Host representative Yvette Clarke is a democrat from new york. She is vice chair of the energy and Commerce Committees, and she is also cochair of the smart cities caucus. She is our guest this week on the communicators. Start with that smart cities caucus. And how doat is it, you envision smart cities . Rep. Clarke we decided to establish a bipartisan smart cities caucus, originally darrell issa with my cochair. It is no congresswoman from indiana. Peter susan brooks. Rep. Clarke susan brooks, exactly. Technologyt already is a major part of our lives. Uses a utility that we can to make sure we are economically feasible going into the future, that we are inefficient in our use of energy, and it enables our society to be far more centuryve than our 20th industrial age. We are looking at the fact that so much of what already exists in society is connected. And what our smart cities caucus does is it looks at four we arent areas of how connected. One is connectivity. The other principal being sustainability. The other being mobility. And then the workforce. And how all those components Work Together to make sure that in the 21st century our Civil Society is given the opportunity to really reach its full potential utilizing the technological advantages advances we have in this age. Peter you refer to it as a utility. Utility like as a plumbing and electricity and streets and things like that . Rep. Clarke it is something we use, but it is more of an infrastructure. I think we look at communities that are already wired, broadband has been deployed, ways in which we can ask mys on that infrastructure we can maximize on that infrastructure to build our citizenry. When we talk about the smart cities caucus, i always say it is for our communities. This can be applied in urban and rural areas, given we have the appropriate infrastructure. Build out peter do you see congress having a role when it comes to funding smart cities . Rep. Clarke i think we do. I think we can incentivize our partnerships with the private sector, many of which already have a lot of that infrastructure build out in different parts of the country. But there are gaps. In order for us to be fully integrated and fully utilizing and maximizing technology in all of its permutations, it is important that we partner and incentivize private sector engagement. Peter before we introduce our guest reporter, one final question on this. What about your district in brooklyn . Do you consider it a smart city . Rep. Clarke absolutely. We are at the very beginning of building out a smart city. We were fortunate very early on to convert our old telephone booth infrastructure into wifi kiosks, and they are strategically located across the city of new york. That in and of itself provides a that setsommunicating out a predicate for what can be done with sensor technology, how we can regulate our lighting systems. There is so much that can be done just from that platform alone. We are looking at how we can integrate into the use of that Energy Source that will be sustainable. There have been some entrepreneurs who talk about how we can connect solar to the use of those kiosks as well. It really has a footprint in the city of new york that gives us, i believe, a great edge in terms of fully integrating all of our needs into a smart city. Peter joining us is a cybersecurity reporter for the washington post. In a smartre we cities competition with china, and how are we doing . Rep. Clarke i dont know. I think we are in a competition with ourselves. I think china has done far more investments. Easier when you have one guy making all the decisions. Here, we have 50 states. We still have a lot of work to be done in terms of national infrastructure. To a certain extent, i believe we are behind in terms of the build out. Do we have the knowhow and ability . Yes, we do. Do we have the technology and the ability to roll it out . Yes, we do. What we have to get is the will to do so. Joseph there have been a lot of stories recently about cities not being able to protect the data they already have. We had attacks in baltimore and atlanta and other places. Should we be concerned about gathering more data, some of it about citizens . Rep. Clarke we have to build the capacity, because any vulnerable link in the United States is an attack on all of us, notwithstanding the fact that there are certain parts of the country that have far more robust cybersecurity protocols. A portallink creates through which anyone can invade, whether it is the pentagon or it is your local municipality. Joseph should congress be doing something to ensure there are better cybersecurity standards as these things are built out . Rep. Clarke absolutely. We have talked about cyber hygiene and how we should not be retrofitting, but have those securities baked into the technology we are using. We have to continue to push for that. We have to continue to be vigilant around that, because we say this is what we want to accomplish and then somebody is looking for a shortcut. It is that shortcut that creates the vulnerabilities that makes us vulnerable in the end. Peter to follow up on what joe asked a minute ago on this information and its potential for getting loose, should cities have that kind of information about their citizens . Rep. Clarke they are going to have to. That is the only way to really address local concerns. He should be mature enough at this stage of our development in the Technology Space to protect peoples information, to have the proper protocols in place to make sure we are therering and making sure are no nefarious uses of ouronal data happening in city, our state, and our nation. We are not there yet. There going to need assistance of a cybersecurity workforce, and that is again part of the smart cities goal, is to establish a workforce that is committed, that is focused, that is welltrained, and constantly learning what it is to protect personal data, infrastructure, everything that is needed to make sure that as we build this 21st century infrastructure we have the workforce commensurate with that. Rep. Clarke do you think joseph do you think congress is commensurate with it . Ofre have been some hearings Mark Zuckerberg where people have questioned whether congress has the technology and cybersecurity savvy to legislate in this area. Now we are inviting a lot of companies who will be in charge of smart cities to collect more data about citizens. Can we ensure that is being done responsibly . Rep. Clarke i think we have an obligation to do so. We are not a monolith in the legislature at all. You have large bandwidth from younger folks who have lived their lives through every usage of technology to some of the more seasoned members. We are not going to rely on the flip phone crowd to get those protocols, but we can and we do have the capability through other members who have really studied this, many who are very inent in privacy issues, cybersecurity issues. We have a number of members who were in the cia and the fbi. We have access to the information we need and to the technicians who can help us to craft what is important. And we have them create the type of protocols that grow with the rapid growth in technology protocols. And so, i think we are capable of doing it. We just have to have the will and the bipartisanship behind it. Joseph smart cities have been implemented in china. There is often a hazy line between the use of data for Public Safety and first surveillance. Especially with facial recognition and policing, you have expressed a lot of concern about the way facial recognition is used in the United States, in Public Housing and at the border. How do you ensure you get the good stuff from these connections and not the bad stuff . Rep. Clarke again, it is all about how you regulate things, how you legislate things, and how you create policies that are keeping in the values of your society. Law enforcement has a unique role in terms of the utilization of technology. It can be used for good, it can be used for bad. The hope is as we are becoming more enamored with the use of technology that those who would use it for bad will be outliers. This is howtice is we are going to use this technology, and under these circumstances. A child is kidnapped. Now you can get footage that shoots from one location to the next location to the next location far quicker than the Human Capacity to send that information along. On the other hand, you dont want to have a situation where you are babysitting a child and the information that could have come to a Police Officer doesnt. They dont recognize you and you unfortunately and up with an incident that takes someones life. It is all about how we use technology in a smart way. And how we set the protocols, how we train the workforce to use it. Joseph is there a concern that technology is developing too fast for the lawmakers and the regulators to keep up with it . Rep. Clarke i think, again, it is clear who the legislators are. There are so many folks who have spacey delved into this and are very apprised of how the technology is evolving, how it is being used, and how to put guardrails around it. We have to access those folks. We need to move them to the fore so that expertise is something that is treasured and that we maximize on. Peter representative clarke, do you hear from people or do you have a fear of the socalled big brother syndrome . Rep. Clarke i dont. I dont have a fear of it. I think it is important, however, that we set up guardrails, that we recognize privacy as a very important part of this conversation around the use of technology, and that we acknowledge it in the same way the folks in the eu have. They have set up great protocols around managing data. We have yet to make that step here in the United States. I consider our nation to be the weakest link because we havent. And those conversations we are already having on the hill because it is very important we do not make offense the driver, the deployment of technology, but the wellbeing of society is at the core of what we are trying to accomplish. Peter impeachment inquiry, Election Year coming. Will to the political pass cybersecurity or privacy legislation . Joseph i rep. Clarke i hope there is. The house of representatives has passed 252 pieces of legislation already in this congress, and they have gone over to the senate and they are languishing there. I think we can do all of this at one time. The legislature is that way. We have committee assignments, we have members working on various pieces of legislation. We can maximize our time, but we need willing partners. The legislative body only works if both chambers are working. Unfortunately, that is not the case right now. Joseph one of the biggest pieces of legislation members of congress are trying to get through our mandates on Election Security. That has been largely stuck in the senate. Leader mcconnell has said less than 250 million to Election Security with no mandates behind it. Is that sufficient to protect 2020 . Rep. Clarke it is not sufficient, not from the information we have gathered thus far about the vulnerabilities. 15 odd different election systems because it is governed at the state level. Than sayo do far more we are going to allocate funding without restriction, without targeting its use for securing our election systems at the state level. Has been able to accomplish a standard. We cannot even agree at this stage that everyone should have a paper trail. When you are at that stage where you cant even agree that we should have a written record or a printed record of people voting, we have got a long way to go. Joseph one of the things you focused on in terms of Election Security is deepfakes. How concerned are you that this could be an issue in the 2020 election, the videos that look like but are doctored . That look lifelike but are doctored . Rep. Clarke i think it is a threat to Society Overall because deepfakes are deeply fake. To the naked eye, you cant really tell the difference. So we know that in the last election there was a lot of meddling in social media. Imagine if the words that were p ut out to dissuade people from voting came with a video depiction of and it came with a video depiction of it, and it shows someone who is making avered statement they didnt make. Justs implications beyond the on just a fictional depiction of something going on. It can psychologically create a real problem for americans. So it is important there is a disclaimer that indicates to individuals that this has been tampered with or this has been altered, this has been modified, this is for your entertainment. There should be a watermark so people can distinguish between what is real and what is not. Deepfakes can also be weaponized. The Biggest Issue has been in the revenge porn space. And this is happening regularly. We are basically creating in it islives having basically creating in peoples lives havoc. Important that we pass legislation, and that is getting ahead of things because right now it is not widely oftributed in the context socially acceptable social media. It is basically relegated to the margins right now and the dark web. But at some point, it can become very prevalent, and it is important that the American People know that these are deceptive uses of video and technology. Peter is your deepfakes accountability act backed by bipartisan support . Rep. Clarke it does. I am hoping we can move it because when we are talking about elections and trying to that has election toegrity, once you move them these video depictions that are deceptive we are now in a totally different space and trying to get back to a place where we understand truth as truth becomes even more of a challenge for us. Peter congresswoman clarke, you are the chairwoman of the Commerce Committee. What is your take on Silicon Valley and the social Media Companies . I dont want to generalize, but what i would say is we have to build a much more healthier relationship with the American People. I think many have been driven by being preeminent in their space, and with that preeminence comes a certain level of arrogance and abuse. And that is not in the best interest of the American People. I find many of these firms are not reflective of the diversity of the people of that country. And when you are talking about developing algorithms and a whole host of other things, if you are only coming from one perspective you are baking into the system discrimination that is going to be very hard to unpack once it is baked into the system. Joseph you talked about finding the right advisors to help move toward a more connected, bigger data future. Are there particular people or groups in or around the Tech Community you look to, to advise you on that . Rep. Clarke everything from the Energy Sector to the tech sector these areking sector, industries that have had out of necessity to protect their infrastructure, whether it is banking or it is our oil and gas or our electricity grid. There we will find a lot of folks. Also in the tech industry. They are building it. As they build it, we should be having some level of discourse so that we understand with the obligations are of what is being built and how it is being deployed and what it means for Civil Society. Are a lot ofthere young folks who are looking at the defense industry, looking at helping our country. These are folks who have the wherewithal to advise, to provide us with the level of intricacy that we need not only to look at what we have before us right now, but where things are going in the future. Joseph one thing that is often paired with the move to smart cities are 5g wireless networks. They are supposed to be magnitudes faster than the current wireless infrastructure. Are you concerned about the security of 5g networks, and is the Trump Administration doing enough to keep huawei and other Chinese Companies out of those networks . Rep. Clarke no, we are not doing enough to keep huawei and other nefarious actors out of our networks. But i believe we have what it takes to do so. It is interesting because i have even heard some of the folks in the utility space, the electric sector, talking about 10g. Now, but there are already discussions about 10g. Idea. No maybe you blink and everything disappears. I dont know where we are going with that one. But it is important if we are going to really build out a smart city that 5g is a utility we need to be able to access and maximize on. The problem is we have not fully deployed broadband yet. The Digital Divide is always a concern and an issue, whether it is Rural Communities or what we call digital deserts in urban communities. The one thing we dont want to have inequality exacerbated because we are unable to crack the code around how we make 5g and broadband ubiquitous in the United States. And that is one of the things we are looking at the smart cities smart communities caucus. Peter we ask this of every member of congress who comes on this program. Would you own a huawei phone yourself . Rep. Clarke no, i wouldnt. I am just concerned about our lack of negotiation, our lack of thatligence, and the fact we know competition breeds contempt. With these nations who are clearly looking to eat our lunch, i am concerned. There has been some reporting of eis usecern with huaw of technology. They are not the only ones. I dont want to stigmatize huawei. There are a lot of people who like their devices. I personally listen, people are talking about alexa, right, and amazon, and the fact that a lot of the technology, when you think it is sleeping it is actually recording. There is a lot we have to unpack with personal technology within our homes, within our communities, throughout our Civil Society, and how we secure it in a way that our privacy and personal information comes first. Congress isou think prepared to do that, given all of the difficulties . Thinklarke listen, i there are enough folks with the wherewithal to do it. Now, whether we are at that point right now, i dont believe so. I think there is a lot more we can learn, must learn, and we must collaborate with in order to really set the right protocols in place. The last thing we want to do is stifle innovation. The last thing we want to do is inadvertently put people at risk. So it is going to be important that we engage, whether it is m. I. T. We have enough around us. Even our national labs. We have the capacity to do it. We just need the will to do it. When you are at home in brooklyn, do you hear about 5g, where to place the towers, Net Neutrality . I hear about Net Neutrality a lot in my constituency. The facial Recognition Technology roll out and they in the private sphere has become a major issue in my district. People are aware of the fact conduct business, we cant conduct our lives without interfacing with technology in all of its manifestations. What they are concerned about is how that is managed in a way in which it adheres to american values. That is the challenge that we all face, because we keep sort of moving the goalpost on what is an american value. I think we need to, you know, we need to make it clear not only to the American People, but to the companies that are developing technology what those values are and what our expectations are in terms of how we address our concerns. Recently, there was a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg around ads. There was some questioning about whether these ads that he accepted on his platform were truthful enough. So, you know, we have to be definitive about the fact that we want the truth in america, right. If thats the case, are we willing to sacrifice the purchase of an ad in order to make sure that truth prevails . Are one of2016, you the authors of a bipartisan report from the judiciary energy and Commerce Committees about encryption, which recommended that the government should not in any way impose any requirements on encryption or we aken encryption. What they wanted to do was to build a back door so you could actually get information through sort of a portal. The concern was, you open up that portal, anyone can get in. We are not at the stage where our fluency in encryption or technology for that matter would protect us, should that be the case. Attorney general william barr has renewed that debate and said that it could lead to much more Child Sexual Exploitation one facebook implements when facebook implements end to end encryption. Have you rethought your position enters their any chance congress and is there any chance congress would rethink it . So. Think we have to think about the dangers and the benefits versus the burdens on society. These uses of technology become more and more prevalent in society. What we are going to have to establish is protocols around. Protocols we the use in everyday Civil Society the same that should be used for the pentagon . You know, these are the types of questions we have to answer. Representative Yvette Clarke, democrat of new york, vice chair of the energy and Commerce Committee and also cochair of the smart cities caucus. Joe marx of the washington post, thank you both for being on the themunities communicators. This episode and all other episodes available as podcasts. The house will be in order. Beenr 40 years, cspan has providing america unfiltered coverage of congress, the white house, the supreme court, and Public Policy events from washington, d. C. And around the country so you can make up your own mind. Cspan is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. This veterans day monday on cspan, at 11 00 a. M. 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