected very differe outcomes than a shooting that happens where folks do not trust Law Enforcement. We need more indifferent and we also need the capacity to do that analysis. I thank you. I cannot imagine a better pefgon to hopefully get us together and gain consensus on something that passes out of the senate and goes to the president s desk. I would encourage people not to draw bright light bright red lines. Senator blumenthal. Let me say i agree. We can get something done if we do it together. And i think were going to have to do it in the congress the elephant in this room is the president of the United States who issued an executive order todayyone privately would agree is mostly empty promises, no real change, no real standards that can be imposed. And so, were going to have to do it on our own. Up lift up and give vce to some of the young people i have heard of demonstrations alof connecticut, 10 or 12 of them, young womanin bridgeport. And she is telling us, wake up. Stand up. They are going to knock you down. They are going to run you around. Stand up. I want to entery. Without objection. The voice of dion forbes. 10 years old. Unger than her. Are strong. They kill us because we are powerful. Our lives matter. We deserve to breathe. That is what he said in a rally on sunday standing before 300 or so people in downtown new haven. And a Young Musician who stood with him, don pearson, who said i am here to say unfortunately i do not know a black man who is not in some way george floyd. I simply want to meet some black man in my lifetime who has never hadative encounter with police. I could cite countless other voices. I think that americans are awakening to them. As a result oflleagues, senators booker andharris, but i think are in a moment of reckoning. And as a prosecutor, a Law Enforcement career, 4. 5 years and the United States attorney know that the best laws on the books are dead letter. If they are on enforced. Almost six years ago, i helped to lead the death in custody act which requiredng of all deaths in custody. That law has never been implemented. One of the principal steps in the policing and justice act that you endorse persu changeirement. That would be required from willfully to knowingly with recklessregard. You were responsible in the department of justice for helping to enforce this measure. Could you please explain to americans that change would make a difference and why it would deterrent to the nd of brutal killing that we saw in george floyd and the other countless atrocities that have happened in recent weeks and months . Currently the Justice Department has only one statute they can use to prosecute Police Officers who violate the law. Criminally. And it has the highest criminal intent standard there is in the law. Requires notecutor be able to prove that the officer used an unreasonable amount of force but also that the officer he or she was doing was unlawful but did it anyway. And it is thwillfulness standard. It has meant in far too many cases that, that has been terrible cases just not had jurisdiction to prosecute. Justice department prosecutors have long wanted to be able to expand their charging o to allow forduct cases in the criminal context with a slightly lower standard that would include reckless negligence. Having the Congress Give the Justice Department prosecutors th option would go a long way to ensuring that criminal individual officeblatantly thank you. This congress could take that the department of justice incentives for cartots and sticks and that is the department of justice to hold Police Accountable directly. This provision is in the justice and policing at. I just want to say for any of us who watched that video with officer Derek Chauvin wige floyds not here he looked straight into the cameras. He looked at them for a long time because he in no world imagine that he would ever be held to account for his actions. Because over and over again in this country, there has not been accountability criminally or civil for qualifprhat he behave this way. There is no way to understand the look on officeearch robbins phase and not look directly at our accountabilit look get officer Derek Chauvins face and not look directly at the poor systems of accountability. As opposed to a civil action where there may be indemnification when a policeman or anybody else is convicted of a crimehe or she has to serve the time. There is no indemnification, correct . Yes. And criminal accountability as we know is different. Buthis, i said this at the justi department is not a substitute for the systemic reforms that deals with the culture of policing that deal with training and accountability systems, but it ia crucial part of the kind of tools required. I wilsaying i totally agree with you onis systemic reform. I think the justice in policing act is a great and powerful are still first step toward it. I think criminal culpability is a pretty powerful deterrent to he lens and make sur we eradicate racism and education and health care and but it is a determinant deterrent if we can adopt that kind of change. Thank you. I think this afternoon, and something that is ve thank you, mr. Chair, very much for holding this and today. For holding this session today. We t objectiveand you try not to have a but i think every single one of us as we watch the video of george floyd had a very visceral, very personal reaction. An esp floyd was in his last breath callin to his mother. I think there are so many of us that our mothers and i cannot imagine if that had been my daughter, i do not have a son, i have a daughter, if that had been her that had been abused by a person in authority. Should never happen. It should never happen. And that person in authority was a Police Officer so, we a brought here today to reckon with that fact and to understand that there has been an justice for a very long time. Able conversation. It is very uncomfortable because weracism and we do not like to talk about the fact that there might be injtice. In this wonderful l country, which is w we have the opportunity to c together and correct some of these things. So, i am just really grateful to have the opportunity to be part of a group that will be able to make some differensenator grassley did mention iowa is leading the way. They have already passed a criminal Justice Reform bill. And i am very proud of them. It was his store. Our governor, kim reynolds, she sound you signed house file 47accountability that benefits the community and those in poling. The bill included, and this is just a few of those key reforms, they are prohibiting the use of chokehold. I think that is a wonderful step th grab hold of. Literally. Preventing an officer from being hired in iowa if they had previously been fired for misconduct, which is something we have seen over and over again , the hiring of those bad apples. Mandating antivirus and deescalation training and the bill allows the iowa attor offense by an another, which is an important step. Here is something elseable about the the house and the iowa senate. There was not a single point of dissension. And i truly hope that within this body we can all come together. There will be some items that maybe we do not agree on butor. And lets see if we can come together and have a unanimous decision in this body. Defunding the police. And i know that is a quick and ovocative sound bite, but i think there are other ways we can go about pol add Additional Support for police, whether it is the form of Mental Health counselorstn knows that specialize in deescalation. Would like to ask our panel, and i know i am running out of time, but there are ways that we can go beyond the actions on the ground as well. We do still haveems with authority within our prison system as well. All of my questions were answered. So i am working on a ill with senators blumenthal and booker that address what we call a Law Enforcement consent loophole. And that is where in our prison systems where our correctional officer will gain consent of an inmate to have intercourse or other sex ual activities in those abuses exist in our system. Not only do we need to address those officials out on the ground but we alt in other Law Enforcementnd justice situations where we i think this is the timethat. I appreciate working with my colleagues across the aisle on the number of these issues. I apologized i did not get the questions but do you think this would be inappropriate time to address some of those issues as well . I believece brutality in this country is tied to mass incarceration. We build so manyrisons. Te more people than anyone in human history. Our police force, their mission is to keep those prisons filled with drug users, withaccording to our those people need treatment not incarceration. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Those grouped up referred to some mi would like enter those materials entered. R. Goff for pointing out that if the communhaon the supports, the other services it needs, it would not need to call the police as often as many innercity families have to. I would like to thank pastor logan of pointing out the importance of Relational Community asked for policing. So, i wanted to ask, to t panelists here physically, this is a Pivotal Moment that calls for more than just nibbling around the edges of the policing lem. With the panelists were sitting all of you do . Msx gupta you oversaw the pattern of practices cases while you were at the doj. Justice in policing act that we are re i have, yes. Would you say that the elements of the provisions of that bill are the kind match . The times p does it match the size and scale of the problem we are addressing . The Leadership Conference was really pleased to see the accountability framework we put forth reflected in the justice int, like many have said, its a substantial hensive first step that is needed in this moment. Have you read the justice in policing act . I have. Would you say it is a good first step in the kind of critical things pass for us to significantly impact the police some claim the apples. How is the bad apple argument used to basically avoid pattern or investigations against policemans conduct . The Justice Department has continued to prosecute misconduct, but have completely haltedhe use of systemic investigations that really get ataccountability systems and the like. They have issa tiny one in halted the use of this tool and of Consent Decree writ large. So your view is that the Police Department is not just a few bad apples, youre not going to investigate that Police Department which is exactly what attorney general barr department. Congress gadepartmentte Police Departments where there was substantial evidence of pattern and practice i think the Justice Department has abdicated its responsibility to investigate the Police Department and has many have thought crucial and a very vital tool. When attorney general sessions was before thi committeei ask about the Consent Decree so thats whether he intended to live up tothem, and he did not respond. I know for a fact that at the time of during T Obama Administration there were 15 Consent Decrees. Do you know if they are still in effect . They are in effect because they are within days of attorney general sessions beginning, he tried to asked the federal court in maryland to get out of the baltimore Consent Decree but it had already been lodged with an article three federal judge. I think at is why these Consent Decrees are so important in terms of policing reform, because it is they are under the jurisdiction of a court and you cannotl9 politicize these kind of actions by Police Department. s why they are really important. Im disappointed this administration has not injured into a single Consent Decree in three years. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Sen. Crapo i would like to start out with you, the center for policy and equity, of which youre the ceo and cofounder, as i understand it, has worked with over 250 Police Departments aiding Police Departments in understanding and addressing their biases. With that kind of experience nationwide with Police Departments, id like to ask you to just step back a second and tell us what you think the three or four highest prioritd focus on here to dthe can federal level. What would you tell us to focus on at the federal level . Question. There are two tracks i would is,heard and unanimous courts from , significantly more accountability for Law Enforcement, more tools on the table for doj and a doj that is willingols. Similarly we need the Scientific Community and those who work closely with law enforce, to police chiefs, sheriffs and superintendents across the country you want to get rie officers that they know are bad, that their shift lieutenant snow are bad, but because of the contracts in place and the high standards one must meet, they cannot are going to become a problem. The second track, i dont want to be distracted by theea. Communities that dont have the money to te care of themselves, they dont have the Public Resources to take care of themselves, and the only thing that g police its going to make the Community Less safets also starting with communities that are less safe. Will be part of a longer conversation, how to bemost vulnerable and forgotten communities, particularly black communities, how they are able to resources so they dont have to call the police and the first place. Its not a controversial position. As consistent with the American Values this anyion weve come up with so far. Building the American Dream in t communities, and that will help . I cannot tell you the number of communities where i go in speak with young dont imagine that the American Dream, that everyone in this room has had an opportunity to be part of, that it is part of the future they aspire to. Im saying they understand theres a contract wer to them and we have broken that. This second that was just talked about . [indiscernible] the alrnative track that wasdescribed [indiscernible] [indiscernible] support. [indiscernible] thank you, and then finally you are involved with the Leadership Conference for human rights andof how to approach this issue. Could you just take the remaining time of thought here and share with us maybe what you important pieces at the federal vengress where we should focus . The reason why the Leadership Conference put those forward in our letter to congress is because no one peace alone is going togh. In the proposal, the ban on chokehold, creating a national use of force standard, these of the kind of Things Congress is uniquely positioned over 18,000 Police Departments to articulate and change the culture of policing nationally in profound ways prethe other pieces that we had put in that were really about backend accountability because when theres a sense of community, whether in this case we about policin i on culture and interactions with residents. So we put in the need to expand criminal jurisdictions for charging Police Officers who y qualified immunity that is really functioning as a shield for real liability for officers. I cannot i was pleased that the Justice Department incorporated the framework in, but is, in many ways, we need to be reaching a comprehensive step here. Everything else in tried and kind of nibbled edges and try to promote incentives or commission for studies, and the reality is now at we need congress to act in a comprehensive way. Much, mr. Chairman. I ask unanimouconsent to enter into the record statements from Kristin Clark pass, this conversation, that somehow sys youre accusing every Single Person of being racist, which could not be farther from the truth. If you look at instances that have done the Data Analysis fine were paying women different than men for the same work, was everyman that worked in those businesses . Sexist . Is difficult to hear. What we know is that we have within criminal produced during outcomes depending on a persons race. We have africanamerican dying in childbirth at three or four times theate. Even that system has a racia outcome which is systemically racimaybe i should turn to you are a political scientist. Its what im saying right in terms of this it kills a co accused of being racist, it stops an important academic conversation that can actualim wondering if jeff can comment on that if you are still out there. . I justabt me. About race has been a huge distraction. Were trying to solve it. When people are talkithe public, they mean the individual feeling or saying i dont like you and im going to organize my life around that dislike of you. When we talk about systemic racism scientific perspective, thats not what we mean. I am a professional nerd, i am a professor. The people who work with me, the women who work with me hold bison my heart because im a member of the classstemic gender bias. Those two are different things. Prejudice and bigotry are the sole predictor of actual discrimination. Nothing could be further from tific perspective at weak predictors of behaviors. What we need to care about are those behaviors in the streetsug 9rn1d plr retaining thethe programugh the support of congress to help state, local, and tribal law safely, efctively, in a manner that rpect of then to protect. Ere provide resources and training to Service Providers and allied wherving victims of crime. We are focused on a holistic and multidisciplinary approached communities. Othering to ensure that we have a strong and fair criminal Justice System. We believe categorically that good policing and positive are central pillars to do rule of law. There is no higher d safety and wellbeing of private citizens. Programs like you heard from my colleague that brings com leaders seen three consecutive years of decreases of Violent Crime and increased Community Engagement across our nation. We provide funding training to the level of professionalism that is demanded. The Program Remains the largest Single Source of federal funding for state and local law and criminal justice yoencies. Our main our many training opportunities are designed to help officers perform their officers and citizens, and in a way that promotes Good Community relations. I will add that has devotedce of commityoriented policii experienced firsthand the benefits u of making communities safer by implementingategies. We are dedicated to ensuring thples of equity and fa deathized the departments det everyone receives equal protection under the law. The department of justice will be working with Community Leaders to find Constructive Solutions to the hat our will be met with succ your lea issue the opportunity for th providing training tools and resours to law enfor to ensure t their duties safely and important. Continuing this important conversation about better policing states. Less is acceptable. Sen. Graham chief8f art from houston. Chief acevedo thank you for the opportunity to participate in g. Including my home stat senators, john cornyn, and our junior senator, ted cruz. Ore you today as a chief of police in houston, 25, there has been a groundswell of support for policing reform, and we are personally encouraged to it. I want to extend my deepest condolences to theamily of Police Violence across the country. Have found itifficult to speak up. It is important to acknowledge been holding one another to account. We h we ensure that they are sustainable anduu meet the expectations of our diverse mmunities. The challges we are here to discuss, we need to and the realitiesof poor communities andas a society, we must make better informed decisions thatu4 only come with transparency. We respond of 1. 2 asproportionally originate from communities of color. History has shown that underfunding the policean ose most in need. Defunding the overwhelmingly, our communities tell us they dont want fewer comps, they want thatt officers that are service minded, deescalation, other critical training. Several of the topics i have just mrm agenda we released this morning. Over the membership supports the following tenants. Registryined complaintsndincreased training on deescalation, implicit justicethe 1033 military surplus ogram, and a ban on no knock bodyworn cameras must include federal officers. The mccd to moving including sustained commitment to accountability. They have a place the sanctity of life first. When an officertesasts a s of Police Officers that serve with honor every day. Law must do more to purge bad cops from our nks, hwe are urging our citizens to report Police Misconduct so that we can track investigate, and publicly report those complaints. T. Trust breeds respect. Are watching and seeing across our country is reer that trust and respect. Ensuring that our departments s build confidence. The are majorityminority agencies. Ensuring fairness and Public Safety transparency that goes well beyond the role of local law enforct. It mus extend to the district attorneys offices, courts and correctiovul facilities. Ing edf reform, smarter ways to deal with low level drug offensesrams. Some reform minded elected officials including prosecutors and judges subscribe to the theory that it is unconstitutional to keep offenders, including murder suspects, preconviction. With a history of Violent Crimes released pretrial onlytu to instigate more violence against our community. We are continuing to work wi stakeholderspartners, and elected officials across thequestions omhank y good afternoon. Committee, i am the National President of fraternal order of police. Thank you for the opportunity a of my members nationwide. Let me begin by saying that i am the tragic death of george fyd. Order of police shares andthe communities we serve. Police officers must treat all citizenst and understanding, and should held at the highest standard for our conduct. I do not know a Police Officer in america whoctions that took george s life. Ragic as this event was, it must serve as a catalyst for greater good. Within and get out of our comfort zone, look at the things that in many soci issues we arel you that the fraternal order ofstands ready to work with anyone, anyone, policingorder of police is the only laborn, the largest and most copperheads of overhaul of the federal criminal justice e it should be the model we use moving forward as we engage in constructive dialogue. It contains much more than i can cover in five minutes, but i would like to use the remaining of my time to talkings. First, i want reject the argument advanced that s in policing are related to ls, not deflection. Law enforcement exives shouldppropriate Legal Authority to hold their offers accountable. Unions have an contracts, due process, common sense, and safety are integral parts of the Law Enforcement relationship. At this critical time, i ask that we set aside our egosnd our agendas and focus on wtt, the people we swore to serve and protect. They want us to do a job. Lets make a dcuses. Respect to the use of, we were able to lead acharge against a use of force policy. The fop,ma organizationcollaborated on this. By its principals. I believe that if the minneapolis Police Department had used these consensus principles f t outcome would have been drastically different. Finally, for years, Law Enforcement has struggled in that when something goes wrong in society, police are called in to deal with it. Police officers are often expected to be therapists, marriage counselors, addiction specialists, Mental Health experts, homeless advocates, and spiritual adenforcement doesuate into many communities, police e these types of calls. When you a Law Enforcement response. People need instead find themselves in the back of squad cars. As a i am the current chief of police in the great city of durham, north carolina. I have in the Law Enforcement prof my first0 in the city it is an honor for noble to prove noble joins are grieving nation in condemning and that led to the death of george floyd. We are also alarme and mourn the vicious killings of breonntaylor, ahmaud arbery, and now rayshawn brooks. The senseless death of george floyd has unprecedented people from all walks oftice must bethou it is very important to pursue justice against thoust as important that we address the systemic shortcomings and often times failures of our Law Enforcement Justice System. Issues was a small part of a construct, the imbalance of critical resources. History has shown that Many Americans have been is enfrdream from generation to generation. America will nevertial until all citizens are equally valued noble offers recommendations as a result ofthe scope of use of force. A National Minimum use of force policy incorporating the following best practices. Mandatory deescalation training for all officers of deescalation track makes deescalation track deescalation tactics is a priority. Requiring officers toing appli stop another officer when force is being inappropriately applied. Noble proposes interventions that also include mandatory Law Enforcement accreditation as a tional requirement reevaluation of police qualified immunity, providing the civil rightsdepartment oversight over pattern and practicediscrimination, continued appropriations for thertment of Justice Community relations. Data collection in the following categories. Use of force, traffic stops pedestrian stops and detentions. A National Database that includes the listing of officers with patterns of misconduct. We wholeheartedly support the passing of the justicept in policing act, which addresses the loophole that free of oversight and accountability in environments that offer racial tensionnd the continued desecration of what i have always thought to be a noble profession. We also recognize the majority of Police Officers who demonstrate on a daily basis the commitment billing ities they serve. Noble encouras the passage of legislation to reform the system of policing. As an africanamerican w attest to the existenceremain a hunting reality for people of color throughout our nation. It is critical acknowledge the need for an approach to change, then urmapping the way forward toward policing reimagined. Enlisting guardians and noton behalf of more than 3800 Law Enforcement leaders, mostly minority, we thank you for defending the Law Enforcement profession and more listening to the voices of protesters and others around the globe who demand change. I am cautiously optimistic that the upon so that once and for all, black lives are valued in the lives of all Police Officers is more than a counterfeit 20 bill, more than and more important of sibley showing up at the wrong address. Sen. Graham our last panelist. The chief from buffalo. Buffalo grove, illinois. Graham , ranking memberhe committee. I want to thank you for having me here tonight. I am the chief of police in buffalo grove, illinois, also the president of the International Chiefs of police. Any Police Officer who violates their oath of office has no place in our agencies. Theyn of a profession that is committed to preserving life. It is a painful reminder of the work that remains. While the focus that is policing , it will take all of us toimplement systemic collusion systemic solutions. Although it is difficult to recognize right now, policing has made significant advancements. Leaders have knowledged issues of the past, sign out Community Partners to build better futures, agencies have worked hard to increase transparency and revise policies, recruiting officers that reflect the comm] ities they serve, and force incidents focusing on a limited police cultures that preventfrom holding themselves accountable. Despite theseyconcerns and criticism of approaches. Tirelessly. I cannot stress enough that we want to do better and we can. But the answer is not defunding the police are sh resources away from police. Change will require both dedicated resources and an enduring commitment from police leaders, Community Members and elected officials. The problems in our Justice System expand well beyond police. Local budgets have slashed funding for Mental Health among homelessness, Substance Abuse offender reentry programs, educational and vocational training, and programs that provide economic develpolice agencies have been required to fill that void created by these funding cuts. The defunding of Mental Health services in the pas often the only ones to call. Although we are working continually to train officers in crisis intervention, menl health and firstaid, this does not take the place of Mental Health treatment. Ed fulfilling those needs should t come at the expense of police budgets. Emained the only entity of government that consistently and constantly respond to every situation where immediate offer several recommendations. First, the National Consensus use of force policyoad coalition of leadership. It makes clear that the policy of Law Enforcement agencies to value and preserve human life, and they should develop polies and training practices that focus on deescalation and use of force only when necessary. Also, agencies should be required to participate in the fbis national use of force database. It should no longer be voluntary. There is a need to produce use force and a Gold Standard of excellence to prevent incompetent and dishonorable the profession. We believe that a National Databasecertified officers will allow agencies to informed decis and prevent officers who have been terminated or decertified to go to another state and be hired. Police must create a culture of equity and inclusion by working to eliminate racial, bias in the workplace adopting bias free policing as core values. Finally, labor agreements sometimes make it difficult for departments to swiftly problematic officers. While ensuring that Due Process Rights of officers are protected. Theds to be enhancements to allow agencies to discipline and terminate officers where appropriate. In closing as elected officials you hold incredibly important absolutely should use your acts but pleaoy do not lose sight of the fact that the overwhelming majority of men and women in the policing professionbecome Police Officers to do good, protect their commit community, and serve citizens. At its core, it is made up of people who have dedicated their lives and often lost their lives in service to the public. I ask you to not paint the entire profession with a broad brush, highlighting only the bad and overlookg the immense amount of good done by officers in communities evesen. Graham senator cruz, do you want tosen. Cruz i am glad to the u. S. Attorney for the northern district, was a good friend, doing a terrific job. I am glad also to have the Houston Police chief here via video. Sen. Graham now called art. Senator kennedy. I will give you my time. Sen. Cassidy sen. Kennedy i wanted to ask each of you. I think we have six witnesses. I want to cut to the chase and ask each of you what, if any changes you think should be made to qualified immunity . Start with our u. S. Attorney. Ms. Cox thank you, senator. Qualified immunityily a doctrine that is dealt with at the state and locals. I do not have a lot of personal experience with that. I will tell you, in the discussions i have had with the police chief in my district, anytime this is brought up, their responses that this will really impact our ability to recruit and retain good Police Officers. They haveand they want to makeur and that they are putting their officers in a place of protecting them when they have to make splitsecond decisions under a very stressful situation. Mr. Woolf ould join the call join the comments of my colleague. Training is the focus, to be able to provide officers with the proper training. Sen. Kennedy tell k about qualified immunity. Mr. Woolf i would echo the comments of ms. Nealy cox. Mr. Yoes i would echd a little bit more. I think it is this bodys responsibility, as well as the supreme court. I would caution that a Law Enforcement officer has to make a splitsecond that could cost him his life. My fear is, without this in place, what you are going to find his Law Enforcement officers that will be less engaged, which means less effective Community Policingand a fear that their actions eliminated qualified immunity may well hamper our ability to be able to be effective in a Law Enforcement capacity. Chief acevedo the position is very similar to what has already been echoed. I want to echo it and say the same thing. However, we recognize that a thorough discussion, analysis, and review must be part of the conversation asrd. Chief davis i would have to echo chief acevedos response the doctrine was in place for all of the right reasons, the spirit of the law is to protect officers as they act in their official capacity in good faith, i think some of the issues that have been brought up about qualified immunity is that many officers who have been acsed of misconduct have been sheltered under qualified immunity. I would agree that quimmunity should be a law that should be evaluated. Madam president if you were queen for a and you could forget checking with the legislative branch or anybody, you can do what you want, what changes would you make to qualified immunity . If any. Chief davis i am not an attorney. But i would say that the analysis by those professionals who could look at the legislation, could narrow it so that officers can be protected but at the same time officers who have been accused of misconduct or have broken the law, that would not slip through the cracked becausesen. Kennedy do you think it would impact retention or hiring . Chief davis i dont think it would impact retention or hiring. I have been in business for 30 years. T to do this work, knowing that there is a law out there that can protect them, i dont think it would hurt the recruiting processes for police. Mr. Casstevens i wanted to bring one thing up because i heard the discussion on qualified immunity earlier on the first panel. There seems to be several different opinions on qualified immunity. Immunity allows officers to respond to incidents in the field and the current state of law when they make their decision. Much like the u. S. Constitutions position on ex post facto limmunity holds them responsible on the constitutional law at the time when their conduct occurred, not retroactively determining that the conduct was unconstitutional. But qualified immunity does not prevent individuals from recovering damages from Law Enforcement officers who knowingly violated a persons Constitutional Rights or committed a crime. Thanks to all of you. Sen. Whitehouse let me follow up on senator kennedys questions. Chiefh casstevens, if we were to eliminate qualified immunity, repeal, remove or adjust it should the practice that Police Officers are indemnified by their protected . Chief casstevens first of all, if qualified immunity were eliminated, i think that would be dangerous to my profession. Sen. Whitehouse that was not my question. Please answer the question that i asked. Tevens should the department indemnify their officers . Sen. Whitehouse at the moment officers are indemnified if they are found liable. If the qualified immunity rules are changed, should the indemnification that is now the common practice be protected for your officers . Chief casstevens i think that as long as an officer did not commit a crime orsomebodys Constitutional Rights, they should be protected. If they commit a crime violate the Constitutional Rights of someone, they are on their own. Se whiteho davis presume that qualified immunity is stripped away. Would you recommend that your officers continue to enjoy the indemnification that they are now protected under. We have said in 99 or virtually every case. Chief davis no, i believe that if an officer is found to be wrong or criminally in the wrong, then they should not be protected by the department. Sen. Whitehouse section 1983 is not a criminal statute. It is a civil liability. These days, nearly every officer found liable under that does get indemnifare you saying that is wrong . Chief davis i am saying they should not be protected under civil fact wrong in the actions that they committed. Sen. Whitehouse chief acevedo, let me ask you about texas. Ould there be indemnification for Police Officers if they are found civillysecond, i have heard that under law there is a rule that actually prevents found to have committed a iolation. Chief acevedo my recollection of the texas law is that it that if they have acted in an egregious, willful manner in violation of the constitutional law, there is a revision that precludes indemnification by the state. Sen. Whitehouse and outside of the scope of employment is a traditional Employment Law doctrine that covers essentially and every employee in the unit states, ect . Chief acevedo i would assume that. If you commit a crime, we are here enforce the law, no law, so that uld be one of the instances to which this would apply. Sen. Whitehouse president i understand that your membership now as a practical matter is protected by civil 1983 cases and virtually every case that has come up. Would you want to see that protection continued if we adjust the boundaries of qualified immuny . I will echo the same concerns. If a Law Enforcement offic] is with the information they for the officer. However, if the officer is operating outside of the law there are concerns and consequences with that. Qualified immunity does not cover someone who is completely outside what is the norm. The system does review that. I am not positive of the percentage. I believe about 43 of the timere recognized ased immunity. The system does work, it is evaluated, and that determines whether they will receive that immunity. Sen. Whitehouse 43 , that is for qualified immunity being a successful defense. For those people for whom qualified immunity isul defense, that meant that the judge believed that a reasonable, objective Police Officer would not have known that their conduct was unconstitutional. For those who were found liable, it means that the judge found that a reasonable officer would have known that his or her conduct was unconstitutional and, eve cases, in virtually every case, the department has the officers back and provides in officer s conduct. I am surprised it would be the position of the fop that that protection should be stripped away since it is something that your officers now enjoy. We can continue to discuss that going forward. Sen. Cruz thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you to each of the witnesses. I am happy to defer to the senior senator. I apologize. I did not see you. Thank you very much. It doesnt happen very often. He has never seen me defer before. There is a first forcriminal laws are largely a creature of state creation. They are much like our tort laws in that respect. As a general rule, it is inappropriate for the federal governments to dictate to the state what is and is not criminal. There is authority under section five of the 14th amendment and an obligation of congress to make sure that certain Constitutional Rights are not infringed by the state. Since the beginning of the trump administration, how is the department of justice stopped to ensure that state Law Enforcement officials are held accountable for Law Enforcement behavior . I am not sure that i know the answer to your question, senator lee. We have many cases that we look at with our Civil Rights Division. I assume you are talking about state officials. We have two tools, the criminal enforcement tools under 242 and 241. Pattern of practice that we discussed today. But we know that states also have their own laws. Sen. Lee the state laws create an environment where qualified immunity creates a floor, rather than a ceiling wstates allowing for their own. A federal cause of action was created for civil rights complaints against state actors acting under color of state law to deprive someone of their Constitutional Rights. This cause of action is, they referred to now as the 1983 action. It is a vehicle to which someone can seek redress in federal court from undermining of someones Constitutional Rights by state officers. The doctrine of qualified immunity makes it less likely that a plaintiff can succeed in federal court under that federal action. Isnt it correct that it haso bearing under whether a plaintiff might bring or succeed in a state law cause of action in state Court Pursuant to state law . Ms. Cox that is correct. It is my understanding that the federal cause of action puts no constraints on the state. Sen. Lee it is my understanding that both california and iowa have enacted laws that significantly limited qualified immunity within the state. Do you have any idea how many states have enacted similar laws for officers who violate civil rights to be sued civilly . Ms. Cox i do not know. Sen. Lee it will be helpful if someone your office knows. I would love to know in those jurisdictions that do have those, what impact that might have had on the crime rate and also the rate at which police use of power by Law Enforcement continues to be placed. Any changes to section 1983 should of course be made by congress because 1983 as a federal law. In contemplating what changes might be considered with regard to 1983, we do have to consider how a revised policy might impact those people who we are trying to protect. E i believe that we should consider making changes to qualified immunity in the sense that we have a vague standard that has been difficult to apply, it has not traditionally terribly manageable because it is based on a standard that really does not work all that well, i am also concerned that abolishing it outright would have some significant potential to impact individuals particularly in poor and middle class neighborhoods, but particularly those in poor and high crime neighborhoods could be left most vulnerable as a result of a willie nilly decision. Ms. Cox i would echo that. If you would look at one aspect of 1983, you would look at the entire statute and determine what the unintended consequences of that action would be. Sen. Klobuchar thank you, mr. Chairman, senator booker. Chief davis, thank you for being here. Thank all of you for being here. As someone who has served in Law Enforcement for over 30 years what do you see as the most important changes that would be made with the justice in police act . Chief davis i personally believe that National Standards accreditation would be a step forward. There are o many agencies in the country that are allowed to pick and choose policy. Another point i would pick out of the justice and policing act is the National Registry for misconduct. Many officers flowed from one agency to the next after egregious histories and disciplinary histories. I think it would do the industry great justice and potentially shape behavior if we had National Registries of officers that had patterns of misconduct. Sen. Klobuchar thank you. I think that chief acevedo also talked about that in his testimony about how state laws can shield disciplinary records. People can go from department to department. Abl asked him a question on that maybe i will ask him a question on that. And you talk, chief, about a federal solution and why that is appropriate in this area . Chief acevedo certainly senator. Sunshine laws as it relates to Police Officer misconduct. In the state of california, under coakley versus san diego for many years, we cannot even share that information with the public. Having that registry across the National Level for all 18,000 Police Departments would be a huge, huge benefit for the profession. Sen. Klobuchar and absent a change in federal law immediately, local Police Departments could do this on their own, is that right . Or would you have to get a change in state law . Chief acevedo the problem is that state laws are different across the country. In texas under our statute, the only time that we can put out information on discipline is if it is formal discipline. We are kind of a sunshine state. Very proud of that fact. Most jurisdictions, it is written reprimand suspension, demotion, or indefinite suspension, which is the equivalent of a fire in, a written document, a charging document available to the public. Sen. Klobuchar chief davis, you testified in support of implementing a national use of force policy including the prohibition of chokeholds and neck restraint. Some members of the panel do not agree with that. I personally agree with it. That is why i am cosponsor of that bill. Having seen what happened if you dont have those standards in place. For instance, a case in minnesota in the neighboring jurisdiction to minneapolis, the Philando Castile case, where a good prosecutor was assigned and the jury came back not guilty in part because of the standards in law. Can you talk about the standards . Chief davis i think there are varying opinions about chokeholds. Many agencies have already banned chokeholds. The issue is that Police Officers are trained in so many different defensive tactics and maneuvers to deal with various situations. We are trained to know that any maneuver above the shoulders, in the neck area, in the head area, should only be applied or in the past traditionally, only applied in the case of deadly force. Too many times, and we have seen it recently, there is not enough attention placed on that area of the body to not cause serious george floyd, just a casual pinning an individual down to the ground. There are many other ways to restrain an individual without placing a knee on the neck, or any type of object on the neck to cause sen. Klobuchar senator gillibrand and senator smith and i have worked on the legislation that if states do not make the change there is a change to their federal funding. We would also like to see a National Standard of force in general, right . Chief davis ok. Yes. Sen. Klobuchar ok. Omar jimenez was a cnn reporter reporting on protests in minnesota and she was detained after complying with rules. In the days that followed, there were a number of journalists that were arrested or hurt. I care about this a lot and the governor apologized to him and they did an interview and i talked with him myself. How can local Police Departments , while working on peacekeeping how can they ensure journalists have full access to report on protests . Chief davis i think communication is really important between the police and media so that we can identify who the officials are who are working in a communications capacity. I think prior communication is important. Communicating utilizing deescalation tactics we have been talking about, how serious is it to make an arrest sometimes, i have to admit in durham we have had many protesters, just allowing people to have space sometimes so i think the officers on approach have a lot to do with the outcome. Sen. Klobuchar in an updated you wrote you were heartened investigation and prosecution of Police Officers will be led by our attorney general. Why do you think it is important to have an independent investigation, and do you support independent investigation for Police Involved deaths . Is a 36 year Law Enforcement officer, i have struggled watching the video. If you recall, we were probably the first Labor Organization to come out and take such a position against this. I feel strongly when we see injustice, we need to find correction for. I am heartened that his case will get a full review and i have every confidence the Justice System will provide justice for the family. Sen. Klobuchar thank you. Senator blackburn thank you. This has been tremendous today. The first panel was interesting and insightful to help us as we work on this issue. I want to go to the police chief and cover some things to make sure i am making notes properly as we move forward. I have down that it is important to have Law Enforcement participate in writing the standards. We need a nationwide standard that Law Enforcement should be part of developing the set of breast set of best practices. There should likewise be a nationwide database when officers are decertified to keep them from going somewhere else. That there should be standards and practices around use of force and that you would like to see that as practices followed by all. Just very quickly. Short on time. Chief acevedo you hit it on the head. With all the Police Departments we probably have to least efficient model in the world. We cannot have 18,000 different sets of rules. Having standardized critical policies are key in having Law Enforcementhing in on the issues as important as well. Enforcement and labor partners weighing in on the issues as well. We want as it relates to critical policies a standardized approach. Chief davis i agree. Use of force best practices and consistent policy across the board to all policies that are consistent with agencies, no matter how large or small and a National Database for officer misconduct. Chief stevens yes, we believe in a national use of force policy. We also believe in National Standards for training. We currently have different ones for each state. It is unbelievable. For the National Database for decertified officers, in my career i have asked officers to resign and i have had some leave the agency during internal investigations. It is incredibly difficult to decertify an officer and if they leave during an investigation undercurrent labor laws, i cannot share that information to a future employer. It is incredibly consenting for Law Enforcement leaders. Senator blackburn that is very helpful. I think one of the things that conservancy concerns me, we heard years ago about the need for training. One of the mentioned Law Enforcement officers are not psychologists. They are not the person to solve some of these issues. We heard so much about drug issues and we pushed forward to deal with Mental Health. It is not lost on me that what we are dealing with now is problems that built up because of prejudice, discrimination and bias and that there needs to be a more thoughtful approach and a more consistent approach that will be helpful. There are 50 different ways of training and 18,000 Different Police forces. There needs to be some best practices. Just like in other areas and sectors that are considered reciprocal. I have other questions to talk about with best practices and Lessons Learned from the broken window policy and some concerns i have had that we are seeing with autonomous zones, when in seattle and they tried one in nashville unsuccessfully. The problems that developed. In the interest of time, i will submit those. Chairman, thank you for the time. Senator blumenthal. Senator blumenthal thank you for being here and for your service and thanks to join thanks to those who join us remotely. I will share some things that have come to me from connecticut that i think reflect the general feeling in the country. One is from an attorney in hartford named don bell who described a talk he was given by his parents, warning him to avoid any sort of sudden movements and to never talk back to police and he said in a message to me, of all his experience, the impact about what you would expect, the experience is dramatic and even as a attorney, i am hypervigilant around police and maintain a safe distance around police. Another voice from East Hartford a man who recounts his experience and says the experiences are scary, make me nervous, and i have to be extra careful while i am driving because forgetting my turn signal or rolling at a stop sign could lead to something more. I have wondered about these experiences and it was brought home to me at the rally i described earlier by a man named Paul Witherspoon who stopped his car in connecticut and was confronted by two Police Officers who opened fire on his car stopped in new haven. He was 21 and with a 22yearold black woman, who was severely injured. One of the Police Officers is facing charges of assault and reckless endangerment. I know you cannot tell me because he is under investigation, but i know you have testified that from fiscal years 2017 to 2019, the department of justice has brought 100 40 cases 140 cases and charging Law Enforcement officials. How many resulted in convictions . I do not have that information with me but i will be happy to get back to me get back to you. Sen. Blumenthal i hope you would because obviously one of the main issues is making this effective. I understand the reluctance to change standards but wouldnt you agree changing the standard on willfulness as has been suggested by the justice policing act would make 242 section prosecution more likely and you would bring more prosecutions . I will get that information to you because i think it would be instructive and i think it is important to understand how often we would succeed in the cases. I would add when i looked at section 242 cases that the Civil Rights Division brought in 2019 they filed more 242 cases than in the prior 10 years. So there has been robust enforcement and we will have to get back to you sen. Blumenthal how many cases did the department of justice decline . I am not aware of that figure. Sen. Blumenthal how many were differed . I am not aware of that either. Sen. Blumenthal i would appreciate that information. With all due respect, because i was an attorney, and i mean this to you with all due respect there were others in the department should be testifying here. Number one, attorney general barr. There is no more important topic , i do not know whether the chairman agrees with me, there is no more important topic that we will hear in this committee than this. Having been a United States attorney, if i had been sent here to testify for the attorney general of the United States on the topic of this importance without the kind of preparation you deserve, i would be angry. And i would appreciate that information, because this committee has an obligation to consider what we can do to make federal enforcement more effective as a deterrent and as a punishment. I have said before, there is nothing like a potential federal felony conviction to concentrate the mind and to make anyone, including a Police Officer, baby especially a Police Officer, maybe especially a Police Officer, more mindful. We can debate back and forth about qualified immunity and i happen to believe it should be reformed. And i happen to believe maybe municipalities should bear the financial and legal responsibilities. Im not sure what you think of that, chief davis. Right now they have to indemnify the Police Officer. Chief davis absolutely. And i think that is why during my testimony that not being an attorney but really understanding that there does not seem to be much success in the qualified immunity laws the way it is written for victims to be able to sue. We just feel like this is a good time that we reconstruct reform and look at some of the laws that could potentially shape officer behavior. Sen. Blumenthal thank you. Senator cruz. Senator cruz thank you each of you for being here today. I will start by focusing on there are some who were advancing as a political agenda what they call defunding the police, or abolishing the police. And i want to ask each of the witnesses do you think that is a good idea, number one, and number two what would the consequences be for Public Safety if we defunded the police . I have heard those suggestions and in my experience in my district it would be very dangerous. In dallas, we are dealing with 100 fewer patrol officers that we have had in past years for a variety of reasons. What i have heard through my work on the project is they need more officers, more resources and we have been able to bring back to them and they have worked to us in Great Success in bringing resources to the neighborhood. Before, we heard stories of having to go from call to call without being able to do proactive work we are doing in the neighborhood and without having time to do Community Engagement work we have been doing. My fear is if you do find Police Departments, the work we think matters most will not get done. I would echo those comments and say what i have heard from the panel that i would agree with is we should be investing more money into training Law Enforcement and providing them with tools and resources they need. The department of justice has several programs thank you. We have limited time. There are some things we can do in Law Enforcement that would be beneficial about social services and adding coresponders. I can tell you the frustration of dealing with people who need services and not being able to provide them. My fear is defund the police is a buzzword and it takes on different meanings but in reality we are talking about expanding services, certainly its something to talk about. If the discussion is to diminish the ability for Law Enforcement to do their job for the sake of adding additional services, defunding is dangerous and we will hurt the communities we are trying to help. Chief davis i think the terminology, there are different definitions to the defending concept but Community Engagement is important, it would be one of the first areas within the department that would go. The aspect of the department that builds relationships with communities, minority communities really want us to have that would be one of the first things to go. So to defund the Police Department, i cannot imagine who would take over the work we do every day and i do not see that the country realizes how much work the police have taken on, even in the social services realm. Chief acevedo there are some who think we should get rid of policing, which would lead to chaos. Our community does not want less police, they want better policing. The majority of our Community Wants investments in good policing and social services they richly deserve and desire. Chief cassteven in the 1970s and 1980s, the government defunded social services and services that help people with Mental Health, drug addiction homelessness, and issues were dumped on the doorstep of Law Enforcement and we wonder why Law Enforcement struggles to deal with the issues. We wonder why the three largest Mental Health institutions in our country are prisons. Because we forced Law Enforcement to criminalize some of these. Defunding police is dangerous. Reinvesting in social services is mandatory. I believe defunding the police would result in more crime, assault rates burglaries rapes, burglaries. Do you believe that would be the consequence . I do. I believe the crime rate would go up. Chief davis absolutely. Chief acevedo absolutely. Chief cassteven yes. Sen. Cruz everyone across the country was horrified what happened to george floyd. There is no legitimate Law Enforcement purpose for the abusive conduct that cost him his life. If there was one specific step congress could take to prevent what happened to george floyd from ever happening again, to protect peoples civil rights, what would it be . If you could briefly answer. I think what we are doing with swift action on the case, how they are prosecuting quickly and civil rights looking into that, i think what we need to think about is how we are engaging in our community and forming relationships through the Police Department. If congress could give more grant money to work with the Police Departments to train and engage to form relationships so they dont have interactions like that would be helpful. I concur with my colleague. Investing more in Community Engagement for Law Enforcement. I agree. Law enforcement is providing the ability to have a great deal of responsibility but it comes with trust and it is painfully clear we have lost trust and anything we invest back in the community to rebuild trust is what will make a difference. There is no one thing that will fix all of this but one thing discussed was a need for standardization and i would submit there is a policy put together by organizations, a collective agreement for a use of force and training that would go with it would go a great way and having standardization. I want to read a line from your testimony. A chokehold should never be used against a subject who is in restraints and should only be used when deadly force is authorized or justified. I agree with that. Chief davis my colleagues have talked about training. It is very important for officers, but in the george floyd case i think something was very apparent to the world. There was a disconnect between a human being and the officer. Those individuals that were uniforms, the duty to intervene was a miserable failure. The culture of policing has to change. Chief acevedo i agree. The most important thing we can do is more robust processes and laws that help us weed out the unbalanced responders. Chief cassteven only 40 of Law Enforcement agencies report to the use of force fbi database. It should be mandatory for all. Every agency should have some Early Warning system. If there was an Early Warning system in minneapolis, i think the officer would have been flagged much earlier on prior citizen complaints and we could have protect could have prevented this from happening. Thank you. Im going to ask one question. Thank you to the panel. To all the people in the Law Enforcement business, when using a grant would using a grant get your attention . Chief davis yes. Chief cassteven it would. Chief acevedo positive or negative attention . If you lost a grant because you were not doing what we asked you to do, without get your attention . Chief acevedo absolutely. Chief cassteven it would get my attention immediately. To the committee, thank you for the indulgence. I am glad i am sorry it took so long but this is an important part in our nations history. I will hold the record open for questions. Senator booker, thank you for allowing us to submit questions. This hearing is adjourned. [background chatter] if you missed any of the hearing on police reform, we will show you the entire event tonight beginning at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan. What do you think we can do about that . With police reform, protests, and coronavirus affecting the country, watch our live coverage of the governments response with briefings from the white house, congress, governors and mayors from across the country updating the situation, and from the campaign 2020 trail. Join the conversation every day on our lives program, washington journal, and if you missed any coverage, watch ondemand at cspan. Org or listen with the free cspan radio app. Washington journal, every day , we are taking her calls live on the air, on the news of the day, and discussing policy issues that impact you. Wednesday morning, the independent womens law center jennifer discusses the Weeks Supreme Court decision on lgbtq workers and david johns will talk about the Organizations Mission and debate over police reform. Watch washington journal live at 7 00 eastern wednesday morning and join the discussion with phone calls the House Judiciary Committee looks at the democrats propose justice a Simple Leasing act for possible changes. If approved, it goes to the full house. Watch live, wednesday 10 00 a. M. , on cspan. This november we are going to take back the house. Going to hold the senate im going to keep the white house. President trump returns to the campaign trail saturday for rally and tells a. Watch our live coverage starting at 8 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan, on demand at cspan. Org, or listen on the go with the free cspan radio app. President trump today signed an executive order on policing