lack of clarity over what the chinese official position - lack of clarity over what the chinese official position is, | lack of clarity over what the - chinese official position is, cml would _ chinese official position is, cml would expect that _ chinese official position is, cml would expect that very- chinese official position is, cml- would expect that very symptomatic persons _ would expect that very symptomatic persons would — would expect that very symptomatic persons would be _ would expect that very symptomatic persons would be more _ would expect that very symptomatic persons would be more likely- would expect that very symptomatic persons would be more likely to - persons would be more likely to transmit— persons would be more likely to transmit the _ persons would be more likely to transmit the virus, _ persons would be more likely to transmit the virus, and - persons would be more likely to transmit the virus, and then - persons would be more likely toi transmit the virus, and then cml persons would be more likely to - transmit the virus, and then cml was confident— transmit the virus, and then cml was confident hut— transmit the virus, and then cml was confident but could _ transmit the virus, and then cml was confident but could not _ transmit the virus, and then cml was confident but could not guarantee - confident but could not guarantee that asymptomatic _ confident but could not guarantee that asymptomatic persons - confident but could not guarantee that asymptomatic persons would confident but could not guarantee i that asymptomatic persons would be less contagious — that asymptomatic persons would be less contagious than _ that asymptomatic persons would be less contagious than heavily- less contagious than heavily symptomatic— less contagious than heavily symptomatic persons. - if you could hold that paragraph in your mind — if you could hold that paragraph in your mind and _ if you could hold that paragraph in your mind and we _ if you could hold that paragraph in your mind and we will— if you could hold that paragraph in your mind and we will go - if you could hold that paragraph in your mind and we will go to- if you could hold that paragraph in your mind and we will go to a - your mind and we will go to a meeting _ your mind and we will go to a meeting the _ your mind and we will go to a meeting the next _ your mind and we will go to a meeting the next day, - your mind and we will go to a meeting the next day, on- your mind and we will go to a i meeting the next day, on page your mind and we will go to a - meeting the next day, on page two of your documents, _ meeting the next day, on page two of your documents, the _ meeting the next day, on page two of your documents, the second - meeting the next day, on page two of your documents, the second bullet. your documents, the second bullet point, _ your documents, the second bullet point, cml— your documents, the second bullet point, cml commented _ your documents, the second bullet point, cml commented the - your documents, the second bullet point, cml commented the data i your documents, the second bullet. point, cml commented the data today seem slightly— point, cml commented the data today seem slightly less— point, cml commented the data today seem slightly less reassuring - point, cml commented the data today seem slightly less reassuring than - seem slightly less reassuring than yesterday — seem slightly less reassuring than yesterday. the _ seem slightly less reassuring than yesterday. the positive _ seem slightly less reassuring than yesterday. the positive is - seem slightly less reassuring than yesterday. the positive is that- yesterday. the positive is that there — yesterday. the positive is that there has— yesterday. the positive is that there has been— yesterday. the positive is that there has been no— yesterday. the positive is that there has been no sustained l there has been no sustained transmission _ there has been no sustained transmission out _ there has been no sustained transmission out of - there has been no sustained transmission out of china. . there has been no sustained . transmission out of china. cml commented _ transmission out of china. cml commented we _ transmission out of china. cml commented we cannot - transmission out of china. cml commented we cannot fully- transmission out of china. cml - commented we cannot fully understand whether— commented we cannot fully understand whether the _ commented we cannot fully understand whether the measures _ commented we cannot fully understand whether the measures imposed - commented we cannot fully understand whether the measures imposed by- whether the measures imposed by china _ whether the measures imposed by china have — whether the measures imposed by china have had _ whether the measures imposed by china have had any— whether the measures imposed by china have had any significant - china have had any significant impact — china have had any significant impact on _ china have had any significant impact on delay— china have had any significant| impact on delay transmission. china have had any significant - impact on delay transmission. and i think— impact on delay transmission. and i think if— impact on delay transmission. and i think if we _ impact on delay transmission. and i think if we scroll— impact on delay transmission. and i think if we scroll back _ impact on delay transmission. and i think if we scroll back out _ impact on delay transmission. and i think if we scroll back out there - impact on delay transmission. and i think if we scroll back out there is l think if we scroll back out there is then— think if we scroll back out there is then a _ think if we scroll back out there is then a reference _ think if we scroll back out there is then a reference to _ think if we scroll back out there is then a reference to germany - think if we scroll back out there is then a reference to germany and i think if we scroll back out there is| then a reference to germany and i think if we scroll back out there is - then a reference to germany and i am unlikely— then a reference to germany and i am unlikely to _ then a reference to germany and i am unlikely to he — then a reference to germany and i am unlikely to be able _ then a reference to germany and i am unlikely to be able to _ then a reference to germany and i am unlikely to be able to find _ then a reference to germany and i am unlikely to be able to find it... - unlikely to be able to find it... thank— unlikely to be able to find it... thank you _ unlikely to be able to find it... thank you its— unlikely to be able to find it... thank you. it's about - unlikely to be able to find it... thank you. it's about a - unlikely to be able to find it... thank you. it's about a third . unlikely to be able to find it... | thank you. it's about a third to unlikely to be able to find it... . thank you. it's about a third to a half of— thank you. it's about a third to a half of the — thank you. it's about a third to a half of the way _ thank you. it's about a third to a half of the way down _ thank you. it's about a third to a half of the way down the - thank you. it's about a third to a half of the way down the page, i thank you. it's about a third to a| half of the way down the page, if thank you. it's about a third to a - half of the way down the page, if we could _ half of the way down the page, if we could zoom — half of the way down the page, if we could zoom in— half of the way down the page, if we could zoom in on— half of the way down the page, if we could zoom in on that. _ half of the way down the page, if we could zoom in on that. pha - could zoom in on that. pha reiterated _ could zoom in on that. pha reiterated there _ could zoom in on that. pha reiterated there is - could zoom in on that. pha reiterated there is no - could zoom in on that. pha reiterated there is no test i could zoom in on that. pha l reiterated there is no test for asymptomatic— reiterated there is no test for asymptomatic patients - reiterated there is no test for asymptomatic patients and l reiterated there is no test for l asymptomatic patients and this reiterated there is no test for - asymptomatic patients and this would not he _ asymptomatic patients and this would not be possible — asymptomatic patients and this would not be possible without _ asymptomatic patients and this would not be possible without invasive - not be possible without invasive tests~ _ not be possible without invasive tests i— not be possible without invasive tests. i apologise _ not be possible without invasive tests. i apologise again - not be possible without invasive tests. i apologise again to - not be possible without invasive tests. i apologise again to you i not be possible without invasive| tests. i apologise again to you if you could — tests. i apologise again to you if you could just— tests. i apologise again to you if you could just bear— tests. i apologise again to you if you could just bear that - tests. i apologise again to you if i you could just bear that document tests. i apologise again to you if - you could just bear that document in mind and _ you could just bear that document in mind and then — you could just bear that document in mind and then we _ you could just bear that document in mind and then we will— you could just bear that document in mind and then we will look- you could just bear that document in mind and then we will look at - you could just bear that document in mind and then we will look at a - you could just bear that document in| mind and then we will look at a sage meeting _ mind and then we will look at a sage meeting of— mind and then we will look at a sage meeting of the — mind and then we will look at a sage meeting of the 4th _ mind and then we will look at a sage meeting of the 4th of _ mind and then we will look at a sage meeting of the 4th of february. - meeting of the 4th of february. 51925 — meeting of the 4th of february. 51925 page _ meeting of the 4th of february. 51925. page three. _ meeting of the 4th of february. 51925. page three. paragraph. meeting of the 4th of february. i 51925. page three. paragraph 19. asymptomatic— 51925. page three. paragraph 19. asymptomatic transmission - 51925. page three. paragraph 19. l asymptomatic transmission cannot 51925. page three. paragraph 19. - asymptomatic transmission cannot be ruled asymptomatic transmission cannot be ruted out— asymptomatic transmission cannot be ruled out an _ asymptomatic transmission cannot be ruled out an transmission _ asymptomatic transmission cannot be ruled out an transmission from - ruled out an transmission from mildly— ruled out an transmission from mildly symptomatic— ruled out an transmission from mildly symptomatic individualsj ruled out an transmission from . mildly symptomatic individuals is likely _ mildly symptomatic individuals is likely and — mildly symptomatic individuals is likely. and t'm _ mildly symptomatic individuals is likely. and i'm going _ mildly symptomatic individuals is likely. and i'm going to - mildly symptomatic individuals is l likely. and i'm going to summarise the remainder— likely. and i'm going to summarise the remainder of— likely. and i'm going to summarise the remainder of the _ likely. and i'm going to summarise the remainder of the material- likely. and i'm going to summarise the remainder of the material part| the remainder of the material part one, _ the remainder of the material part one. there — the remainder of the material part one. there is — the remainder of the material part one. there is a _ the remainder of the material part one, there is a meeting _ the remainder of the material part one, there is a meeting on- the remainder of the material part one, there is a meeting on the - the remainder of the material part| one, there is a meeting on the 21st of fehruary— one, there is a meeting on the 21st of february 119469 _ one, there is a meeting on the 21st of february 119469 page _ one, there is a meeting on the 21st of february 119469 page six. - of february 119469 page six. paragraph— of february 119469 page six. paragraph m _ of february 119469 page six. paragraph 3.4. the - of february 119469 page six. j paragraph 3.4. the evidence of february 119469 page six. - paragraph 3.4. the evidence suggests professor— paragraph 3.4. the evidence suggests professorjohn— paragraph 3.4. the evidence suggests professorjohn edmonds_ paragraph 3.4. the evidence suggests professorjohn edmonds commented i paragraph 3.4. the evidence suggests. professorjohn edmonds commented on this after— professorjohn edmonds commented on this after the _ professorjohn edmonds commented on this after the meeting _ professorjohn edmonds commented on this after the meeting taking _ professorjohn edmonds commented on this after the meeting taking into - this after the meeting taking into account— this after the meeting taking into account the — this after the meeting taking into account the issue _ this after the meeting taking into account the issue of _ this after the meeting taking into. account the issue of asymptomatic cases— account the issue of asymptomatic cases where — account the issue of asymptomatic cases where the _ account the issue of asymptomatic cases where the evidence - account the issue of asymptomatic| cases where the evidence suggests 40% of— cases where the evidence suggests 40% of biologically _ cases where the evidence suggests 40% of biologically confirmed - cases where the evidence suggests| 40% of biologically confirmed cases are asymptomatic _ 40% of biologically confirmed cases are asymptomatic and _ 40% of biologically confirmed cases are asymptomatic and that - 40% of biologically confirmed cases are asymptomatic and that is - 40% of biologically confirmed cases are asymptomatic and that is of- are asymptomatic and that is of course — are asymptomatic and that is of course in — are asymptomatic and that is of course in the _ are asymptomatic and that is of course in the context _ are asymptomatic and that is of course in the context of- are asymptomatic and that is of course in the context of the - are asymptomatic and that is of. course in the context of the virus at large — course in the context of the virus at large and _ course in the context of the virus at large and in— course in the context of the virus at large and in singapore, - course in the context of the virus at large and in singapore, south| course in the context of the virus - at large and in singapore, south and japan _ at large and in singapore, south and japan so— at large and in singapore, south and japan so that — at large and in singapore, south and japan. so that material— at large and in singapore, south and japan. so that material together- japan. so that material together with another— japan. so that material together with another sage _ japan. so that material together with another sage meeting - japan. so that material together with another sage meeting on l japan. so that material together. with another sage meeting on the japan. so that material together- with another sage meeting on the 4th of february. _ with another sage meeting on the 4th of february, tends _ with another sage meeting on the 4th of february, tends to _ with another sage meeting on the 4th of february, tends to suggest - of february, tends to suggest that what the _ of february, tends to suggest that what the issue _ of february, tends to suggest that what the issue was _ of february, tends to suggest that what the issue was was _ of february, tends to suggest that what the issue was was further- of february, tends to suggest that what the issue was was further ori what the issue was was further or not there — what the issue was was further or not there was _ what the issue was was further or not there was a _ what the issue was was further or not there was a significant - what the issue was was further or not there was a significant level l what the issue was was further ori not there was a significant level of transmissibility_ not there was a significant level of transmissibility in _ not there was a significant level of transmissibility in persons - not there was a significant level of transmissibility in persons who - not there was a significant level of| transmissibility in persons who are asymptomatic, _ transmissibility in persons who are asymptomatic, that _ transmissibility in persons who are asymptomatic, that is _ transmissibility in persons who are asymptomatic, that is to _ transmissibility in persons who are asymptomatic, that is to say- transmissibility in persons who are . asymptomatic, that is to say showing no symptoms — asymptomatic, that is to say showing no symptoms. putting _ asymptomatic, that is to say showing no symptoms. putting it— asymptomatic, that is to say showing no symptoms. putting it another- asymptomatic, that is to say showing | no symptoms. putting it another way, if they— no symptoms. putting it another way, if they are _ no symptoms. putting it another way, if they are not — no symptoms. putting it another way, if they are not symptomatic, - no symptoms. putting it another way, if they are not symptomatic, they - if they are not symptomatic, they are not— if they are not symptomatic, they are not showing _ if they are not symptomatic, they are not showing symptoms, - if they are not symptomatic, they are not showing symptoms, then| if they are not symptomatic, they - are not showing symptoms, then there transmissibility, — are not showing symptoms, then there transmissibility, the _ are not showing symptoms, then there transmissibility, the degree _ are not showing symptoms, then there transmissibility, the degree of- transmissibility, the degree of contagious— transmissibility, the degree of contagious nurse _ transmissibility, the degree of contagious nurse is— transmissibility, the degree of contagious nurse is likely- transmissibility, the degree of contagious nurse is likely to l transmissibility, the degree of| contagious nurse is likely to be lower — contagious nurse is likely to be lower this— contagious nurse is likely to be lower. this material— contagious nurse is likely to be lower. this material does- contagious nurse is likely to be lower. this material does not. contagious nurse is likely to be . lower. this material does not say contagious nurse is likely to be - lower. this material does not say in terms _ lower. this material does not say in terms there — lower. this material does not say in terms there is— lower. this material does not say in terms there is no _ lower. this material does not say in terms there is no asymptomatic - terms there is no asymptomatic transmission. _ terms there is no asymptomatic transmission, it— terms there is no asymptomatic transmission, it simply- terms there is no asymptomatic transmission, it simply says - terms there is no asymptomatic transmission, it simply says it. transmission, it simply says it reflects — transmission, it simply says it reflects the _ transmission, it simply says it reflects the developing - transmission, it simply says it. reflects the developing learning, it's not— reflects the developing learning, it's not likety— reflects the developing learning, it's not likely but _ reflects the developing learning, it's not likely but it _ reflects the developing learning, it's not likely but it becomes - it's not likely but it becomes increasingly— it's not likely but it becomes increasingly likely— it's not likely but it becomes increasingly likely and - it's not likely but it becomesi increasingly likely and indeed it's not likely but it becomes - increasingly likely and indeed by the meeting _ increasingly likely and indeed by the meeting of— increasingly likely and indeed by the meeting of the _ increasingly likely and indeed by the meeting of the 21st - increasingly likely and indeed by the meeting of the 21st of- increasingly likely and indeed by the meeting of the 21st of four l the meeting of the 21st of four iireak— the meeting of the 21st of four break their— the meeting of the 21st of four break their escape _ the meeting of the 21st of four break their escape material. the meeting of the 21st of four break their escape material to| break their escape material to suggest — break their escape material to suggest there _ break their escape material to suggest there is _ break their escape material to| suggest there is asymptomatic transmission. _ suggest there is asymptomatic transmission. yes. _ suggest there is asymptomatic transmission. yes. so- suggest there is asymptomatic transmission. yes. so what - suggest there is asymptomatic transmission. yes. so what we suggest there is asymptomatic - transmission. yes. so what we are told about— transmission. yes. so what we are told about that _ transmission. yes. so what we are told about that degree _ transmission. yes. so what we are told about that degree of- told about that degree of difference. _ told about that degree of difference. we _ told about that degree of difference. we are - told about that degree of difference. we are told l told about that degree of- difference. we are told there is no asymptomatic— difference. we are told there is no asymptomatic transmission- difference. we are told there is no asymptomatic transmission whichl difference. we are told there is no. asymptomatic transmission which is what you _ asymptomatic transmission which is what you appear _ asymptomatic transmission which is what you appear to _ asymptomatic transmission which is what you appear to have _ asymptomatic transmission which is what you appear to have been - asymptomatic transmission which isj what you appear to have been told? or were _ what you appear to have been told? or were you — what you appear to have been told? or were you told _ what you appear to have been told? or were you told it _ what you appear to have been told? or were you told it is _ what you appear to have been told? or were you told it is very— or were you told it is very difficult _ or were you told it is very difficult to _ or were you told it is very difficult to be _ or were you told it is very difficult to be sure, - or were you told it is very difficult to be sure, there| or were you told it is very. difficult to be sure, there are or were you told it is very- difficult to be sure, there are no certainties — difficult to be sure, there are no certainties in _ difficult to be sure, there are no certainties in this _ difficult to be sure, there are no certainties in this sphere - difficult to be sure, there are no certainties in this sphere but - difficult to be sure, there are no certainties in this sphere but it's possible — certainties in this sphere but it's possihle and _ certainties in this sphere but it's possible and then _ certainties in this sphere but it's possible and then likely- certainties in this sphere but it's possible and then likely to - certainties in this sphere but it's possible and then likely to be i possible and then likely to be asymptomatic— possible and then likely to be asymptomatic transmission. possible and then likely to be . asymptomatic transmission and possible and then likely to be - asymptomatic transmission and of course _ asymptomatic transmission and of course ultimately— asymptomatic transmission and of course ultimately as _ asymptomatic transmission and of course ultimately as you - asymptomatic transmission and of course ultimately as you know- asymptomatic transmission and ofi course ultimately as you know very well, _ course ultimately as you know very well, the _ course ultimately as you know very well, the precautionary— course ultimately as you know very well, the precautionary approach . course ultimately as you know very well, the precautionary approach is applied. _ well, the precautionary approach is applied. we — well, the precautionary approach is applied, we cannot _ well, the precautionary approach is applied, we cannot take _ well, the precautionary approach is applied, we cannot take the - well, the precautionary approach is applied, we cannot take the risk. applied, we cannot take the risk that is— applied, we cannot take the risk that is not. _ applied, we cannot take the risk that is not, we _ applied, we cannot take the risk that is not, we had _ applied, we cannot take the risk that is not, we had better- applied, we cannot take the risk that is not, we had better workl applied, we cannot take the risk. that is not, we had better work on the premise — that is not, we had better work on the premise that _ that is not, we had better work on the premise that there _ that is not, we had better work on the premise that there is. - that is not, we had better work on the premise that there is. i- the premise that there is. i apologise _ the premise that there is. i apotogise for— the premise that there is. i apologise for a _ the premise that there is. i apologise for a very - the premise that there is. ij apologise for a very long... the premise that there is. i- apologise fora very long... it's the premise that there is. i apologise for a very long... it's an incredibly important _ apologise for a very long... it's an incredibly important subject - apologise for a very long... it's an incredibly important subject and l apologise for a very long... it's an | incredibly important subject and of the frustration to be at the time and as i said, my single greatest regret with hindsight was not pushing on this harder. and ultimately, not overruling the formal scientific advice that i was receiving. so there is only one thing in yoursummary receiving. so there is only one thing in your summary that i could challenge which is that the who statement of the 2nd of april that you referred to in fact said and i quote no documented asymptomatic transmission, it was done on the 3rd of april that the cdc came forward with a survey which demonstrated to a point of scientific clarity that there was highly likely to be a symptomatic transmission and that was that cdc document that i remember clearly at the time that was instrumental in changing the scientific evidence that underpinned the policy advice in the uk. it was aware from very early on of the concerns that there may be asymptomatic transmission, as you've noted i raised the question on the 27th of january, noted i raised the question on the 27th ofjanuary, i noted i raised the question on the 27th of january, i also discussed the question with my opposite number in germany to him i was close. i asked the director—general of the who about the evidence from china and he described chinese report which i had seen in newspapers but came formally although i do not recall seeing that at the time, he described those as a translation error and within the uk system they were also described to me as a translation error. so i was aware of this from january, i understood the implications of significant asymptomatic transmission and my recollection is i kept on pushing on this question injanuary and february, especially. it became the settled international view that policy should be based on the transmission mechanism of sars as it is commonly known because there was not scientifically robust information to contradict that and here is an example of for the scientific method which i enormously respect comes into challenge in a period of enormous change and uncertainty. because the scientists, to be able to base policy on a different assumption wanted concrete scientifically credible evidence and what i had was essentially anecdotal evidence and it was only when the cdc had performed this formal study which they published in the 3rd of april that the scientific establishment switched position. it's understandable that scientists base their advice on the scientific method and so it is a problem because there are other examples without wishing to go on too long, other examples like in the discovery of treatment and the rolling out of treatment, that some countries move policy ahead of a formal scientific conclusion and got it wrong because the science actually if you waited for the scientific method to be applied you got the answer that a specific job applied you got the answer that a specificjob did not make a difference but it delayed the formal scientific advice telling us that we should base policy on an assumption that there can be asymptomatic transmission. i am sorry its a long answer but it's a very important subject. answer but it's a very important sub'ect. ~ , , ., . , subject. indeed. my question was framed exclusively _ subject. indeed. my question was framed exclusively about - subject. indeed. my question was framed exclusively about your - framed exclusively about your understanding. _ framed exclusively about your understanding. in— framed exclusively about your understanding. in your- framed exclusively about your understanding. in your book. framed exclusively about your . understanding. in your book you repeatedly— understanding. in your book you repeatedly state _ understanding. in your book you repeatedly state you _ understanding. in your book you repeatedly state you were - understanding. in your book you repeatedly state you were told i understanding. in your book you i repeatedly state you were told that the coronavirus _ repeatedly state you were told that the coronavirus cannot _ repeatedly state you were told that the coronavirus cannot be - repeatedly state you were told that the coronavirus cannot be passed l repeatedly state you were told thati the coronavirus cannot be passed on try someone — the coronavirus cannot be passed on by someone without _ the coronavirus cannot be passed on by someone without symptoms. - the coronavirus cannot be passed on| by someone without symptoms. find the coronavirus cannot be passed on by someone without symptoms. and the revious six by someone without symptoms. and the previous six coronavirus _ by someone without symptoms. and the previous six coronavirus is _ by someone without symptoms. and the previous six coronavirus is known - by someone without symptoms. and the previous six coronavirus is known to - previous six coronavirus is known to affect humans were not transmitted symptomatically. in affect humans were not transmitted symptomatically— symptomatically. in evidence today ou symptomatically. in evidence today you acknowledge _ symptomatically. in evidence today you acknowledge there _ symptomatically. in evidence today you acknowledge there were - symptomatically. in evidence today i you acknowledge there were concerns there may— you acknowledge there were concerns there may he — you acknowledge there were concerns there may be asymptomatic— there may be asymptomatic transmission _ there may be asymptomatic transmission and _ there may be asymptomatic transmission and if - there may be asymptomatic transmission and if you - there may be asymptomatic transmission and if you just| there may be asymptomatic- transmission and if you just allow mew _ transmission and if you just allow mew and — transmission and if you just allow mew and in— transmission and if you just allow mew and in your— transmission and if you just allow me... and in your statement, - transmission and if you just allow| me... and in your statement, you transmission and if you just allow - me... and in your statement, you say it is your— me... and in your statement, you say it is your single — me... and in your statement, you say it is your single greatest _ me... and in your statement, you say it is your single greatest regret - it is your single greatest regret that you — it is your single greatest regret that you did _ it is your single greatest regret that you did not _ it is your single greatest regret that you did not push— it is your single greatest regret that you did not push harder. it is your single greatest regret . that you did not push harder back against _ that you did not push harder back against the — that you did not push harder back against the notion _ that you did not push harder back against the notion by— that you did not push harder back against the notion by implicationl against the notion by implication that you — against the notion by implication that you were _ against the notion by implication that you were told _ against the notion by implication that you were told there - against the notion by implication that you were told there was - against the notion by implication that you were told there was no| that you were told there was no asymptomatic— that you were told there was no asymptomatic transmission. - that you were told there was no i asymptomatic transmission. yes. that you were told there was no - asymptomatic transmission. yes. but you cannot _ asymptomatic transmission. yes. but you cannot live — asymptomatic transmission. yes. but you cannot live together. _ asymptomatic transmission. yes. but you cannot live together. i— asymptomatic transmission. yes. but you cannot live together. i think - you cannot live together. i think you cannot live together. i think you were — you cannot live together. i think you were told _ you cannot live together. i think you were told and _ you cannot live together. i think you were told and you _ you cannot live together. i think you were told and you did - you cannot live together. i think you were told and you did not. you were told and you did not understand _ you were told and you did not understand the _ you were told and you did not understand the country, - you were told and you did not understand the country, you. you were told and you did not - understand the country, you were told there — understand the country, you were totd there is— understand the country, you were told there is no— understand the country, you were told there is no a _ understand the country, you were told there is no a transmission. understand the country, you were told there is no a transmission or| told there is no a transmission or you were — told there is no a transmission or you were told _ told there is no a transmission or you were told of _ told there is no a transmission or you were told of concerns - told there is no a transmission or you were told of concerns that i told there is no a transmission or. you were told of concerns that there may he _ you were told of concerns that there may be asymptomatic _ you were told of concerns that there may be asymptomatic transmission i you were told of concerns that there . may be asymptomatic transmission and those concerns— may be asymptomatic transmission and those concerns crystallised _ may be asymptomatic transmission and those concerns crystallised over - those concerns crystallised over time _ those concerns crystallised over time. ~ . . those concerns crystallised over time. . , . those concerns crystallised over time. ~ . , . , . time. which is it? i have explained and i will try _ time. which is it? i have explained and i will try to _ time. which is it? i have explained and i will try to do _ time. which is it? i have explained and i will try to do a _ time. which is it? i have explained and i will try to do a better- time. which is it? i have explained and i will try to do a betterjob - time. which is it? i have explained and i will try to do a betterjob of l and i will try to do a betterjob of explaining. and i will try to do a better “ob of explaining.— and i will try to do a better “ob of ex-ulainin. ., , . explaining. no, please, if you have a bear with — explaining. no, please, if you have a bear with us. _ explaining. no, please, if you have a bear with us. which _ explaining. no, please, if you have a bear with us. which of _ explaining. no, please, if you have a bear with us. which of those - explaining. no, please, if you have a bear with us. which of those is i a bear with us. which of those is the correct — a bear with us. which of those is the correct position? _ a bear with us. which of those is the correct position? what- a bear with us. which of those is the correct position? what is- a bear with us. which of those is. the correct position? what is your understanding. _ the correct position? what is your understanding, it— the correct position? what is your understanding, it is— the correct position? what is your understanding, it is one _ the correct position? what is your understanding, it is one of- the correct position? what is your understanding, it is one of the - understanding, it is one of the other? — understanding, it is one of the other? ., , ., ., ., other? no, it is not one of the other? no, it is not one of the other which — other? no, it is not one of the other which is _ other? no, it is not one of the other which is what _ other? no, it is not one of the other which is what i - other? no, it is not one of the other which is what i was - other? no, it is not one of the| other which is what i was trying other? no, it is not one of the - other which is what i was trying to explain. i will give you my evidence of what i knew and felt and understood at the time. in late january i became aware of concerns there may have been asymptomatic transmission from china, from germany. i challenge the system on whether the rows or not and what came back was that yes there was anecdotal evidence that there may have been asymptomatic transmission but that we should not base policy on that assumption. instead, this is what was said to me, the reasonable assumption should be made that covid transmits as source did and if you read for instance the 2nd of april document on transmission advice and guidance for care homes, in a public health england explicitly state that policy is based on an assumption that transmission of covid follows the same transmission mechanism as source because there is not yet enough reliable evidence to update that. that assumption. so that is why what you think or two incompatible statements or bestue stop we were worried about the anecdotal evidence, i was worried about it from january and there was some evidence, often with caveats, often with unlikely written by rt but policy was based on an assumption that covid transmitted the same way as source in other words with no asymptomatic transmission and that was a source of frustration with me and i could not get public health england to change it because it was a clinical and scientific decision and have a secretary of state but the frustration i had was with hindsight i should have said that maybe your scientific evidence and advice to me however, we shall base policy on an assumption that there is asymptomatic transmission. there would have been downsides to that. there's reason is that we did not do that. but essentially, my hunch which was that there is, i should have used to overrun the science but you can understand why i that on a couple of occasions and we can go through those if you like, for instance the returners from wuhan which will require to be quarantined on the scientific advice was to not quarantine them. that is what explains the apparent incompatibility with the statements that you set out and that s both the evidence at the time and howl that you set out and that s both the evidence at the time and how i feel about it now. in evidence at the time and how i feel about it now-— about it now. in any event, it was obvious, wasn't _ about it now. in any event, it was obvious, wasn't it, _ about it now. in any event, it was obvious, wasn't it, from - about it now. in any event, it was obvious, wasn't it, from the - obvious, wasn't it, from the lockdown— obvious, wasn't it, from the lockdown in— obvious, wasn't it, from the lockdown in italy, _ obvious, wasn't it, from the lockdown in italy, in - obvious, wasn't it, from the lockdown in italy, in the - obvious, wasn't it, from the lockdown in italy, in the 11 l lockdown in italy, in the 11 municipalities— lockdown in italy, in the 11 municipalities to - lockdown in italy, in the 11 municipalities to which - lockdown in italy, in the 11| municipalities to which you lockdown in italy, in the 11 - municipalities to which you refer in your statement _ municipalities to which you refer in your statement on— municipalities to which you refer in your statement on the _ municipalities to which you refer in your statement on the 21st - municipalities to which you refer in your statement on the 21st of- municipalities to which you refer in your statement on the 21st of the i your statement on the 21st of the property— your statement on the 21st of the property and _ your statement on the 21st of the property and the _ your statement on the 21st of the property and the data _ your statement on the 21st of the property and the data from - your statement on the 21st of the property and the data from the l property and the data from the diamond — property and the data from the diamond princess— property and the data from the diamond princess out - property and the data from the diamond princess out the - property and the data from the i diamond princess out the cruise ship. _ diamond princess out the cruise ship. on — diamond princess out the cruise ship. on which— diamond princess out the cruise ship, on which uk _ diamond princess out the cruise ship, on which uk nationals, . diamond princess out the cruise. ship, on which uk nationals, that there _ ship, on which uk nationals, that there was, — ship, on which uk nationals, that there was, actually, _ ship, on which uk nationals, that there was, actually, very- there was, actually, very significant _ there was, actually, very significant asymptomaticj significant asymptomatic transmission. _ significant asymptomatic transmission. so - significant asymptomatic transmission. so would i significant asymptomatic. transmission. so would you significant asymptomatic- transmission. so would you agree significant asymptomatic— transmission. so would you agree by those _ transmission. so would you agree by those dates. — transmission. so would you agree by those dates, the _ transmission. so would you agree by those dates, the 22nd _ transmission. so would you agree by those dates, the 22nd of— transmission. so would you agree by those dates, the 22nd of thursday, i those dates, the 22nd of thursday, the lockdown — those dates, the 22nd of thursday, the lockdown in— those dates, the 22nd of thursday, the lockdown in italy— those dates, the 22nd of thursday, the lockdown in italy and _ those dates, the 22nd of thursday, the lockdown in italy and the - the lockdown in italy and the diamond _ the lockdown in italy and the diamond princess— the lockdown in italy and the diamond princess data - the lockdown in italy and the diamond princess data of- diamond princess data of mid—february, _ diamond princess data of mid—february, there - diamond princess data of mid—february, there was diamond princess data of- mid—february, there was clear asymptomatic— mid—february, there was clear asymptomatic transmission? i mid—february, there was clear. asymptomatic transmission? h0. mid-february, there was clear asymptomatic transmission? no. i would say with _ asymptomatic transmission? no. i would say with hindsight _ asymptomatic transmission? no. i would say with hindsight that - asymptomatic transmission? would say with hindsight that is asymptomatic transmission?- would say with hindsight that is no obvious at the time there was a fog of uncertainty over this question as is clear in all of the documentation that you cited. is clear in all of the documentation that you cited-— that you cited. your department received reports _ that you cited. your department received reports showing - that you cited. your department received reports showing from l that you cited. your department l received reports showing from the diamond _ received reports showing from the diamond princess— received reports showing from the diamond princess outbreak- received reports showing from the diamond princess outbreak that i diamond princess outbreak that around — diamond princess outbreak that around 18% _ diamond princess outbreak that around 18% of _ diamond princess outbreak that around 18% of the _ diamond princess outbreak that around 18% of the infected - diamond princess outbreak that . around 18% of the infected people diamond princess outbreak that - around 18% of the infected people on board _ around 18% of the infected people on board the _ around 18% of the infected people on board the boat— around 18% of the infected people on board the boat and _ around 18% of the infected people on board the boat and it _ around 18% of the infected people on board the boat and it was _ around 18% of the infected people on board the boat and it was a - around 18% of the infected people on board the boat and it was a closed i board the boat and it was a closed environment, _ board the boat and it was a closed environment, has _ board the boat and it was a closed environment, has shown - board the boat and it was a closed environment, has shown no- board the boat and it was a closed - environment, has shown no symptoms. it environment, has shown no symptoms. it was _ environment, has shown no symptoms. it was in _ environment, has shown no symptoms. it was in the _ environment, has shown no symptoms. it was in the press _ environment, has shown no symptoms. it was in the press. refer— environment, has shown no symptoms. it was in the press. refer to _ environment, has shown no symptoms. it was in the press. refer to nch - it was in the press. refer to nch memoranda~ _ it was in the press. refer to nch memoranda~ it— it was in the press. refer to nch memoranda. it was _ it was in the press. refer to nch memoranda. it was obvious - it was in the press. refer to nchi memoranda. it was obvious there it was in the press. refer to nch - memoranda. it was obvious there was asymptomatic— memoranda. it was obvious there was asymptomatic transmission. - memoranda. it was obvious there was asymptomatic transmission. 50 - memoranda. it was obvious there was asymptomatic transmission.— asymptomatic transmission. so why couldn't i get _ asymptomatic transmission. so why couldn't i get public _ asymptomatic transmission. so why couldn't i get public health - asymptomatic transmission. so why couldn't i get public health england| couldn't i get public health england to change the scientific advice to base the assumption of transmission on asymptomatic transmission as opposed to symptomatic transmission? i hope you can understand how frustrating this was. the answer the question, here i am myself because i essentially was in the pro lets worry about asymptomatic transmission camp but the frustration was the understandably, from their point of view and here i am putting myself in their shoes, public health england scientists said we do not have concrete evidence that who 2nd of april, no documented asymptomatic transmission of the international scientific consensus was that