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consensus was that there is no documented asymptomatic transmission therefore policy was based on the assumption that covid transmitted as source. i had by this stage a significant amount of anecdotal evidence and hence i have gone over the sand over this and over this in my mind. if i had just said the science is different, that would not have carried the system with me because i'm not representative of the people, if you like, as the secretary of state and the scientific advice was very clear to the contrary. what i could have done was said you know, that may be the formal scientific advice, i am overrunning it and say instead marvellous and asymptomatic transmission, that would have had risks on the other side of assuming spread for it may have been unlikely to happen and but with hindsight of course i wish i had done that hence it is my single biggest regret but what i am trying... mr it is my single biggest regret but what i am trying. . ._ what i am trying... mr hancock, erfectl what i am trying... mr hancock, perfectly understandable - what i am trying... mr hancock, perfectly understandable you i what i am trying... mr hancock, . perfectly understandable you would wish to _ perfectly understandable you would wish to answer— perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at _ perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length _ perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length and - perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length and it - perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length and it is l wish to answer at length and it is an important— wish to answer at length and it is an important issue _ wish to answer at length and it is an important issue but _ wish to answer at length and it is an important issue but could - wish to answer at length and it is an important issue but could i. an important issue but could i invite — an important issue but could i invite you _ an important issue but could i invite you just _ an important issue but could i invite you just to _ an important issue but could i invite you just to please - an important issue but could i invite you just to please to . an important issue but could i. invite you just to please to stick to the _ invite you just to please to stick to the question. _ invite you just to please to stick to the question. sure. - invite you just to please to stick to the question. sure. 29- invite you just to please to stick to the question. sure. 29 430, i invite you just to please to stick- to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message _ to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message between— to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message between the _ to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message between the government l to the question. sure. 29 430, eight- message between the government chief scientific— message between the government chief scientific adviser— message between the government chief scientific adviser and _ message between the government chief scientific adviser and the _ message between the government chief scientific adviser and the chief - scientific adviser and the chief medicat— scientific adviser and the chief medical officer _ scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on _ scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on the - scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on the 24th i scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on the 24th of| scientific adviser and the chief - medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick— medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances _ medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances fight _ medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances fight the - medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances fight the prime minister— sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and — sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and matt— sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and matt hancock- sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and matt hancock are - sir patrick balances fight the prime . minister and matt hancock are saying we did _ minister and matt hancock are saying we did not— minister and matt hancock are saying we did not know— minister and matt hancock are saying we did not know about— minister and matt hancock are saying we did not know about asymptomaticj we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? — we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. _ we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. i— we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. i have - we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. i have no - transmission? exactly. i have no idea _ transmission? exactly. i have no idea they— transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were _ transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were aware _ transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were aware of - transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were aware of the - idea. they were aware of the possibility— idea. they were aware of the possibility but _ idea. they were aware of the possibility but it _ idea. they were aware of the possibility but it is _ idea. they were aware of the possibility but it is correctly. possibility but it is correctly thought _ possibility but it is correctly thought transmission- possibility but it is correctly thought transmission was l possibility but it is correctly- thought transmission was most likely after symptoms — thought transmission was most likely after symptoms like _ thought transmission was most likely after symptoms like source, - thought transmission was most likely after symptoms like source, by- thought transmission was most likely| after symptoms like source, by march ithink— after symptoms like source, by march i think of— after symptoms like source, by march i think of a _ after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty— after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty clear— after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty clear we _ after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty clear we thought i i think of a pretty clear we thought asymptomatic— i think of a pretty clear we thought asymptomatic transmission, - i think of a pretty clear we thought asymptomatic transmission, we i i think of a pretty clear we thought . asymptomatic transmission, we have to put— asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up— asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with — asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite _ asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a _ asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a bit _ asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a bit of- asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a bit of this, - to put up with quite a bit of this, 'ust to put up with quite a bit of this, just a _ to put up with quite a bit of this, just a wett— to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the _ to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the sage _ to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the sage minutes - to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the sage minutes ori to put up with quite a bit of this, i just a well the sage minutes or in the public— just a well the sage minutes or in the public domain. _ just a well the sage minutes or in the public domain. under- just a well the sage minutes or in the public domain. under the - just a well the sage minutes or in. the public domain. under the same reference _ the public domain. under the same reference tom _ the public domain. under the same reference to. . ._ reference to... don't yet know who the unknown _ reference to... don't yet know who the unknown s? _ reference to. .. don't yet know who the unknown s? sir— reference to... don't yet know who the unknown s? sir patrick - reference to... don't yet know who | the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers — the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating _ the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating they _ the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating they are - the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating they are that i the advisers stating they are that they did — the advisers stating they are that they did know— the advisers stating they are that they did know and _ the advisers stating they are that they did know and they _ the advisers stating they are that they did know and they told - the advisers stating they are that they did know and they told you i the advisers stating they are that. they did know and they told you and they did know and they told you and the prime _ they did know and they told you and the prime minister— they did know and they told you and the prime minister about— they did know and they told you and the prime minister about the - the prime minister about the significance _ the prime minister about the significance of— the prime minister about the significance of asymptomatic transmission _ significance of asymptomatic transmission and _ significance of asymptomatic transmission and the - significance of asymptomatic transmission and the degree| significance of asymptomatic . transmission and the degree of significance of asymptomatic - transmission and the degree of it and they— transmission and the degree of it and they are _ transmission and the degree of it and they are confounded - transmission and the degree of it and they are confounded by- transmission and the degree of it and they are confounded by the l and they are confounded by the notion— and they are confounded by the notion that _ and they are confounded by the notion that you _ and they are confounded by the notion that you and _ and they are confounded by the notion that you and the - and they are confounded by the notion that you and the prime i notion that you and the prime minister— notion that you and the prime minister are _ notion that you and the prime ministerare now— notion that you and the prime minister are now saying - notion that you and the prime minister are now saying he i notion that you and the prime| minister are now saying he did notion that you and the prime - minister are now saying he did not know— minister are now saying he did not know about — minister are now saying he did not know about it _ minister are now saying he did not know about it. we _ minister are now saying he did not know about it.— minister are now saying he did not know about it. ~ . ., . , , know about it. we are not apparently sa in: know about it. we are not apparently saying anything. _ know about it. we are not apparently saying anything. we _ know about it. we are not apparently saying anything, we are _ know about it. we are not apparently saying anything, we are clearly - saying anything, we are clearly stating the position put to us as the scientific position based on the global international scientific position which was to base policy on an assumption of no asymptomatic transmission and set up a public health england. that is what is being referred to in the first of these messages. and i assume this is a shorthand from patrick balance saying why is the prime minister at matt hancock saying we didn't know but what we were saying was the error was that the scientific advice required or are formally advised the policy should be based on an assumption of asymptomatic transmission. the problem here in this exchange is demonstrated by the words pretty clear, we were pretty clear that we thought, right, with the government chief scientific adviser knew as a post he was pretty clear and for then that may have changed the uk scientific position but he did not know as we have seen, there was huge uncertainty and i am not blaming him at all for this, there was huge uncertainty on this question and it is deeply frustrating to me now i'm deeply frustrating to me now i'm deeply frustrating at the time that being a pretty clear it was not good enough to change the scientific advice i received on which to base policy. all right. in any event your witness statement — all right. in any event your witness statement acknowledges _ all right. in any event your witness statement acknowledges the - statement acknowledges the importance _ statement acknowledges the importance of— statement acknowledges the importance of this _ statement acknowledges the importance of this debate i statement acknowledges the importance of this debate is| statement acknowledges the - importance of this debate is that if you do— importance of this debate is that if you do not— importance of this debate is that if you do not know— importance of this debate is that if you do not know the _ importance of this debate is that if you do not know the extent- importance of this debate is that if you do not know the extent of- you do not know the extent of asymptomatic— you do not know the extent of asymptomatic transmission. you do not know the extent of. asymptomatic transmission you you do not know the extent of- asymptomatic transmission you cannot -et a asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle _ asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on — asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the _ asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the extent _ asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the extent of- asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the extent of the - get a handle on the extent of the virus _ get a handle on the extent of the virus and — get a handle on the extent of the virus and therefore _ get a handle on the extent of the virus and therefore what - get a handle on the extent of the . virus and therefore what proportion of persons — virus and therefore what proportion of persons infected _ virus and therefore what proportion of persons infected will _ virus and therefore what proportion of persons infected will die - virus and therefore what proportion| of persons infected will die because you do— of persons infected will die because you do not— of persons infected will die because you do not know— of persons infected will die because you do not know how— of persons infected will die because you do not know how many- of persons infected will die because you do not know how many people i of persons infected will die because i you do not know how many people at the base _ you do not know how many people at the base level— you do not know how many people at the base level have _ you do not know how many people at the base level have got— you do not know how many people at the base level have got the _ the base level have got the infection— the base level have got the infection who _ the base level have got the infection who don't - the base level have got the infection who don't die. - the base level have got thei infection who don't die. and the base level have got the - infection who don't die. and you make _ infection who don't die. and you make the — infection who don't die. and you make the suggestion _ infection who don't die. and you make the suggestion in - infection who don't die. and you make the suggestion in your- infection who don't die. and you - make the suggestion in your witness statement _ make the suggestion in your witness statement that — make the suggestion in your witness statement that what _ make the suggestion in your witness statement that what could _ make the suggestion in your witness statement that what could have - make the suggestion in your witness| statement that what could have been done in _ statement that what could have been done in tight— statement that what could have been done in tight of— statement that what could have been done in light of what _ statement that what could have been done in light of what you _ statement that what could have been done in light of what you say - statement that what could have been done in light of what you say is - statement that what could have been done in light of what you say is the l done in light of what you say is the lack done in light of what you say is the tack of— done in light of what you say is the lack of knowledge _ done in light of what you say is the lack of knowledge about _ done in light of what you say is the lack of knowledge about the - done in light of what you say is the | lack of knowledge about the extent of asymptomatic _ lack of knowledge about the extent of asymptomatic transmission - lack of knowledge about the extent of asymptomatic transmission is i of asymptomatic transmission is applying — of asymptomatic transmission is applying the _ of asymptomatic transmission is applying the precautionary- of asymptomatic transmission is - applying the precautionary approach, that is— applying the precautionary approach, that is to _ applying the precautionary approach, that is to say. — applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply— applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply stay _ applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply stay as - applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply stay as a - that is to say, simply stay as a matter— that is to say, simply stay as a matter of— that is to say, simply stay as a matter of internal— that is to say, simply stay as a matter of internal policy- that is to say, simply stay as a matter of internal policy or - matter of internal policy or approach. _ matter of internal policy or approach. we _ matter of internal policy or approach, we do _ matter of internal policy or approach, we do not - matter of internal policy or approach, we do not know| matter of internal policy or. approach, we do not know the matter of internal policy or _ approach, we do not know the extent of asymptomatic _ approach, we do not know the extent of asymptomatic transmission. - approach, we do not know the extent of asymptomatic transmission. meat | of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not— of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know— of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it _ of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for— of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for some _ of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for some time - of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for some time so i of asymptomatic transmission. meat i may not know it for some time so why don't _ may not know it for some time so why don't we _ may not know it for some time so why don't we just — may not know it for some time so why don't we just appty _ may not know it for some time so why don't we just apply a _ may not know it for some time so why don't we just apply a careful, - don't we just apply a careful, precautionary— don't we just apply a careful, precautionary approach- don't we just apply a careful, | precautionary approach which don't we just apply a careful, . precautionary approach which is assume — precautionary approach which is assume that— precautionary approach which is assume that it _ precautionary approach which is assume that it is _ precautionary approach which is assume that it is at _ precautionary approach which is assume that it is at a _ precautionary approach which is| assume that it is at a significant level. _ assume that it is at a significant level. in— assume that it is at a significant level. in fact _ assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it _ assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned _ assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned out - assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned out to - assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned out to be| level, in fact it turned out to be between — level, in fact it turned out to be between 30 _ level, in fact it turned out to be between 30 and _ level, in fact it turned out to be between 30 and 34% _ level, in fact it turned out to be between 30 and 34% but - level, in fact it turned out to be between 30 and 34% but you i level, in fact it turned out to be i between 30 and 34% but you could take any— between 30 and 34% but you could take any level. _ between 30 and 34% but you could take any level, 20, _ between 30 and 34% but you could take any level, 20, 25, _ between 30 and 34% but you could take any level, 20, 25, 30% - between 30 and 34% but you could take any level, 20, 25, 30% level. take any level, 20, 25, 30% level and then— take any level, 20, 25, 30% level and then decide _ take any level, 20, 25, 30% level and then decide upon _ take any level, 20, 25, 30% level and then decide upon the - and then decide upon the countermeasures- and then decide upon the countermeasures that - and then decide upon the | countermeasures that are and then decide upon the _ countermeasures that are necessary to be _ countermeasures that are necessary to be able _ countermeasures that are necessary to be able to _ countermeasures that are necessary to be able to meet _ countermeasures that are necessary to be able to meet that _ countermeasures that are necessary to be able to meet that threat - countermeasures that are necessary to be able to meet that threat in - to be able to meet that threat in terms _ to be able to meet that threat in terms of— to be able to meet that threat in terms of infection _ to be able to meet that threat in terms of infection control? - to be able to meet that threat in terms of infection control? yes.| to be able to meet that threat ini terms of infection control? yes. i a oloaise terms of infection control? yes. i apologise for— terms of infection control? yes. i apologise for the _ terms of infection control? i apologise for the long terms of infection control?“ i apologise for the long preamble. | terms of infection control?“ i- apologise for the long preamble. the sta-e apologise for the long preamble. the stage was— apologise for the long preamble. the stage was reached _ apologise for the long preamble. the stage was reached in— apologise for the long preamble. the stage was reached in early— apologise for the long preamble. the stage was reached in early march - stage was reached in early march around _ stage was reached in early march around about _ stage was reached in early march around about the _ stage was reached in early march around about the tenth _ stage was reached in early march around about the tenth and - stage was reached in early march around about the tenth and 11th i stage was reached in early march i around about the tenth and 11th that regardless _ around about the tenth and 11th that regardless of — around about the tenth and 11th that regardless of the _ around about the tenth and 11th that regardless of the science _ around about the tenth and 11th that regardless of the science and - regardless of the science and asymptomatic— regardless of the science and asymptomatic transmission, i regardless of the science and - asymptomatic transmission, that was the correct _ asymptomatic transmission, that was the correct approach, _ asymptomatic transmission, that was the correct approach, you _ asymptomatic transmission, that was the correct approach, you simply- asymptomatic transmission, that was the correct approach, you simply had| the correct approach, you simply had to pian— the correct approach, you simply had to plan on— the correct approach, you simply had to plan on the — the correct approach, you simply had to plan on the basis— the correct approach, you simply had to plan on the basis that _ the correct approach, you simply had to plan on the basis that it— the correct approach, you simply had to plan on the basis that it was, - to plan on the basis that it was, regardless _ to plan on the basis that it was, regardless of _ to plan on the basis that it was, regardless of how— to plan on the basis that it was, regardless of how strong - to plan on the basis that it was, regardless of how strong the i to plan on the basis that it was, - regardless of how strong the science was so _ regardless of how strong the science was so did _ regardless of how strong the science was so did it — regardless of how strong the science was so did it matter— regardless of how strong the science was so did it matter ultimately- was so did it matter ultimately given— was so did it matter ultimately given that _ was so did it matter ultimately given that you _ was so did it matter ultimately given that you did _ was so did it matter ultimately given that you did apply- given that you did apply precautionary— given that you did applyi precautionary approach? given that you did apply- precautionary approach? this . uestion precautionary approach? this question did _ precautionary approach? this question did matter- precautionary approach? tiiiiii: question did matter and precautionary approach? question did matter and it is precautionary approach?- question did matter and it is not fair to say that the scientists knew for sure about the speight mid—march, that is not how they... i mid—march, that is not how they... i have not asked you about that. i asked _ have not asked you about that. i asked you — have not asked you about that. i asked you does _ have not asked you about that. i asked you does it— have not asked you about that. i asked you does it matter- have not asked you about that. i asked you does it matter there i have not asked you about that. i i asked you does it matter there was have not asked you about that. i - asked you does it matter there was a debate, _ asked you does it matter there was a debate, regardless _ asked you does it matter there was a debate, regardless of _ asked you does it matter there was a debate, regardless of whether- asked you does it matter there was a debate, regardless of whether you i debate, regardless of whether you are told _ debate, regardless of whether you are told are — debate, regardless of whether you are told are not _ debate, regardless of whether you are told are not about _ debate, regardless of whether you are told are not about the - debate, regardless of whether you are told are not about the degree i debate, regardless of whether you i are told are not about the degree of asymptomatic— are told are not about the degree of asymptomatic transmission- are told are not about the degree of asymptomatic transmission if- asymptomatic transmission if sensibly— asymptomatic transmission if sensibty the _ asymptomatic transmission if sensibly the point _ asymptomatic transmission if sensibly the point was - asymptomatic transmission if. sensibly the point was reached asymptomatic transmission if- sensibly the point was reached at which _ sensibly the point was reached at which you — sensibly the point was reached at which you had _ sensibly the point was reached at which you had to _ sensibly the point was reached at which you had to plan _ sensibly the point was reached at which you had to plan on - sensibly the point was reached at which you had to plan on the - sensibly the point was reached ati which you had to plan on the basis that there — which you had to plan on the basis that there was _ which you had to plan on the basis that there was an _ which you had to plan on the basis that there was an deciphered - that there was an deciphered appropriate _ that there was an deciphered| appropriate countermeasures that there was an deciphered - appropriate countermeasures could be promulgated _ appropriate countermeasures could be promulgated and — appropriate countermeasures could be promulgated and applied? _ appropriate countermeasures could be promulgated and applied? but - appropriate countermeasures could be promulgated and applied? but that. appropriate countermeasures could be promulgated and applied? but that isi promulgated and applied? but that is not what _ promulgated and applied? but that is not what happened. _ promulgated and applied? but that is not what happened. the _ promulgated and applied? but that is not what happened. the evidence - promulgated and applied? but that is. not what happened. the evidence from mr cumming _ not what happened. the evidence from mr cumming says _ not what happened. the evidence from mr cumming says by— not what happened. the evidence from mr cumming says by the _ not what happened. the evidence from mr cumming says by the 11th— not what happened. the evidence from mr cumming says by the 11th of- not what happened. the evidence from mr cumming says by the 11th of marchi mr cumming says by the 11th of march it was— mr cumming says by the 11th of march it was generally — mr cumming says by the 11th of march it was generally understood _ mr cumming says by the 11th of march it was generally understood that - mr cumming says by the 11th of march it was generally understood that a - it was generally understood that a large _ it was generally understood that a large percentage _ it was generally understood that a large percentage was _ it was generally understood that a large percentage was being - large percentage was being transmitted _ large percentage was being transmitted a _ large percentage was being. transmitted a symptomatically large percentage was being - transmitted a symptomatically and in any event, _ transmitted a symptomatically and in any event, the — transmitted a symptomatically and in any event, the planning _ transmitted a symptomatically and in any event, the planning material, - any event, the planning material, the reasonable _ any event, the planning material, the reasonable worst—case - any event, the planning material, i the reasonable worst—case scenario approach _ the reasonable worst—case scenario approach presumed _ the reasonable worst—case scenario approach presumed that _ the reasonable worst—case scenario approach presumed that there - the reasonable worst—case scenario. approach presumed that there would be a high _ approach presumed that there would be a high degree _ approach presumed that there would be a high degree of— approach presumed that there would be a high degree of asymptomatic. be a high degree of asymptomatic transmission _ be a high degree of asymptomatic transmission so _ be a high degree of asymptomatic transmission so did _ be a high degree of asymptomatic transmission so did it _ be a high degree of asymptomatic transmission so did it matter? - be a high degree of asymptomatic. transmission so did it matter? well, that is not accurate, _ transmission so did it matter? well, that is not accurate, as _ transmission so did it matter? well, that is not accurate, as much - transmission so did it matter? well, that is not accurate, as much of - that is not accurate, as much of that is not accurate, as much of that particular witness this evidence is not accurate, in all areas. that is the problem. i took the precautionary principle in some cases overrunning the scientific advice on the precautionary side. i mentioned for instance when we brought people back from grehan day grehan in late january early february, the scientific advice from public health england was they did not to be quarantined and i overwhelm that and said they needed to be quarantined based on the precautionary principle and then until the cdc evidence on the 3rd of april, there were decisions taken based on the public health england assessment of no asymptomatic transmission. not all. in the case of lockdown, the asymptomatic or non—asymptomatic route of transmission was not really discussed, it was clear that the cases were going up and we need to take action. the rate of transmission for that decision was a second order consideration and it was considered in some other areas and on those, the official advice remained as it was until the 3rd of april. remained as it was until the 3rd of aril. ., ., remained as it was until the 3rd of aril, ., ., ,., remained as it was until the 3rd of aril. ., ., ,, , . remained as it was until the 3rd of aril. ., ., i. , . . april. how do you understood and had a en april. how do you understood and had a pen widely — april. how do you understood and had a pen widely understood _ april. how do you understood and had a pen widely understood that - april. how do you understood and had a pen widely understood that there i a pen widely understood that there were significant— a pen widely understood that there were significant asymptomatic - were significant asymptomatic transmission _ were significant asymptomatic transmission earlier. - were significant asymptomatic transmission earlier. what - were significant asymptomatic - transmission earlier. what measures might— transmission earlier. what measures might have _ transmission earlier. what measures might have been _ transmission earlier. what measures might have been available _ transmission earlier. what measures might have been available and - transmission earlier. what measures might have been available and might have been— might have been available and might have been considered _ might have been available and might have been considered to _ might have been available and might have been considered to be - might have been available and might have been considered to be applied? you e> information you were not provided with, _ information you were not provided with. what — information you were not provided with, what practical— information you were not provided i with, what practical countermeasures might— with, what practical countermeasures might have _ with, what practical countermeasures might have been _ with, what practical countermeasures might have been available _ with, what practical countermeasures might have been available which - with, what practical countermeasures| might have been available which were not appreciated — might have been available which were not appreciated because _ might have been available which were not appreciated because of— might have been available which were not appreciated because of this - not appreciated because of this policy? — not appreciated because of this oli ? ., , ., . policy? for instance, in the guidance — policy? for instance, in the guidance to _ policy? for instance, in the guidance to care _ policy? for instance, in the guidance to care homes - policy? for instance, in the guidance to care homes on | policy? for instance, in the - guidance to care homes on discharge from hospital... hie. guidance to care homes on discharge from hospital. . ._ from hospital... no, i have asked ou from hospital... no, i have asked you about — from hospital... no, i have asked you about countermeasures - from hospital... no, i have asked you about countermeasures in - from hospital... no, i have asked| you about countermeasures in the context _ you about countermeasures in the context of— you about countermeasures in the context of infection _ you about countermeasures in the context of infection control- you about countermeasures in the context of infection control in - context of infection control in march, — context of infection control in march, i'm _ context of infection control in march, i'm not— context of infection control in march, i'm not talking - context of infection control in march, i'm not talking abouti march, i'm not talking about hospital— march, i'm not talking about hospital discharge, - march, i'm not talking about hospital discharge, i'm - march, i'm not talking about i hospital discharge, i'm talking about— hospital discharge, i'm talking about for— hospital discharge, i'm talking about for policies _ hospital discharge, i'm talking about for policies in _ hospital discharge, i'm talking about for policies in terms - hospital discharge, i'm talking about for policies in terms of. about for policies in terms of preventing _ about for policies in terms of preventing the _ about for policies in terms of preventing the spread - about for policies in terms of preventing the spread of- about for policies in terms of preventing the spread of the| preventing the spread of the infection— preventing the spread of the infection around _ preventing the spread of the infection around the - preventing the spread of the infection around the uk - preventing the spread of the infection around the uk in. preventing the spread of the - infection around the uk in response to the _ infection around the uk in response to the government _ infection around the uk in response to the government did _ infection around the uk in response to the government did of— infection around the uk in response to the government did of course - to the government did of course impose — to the government did of course impose measures _ to the government did of course impose measures on _ to the government did of course impose measures on the - to the government did of course impose measures on the 12th, l to the government did of course . impose measures on the 12th, the 16th, _ impose measures on the 12th, the 16th, 20th— impose measures on the 12th, the 16th, 20th and _ impose measures on the 12th, the 16th, 20th and 23rd _ impose measures on the 12th, the 16th, 20th and 23rd of— impose measures on the 12th, the 16th, 20th and 23rd of march, - impose measures on the 12th, the i 16th, 20th and 23rd of march, what measures— 16th, 20th and 23rd of march, what measures might _ 16th, 20th and 23rd of march, what measures might have _ 16th, 20th and 23rd of march, what measures might have been- 16th, 20th and 23rd of march, what measures might have been applied| measures might have been applied diffe re ntty — measures might have been applied differently had _ measures might have been applied differently had this _ differently had this misunderstandingl differently had this i misunderstanding to differently had this - misunderstanding to use a differently had this _ misunderstanding to use a natural expression. — misunderstanding to use a natural expression. not— misunderstanding to use a natural expression, not arisen? _ misunderstanding to use a natural expression, not arisen? [- misunderstanding to use a natural expression, not arisen?— expression, not arisen? i don't think it would _ expression, not arisen? i don't think it would have _ expression, not arisen? i don't think it would have made - expression, not arisen? i don't think it would have made a - think it would have made a difference to those specific decisions. i think it made a difference in terms of how infection prevention and control was done within health and care settings. that is very clear. how much time if you like. _ that is very clear. how much time if you like, doctrinally, _ that is very clear. how much time if you like, doctrinally, was _ that is very clear. how much time if you like, doctrinally, was given- that is very clear. how much time if you like, doctrinally, was given to l you like, doctrinally, was given to this debate — you like, doctrinally, was given to this debate is— you like, doctrinally, was given to this debate is the _ you like, doctrinally, was given to this debate is the government - this debate is the government machine — this debate is the government machine trundled _ this debate is the government machine trundled down - this debate is the government machine trundled down in- this debate is the government - machine trundled down in february and march? — machine trundled down in february and march?— machine trundled down in february and march? ironically, not enough. if the and march? ironically, not enough. if the chief— and march? ironically, not enough. if the chief scientific _ and march? ironically, not enough. if the chief scientific adviser - and march? ironically, not enough. if the chief scientific adviser is - if the chief scientific adviser is viewing as expressed later injuly in that whatsapp exchange with the chief medical officer, if there had been a successful engagement between history and then and sent me pretty much new, and the public health england scientists were making the recommendations for policy within health and care settings, if there had been better engagement there for instance, scientific advice might, i don't know, we cannot be sure, might have been different. if for instance, the evidence i am now seeing which i was not aware of at the time amongst some of the most eminent scientists in the uk like professor ferguson and professor edmonds and others that they had a higher degree of confidence that there was asymptomatic transmission, if that had been successfully promulgated to the world health organization then we may have had a difference in the advice coming from the who so we needed more debate. what was that crucial information not promulgated _ what was that crucial information not promulgated to _ what was that crucial information not promulgated to you? - what was that crucial information not promulgated to you? sage . what was that crucial information - not promulgated to you? sage access to to provide — not promulgated to you? sage access to to provide the _ not promulgated to you? sage access to to provide the uk _ not promulgated to you? sage access to to provide the uk government - not promulgated to you? sage access to to provide the uk government with| to to provide the uk government with scientific— to to provide the uk government with scientific advice, _ to to provide the uk government with scientific advice, they _ to to provide the uk government with scientific advice, they were _ scientific advice, they were contributors _ scientific advice, they were contributors to _ scientific advice, they were contributors to sage. - scientific advice, they were contributors to sage. theyj contributors to sage. they communicated _ contributors to sage. they communicated regularly. contributors to sage. they - communicated regularly within and without— communicated regularly within and without sage, _ communicated regularly within and without sage, with _ communicated regularly within and without sage, with professor- communicated regularly within and without sage, with professor sir. without sage, with professor sir chris— without sage, with professor sir chris whitty _ without sage, with professor sir chris whitty who _ without sage, with professor sir chris whitty who together- without sage, with professor sir chris whitty who together with l without sage, with professor sir. chris whitty who together with sir patrick _ chris whitty who together with sir patrick vallance _ chris whitty who together with sir patrick vallance spoke _ chris whitty who together with sir patrick vallance spoke to - chris whitty who together with sir patrick vallance spoke to you - chris whitty who together with sir patrick vallance spoke to you and | patrick vallance spoke to you and your officiats _ patrick vallance spoke to you and your officials daily. _ patrick vallance spoke to you and your officials daily. why - patrick vallance spoke to you and your officials daily.— your officials daily. why did you not know this? _ your officials daily. why did you not know this? i _ your officials daily. why did you not know this? i knew - your officials daily. why did you not know this? i knew what - your officials daily. why did you | not know this? i knew what they your officials daily. why did you - not know this? i knew what they knew and i read this eight minutes and as you see, the sage minutes and various other things that i did see at the time clearly state that there may be or there is likely some or all sorts of formulations or in a fog of uncertainty, but it was all essentially unproven anecdotal and... . . essentially unproven anecdotal and... . , essentially unproven anecdotal and... . . and... can i pause you there, you a- ear and... can i pause you there, you appear to — and... can i pause you there, you appear to give — and... can i pause you there, you appear to give the _ and... can i pause you there, you appear to give the suggestion - and... can i pause you there, you appear to give the suggestion the information— appear to give the suggestion the information you _ appear to give the suggestion the information you were _ appear to give the suggestion the information you were given - appear to give the suggestion the information you were given itself| appear to give the suggestion the i information you were given itself is contained _ information you were given itself is contained within— information you were given itself is contained within a _ information you were given itself is contained within a fog _ information you were given itself is contained within a fog of _ contained within a fog of uncertainty, _ contained within a fog of uncertainty, i— contained within a fog of uncertainty, i have - contained within a fog of uncertainty, i have pityi contained within a fog of. uncertainty, i have pity the contained within a fog of _ uncertainty, i have pity the meeting of the _ uncertainty, i have pity the meeting of the 21st _ uncertainty, i have pity the meeting of the 21st of — uncertainty, i have pity the meeting of the 21st of february _ uncertainty, i have pity the meeting of the 21st of february stated - uncertainty, i have pity the meeting of the 21st of february stated the i of the 21st of february stated the evidence — of the 21st of february stated the evidence suggests _ of the 21st of february stated the evidence suggests 40% - of the 21st of february stated the evidence suggests 40% of- of the 21st of february stated the evidence suggests 40% of our. evidence suggests 40% of our togicatty— evidence suggests 40% of our logically confirmed _ evidence suggests 40% of our logically confirmed cases - evidence suggests 40% of our logically confirmed cases or . logically confirmed cases or asymptomatic. _ logically confirmed cases or asymptomatic. that - logically confirmed cases or asymptomatic. that is- logically confirmed cases or asymptomatic. that is not. logically confirmed cases or - asymptomatic. that is not much of a fol, asymptomatic. that is not much of a fog, is— asymptomatic. that is not much of a fog, is it? _ asymptomatic. that is not much of a fog, is it? i— asymptomatic. that is not much of a for , is it? ., , . fog, is it? i did not see that evidence- — fog, is it? i did not see that evidence. 119469, - fog, is it? i did not see that| evidence. 119469, paragraph fog, is it? i did not see that - evidence. 119469, paragraph 3.4, . a i e evidence. 119469, paragraph 3.4, -a~e six, evidence. 119469, paragraph 3.4, page six. the _ evidence. 119469, paragraph 3.4, page six, the reference _ evidence. 119469, paragraph 3.4, page six, the reference to - evidence. 119469, paragraph 3.4, page six, the reference to john i page six, the reference tojohn edmonds. _ page six, the reference tojohn edmonds. we _ page six, the reference tojohn edmonds, we looked _ page six, the reference tojohn edmonds, we looked at - page six, the reference tojohn edmonds, we looked at it- page six, the reference tojohnl edmonds, we looked at it about page six, the reference tojohn- edmonds, we looked at it about ten minutes— edmonds, we looked at it about ten minutes ago — edmonds, we looked at it about ten minutes ago you _ edmonds, we looked at it about ten minutes ago-— edmonds, we looked at it about ten minutes ago. you are saying you did not see it minutes ago. you are saying you did rrot see it at — minutes ago. you are saying you did not see it at the _ minutes ago. you are saying you did not see it at the time? _ minutes ago. you are saying you did not see it at the time? all— minutes ago. you are saying you did not see it at the time? all right. - not see it at the time? all right. there was _ not see it at the time? all right. there was another _ not see it at the time? all right. there was another related - not see it at the time? all right. there was another related issue | not see it at the time? all right. - there was another related issue that you referred — there was another related issue that you referred to — there was another related issue that you referred to this _ there was another related issue that you referred to this in _ there was another related issue that you referred to this in the _ there was another related issue that you referred to this in the context i you referred to this in the context of the _ you referred to this in the context of the policy— you referred to this in the context of the policy of— you referred to this in the context of the policy of discharging - of the policy of discharging patients _ of the policy of discharging patients from _ of the policy of discharging patients from hospital - of the policy of discharging patients from hospital and | of the policy of discharging - patients from hospital and that is the testing — patients from hospital and that is the testing for— patients from hospital and that is the testing for asymptomatic - the testing for asymptomatic patients _ the testing for asymptomatic atients. , . the testing for asymptomatic atients. , , ., g , ., patients. just before... just to . ive patients. just before... just to rive one patients. just before... just to give one final _ patients. just before... just to give one final point _ patients. just before... just to give one final point of... - patients. just before... just to give one final point of... on i patients. just before... just to l give one final point of... on this contradistinction between what some scientists were saying in the scientific advice and for some of the policy was based, on the 24th of march, so it later than the times you discussed, public health england describes anecdotal cases of asymptomatic transmission but concludes these and i quote now do not provide evidence for asymptomatic transmission. that is the evidence that has been provided to me as conclusive so i am see anecdotally and unconfirmed data about this, i during this period and constantly pushing as i was from january for a conclusive science and the advice from public health england is these do not provide evidence for asymptomatic transmission so that is why there is an apparent distinction here and it is frustrating the suit was not cleared up earlier. you appear to be suggesting that you place greater— you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight _ you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight upon _ you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight upon what - you appear to be suggesting that you place greater weight upon what you l place greater weight upon what you were being — place greater weight upon what you were being told _ place greater weight upon what you were being told by _ place greater weight upon what you were being told by phe, _ place greater weight upon what you were being told by phe, perhaps i were being told by phe, perhaps formatty. — were being told by phe, perhaps formatty, then _ were being told by phe, perhaps formally, then the _ were being told by phe, perhaps formally, then the information i were being told by phe, perhaps - formally, then the information which was being _ formally, then the information which was being relayed both _ formally, then the information which was being relayed both directly- formally, then the information which was being relayed both directly and. was being relayed both directly and indirectly. — was being relayed both directly and indirectly, rooted _ was being relayed both directly and indirectly, rooted through - was being relayed both directly and. indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the cm0~ _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the cmo. it's _ indirectly, rooted through nervtag, sage. the (mo-— sage, the (mo. it's a very good question- _ sage, the (mo. it's a very good question- i'm — sage, the cmo. it's a very good question. i'm not— sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure - sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure i - sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure i saw - sage, the (mo. it's a very good question. i'm not sure i saw it l sage, the (mo. it's a very good i question. i'm not sure i saw it like that. i saw inconclusive evidence on the one hand and categoric conclusions based on the scientific method, that is, this is unproven, on the other.

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