proportionality and precaution. although the us vetoed the vote... the us secretary of state antony blinken says there is a gap between israel's promise to protect civilians and its actions on the ground. more than 17,000 palestinians have now been killed according to the hamas—run health ministry. and while israel claims that some 5,000 of that number are hamas fighters, there are huge numbers of women and children among the dead. frank lowenstein, who was formerly president obama's special envoy for middle east peace, says the numbers are concerning. he told me why the united states is not going to vote for a cease—fire. because in the minds of the united states and the biden administration, there's two very different questions here. the first is, "should there be a cease—fire that effectively allows "hamas to stay in place?" and we've been very clear that we oppose that. at the same time, we really have been pushing the israelis as hard as we can to get them to allow more humanitarian assistance in and to do more to prevent civilian casualties, and i think that is where the united states is going to be under increasing pressure — domestically, politically at home and internationally — to start putting tougher measures in place to ensure that israel actually does comply let's pick this up at our panel. our panel tonight is former adviser to the treasury leon emirali, now a pr consultant, and the democratic and legal analyst kelly hyman. thank you for your patience. kelly, the point frank leven was making there, the political pressure now building onjoe biden, what will this vote mean domestically for him? i think it is important to remember, first of all, that we are one nation, we are altogether and that united states supports israel, but we have to think about this globally and the effects of what is going to happen in the future, and hopefully there can be some type of resolution thatis there can be some type of resolution that is going to help the people of israel and be beneficial to everyone. israel and be beneficial to everyone-— israel and be beneficial to eve one. , ., , everyone. does it in any way, the oint everyone. does it in any way, the point robert _ everyone. does it in any way, the point robert wood _ everyone. does it in any way, the point robert wood was _ everyone. does it in any way, the point robert wood was making i everyone. does it in any way, the point robert wood was making in his address to the counciljust now is that all the us recommendations were ignored, that it was rushed, there is not the appropriate consultation — is that believe the answer? or do you think from the get go here the united states wanted to give israel more time? i united states wanted to give israel more time?— united states wanted to give israel more time? ~' ,, ., , more time? i think the united states wanted to give _ more time? i think the united states wanted to give israel— more time? i think the united states wanted to give israel more _ more time? i think the united states wanted to give israel more time, - more time? i think the united states wanted to give israel more time, i i wanted to give israel more time, i definitely think that is important, and hopefully there can be some type of resolution to do this. it is horrific, what happened to the people of israel and to lose their loved ones in the situation they did, but everyone wants peace, everyone wants some type of resolution, and so hopefully that will be forthcoming for all of us. leon, we heard from the united arab emirates, who had sponsored this resolution and brought this resolution and brought this resolution before the council, and he questioned what the purpose of the united nations security council is. there will be a lot of people tonight looking at what is happening in gaza and wondering the same component to there? i in gaza and wondering the same component to there?— in gaza and wondering the same component to there? i think there will be. ithink— component to there? i think there will be. i think this _ component to there? i think there will be. i think this is _ component to there? i think there will be. i think this is a _ will be. i think this is a disappointing evening for a lot of people _ disappointing evening for a lot of people who want to see peace in this conflict _ people who want to see peace in this conflict. when we look about the scenes _ conflict. when we look about the scenes around the united nations table. _ scenes around the united nations table. the — scenes around the united nations table, the diplomacy going on is far removed _ table, the diplomacy going on is far removed from the situation on the ground _ removed from the situation on the ground in— removed from the situation on the ground in gaza, also in israel, where — ground in gaza, also in israel, where the _ ground in gaza, also in israel, where the fighting is taking place, and i_ where the fighting is taking place, and i think— where the fighting is taking place, and i think those individuals, they will he _ and i think those individuals, they will be absolutely distraught, i imagine. — will be absolutely distraught, i imagine, that the sign of a cease—fire, the chances of a cease-fire _ cease—fire, the chances of a cease—fire are diminished, and i'm disappointed, i have to say, in the us and _ disappointed, i have to say, in the us and uk— disappointed, i have to say, in the us and uk for not taking this as an opportunity to signal their dedication towards finding a resolution.— dedication towards finding a resolution. ~ ., ., .~ ., resolution. what do you make about the eur0pean _ resolution. what do you make about the european position? _ resolution. what do you make about the european position? i— resolution. what do you make about the european position? i am - resolution. what do you make about the european position? i amjust - the european position? i am just looking at the comments from the french representative, who says we do not see any contradiction in the fight against terrorism and the protection of civilians in strict respect for international humanitarian law, the expressed grave concern about what is going on, and then they added, unfortunately once again this council has failed with a lack of unity and by refusing to commit to negotiations. why do you think the uk did not vote against the resolution and abstained? i think the uk is in _ resolution and abstained? i think the uk is in a _ resolution and abstained? i think the uk is in a very _ resolution and abstained? i think the uk is in a very difficult - the uk is in a very difficult situation, because obviously the alliance — situation, because obviously the alliance with the united states is incredibly important from a military. _ incredibly important from a military, diplomacy point of view, but also _ military, diplomacy point of view, but also the relationship with our european — but also the relationship with our european allies is incredibly important, so the uk in no way was stuck— important, so the uk in no way was stuck in _ important, so the uk in no way was stuck in between a rock at a hard place. _ stuck in between a rock at a hard place. and — stuck in between a rock at a hard place. and i_ stuck in between a rock at a hard place, and i think by abstaining, they— place, and i think by abstaining, they essentially took an easy way out -- _ they essentially took an easy way out -- in — they essentially took an easy way out -- in a — they essentially took an easy way out —— in a way was stuck between. they— out —— in a way was stuck between. they say— out —— in a way was stuck between. they say they — out —— in a way was stuck between. they say they wish there was more of a considered — they say they wish there was more of a considered approach to the negotiation while recognising there are a lot _ negotiation while recognising there are a lot of people in europe, as well— are a lot of people in europe, as well as— are a lot of people in europe, as well as in— are a lot of people in europe, as well as in the uk, are a lot of people in europe, as wellas in the uk, who are a lot of people in europe, as well as in the uk, who do want to see a— well as in the uk, who do want to see a cease—fire implemented, and i think— see a cease—fire implemented, and i think the _ see a cease—fire implemented, and i think the uk, to take that position has ultimately shown they are trying to now _ has ultimately shown they are trying to now straddle the best of both worlds _ to now straddle the best of both worlds and not alienate any allies on either— worlds and not alienate any allies on either side of where they are at the moment. on either side of where they are at the moment-— the moment. plenty of live reaction on the live page _ the moment. plenty of live reaction on the live page on _ the moment. plenty of live reaction on the live page on the _ the moment. plenty of live reaction on the live page on the bbc - the moment. plenty of live reaction| on the live page on the bbc website if you want to follow some of the comments from the un security council, but let's move on. before that vote, i was telling you about russia and ukraine. russia has fired cruise missiles at ukraine for the first in over two months. the air raid in kyiv lasted almost two hours though thankfully all the missiles heading towards the ukrainian capital were destroyed by western supplied air defences. the central parts of the country weren't so lucky. one person was killed and four others were injured in the city of pavlohrad. six s—300s, the long range surface to air missiles were fired at the eastern kharkiv region, with residential buildings destroyed, one dead, several others injured. coincidence? not likely. the russians are probably taking their cue from what is going on in the united states. ukraine desperately needs support. congress still deadlocked on that crucialfunding bill, the republicans refusing to budge unless and untiljoe biden agrees to immigration reform. the kremlin is coming again, determined to impress on western capitals that it has the stamina and the means to continue this fight. joining me now is lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, former director of european affars for the united states national security council. thank you for coming on the programme and thank you for your patience, waiting for us while we got through everything at the security council tonight. your reaction to what has happened today in ukraine, vis—a—vis what is happening in the united states? unfortunately, it is expected that russia was going to attempt to punish the ukrainian capital, target ukrainian infrastructure, degrade the energy infrastructure and make it a particularly cold and harsh winter. as you pointed out, it is not coincidental that the russians are looking to punctuate the fact that the us house of representatives, senate, republicans in general are obstructing critical aid to ukraine by signalling that there will be continued russian aggression. i think that this has been part of russia's plan all along, to wait and allow natural fault lines to emerge and then exploit those, and it is pretty shocking that in the same breath that you see these cruise missile strikes on ukraine, ucf leads and praise for their republican obstruction of ukraine aid —— ucd. as you point out it is not coincidental. we'll see more of this unfold. it is critical, it is essential the us finally provides aid to ukraine, otherwise even the status quo, kind of limited gains, limiting the gains of the russians, successful defence of the ukrainians, that is likely to unravel. ~ �* . ukrainians, that is likely to unravel. ~ �*, , , unravel. mr putin's spokes person said they would _ not —— the idea they would have peace talks with kyiv next year is unrealistic. what are your thoughts on that? i unrealistic. what are your thoughts on that? . ., , ., on that? i am doubtful, i engage with the us _ on that? i am doubtful, i engage with the us government, - on that? i am doubtful, i engage with the us government, i - on that? i am doubtful, i engage with the us government, ijust i on that? i am doubtful, i engage l with the us government, ijust had a briefing with two senior state department officials yesterday for some i'm very doubtful there are any real pushes towards ukraine negotiating on any... the reason for thatis negotiating on any... the reason for that is simple. there is no indication the russians are ready to go she ate, and having the ukrainians engage in negotiations would be a fruitless endeavour. i think their expectation i was clear and hardened, that war is going to continue through 2024, one of the milestones will be the presidential election. ifjoe biden retains the white house, which united is likely, then there will be a little bit more of a seriousness from the russian side to negotiate on the prospects of former years of war. however, if trump were to win the white house, that would be an opportunity that the russians would seize to go for their maximalist objectives, but i don't think there's a real prospect of any meaningful peace negotiations between now and then. if anything it would be closer to patchell that the russians will be looking for from the ukrainians. == russians will be looking for from the ukrainians.— the ukrainians. -- capitulations. sta with the ukrainians. -- capitulations. stay with us- _ the ukrainians. -- capitulations. stay with us. i _ the ukrainians. -- capitulations. stay with us. i want _ the ukrainians. -- capitulations. stay with us. i want you - the ukrainians. -- capitulations. stay with us. i want you to - the ukrainians. -- capitulations. - stay with us. i want you to comment on this other big news today from moscow. vladimir putin announced today he will be running again in russia's presidential elections next year, as had been widely expected. but the announcement came about in a rather roundabout way, via a question posed by a senior officer at a ceremony honouring heroes of the fatherland. the president's press secretary dmitry peskov insisted it was spontaneous. i will let you decide. translation: | on behalf- of all our people, all of donbas, ourjoined lands, would like to ask you to take part in these elections. translation: thank you very much. i will not hide the fact that at different times, i had different thoughts. now, you are right, this is the time. the decision needs to be made. i will run for the post of president of the russian federation. the last time, or the first time that vladimir putin was elected from bill clinton was still in power. this term, and you would imagine he will win it, would take him all the way to 2036. he would almost be the longest serving russian leader, after stalin. but i suppose that depends on whether or not he wins this war? . depends on whether or not he wins this war? , ., ., ,, ., this war? this term would take to 2030... this war? this term would take to 2030- -- that _ this war? this term would take to 2030. .. that he _ this war? this term would take to 2030. .. that he would _ this war? this term would take to 2030... that he would run again. this war? this term would take to l 2030... that he would run again in a... he 2030... that he would run again in a--- he would _ 2030... that he would run again in a... he would run _ 2030... that he would run again in a... he would run again _ 2030... that he would run again in a... he would run again in - 2030... that he would run again in a... he would run again in another| a... he would run again in another surrise a... he would run again in another surprise bit _ a... he would run again in another surprise bit after _ a... he would run again in another surprise bit after lots _ a... he would run again in another surprise bit after lots of _ surprise bit after lots of deliberation to 2036. we can go ahead and predict the fact he was stay until 2036 stop those he ahead and predict the fact he was stay until 2036 stop those be his last two terms, but of course everything is choreographed and staged. there is no surprise that he was going to run for another election. i think for me, what i think about the election in march is that i think it might be a turning point actually in the russian ukraine war, that with another six years, basically secured, probably some machinations, high turnout, high popular results for putin, we could see another mass mobilisation, but of course is no surprise that is running for office. the applications of that might be for the next six years of russia, ukraine relations and russian relations with the west, those are probably the more significant factors with probably a fair number of surprises emerging over that period of time. does that chan . e over that period of time. does that change the — over that period of time. does that change the politics _ over that period of time. does that change the politics in _ over that period of time. does that change the politics in washington, | change the politics in washington, people knowing that he is going to be there for the duration? i people knowing that he is going to be there for the duration?- be there for the duration? i think it is auoin be there for the duration? i think it is going to _ be there for the duration? i think it is going to depend _ be there for the duration? i think it is going to depend on who - be there for the duration? i think it is going to depend on who is i it is going to depend on who is the next president of the united states when the _ next president of the united states when the election comes up. i think that is— when the election comes up. i think that is going to be key on how it is going _ that is going to be key on how it is going to _ that is going to be key on how it is going to affect, whether biden is going _ going to affect, whether biden is going to — going to affect, whether biden is going to win a reelection or if trump. — going to win a reelection or if trump, who was most likely going to be trump, who was most likely going to he the _ trump, who was most likely going to be the nominee, is going to win, because — be the nominee, is going to win, because that is definitely could have _ because that is definitely could have an — because that is definitely could have an effect on their relationship with russia, but there is no surprise _ with russia, but there is no surprise here that he was going to run, surprise here that he was going to run. and _ surprise here that he was going to run. and i— surprise here that he was going to run, and i agree with the other speaker. — run, and i agree with the other speaker, the fact that it looks as though— speaker, the fact that it looks as though it — speaker, the fact that it looks as though it was preplanned, that he was going — though it was preplanned, that he was going to run and announce it this wav — was going to run and announce it this wa . ., , , ., , this way. leon, this news that he is auoin to this way. leon, this news that he is going to run — this way. leon, this news that he is going to run again, _ this way. leon, this news that he is going to run again, sort _ this way. leon, this news that he is going to run again, sort of- going to run again, sort of coinciding with some whirring news thatis coinciding with some whirring news that is come out of russia today that is come out of russia today that navalny, alexei navalny, has gone missing —— worrying news. he was supposed to appear in court — that did not happen. he has not been seen by his lawyer for three days. they are talking about a blackout at the maxims in creepers where he is, but we already know he has been quite ill before this, and now has dropped off the face of theirs as putin is saying he is running again. i don't know if that is a coincidence but he his supporters? it will worry his supporters and it translate — it will worry his supporters and it translate that, _ it will worry his supporters and it translate that, 0k, _ it will worry his supporters and it translate that, 0k, we're - it will worry his supporters and it translate that, 0k, we're talking| translate that, 0k, we're talking about _ translate that, 0k, we're talking about the — translate that, 0k, we're talking about the terms _ translate that, ok, we're talking about the terms of— translate that, ok, we're talking about the terms of vladimir- translate that, 0k, we're talking | about the terms of vladimir putin running _ about the terms of vladimir putin running for— about the terms of vladimir putin running for reelection, _ about the terms of vladimir putin running for reelection, but - about the terms of vladimir putin running for reelection, but let's . running for reelection, but let's face _ running for reelection, but let's face it. — running for reelection, but let's face it. it — running for reelection, but let's face it. it is— running for reelection, but let's face it, it is not _ running for reelection, but let's face it, it is not going _ running for reelection, but let's face it, it is not going to - running for reelection, but let's face it, it is not going to be - running for reelection, but let's l face it, it is not going to be much of an— face it, it is not going to be much of an election. _ face it, it is not going to be much of an election. there _ face it, it is not going to be much of an election. there is _ face it, it is not going to be much of an election. there is going - face it, it is not going to be much of an election. there is going to i face it, it is not going to be much i of an election. there is going to be a lot— of an election. there is going to be a lot of— of an election. there is going to be a lot of scrutiny _ of an election. there is going to be a lot of scrutiny about _ of an election. there is going to be a lot of scrutiny about the - of an election. there is going to be a lot of scrutiny about the actual i a lot of scrutiny about the actual democratic — a lot of scrutiny about the actual democratic process _ a lot of scrutiny about the actual democratic process that - a lot of scrutiny about the actual democratic process that takes i a lot of scrutiny about the actual. democratic process that takes place in the _ democratic process that takes place in the russian — democratic process that takes place in the russian presidential- democratic process that takes place in the russian presidential electioni in the russian presidential election and the _ in the russian presidential election and the fact— in the russian presidential election and the fact that _ in the russian presidential election and the fact that navalny _ in the russian presidential election and the fact that navalny is - and the fact that navalny is worryingly— and the fact that navalny is worryingly missing, - and the fact that navalny is worryingly missing, we - and the fact that navalny isi worryingly missing, we don't and the fact that navalny is - worryingly missing, we don't seem to know where _ worryingly missing, we don't seem to know where he — worryingly missing, we don't seem to know where he is, _ worryingly missing, we don't seem to know where he is, just _ worryingly missing, we don't seem to know where he is, just shows - worryingly missing, we don't seem to know where he is, just shows you - worryingly missing, we don't seem to know where he is, just shows you the brutality _ know where he is, just shows you the brutality of _ know where he is, just shows you the brutality of vladimir— know where he is, just shows you the brutality of vladimir putin, _ know where he is, just shows you the brutality of vladimir putin, that - know where he is, just shows you the brutality of vladimir putin, that he i brutality of vladimir putin, that he is willing _ brutality of vladimir putin, that he is willing to — brutality of vladimir putin, that he is willing to not _ brutality of vladimir putin, that he is willing to not engage _ brutality of vladimir putin, that he is willing to not engage with - brutality of vladimir putin, that he is willing to not engage with his i is willing to not engage with his political— is willing to not engage with his political opponents _ is willing to not engage with his political opponents but - is willing to not engage with his political opponents but actually| is willing to not engage with his . political opponents but actually to lock them — political opponents but actually to lock them up _ political opponents but actually to lock them up and _ political opponents but actually to lock them up and potentially- political opponents but actually to| lock them up and potentially harm them, _ lock them up and potentially harm them, so — lock them up and potentially harm them, so i — lock them up and potentially harm them, so i think— lock them up and potentially harm them, so i think that _ lock them up and potentially harm them, so i think thatjust- lock them up and potentially harm them, so i think thatjust shows i them, so i think thatjust shows you them, so i think thatjust shows you the deficit— them, so i think thatjust shows you the deficit of— them, so i think thatjust shows you the deficit of democracy— them, so i think thatjust shows you the deficit of democracy in - them, so i think thatjust shows you the deficit of democracy in russia i the deficit of democracy in russia and what — the deficit of democracy in russia and what we _ the deficit of democracy in russia and what we can _ the deficit of democracy in russia and what we can expect - the deficit of democracy in russia and what we can expect if - the deficit of democracy in russia and what we can expect if he - the deficit of democracy in russia | and what we can expect if he does retain— and what we can expect if he does retain that — and what we can expect if he does retain that presidency _ and what we can expect if he does retain that presidency for - retain that presidency for that period — retain that presidency for that period of— retain that presidency for that period of time, _ retain that presidency for that period of time, and _ retain that presidency for that period of time, and i- retain that presidency for that period of time, and i do- retain that presidency for that period of time, and i do think| retain that presidency for that - period of time, and i do think that that are _ period of time, and i do think that that are putin. _ period of time, and i do think that that are putin, he _ period of time, and i do think that that are putin, he may— period of time, and i do think that that are putin, he may start - period of time, and i do think that that are putin, he may start the l that are putin, he may start the next _ that are putin, he may start the next stage _ that are putin, he may start the next stage these _ that are putin, he may start the next stage these type _ next stage these type of choreographed - next stage these type of| choreographed moments next stage these type of - choreographed moments where it next stage these type of _ choreographed moments where it looks as of the _ choreographed moments where it looks as of the russian— choreographed moments where it looks as of the russian people _ choreographed moments where it looks as of the russian people are _ as of the russian people are supporting _ as of the russian people are supporting him. _ as of the russian people are supporting him, but- as of the russian people are supporting him, but i - as of the russian people are supporting him, but i think. as of the russian people arel supporting him, but i think in reality— supporting him, but i think in reality the _ supporting him, but i think in reality the war— supporting him, but i think in reality the war in _ supporting him, but i think in reality the war in ukraine - supporting him, but i think in reality the war in ukraine is. supporting him, but i think in. reality the war in ukraine is not supporting him, but i think in- reality the war in ukraine is not as popular— reality the war in ukraine is not as popular as— reality the war in ukraine is not as popular as he _ reality the war in ukraine is not as popular as he would _ reality the war in ukraine is not as popular as he would like _ reality the war in ukraine is not as popular as he would like it - reality the war in ukraine is not as popular as he would like it to- popular as he would like it to be, there _ popular as he would like it to be, there are — popular as he would like it to be, there are hundreds— popular as he would like it to be, there are hundreds of— popular as he would like it to be, there are hundreds of thousands| popular as he would like it to be, . there are hundreds of thousands of russian _ there are hundreds of thousands of russian lives — there are hundreds of thousands of russian lives being _ there are hundreds of thousands of russian lives being lost _ there are hundreds of thousands of russian lives being lost and - there are hundreds of thousands of russian lives being lost and able i russian lives being lost and able play part — russian lives being lost and able play part in — russian lives being lost and able play part in his _ russian lives being lost and able play part in his popular- russian lives being lost and able play part in his popular tobaccoi russian lives being lost and able i play part in his popular tobacco him even _ play part in his popular tobacco him even if— play part in his popular tobacco him even if he _ play part in his popular tobacco him even if he is — play part in his popular tobacco him even if he is able _ play part in his popular tobacco him even if he is able to— play part in his popular tobacco him even if he is able to keep _ play part in his popular tobacco him even if he is able to keep him - play part in his popular tobacco him even if he is able to keep him of. even if he is able to keep him of his place — even if he is able to keep him of his place the kremlin. _ even if he is able to keep him of his place the kremlin. it- even if he is able to keep him of his place the kremlin. it is- even if he is able to keep him of his place the kremlin.— his place the kremlin. it is a very aood his place the kremlin. it is a very good point- _ his place the kremlin. it is a very good point- we _ his place the kremlin. it is a very good point. we were _ his place the kremlin. it is a very good point. we were going to - his place the kremlin. it is a very| good point. we were going to talk after the break about migration and what the republican tsar pushing in the house. just onjoe biden, who has been accused in the past of giving ukrainejust has been accused in the past of giving ukraine just enough has been accused in the past of giving ukrainejust enough but not enough to win, do you think at this moment with money running out he needs to do more from the white house —— republicans are pushing in the house was next is a time the congressional leaders are brought together and they found a way through this?— together and they found a way throu~h this? . ,,., , �* through this? absolutely, the biden demonstration _ through this? absolutely, the biden demonstration has _ through this? absolutely, the biden demonstration has to _ through this? absolutely, the biden demonstration has to do _ through this? absolutely, the biden demonstration has to do more. - through this? absolutely, the biden| demonstration has to do more. even when we pass this ukraine appropriation in the next couple weeks, i think there is a better than even chance it happens, that is still not good he than even chance it happens, that is still not good be enough. it is going to be hard for the administration to sustain the support in 2023 based on what was already given and what remains in the stocks, and i think we have been l mac not invested enough to be able to increase to the level that ukraine is —— not have invested enough. 2024 is going to be challenging. the russians are likely to mobilise, ukrainians are running low on ammunition, directions are actually starting to gain some additional drones —— the russian tsar. they are continuing on at the levels provided in 2023. it is not going to be enough. the ukrainians need training, munitions, materiel, logistics, and that is what this administration needs to do, to have any chance of having ukraine have a successful 2024 and set conditions for more favourable negotiation. this for more favourable negotiation. as lord rickets set on this programme last night, we are on a war footing whether we like it or not, and it is incumbent on governments to respond incumbent on governments to respond in that way. always good to talk to you. stay with us. you are watching bbc news. let's look at some other stories making news. the funeral of pogues frontman shane macgowan has been held in county tipperary in ireland. stars including bono and johnny depp took part in the funeral mass, with hundreds of mourners gathering in the grounds of the church in nenagh. the singer, perhaps best known for his smash—hit fairytale of new york, died on the 30th of november at the age of 65. judges have ruled that the uk government acted lawfully in blocking scotland's gender self—id reforms. legislation making it easier for people to change their legally recognised sex was passed by the scottish parliament last year, but the government in westminster blocked it over fears it would impact equality laws. the scottish government's legal challenge to that veto has now been rejected. yellow weather warnings for wind and rain are in place for large parts of the uk on friday and saturday, with disruption likely over the weekend. the met office say severe weather is expected in western and central england, as well as wales, south—west scotland and northern ireland. there are also almost 30 flood warnings in place, where flooding is expected. you're live with bbc news. we start on immigration. rishi sunak told reporters that his revamped rwanda plan will save british taxpayers money by ending the costly expense of housing illegal migrants in hotels. but an investigation into the terms of his re—negotiated deal reveals that on top of £140 million that britain has already handed over, rwanda will get an extra £100 million this year and a further £50 million next year. the scheme to send some asylum—seekers to rwanda for processing and potential resettlement, in order to deter those crossing the english channel, has until now been wrapped up in legal challenges, one after another. so far, no—one has been sent to rwanda. so is it value for money? the new minister of state for legal migration and delivery, tom pursglove, says yes, it is. what we want to bring about is ensuring that the policy is robust, that the capacity is in place to operationalise this as quickly as possible, and that is what some of this money is there to do. set that in the context of that £8 million a day spent that is currently going on. the rwanda policy is a key part of our answer to getting those costs down, to saving lives. the prime minister says the bill which he will put before the house on tuesday will stop most legal challenges and satisfy the british public. he was hoping this policy would give the conservatives a pre—election bounce. the latest yougov poll out today shows that has not materialised. instead, it has split his party. the right say the bill does not go far enough. the one nation tories, to the centre, say declaring in law that rwanda is safe is rather like declaring "all dogs are cats". here's the former chancellor george osborne. the tory civil wars are completely reopened. rishi sunak can no longer claim to have stabilised things. rishi sunak�*s biggest claim was i have stabilised things after boris johnson and liz truss. he can no longer claim to have stabilised things. his government is fragmenting around this immigration issue. dominic cummings, who is, let's face it, not shy to share his opinions, says he is pretending to block the courts when he very obsolete is not. there will be a useless attempt, he says, to claim that the bill has been sabotaged by the lords and the courts and that this is what the election is about. is he right? i think some of that is right, if not all of— think some of that is right, if not all of it — think some of that is right, if not all of it. this is a flawed policy from _ all of it. this is a flawed policy from the — all of it. this is a flawed policy from the very beginning. it seems to be it is— from the very beginning. it seems to be it is incredibly costly. is not viable — be it is incredibly costly. is not viable. and therefore it is not achieving _ viable. and therefore it is not achieving the ultimate objectives that is— achieving the ultimate objectives that is intended to and i think the biggest _ that is intended to and i think the biggest political problem for rishi about— biggest political problem for rishi about this policy is that it does not please and he faction of his party— not please and he faction of his party and — not please and he faction of his party and that is a real problem for rishi _ party and that is a real problem for rishi sunak, because he is scratching around, wondering who this policy— scratching around, wondering who this policy does speak to, and it is well worth— this policy does speak to, and it is well worth remembering this was not rishi sunak policy, this was not liz truss— rishi sunak policy, this was not liz truss policy, — rishi sunak policy, this was not liz truss policy, this was borisjohnson policy. _ truss policy, this was borisjohnson policy. and — truss policy, this was borisjohnson policy, and there's obviously been a lot of— policy, and there's obviously been a lot of change in government since he was prime _ lot of change in government since he was prime minister and since the policy— was prime minister and since the policy was — was prime minister and since the policy was announced and it seems as though— policy was announced and it seems as though rishi sunak, one way or the other, _ though rishi sunak, one way or the other, is— though rishi sunak, one way or the other, is going to be defined by the rwanda _ other, is going to be defined by the rwanda policy, which is slightly strange — rwanda policy, which is slightly strange because it is not something that he _ strange because it is not something that he necessarily supports, but clearly— that he necessarily supports, but clearly immigration is going to be one of— clearly immigration is going to be one of the — clearly immigration is going to be one of the biggest if not the biggest issue at the next uk general election. _ biggest issue at the next uk general election, and if the conservatives look like — election, and if the conservatives look like they cannot make it work, ithink— look like they cannot make it work, i think it _ look like they cannot make it work, i think it is — look like they cannot make it work, i think it is a — look like they cannot make it work, i think it is a problem for them. do ou i think it is a problem for them. you agree i think it is a problem for them. drr you agree with george osborne, the party is fragmented and adjust the worst possible moment? i party is fragmented and ad'ust the worst possible moment?_ party is fragmented and ad'ust the worst possible moment? i think the -a has worst possible moment? i think the party has been _ worst possible moment? i think the party has been fragmented - worst possible moment? i think the party has been fragmented since i party has been fragmented since 2016, _ party has been fragmented since 2016, really, since the brexit debate, _ 2016, really, since the brexit debate, it has opened this chasm in the conservative party, and really you cannot — the conservative party, and really you cannot win an election if you are as _ you cannot win an election if you are as divided as the conservatives currently— are as divided as the conservatives currently are and i think the reality— currently are and i think the reality of— currently are and i think the reality of it is that, yes, the conservative party is a broad church and you _ conservative party is a broad church and you will— conservative party is a broad church and you will hear that a lot from people — and you will hear that a lot from people within the party, is it too broad? — people within the party, is it too broad? ls — people within the party, is it too broad? is there too many spectrums on the _ broad? is there too many spectrums on the political spectrum that we are trying — on the political spectrum that we are trying to appease? and ultimately you cannot please everyone, and i think this is what rishi _ everyone, and i think this is what rishi sunak— everyone, and i think this is what rishi sunak is fining out, and you are going — rishi sunak is fining out, and you are going to the next election looking — are going to the next election looking like you are divided, looking _ looking like you are divided, looking like you are divided, looking like you are divided, looking like you have not got a plan of all _ looking like you have not got a plan of all the _ looking like you have not got a plan of all the labour party look on and rub their— of all the labour party look on and rub their hands in glee, i am sure. well, the us equivalent of the english channel is the southern border with mexico, although the figures involved are nowhere near comparable. 12,000 migrants crossed into the united states on tuesday alone. september was the busiest month ever for the border force, with 260,000 encounters. in congress, that similar clamour for immigration reform is now holding up supplementary aid for ukraine. as we just discussed. kelly, the republicans, whatever you thing about their policy on ukraine, the republicans are right about the border — the biden administration policy to stop asylum—seekers from flocking to the united states is just not working, and most of these people are not fleeing persecution, they are not in fear of life or limb, so do we need to restore asylum to its purpose as a route to safety for those who fear for their lives? , . ., , safety for those who fear for their lives? , _, , , ., safety for those who fear for their lives? , , ., . lives? every country should protect their border. _ lives? every country should protect their border, but _ lives? every country should protect their border, but as _ lives? every country should protect their border, but as you _ lives? every country should protect their border, but as you talk- lives? every country should protect| their border, but as you talk about, asylum, absolutely, and that is what the system is set up, to deal with that, but these are two separate issues, when we are talking about the 80 ukraine and also with immigration reform. biden has said, went to congress and said there should be immigration reform, but they are not acting, they are not proceeding to do it, and he is doing what he can with a limited power that he has two security borders, but do also in a humane way as well, but do also in a humane way as well, but ultimately it is up to congress to implement reform and hopefully they will do that, and also pass the funding for ukraine, because these are not two same issues, there two separate issues. it are not two same issues, there two separate issues-— are not two same issues, there two separate issues. it comes out in one sense to deterrence _ separate issues. it comes out in one sense to deterrence was _ separate issues. it comes out in one sense to deterrence was to - separate issues. it comes out in one sense to deterrence was to most - sense to deterrence was to most reasonable people would think it is not ok to separate children from theirfamilies and put not ok to separate children from their families and put them not ok to separate children from theirfamilies and put them in cages, as was the policy at one point of the trip administration, so what is the best form of deterrent when many who are expelled only return and have another go? {line when many who are expelled only return and have another go? one way to do it is to — return and have another go? one way to do it is to help _ return and have another go? one way to do it is to help fund _ return and have another go? one way to do it is to help fund countries - to do it is to help fund countries that they are coming to, so that they are not dealing with such economic issues but also that people are seeking asylum and that they have the rights that they are allowed to have one stay,. the united states is made up of immigrants. that is what makes the country so great, the fact that diversity is there an diversity is what makes it great, but ultimately it will be up to congress to implement some type of immigration reform that is going to work going forward. . ., _, ,., ,., forward. yeah, the one comparison, and will get — forward. yeah, the one comparison, and will get leon's _ forward. yeah, the one comparison, and will get leon's you _ forward. yeah, the one comparison, and will get leon's you on _ forward. yeah, the one comparison, and will get leon's you on this, - forward. yeah, the one comparison, and will get leon's you on this, is i and will get leon's you on this, is the backlog. that final determination that has to be made could take years and years, and that is not a process that deters illegal migrants, is it? quite the opposite? kelly? sorry. we migrants, is it? quite the opposite? kelly? sorry-— kelly? sorry. we have to think of this, kelly? sorry. we have to think of this. yes. — kelly? sorry. we have to think of this. yes. every _ kelly? sorry. we have to think of this, yes, every country - kelly? sorry. we have to think of this, yes, every country is - kelly? sorry. we have to think of. this, yes, every country is allowed to protect their borders and they have a right to do that as well, but there needs to be reform and the way that that is done in the united states is by congress, congress to act, and biden administration has stated that they should be doing immigration reform, but yet congress is not acting on it, and i think thatis is not acting on it, and i think that is key, i think that is important to do, and forward to realise that progress needs to act in the us. ~ . ., ,., realise that progress needs to act in the us. ~ . ., ., in the us. what about here, leon? that is the — in the us. what about here, leon? that is the big _ in the us. what about here, leon? that is the big problem _ in the us. what about here, leon? that is the big problem the - in the us. what about here, leon? | that is the big problem the minister put his finger on today, we are spending £8 million every day on housing people in hotels. the quickest way to get rid of that bill is to process people, isn't it? you would certainly _ is to process people, isn't it? you would certainly think so. i think the argument that is being made in westminster at the moment is that by sending _ westminster at the moment is that by sending illegal immigrants who come to this _ sending illegal immigrants who come to this country seeking asylum, sending — to this country seeking asylum, sending them to a safe third country. _ sending them to a safe third country, is a weight of making it cheaper— country, is a weight of making it cheaper for— country, is a weight of making it cheaper for dealing with those people — cheaper for dealing with those people who arrive in the uk, but the reality. _ people who arrive in the uk, but the reality. as _ people who arrive in the uk, but the reality, as we've seen from an office — reality, as we've seen from an office report today is that actually, it is more expensive to send _ actually, it is more expensive to send people to a third country —— home _ send people to a third country —— home office report. actually, it is better— home office report. actually, it is better off— home office report. actually, it is better off keeping them here in the uk and _ better off keeping them here in the uk and processing them in this country. — uk and processing them in this country, so the reality is very different _ country, so the reality is very different from what we are hearing on the _ different from what we are hearing on the airwaves from certain politicians, and that has to make a great _ politicians, and that has to make a great deal— politicians, and that has to make a great deal of sense to people, because — great deal of sense to people, because ultimately what we're looking — because ultimately what we're looking for his value for money for the taxpayer and if we cannot get that with — the taxpayer and if we cannot get that with this policy, i am not entirely— that with this policy, i am not entirely sure why we are even proceeding with it. find entirely sure why we are even proceeding with it.— entirely sure why we are even proceeding with it. and leon should know, proceeding with it. and leon should know. because _ proceeding with it. and leon should know, because he _ proceeding with it. and leon should know, because he was _ proceeding with it. and leon should know, because he was an _ proceeding with it. and leon should know, because he was an adviser i proceeding with it. and leon should know, because he was an adviser to the treasury! we are going to have a quick break, we are going to talk about hunter biden and cop28 and some suppressing phone numbers about the attitudes of the americans. —— surprising numbers. stay with us. hello there. we've got a couple of areas of low pressure for this weekend. that will bring spells of mild, but also wet weather at times. it will be noticeably mild compared to what we had last weekend. there will be some sunshine around over the weekend. it's not going to be a complete wash—out. and it's going to be windy both days, but particularly late on saturday. this is saturday's low pressure system hurtling through, bringing a band of rain, squeezing the isobars, bringing those gales. and then sunday's low pressure moves through. not quite as windy on sunday, but still another band of rainfall. you will notice both by day and by night it's going to be very mild for the time of year. now, with more rain falling on already saturated ground, we've already got a number of flood warnings. this is going to exacerbate the issue, and we could see more flood warnings by the end of the weekend. so stay tuned to the forecast. head online if you have any concerns. through tonight, it stays very wet, central and southern scotland. windy for the northern isles, and then here comes the next batch of wet and windy weather pushing into northern ireland, wales, the midlands, southern and south—west england. very mild with it, but generally it's going to be a frost—free night for most. very wet, windy day, certainly morning for saturday, northern ireland, england and wales. the rain becomes confined to central, southern scotland. to the north of it, brighter, sunshine, a few showers. and it brightens up later in the day across england and wales. sunny spells, a few scattered showers, a very mild 14 degrees in the south—east. but the winds will become a feature later in the day on saturday. widespread gales northern ireland, england and wales, and then there's a risk of gusts of 60—70 mph in northern ireland, particularly so into north—west england and north wales. this could cause some disruption for a time through saturday evening, the first part of the night. as we move through saturday night, the winds remain strong, but ease down somewhat. it stays quite showery across scotland, but we'll see a slot of drier, clearer weather for england, wales and northern ireland for a time on sunday morning. and again largely frost—free. sunday starts off fine, some early sunshine in central and eastern areas, but it won't be long till the next low pressure system moves through to bring wetter and breezier weather. the rain becomes confined to northern and eastern areas, and again we should see a bit of sunshine into the afternoon for england and wales, where we'll see temperatures 10—12 degrees here. it stays unsettled into the start of the new week, on the mild side, but then there's hints of it turning drier as high pressure builds in for the end of the week, with increasing amounts of sunshine. take care.