Transcripts For CSPAN House Judiciary Subcommittee Hearing On Women In The Criminal Justice System 20240714

I am very pleased subcommittee is holding this hearing. After decades of policies that led to mass incarceration, we are finally at a point of examining the policies and the consequences. What has been missing from the discussion of criminal Justice Reform as the special and specific impact the tough own crime arrow has had on women and children. Todays hearing begins a discussion about women and the criminal Justice System. It is critical we understand how and why women become involved in the system, what happens to them when they are in one when they are incarcerated, and what happens when they are released. We need to what happens to families and especially children when women are incarcerated. We need to examine the special needs women have when they are incarcerated. What is different . What happens to their children when they are in the system and when they are released . Federal law can lead to termination of parental rights if the child of an incarcerated woman remains in foster care beyond 18 months. Some states have even shortened the timeline. If a woman receives a sentence of five years, why should she phase losing her children forever to adoption . Examine a pregnancy will incarcerated is the most obvious difference, specifically prisons and jails are not designed or equipped to deal with the issues of pregnant women in custody. I would like to recognize charlotte cook. Wave your hand please . While in prison, she complained she was pregnant. The medical staff insisted it was just because she was fat and stressedout. After much persistence, a blood test world she was pregnant. A blood test world she was pregnant. She had complications. Her son was born at four and a half pounds. 18 months later, he was diagnosed with severe autism. Womenalth needs of regardless of brain and see is different. All women should have access to appropriate medical care. It includes access to conic to gynecological care and not just during the childbearing years. What is to be done . Through this hearing, we will learn the common reasons why women enter the criminal Justice System. This testimony must inform our next steps on sentencing reform. Carmen ony of ms. Shank. Man and ms. We must also consider methods of reviewing extremely long sentences as the number of women serving life sentences is on the rise. One out of every 15 women in prison, at least 7000, a serving a life or virtual life sends while 80 of women in the criminal Justice System are mothers. These life sentences do not only affect the person incarcerated, they affect the children who lose a parent. The conversation must include a conversation about their children. The urban Institutes Research shows that staying in touch reflects positive outcomes for the children and their parents, which reduces recidivism. Communities must be a part of the conversation. Teachers and staff should prioritize knowledge and sensitivity about issues children of an incarcerated parent face. Schools should spearhead efforts to meet the needs of incarcerated loved ones. Support groups, extracurricular activities, providing opportunities to process experiences through poetry writing, art, and journaling. If we do this, we can perhaps reduce the statistic that 50 of children who have a parent incarcerated windup incarcerated later in life. Connections should be made with Community Programs and local Service Providers that serve families affected by incarceration for additional support. We cannot ignore the conditions of women in prison and the difficulties of their reentry back into communities after the release. I hope to explore how we can improve conditions of women incarcerated to ensure their most basic needs are met including the needs of incarcerated pregnant women. Any facility that incarcerates women must be held to minimal standards of care. Women will no longer be overlooked in the criminal justice conversation. We must have an overall approach to criminal Justice Reform that specifically considers women. I look forward to hearing the testimony of our panel of witnesses and the opportunity to discuss these issues. I know rick i not recognize the ranking member. To each of our witnesses for being here today to discuss the impact of the criminal Justice System on women and girls. It is crucial we take a step back understand the importance of the criminal Justice System in the first place. Menenforcement officers, and women of all races and backgrounds put their lives on the line every day to put to protect our communities. They make these extraordinary sacrifices to ensure children are safe from exploitation by sex offenders. They do that to keep women and girls safe from Domestic Abusers. They make the sacrifices to defend the weak and the vulnerable among us. Importantly, they do it to uphold the rule of law. We should all agree on these fundamental principles. Our goal is to ensure lady justice is blind. That bias has no place in our criminal Justice System. As my good friend, the former chair of this subcommittee once said, we should strive for criminal Justice System that is not just respected by the american people, but is worthy of their respect. Willformer prosecutor, i was to be jealous advocat a zealous advocate for the truth. I encountered crimes that were shocking to my conscious. In those cases, enhanced sentences and mandatory minimums were fair, and they were just. Crimes committed against children, the most vulnerable members of our society, should stick with us. They should haunt us. They should spur us to take action. Debate in congress has been about criminal Justice Reforms and the impact of mandatory minimums and how to reduce recidivism. We should be vigilant in determining the causes of increasing female incarceration rate in this country. We should be open to addressing in a bipartisan fashion, the unique needs of women and girls in our criminal Justice System. Debated criminal Justice Reform, many states have acted as laboratories of democracy, crating innovative ways to handle their unique challenges in providing congress with a view of what works and what does not work. We can, and we should learn from the kid from that. Somes not forget that socalled nonviolent offenses there are victims to numerous to mention and unfortunately too easy for us to ignore. Joke traffickers drug traffickers that profit off of the importation of drugs like heroin and fentanyl leave a trail of destruction in their wake. The race or gender of drug traffickers does not matter. What matters is they are is that their victims come from all backgrounds. I yield back. It has my pleasure to recognize the chairman of the full committee. Mr. Nadler. I think my colleague from california for holding this important hearing on the special issues related to women and girls in the criminal Justice System. In recent years, theres been a growing consensus that our communal Justice System must be reformed. One critical element of this conversation that has been largely absent is consideration of the unique experiences and needs of women and girls in the system and our responsibility to develop creative ways to address those issues. It is particularly urgent we do so because women are the fastestgrowing segment of our nations incarcerated population. Recent efforts are partly responsible for a slight reduction in the rate of reductions in the rate overall. The proportion of incarcerated women is rising. This trend must be examined. In addition, we must also consider whether reforms already instituted across the country are appropriately designed to address issues faced by women and girls in the system. These issues are numerous and diverse, impacting all stages of the criminal Justice System. One such injustice is the socalled girlfriend problem. A woman in a relationship is held responsible to a conspiracy charge for the entirety of the criminal scheme orchestrated by her partner. Often involving Drug Distribution in which the woman had minimal involvement. The woman may even receive a harsher sentence than her relationship partner because the more culpable partner is able to cut a deal. Partner less culpable does not have any useful information to divulge because she does not know any. This situation is important because the were on drugs appears to be a large driver of the incarceration rates of women. As illustrated by the fact that the proportion of women in prison for drug offense has increased from 12 in 1986 25 in more recent years. Another problem is the impact of pretrial custody on women. Over 60 of women who are incarcerated have not even been convicted of a crime. Yet, they are held in pretrial custody in jail this is particular disturbing because many of these women are the only providers to their children. A survey revealed more than 150,000 children had a parent in jail because the parent cannot afford bail. Presentede the parent a risk to the community. That means the children are impacted by pretrial detention in startling numbers. This problem is often caused by pretrial incarceration of sole provider mothers. We must take steps to address this crisis. Must also focus on the key on the unique inequities women face. Congress finally passed legislation implanting reforms at the federal level that band shackling during poignancy. These provisions were enacted last year with bipartisan support, coding with the support of doug collins. Much must be done to improve the conditions. I hope this will also be a bipartisan priority. Planss committee develops to further reform our criminal Justice System, it is clear our efforts must be informed by the unique issues faced by women. I appreciate the chair for holding this hearing. Hearing fromd to our witnesses. I killed back the balance of i yield back the balance of my time. It is my pleasure to introduce todays panel. Ms. Jessel and mccarty is Deputy Director the Washington Legislative Office at the washington Civil Liberties union where she represents the aclu before congress. She covers very various criminal justice issues including federal sentencing, Prison Reform, drug policy, and capital punishment. She previously served as lead counsel in this subcommittee. It lowered the 100 to one disparity. Ms. Cynthia shank is the mother of two beautiful children. Under drug sentence conspiracy laws was commuted by president obama after she served eight years in prison. She was featured in the hbo documentary, the sentence ms. Piper carmen, author of orange is the new black, which is about the 13 months she served at the Federal Correctional Institution in danbury connecticut. She teaches writing classes at two state prisons in ohio as an affiliate instructor with oberlin university. Ms. Alex because zero is the legal director for Prison Policy Initiative and played a central and a boating Prison Policy Initiative campaign against gerrymandering and lead work against the second major issue, sentencing enhancement zones. Analyst atlicy independent womens forum. We thank our witnesses for per dissipating. Your written statement will be entered into the record in its entirety. I ask that you summarize your set your testimony in five minutes. To stay within that time, there is a timing lay on your table. When the light switches from green to yellow, you will have one minute to conclude your testimony. When the light turns red, it signals your five minutes has expired. I hereby remind each witness that all of your written and oral statements made to the subcommittee in connection with this hearing are subject to penalties of perjury. Thank you, chairwoman bass. The american Civil Liberties union would like to thank you and the raking member for the opportunity to testify in todays hearing. Prison is a womens issue. Lost in the sobering statistics in this countrys prison population is the degree to which women are ensnared in the comely Justice System. Over the past 30 years, the number of women in the coming of Justice System has grown especially. Women are the fastestgrowing segment of the prison population, increasing by 700 from 1980 to 2017. A rate twice that of men. Today, or 200,000 women are incarcerated in more than 200,000 women are incarcerated across the country. The majority are incarcerated for lowlevel offenses. Most often, property and drug related crime. As the rate of incarceration has risen dramatically in recent years, the percentage of women sentenced for crimes and bone violence has fallen. Much of the growth in the womens prison population over the past 30 years and be attributed to the world drugs. 1988 to 1999, the number of women in state facilities for drug offenses grube 888 . Are and poverty offenses fueled by poverty. Experienced by many women cycling through the criminal Justice System. In addition to poverty, what often lands women in prison is there history of physical and sexual abuse and Substance Abuse problems. They put dissipate in more serious crimes, women are minor accomplices. When women commit homicide, they often do so to protect themselves from men. Women of color are disproportionately represented. Were morelack women than twice. Latina women were 20 more likely than white women to be incarcerated. Although the Racial Disparities among the incarcerated women has narrowed over the past 15 years, the legacy of the disparity remains. Girls are more likely than boys to be in the juvenile facilities. They are far less likely to be detained for violent offenses. Women make up approximately 7 of the federal prison population, almost 13,000 women compared to 1980 when there were 13,000 women in state and federal prisons combined. Womenthan 70 of the sentenced in 2017 in the federal system were convicted of drug trafficking, fraud, or immigration offenses. In the same year, 60 of females sentenced had little or no prior criminal history. Women frequently end up in federal prison due to federal drug conspiracy laws. Too often, federal drug conspiracy laws disproportionately punish those who unknowingly find themselves caught in the net of drugrelated activity, even in peripheral role. Involved are minimally in drug dealing but have partners or family members involved in the drug trade can be required to serve long senses as a result of long sentences as a result of conspiracy. Some of these relationships are coercive and leave way and leave women with few other options. To the burden of women behind bars is the majority of women in the prison are mothers. Since 1991, the number of children with a mother in prison has grown 131 . The majority of these women are custodial parent and primary financial providers. Mothers behind bars are five times more likely than men to report that their children are in foster care. The existence of parental relationships and be endangered when a parent is incarcerated. Incarcerated parents who have not abused or neglected their children are far likelier to lose their parental rights permanently in a nonincarcerated parent who has assaulted their child. Women are the Fastest Growing incarcerated population in the u. S. Leaving families without a mother. Uniquee recognize the circumstances, needs, and consequences associated with women, we will never truly address the mass incarceration problem. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to come here today. Shank. Is cynthia in 2008, i was convicted on drug conspiracy charges from a crime that happened when i was 24 years old. I met a man when i was 24 in 1997 in the course of our relationship, he grew into a drug dealer and became a large drug dealer during my relationship with him. He was very abusive to me. He kept keeping me from my family, for my friends. To the extent that there was locks on all of the doors and bars on all of the windows. Last year i was with him, i was not allowed to leave the last year i was with him, i was not allowed to leave the house. His paranoia and control took over to the point where i had no control over anything i could do. He was murdered in 2002. I was initially charged with conspiracy to his drug operations. The charges were dropped. I moved on with my life. I gave my life to the lord. I started focusing on myself and bettering myself. I met a wonderful man. We got married. Had two beautiful daughters. I would bring it with my third daughter when i was indicted fiveandahalf years later on all of those crimes that were committed five or six years prior. In 2008way to prison when my daughter was six weeks old. Autumn was four. Abel was two years old. Needless to say, prison destroyed my small young family. To is set up to set up separate industry bonds. As a mother, need to be there for your children. I was initially sent to illinois. I was getting regular visits. I was able to see the girls six to eight weeks. The prison closed. I was sent to florida. Now, i saw my daughters once a year. There were still so young. During my time in florida, my husband filed for divorce. He was serving the sentence with me. I wanted him to have a chance at a life. Sorry. Spent eight and a half years in federal prison before i was given clemency by president obama. During my time in federal prison, i met many women who were just like me, who were serving long sentences for crimes related to other than husbands or boyfriends they had little knowledge of. I had to witness and hear the cries of mothers at night who had just signed over custody of their children because they could not look at be there for them. They were taken away from them. To hear mothers cry at night over and over again, different mothers every night, for something to have your child taken away from you forever and signed away is something i will never forget. Andng back from a visit having a mother cry in my arms because her daughter said, the person im staying with has been touching me. This is there these are the realities. When mothers leave, they are put in places where they are not 100 protected. What is going to care for your child the way mother dies. It is the children who suffer. Tot i went away, i was able put my daughters in play therapy. Autumn started play therapy when she was four years old. She continues to be in therapy now. I do not know what the cost of this incarceration is going to mean for my children. I do know that we will not see the true ramifications of the sentence that has impacted their lives for years to come. It will impact their choices they make everyday with them and they choose the date, the pads they choose to take the pads they choose to take the paths they choose to take. Many of the women i met are deserving of a Second Chance. They deserve a Second Chance to be able to have their own success story. It is in your hands to make these decisions. I encourage you to please allow them their own Second Chance. Thank you. Thank you very much. Ranking member radcliffe and members of the committee, i appreciate you inviting me here today. In my by mark, i recount the 13 my memoir, i recount the 13 months i spent in the federal prison system. I was also incarcerated for a firsttime drug offense. I am grateful to add my voice with other return citizens who are here with us today to call for changes to the u. S. Criminal Justice System our experiences are essential to understanding the reform that is needed in the system so that it will both provide for Public Safety but in a way that is legal, humane, and sensible that is what i am here today. Incarceration rates are not driven by crime rates. They are driven by policy decisions. For decades, women and girls have been the Fastest Growing part of the prison population in the United States. Is this because of an unprecedented crime wave perpetrated by american women . No. The 700 increase in female incarceration has been driven by government policy. Bad policy decisions like the 1994 federal crime bill, which resulted in inflated incarceration rates at the federal and state levels. One of the most clearcut examples of the failed policies of mass incarceration is the increased imprisonment of women and girls and what happens to them and their families like cindys like sandys. Imposed an sentences heavy cost to the american public, both socially and economically. Almost all women may prison and jail among all women in prison and jail, it is estimated that between 80 and 90 have themselves been victims of violence were serious trauma prior to their incarceration. Because our Law Enforcement system does not target or treat all americans equally, the data shows women of color are overrepresented in the criminal Justice System even though they are not more likely than white women to commit crimes. None of the reasons my memoir caught the public imagination is it is so unusual for a middleclass white woman to be policed, to be prosecuted, and to be punished with prison. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for women of color. American prisons and jails are built by and for men. They are governed by procedures that are developed for mail prisoners. American prisons and jails are punitive. They rarely rehabilitate or restore the people we send their. Almost all of whom will return to the community. I was incarcerated in a womens prison. I now teach in a mens medium security prison. I can assure you there is no institution or hierarchical, dominance oriented, patriarchal, and operating constantly on the threat and promise of violence. This is not an accident. It is by design. The failure of punitive policy is reflected in our high recidivism rates. For most incarcerated women regardless of background, prison sentence does not only punish them. That is because most mothers in prison have kids under the age of 18. Most incarcerated mothers are the single heads of household. And we lock them up, the effect on the families is seismic. On all measures from stable housing, being well fed to doing well in stu in school, parental incarceration surgically harms children. We do not have to do things this way. Before i conclude, i would to draw your attention to two policies that could help to fix some of the mistakes of the last four decades. One is a program in new york called just as home. Just as home. As part of the programs in cooperation with judges and prosecutors, women who are facing prison or jail for a felony are given a chance to remain at home with their families, to be held accountable in the community, and to get the help and support they need to do better. That is what happens. 88 of just as home graduates justice home graduates remain free. It also realizes massive fiscal savings. Taxpayers tost of incarcerate a woman in new york if he has two children is over 130,000 a year. It costs less than 20,000 a year to support a woman to a bitter future to a better future. Looking to the states for innovation, we see two new primary caretaker legislations adopted in massachusetts and tennessee. These measures require judges in those states to consider Family Impact when they are sentencing a person who is a primary caregiver of minor children and to impose Accountability Measures that are appropriate for the offense that will not harm those children. It is worth pointing out that massachusetts and tennessee have very different political landscape. Everybody can see the value of this kind of reform regardless of their political party. Primary caretaker policies should be adopted within the federal system so that federal judges are required to make the same considerations at sentencing. I look forward to todays important testimony on women and girls pathways into prison, the harsh conditions we must survive, and the steps that are necessary for safe and except for return to the committee. But, i employ the members of this committee and all officials to prioritize policy changes that will reduce the number of women and girls ever going into a correctional facility. Those of the changes that will make us a repaired thank you. Is your microphone on . Says talk. Thank you members of the subcommittee for providing me the opportunity to share some data on womens incarceration. Not only is this an issue that has been overlooked for far too long but also because the experiences in the criminal Justice System for women serve to highlight the fault of the entire system. The u. S. Incarcerates women at the highest rate in the world so theres a lot of data to dig through. But as i outline the basics, i would like to keep one fact in mind. One in four women that have been incarcerated have not been convicted. That figure alone demonstrates the use incarceration far too much. 1970s, the womens states prison populations have grown faster than their male counterparts and there are ten times as many women in state prisons now as 40 years ago and despite the dramatic growth the incarceration remains an afterthought and in most states they havent benefited from the efforts to decrease incarceration as much as men. There are many complex and interconnected reasons why the incarcerating women at ever increasing rates. Here are a couple of examples. States still continue to widen the net of the criminal justice involvement by criminalizing womens responses to genderbased abuse discrimination. We have heard about the drug conspiracy laws that lead to the peripheral roles receiving harsh sentences even more than those in charge of the operations but in terms of gender abuse, you have a policy change that led to the mandatory dual arrest just simply for fighting back against Domestic Violence of what is and once caught in the net, it is harder to get out. In miami for examples as a boot camp allows to participate in the sixmonth program instead of having to serve a lengthy sentence but no similar programs available in the state for women. They face years of incarceration for firsttime offenses while their male counterparts can quickly return to the community. Once women are incarcerated, they face more and harsher disciplinary sanctions for similar behaviors when compared to men in this disciplinary action harms their ability to earn time off their sentence and decreases chances of parole. But the tentacles of mass incarceration has a long reach. Women incarcerated in jails and prisons account for just a small percentage of women under some form of actual control of a deprivation account for the majority of women of the congressional of actual control into the incarceration of compliance with probation terms. Fors particularly difficult women and sets us up for failure. For example, probation comes with mandatory monthly fees which women are in the worst position to afford and failing to pay these alone is often a violation of probation. Childcare duties further complicate compliance because probation requirements include travel to mandatory meetings or having to get advanced permission for Emergency School pickups or permission for emergency doctors. Ongoing struggles with Mental Health and Substance Abuse disorders, which affect women needs to ben men, i looked at rather than a failure of probation. Even if incarceration rights drop, the incarceration continues to grow and getting hard data is the next step for policy change. You would think that knowing how many women are locked up and where and why would be easy populationis a counted multiple times a day, but there is an astounding lack of data on incarceration. I set out to give a picture of in mys mass incarceration chart, womens incarceration, the whole pie. Time ample, the last published comprehensive report 1999. Women, it was 20 years ago. Since then, data on incarcerated women has been available piecemeal and scattered. Even worse, have stopped collecting data on womens incarceration. Much less publishing it. When the statistical agencies are blindfolded, policymakers are, too. Having accurate timely data is an important part of sending mass incarceration, but quite frankly there is such room for improvement in so many areas that we cant wait for the data cant wait for the data today. Thank you. Good morning. I work with the independent womens forum and we are an independent organization committed to increasing the earth who value the free markets and liberty. We focus on policies that enhance peoples freedoms and choices and opportunities. My work specifically focuses on women. The subject is something thats really important to us. This is truly a great time for women. We know that we have record low unemployment rates. Over 1800s this is were started by women each day from 2017 to 2018. The firms owned by women of color have triple digit growth over the past decade. Yet, a criminal background blocks too many women out of opportunity and economic mobility. Work is second critical work is a critical component to the transition to the criminal Justice System back into society. So im encouraged by the historic and bipartisan first steps act passed and signed into law last year. It laid a foundation, but we know there is more to do for women. Conversations like todays or minus the left and right are committed to helping every american achieve the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Organizations across the philosophical spectrum are engaged in criminal justice efforts and for different reasons. We can all agree that committing a crime and paying her debt to exclude aould not woman from the pursuit of a better future. It is not just her future, but the future of her children, her family, her community, that depend on the Successful Transition back into society it society. Better policies in the criminal Justice System. Youve heard the statistics are staggering. But what is interesting is we saw the replacement of the judicial discretion with onesizefitsall sentencing mandates when they need a lot of low level nonviolent offenders in federal prison for longer periods of time and otherwise they might have been given. That not only impacted women and their families, but as a result, you have more women likely to serve as a primary caregiver and have plans to return after their release. We know children whose parents are involved in the Justice System based host of challenges and difficulties. Incarceration also forces the families deeper into poverty and debt and the burdens are on the family members, society, and us as taxpayers. The family bond, especially with their children, often becomes a motivating factor for the women not to return to crime. So effective criminal justice requires respect for the dignity of all people into the successful means towards rehabilitation. While serving time, women face special challenges. Some of the panelists have talked about this. From General Health and wellness to ongoing gynecological care and prenatal care if they are pregnant, they required separate facilities for showering and using the toilets. Serving a criminal sentence should not mean that female dehumanizing,as unsanitary, or unsafe conditions. Some level of privacy is a reasonable expectation from male guards, and can protect female prisoners many of whom have experienced Sexual Violence. Incarcerated pregnant women are the most vulnerable. Unfortunately, the Justice System considers the special needs of the population. Thankfully, the shackling of women is a practice that has been ended by law because of the risk it poses to moms and babies. Aand now as a mother of sevenmonthold baby boy, this is especially close to my heart. Ongoing Mental Health care should not be forgotten, and when it is time for a woman to return after being released from prison, it is not the time for her to think of what she will do afterwards. Recidivism rates for women are troubling to those of men, about one quarter released from prison have an arrest for being arrested for the crime within six months. One third in a year and a two thirds five years out. Training, technological opportunities including those tied to the Faith Community can be assets in the rehabilitation process. There is evidence the programs work. The first steps act encourage significant incentives to inmates to participate in the recidivism reduction programs, and a Strong Economy is an ally in providing women opportunities , but where government puts up roadblocks to opportunities, the government needs to remove them. We have seen occupational licenses have been a tremendous hindrance for women who simply want to work. That is a place where we can start and we are seeing states take action there. The criminal Justice System is an area where we all believe that smart reform can help women who want to be productive members of society. I look forward to todays discussion. Thank you. I want to thank all of the witnesses for your testimony today, and we will now proceed with the fiveminute rule of questions. I will begin by recognizing myself for five minutes. Miss shank, i did not understand why you were indicted. Indictedthat you were it sounded like years after your partner, who abused you, passed away. Could you please go through the sequence again and explain why you were indicted . Absolutely. It tends to be confusing sometimes. The person that i was dating was murdered in 12,002. In two thousand two. I was initially charged with conspiracy and i received a letter from my attorney three months after the initial charge dating that it was dismissed. And your conspiracy was . Drugrelated conspiracy. So you conspired to sell the drugs even though you are locked in the house against your will . So, lived in the home, and like i said, i had gotten married, had children, and in 2007, they knocked on my door with an indictment and charged me with conspiracy, but not only did i get conspiracy, but i also received four felonies. I was charged with possession with intent to distribute cocaine, crack, and marijuana, along with conspiracy charges and gun enhancement based on the fact i lived in the home. So you were indicted five years after the drug dealer died and five years after you originally arrested . Correct. That is crazy. After you were released, i wanted to know what happened with their children. Who took care of your children while you were incarcerated . Their father. The father took care of your children. After you got out, did you get custody . Absolutely. Three weeks after i got out, i went down with their dad and i have joint custody of my daughters now. He is a wonderful man and father. He has never kept the children from me. He has been very helpful in keeping my relationship with him. How much time to do so . Nine years. How old are your children today . Is 13, annalise is 11, and the youngest is seven. The youngest is nine. Were you able to stay in touch with them . Tont you say you were close them for a while but then you are transferred . Yes, initially i was in illinois and able to see them my first three years for about every six weeks, so i was able to maintain some type of connection with them being so small, but i was transferred with 40 other women to florida. Did anybody take into consideration the fact that you would not be able to be in touch with their family . There was no consideration for anybody. 240 women were scattered all across the country. Deacon was the closest woman for all of the women there, so women ended up in california, texas. Im sorry to interrupt you. Im concerned about my time but one thing that is said about women incarcerated different than men is that women do not receive visits. Women visit men in prison but men dont visit women in prison. I wanted to know, was that your experience . Is that what you saw when you are in prison or is that not accurate . Absolutely. I mean, you would get visits, and they would be very sparse as far as people there visiting their family. Get a lot of grandmothers bringing kids. Women often did you see whose children were in foster care while they were in . Often. I would talk to a lot of women. I was there for nine years and i spoke with many over the years that would lose their custody of their children. Would parental rights be areinated if you incarcerated too long . Yes. Did you see women get visits, did you know women whose children were in foster care . Thank you, chairwoman bass. I feel like the relationship with children is the single most important factor of incarceration of women. I was not a mother when i was incarcerated. I am now. I think about that all the time when i was about it locked up. I was lucky. I serve time in connecticut and a resident of new york city. For many people, it was easy to visit me. Since then, facility in danbury has been repurposed and a huge percentage of women have been transferred far away from their families. What would happen is we would see women, you know, my bunkmates never received a visit the entire time we bunked together. She had two children, but then there were certain families fortunate enough to be in the visiting room with some frequency. I was wondering if anybody could comment on women who they saw who became pregnant while they were incarcerated. There was a woman in florida who became pregnant by an officer while i was incarcerated, and that is something that does not get talked about often enough, about the safety of women with officers who were there. Thank you. Mr. Radcliffe . Thank you, chair. You highlighted in your testimony the importance of dignity for women in prison. I agree with you. This certainly should not be a partisan issue. We should all be willing to address in the spirit of bipartisanship. I think we can, that indeed the women and girls in the criminal Justice System. Some of those issues were addressed in the first step act, which President Trump signed into law late last year, but you also mentioned that there are still areas for more to be done at the federal level to provide dignity for women inmates, so can you elaborate on those additional areas for improvement . I am interested if you know any states that have taken action and those specific areas and i would like to get the perspective of this shank and your carmen experiences. The comments of ms. Cynthia shank touches on one of those. The male prison guard area. It is reasonable for women to have some expectation of privacy, especially when they are changing, dressing and showering. You know that female prisoners are vulnerable and a lot of them have experienced Sexual Violence in the past. You have a situation were perhaps a male correctional officer enters into a females cell, she may protest and say, can i have privacy . A verbal altercation could ensue. This could be triggering for that woman behind bars and it could lead to a place where she does not want to go, and you do not want to have her see it. I think the american there are a couple of conservative organizations and progressive organizations that have come together to talk about why during incarceration, it is reasonable that a male guard should not be present when they are strip source stripsearched and they should not be in areas where they supervise them in showers and the idea of inappropriate inspections. I think these are counterproductive to rehabilitating a woman behind bars. I think there is an area of understanding what happens when male guards are present and what are potential guidelines that should be put in place between men and women in sensitive areas. We understand there are other places where it makes sense for that to happen. Another area i think is concerning for pregnant women, we didnt talk about the shackling of women being ended, but i think the continued care for women who have had a baby afterwards is important. Found that research correctional facilities can fail to provide physician recommended standards of care for pregnant women, and that places Womens Health and the health of the child at risk. Even after a woman has had a baby, i know very women who have had children understand there is an emotional toll that is taken. When you are denied medical care or you dont have adequate Mental Healtheven care postpartum, i think those are areas where you both need guidance from nutritionists and on theogical experts care needed and how federal prisons can provide that. In terms of states, i would have to do a deeper dive. I do know states like louisiana and conservative states have implemented some of these at the state level. Great placether that has implemented changes, so i am happy to provide Additional Research at another time. Thank you. Add, anyyou want to perspective on those issues of dignity for women and areas we can focus on here . Absolutely. And the female situation is something i dont speak often, primarily because my children are in the room when i speak, but it is very prevalent, the guard and inmate relationships that happen in prison, and i never felt safe changing. Guards know your routines. They know what they want to single you out, they will. An officer toor single somebody out. When you say guard to prisoner relationships, are these consensual or are you describing rape . When you put into perspective somebody who was in charge of you, they are consensual to the extent where you ask the inmates where yes, the inmates are there, but they are also vulnerable. These are other caregivers over them, so while they are consensual relationships that im aware of, to me, there is a level of not power. Power. Absolutely. They wield that power. I never had a relationship with an officer, but officers when i showered, and they would enter my room when i was getting dressed frequently. It happened that every prison i was at. I was at three different races, and this is just my story. You could talk to anyone of those women, and they will tell you it was common to know that this officer was in a relationship with that inmate or it was just something that happened all the time. Thank you. Thank you. Custody, you observed other women who are pregnant, i assume. You observed women who gave birth while incarcerated, and can you describe what you observed . Thank you, mr. Nadler. I will never forget the first day in prison for a variety of reasons, but one of the things i remember so clearly after being processed by correctional aficer and transformed into prison inmate, it was february, i was being escorted to the unit where i would live, the unit that would house me, and a group of women were outside the building and there was a woman who was visibly pregnant. I learned she was eight months pregnant. I remember being so confused when i saw her. I was literally like, this must be a mistake. It never occurred to me that there would be pregnant women in prison, and i am still deeply confused by that. I am deeply troubled by the fact that so many women enter prison, and of course they have gone through the judicial process prior to incarceration, and that our choice as a society is to force them to go through their pregnancy and childbirth while under custody in a setting as pointed out that is not appropriate for pregnant people. That particular young woman that i saw went into labor shortly. Here after she went into labor and she was the first person i had ever seen in labor. She labored for about 12 hours , occasionally checked on by staff but largely assisted i the other women. In Hospital Unit . Finally after 12 hours, they took her to the local hospital, which is where she gave birth, and she was immediately returned to the prison postpartum in recovery from having given birth, but also incredibly drawn, sad, devastated because she had been separated from her infant, and in all of the biology we know, it tells as that babies and mothers need to be together for months, for years, really. But certainly, that young lady who was serving an 18 month sentence for a low level drug offense could have stayed in the community to give birth. She was from rural maine, and was very lucky that her family was able to take the baby, and it was very lucky that they were occasionally able to make the 8 hour drive down for her to see the baby, and she was lucky she was going home soon because not everyone is that fortunate. Most important thing from my point of view that we pregnancy, reproductive rights and freedom, and motherhood when we think about women in the criminal Justice System. Guess, the video clip from oranges and you back shows this heartwrenching moment. This depicts the return of a prisoner immediately after giving birth. [video clip] [indiscernible chatter] him. Got [speaking spanish] and how long after giving birth she returned to the prison . The next day. She had a regular, uncomplicated birth, so as soon as she was medically discharged from the hospital, she was brought to prison. Let me ask him a few seconds , i believe that individual laws can be harmful to our society. Can you tell me about any particular reforms that you will think will address issues specific to women . That is a good question. Giving alternatives to sentencing . Alternatives to mandatory sentencing. I think we need to give discretion back to the judges. They need to be able to do their job. I think if they are allowed if we take away mandatory minimum sentencing, it allows them to sentence people on individual basis and i think that will be more productive. I dont think we would have such an overload in prison, just kind of cut and dry, saying, ok, this is the category you fall in, you go this way, go left, go right. I think it needs to be individual. I think you need to base everybodys story different. Circumstances are different and i think the judge needs to be able to make that decision. Thank you. My time is expired. Thank you, madam chair. You had mentioned in your testimony programs connected to the Faith Community. Could you expand upon that one have been your interactions or your experience relative to faithbased programs in prisons, womens prisons or men for that matter . Sure, thank you. I think a critical aspect of rehabilitation for many people behind bars has been faith, and the ability for those people to be connected to justice and restoration, you know, a personal sense of their faith and guiding believe. You have seen successful programs that are faithbased that have been helpful in achieving that. Im just looking through my notes here. So prison programs that i have , the firstffective one that comes to mind wait a second, these are out of order. Generally, you see prisoners who participate in job Training Programs are less likely to recidivate and they are more likely to avoid it reincarceration. And the prison entrepreneurship program, i believe it is a texasbased, has been a tremendous example of faithbased but also private Organization Going in there and providing visitors with the skills they need, particularly around entrepreneurship. I like onto printer ship because it is an area where individuals with the criminal record can start their own shop, hang their own shingle. Women newd 1821 businesses were started every day in 2017 to 2018 because people are able to start those businesses that they want to do. Pep is a great example of a program that works on the state level and can be scaled nationally. When it comes to other faithbased programs that reduce recidivism, i think there are other programs out there, prison fellowship is a great one, a National Christian nonprofit serving prisoners, launched in texas. It is one of those places that has been a great launching pad for these programs and ill give you statistics to their success. According to a study by the texas policy council, 8 of participants returned to prison within two years who completed the program that they provided compared to 20 of offenders who were eligible for the program that elected not to produce a paid. I think those are two examples of good programs, entrepreneurship related, that could be helpful. Thank you very much. The next question i will ask any Panel Members who would like to comment until i run out of time. Most prisoners, men or women, are going to get out someday, have some form of homicide, often times will get out. At the federal level, we have prison industries. I used to work with the city of cincinnati when i was county commissioner on programs that encouraged people to work. We had twoforone programs where every day you did something on a work crew and you would get two days off your sentence. Skillve to trying to get that when a person gets out that they could put actually into use, also making your time in prison perhaps pass more quickly, if that is possible, do of have any examples programs that you think may have worked where you are at . Or that does not work . Things that is very rarely offered in the federal system or any kind of programs whatsoever. There is the lack of programs that we should be talking about. Each place that i was at, there was a Computer Program and i was able to do that. That was the only program i was able to do, and in coleman, florida, i did get my cdl. Have i driven a big rig since . No. That is something more oriented towards men. There is a lack of programs, and any programming you do, there is a list you have to get to be able to get into this class. For me, having a 15 year sentence, every class i applied for, anybody who comes in after me in the door, if they have a shorter sentence, they get ahead of me on the list. Guess how many programs i was able to do . Hardly any because i would be moved back down the list because someone with two years and about to get out would be able to do the reentry programs, whether any kind of programs, there is not enough in the system. She is correct. The federal Bureau Prisons is particularly egregious in terms of very limited rehabilitative programming or sort of programming. She draws a good comparison or point that many of the limited programs available are completely designed for men. Onwuka points out a Wonderful Program in texas, the pep program. It is only available to men. There is another Program Based out of north carolina, which does work with women, both incarcerated and women who have returned to the community. It should be known that in our state of ohio at the ohio reformatory for women, which is a state facility, there is a tremendous program called tapestry, offered for 25 years, which is a Recovery Program for women with Substance Abuse disorder, and it is remarkably successful and operates a network of graduates. 800 women who will return to the community. Of Course Online thank you for holding this hearing and to the ranking member. It is clear that as we look at this set of facts, emotion, passion, there is much work to do to build on what we have done in this community, Prison Reform, sentencing reduction, much work as it relates to women. This testimony has given us sort of the launching pad to be able to do so. We hope to introduce soon the end of racial profiling, which overlaps some of the reasons why women of color, and i know that the idea of conspiracy on drugs is something that occurs with or the and the woman conspiracy charge. We see that all the time. We have to address that, and i look forward to looking at those issues. Let me quickly say that one of my constituents, dr. Rowe, was not incarcerated, but wearing a jumper coming from jamaica, and was forced to put a blanket on to get on an airplane from the caribbean, which is where people come from for fun and play. We know it permeates through lgbtq and others, so we look forward to doing that legislation. To focuss i i want on this question. My time is short, can you give a quick reason why you believe or why you see that happening . Thank you for your work. I think it is important for this subcommittee to focus on the fact, and i think through our testimony, he talked about it but i want to say it out loud that some of the major reasons why women are ending up incarcerated is because they are traumatized, and they have experienced trauma, whether physical abuse, sexual abuse, witnessing violence in their communities, as well as they are caught in a cycle of poverty. Until we address those concerns, until we have real gender responsive programming that addresses the trauma that women have experienced, and men, but today we are talking about women, we are kind of spinning our wheels at this. Think people of color are caught up in those elements, as well as angling in others . Absolutely. I just wanted to get that basic understanding. Thank you. I have legislation moving through congress. It is stuck in the United States senate, unfortunately, but it deals with the birth of babies while incarcerated. You have given me, as they say, the launch to add the children aspects, it is to allow the mother to keep the baby, and in some instances, they are incarcerated and allowed to keep the baby while in a separate area and to nurture that child for six months. There are also options in the community, low offenses. We want to look at that, but one to to comment on how powerful it would be if that scene, where the woman would be coming back with her baby to a certain safe lace, clean, orderly, baby nursery type, those mothers could stay while incarcerated . I could barely watch that scene because it was very real. I had to turn away because it made me cry. It would mean everything if a mother could stay with her child. I do not know that coming back to a nursery type situation without your child is going to do any good. Right, so that is what im saying but you have to come with the baby. You have to be able to be with the baby. That has to be able to happen. That is necessary, not only for the mothers sanity and wellbeing, but the child, as well. I am an adult. I accepted the consequences of my sentencing, that my children were the innocent victims in this, and that is who we have to focus on. Inn when i put my daughters therapy, they had to go to greece counseling. That was the therapy they went to. May i add that with your testimony, we should now look at that piece that helps mothers be together with their children . Frequent visits, we are thinking of how we actually do that. Frequent visits, and also the type of visit. If you could allow more of a playtype situation instead of your children sitting in a chair and not being able to get up or something other than playing on a cement slab, with no toys really, a very limited things you are playing with, i created costumes with my children out of toilet paper when they visited me for halloween. A mother will do anything they can to make their child happy, but if the resources are limited, you just have to be able to offer them something to bring that child some form of happiness in connection with that child. That should be a part of it should be a part of visit. It should be part of rehabilitation, strengthening family bonds to keep them together. Thank you so very much. To thank you,t madam chair. This has been a very interesting committee, so thank you free doing the hearing and one to say to ms. Shank, thank you for sharing your story. I am glad that after what . Nine years, you got clemency and youre getting your life back together. And all of you, thank you for sharing your stories. And ime a question, not sure who to ask of it, but i am from arizona, and we worked on sentencing reform in arizona. I think this is a bipartisan issue, quite frankly, both conservative groups and nonconservative groups i dont know if you call it liberal or whatever agree on this issue that there is a problem, but when we tried to do prosecutorsona, the , and i pushed back saying, no, this is not firsttime drug offenders that are in the arizona prisons, at least, and the prisons actually showed us the statistics of who was in the and you basically had to be a drug dealer, not just a drug user, at least in arizona, or it had to be a Violent Crime. Aguess to mccurdy, is this case also in federal prison . Do you have firsttime drug offenders . Who is in the prison . Not only do you have a number of first time, particularly with women, a drug offenders, and in the federal system, you are charged with intent to distribute, trafficking, but as we have talked about what often women fall victim to is the conspiracy laws. You do not have to necessarily have dealt drugs. You have to have some role in the conspiracy, and that role is very liberal, as you have heard cindy talk about. You could live with their partner or pick up the phone in your house that you live in with your partner, and that is enough to implicate you and conspiracy. You could take money to the bank that your partner gave you. Again, you are not involved in the trade itself, but you have these peripheral roles, and that is enough to get you involved in the conspiracy, and the problem on the federal level is that the focus is not on your role. The focus is on the weight of the drugs. Andhe conspiracy is large the weight of the drugs is a large, and you dont have information to trade with the prosecutor to cooperate, you cannot get your sentence reduced the end mandatory minimum, and often times, women, because they are not involved in the trades, they end up taking the entire weight of the drug trade, which in some instances gets them life without parole sentencing. That is very interesting. The other thing that was brought up by one of the witnesses was about childcare. If you do get out and you are on probation, you have to go to mandatory meetings. I know in arizona, we offer free or reduced childcare to low income working women. There is usually a waiting list because, you know, there is a certain amount of funds that exist. Is this something that i would assume would help in that situation . Beould imagine it would difficult, especially as a single parent. That is definitely a step in the right direction, but one of the other problems on probation theou are restricted to hours you are allowed to leave the house, for example, so if you have to do an emergency pick up with your kid, you cannot often times reach your probation officer in time or the same thing for Emergency Hospital visits. You are torn between your care giving duties, and knowing that you are going to get sent back to prison if you take your kid to the emergency room. Thank you. I only have 32 seconds left and so many questions, so maybe i will follow up with all of you, but the one thing that we did in our state, too, is we reformed our occupational licensing because i would imagine if you have a criminal history, it might be difficult to get a regular job, so i would assume a lot of women could be selfemployed. What are your thoughts on that . I dont know how to pronounce wuka . Name, miss on if there is anng occupational license, which is a slip from the government that could be anything from hair braiding to being a florist. There are lots of certifications and hurdles that can be costly, particularly if you are low income, you are taking care of children, and a lot of those certifications have nothing to health ory sort of actual trade. It is just a way to live in competition. Arizona is a great state in reforming, and i would encourage other states to look at those industries, where women are trying to get into those entrylevel locations, and they can become a primary source. Madam chair, i know my time is up, but i wanted to share with the members that in our arizona prisons we have correctional industries, and very put women to work. If you call a call center, you might be talking to a woman prisoner in arizona because they are actually contracted out, and they are doing Call Center Work for different companies, so it is a good way for people to get trained, and i support that. I would like to work with you and other members. I think there are pieces of this that we can work on on a bipartisan basis, as long as we dont put in poison pills and that kind of thing, i think we can work on it together. Thank you. Representative demings . You, madam chair, and thank you, ranking member, both of you, for your opening imments this morning that think so adequately set the stage for todays hearing and thank you to each of you. I served as a Law Enforcement officer for a lot of years, and our mission was to protect victims, but our purpose was never to create more victims, and i think that it is so important that we understand the individual circumstances and victimization and other characteristics that women who are incarcerated face, like being victims of Domestic Violence, Substance Abuse, Mental Illness, being poor, or low income, all of those are challenges, and if we are going to improve how we do business, we have got to factor those things in. 80 of the women who are incarcerated our parents. Shank, you are correct, i was a daddys girl. I loved my father, but you cannot even put into words what it means to be with your mother. And the special role that a woman or other plays in every household, so thank you, so much for being here today and helping us, and then, we have not even talked much about once you are released and coming back into society and the challenges of that. You,ld like to start with miss shank. I know you talked about the separation from your husband, but eventually, you are able to remarry and that is great, but could you talk about once you are released, some of the challenges you faced coming back into society . Yet, we did not reconcile. We are divorced but we have a great relationship. We are coparenting our daughters together. One you are released, and of the challenges that i faced outi did get a job 29 days just received i my sixth promotion last week. Congratulations. Thank you. That is determination and having a lot just received my sixth promotion last of catca mother. My Halfway House was 1. 5 hour away drive from my hometown. They would have me come three times to four times a week between the hours of 8 00 and 3 00, which are my work hours, to come in for whatever they wanted me to come in for, just check, checking in, meetings, drops, whatever random thing they wanted, and if i did not, that was a violation of my probation, and if i lose my job, of course im a felon, and they are looking at me like, i could add easily lost my job, but that is a violation of my probation. It made things difficult. Vehicle andi had a i asked, what if you do not have a car, and she said, you would take the bus. But they expected to keep you to follow all these rules, which i understand, but they make things very difficult. That was very challenging for me early on. Luckily, i am off of that confinement and probation. Actually, i am still on probation for five years, but i do not have to do my check ins anymore. Thank you very much. Miss kerman, do you have anything to add . Also, you talked about this is about policy, incarceration of women is more about policy and not crime. Could you elaborate a little bit on that, please . Day of i woke up on the my release in a federal jail facility in chicago, not the prison facility in danbury. No one in the facility would confirm i was going to be released, but i was quite alert. I watched Martha Stewart get released from federal prison the same day on the news. Finally, hours later, a correctional officer said, pack out, kerman. They took me to disbursement and they said, we dont have any womens close, here is the smallest set of mens clothing. They gave me a windbreaker. It was chicago in the winter. They said, here is 28, a gratuity. I was like, thank you. They took me to an alleyway door and they were like, see ya. I was very lucky because my fiance was waiting at the front door to take me home to new york, which was 800 miles away. Mythat had not been true, entire life might have been almost surely would have been completely different because i housing. And stable i was able to start work week after my release from prison. I cannot overstate how important that work piece is. I was treated very differently probation office. Both of us were in the federal system. You know, i have course was subject to drug testing, check on check ins, but they did not treat you with the heavy hand like they did with cindy, and i think we have to look hard at what drives disparity in this system. It is race, class great it is unacceptable and illegal. That brings me back to your question about policy and the fact that criminology experts all over the country will point is policyct that it decisions that drive incarceration. Our incarceration rise in this country is not matched to crime rates. We began to incarcerate people at a very high rate as crime rates were actually beginning to decline, and crime rates continue to go up, up, and up, even as we now enjoy historically low crime rates, like some of the lowest ever recorded. Thank you. My five minutes or six goes very quickly. Thank you, madam chair. Representative klein . Thank you, madam chair. I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I want to talk about the need for bail reform. Inpite overall decreases , and has increased to 31 to make up two thirds of the overall jail population and over 60 of women incarcerated have not been convicted of a crime and are held in custody pretrial. This has a unique impact because of two thirds of the women who could not meet bail conditions, two thirds were mothers of minor children. So at the time of the survey that im quoting, over 150 thousand children had a parent in jail because they cannot afford their jail bond. That means children are impacted by pretrial detention and startling numbers and it is often caused pretrial incarceration on mothers. We need to take steps to address this problem. As a former prosecutor, when you are presented with the potential bond situation in court, you have certain factors in virginia to consider, whether the defendant is a flight risk, whether they are a risk to the community if released, and the severity of the offense to which they have been charged is also something to consider. There are also the issues about secured bond versus an unsecured bond, and then in virginia, we have Pretrial Services that can be administered, not in lieu of bond, but often they are a great process to in the avoid having to keep someone let me askd, so anyone who would like to comment on that, what steps can we take to help address this problem . Well, i think part of the reason so some of these problems are systemic. Some of the impact that these and bail bonds, and economic sanctions of the criminal Justice System have on women are greater than men, just because women do not tend to make as much money as men, and then dissipates Hispanic Women even more so than white women. In addition, getting rid of money based bonds, i get that. Lets go a little deeper. Secure versus unsecured, pretrial versus bond. Can you speak to those specifics as to whether one might be more advantageous than another when it comes to reducing the impact on children in these situations . About the wayre those distinctions would make a difference. Maybe someone else could speak to that . Anybody else. I received bail and was able to pay my bail with the help of my family, and that literally made all the difference in my life. We know data shows people who are able to afford bail get Better Outcomes and their cases, for a variety of reasons, but including the reasons they are not desperate to plead guilty and take pleased they should not take, which 95 of all criminal defendants take a plea. In a observe from my time federal jail that women there who were on pretrial status were desperate. They were desperate about what was going on with their families. They were desperately uncertain about what was going to happen to their own lives. There was a woman who had been incarcerated for two years there. What about home monitoring . Ld that enable mayville could that enable maybe . My six years on pretrial, i reported on probation in new york city. You were six years on pretrial . I spent nine years on correctional control and only one incarcerated, so six years of pretrial and i went through officers,pervising but it was a pretty straightforward process. I turned up once a month. I was tested for drugs. I recorded all the same things required on probation basically. I was not a mother, so i think that a mother is even less of a flight risk, or we have a greater consideration as a society to make sure mother is able to be in the community. Certainly, the federal system is set up to do something other than rely on bail or pretrial incarceration in the outcome of sentences. I must reflect on the fact that you are a former prosecutor and the responsibility of this lies in the prosecution prosecutorial function with supervision. Women are a great example of the best possible candidates for pretrial treatment that does not involve incarceration. I yield back. Representative mcbeth . Thank you, madam chair, and thank you to each of you for your here today to share expertise and personal experience. It is critical we hear from you. I represent georgia sixth congressional district. Georgia took on the challenge of criminal Justice Reform, and under the leadership of governor nathan deal, a republican, georgia has enacted bipartisan orms reducing recidivism easy for me to say recidivism and saving georgia taxpayers billions. Unfortunately, these reforms may not do enough to affect the outcomes of women. Women are the Fastest Growing population and georges Justice System, sadly, and i know we have to do more to make sure that women are more than an afterthought as we work to improve our criminal Justice System. Miss mccurdy, specialized courts like drugurses, courses and Mental Health courses have been a major pillar of georges efforts and help to reduce the incarceration of nonviolent individuals. How can we work to ensure that specialized courts are serving the needs of women . So specialized courts are definitely one answer to some of the problems in the system, but the thing that one to caution us about with specialized courts is often times people are required to plead guilty before they get access to a specialized or Mental Health court, and particularly with drug courts, when you are dealing with people who have Substance Abuse problems and because of their problems can follow the wagon, and ultimately, have already pled guilty, we have to really be careful about the way we use our drug courts so that we are not funneling people in the system or basically creating a system where they will ultimately fail because they cannot adhere to the conditions of drug court. My recommendation is that, particularly for drug courts, we not require people to plead guilty at the time they enter and that they are able to at least try to get through the diversion aspect of the drug plea before ultimately a of their actual charge. Would you say the percentages of women who actually have to plead guilty has gone up within recent years . Yes. Thank you for that. Please forgive me if i pronounce mispronouncing a purdue have anything to add . Mispronounce your name. Do you have anything to add . The effect cannot be understated. Mistake then leads somebody mainstreamhe kind of courts with a guilty plea, whether or not they were in fact guilty because oftentimes like other plea like other plea bargains, if you are facing a very high sentence possibility, you are coerced into playing just to get out of jail. There are rehabilitative programs in georgia and programs that improve peoples employment and prospects upon their release. These investments and people save money by keeping people from committing crimes again. Face intacles do women these programs . Yousure lots of obstacles have to overcome. Particular in the federal system, one of the obstacles to even participate in the programs and bureau of prisons is there an there is not enough programming. Is programs,re staff and women in pro in prison dont know about them. In thes a Trauma Program federal prison system. Facility according to the Inspector General report even offers the report. Not many people knew about it. There is another program which is a program to help mothers stay with their children after they are incarcerated and only 37 of the people in the federal prison participated in it and many did not know about it and were not told about it from the bureau of prisons and there were plenty of slots that were available for women to participate. We have to get the information out. Thank you. , madam chair. I help from florida were spent some time in the state legislature and on the senate side, we attempted to do an incredible amount of criminal Justice Reform before i left and they were still working on it while i been up here. One of the things we never focused on was the female side of Prison Reform and criminal Justice Reform. The focus was what you guys were talking about witches just in general mostly on the male side of the equation so i appreciate all of you being here today to bring this to the forefront. I would love to get your recommendations. You talked about women in prison with you and wanting them to have a Second Chance. Help me understand what that would look like. Or bringd behavior them up for a probation type hearing what in your mind is that Second Chance that we on the federal side could look at doing in circumstances like that . Like right now with the first up act, there is initiative with the programming and that to me is important in allowing women lets get some programs in there and allow them to get the help they need and allow them to and putting in incentives to give them help with time off or maybe there is no parole or anything like that in the federal system. They just need relief, anything we can do to help shorten their sentences whether it be programming for a bill we pass. The weight ofate the calculation and what that means to sentencing. Theeed to allow to give women a chance to breathe and give them a Second Chance. There were women i was incarcerated with who were serving 20 or 30 year sentences. Mey asked for 39 years for and i received my mandatory minimum sentence solicit rid of these mandatory minimum sentence is because that, to me, is very important. Thats what we worked on in floridas to get rid of the mandatory sentencing. You are talking employment type programs in the schism in the present. You talked about the Justice Home Program in new york, its that something you would like to see at the federal level . Do he not have Something Like that at the federal level . There is nothing remotely like it in the federal system. Gives discretion to judges and prosecutors will value indication front of them. Theyare felony cases and may elect to allow the woman to stay in the community and go through Accountability Measures but also get some wraparound help. Everyone is different, some when a new job education, some women need access to Mental Health care. Every cases different but the results are fantastic. It saves the taxpayers money and it saves those families the trauma of being torn apart by incarceration. I have to return to the question of trauma because we know that it lies at the heart of most womens involvement in the criminal Justice System. 8090 of women in the system have been the victims of sexual assault, other physical assault or significant trauma prior to their incarceration. The overlapping instances of Substance Abuse disorder or Mental Health problems are directly related. It people in the Community Get the trauma response that is necessary in a timely fashion, we would see and its true of man but its disproportionately true of women we would see something very different in the criminal Justice System. That experience of trauma cindys history of being a victim of Domestic Abuse should have been considered at sentencing. You previously testified before the Senate Judiciary committee . That is correct. On issues of Prison Reform . And 2015. N 2014 since that time, what progress, if any, has been made in Prison Reform at the federal level . We have seen lots of innovations at the state level but very little progress in the federal government other than the passage of federal legislation recently. I must make a point that both the federal bureau of prisons and, in fact, all correctional systems operate with limited oversight in many cases and limited accountability when in fact problems are found within correctional systems or individual prisons. No prison has ever been closed because it was badly run. My time has expired. Say that ied to would be happy to work on these issues moving forward with the committee. We did a lot of this in florida and i think their testimony is very impactful on the issue so thank you. Representative deutch. Thanks to all the witnesses for being here and thank you for your helpful and powerful testimony. Entitleded an article womens mass incarceration, the in 2018 and a currently captures the state of women and girls in our Justice System. The statistics in there and what , overheard already today 219,000 women and girls incarcerated in the u. S. And we talked about a 700 increase in 19 since 1980. The growth rate outpaces men 60 . They have not and conviction of crime and 80 of the women being held in jail are mothers. In january of this year, the american journal of Public Health released a study of pregnancy and prisons finding that in 22 states, theres a total of that hundreds of thousands of women held in prison but accessibility to adequate medical care is atrocious. Its a devastating impact on women and i would just flag one incident in my own district on the morning of april 10, there was an incident in pompano beach, florida that i represent. I would like to submit for the record letter from the Broward County public defender and the sheriff on the incident. Thank you. Jackson, a 34yearold woman, pregnant woman with Mental Illness complained to jail officers at 3 a. M. That she was experiencing contractions. Jail officials moved her to an empty cell, left her alone for nearly seven hours. After more than four hours, 7 22 a. M. , they spoke with a physician and the physician said he would check on her when he they waited and finally a deputy observed the woman squatting and screaming in pain and heard a baby crying as he approached the cell. When he summons jackson standing with a baby in her arms, he helped wrap the baby with a towel. The nurse described the incident as a pregnant female having a spontaneous delivery. Well, it should not have happened like that obviously. Thats not how anyone should be treated. In america, however shocking, is not an isolated occurrence. If you days earlier of another woman almost gave birth alone in a cell at the same facility. Womant instance, the transported the woman to a hospital when she gave birth. Ask, what kind of data should prisons and jails collect on incarcerated women . That theyit funny characterize it as a spontaneous birth when they had nine months notice. Important we know forfive women enter jail pregnant. 45 of women enter jails pregnant. There point that pregnancy is acknowledged, medical attention should start at that point. Its just as if women were not in jail or prison. They need the continuous medical prenatal that attention that women need on the outside as well. We cannot wait until they get to the point where they are about to give birth to give them prenatal care. We have to do it from the day they enter jail. More importantly, we need to stop putting pregnant women in jail. There are too many alternatives before the last option is to put a pregnant woman in jail. I appreciate that and i agree. Study also points out that there is no federal Agency Responsible for collecting incarceration data and also collect pregnancy data. Let me just confirm that pregnancy data of incarcerated women should be collected by the bureau of justice statistics . Correct. And the lack of pregnancy dated on incarcerated women is an indication that our prison system is not adapted to the increasing number of women and girls in the system. Im concerned that the quality of medical stair medical care for pregnant women can differ dramatically. Should a National Standard be developed on the care they received while incarcerated . Absolutely. Again, the National Standard should start with keeping women out of jail who are pregnant. Thank you all very much. Representative richmond. Thank you, madam chairwoman and thank you for having this hearing. As i hear from the witnesses that a numberars of things i take out of it, one of which is the power and the the amount of abuse that can happen and prosecutors at prosecutorial discretion. For this question committee and policymakers to determine how much power that prosecutors will have. It was a prosecutor that made the decision to come back after five years and charge you with a crime and too often, prosecutors look at people as leverage to go after Something Else or Collateral Damage toward some other fight. I think we need to make sure that we are holding our prosecutors accountable so that if you are rich and affluent, you get different treatment than if you are poor and uneducated. I think that is something that we have to highlight. The other point i heard his programming. Be of the things i find to the climax of foolishness in our correctional system in america is the fact that we encourage people when we lock them up to better themselves. And when they get out, we have barriers to them getting licenses in those very professions we train them in. In many states, you have a catchall phrase to get a license called good moral character. Peoplested money and formally incarcerated people to train them. It make tose does bar them from entering those professions once we invested in the training and do you all agree that that is counterproductive . I would note that everybody seems to say yes. The other thing is the family connection. I wrote an article a long time ago and i was talking about a father that the father may be in jail but the family is doing the time. When a mother is in jail, the family is doing the time. Incarcerateave to people within 500 driving miles of the home. Todayk the conversation is that maybe with women, that number needs to be reduced in half when you think of the inortance and the difficulty the fact that women are less likely to be visited in jail. Wasother thing i heard correctional responses guided by Womens Center research and data and i think that is very important and i want to thank you all for your recommendations. Let me ask you a question, you talked about justice home. Does that also apply for Violent Crimes or nonViolent Crimes . I think that is at the discretion of the prosecutors and judges. I serve on the board of the Womens Prison Association which is one of the Community Agencies that does the ongoing work with participants and we would certainly take anybody regardless of their crime of conviction. Possibility gives a of record expungement depending what the crime is an depending on the persons completion of the program and depending on the discretion of the judge and the prosecutor. I think its a very artificial line often when we make the distinction between crimes we characterize as violent and crimes we characterize as. Onviolent stop anyone intimate with the court system, those terms are not i did criminal defense and im not talking about the nuance between weather is determined as violent, im talking about crimes of violence where there is a physical victim. Let me move on really quickly to something i dont think i heard and that is housing at the end of incarceration is one of the biggest factors and recidivism. The question becomes, all of these artificial barriers to Public Housing to Public Education or assistance once youve been formerly incarcerated, how do we tackle those barriers. The last part of that especially with crack cocaine, if a child in Public Housing was convicted of having crack or drugs then the mother gets evicted from Public Housing. Now with opioids, we do not see prosecutors and housing authoritys push to evict opioid parents. Just a note that we should treat them the same way but how important is housing in this equation, stable housing . Housing is stable not only important for womens return to the community. Its a determining factor in why many women end up in the system in the first place. That might not have a safe place to live, womens lack of safety has a contributor factor to their potential to commit crimes as well. Those many policy barriers to people gaining access to safe and stable housing, we should drop them. Those are not things we have to do, those are things we choose to do. To tear downose each and every barrier to full citizenship that people like me and cindy face. We deserve our citizenship in full. Thank you. Representative jeffries. Thank you for convening this hearing and your tremendous leadership in this area. I want to thank all of our witnesses for their presence here today and the compelling information you are providing. I think you said in your testimony that you believe that the years and miles of separation caused by incarceration are in part designed to break the bond between families, is that right . That is absolutely correct. Being that we00 , were limited to 300 minutes per month on phone calls which we have to pay for ourselves. Daughters and they were fighting over the phone and imagine a child when they hear that, my kids would panic when they would hear that the before the phone will hang up and to cry and tell me not to hang up. Mommy, please dont hang up. , its phone just drops devastating and it happened every single time. Apartet up to keep you and i try to tell you that you are here and we want you to strengthen your family ties and yet they offer nothing. They movie 1000 miles away and i saw my daughters once a year and i had limited phone calls. We would do the best you could and i would write them and try anything i could to get my daughters to remember me. It was very hard and very challenging. You were released from prison i believe in march of 2017 after serving nine years . Thats right. Andased on your experiences i congratulate you on the success you have had, what is it you think we as members of congress should think about in terms of how to both address the trauma that occurs based on the family separation and how to help facilitate the family unit coming together after ones release . Thats a good question because there is nothing in play. I guess it would stem from the time you are separated to help during that time of incarceration, whether its some type of family day that they would offer some of the prisons, maybe encouraging that more. Just the type of visits you have , even being able the visits i had were cold on the environment was very cold. It was not a very comforting environment and i think that plays a big part of that. You ifome home, do there was some kind of just type of Family Therapy that could be offered, i think that is very helpful. You offered it to people for me, im in therapy and my children are as well and is something we had to be proactive about as individuals. I know many people dont have the luxury of that. Would be veryat helpful. In your testimony, made the important observation that so many women are locked out of the ofnomic recovery as a result their criminal background. That obviously has consequences and implications for being able to put the family unit back together and to robustly pursue the American Dream. After incarceration. Theyou offer thoughts as to impact of incarceration and the way forward in terms of how to make sure we are really creating uponbility for people paying their debt to society, to follow the American Dream and succeed economically . Thank you. I spent a lot of time talking about the amount of opportunity available today in this economy and because of the criminal record, you see people walk out. Its interesting as we start to see a shift now because of a type jobs market because its harder to find qualified people to fill positions and we have 7. 1oint million million Unfilled Positions and people have not considered certain position and then includes people who have a criminal record. Its a great opportunity for women and anyone coming out of the correctional system. That doesnt mean everybodys going to do that. At the state level, we have seen the Movement Toward . The box. Thats the idea that employers do not ask whether you have a criminal background. Its a way of giving someone a chance based on the merits of their experience and background before writing them off because they have a criminal record. Andes have implemented it its interesting. Private companies who do it from cocacola to starbucks and google, they have voluntarily started to do that and i think thats a way of opening up opportunity for women, people of color and any and anyone has a criminal background. I hesitate to state to say it should be a federal policy because it can have unintended consequences particular against people of color and particularly against men of color. There is an opportunity there for voluntary private Sector Companies to say im going to look at someones application based on merit. Several people have talked about vocations and we have seen the Trump Administration talk about apprenticeships. Its an idea that i think people one forgotten or written off bluecollar industries. The Trump Administration recently released a new regulatory change that would expand apprenticeship to whitecollar opportunities. I think its an interesting place because there will be people who have a criminal record who dont go to a Fouryear College and dont have a bunch of abcs behind the name but one to get into a vocation that can be a great middleclass lifestyle. My time has expired but thank you very much. Thanknk you, i want to the chairwoman for convening this important hearing and fear extraordinary and longstanding leadership on these issues. Thank you so much to our witnesses with powerful testimony. I want to focus for a moment on the idea of Family Impact. Peoplethe things that need to understand, one of my most haunting memories was during a school visit and seeing a fifthgrade boy clearly distracted and not paying me kneeling down and asking him if he was ok and he said my mom went to jail last night. The notion that he was expected to study and Pay Attention and that innd understanding many ways, children of incarcerated parents are victims as much as others and are blameless in the conduct of an adult parent and suffer the consequences. Im intrigued by the idea of the presentence and post sentence and whether we should require sentencing judges and judges making determinations with respect to released to consider the impact on families, not just allow them to but to say to understand the reality of incarceration. Women are most often the primary theres a special relationship between a mother and their children whether shui we should do that in pretrial and sentencing dish. The full impact of your decision and not just the defense and but in family who are blameless this instance. I wonder whether you agree that that makes sense customer it absolutely makes sense and i think that should be highly considered. Massachusetts and tennessee have signed that very requirement into law so other states will be required to do just that. Its a requirement . Of tennesseeor just signed that legislation i believe last week or the week before and it was in last years omnibus crime reform bill in massachusetts. Nittygritty is the transformation of the prosecutorial function and of the bench in terms of how prosecutors and judges understand what is expected of them. You make changes, he also have to implement training and good education. The second thing i want to mention is there has been a lot of talk about separation of family as it relates to placement of a person in custody. Is there any good policy reason you can think of that we shouldnt simply require the bureau to place the defendant in a facility closest to their home . Its consistent with security needs but if there is a facility closed by, there should be a presumption and they have to argue if in fact they dont follow that the have to give some reason . Miles, 250 miles, is still a Long Distance for anyone to travel. Why not have the presumption be you are closest to your family. Family, thee a poor location might as well be mars. Do you agree that makes sense . I absolutely agree that makes supervision can get complicated and there is little oversight. The requirement of the federal government to oversee local Law Enforcement which ive support would be necessity. The final thing i want to ask you about is in the state of rhode island, we had a very robust Reentry Initiative in areh defendants before they returned to the community can meet with a reentry counselor that has housing experts in Health Care Experts and be sure there is in place a copper has a plan where they are successful and reentering. It has really produced it for results because we have seen evidence about people released without the support system who come back and dont have a place to live and they get involved with drugs again. I wonder whether your experience in the federal system whether you had a similar experience. Do you think some model like that makes sense customer absolutely that makes sense that there is no programming, no reentry, there is limited you dont even have access to information to fill out for your drivers license. Given tono information you in the federal system. They do not prepare you whatsoever. Theyre released and when release you, they are done with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Representative dean . I am pleased to be here and i thank all of you for your important testimony on all of these issues. My limited time come i wanted to zero in on a couple of things. , i was a state representative in pennsylvania and i was on the Judiciary Committee there constantly fighting new mandatory minimums. I appreciate very much the way use oak about the discretion with the judges. Some of the sentences might be that long under the discretion of the judge based on the fact and law and front of him or her. I will say, maybe im interested in the notion of addiction and Substance Abuse disorder and its impact on this. And Montgomery County in may of emmayear, a woman named was convicted and sentenced to 21 years in prison as a result of disturbing heroin and sharing heroin in a kfc bathroom with her friend who was 20 years old that day and died. This is an extraordinarily serious case. There are victims all around. Was sentencedma, to 21 years in prison as a result of a mandatory minimum for allowing that woman to overdose and die and not alerting First Responders but enhanced because it was within 1000 feet of a school. Can you speak to the notion of abuseion, substance disorder, annex, heroine and how that relates to incarceration . Propertys part of the and drug crimes you see women being incarcerated for. With women, many times because they are notction, getting treatment necessarily once they go to jail or prison. Many times, they are selfmedicating because of the trauma they have experienced before coming and contact with the criminal Justice System. Then it just becomes a cycle. We dont treat the trauma. We dont treat the Substance Abuse that is responding to the trauma which is the selfmedication. Then we will keep going around and around if we dont. I appreciate that. I also have the chance as state representative to visit muncie prison in pennsylvania, and all womens prison between addiction, Mental Health disorders and the connection between conspiracy and life sentences is externally powerful. Can you talk about the issue and maybe you both can tommy your experience with other women in prison and whether they suffered life sentences, what we could be doing better in terms of life sentences as it occurs with women . Initially sentencing someone to life is wrong. I understand punishment and crime but i think the punishment needs to fit the crime and we should not just wash our hands of people. I think we need to allow to punish them for their crime and let it fit the crime but lets help them to not let this happen again, what is the actual problem . Is it psychological or Mental Health or drugs or addiction . Do they need education . We need to not just lock people up. We should not bury them alive, we need to actually help them. Somebody described that they just dont want to die there. You use the words wash our hands of people. In a prison with pope francis in philadelphia where he used the gospel about washing the feet of your visitor, washing the feet of those who have traveled lifes dusty, dirty road because we all go down bad roads. Maybe you could speak to that. Ssue the pope wanted to say thats not your whole story and know that we are all broken people like you. When i think about the point you raise come i think about my students in ohio. I have lifers in the mens and womens facility where i teach. I have a young woman in my womens writing class who was sentenced when she was 16 years old and the propensity for us to put children into the adult system in this country is significant. 1525w the decade between is a decade were Brain Development is not complete. Are rife and we all make bad decisions during that time. Not all of us are held accountable in the same way. I have three students who were sentence as children to adult life sentences and each of them are remarkably intelligent, thoughtful, humane people now and very different people now than when they committed their crime. I believe passionately that everyone deserves a Second Chance and sometimes a third chance but deserves to be measured not only for their worst act but also for the best acts and the best things theyre are capable of. That does not mean that victims innot deserve a central role reforms to her criminal Justice System but what we have seen in places like california and other places is that victims and survivors are increasingly advocating for the various reforms that other parts of the community are also calling for. I just want to put onto the governor willr grant to clemency and committed some sentences of lifers. Its very important that he do states and federal government should seek greater federal Justice Reform. Thank you. The issue of women stuck in an unjust criminal Justice System is becoming a greater issue in this country. Its really part of the conversation. I thank you and other women who may be present today for lifting up your voices and for your courage and sharing your stories. Its the only way we are going to bring attention to the issues so thank you for being here today. The fact is that most women are charged with lowerlevel offenses and have less extensive criminal histories than their male counterparts. In 2017, women of color were particularly impacted by our laws were 40 of federal women offenders are hispanic and 21 are black. 85 hese women, upwards of of the history of domestic or sexual abuse and 60 of the women right now imprisoned have children 18 years or younger. Miss macto start with curdy. We have seen the state population of women has grown by 834 . Why do you think we have had such a drastic increase of women were now in the prison system . Drugsause of the war on is one of the major reasons. Both in the federal and state system, we have focused much of our attention in the federal system, 45 of the people are there for drug offenses. Almost half of the people in federal custody are there for drug offenses. Some of them are women. What you are seeing is the result of the focus on the war on drugs. Met men and women are in prison even though they really need treatment and dont need incarceration and our money would be better spent if we theird on treating Substance Abuse because a lot of it is Substance Abuse. Whether they were charged with trafficking or possession, and spending on the federal level, 36,000 per year per person to incarcerate people, we could 20,000 per year for drug treatment or less . The Economic Cost is huge for the human cost is devastating. The imprisonment rate of africanamerican women was twice the rate of imprisonment for white women and Hispanic Women were imprisoned 1. 4 times more than white women. Why are women of color more likely to be in prisoned at twice the rate than white women question mark what solutions do you see in solving this gap . Anwe have to develop alternative to incarceration. Be veryto also responsive to their health needs. Their Mental Health needs their physical health needs, psychological needs and we have to train correction staff. When women end up in prison, we have to make sure they are being responsive to women. The prison system was built on the fact that men would be in them. A lot of the policies reflect that and they have not caught up to the fact that we have so many women in those prisons. Policies have to be responsive to gender needs. Those are some of the major things we need to focus on. We talked about shackling on the federal level which has been addressed to a certain extent but we havent talked about solitary confinement. Arenant women are also often held in home and solitary environment while their pregnant and postpartum. We have to ban the policy that allows women who are pregnant to be held in solitary confinement. Its very dangerous. Thank you, as a mother, its been tough to hear your testimony this morning. Its tough enough to see that this administration is following separation policies and they do the same in the criminal Justice System and is just heartbreaking. That policy, not crimes drive incarceration. I have seen that and other policies of the administration. Can you explain what you mean by that . Sure, you are drawing attention to Racial Disparities in the system as a reflection of policy. I live in ohio and you might have two young men committing the exact same offense but by policy and procedure, one of those young men might be heavily policed if he lives in a poor neighborhood in one of the young men might not be policed at all if he lives in a Fraternity House at osu. Those disparities, those are policy choices those things drive disparity and drive some of the problems. We have talked a lot about Substance Abuse disorder and its a factor in driving incarceration and the availability or lack of treatment. I have to draw our attention back to this policy of mandatory minimum sentencing. If harsh punishment related to drug offenses worked, then we would not be where we are with addiction and drug abuse in this country. Ohio has one of the highest overdose rates in the country. We incarcerate a huge number of lowlevel drug offenders. It is not result in less addiction and less substance use. There is a certain point in time, decades in, when we have to say, regardless of what our punitive instincts are, that the policies and approach we have used is not working in terms of the Public Health and safety concerns which concern is the most. Thats a good example of policy driving incarceration even as it fails to solve the problems we want solved in the community. Thank you but i think im out of time. Thank you. One policy we have in states and federal both is we have private prisons. Would like to know your opinions on that as a factor in driving prison population and is there any study to show jurisdictions without and with private resins and the rate of incarceration and the length of sentences . Who wants to jump in . I think private prisons definitely help keep mass incarceration in play. They provide space to hold people and they often times take the easiest cases and charge the government the most to take care of people and do a poor job of it. There is no government oversight. The private aspect of incarceration extends for past prison. To womensortant incarceration because about half of women are incarcerated in jails rather than prisons. Jails use a lot of private contractors that make it difficult we were talking about family separation in jail, even though you are a stance of the closer to home, its often in touch because the phone call rates are much higher. Some county jails in michigan its 1. 50 per minute to talk on the phone. Jails are more likely to have letter bands so literally banning letters from home. You need a postcard to comedic it with your family and this is often termed into visit does video visits. The Company Charges 20 for a video visit and your family still has to drive to the jail that they cannot see you. They are in a separate room with a video monitor. Yes, there is a lot of private companies benefiting from mass incarceration and making things worse within the criminal Justice System. Privatizing prisons are a self fulfilling prophecy. Often times if its empty, the state is fine. The state will do everything they can to not be fined to fill these bets so is a selffulfilling prophecy and no one wins except the people making money. Tennessee is one of the worst states i think. One of the large private prison people are housed there. They lobby for longer sentences and lobbying about different ways of release and made a lot is anybody done a study on the cost to society of maybe a mother, distinguish from a father removed from a family and what cost that is to society . I dont know about financial but i havent seen any studies on the financial cost but i know the cost to children is that they often develop anxiety and in the end, they end up in the criminal and juvenile Justice System. That is the human cost of being separated from their mothers because they dont have the guidance they need in the early and are traumatized by the separation from their mother. From my own personal study, we had two incomes when we were married and we had purchased our first home and bought property to build our first home when i was initially indicted. I went away to prison and we went to a Single Family income where my then husband had to take a different job because he could not take care of a hoursekold baby with the so we had a loss of income and then became dependent on state for medical insurance for the children. You lose. I have a bill called the theh start act with democratic leadership. You would provide a pathway for expungement of federal crimes if you have seven years without any penalties and you get your record expires. How would that help women and other prisoners and family . Expungement would be a huge benefit and a good example of a smart policy change. Much, much more fortunate than most former lady incarcerated people in this country but i still cannot trips my sons field under ohio state law because i have a felony conviction. My good conduct since my release in 2005. Expungement under appropriate guidelines with whatever you considered putting into the legislation would be a huge enough it and there are an estimated 70 Million People in this country who have some kind of criminal record. This is not a fringe issue, impacts an anonymous amount of americans. Thank you very much, youll that. Thank you very much. Before we conclude, i want to thank todays witnesses. I think this was a very powerful one of the things im encouraged buys this is a very bipartisan hearing. It bipartisan from the witnesses and from the questions and comments of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle. Points inmake a few concluding. I think its clear and statistics would back this up is that women are arrested at a High Percentage and incarcerated because of their relationship with men. Thatonspiracy laws especially were used a lot during the war on drugs were used to address to arrest women and use women as leverage as the female partner of a drug dealer, to get at the man. Maybe with the assumption he would rescue her. What happens is that he abandons her and cuts her loose and she rep andkes the rep ands serves more sometimes serves more time than the man she was being leveraged for. A small percentage of women are arrested for Violent Crime but even then, the Violent Crime is related to abuse. Its related to responding to someone who is abusing her, especially women who are arrested for murder. This gives us an opportunity to really examine gender specific criminal Justice Reforms. A comment on pregnancy when a woman delivers in it and is separated from her childlike was shown in the clip, its not just a matter that she is sad. It is physiological changes that happen during and especially after pregnancy. There is a massive decrease in hormones. It was happening to that women. When women go into postpartum depression, it is physiological as well as psychological. We can only imagine what happens to women who are put in solitary orfinement during pregnancy after delivery. It puts them at risk for suicide. Im glad to see that there is interest and support on the issue from both sides of the a conversation we had with each other during this hearing, i believe that this could be the first step toward developing comprehensive legislation that addresses criminal Justice Reform that is also gender specific all stopped thank you very much and the hearing is adjourned. Nice working with you. Host caller[captions copyrightl cable satellite corp. 2019] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] democratic president ial candidate senator Elizabeth Warren attends a house party in hampton falls, New Hampshire this afternoon thats scheduled for for 2 30 p. M. And we will have it live on cspan and online at www. Cspan. Org and on the cspan radio app. Campaign 2020, watch our live coverage of the president ial candidates on the campaign trail and make up your own mind. Yourns campaign 2020, unfiltered view of politics. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg delivers remarks in little rock, arkansas as part of a special lecture series hosted by the Clinton Foundation and the Clinton School of public service. Live coverage begins tuesday at 7 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan. Senator Bernie Sanders held a town hall meeting in raymond, New Hampshire yesterday. It followed an ice cream social hosted by the founders of ice cream maker ben jerrys. [chanting] let me thank all of you for coming out with me and thank entangled strings for their music. [applause] and erin lahey theres my jacket