Themselves. Oberlin. Big fan of Steve Hayward is the senior resident fellow of the institute of Governmental Affairs at uc berkeley and a visiting lecturer at the Uc Berkeley Law School and of course a senior fellow at pri. I heard steve back in december 1991. Steve has been affiliated with us for a very long time. He was a Ronald Reagan distinguished professor at pepperdine and also was the first conservative professor in a special program at university of colorado boulder 20132014. I think the most exciting thing about stevie as he is one of the people behind powerline. If you dont read powerline every day, you should. Charles and i were in hysterics every saturday morning looking at the week in pictures that steve sends out. If you dont get it, you must. Speaker worked with larry silverman. We were with him in corsica a few years ago for one of his conferences which was great fun. He clerked for Supreme CourtJustice Clarence thomas. He has been a fulbright distinguished chair in italy, the university of chicago, he has written several books and he hails from philadelphia. When his wife doesnt want to go on trips with him, his mother is very keen to go. They are going to my to picchu in peru very soon. Please welcome our panelists. [applause] yes, it is live. What john and i thought we would do is have a bit of a conversation, i will throw out a view additional propositions and we will have some backandforth. Then we will take some questions from the audience and see where it goes. I thought that was better than just giving standard speeches. Sally gave some headlines and i think i will start late them just slightly. One of headlines my old mentors used to have sufficient paranoia, which holds that no matter how agitated things are, its invariably the case that when you look closer, you find out that things were even worse than you thought. Case of administrative bloat on College Campuses, people think that is what is running up the cost of universities, the number of administrators has soared much faster than faculty, they are all paid very large salaries. And that is true it would however, there is a second part of it, which is, and theres been a little bit of work on press, ands made the even the New York Times. The administrators tend to be even worse than the faculty when radicalism. Deranged remember diversity on College Campus means people look different but think the same. A lot of them are drawn from some of the more politicized ideological departments. Your average college liberal professor is relatively sane compared to a lot of administrators. Its especially true at private liberal arts colleges. Sally made mention of the Oberlin College verdict. If youre not following it closely, you might be wondering why did the court find a private college liable for the actions of students off campus. One of the chief reasons was that the dean of students, an advisor to the president for diversity and inclusion, participated actively in the student protest, help the students organize, passed out their flyers, sent lots of incriminating emails about how awful the bakery was. It reinforced the harassment about some totally bogus charges. The nice thing about americans, we still have trial by jury. The jury in that part of ohio did not take too kindly to all of this. And ihat the remedy will come back to this in a couple of minutes is just about every university ought to inspire half of their administrators. It would matter which have. Things would get better if you fire half the administrators. There are few universities that have announced cutbacks in administrative positions. The reason for that is declining enrollment. We are already seeing a decline in enrollment, and that is putting a downward pressure on tuition. Colleges cutseen their sticker price, but the actual prices falling fast a lot of universities. That will get worse for demographic reasons. Think back 1011 years ago and the financial crisis. The birth rate fell by quite a lot. So the pool of young people that colleges need to draw on to fill up their classes is starting down, and its really going to go off the cliff and another four or five years. Colleges know this, so that will put more downward pressure on tuition and the ability to price. We cannot afford these 300,000 administrators, so we will see. The second thing is, we have a lot of data showing that college and university faculties, which have always been liberal, for decades and decades, this is not a new thing. There was always a certain quotient of visible radicalism. If they wreck a few english departments, thats better than having them out on the street. The problem with universities is their borders are porous, and sometimes these guys sneak out. Who would not have preferred that barack obama remained a all professor, right a law professor, right . There used to be at least some conservatives around. Jean person20 of faculties overall. 15 20 . The number has dwindled dramatically. It has been cut by about two thirds. The reasons for that are complicated and disputed. Colleges are more of an echo chamber than they have ever been. Ofpractice, it grows out what you know as think. The more people as groupthink. The more people with ideological opinions spend time together, the more radical and narrowminded they get. Thats why you see these repeated instances on college where students are a ulty member or anybody unreasonable is too mild a word. It is completely insane and off the hook. That is a big problem. I think it has two consequences. One that is obvious and wellknown, one less so. The first consequence is, the number of students majoring in the humanities and social sciences has also been plummeting in the last 25 years. A number of history majors has fallen off the cliff, english majors, philosophy. But also Political Science is holding its own, but ought to be doing better in some ways. Economics is the one exception. Of course that is the most robust and successful of the social sciences. And also the one where you find the most libertarians and conservatives and nonleftist professors. For the most part, i think that is correct. I think there is a connection there. A lot of people say students are not majoring in history anymore because they are more concerned about getting a job. They want to study stem subjects and business and economics. There may be some truth to that. I think it is because the increasingly radical content of those humanities and social Science Department simply turn off a lot of students. The majority of students are not radical or leftist themselves. The majority of students are not. The Largest Group describe themselves as moderate, to some extent. I think the canary in the coal of prominentmber universities, columbia, m. I. T. , have applied with the federal government to change their official classification. Its a funny little thing i did not even know existed. Economicswith departments are classifying , likelves as stem engineering or physics or chemistry. Why are they doing that . I think part of it is that even liberal economists who are , they look around at the other social sciences and humanities and say we dont want to be in the college of arts and sciences with all these loons. We would rather be i think it is the canary in the coal mine. Eventually big research universities. We are moving toward a situation where you are going to have a university that is stem subjects, economics, business, prelaw, Political Science, and the rest of the university, humanities and social sciences which will wither and die. Fewer students will want to be in those departments, and that will be interesting. I will mention a couple of remedies. I already mentioned firing administrators. Second, one thing to do is figure out ways to create competition within universities. A lot of you are familiar with things like the James Madison center at princeton that was founded 20 something years ago. Arizona State University has set up its own new school on economic thought and political thought that is independent of traditional departments. It now has a competitive curriculum with traditional departments. Faculty are not happy about that, but the Legislature Said this is going to happen. Another idea that has been floating around is somebody needs to step up and start a new university or to. We havent seen Something Like that since brandeis, which was 70 years ago. Finally, i wont say the craziest idea, but the one that is most remarkable not remarkable, but unconventional, and this is something the Trump Education Department might pick up just to scare people and say, what is all this fixation with a bachelors degree . Why dont we create some alternative way of certifying that someone is educated and capable, like we do for example with the cpa exam. So you can take alternative methods of education, online classes, study on your own. The Kim Kardashian approach to passing the bar exam. We should experiment with these things. Part of the story is the cartel of accrediting agencies and the nature of reinforcing that you are nothing if you dont have a ba. Maybe create a competitive avenue. Ba asof employers use the a screening mechanism to find young people that show they can create a course of study, and thats not bad. Maybe we should be even bolder than that. I will stop there. Thank Stephen Sally for inviting me to join you today. Getting steve to join berkeley is probably the only thing i have done on behalf of ideological diversity at berkeley other than continuing to exist and not leave the campus. [laughter] you can be the judge of whether it has been successful. Diagnosis. With the i am not a scholar of Higher Education policy. I think i am here more because, unlike Robinson Crusoe on the island. You are just curious, how did he survive, and what lessons can we draw just by looking at how he made it on the Desert Island . Everything i see from being one of the few conservatives at berkeley quite comports with everything that steve gave in his diagnosis of what is wrong with the universities, the academic blow to personnel. For every one new professor added to a faculty, universities are adding more than 10 administrators, over the last 2030 years. There has been a huge rise in tuition. Often subsidized by the federal government, proved very cheap student loans. Universities are not using them to add professors. They are using them to add things to attract students like , severalrms, gyms universities have added water amusement parks to their campuses. I always thought eating bad food was part of the college experience. I would not have met my wife had it not been for bad food on College Campuses, because we had to go out somewhere to eat. One thing i would emphasize that steve did not emphasize as much, though he did mention it, i think one of the main problems with Higher Education today is the elevation of identity politics and racial diversity and gender diversity, above all other valves values at the university. I think if you look at what the university was before, and this is where it started and now it is spreading to other parts of society. You have a Great University like berkeley, maybe a secondplace kind of place like stanford just teasing. The deal was you wanted to have a faculty that did the very best research for the benefit of society. At the same time you want students to the best professors were not doing the best teaching. They were doing cuttingedge research. They would teach students to learn how to take their place and do that. I think that has been replaced at most of the Top Research Universities by a desire to meet racial and gender diversity goals. Once that becomes the highest value of the university and start to suffer. You should add that at oberlin, it wasnt just an administrator, there are a lot of faculties involved in this lynch mob mentality to go after this bakery that had done nothing wrong from the case i read. The most important thing for a to achieve now is diversity. I think at berkeley, we spend many millions of dollars on racial and diversity bureaucracy. Instead, we are choosing to spend taxpayer money on gender and racial diversity issues. Every school, every department has an officer who is paid to do this every time you do a search for a new faculty member, you have to write a lengthy report about how it meets gender and racial diversity goals. Of course, we get to the terrible scandals in admissions now. Look at Harvard College. One or two people came up to me who admitted secretly they had gone to Harvard College like i did. I cannot believe the amount of distortion that has gone on in the admissions process to hit certain racial diversity goals to the extent that you take ,sian students in particular the five criteria that students are measured on, they are in the top quintile of the fifth is personality where asian students suddenly rank at the bottom. No stereotypes there. [laughter] harvardthough the admissions director admitted most of the students had never interviewed. I think asians have no personality will come to a big surprise to the billion and a half people in china and the other billion in india that might be eating our economic lunch these days. What do you do about it . What is the remedy . I differ with steves idea of disassociating i think its true in terms of diagnosis that universities can live in this world and even prosper, because what they are selling is a credential used by businesses to hire because it shows students can crawl through the mud and cracks of universities and they are so disciplined and can persevere, they can do anything a corporation wants them to do. Won the nobel prize for do i can see why you would say why do we over from these leftwing crazy people at universities who are just performing credentialing function . Lets move the credentialing function somewhere else. I know they do things like this in germany and other countries. Im not sure its a great idea. Islittle effort at reform inspired by being one of the few conservatives at yale law school. We have something called the Federalist Society in law schools. The head of the berkeley federal society is over there. She is alive, too. She didnt get killed off by anybody. It brings conservative ideas to law schools, libertarian and conservative ideas. I would have to say that was the only exposure, the only time i heard about scalia and thomas was at Federalist Society events, not in class. We want to at least expose some students to get a debate to conservative ideas. To support our alma maters. We dont have to give a blank check to the university to say lazy riverer amusement waterpark to attract the best students. Instead, give money and focused ways to programs like i think the one steve is running, and from brad,other one to bring conservative ideas to students. More and more can actually hear them. This is where the universities have to step up, in a setting where there is no riot, where are going to allow people who are so scared of hearing different ideas that they want to engage in violence to suppress it. Unfortunately, berkeley witnessed two of those, and it has been spreading all over the country. Actually, i do want to say, because it is true, berkeley will never live down its long reputation going back to the Free Speech Movement before. However, berkeley is actually quite a bit better, especially a lot of these private liberal arts colleges like oberlin, like sarah lawrence. Harvard and yale, for that matter, that behaved disgracefully. The school was running a deficit. She said, i will take whatever it takes do whatever it takes to make sure his free speech hts are not one of the problems with the campus at berkeley is it has porous borders. Realized thend i night before schapiro was going to show up, a truck showed up and installed the barriers around the perimeter and created an opening to have crowd control. They brought out an immense police force. Not want a repeat of the milo riot. Good for her, i think she deserves all the praise for that. Conservatives do get some blame here. Not responsible conservatives, but i could see berkeley likents inviting someone milo or ann coulter, they want to stick it in the face of the campus admission. They want to get the most outrageous, most frequently provocative person. I kind of understand. It is sort of if students on the left invited people from the nation of islam to speak. There would be a campus explosion. I think conservatives should try a bendmay be like schapiro, more responsible, people who are not just there who would not like a riot. I think the problem is with ann anlter or milo, they have interest in things getting shut down. I would like Heather Mcdonald or Steve Hayward show up at and engage in intelligent bates with other side ash debates with other side. That is the point. There was a book a couple years ago called becoming right, how campuses shape young conservatives. At twoterviewed students campuses. Harvard and the university of colorado boulder. Aboutlso talked a lot places like berkeley, santa barbara, ohio state. I will restate the question. Why is it that you will get students, conservative students want to have milo or ann coulter at a place like berkeley, but not yale or harvard or princeton . Its not just because those are elite ivy league schools, is because they have what harvey conspicuouslls speculativ conservativism. Have the William F Buckley program at yale that has a speaker almost every week. Its been growing like crazy. After that ridiculousness at yale a few years ago over halloween costumes, alumni quit giving money to colleges and give it to the buckley program. The point is that for students who have no conspicuous conservativism, it is quite understandable that they want to give the middle finger to the campus. Milo is a handy way to do that. You will find that conservative students at other universities, arizona state, they are less interested in the provocative model. They are more interested in having more serious debate. , a backup,ve a home they dont feel isolated. Anyway, berkeley is a huge we0 are trying to replicate that. In some way. Huge place. Is a we are trying to replicate that in some way. Heart, i am a conservative and a pessimist and we are fighting a losing battle to maintain the idea that we should study the best that has and try toritten advance the frontiers of knowledge, but its hard to see turning the universities around, admittedly. Even if we bring conservative speakers to campus, having been at the Berkeley Campus for 25 years, i cant see any way to turn this ship around. If anything, and the last 10 years, the left has added another generator and engine on it and turbocharged off into the wilderness. I dont see how we can prevent the direction things are going. Steve first of all, i have the attitude of a late hungarian friend of mine who lived by the adage, things are serious, but not yet bad. That might be too optimistic. [laughter] he was a college professor, by the way. John great timing. Steve yes. A couple of thoughts. The good thing about human nature is that its on our side. That manifests itself in a couple of ways. One, almost all students grow up and start paying taxes. That is a sobering moment for a number of students. It usually is an educational moment. Not for all of them, but for some. , in myer one is that experience, usually it is the brightest of the leftist students, they are eager to learn something else. They actually get tired of the narrow conformity of the left. That muchink it takes to create a different dynamic. That has been my experience. Have hadfun students i have been the liberals who told me directly that they wanted to hear something else. At some point, i have to write an article about most conservative academics, not just through ideology that they differ, it is the method and manner of teaching in the classroom that is different. Id say it is true for at least half, if not more. Theres a lot to that story. Liberal students understand that and see that. I think one of us is worth 20 of them, so you dont need very many of us to have an effect on Good Students who are serious about their education. There are several more dimensions of this i could go through. I will give you one little angle on it. Wasthe longest time, i writing an article i was going to call one chair for Ward Churchill. , chairmant crazy guy of the Ethnic Studies Department at colorado, he got caught saying that people in the twin towers 9 11 were little eichmanns of capitalism and deserved it. He got fired after that, although not for being crazy. They said it was plagiarism. They fired him because he was an embarrassment to the university. The last thing people want is to throw some light on how crazy it is. But why Ward Churchill . One of the reasons so many students flock to these radicalized departments, critical theory, gender studies, the rest, for all their jargon and ideology, they are asking the basic question, what is justice . Do engage the passions of students in a way that a lot of Political Science courses and sociology dont. What do you get in Political Science these days . Coherent, straightforward discussions of justice. Education the oldfashioned way that areested in interested in of law school,or we dont want anything to do with anyones souls. [laughter] sure. John that is interesting you see the hope in students. When i was hired, there were still what i call new deal liberals, professors who were liberal but they thought, lets have diversity we can agree with, ideological diversity. It was fun to have people with different views. Socrates and plato were teaching. They didnt want everyone in their little symposia to think like them. I think it is disappearing, if it has not already disappeared from most departments. Other than the hard sciences, i think in a lot of the social sciences and humanities departments, you have people who dont believe in ideological diversity. They wont hire conservatives. I think when i retire, which will be when i die many years in the future, i hope, because they are not getting me out of there although if there was a good buy out, i would think about it. But i would be shocked if they replaced me with another conservative. Thinkk the faculty today that what they are doing with diversity is just the right answer. You would never have people who think the wrong thing. The right thing these days is racial and gender diversity. I think you are right, the students are hungry for lots of different opinions. Youhe same time, i think see faculties constricting legitimate points of view and arguments for faculty and scholarship. Steve i think maybe we should turn to questions or comments now. I can see a couple hands in the back. Will let you pick them ok. , a former miriam administrator of universities. M. I. T. Uncle who was at said that the International Students office at m. I. T. Has as all as administrators as eth, and that was in the 50s. The second thing i would like to say, i challenge mr. Hayward on one thing that the english professors can do that much damage. The problem is that there was just an english professor at uc who basically told students to go kill policeman. This guy has not been fired. The third thing i would like to ay is i just witnessed student from high School Getting a scholarship by a republican womens group, that student that an essay, i think essay was about a third grade essay. Steve ok. My comment about the english payrtment a small price to to keep radicals off the street, i was being for c6 facetious. I dontoning that know if you saw this, in the last couple of weeks, i guess there is some website or not sure what, but it can sweep the entire text of every New York Times article for the last 20 years. They select certain terms and words. All of the jargon of the Higher Education like intersectionality, white foremacy, all the graphs the last five years, and the last three years, all of them skyrocketed. A lot of people from these departments have graduated and been hired at the New York Times. They are also hired at facebook and twitter and thats why they are censoring things. They had taken down eight hitlers speech from youtube that teachers were using to teach history. My comment may have been a little bit flip, but to the extent that it was true that all the silliness was confined to the classroom and kids would graduate and get jobs and be more sensible, there is less reason to think that now. John i want to defend steve a little bit, and this doesnt happen often, so pay attention. You referenced it. There is this kind of deal or even strongly and understanding, but you do see this river city push diversity push taking place in the softer disciplines where its harder to observe who is good or bad as a scholar. I think you really dont see this in physics. You dont see it in the sciences. Constantlyors are demanding it, im sure. But you dont see this level of demand for diversity or the implementation and the hard Science Departments. Once that happens, then i would become really worried about the quality of our universities. If you look at all these international rankings, despite american things, universities are far and away better than any other universities in the world. I think a lot of that has to do with the performance of our hard Science Departments that constantly win nobel prizes, continuously making discoveries that lead to great innovations and technology. I dont think they are ranking world universities based on english faculties or history departments. One of the things that gives me confidence when i review the applications of foreign students, and we get thousands of applications from china, every time i see a Chinese Students transcript and icy thought one,nist we might i think that stay ahead of them for a few more centuries. But then i wonder, maybe thats a good idea for berkeley, maybe thoseill start requiring classes and our disadvantage will appear disappear. I would like to weigh in on what seems to be your conflation admissions inspired and gender inspired admissions as though the two were coequal evils. I am here to tell you i have a daughter who graduated from honors from buck canal in Mechanical Engineering and management. She is doing astronomically well. She was bitterly disappointed when she was rejected from cornell and uc berkeley. In the theory of experimentation, she took Summer School courses taught by cornell professors. In both courses, she got an a plus at cornell, beat out everybody in the class. At uc berkeley, she got an a plus in chemistry and the professor came up to her and said, my dear, i dont know where you go to college, but i will personally write a letter of recommendation for you to come to uc berkeley. Said,ghter stood up and sir, i have already been rejected by uc berkeley once, you will not have the opportunity to do it again. John obviously, there are individual cases where there will be discrimination. Im not saying it doesnt occur. I think berkeley and the sciences and engineering would love to have more women for students and faculty if they could. I would bet that what has happened, we didnt get into this longer story, but i think what has happened is we have moved away from a system which i think of as a very meritocratic system based on sat scores, test scores, performance and courses, moved away from that to a system of holistic evaluation of applicants, which im afraid is really just a cover to allow Admissions Officers to consider race. Thats one. Second thing is look at the other College Admissions scandal we havent talked about, the one about buying your way into allege by suddenly finding sailing prodigy and your family teams. Esnt have sailing of course it was uc davis. Actually, berkeley has not been involved yet. I just. Like teasing competitor schools. Shows not that these things go on, it shows that when you move off the meritocratic system based on test scores and grades, anything counts. Of course, you will have all kinds of naming of the system. These people were just gaming of the system. These people were more obvious about it because they were bribing. If you have more competition, who is going to do better at that . Who is going to be better at sending their kids to third world countries to build systems, or to become really good at a sport or an art . I think it will be wealthier people. The unfortunate thing is this new system of admissions that all the schools are moving to the university of chicago doesnt use sat scores anymore, which i find incredible. Fromthe schools move away a more meritbased system of admission, you are going to have all kinds of abuses and inexplicable results. The admissions offices are using this as a culture for cover for social engineering. Steve i will add that it has been true for several years know that more women than men are going to college. It is more skewed in private liberal arts colleges. Sometimes it is 6040 women to men. Especially in the third or second year liberal arts colleges, back east there are a million of them, they really have. A struggle Admissions Officers are terrified of going below the ratio. They get so many applications from women. Especially a place like berkeley that gets 120,000 applications a year for 11,000 spots. Beyond the aggregate numbers, i think it is true that women outnumber men slightly in law school. I think they are close to even in business schools. Then you go down the graduate and professional degree programs. Education, masters, phd, 80 women. Then at the other end of the scale, physics, engineering, chemistry, 20 women. You can do the bars. 80 for education. To talknot supposed about these things, we are embarrassed about it. But i do know there are women who are stellar in science. We might as well just play that game. Not that game, but take advantage of that. I know one young lady professor in a very prestigious Engineering Department in iowa, she was off her tenure. She called me up and said she was getting opposition. She had written one oped article. She had a long list of articlese published and sciences. She said the dean said that there is trouble with my tenure because of the one oped article about Climate Change that wasnt following the orthodoxy. And i said to her to go to the dean and tell him, i know all the Science Departments want women professors. If they dont want to give me tenure, let me know and i will have another job by 5 00 this afternoon. Which i think is true. Anyway, good luck to your daughter and people like that. One more back here. In reference to the admissions scandal, how do you feel with this going forward, with the decline of an and roman, do you see this continuing abuse . John the harvard admissions , and another companion case, the Pacific Legal for new York Public Schools because the mayor is trying to introduce racial. Uotas there are these cases moving forward. I think the Supreme Court will take one of the two. If you look at the lineup of the justices, there are at least four justices on the court who would vote to strike down the use of race in College Admissions. It is actually quite bizarre as a matter of Supreme Court precedent that race can only be used by the government when it has the most compelling interests and race is the only way you can achieve that interest. The only two areas the court has recognized that this can happen is wartime and College Admissions. This is such an anomaly and its only because i think Justice Oconnor and Justice Kennedy a bleepedit was opinion. I think it is an anomaly in our jurisprudence. Assuming chief Justice Roberts votes the way he has, which is never a guarantee these days, but i assumed if those justices voted consistently that they will use one of those cases to strike down the use of race, which i think would be a good turning point to restoring at least, or turning the direction of the ship, towards a more meritocratic university system. Steve how do we get meritocracy in the first place . It was the creation of elite universities 75 years ago. They want standardized tests. They woke up one day and say racial and ethnic and gender distributional results, we are not happy with. That, is theng university the place where you star trek to fix the problems of minorities the place where to fix the problems of minorities with schools . What is happening right now is there have always been exceptions to the meritocracy. Athletes, musicians, people in drama. As we learned, you could exploit , i like the phrase the side door, bribing the sailing coach at stanford. The public reaction has been not surprising to me, people suspect there is something rotten going on here across the board. Up a lot of this places, that berkeley and elsewhere, you might say the liberal elite establishment and the universities are rethinking the idea of meritocracy directly. There are people openly speaking maybe meritocracy is not the way institutions should be structured and organized. Inthey actually follow that practice, especially if you cant use race as an admissions factor, it will create chaos and i have no idea where it will go, but nowhere good. I was wondering if you could comment on the work that Mitch Daniels is doing at purdue and his reform and how he has been able to control costs, bring bureaucracy under control. If thats not a model for a sign of hope for improvement. It is absolutely a model. He has been president of purdue a model. Is absolutely he has been president of produce for about 10 years and tuition dollar. Gone up one we dont need new desks. We dont need cars in the fleet that we dont use. He sold off assets. Not hiring lots of people. Asking, why cant this be copied . I had one very brief conversation with him about this ago. Le i wish he was more aggressive in the way john silver was 30 years ago at Boston University on curriculum reforms. He is playing his strengths and god bless him for that, but it ought to be a model for people. Sooner or later, people will wake up to that, i think by necessity. John i think you are absolutely right that the departure from is the responsible from the recent admissions scandal involving rick singer, claims of bias against Asian Americans at harvard. Would a possible solution be to admissions process to be more transparent so that it was clear to the public just how the selection was being made, which might push towards a meritbased process, or is it hopeless to think the admissions process can be made transparent in this country . Im going to suggest this and watch peoples heads explode, that i would suggest for elite places like harvard set a baseline to be a qualified applicant, whatever the test score might be. I aman also allow room, not uncomfortable with some aspects of holistic consideration for students. Maybe you dont test well but you have good grades and great recommendations from teachers who are serious. They say this person might be able to do the work. In other words, you get a qualified pool of people and then admit them by lottery. Lets do that. Of course, the universities dont want to do that. Part of legacy admissions is, we know this from the harvard discovery process, this person is flagged because their parents big donors. It is corrupt. If i am a minority, and you had hardly any at harvard 50 years ago, you look at that and say wait a minute, that is an unjust privilege. So thats why i say i am not uncomfortable with some ways of trying to puzzle this out. It has its problems, but lets oa lottery system at the endgame. Go a lottery system at the endgame. Its a lot more honest. John i think this is a crazy idea. [laughter] a lottery . You could have the powerball on the national television. Sense, dan is right in a like what berkeley could do, take the identifying data off of files and have the confidence to say here are all the people we admitted this year. Here are their scores. If we are so proud of the values, they will never do it. Officer,an admissions i would use a meritocratic data, course performance, and correct for socioeconomics, because some people have different quality of schooling. The universities believe that being a good sailor should put you in the freshman class, then admit it. That would be interesting. Purdue could do this. The one thing universities are, you know that Higher Education is a market. Thatne area to hope for is theory predicts there should be some institutions counter to this cycle and emphasize these values, so you could see Mitch Daniels or some person to say, i will make this transparent and theoretically we will admit all the people that other universities are not admitting because of their diversity goals, than these other universities should prosper. It used to be why the university of chicago became a Great University because they would not play that game, but now they are the first one out of the gate saying they will not use sats anymore. Thank you. One of the concerns i have these days is about the attitude of students on campus about free speech. When i was an undergraduate during the freespeech era, students wanted to have no limits whatsoever on what they could be exposed to. Now there seems to be a significant, i hope minority, but a Significant Group of students on the campus that are essentially demanding to remain ignorant. What do you suppose is the origin of this change . John what you call safe space culture and so forth . There are several routes to it that are deeply ideological and i could walk through it. There are doctrines that say that freespeech is merely a tool of power and it should be suppressed, that there is no such thing as free speech. Another one says freespeech satisfies the old principle of harm. My response is really the knowledge that milo is giving a talk that you are going to, is that more stressful than a midterm exam or a paper . Seriously, what is left about stress . Ing with i do have fun with this, especially with liberal students. I have them look at the port huron statement from 19 62, the founding documents of the students for a democratic society. They pick it up really fast. What is the disposition of that document . We want to grow up, we want responsibility, we dont want administrators looking after us. We want to take responsibility. It is an antisafe space document. The contrast and disposition from the radical students then and now, i bring this up, but i do it indirectly. The point is it is embarrassing to students now. I think it is a minority who are crazy about all this. There is a lot of pressure on students to conform and there is lots of survey data showing students are afraid to show their opinions. Not just conservative students, most students. A lot of colleges now consist of no go zones. You dont even need official censorship anymore, people are self censoring. Was just reminded that steve and i forgot to issue our trigger warning at the beginning of this event. [laughter] i start my classes saying that there will be multiple triggers so i give one at the beginning of the semester. Steve i dont do micro aggressions. I only go for fulltilt macro aggressions. John john i agree with what steve said about why freespeech is declining on campus, but one other element is i think all of you are to blame for raising the children the way you are raising them these days. A lot of students i find, the number one thing they dont want to do is offend anybody else. They are so worried about sensitiv sensitivities to the point where they dont want to say the sharpest thing or the cleverest thing to advance the discussion because they are worried with someone else will be offended. One thing i have noticed is that the discussion, i have to push them harder to say things, to carry out their ideas to their logical conclusion because people are so worried about offending each other. Has, i have to say this been an effect of the cavanaugh hearings. Students are completely worried that anything they say from middle school on will be used against them in their confirmation hearings. Themselves are a product of this environment and culture we are living in now. Themselves ares a lot responsible for this antifreespeech attitude on campus. Along with the faculty and administrators. I want to thank you both, this has been a fantastic discussion. I noticed in the discussion there is a tendency to refer to the universities as though they are a monolithic block. I wonder if you could address of private versus public universities. What different rules should apply to the issues we are discussing, and among private universities, distinguish between those who take government funding like stanford , who takes a tremendous amount, and hillsdale that takes no averment funding . Steve i have been many times, how do you get to hillsdale, turn left out of detroit and go 200 years to brigadoon. It is a wonderful place way off in the middle of nowhere. It is kind of siberia. I did mention that private colleges are worse than public universities. I think thats true. A private university, they have more latitude to have a speech code. It is the old civil rights law application. If you take federal funds, you are bound by that is why civil rights laws apply in admissions for harvard. I also think a good example is most of the administrators at berkeley, i met a lot of them, they come from places like the current deed or provost is from the chemistry department. Im sure he is a liberal, but i have spoken to him. Hes not one of these crazy ideologues. Comesan at oberlin, she from one of the crazy academic departments that teaches all the fringe he theories. Private universities have more people like that in administrative roles than public do. You can find exceptions there are deans at berkeley i dont want to meet. Thats one difference. Im notniversities, sure of the legal angle, but they have to protect freespeech just as much as public. John ultimately, you can sue them and force them, and california, there is proposition 209, the use of race was even more obvious then before. Before that, it was always 15 to 18 , and after, i think asians are about 35 to 40 of the class. They are still cheating at the margins, but they cant cheat as blatantly as they used to. That is harder to do at a private university. Public state universities, they all want to go with the herd. Thats one of the reasons i think steve is right. Theyhese administrators, dont want their heads to stick up above the grass. All of Higher Education is moving in this direction. You would expect private universities to just be more diverse and outcome so there would be some that are really bad, but then there could be space for private universities to emphasize a return for a more conservative style of education that should prosper when everyone else is making a mistake. Oddly, you might find a source for hope and reform in a smaller private college that can show the benefits of acting against the herd mentality. Thank you for being here. I will reward you both with a really easy question, which is how much, if there is a limit, should a university have to spend on security when controversial speakers come to campus . I say this against the background of two of the incidents you spoke about, the milo incident and the highsecurity at the ben shapiro one. I was there at both events. There was no security at the milo event. There was incredible security at ben shapiro. Edly how much should they pay . Steve steve i can give you the contingent prudential one, but the chancellor decided she needed to spend whatever it took to break the fever. I think she did that. In other words, that is a reasonable expense. I was in some of the discussions. You want to talk to a conservative about what do you think also, milo was threatening to come back to campus. That is another story. It was all fraud on his part. He kept announcing speakers who were going to come with him, and coming. Day, charles is i doubted that. I email charles and said are you going to this . He said hell no. The chancellor was very cool. She said just tell us what you need and we will ensure you get the speech. Didnt make a fuss, did not hit the panic button. It collapsed because it was a fraud on his part, the second proposed trip. The point is she broke the fever. The contingent answer is you should spend what ever it takes to maintain the authority of the campus to control the campus. Theres no objective figure for the. That. The lawyer in me has a much more pragmatic answer that actually works. It will have the great effect of paying for security and reducing the number of protests, which is that every time you need to spend on security, the dollar should be transferred from the diversity and Inclusion Office dollar for dollar. Well, i will be debating at berkeley against a leftwing professor on singlepayer health care in september, so i hope i will have the appropriate security. I am not a national name, but it is still worrying. Up, so youill turn have at least two supporters. Good. The second thing i will say is harvey mansfield, who is about 86 now, and still teaching, we were attending our goddaughters graduation from harvard last may. My husband was a student of harveys. His 65th year graduation from harvard last year. He did tell charles that when he retires, they will never replace harvey with a conservative, so he has to go on forever and ever and then john will go on forever and ever at berkeley. A wonderful event. I want to thank everyone for coming. A warm San Francisco thank you an to steve and john yoo for excellent job. [applause] announcer wednesday, the house convenes to consider a number of gun violence prevention bills. Watch live at 10 00 a. M. Eastern cspan. Org,nline at or listen on the free cspan radio app. Small network with an unusual name rolled out a big idea. Let viewers make up their own minds. Cspan opened the door to washington policy for all to see, bringing you unfiltered content from congress and beyond. A lot has changed in 40 years, but today that big idea is more ever. Nt than on television and online, cspan is your unfiltered view of government so you can make up your own mind. Brought to you by your cable and satellite provider. 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