redefining insurance a note of new cnn original series, new episodes tonight at nine showdown, four days until cnn's historic presidential debate. how thursday night changed the race. there's never been a better politician, a better debater and land trump's top vp contenders north dakota governor doug burgum is next and rallying cry two years after the dobbs decision, democrats rally around abortion access, or never stopped but a new poll raises questions about biden's support among women. can the president count on them in november, new york governor kathy hochul is here exclusively, plus dress rehearsal. biden huddling would debate advisers while trump plays the expectations game out on the trail, will refer to him asleep joe, what should you expect when they go head-to-head thursday night, former wisconsin governor scott walker and former obama senior adviser, david axelrod, are here to break it get down good morning. >> i'm kaitlin collins and for jake tapper tapper and dana bash here in new york or the state of our union is in debate prep. and just four days, president joe biden and former president donald trump are going to meet for a historic cnn presidential debate with the potential to dramatically reshape what has been a remarkably stable race for the white house president biden at camp david, where he is huddling with his full debate team of advisors leading up to thursday night, as he is looking to shake off trump's attacks on his age and his abilities. and also trying to turn the focus back on his opponents felony conviction, and also his proposals for a second term. meanwhile, donald trump is foregoing formal debate prep and instead holding more informal meetings with his senior advisers as sources tell me that he is soliciting advice from pretty much everybody in his inner circle from his also trying to lower expectations, expectations, and suggesting that president biden could prove to be more formidable than expected. >> they, want to get him good and strong. so a little before debate time, he gets a shot. the i say he'll come out all jacked up. right note, that is a baseless claim. >> it comes after trump spent months effectively lowering expectations for biden. trump also said yesterday that he does expect his upcoming vice presidential pick to be with him in atlanta on thursday. it's been a who's who of vp contenders that are going to be tuning in together at a debate. watch party in atlanta that includes my next guest, one of trump's top contenders to be his vice president, republican governor of north dakota, doug burgum and doug governor, it's great to have you here. obviously, this debate is going to be huge. it's in four days from now, how critical do believe it is for donald trump to have a strong performance? >> well, i think it's something that america is very excited to look forward to. and i'm sure it's going to be very good debate and congratulation to cnn for having this historic debate. >> but i think again there's, there has been a real effort on the biden team to try to lower expectations, but i think we have to look at the guys, run for office more than a dozen times. >> he's run for president four times. he's been campaigning since the president nixon was in office. this guy has got the ability and we've seen it. we've seen them in debate four years ago. we've seen them in the state of, the state of the union this year that when he needs two, he can step up, but i think this is a real opportunity for cnn most trusted name in news to ask some tough questions, including the one because this is a rematch. and when we add this debate just before the election four years ago, joe biden looked into the camera and said that hunter biden's laptop was a smear campaign, russian disinformation called it garbage. and now we know that none of that is true. and i think this is there's an opportunity that america is waiting. i mean, cnn has got an opportunity to ask tough questions of both these candidates. >> yeah, i think there are safe to say there'll be tough questions for everybody, but it's interesting that you say biden is lowering expectations because it, trump has also been doing that. you yourself have called biden and firm. i mean, you've been setting the bar pretty low for president biden. is that a mistake? >> well, i don't know if it's a mistake or not. i mean, i think there's a i think america is sort of looks at the state of the state. he stood up and he spoke strongly for over an hour and then when we're worth a group of governors with them at the back in february, we were limited to two questions. one republican governor and one democrat each got to ask a question. 40 governors, we have to questions were the president of questions had to be submitted two days in advance? that's a far cry from from standing in a debate for 90 minutes. so i think we're all anxious to see which joe biden is going to show up. but you think that biden will be formidable? well, i think he really knows how to do this. and like i said, he's he convinced america that that laptop was fake so strongly at that last debate that then the news agencies and social media then started shutting down even the ability to post about that story. and if he's that if he was that good, that about lying about that for years ago, i guess the question would be, when did he know that the laptop was real? and what might he do this time? loud condensing he was citing that letter from the intelligence officials. >> i mean, we've asked them about that sense and obviously the whole issue of social media was before the debate, but i want to ask you about something that you've been saying repeatedly about president biden. take a listen to this talk about being a dictatorship that this is the, this is what's happening under biden, under joe biden were actually living under a dictatorship today, if you want to find out what it's like to live in a dictatorship, we're living in one now how do we know what it's like under a dictatorship? >> and that dictatorship right now is joe biden i understand you don't like president biden's policies on immigration or student loans, but but respectfully, i mean, you're calling the democratically elected president a dictator. well, we've got three branches of government in this president, more like any other his bypass congress, because as a governor of a natural resources state, a big ag state, we're facing over 30 rules and mandates. each one of those could be 800 pages to 2, 1,400 pages long. none of them have come from congress and all of them could literally kill the industries that we have in our state including baseload electricity, which we need to be competitive in the arms race around ai with china, whose building baseload electricity plants like to a month so that's happening without congress. and then of course on the student loan thing, when the supreme court ruled against him, then he just said, hey, we'll figure a different way to do it. so i just think that there's again a double standard here he is bypassing the other two branches of government to push an ideological view. whether it's on economics or whether it's on climate extremism. he's doing that without, without using the other branches. and i think you don't like it. his executive orders and you don't like his policies. i understand that. i don't think anyone expects the republican governor to agree with president biden on that, but it's on a dictatorship. >> well, i think again, part of where this word has come from, it has been there had been a nonstop media attack on president trump saying that oh, that he that he might use executive orders when he takes office. and i'm trying to make again, make the point here. that under this current administration, most of the changes that are driving inflation in our country, the stuff he not doing on the border which he could be doing with executive orders. i mean, the open borders in the inflation are things that he's doing by himself alone. ignoring the other branches of government, i counted trump signed 220 executive orders when he was in office, president biden so far is only signed 139 the same timespan and on executive action on immigration. it was speaker mike johnson, who is calling on president biden to take executive action saying it wasn't congress's responsibility, it was his. butt. but let me move on because as i mentioned, you are one of donald trump's top contenders to be vice president. i've heard from sources that really they believe it's down to you and to senator jd vance of ohio. of course, the caveat trump could could change his mind. but when you look at the ticket and we look at vice presidential selections in the past joe biden helped barak obama with foreign policy inexperience. mike pence help donald trump with evangelicals kamala harris, black voters, women voters for president biden. what would you bring to a trump ticket specifically well, i think we have to just look at the fact that president trump can win this race regardless of who is vice president is he's got the luxury of not having to pick someone. >> i think if we actually look in political history the last time a vice president will pick actually helps swing an election was when kennedy picked lyndon johnson and lyndon johnson help kennedy win that race. with president trump right now, where he is with hispanics, with blacks, with people under age 30. and with independence. i mean, he's very strong across the board, so he can pick some when that you can focus on like, hey, let's, let's get someone gets stuff done. let's get someone who helps him govern. he doesn't have to make a choice like some of the others names that you cited where maybe they needed a blend to actually get the electorial block. what would you bring to the ticket specifically if you're if you're on it, would it be your business experience? you talked about governing? what is it specific? why should you pick you basically? >> well, i think that's that's a reupped president trump. president trump understands the criteria that he wants. he's going to make that choice at the time he makes it. he's got a lot of great choices and i think everybody everybody, the whole country, maybe knows my background, which is both both success in business and success as in the executive branch has governing. but that's his choice on what the criteria that he wants. again, when we've got this big week and the big debate going this week, nobody is really thinking about the vp thing this week, and we should really be focusing on how was joe biden going to defend his record on an open border? i mean, we take a look at what's happening in our country with with the migrant crime that's happening, whether it's teenage girls, whether it's mother, of five, or whether it's young women, college age women. we've got we've got an issue with an open border and joe biden needs to answer why he why he keeps insisting on having this open borders you're one of trump's busiest surrogates. >> i mean, you make arguments like that, right? there are multiple times on cable news, obviously, you do a lot of the sunday shows you're, you're here today. do you think that your best position to serve on his ticket? >> i think that question is up to president trump what we decided when we decide is watching right now, what's your argument to him, i guess, for why you would be a good choice? >> well, that could be a conversation between president trump in myself but i think right now i'm doing what i think that every buddy that cares about the futures countries should be doing, which is understanding that if you care about inflation, which is, which is hurting income producing low-income people the most because it's affecting food price of energy rice electricity, the american dream is being killed by high interest rates. >> housing costs have gone up by over 30%. if you care about that stuff, then you should be out campaigning for president trump. and there is no, there is no expectation that catherine and i have on this thing about about some job and the administration or anything else. we're doing this because i know that our state of north dakota can't take four more years of joe biden, and that translates to the rest of the country. and that's your, that's your the first lady of north dakota that you're referring to there. have you you said that conversation is between the two of you. >> have you had that conversation with trump? that's that process is up to president trump and that's where that conversation should say. >> if you are selected to be on the ticket, would you be? willing to go into your own personal wealth to help fund the campaign like you did with your presidential run. >> again, i think all of that is if we're asked, we'll see what happens. but right now, there's something that's i think that everybody knows anybody that's out there knocking on doors volunteering and making phone calls like the people i've met in michigan in minnesota in virginia, and north carolina, and nevada there's something more important than writing a check. there's people that are actually out there talking to their neighbors and saying, here's why i'm supporting president trump. they're giving of their time. that's their irrevocable gift that they're doing. and we've been getting a lot of our time the last six months. and i think that's what we're seeing, the energy we see on the ground is people that maybe don't have but dimed to give. they don't have ten bucks to give. but some of these people are donated present trump, which is terrific, but they're also giving out in volunteering their time. and that's that's how that's how this race, the race is going to be won and lost by the energy the voters, and the numbers. >> and seeing that, especially the fundraising we've been tracking that. but you mentioned any other jobs if you're not offered the vice presidential selection, would you accept a cabinet position again, there's a conversation. >> the president but right now, i think i've been clearly clear with everybody along. i've was a private sector guy. i was in the private sector up until the day that president trump got elected we got elected on the same night back in november of 2016 and there's lots of ways in the private sector that you can have an impact to move this country forward, particularly with ai right now, because there's an opportunity for us to take 20% of the cost out of government across the whole nation, but only if we've got the power-based to run a hey we're killing our electrical base at a time when we're an arms race with china and if we will future of our country, the future of our economy depends on us being great at innovation, innovation greatness is always driven our country four, and now we're at risk of destroying that because of the climate extremes that are, that want to shut down our power grid in america. >> okay, that sounds like a node to a cabinet position, but we'll see how this plays out. >> governor, it's great to have you. thank you for joining us here on caitlin up next is president biden losing enthusiasm from women voters with the new york democratic governor kathy hochul here to talk about those latest numbers. plus both sides playing the expectations game ahead of thursday's debate will talk about it with our top political experts right after a quick break it's so easy to get your windshield replaced using safe flight until the people i haven't done it already. >> my man, let's start off as a ship and grew to a crack and it just keeps going so what do we do now? 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>> i want to see him recreate the magic that we all saw unfold during this day of the unit of address i was there. i could not believe the electric trinity way over performing expectations and because he has such a clear vision for this country where he wants to take us in the next term, building on what he's done already, investing in families and infrastructure and standing up for women's rights they week, just as we mentioned, the anniversary, he should lean heart into the fact that now one out of three american women live with an abortion ban. that is directly correlated to donald trump's promise. one of the few promises he kept was the overturn roe v wade. and as a result, we have women that are suffering that are driving hundreds of miles for an abortion that are emergency or is being denied health care when their own lives are on the line. that's what we have now. so president biden should remind everybody who did this to american women. >> yeah, we just talked to kate cox last week, obviously the woman who had to flee texas to get an abortion. but when you talk about how women voters are looking at this, this race overall, there's a new kaiser family foundation poll that shows six and ten women are not satisfied with their choices for president, roughly three and ten independent women and black women say that they are less motivated to vote, than usual. i mean, if those women don't turn out in november, are you worried that it's going to hurt president biden? they're going to turn out and here's why. >> there is still a long way before that voting takes place in november. this is when the biden campaign has a chance to build the campaign, have constant reminders mostly in the fall. let's, let's admit this. people are focused right now on heat waves and the olympics coming. and there's a lot of other things, but the american people and women are particularly really focus after the kids get back to school that be focused on this and who's gonna take care of the future for their children? what kind of future do they want for their little children today? and they're young adults, children. what are we leaving them? >> chaos? well, we're going to have a stable democracy. we're going to descend into a dictatorship where uphold the values that have always defined us for over 250 years. so that's the choice that women will be coming to a net w's and signing with joe biden and the end, do you think he's being explicit enough on abortion? note me, he often doesn't even say the word abortion. he is a lifelong devout catholic cuz own views on the issue of changed. >> should he be saying the word abortion? >> should he be speaking about it more explicitly in your view, i think donald trump all he can say about as abortions i took away the woman's right to choose that is, that is his talking point. he can't go anywhere else. i stack the supreme court with people i knew were hostile to women's rights that my mother this generation fought for that or not there for my daughter's generation. and i want them back for my granddaughters generations, so he doesn't have to say a lot about it because everybody knows who stole that right from american women. but that's part of his agenda talking about how we protect women's rights. but there's a lot of other family issues as well. >> yeah. and obviously this all goes back to the supreme court and we've seen a raft of decisions coming from them in recent days, just on friday, they upheld a law, a federal law that bans domestic abusers from owning firearms. and it came after, right after. >> and i know that's a very personal issue for you. your mom worked a lot when it came to it didn't domestic abuse and where awareness and fighting that. but it came after then we saw them strike down a ruling on banning bump stocks. and after that, president biden said the supreme court was out of kilter. >> when you look at those two different rulings, i wonder how you view it is the supreme court fool you. >> absolutely. i mean, they are so out of touch, there are literally living in the 1700s. i mean, they go back to what our founding fathers said about guns at a time when we had muskets, we didn't have bump stocks. we didn't have machine guns. we didn't have the capacity of a mass shooting that deals, the lives of people in my hometown of buffalo or that killed so many at a gathering of young people, a west at a concert so the world has changed since the 1700s. i know the supreme court doesn't want to believe that they're trapped in the past, but this is what donald trump gave us. but american people they will, the fever's going to break. i really feel this. we're going to realize what's at stake when they realized donald trump is cozying up to dictators. he is envious them. he wants that ability to mass power. and we have fought so hard to preserve our democracy. we think about what benjamin franklin said back in the 17, 87, he was asked, is this a monarchy or republic going for, as we build this young nation? he said it's a republic. if you can keep it this november election will determine whether we are able to keep this republic and not have it descended to a dictatorship as has fallen so many other countries that's what's on the line. it's everything, it's everything we stand for as americans. so people will understand, women will understand it. they'll be reminded of rights that their mom said they don't have anymore. >> well, those are quite a grave stakes, but i won't ask you about something you've done here in new york that is notable because it's the first in the nation kind of a law that we've seen regulated in social media algorithms and essentially it, you want to make social media platforms less addictive and to expand privacy protections display content chronologically to children who are under 18. and when you look at that, some opponents of that have said that it violates the first amendment. what's your response to that? >> our children come first. i'm sorry. you can be a parent or a grandparent, or a anti-mongol. you cannot turn a blind eye to trauma that is being inflicted in our children, especially young teenagers today a seminal point in their lives and it's being bombarded with intensely addictive algorithms to pull them into a dark space and hold them captive. >> and you think it'll hold up in court? absolutely. we're defining this in a way that we know will be upheld, that our children, we're not saying children can't go to social media sites. they can. this simply says that parents have the right to say, number one, you cannot be collecting personal data about my child and selling it to other people. so they can then develop these algorithms that hit them with something they're interested in. but it is, i have to tell you, i've had so many forms with young people sitting with them, a young woman once said to me, you have to save us from ourselves. we can't stop. and i thought it's not her fault. these companies are monetizing our children's mental health. they're taking away from them. and if we don't stand up as a government and his parents, the first mom governor of new york, i'm going to make sure that we fight for our kids and it's interesting to hear you say, you do believe it'll stand up in court. the other thing happening here in new york on tuesday, one of the most hotly contested democratic primaries in the nation that i think we've seen it pits and the squad member, jamaal bowman, a progressive against his opponent, latimer, who is seen as a much more middle of the road and obviously, aipac has been super funding. this campaign. it's been so much money poured into it, and i want you to listen to jamaal bowman lashing out at apac yesterday and all of those millions of dollars that they have spent against him get your shane he also accused his opponent of supporting genocide do you support that kind of language? >> are you okay with that? >> let me say this as the leader of the democratic party in the state of new york i am not weighing in on primaries intentionally, but what i'm very focused on is what number one i stand strongly with israel went israel after october 7, it is traumatizing still to see the images of women who were raped and just what the country endured we can move forward after this election and fight to save the house representatives. take it from the hands of republic blinken's this november. so i'll be focusing all my energy on our six battleground seats here in the state of new york, long island, hudson valley, over to syracuse. this is for all the stakes we need that count when number one, we need them to support joe biden. we need them to support the comprehensive immigration plan that funds more resources at the border. we need that and we need a democratic congress when it came, jeffries as speaker, to get that done without endorsing anyone. the language itself, he's he's saying that he's supporting a genocide in gaza. it's quite strong language. we have heard this all over. i i think the tone of discourse and many elections has been far exceeds what i think is appropriate on all sides. so i'll just put that out. i think that's inappropriate. i think that we should stop calling names. i think we should talk about the issues that people here in the state of new york care about. they want us to stand strong and have a sensible comp, common sense immigration, but they want mr. pass, a ban on bump stocks. they want to make sure that we can do whatever we can to protect women's rights. they want to do it we can on affordability. those are the issues. and in all the districts, recount congressional races are being held that's what people care about. we should not be tone deaf to what's actually happening at people's kitchen tables. at their social gatherings, stop being tone deaf as a party overall to those issues. and that's what joe biden, his his strength. he understands innately. he comes from working class people as do i donald trump is so out of touch, siding with billionaires over the working men and women who put their faith in him. they thought he was one of them that he understood them. and my gosh they understand now that they were fooled at the time and they will not be fooled again debit or hochul. thank you for joining us this morning. thank you great to have you my next guest has experienced debating donald trump. it's former governor scott walker, along with david axelrod. what they expect, what are they watching for on thursday, we'll talk about that next. >> before i would ever give a product to a patient, i tried on myself, so i started taking super beach fan. i said, wow, super beats is a game changer. >> it's given me the energy that i want the blood pressure support that i need to collation heart-healthy for you? 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x marks the spot. now you can add the new xfinity streamsaver™ that includes netflix, peacock, and apple tv+. that's xfinity streamsaver™ for just $15 a month. all your favorites. all in one place. only from xfinity. for more watching and less spending... x marks the spot. do it all on the network made for streaming, and bring on the good stuff. perfect fit. now, comfort looks good celebrate. >> go forwards in america. thursday, july 4, they've 70s dirt on see it in maybe a bedroom up losing the debate. i'll make sure he says, i'll lose it. the debate on purpose. maybe i'll do something like that. i assume he's gonna be somebody that will be a worthy debater. should i be tough for nasty and just say you're the worst president in history or should i be nice and calm? and let him speak well, find out which tacky takes on thursday night. >> welcome back to state of the union. that is donald trump tting expectations ahead of the debate. i want to talk about that now with former wisconsin governor scott walker and also cnn, senior political commentator, david the axelrod david, i mean, just after what we've seen from from people like doug burgum moved, described biden is infirm and as a weak debater from others. and donald trump himself saying he can't put two sentences together what do you make of how trump it is changing his tune in, trying to say, yeah, you biden will be better than i think well, it's been fun to watch because he spent two really more than two years, really the last five describing biden as utterly and competent to the point where if biden arrives and leaves under his own power, that would be a triumph given the definition that trump has put and his followers have put on him. >> and i think they've recognized in the last couple of weeks whoa, this guy is going to he's going to exceed those expectations and we'd better start creating a rationale for him having a decent night yeah. >> and governor, when you look at that, i mean, you were on the debate stage for trump back in and 2015 and when you hear him saying asking the crowd, should he be tough and nasty and his words or nice and calm? i mean, what do you, what donald trump do you think we will see on thursday night? >> well, donald trump's of fighter, i saw that firsthand. there's no doubt about it. but if he's a fighter for you, it makes a difference. so the best thing he can do, and i think it's particularly good under the cnn format, he gets to talk president biden gets to talk. they can't interrupt each other. i think that was a big mistake. he made four years ago president trump should just look into the camera and talk about what he's gonna do to fight for everyday americans to make life more affordable, secure again and safe again contrast that with the failures of president biden and just ignore president biden when it comes to the physically being in the debate, i think that would go a long way from and we'll see if you can do that. >> well, david axelrod, when it comes to president biden, he prepares so intensively for big moments. i mean, he did it with the state of the union. he's done it for big addresses like on the anniversary of january 6, and he's been in debate prep now for a few days at camp david, what about for him, which president biden do we see on thursday night? for which president biden do we need to see on thursday night listen, caitlin, let's just take a step back and ask, why is this a close race? >> and it is a close race and the governor's sitting in one of the very toughest of battleground states. it's a close race because there are large number of people who have questions about both of them from the questions about the president, go do his age and does he have the stamina and the acuity to control events? the question about trump is whether he can control himself and whether he can be controlled. and each of them have something to prove on that debate stage. it's obvious the president has to come out and has to be aggressive and engaged and energetic and take every opportunity to create a contrast between himself and trump on the issues that people care about that go to there future and because no president in the modern age can win a referendum and you have to turn it into a choice. trump would like it to be a referendum on biden for trump, the governor's quite right. it was a disaster last election. and you remember this well, kaitlan, that first debate when he came across as a kind of petulant, mean-spirited child and i'm sure he's getting advice from his advisers saying, do not be that guy, try and reassure people that you have the self-control and decency to be president. the question is, can he do it under the provocation of the president's comments? questions that will be tough for both of them. i'm sure it'll be really interesting to see what and govern your trump is not doing formal debate prep in this sense where someone is playing biden and he's at a lectern and we don't president biden is doing that. he did it in 2020. we were told is that a mistake if trump doesn't switch actually start doing formal debate prep, not just kinda talking about policy meetings and such that he is having well, i certainly did it when i was governor preparing for some of these other debates in the primaries. but i think he's a natural, the most important thing does remember, i think all the media are overwhelming amounts to the media will come out and say that president biden exceeded expectations. they'll talk about energy had the well rehearsed answers. but in the end, young america's foundation, for example, we just came out of the field with a pole and college students, not just everyday american voters, but to college students specifically said they're number one issue is the economy, no matter how well rehearsed the answers are joe biden can answer for why prices have gone up 20% during his, during his presidency, he's going to have real troubles and the best thing that president trump can do is talk about what he's gonna do to make america affordable again, as well as securing the border and make our communities particularly a big city safe again, be does that it won't matter what the spin is? after the debate, who went over swing voters in states like mine and wisconsin well, what about i mean, you've mentioned in the economy. >> it is a top issue, but his whole this week also said democracy was a top issue, david, and obviously that's one of the weaker points for former president trump, given what happened with the 2020 election yeah listen, i think elections are about the future and i think that the president needs to paint a picture of what the future would like be like under him. >> and specifically on cost of living issues, on health care, on pharmaceuticals, on others where president trump has a pretty negative record that can be attacked, but also on abortion rights, on democracy issues. it's really a question of what kind of country you want. and i think they're onto the right question when they say do you want to president who is going to work for you every single day? in fact, hey, for you every single day or a president wakes up every day thing about how he's going to fight for himself and i think that's a real vulnerability for trump. but caitlin, let me just say a couple of things. one is one of the traps for incumbent presidents and these first debates are always, always hard for presences. there is an instinct to want to defend and extol their own records that that is a waste of time. here are obviously he should talk about what he's done. but history will judge his presidency right now. he's going after voters and i think being very much in the moment on the issues creating contrast is what he has to do. the second is not everybody. the voters who are up for grabs here are the least engaged voters. it's not clear they're going to watch the debate more likely they're gonna get it from, from social media. so there has been awareness of creating moments since i can go viral yeah, it will be interesting to see if you see the full picture of the debate governor, what or what your final thoughts on on what to watch for thursday night yeah i think david's write about people wanted to talk about the future. they want to fighter. that's the key, the advice i've given the president trump is just look right into the camera. remember there's no audience in place there. they audiences just the people watching at home. and those that watch subsequently, as david said on social media tell the american people why you're going to fight for them, spell out how you're going to make things more affordable, more safe and more secure phi does those things and gives answers and then let president biden tried to defend his failed record, but talk about how things are it'd be better in the future. then the fighter in him actually is a benefit did you say you have given him that advice or you're just giving it to him right now and tv no. >> i actually wrote a column saw on the other de i'm as co-chair of the wisconsin leadership team along with governor thompson is centered johnson. so my hope is that you'll do just that and if he does, it'll be a success. >> we'll see what it looks like. thanks. do you both david axelrod, governor scott walker, it is the earliest presidential debate ever. the question is, could it shake up the race of it? 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>> listen, i hope it looks a lot like the second debate, which we're not highlighting here. we're president trump really good well and by all accounts, won that debate handily. but the problem was nobody was watching the second debate because the first debate, president trump was talking over biden wasn't letting him make his point. i think the president if former president trump were smart, he would just say the crowd, are you better off now you were four years ago and then just let joe biden talk. just let him talk. don't try to overstep. let him try to make his case because he hasn't record of defend a four year so if i was that's what i do here. what michael says, i mean, he he acts like donald trump is disciplined like that. >> that's not going to happen. donald trump is not going to stay on message. he's gonna be decently way. >> what we know about this debate though, is that the expectation level for joe biden is extremely low. >> it's extremely low because republicans set the bar inhale for him day in and day out when they call him and firm when they inhale that is low as low as the bar can be. and so when they talk about the fact he has tennis balls on his walkers and things like this. that the fact is if he comes out and presents himself as presidential and not worry about defending your record as much. i've always told anybody who would listen at the white house, the biggest issue people have with joe biden when i'm out in the streets, is that he doesn't articulate a vision for the future and that actually is being captive in age because it's hard for someone 81-years-old to articulate a vision for future. they might not be a part of if he's able to do that well, then we'll see what happens. >> jamaal, i mean, you worked in the white house. >> what is that? do they know that? do they recognize that while they're huddling at camp david right now, they are talking about the future what i'm worried about it, they're not talking specifically enough about the future. i can't tell you exactly which policy to finish the agenda that they are really basing this on. but my sense about the debate is the first 30 minutes is really what matters right here, right? because if you think about what happened last time, will you shut up, man, happened in the first 20 minutes. in the second and debate the biden win after trump on him shirking responsibility for covid talked about turning a crisis into a tragedy that was in the first ten minutes. i think after that, people will start to tune out. now for president and biden one more piece of advice because this is still a physical visual medium he's kinda got resting old face right so you need so he needs to smile and when he smiles, it goes away a little bit. give me smiles, his face come to live. i would just save their practicing this practice violin as he smile. >> 80-year-old let's just see how much of this and this will be a lot on the moderators. but again, these aren't necessarily the two most disciplined candidates is actually on substance because there's a world in which this turns into re-litigating january 6, talking about a weaponized doj, donald trump rehashing the things he's enraged about, and there is an undecided portion of the public that wants to hear what does that vision for the future? why should i be with you and not the other guy for the six and ten americans who didn't want this rematch. so i think that's gonna be a big thing to lean into, but also, we know this. i think there actually will be a lot of eyeballs on this debate because there are people who are just like in it for the spectacle. but we'll be watching for the zeitgeist. mom moments like what lives on tiktok, what lives on facebook? afterward. that's where young people, especially a young undecided voters, are going to make up book, book president trump last i, former president trump in philadelphia was on message was energized at what he wasn't re-litigating the past, who's talking about his record, but immigration about crime, but no matter the time about things that matter about things i did bring up but no but things that matter to the electorate at large, right? he was in north philadelphia, only 5% of people within five miles of that arena lasa i voted for trump, 5%. he was in enemy territory asking for votes. i mean, he's gonna campaign, he's gonna get paid for every vote. america, bravo, it's black votes. and he's not gonna win the day hey, but if he wins a little bit, if he wins 20% of african americans in pennsylvania, hispanics, right? it's not doing less don't know. that's what you're hoping for because he was not to you the territory's also color black neighborhood in terms of voter turnout, when 95% of the people vote against ship, those aren't your friends. >> i just think, look, this debate is in atlanta, georgia. >> it's a spectacle. people are like they are hoping to see the combativeness. and i think the format of this is going to be something that breeds substance step substance it's the format of this and the moderators are going to have a substantive debate now, also, i think we all know, i think we're fooling ourselves if we believe this debate is going to move the needle one way or another i think people already are. i think people fill away about donald trump. they fill away about joe biden. people want to, they're looking at this debate for affirmation tobias. they want to see, they want to see if donald trump could be presidential. they want to see if joe biden can meet that standard. the other thing that it means that your point about the age of both candidates, because people like donald trump, 870 7-years-old, two is at 9:00 this debate is really late. and i think a great hour. i don't know what all the best tv is on at 9:00. sorry, living. >> there. they're prepping him at game time. right. so you might have you got to gain time so that they're in a cycle of knowing what this looks like for 90 minutes at 9:00 pm. and there's one thing that we haven't talked about. we might have a supreme court decision on thursday, right. a couple of them below the entire debate coverage, like really up, you have a water balloon full of kerosene that lands on this debate. that can either happen thursday and now they've sent it to friday, could happen friday. so we may decision on immunity, which would be huge what. about the audience? the lack of an audience, trump was complaining about the rules which he agreed to yesterday in philadelphia. does it help him? does it hurt him for either candidate? so i oddly think no audience helps trump. i think he feeds off of an audience in place to it and gets into the more bombastic mindset where he's bound to shout out a domestic terrorist organization like he did in the past i actually think this could benefit him in terms of trying to be a little bit more presidential and structured i do worry for biden on the energy. i'm he got through the state of the union, but that was a hometown crowd cheering for him. it's right off of a teleprompter. this is quiet. nobody is telling you you did a good job. nunes the plotting for you and to keep the energy going for 90 minutes, it's a lot. yeah, it's gonna be interesting last night at the rally bucaram point. so trump asked the crowd, should i behave, and people like boom. he said, i should not be nice to joe biden behavior, should i be bob as the crowd was saying go at joe biden, bring it hard, right? 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