Transcripts For CNNW Laura 20240704

Fani willis is not disqualified from prosecuting donald trump and his codefendants. But the judge, he didnt just issue a ruling judge mcafee issued an ultimatum either. She goes or nathan wade goes nathan wade went. And if youd thought robert hurs one line throwing some shade at President Biden was savage while judge mcafee is order hardly had any sunlight when it came to willis and wade, although there were moments that he recognized that the burden had not been met to show that they in fact, had a Conflict Of Interests that made a fair trial impossible. Theres one particular quote, georgia law does not permit the finding of an actual conflict for simply making bad choices. In repeatedly all the scrutiny of fani willis and nathan wade and their relationship who live where when who paid for what how an all it went down. It all threatens to overshadow throat knee of what this case is actually about. Let me remind you for a second. Weve already been through the hearing and trial about the personal now, how about what is alleged in the indictment the alleged efforts by the then president of the United States and his codefendants to overturn the 2020 election of one President Joe Biden you think im on trial . These people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. Im not on trial no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. Well, Finding Willis says shes not on trial, by the way. She was not on trial criminally, but it didnt seem like she was non trial during those hearings. But she is prosecuting now in this trial. So why is that distinction so important . Well, look, the court of Public Opinion is weighing her relationship with nathan way and theyre also wang this decision by the judge and now theyre wearing her credibility in this extremely consequential case. Thats the court of Public Opinion. Meanwhile, a jury in the court of law will weigh the charges against donald trump and 14 codefendants, four of them, by the way way of the original 18, theyve already pleaded guilty. Now the charges they include filing false documents, violation of the georgia rico act conspiracy, and influencing witnesses. So the question tonight, of course, is which case well weigh heavier in those scales of justice because if lady justice is blind, well, she certainly heard a whole lot. Did she not . I wanted to talk for now to tiffany, right . Im so glad that you are here because in this ruling today, judge scott mcafee called fani willis testimony. At one point, dramatic, and of course, unprofessional and i say the words, of course only because im recalling what he said, not attributing that to truth, but when you saw all of this play out, tiffany i dont know about you, but my chats were going off watching the trial, watching the testimony, remembering all that was going on. How did you see this judges approach to evaluating this . I thought his comment about her performance during the hearing vein unprofessional. Its interesting in one sense. I cant say i disagreed with that. Watching it in isolation, it may come across that way. But i think we should apply the same standards, two similar conduct we have seen other people when faced with charges that they think are unfair and they think its warranted to defend themselves. They come in and they do so stridently so the question for me is, why are we applying a different standard . Are looking at her with a different lens and i think part of it is shes a black woman who walked into court and said, im not bowing my head. Im going to look at you and your eye. You called for me. Im here and i want to address what you are saying about me and i think its ridiculous. I think some of it may appear unprofessional, but some of it was warranted because at the core, the legal claim there, mr. Trump was making was ridiculous and this was really an attack on her character in some sense, theres the two lenses. One can look at it on the one hand, theres the lens of someone being attacked in the way she was. The other, of course, being that they were trying to file a motion to get the result they wanted, then theres the third aspect of it, right . The idea that youre talking about the death by 1,000 cuts for credibility. But it strikes me as particularly interesting that her statements on the stand became a kind of inkblot tests, right . You would hear someone describe how she reacted and the way in which some called it combative and a pejorative sense, other called a combative. And they were praising that very notion. When you look at the audience of people, she is an elected official. Shes not unknown that people are Fulton County does that impact it for you at all . The judge pointed this out in his opinion today that the voters will have some say about it later this year. And i think thats absolutely correct for me what this speaks to is going to what you said about how this really isnt inkblot test, right . Who you are determines how you saw this, right. And i did see people who saw it when ways that this is an unprofessional woman, how dare she speak this way . And then for me though, as a black woman having been called unprofessional or being combative when im just being assertive and defending myself thats what i saw in it. And so i want to separate the bad choices and i think we all can agree that there was some bad choices here as a lawyer, you should not engage in sexual relationships with people who are connected in your cases in any way . So she has to take the macapa on that. In the other sense, she was hard before a court forced to answer questions about her personal relationships when the core of the legal claim was really always ridiculous. She did not have a financial or pecuniary interest in the outcome of this or in the way it was handled. And thats what mr. Trump would have had to prove in order to win his legal claim and all of the other parts of it was a little bit at the utricle, was interesting as well, is as somebody who is an elected official you know, as youre talking about the different standards and the different double standards at seven instances. What would be expected of how she was supposed to respond versus how she did. I kept saying during the actual trial, had can you imagine . Jack smith some taking the stand and added to answer questions about his sexual life, his personal life, his romantic relationship. Might say, well, youre not doing it because maybe he was not engaged in any of those things, laura and therefore, thats why its shot in her own foot. But the attack specifically against Finding Willis and the georgia case feels very personal in a different way. Do you think so absolutely. I cannot imagine jack smith, even if he had engaged in this conduct even if he had been accused of something that was inappropriate to be put on a stand, an ax questions about his personal entanglements and relationships down to the detail, how much money did you exchange when when the focus of the legal claim was did you have a financial stake in the outcome or the conduct of this legal proceeding . And the answer to that was always know, nobody believes theyre fani willis brought this case because of a financial interest in it. Nobody believes that shes conducting it in a way to make money off of it. And so if there is no basis to the legal claim i cant imagine a judge allowing that spectacle to have proceeded in the way that it did against ms willis. The judge did not buy that discussion that she suddenly was trying to maintain or sustain relationship because she wanted to benefit from it and click including the pace at which she started to have the trial to avoid severing, separating the different different defendants will which are prolonged. Everything really quick. I want you to answer because youve been a law clerk for the Supreme Court, Justice Sonia sotomayor we know Supreme Court justices are known for the dictum, the things they are supposed to address, and then the rest theyre actually wanting to address. There was some dictum here in the sense that he got went beyond just the ruling in this case, he could have just said, youre not disqualified. And nathan wade has to go are you have to go he went into professionalism and beyond. Was that inappropriate to you or appropriate . There was a lot of diktat here and theres always this debate about when dicta is appropriate and when its not i thought some of it. The comments about her professionalism. I thought that maybe that was fair game. I think actually calling out the election was to me seemed a bit inappropriate. This is a legal opinion. Its not a place to explicitly in both politics and this way that part. I thought when a little bit too far, but there was certainly a lot of dicta that did not have any legal weight tiffany, right . Always a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much. In his ruling today, judge. Scott mcafee said a lot of things read through eddie called fani willis is dramatic testimony on the stand, while the war we were talking about that he used unprofessional this would they kolas to me that you lied on monday and yet here we still are. Thats one of your lives. Youve been intrusive into peoples personal lives. Youre confused. Im not on trial no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. No, no, no, no. This isnt true, judge. And good. Luck. So what is the court of Public Opinion . Think about all of this. Well, lets ask the jurors and our virtual courtroom to weigh in on the judges ruling Finding Willis stays on the case against donald trump, but is forced to lose special prosecutor nathan wade of the scrutiny over their romantic the relationship will do our jurors agree, and they think race or gender played a role. Weve got four jurors here, Everyday Americans meeting tonight for the first time to share their opinions with each other. And of course with you. Now this is not a court of law our jurors are not rendering a verdict, but they will tell us what they think of todays ruling and give us some insight and a window into the court of Public Opinion. Im glad that youre all here today. Thank you so much. Let me begin because the judge did say to fani willis that she could stay on the case are not disqualified qualify, but it came at a cost. The removal of nathan wade by a Show Of Hands. Which of you agreed with the decision for her not to be disqualified . All of you. So lets unpack that a little bit more here as to why well, when you think about the reasoning by this judge said so they said they did not meet the bar of proving that there was going to be a prejudice against the defendants. What was the most important aspect to you evaluating a juror for youre nodding your head well, when we look at this case, whos really on trial at the end of the day and if were going to establish ethical standards, ethical standards need to be applied not only to fani, a fani willis, but to everyone that has a position of political power whether that be formal or informal. Interesting, youre nodding along. Yeah, because well want to look at it and whats been happening. It wasnt really about because it also has been there was a whats the wearing of interests, Conflict Of Interest when it was only putting her life on display. So never wants that they make the case that it was a Conflict Of Interests. And like she told him, im not on trial. They dont forget about it. And then i hear some people say, well maybe if she would had just in the beginning said, yeah, we got cool, but i hand in the cookie jar. Okay. Okay. When i left it there probably because shes a black woman that they wouldnt left it there. And because trump, in the kind of people that he associate with, they wouldnt go leave it there because they are whole idea is to try to have the case dismissed so the us think that race and her gender played a role in how people perceived her professionalism absolutely how i think even when she went to defend herself, i think they tried to paint the narrative of the angry black woman and she has a da of, i believe, the biggest county in georgia so how they painted her narrative, i think it was hard for her to give her truth under oath without it already being a shadow of her race on her. But interesting, so one of the things that the judge spoke about was that he perceived her as unprofessional on the sand when she was speaking to the attorney who is leading the disqualification, did you see her behavior, her demeanor as unprofessional or passionate . And i think it depends on whos calling unprofessional. Weve seen many cases of things that dont necessarily meet rr. And again, it just indicates that theres a changing standard. But who is the one to truly define it . And theres subjectivity there. What do you think it felt more like passion to me. It felt like frustration and that she was just trying to display how disheartened she was that this was going to be happening to her. And how much she wanted to show this is not this is not really what were supposed to be talking about. This is not the issue at hand. Yeah. There was a moment that she spoke at a Church In Georgia and there was a lot of conversations around what she said. She was talking to a congregation. They were prepared remarks. That was an issue that it seemed going to be excise, forethought lemon. Listen, let me let you all hear what she had to say and then ill ask you what you thought of that moment. Listen one white brutal in a great boom in ohio, one black man another superstar, a green flame and a great boeing lord, they dont be mad when oh, my own is first thing they say oh, she gone play the race card now. But no the race card very much played into the statements by at least one of the attorneys interpreting what she had to say about that moment. How did you perceive her statements . Theyre made before . If a trial they were public. How did you perceive that moment . One thing she would just express and how she feels and what was happening with her. I think trying to get ahead of it. Yeah. I think she was trying to get ahead of it. I think she knew that it was coming. Im the undertones were already there before this trial soon as soon as it was announced, which she was going to do the racial undertones were there the threats were there. So once this came up, i think she tried to get ahead of it because she knew what was coming and its easy for them to say, oh, shes playing the race card when theyve had colleagues that look like them and have done this for years. So they do not know her to experience. So why cant we give her the benefit of it . Doubt for sharing from her perspective, the benefit of the doubt was not part of the calculus that you heard, at least at this particular hearing. But what you did here, a lot of was about the nature of the relationship between herself and nathan wade, particularly as related to cash, the element of Cash Reimbursements going dutch, or just keeping cash on hand a lot was made at bat. I wonder how each of you saw that moment. Der ultimately, she tried to demonstrate that shes making her own case, that its not about its about the financial Conflict Of Interest, but there wasnt enough proof to demonstrate that there was a financial contract Conflict Of Interests. How do you see it . No. I like what she said. Number one, in back, people in the foul deed keep money, and your parents, when he went out with a gentleman, david, tell you keep money if something happened as you can get home on your own. And then i love how she said a man is not a plane. You know what i mean . So she was standing up for right . They for companionship and so im thinking if shes making all this money and hes making good money, why does she have to use this money . Well, i couldnt like she said, share the money let me get a Show Of Hands from each of you because part of the conversation is that the jury pool that will eventually here this case, when it gets to that point in time, will be much more interests state and distracted by what youve seen through this trial and the evidence at hand by a show of error does not go down the line. Actually, you can just say, will you as a juror in this case, be influenced by now knowing about this particular aspect of the trial, yes or no . I would not no. No. No. Thats interesting. I think many people are wondering if that would in fact be the case. The fact that shes an elected official, does that have an impact on how you view her . I think for anyone that isnt leadership, there needs to be some sort of wisdom. So are there lessons to be learned . Absolutely. But to the detriment of a career, absolutely not. And ys question for you all there were statements made about whether they were truthful on the stand or that they were not credible in some aspects before the judge. Does the does the statements made by the prosecutors in this case impact the way you would see how they present evidence in a trial . Yes or no no. No. According to the media, is today, but according to media, yes. But according to the media, you dont know because at the end of the day, when we talk about the truthfulness, is interesting when we look at all the parties that are at play. And so is there one thats better than the other . I dont think . It would be . A fair comparison because for this, it was personal to her so i dont think it would be fair to compare wish she would do to continue to do in the courtroom because this was specific to her with her personal life. This went beyond her role in the courtroom so for me, as youre four things, for me, would be a no, but i can see the Public Opinion to being a little different. I also agree its two separate cases. Yeah. And thats what im saying. Its important that we separate the two as they are distinct and have two different important roles to play thank you so much to hear your insight was really invaluable to me and i think very illuminating for so many people, especially thanks to our grand jury or a jury tonight, i called you grant because you want if youd like to be a juror on the next court of Public Opinion gain touch with us by filling out the form you can access by scanning that qr code you see on your screen or email. Laura coates, jury at cnn. Com um, that despite all of the made for tv drama, theres still a case to be tried here. And it may end up being one of the most important cases. Im all of all the criminal cases against donald trump. 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Judge glenda hatchett. Judge hatchett, im so happy that you are here today. Thank you so much for joining us. Of course, i had been waiting to hear what this ruling is as im sure you have as well. You know, fani willis professionally, very well. What do you think will happen now Going Forward . I think shell be focused. I think that she will continue to be very intentional about this ive read as you might imagine, you know me well, ive read every single line, every word in this order and i think that it is the right decision. She should not have been disqualified. Theres no basis in the defendants. Did not carry their burden of proof. And its absurd to think that she would be somehow orchestrating all of this for her own benefit none of that none of that is true. And so i think that she will be very intentional. I think shell be very focused and continue with the job that she has been elected to do. Judge hatchett, when you look at the decision versus the conversations are the statements that were made by this judge that really impugn or credibility her professionalism did the judge need to go there . I dont think theres a judge needed to go all the way there. I dont we have to remember that there are some opinions he may dictate in this written order. The he issued today, but the bottom line is that she was not disqualified and there was no finding that she should be disqualified. I do think that the decision four way to resign was probably an appropriate one. Because i think that we need to try to clear some of the clutter and some of the noise around this case. And i think that that should move aggressively now to be tried well, heres resignation. Do you think cure the case because the judge seems to think that there was based on the appearance of Conflict Of Interests and some of the statements that were made that it could potentially harm the opportunity for if not a fair trial, at least how the public would proceed. This saying a jury pool does this now cure what actions taken may have hurt the case . I dont know that it will absolutely. Sure. All the clutter and the discussion in the Public Opinion, what i do know are two things. One is this case was rarely wellcrafted the indictment that came down the grand jury handed down, and the other thing i want to tell you, laura, very clearly is that fani willis is an excellent an excellent lawyer, an excellent District Attorney. And that there are very few das in this country and i dont think anyone will dispute this. There are very few District Attorneys in this nation with a level of expertise in bringing rico charges in a complicated case like this. Number one, the other thing is i think that there are far fewer District Attorneys who would have the tenacity and the patients and the stamina to bring this case. I think that that really speaks volumes of who she is and where we are. And i think that that is the bottom line of really what is happening with this case. And we shall see what the bottom line will be for the timing of the trial and the ultimate outcome judge glenda hatchett. Thank you so much for your insight always happy to see you, laura. Thank you for me too. Just to head cnns presentation of hbos overtime with bill maher start day with nature made the number one pharmacist recommended Vitamin Supplement brand stuffed up again. So congested, you need phi next saline from thanks. Just sine x, breathe what his brow sine x breed tax season is Hunting Season for identity thieves, which is why tax fraud was up 30 last year. 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That was barn burner metal. I want to ask this question. I wrote this one okay. So but i saw Bernie Sanders has a bill that says were going to reduce our workweek from 40 weeks to 30 to 40 hours and 32 hours. I assume this is well, of course, youre like, goodbye and with no drop in wages or benefits, is that possible . Well heres what shawn fain said about that. Everyone should listen to. And he said, the people who are making the cars, the people who are making the steel, theyre not getting paid the wages that they deserve. Its all knowing tech executives. And so how do we make sure that workers are actually benefiting if were going to have ai that automates things and then makes it that you dont have to work as many hours those gains should be going to workers and not just to executive. What do you think 32 hour week . Everyones going to love the idea of 32 hour. We just dont think you should mandated by the government in my in South Carolina my 17 yearold works in a Restaurant Making 25 an hour. He we dont need 115 minimum wage. The kids already making far more than that. Hes still in high school, and so i would rather have the Freedom And Independence of people being hello to pick the workplace that offers the best benefits for them and having the government mandated for the people, i believe in freedom. Theres the republican democrat debate. Eric, do you think Clarence Thomas . Do you think Clarence Thomas, youd have faced harsher consequences for accepting gifts from wealthy republican donors. Has the integrity of the court been compromised . I think the integrity of the court has certainly comes into question based on the conduct that we know he engaged in there needs to be an ethics standard for an ethics conduct rule of conduct for the Supreme Court that is unique in that know what we know. Justice alito also took trips. We know that justice former Justice Scalia died while he was on one of those trips. And the reality is that i think the courts legitimacy know democrat on trips, im just asking nothing where although there have been justices who apparently forced Democratic Appointed justice, who asked people to buy certain numbers of books before they wouldve read that, right . And so i think that the court itself is its legitimacy is being questioned. I think legitimately, b. On the basis of the decisions that theyve made, but also the conduct that they engage in. They are that kind of removed. I think from the normal strictures at those in the legislative branch and the Executive Branch have to go through and its why i think that justice we serve 18 year terms. They get on there. Yeah im definitely four ethics rules. I think those are good things, but i mean, im looking at senator menendez. I mean, you get guy had gold bars in cash and as mattresses or whatever and it being indicted multiple and his want to be out of the senate. Thank you for saying that i have late breaking news. He says hes going to run now as an independent or hes thinking about it. I read it an index thats, that is a big balls she doesnt have any balls, but that guy has got too big, right . Balls have to be the right size come to a bipartisan way. Not too small, not too days goodbye brass balls in my office, theyll say you deserve them where does the panel think Kate Middleton . What explains the public fascination with the royal family . Why do we care . I dont i dont know whats going on. My grandfather was with gandhi fighting for the dependence of india. Actually, when four years in jail, wow, four years in jail. So i dont get the obsession with the royal family right. On a personal basis. I dont get it were not following those on tiktok, right . You think we should care more about gundy and they we should get whereby gun the and can mandela, people who inspired this world for better what did the think of rfk junior announcing . He has picked her running mate. Oh, he did. I didnt hear i heard he was talking about Aaron Rodgers thats what hes trying. Aaron rodgers or jesse ventura. Oh, well, this has no i mean, thats yes or no this has, he has pick one, but maybe there goes your slot no, no, its why would it be me oh no, my politics, if they watched the show every week, i dont think im not crazy crazy classical, right . No, i just i just appended, right . I mean, i just dont understand why everything in this country has to always be from one extreme to the other and they dont, want . That binary choice. I think theres two types of people. Theres people who have to be right all the time. And those that just want to seek out the truth, i think most of americans just want the truth. They just want it out its got to be always some sensible middle ground between trump saying shoplifter should be shot on sight, and other people saying shoplifting is just justice, shopping. Those to me are the two sides. And then not morally equivalent no ones pretty for shoplifting is we shouldnt do anything to stop. I agree. People walk out with classic kids. Its got blue states for taking away bail and bond for murderers and rapists. I mean, like that cant be a thing either. Where are you on that . That was your own department shouldnt have bail or boundary. It should be a determination is the person is going to be a threat to the community hold that person. No person is not going to show up again. Hold that person bail or bond, discriminates against people who dont have the ability to come up with money to get themselves out of jail, and they serve time in jail. This proportion as opposed to more wealthy counterparts, look at illinois hers are getting out free. I wish the Democratic Party could be that eloquent on that issue. No. I wish you a lot of things. We usually we dont explain it. Well, its not that when you take away bill, its saying people shouldnt be in jail because report not that they shouldnt be in jail if they are a threat to society. When he said it better, but weve got to, weve got his industries a Bail Bond Industry that fights this reform and ive been against that, done it when i was ag, ive done pro bono work as a private attorney and we have been pushing back against this notion of doing bail at all. Just hold people if you think theyre going to be a threat, i tried to get him to run, but the kids said no i mean they are adams in new york. Said last week that most of the people who they arrest, ive been arrested many, many, many, many times before he said what we have is a recidivism problem. I mean, that does suggest that there is sunday Revolving Door that we have to close at some point and well show you on recidivism if even with violent offenders, when they get out of jail and they got a prison if they get therapy, they get job training and job when they get out 68 of them dont go back to jail. All right. So what the rethink what we do with these offenders when they get out. Thats exactly what and how is it you havent left and one on things are very hard to get Public Housing or housing. And so we often, yes. You need to make sure that if someones shoplifting, they prosecuted and they they shouldnt be held the countable, then we need to think, what are they, whats going to integrate them into society . How are they going to get a house . How are they going to be able to get a job . And we dont we dont pay any attention to that part. And as Vice President , what would you say in your training . I were not, but i mean, theres a group in one, turn it down. What did you oh, absolutely. Nobody would turn that down to eat away, right . I just for your countries, right . Youve served your country. But theres a group in South Carolina, its called turn 90. Its nonprofit, but they they get job training, therapy, education for these offenders that come out and they have 22 rate of, i mean, these guys are not going back to jail its something that i started when i was attorney general, we call it the smart on crime initiative. And what is the one of the first things that they did in the Trump Administration under sessions they really got it. A lot of the things that you just talking about, but trump design the first steps act into law was a bipartisan Prison Reform bill in december of 2018, he did some do some good Prison Reformers amount after Kim Kardashian visited them. But women im used to be restrained women in prison, used to be restrained to their bid beds while giving birth until the First Step Act got rid of that barbaric practice. So he did some good on bipartisan Prison Reform to but there are some low hanging fruit again, in prison, its crazy, but there was a need for second act and never have. And it did happen after Kim Kardashian, she lobbied her asieh off. Well. Then she did a good job. So we applaud kim carter. What do you think of senators schumers speech criticizing netting . Yahoo and calling for new elections in israel. Wow, that lately inappropriate you thought it was completely inappropriate. You should not be meddling in the election or affairs of other countries now we do sometimes we should not be doing that. We dont like it when they do it with us. Thats true. Right. And we shouldnt be doing another countries and we have done this and weve done it unsuccessfully for decades. Weve had really resist offering an opinion yeah are we do give them a lot of money. Maybe that gives us the right just maybe kibbutz a little hi. To say, heres the need to separate the netanyahu policies from the support that we all feel for israel and the har is that hamas actually brought to the people at the netanyahu policies are deplorable. They are deplorable, they are real. Thats israeli direct ways. One of the strongest supporters of the us israel relationship to say that you have to know how much bibi has probably upset about that takes a lot. We ran over thank you. Sorry you can watch real time with bill maher on friday nights on hbo at 10 00 p. M. And then watch over time right here on cnn friday night at 11 30, coming up the prosecutor overseeing the cases against the parents of Ethan Crumbley is now speaking out what shes saying about the History Doric guilty verdicts that could reshape just who is responsible for School Shootings deals cia secrets, affairs, bribery, Corruption Prostitution theres so much more to the story and it states of scandal with jake tapper sunday at nine on cnn start your de with nature. 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But im deadly, sorry, body for knowing about actives, but giving 100 of them to my face, the fear no more body get active serums with Hyaluronic Acid that quench vitamin c that brightened and pro sarah mics that even everywhere, new doves serum, Body Wash Get Death or get fomo vegas. The story of sin city. Sunday at ten on cnn so whos responsible when a teen goes on a Deadly School shooting rampage . How this country answers that question . May now be forever changed. That after a pair of groundbreaking trials in michigan, im talking of course about jennifer and james crumbley, the parents of the 2021 Oxford High School shooter, who quit, who killed four fellow students. His mother and his father were both found guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter now, the prosecutor who pursued their cases while shes speaking out, heres cnns jean casarez ive never, ever, ever thought or doubted that this case was strong. James and Jennifer Crumbley didnt pull the trigger. But karen mcdonald, the michigan prosecutor who oversaw both cases, says they were clearly responsible. I knew once the actual evidence was in front of 12, reasonable people, that they would come to the conclusion. We cant just let them walk away from that. Its its just not right legal experts now saying that the guilty charges against the crumbleys will likely set a new precedent surrounding the degree to which parents of School Shooters can also be held accountable. Did you realize at the time that charges like this hadnt been brought in this country before . Absolutely not. I never asked that question. This is a special set of facts but isnt it warranted those charges that you brought arent they warranted and circumstances around this country by prosecutors and all of our states. Well, we have to have prosecutors and Law Enforcement and Community Members asking the right question. When that case was presented. And i was met with while we cant charge them, what are we going to charge them with . Wheres the legal duty . And i said we have to find that, but i know it exists because i know that our law, our set of laws are based on whats right and wrong and i know that we have a duty two other children and other people to protect them. She says evidenced the parents immediately suspected their son was the shooter calling 911 and texting him helped convince her to charge them i looked at the moms phone and the last texts she sent was ethan, dont do it this to me was never a close call. Can anything be done in the criminal Justice System to address the Mental Health aspect . Of a minor when the parents know it, see it, and dont do anything about it . Yes. And were doing that, but i want to be clear about something. A lot of times we like to say theres a Mental Health crisis in the country in this country. And until we address that, we wont prevent gun violence. Thats not true. We dont need an army of therapists to solve this problem. What we need or database evidence based components to teach just basic core distress tolerance and emotional social curriculum. And then we need to teach people how to identify someone whos in Crisis Mcdonald has been a High School Teacher judge, and prosecutor, but says its her role as a parent that really drove her in this prosecution im a mom and i promised those parents that i would from the day i met them, that i would i would handle this case as if that was my own kid. Right or wrong. And i have jean casarez, cnn, pontiac, michigan jean. Thank you so much for that. Up next, my investigation into two missing people with one mysterious connection. Its part of cnns the whole story for the Anderson Cooper if you, work in spaceflight, this is the worst possible thing that can ever help my dad died doing what he loved. Space shuttle columbia. He final flight from your sunday, april 7 at nine on clb honest. 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The difference at when pod. Co how im on her raju on capitol hill. And this is cnn close captioning brought to you by rule or law, iconic brands up to 70 off retail at roulette law. Com, at rubella. You never pay for these the deals on top before their car south without all that ive got to tell you about this truly spellbinding story. A cold case reopened in 2,000. 32 men of color went missing three months apart their names, Philippe Santos and Terence Williams both vanish from naples, florida and both banish along the same road. And guess what, both vanished after getting in a patrol car driven by the same white Deputy Sheriff both are believed to be dead. 20 years later that Deputy Sheriff, a man by the name of steve caulkins, remains the last person to see either of those men alive, and he maintains his innocence. The cold case was little known until tyler perry and civil rights Attorney Ben Crump teamed up to file a Wrongful Death Suit against caulkins in 2018. But now on a he was transport and someone from one location to another. The timeline of when he said it occurred versus the independent witnesses. All of that appeared that he was not being truthful about the encounter between Terrence Williams and himself those in consistencies surface during a monthlong internal investigation. Corporal caulkins took three Polygraph Test during the probe. One of those tests indicated deception mircea, there was a time when caulkins was interviewed. I want to play this for you in this meat scum, bags. My son was gone bad maybe his color is it own separate scum bag. Maybe he was a dirty car joining me now seen in Crime Reporter thomas lake thomas, its so good to see you again, my friend, i mean, it was youre reporting that we followed up on in the first place. How did this case even cross your desk . Yeah. Back in 2019, i just finished up another investigation and i was looking down lists of unsolved Missing Persons cases in this country. And this one came up and it sort of haunted me ever since. Ive been digging into it now, interviewed more than 70 people. Read ten more than 10,000 pages of documents, look through just about every arrest and incident report this deputy ever looked at gone through some woods down there in florida looking for bones, myself, and done a lot of lying awake at night thinking about this case, it just theres something about it. Laura that seems different from anything else ive ever looked into, and i dont know what its the same thing happened to you it did. I mean, just your reporting and also meeting rossiya, who is terrence is mother looking in the eyes of another mother, who just wants to know what happened, just wants to know what happened to her son. And as you got deeper in the weeds of this story, you notice all of these discrepancies included looting and especially a second disappearance. Turns williams and of course, belief by santos three months apart, talk to us about that yeah. Its striking the similarities between these two disappearances the deputy gave similar stories. In both cases. He said, well, i just decided to cut this man a break and drop him off at the circle k. Well, investigators went and they checked there was no proof that either man ever got to this circle k. Both these men were men of color. They were driving without a license or insurance there was a colleague of caulkins who told me drivers uninsured or unlicensed drivers, that was something that made Deputy Coggins especially angry and so what was going on with them . Hed gone Something Like three years without making any arrests. So he was out there apparently not being very closely supervised. And he seemed to have this sense that the Justice System wasnt working so where did that lead him its disturbing to think about where did that lead him . What was he doing and what happened from the time that he pulled over these two men at the time that was unaccounted for we dive into all of those questions. This is a really important whole story. Thomas lake, your report according phenomenal. Be sure everyone to tunein. Its an all new episode of the whole story with Anderson Cooper. One whole our 1 whole story in air sunday at 08 00 p. M. Eastern and pacific