all manufacturers globally would start to follow this standard. before i could do that, i wanted this independent inquiry to see at the evidence backed it up. i do think there are things like that that can be done that make huge difference because i was really taken back by some other things i learned as health for example, i think around one third of people in ict units with covid, the most seriously ill, were from ethnic minority backgrounds, which was disproportionate to the people from the general population. i think medical instruments had a big issue, big role to play. figs medical instruments had a big issue, big role to play-— big role to play. as you will be aware, there _ big role to play. as you will be aware, there will _ big role to play. as you will be aware, there will be _ big role to play. as you will be aware, there will be a - big role to play. as you will be aware, there will be a furtherl aware, there will be a further module — aware, there will be a further module which will look at those matters — module which will look at those matters. my lady, that concludes my questions _ matters. my lady, that concludes my cuestions. ., , ., ., questions. could i 'ust asked, one ofthe questions. could i 'ust asked, one of the lessons — questions. could i 'ust asked, one of the lessons to — questions. could ijust asked, one of the lessons to be _ questions. could ijust asked, one of the lessons to be learnt - questions. could ijust asked, one of the lessons to be learnt is - questions. could ijust asked, one of the lessons to be learnt is to i of the lessons to be learnt is to resurrect — of the lessons to be learnt is to resurrect your _ of the lessons to be learnt is to resurrect your idea _ of the lessons to be learnt is to resurrect your idea of _ of the lessons to be learnt is to resurrect your idea of a - of the lessons to be learnt is to resurrect your idea of a centre. of the lessons to be learnt is to . resurrect your idea of a centre for pandemic— resurrect your idea of a centre for pandemic preparedness. - resurrect your idea of a centre for pandemic preparedness. it- resurrect your idea of a centre for pandemic preparedness. it wasn't my idea. it pandemic preparedness. it wasn't my idea- it was — pandemic preparedness. it wasn't my idea. it was the _ pandemic preparedness. it wasn't my idea. it was the prime _ pandemic preparedness. it wasn't my idea. it was the prime minister's - idea. it was the prime minister's idea. it was the prime minister's idea puzzle i happen to agree with that. any other lessons to be learned? yes, ithink that. any other lessons to be learned? yes, i think there are many lessons to be learned. in terms of cross government working, i think there can death only be improvements in that. we've touched on it in this evidence session in a couple of examples, but i think there needs to be better systems put in place to get all government departments working when you have a single goal. i have seen when it works, when i was the communities secretary we had a cross government group for rough sleeping and it could get done. that can happen. one final point i make when you asked me that question, nhs capacity and capability. as you know, a number of countries to different approaches, there were a lot of similarities, but in responding to a pandemic, your available health capacity has a big, is a big determiner of how you respond to the pandemic. we don't have many beds per head in the uk. in england, it's around 100,000. if you look at germany, france, they have more than triple, sometimes quadruple the number of beds. similar to icy units, doctors and nurses per head. capacity is an issue, and this has been a long—running issue in successive governments —— i see you units. the nhs model has to be looked at, and we should have a role commission and get political agreement on a new way to provide the nhs with the resources needs. nhs capacity is key to deal with the next pandemic. i don't know if you can see, down the pillar _ don't know if you can see, down the mar, , ., ., don't know if you can see, down the illar. ,., ., ., ., ., don't know if you can see, down the illar. ,., ., . ., ., , , pillar. good afternoon. i represent the cobra 19 _ pillar. good afternoon. i represent the cobra 19 families _ pillar. good afternoon. i represent the cobra 19 families for _ pillar. good afternoon. i represent the cobra 19 families forjustice . the cobra 19 families forjustice recovery~ — the cobra 19 families forjustice recovery~ i_ the cobra 19 families forjustice recovery. i have three short topics. the first— recovery. i have three short topics. the first is— recovery. i have three short topics. the first is going back to the weekly— the first is going back to the weekly meetings you set up injune 2021~ _ weekly meetings you set up injune 2021~ it's _ weekly meetings you set up injune 2021~ it's a — weekly meetings you set up injune 2021. it's a discrete issue. was advance — 2021. it's a discrete issue. was advance notice given for these meetings by way of an agenda? if so, how long _ meetings by way of an agenda? if so, how long in _ meetings by way of an agenda? if so, how long in advance? which weekly meeting? _ how long in advance? which weekly meeting? this is your witness statement, paragraph seven., with the devolved nations. i represent the devolved nations. i represent the welsh — the devolved nations. i represent the welsh parade. i am asking about the welsh parade. i am asking about the devolved administration, you said it _ the devolved administration, you said it wasn't something your predecessor did on a regular basis. the wreck— predecessor did on a regular basis. the wreck whether there was an advance — the wreck whether there was an advance notice for there was advance notice. in my first meeting — there was advance notice. in my first meeting l — there was advance notice. in my first meeting i said _ there was advance notice. in my first meeting i said to _ there was advance notice. in my first meeting i said to my - first meeting i said to my counterparts we would have meetings on a weekly basis. i said i would try to do those every friday around five o'clock if i could. if not, the same time on thursday. we did agreed that because things were fast moving, something might come up that doesn't allow the meeting to take place at the exact same time. during the week leading onto it, the timing would be confirmed. for these meetings, we would have an agenda. i would obviously, my department avoid input into it and so with the devolved administrations and give me advance notice of things they may wish to raise. and also in every meeting we would have basically any other business. if there was something someone wanted to bring up again, we could discuss them towards the end. ,, .., again, we could discuss them towards the end. ,, _, .,, . again, we could discuss them towards the end. ,, .,,. , again, we could discuss them towards theend. ,, ,, ,. the end. second topic is public health messaging _ the end. second topic is public health messaging and - the end. second topic is public| health messaging and concerns the end. second topic is public - health messaging and concerns around a unified _ health messaging and concerns around a unified approach will be doubled administrations. it is to see to what _ administrations. it is to see to what extent you can assist with this _ what extent you can assist with this. you've explained this morning you recognise the importance of coordinating with the devolved administrations. as you said, you recognise — administrations. as you said, you recognise there were huge issues of public— recognise there were huge issues of public confidence if we can all be seen _ public confidence if we can all be seen to— public confidence if we can all be seen to work in together. there have been _ seen to work in together. there have been concerns raised before this inquiry— been concerns raised before this inquiry by— been concerns raised before this inquiry by the first minister for the devolved administrations. one of the devolved administrations. one of the concerns relates to a lack of clarity _ the concerns relates to a lack of clarity in — the concerns relates to a lack of clarity in public health messaging by the _ clarity in public health messaging by the uk government about the geographical application of their decisions. i think it is probably fair to— decisions. i think it is probably fair to say— decisions. i think it is probably fair to say lots of these concerns were _ fair to say lots of these concerns were largely being raised during the time of— were largely being raised during the time of your predecessor. there is one document i want to ask you about, — one document i want to ask you about, i— one document i want to ask you about, i did _ one document i want to ask you about, i did say cobra meeting in 202i _ about, i did say cobra meeting in 202i there — about, i did say cobra meeting in 2021. there we have it on screen. we can see _ 2021. there we have it on screen. we can see 10th — 2021. there we have it on screen. we can see 10th of december 2020 one, three _ can see 10th of december 2020 one, three o'clock, and you are present. you can— three o'clock, and you are present. you can see — three o'clock, and you are present. you can see nicola sturgeon, mick redford _ you can see nicola sturgeon, mick redford i— you can see nicola sturgeon, mick redford. i want to ask you about page _ redford. i want to ask you about page five. — redford. i want to ask you about page five, paragraph 17 onwards. i will read _ page five, paragraph 17 onwards. i will read it— page five, paragraph 17 onwards. i will read it out. here we have a contribution from the director of communications, and they said they were adopting an aligned approach to ensure _ were adopting an aligned approach to ensure messaging across the uk responded to the emerging picture. that communications teams across the uk needed _ that communications teams across the uk needed to accurately reflect policy _ uk needed to accurately reflect policy changes by each nation, and then it _ policy changes by each nation, and then it goes on about the cross autumn— then it goes on about the cross autumn uk issues. and thenjust for completeness, paragraph 18 over the page. _ completeness, paragraph 18 over the page. we _ completeness, paragraph 18 over the page, we see an intervention from yourself— page, we see an intervention from yourself why you are stating it is important — yourself why you are stating it is important to work together on the response — important to work together on the response to omicron, consistency is important _ response to omicron, consistency is important. what i want you to focus is paragraph 17 and those words in the middle, that communications teams _ the middle, that communications teams across the uk needed to accurately reflect policy changes by each nation. just thinking about that now. — each nation. just thinking about that now, do you understand that as a reference — that now, do you understand that as a reference to this issue ijust asked — a reference to this issue ijust asked you _ a reference to this issue ijust asked you about? the territorial scope _ asked you about? the territorial scope of — asked you about? the territorial scope of policies not always being adequately explained in government, and that— adequately explained in government, and that being a reminder, certainly in december2021, and that being a reminder, certainly in december 2021, that needed to be improved? _ in december 2021, that needed to be imroved? , ~ , in december 2021, that needed to be imroved? , ,, , , improved? yes, i think this is callin: improved? yes, i think this is calling for— improved? yes, i think this is calling for it _ improved? yes, i think this is calling for it to _ improved? yes, i think this is calling for it to be _ improved? yes, i think this is calling for it to be improved. | improved? yes, i think this is| calling for it to be improved. i think what that is getting at, at least my understanding, is that many of the responses to the pandemic, they were devolved, and when it is wales or scotland, they have a different set of mp1. it was important to respect their may be differences in approaches, but that there was coordination in communicating, otherwise it may be confusing to the public. and communicating, otherwise it may be confusing to the public.— confusing to the public. and you reco . nise confusing to the public. and you recognise the — confusing to the public. and you recognise the concern _ confusing to the public. and you recognise the concern about - confusing to the public. and you recognise the concern about the i recognise the concern about the geographical reach decisions not always— geographical reach decisions not always being made clear by uk government? yes. in moving forward to the _ government? yes. in moving forward to the end _ government? yes. in moving forward to the end of— government? yes. in moving forward to the end of 2021, and early 2022, and discussions on international travel — and discussions on international travel i— and discussions on international travel. i am and discussions on international travel. lam not and discussions on international travel. i am not interested so much in your— travel. i am not interested so much in your views, — travel. i am not interested so much in your views, it is the process for engaging — in your views, it is the process for engaging on— in your views, it is the process for engaging on this important issue. there _ engaging on this important issue. there came a point when we see differences emerging between the nations— differences emerging between the nations in relation to international travel _ nations in relation to international travel first— nations in relation to international travel. first minister for wales was advocating — travel. first minister for wales was advocating at this time a more precautionary approach to the uk government opening our borders. we have a _ government opening our borders. we have a series — government opening our borders. we have a series of letters, he writes to the _ have a series of letters, he writes to the prime minister and has responded to by grand shops in early 2022~ _ responded to by grand shops in early 2022. you're not responding. here we have sensitive discussions and indeed — have sensitive discussions and indeed disagreements between the uk government, and the welsh government, and the welsh government, about the important matter— government, about the important matter of— government, about the important matter of international travel and control _ matter of international travel and control borders and it is taking place — control borders and it is taking place in — control borders and it is taking place in writing. it may be suggested it is surprising to see so much _ suggested it is surprising to see so much important matters discussed in writing, _ much important matters discussed in writing, and — much important matters discussed in writing, and we know the gmc system wasn't _ writing, and we know the gmc system wasn't operating, there was a result time before — wasn't operating, there was a result time before you came in that cobra hadn't _ time before you came in that cobra hadn't met~ — time before you came in that cobra hadn't met. we know concerns were being _ hadn't met. we know concerns were being expressed by first minister is about— being expressed by first minister is about a _ being expressed by first minister is about a lack of a formal structure for them — about a lack of a formal structure for them to— about a lack of a formal structure for them to communicate regularly with the _ for them to communicate regularly with the prime minister. are you able to— with the prime minister. are you able to offer any perspective on whether. — able to offer any perspective on whether, from your time in office, whether— whether, from your time in office, whether you consider if there was in fact suitable machinery or a workable system in place for conducting regular, high—level intergovernmental meetings between the first— intergovernmental meetings between the first ministers of the devolved administration is and the prime minister? — administration is and the prime minister? | administration is and the prime minister? .., administration is and the prime minister? ., ~ ., ., , minister? i can talk about what my department _ minister? i can talk about what my department did — minister? i can talk about what my department did at _ minister? i can talk about what my department did at my _ minister? i can talk about what my department did at my level - minister? i can talk about what my department did at my level with i minister? i can talk about what my| department did at my level with my counterpart in the devolved administration. i had regularformal meetings, regular contact in a sense they were free to contact me anytime. ifelt they were free to contact me anytime. i felt there they were free to contact me anytime. ifelt there is relationships at my level were very constructive, they worked well. i learnt from my counterparts. your question was more at the higher level. at the prime minister level, if you're asking me that... i wouldn't fully know. i don't think i wouldn't fully know. i don't think i would be able to fully answer that question because what was going on at that level, i really wasn't involved in, and because i was dealing with things at my level, if there was an issue at the leader of government level, i wouldn't necessarily have been involved. what i will say, when i had my weekly meetings, the issue you just referred to, the issue around border controls in january 2022, referred to, the issue around border controls injanuary 2022, certainly that would have been brought up in the meetings i had, and at that time they would have been brought up by they would have been brought up by the health minister in scotland, sorry, in wales. i the health minister in scotland, sorry, in wales.— the health minister in scotland, sorry, in wales. i am not asking about that... _ sorry, in wales. i am not asking about that... is _ sorry, in wales. i am not asking about that... is it _ sorry, in wales. i am not asking about that... is it your - sorry, in wales. i am not asking about that... is it your evidence j about that... is it your evidence that— about that... is it your evidence that these — about that... is it your evidence that these concerns the inquiry has heard _ that these concerns the inquiry has heard about, the lack of regular forum _ heard about, the lack of regular forum for— heard about, the lack of regular forum for communicating with the devolved — forum for communicating with the devolved administrations, was not something you were aware of being communicated during the time you impose? _ communicated during the time you impose? |— communicated during the time you im ose? . ., ~' communicated during the time you imose? _, ,, ., communicated during the time you imose? .., ~' ., , impose? i could think of letters i was cepied _ impose? i could think of letters i was copied on. _ impose? i could think of letters i was copied on. for— impose? i could think of letters i was copied on. for example, - impose? i could think of letters i l was copied on. for example, when impose? i could think of letters i - was copied on. for example, when you asked me about the covid meeting in december whatever the date, the meeting with the first minister is that michael gove had shared, i believe it came about because of a letter sent to the prime minister by the first minister of scotland, and the first minister of scotland, and the prime minister asked me to respond to the letter, which i did. and then this covid meeting was held. i can sense from the fact the letter went to the prime minister, i responded, michael gove shared the meeting. there was probably some tension. i could send some tension, but it was not something i readily came into contact with.— but it was not something i readily came into contact with. thank you very much- _ came into contact with. thank you very much. that _ came into contact with. thank you very much. that concludes - very much. that concludes questioning. _ very much. that concludes questioning. thank - very much. that concludes questioning. thank you, . very much. that concludes questioning. thank you, ll very much. that concludes - questioning. thank you, i can't give you a _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we won't _ questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we won't ask- questioning. thank you, i can't give you a guarantee we won't ask you l questioning. thank you, i can't givel you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us— you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again. — you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again. i— you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again-— you a guarantee we won't ask you to help us again. i would be very happy to come back- _ that brings the end of sajid javid, former health secretary, his evidence to the covid inquiry. he's been giving evidence for a few hours, it started at ten o'clock. it wasn't him, it was damejenny harries. he was talking about many things, not least saying his conclusion was that he didn't believe we have enough hospital beds in the uk. while sajid