expect _ areas. you see it would be wrong to expect that — areas. you see it would be wrong to expect that any future scientific adviser — expect that any future scientific adviser would have specialist knowledge on political or epidemiological matters. given your no doubt _ epidemiological matters. given your no doubt fortuitous experience in medicine — no doubt fortuitous experience in medicine and pharmacological matters did you _ medicine and pharmacological matters did you on _ medicine and pharmacological matters did you on reflection think that you played _ did you on reflection think that you played a _ did you on reflection think that you played a greater role in responding to this _ played a greater role in responding to this pandemic and perhaps you might— to this pandemic and perhaps you might have done if you speciality had been — might have done if you speciality had been different? i might have done if you speciality had been different?— might have done if you speciality had been different? i think the role would still be _ had been different? i think the role would still be to _ had been different? i think the role would still be to cheer _ had been different? i think the role would still be to cheer sage, - had been different? i think the role would still be to cheer sage, and i would still be to cheer sage, and during health emergency that is done together with the chief medical officer, that would have continued, inevitably there were some aspects of what i did when i was called in, because of my particular knowledge, particularly around vaccines where i had a role which i don't think in any way would be something that the gcse would normally do, and definitely i had more knowledge of some of the areas being discussed than at gc ac would have in day—to—day activities in this particular emergency. looking forward, given first of all the profound effect that the pandemic had on this country, and also the _ pandemic had on this country, and also the certainty that there will be another pandemic in due course, do you _ be another pandemic in due course, do you think— be another pandemic in due course, do you think it is right that the chief— do you think it is right that the chief scientific adviser should continue _ chief scientific adviser should continue to be selected as someone who n1ay_ continue to be selected as someone who ntay or— continue to be selected as someone who may or may not have a medical background — who may or may not have a medical background or do you think that the person— background or do you think that the person fulfilling that function ought — person fulfilling that function ought to have some relevant expertise that would be useful when the next _ expertise that would be useful when the next pandemic arrives? | expertise that would be useful when the next pandemic arrives?— the next pandemic arrives? i don't think gcsa — the next pandemic arrives? i don't think gcsa role _ the next pandemic arrives? i don't think gcsa role is _ the next pandemic arrives? i don't think gcsa role is primarily - the next pandemic arrives? i don't think gcsa role is primarily for - think gcsa role is primarily for pandemic preparedness. the great crisis that all governments face for the next many decades is the climate. you could equally well argue that she would have somebody who has that expertise. i think the gcsa should be appointed on scientific knowledge and breadth and ability to work across areas and there should be no expectation that gcsa is necessarily expert in this area. finally on this introductory section. _ finally on this introductory section, we haven't mentioned so far professor— section, we haven't mentioned so far professor whitty. we think back to that time _ professor whitty. we think back to that time to a greater or lesser extent— that time to a greater or lesser extent you performed those functions jointly— extent you performed those functions jointly with him. it _ jointly with him. it is _ jointly with him. it is a _ jointly with him. it is a difference, the chief medical officer role is solely focused on matters of health and has a particular remit for public health and is embedded in the department of health and social care. it is a departmental role, a very senior role, a rather older role in the gcsa role in terms of the government, and that has an overall accountability for that. and to some extent is closer to policy questions as well, as the medical advice is given. this is a theme i wanted to explore briefty. _ this is a theme i wanted to explore briefly. and — this is a theme i wanted to explore briefly, and if we can look at paragraph 98, page 34, about half the way— paragraph 98, page 34, about half the way down, you refer to the dha see as _ the way down, you refer to the dha see as being the leeds government department for pandemic planning and operations. _ department for pandemic planning and operations, you see it would be appropriate for you to become involved — appropriate for you to become involved in operational delivery ptans, — involved in operational delivery plans, and then you make the point that the _ plans, and then you make the point that the cmo and one of his deputies in infectious diseases experts, epidemiologists, and then you refer to the _ epidemiologists, and then you refer to the chairperson of near tag, and so on. _ to the chairperson of near tag, and so on. but — to the chairperson of near tag, and so on, but generally, whether particular— so on, but generally, whether particular areas where professor whitty _ particular areas where professor whitty took the lead to, as it were, between _ whitty took the lead to, as it were, between the two of you in responding to the _ between the two of you in responding to the pandemic? can— to the pandemic? can i— to the pandemic? can i first make the point that operational delivery is outside the scope of gcsa, it is a science advice role, not a policy or operational role. cmo and many of the other experts from dhs c took the other experts from dhs c took the lead in things in the department and worked in the driving seat in the initial phase injanuary when this was a departmentally led response. at all times this cmo would take the lead in clinical matters, matters relating to medicine, nhs, otherthings which were outside my remit. he was deeply expert in this, when you see this, you mean epidemiology and epidemiology and spread of infections? yes. there is a press conference the families of two hostages currently being held in gaza. we have today with us, joining us,... he is 28 yea rs years old, and we have the father of one of the horse —— we have the father of a nine—year—old girl who was kidnapped from a kibbutz. and the mother of a hostage kidnapped from the festival. and also someone who lost five members of herfamily in and also someone who lost five members of her family in the and also someone who lost five members of herfamily in the hamas terror attack. she is seeking to raise awareness of the dyas borough which stands in solidarity with israel. it is very important to us to be here _ it is very important to us to be here today. we left our families who needed _ here today. we left our families who needed as— here today. we left our families who needed as in israel and we came here to share _ needed as in israel and we came here to share with — needed as in israel and we came here to share with you what happened on our hotiday. — to share with you what happened on our holiday, october seven. on this day we _ our holiday, october seven. on this day we lost — our holiday, october seven. on this day we lost four members of our family— day we lost four members of our family in— day we lost four members of our family in one day. in the morning one of— family in one day. in the morning one of them was one of the first probably— one of them was one of the first probably to get the notice that terrorists were coming in. they ran to the _ terrorists were coming in. they ran to the safe — terrorists were coming in. they ran to the safe room of the kibbutz to take the _ to the safe room of the kibbutz to take the weapon, managed to take the weapon, _ take the weapon, managed to take the weapon, on— take the weapon, managed to take the weapon, on its way to meet the terrorists. — weapon, on its way to meet the terrorists, they met him, next to his house, — terrorists, they met him, next to his house, below an olive tree, and there _ his house, below an olive tree, and there were — his house, below an olive tree, and there were terrorists, a few tens of terrorists. — there were terrorists, a few tens of terrorists, and they shot and killed him immediately. then they continued, a few houses up in the hill, and _ continued, a few houses up in the hill, and they killed his mother in law _ hill, and they killed his mother in law she — hill, and they killed his mother in law. shejust hill, and they killed his mother in law. she just went out to pick her phone _ law. she just went out to pick her phone from — law. she just went out to pick her phone from her scooter and she was kitted _ phone from her scooter and she was kitted 81 _ phone from her scooter and she was killed. 81 years old. my _ killed. 81 years old. my brother was the mayor of the municipality, a well known piece seeker. — municipality, a well known piece seeker, invested all of his life —— peace _ seeker, invested all of his life —— peace seeker, they visited him on a weekly— peace seeker, they visited him on a weekly basis in his house, and he wasjust_ weekly basis in his house, and he wasjust about to weekly basis in his house, and he was just about to build an industrial centre for 10,000 palestinians in his municipality. he was supposed to start the building five days _ was supposed to start the building five days later. they didn't finish, because _ five days later. they didn't finish, because from that point they went to the youth _ because from that point they went to the youth area, where young people live together, each and every one, 19-22 _ live together, each and every one, 19-22 years— live together, each and every one, 19—22 years old are getting a small house, _ 19—22 years old are getting a small house, with a living room and bedroom _ house, with a living room and bedroom. the bedroom is also the safe room. — bedroom. the bedroom is also the safe room, and they started to bombard — safe room, and they started to bombard this area. i have pictures for you _ bombard this area. i have pictures for you and — bombard this area. i have pictures for you and i— bombard this area. i have pictures for you and i took a few days later. they— for you and i took a few days later. they ruined — for you and i took a few days later. they ruined the whole neighbourhood, usin- they ruined the whole neighbourhood, using missiles, grenades, and shot everyone — using missiles, grenades, and shot everyone. they went into the i’ooiti room of peace and his fiancee, —— of neta, _ room of peace and his fiancee, —— of neta, the _ room of peace and his fiancee, —— of neta, the through a few grenades, open _ neta, the through a few grenades, open the _ neta, the through a few grenades, open the safe room and through a few more _ open the safe room and through a few more grenades inside the room. he managed _ more grenades inside the room. he managed to— more grenades inside the room. he managed to save his fiancee, who was then hiding _ managed to save his fiancee, who was then hiding below the bed for four and a _ then hiding below the bed for four and a hatt— then hiding below the bed for four and a half hours. they— and a half hours. they continue to shoot everyone in this area — they continue to shoot everyone in this area. then they came to the house _ this area. then they came to the house of— this area. then they came to the house of the second son of the mayor who died. _ house of the second son of the mayor who died, and they started to shoot everything — who died, and they started to shoot everything over there, and he was told to— everything over there, and he was told to hold the door of the safe room _ told to hold the door of the safe room so — told to hold the door of the safe room so they would not throw grenades _ room so they would not throw grenades into the room. he did it. and he _ grenades into the room. he did it. and he managed to survive a a few hours. _ and he managed to survive a a few hours. but — and he managed to survive a a few hours, but at 1130 they shot the door _ hours, but at 1130 they shot the door so — hours, but at 1130 they shot the door so many times, the bullets went in, door so many times, the bullets went in. because _ door so many times, the bullets went in, because it is not bullet—proof, and wounded him, and he was guided by his— and wounded him, and he was guided by his cousin — and wounded him, and he was guided by his cousin on how to rescue his life and _ by his cousin on how to rescue his life and stop — by his cousin on how to rescue his life and stop the bleeding. but from 230 we _ life and stop the bleeding. but from 230 we haven't heard back from him. and at— 230 we haven't heard back from him. and at four, — 230 we haven't heard back from him. and at four, only at four, the army arrived, _ and at four, only at four, the army arrived, to— and at four, only at four, the army arrived, to tell as that there were four terrorists in the living room, there _ four terrorists in the living room, there was— four terrorists in the living room, there was nobody in the bedroom, so we had _ there was nobody in the bedroom, so we had a _ there was nobody in the bedroom, so we had a feeling that he might be alive _ we had a feeling that he might be alive. from that point, for the next 12 days, _ alive. from that point, for the next 12 days, we — alive. from that point, for the next 12 days, we were searching for mitzan, — 12 days, we were searching for mitzan, in— 12 days, we were searching for mitzan, in the last few days hoping maybe _ mitzan, in the last few days hoping maybe they took him, maybe he was kidnapped. _ maybe they took him, maybe he was kidnapped, the municipality people called _ kidnapped, the municipality people called and said, he is not moving from _ called and said, he is not moving from the — called and said, he is not moving from the same position in the house, and they— from the same position in the house, and they ask— from the same position in the house, and they ask her to go and look what is happening, and her son went out, and found— is happening, and her son went out, and found his father dead below the olive tree _ and found his father dead below the olive tree. this man was fully invested _ olive tree. this man was fully invested in relationships with other people _ invested in relationships with other people from all around the world, he was travelling and building communities of friends, and in his funeral. _ communities of friends, and in his funeral, each and every person that arrived _ funeral, each and every person that arrived was — funeral, each and every person that arrived was talking about how loving arrived was talking about how loving a person— arrived was talking about how loving a person he — arrived was talking about how loving a person he was. a friend to the president — a person he was. a friend to the president of israel, a friend to all the big _ president of israel, a friend to all the big guys around the world, and a friend _ the big guys around the world, and a friend to _ the big guys around the world, and a friend to the — the big guys around the world, and a friend to the palestinians. i will close _ friend to the palestinians. i will close my— friend to the palestinians. i will close my notes by seeing the following. our lives kind of stopped in october— following. our lives kind of stopped in october the 7th. we are all at threes _ in october the 7th. we are all at threes -- — in october the 7th. we are all at threes -- att— in october the 7th. we are all at threes —— all at freeze, one goal, to bring _ threes —— all at freeze, one goal, to bring them back now, this is what unites— to bring them back now, this is what unites everyone in israel. we had the year— unites everyone in israel. we had the year of— unites everyone in israel. we had the year of self fighting in israel which _ the year of self fighting in israel which i — the year of self fighting in israel which i believe showed other people the weakness of not being united, but right— the weakness of not being united, but right now we are united, with one top— but right now we are united, with one top goal, to bring them back home _ one top goal, to bring them back home the — one top goal, to bring them back home. the second goal is of course to three _ home. the second goal is of course to three gaza from hamas, because they are _ to three gaza from hamas, because they are hostages by hamas. i believe — they are hostages by hamas. i believe that what we are doing over there. _ believe that what we are doing over there. i_ believe that what we are doing over there. i am — believe that what we are doing over there, i am a person of peace. i believe — there, i am a person of peace. i believe what we are doing over there hetps _ believe what we are doing over there helps the _ believe what we are doing over there helps the world in fighting an idea virus _ helps the world in fighting an idea virus called hamas, isis, and i think— virus called hamas, isis, and i think you _ virus called hamas, isis, and i think you see it over here in the parades, — think you see it over here in the parades, and it exists everywhere... we are _ parades, and it exists everywhere... we are leaving this press conference from the uk which gives traumatic and difficult accounts of the impact of the assault of hamas on october seven this year in southern israel. representatives there of two british hostages are still being held by hamas. let us return now to the covid inquiry, and patrick vallance who is giving evidence. to try and see if we could resolve this logjam. an e—mail exchange that you had with ben warner. you are coming back to what sir patrick— you are coming back to what sir patrick meant about operational response — patrick meant about operational response being not very effective. this is— response being not very effective. this is an — response being not very effective. this is an e—mail exchange, sir patrick, 27th of february, a month or thereabouts after the e—mail, and well into the time that it was, and ben warner says he is concerned that the nhs didn't seem to have started modelling, and your response, you had been pushing for this in the last ten days or so, you think they have no grasp that, there is a meeting planned for monday, they haven't defined the input variables well enough. taking a step to one side, you have already mentioned issues such as nhs capacity. was it really a complicated modelling exercise that was needed, or was there simply a basic mathematical exercise of, how many beds of the gut, at what point on our understanding of the pandemic will they be overwhelmed? is that complicated? in they be overwhelmed? is that complicated?— they be overwhelmed? is that complicated? they be overwhelmed? is that comlicated? ., . , , ., complicated? in one cents, it is not complicated. _ complicated? in one cents, it is not complicated, exercise _ complicated? in one cents, it is not complicated, exercise nimbus- complicated? in one cents, it is not complicated, exercise nimbus in . complicated? in one cents, it is not| complicated, exercise nimbus in the middle _ complicated, exercise nimbus in the middle of— complicated, exercise nimbus in the middle of february, the question of nhs capacity being overrun was considered. it was clear that the projections, worst case scenario, overrun— projections, worst case scenario, overrun the — projections, worst case scenario, overrun the nhs, was discussed three february _ overrun the nhs, was discussed three february. what is being asked for here is— february. what is being asked for here is the — february. what is being asked for here is the point that that model is needed _ here is the point that that model is needed better information to try and understand when that was going to occur _ understand when that was going to occur and — understand when that was going to occur. and what the warning signs were _ occur. and what the warning signs were. because, at alltimes occur. and what the warning signs were. because, at all times during february. — were. because, at all times during february, from a scientific point of view, _ february, from a scientific point of view, this— february, from a scientific point of view, this goes right back to a comment— view, this goes right back to a comment that sir chris made in february. — comment that sir chris made in february, we wanted to understand the mechanisms to get r below one, to make _ the mechanisms to get r below one, to make the — the mechanisms to get r below one, to make the pandemic string, the question— to make the pandemic string, the question was when do you trigger it, how deeply— question was when do you trigger it, how deeply do you trigger it, in terms _ how deeply do you trigger it, in terms of— how deeply do you trigger it, in terms of what you need to have? the most _ terms of what you need to have? the most tisted _ terms of what you need to have? the most listed precise details to understand what that looked like. this was— understand what that looked like. this was not an academic exercise, it was— this was not an academic exercise, it was important for them to understand, and we felt it should be relatively— understand, and we felt it should be relatively straightforward to get these _ relatively straightforward to get these numbers. it turned out, like a lot these numbers. it turned out, like a tot of— these numbers. it turned out, like a tot of data _ these numbers. it turned out, like a lot of data flow early in the pandemic, not easy to get these numbers — numbers. you - numbers. you said there was a numbers. — you said there was a meeting in early march. when we look at some of the data that was provided, the modelling for the nhs, this is the 9th of march, if we could zoom in on those bottom two paragraphs, the essence of it seems to be that there is a peak, the unmitigated beak, and what someone has simply done is drawn a line relating to total nhs beds on the left, critical care surge beds on the right, and said, thatis surge beds on the right, and said, that is the point of overwhelm. and just for completeness, look at the next page, perhaps, please. different graph they are, that is the mitigated peak, the same lines are drawn. it doesn't look at first blush as though that is an exercise that needed to take weeks and weeks and we don't what the variables are, we don't know what the inputs are, it took six and has just said, this is how many beds we have got, we will draw that line on the graph. that is not what the models were asking for, this was understood in nimbus in mid—february. but asking for, this was understood in nimbus in mid-february.- asking for, this was understood in nimbus in mid-february. but in a big eak the nimbus in mid-february. but in a big peak the nhs — nimbus in mid-february. but in a big peak the nhs would _ nimbus in mid-february. but in a big peak the nhs would become - peak the nhs would become overwhelmed. but it doesn't tell you is at what _ overwhelmed. but it doesn't tell you is at what stage you think you need to act— is at what stage you think you need to act in— is at what stage you think you need to act in order to do something. that— to act in order to do something. that is— to act in order to do something. that is what the mothers were trying to understand, and why they needed more _ to understand, and why they needed more precision. on a basic level anyone — more precision. on a basic level anyone could see that if you had a huge _ anyone could see that if you had a huge wave — anyone could see that if you had a huge wave of infections it would cause _ huge wave of infections it would cause us— huge wave of infections it would cause us problems. the _ cause us problems. the reason i am asking is that, as we know, when the weekend of 14th, 15th of march came around, one of the reasons why it was felt necessary to take dramatic steps or change direction, was a new understanding that the nhs was going to be overwhelmed. i suppose my question is, is that part of the analysis, something that could have been understood earlier, if only more urgent steps had been taken in february to do this sort of analysis? i don't think there's any doubt, peopte — i don't think there's any doubt, people understood in february that the nhs _ people understood in february that the nhs could be overwhelmed, i think— the nhs could be overwhelmed, i think the — the nhs could be overwhelmed, i think the new understanding on the weekend _ think the new understanding on the weekend of the 14th and 15th of march — weekend of the 14th and 15th of march was that we were much further ahead _ march was that we were much further ahead in— march was that we were much further ahead in the — march was that we were much further ahead in the pandemic and be realised _ ahead in the pandemic and be realised. and the numbers that came in that— realised. and the numbers that came in that week— realised. and the numbers that came in that week showed that there were many— in that week showed that there were many more — in that week showed that there were many more cases. it was far more widespread — many more cases. it was far more widespread and was accelerating faster— widespread and was accelerating faster than anyone had expected. that is— faster than anyone had expected. that is what triggered an urgent recognition that this was an imminent problem of the nhs collapsing, not something that was weeks _ collapsing, not something that was weeks away with the possibility of introducing measures at a more teisurety— introducing measures at a more leisurely rates. that weekend was an intense _ leisurely rates. that weekend was an intense acceleration and indeed intensification of the measures that were required to stop this. let me _ were required to stop this. let me turn and asking some questions that weekend. by way of introduction, it is well understood that different people who were there seemed to understand the events of perhaps a slightly different way. some people regard it as being a time when measures work fast forwarded, exhilarated, other people regard it as a change of direction. but do you agree, on any view, it was a time when decisions were either made or started to be made, that a suppression policy, a policy of trying to keep the pandemic with r number below one needed to be introduced, with his previously that point hadn't been reached, is that fair? , ., ., ., , , ., , fair? the plan from early february was to keep _ fair? the plan from early february was to keep r _ fair? the plan from early february was to keep r below— fair? the plan from early february was to keep r below one - fair? the plan from early february was to keep r below one to - fair? the plan from early february was to keep r below one to stop l was to keep r below one to stop growing. — was to keep r below one to stop growing, but recognition that this had to— growing, but recognition that this had to be — growing, but recognition that this had to be implemented to achieve that _ that. had the plan that. — had the plan been from the that. had the plan been from the very start to stop the pandemic growing. flattening the curve is not the same as suppressing the virus. ultimately the question, how far do you want to suppress it,. you the question, how far do you want to suppress it”— suppress it,. you could suppress down to zero. — suppress it,. you could suppress down to zero, that _ suppress it,. you could suppress down to zero, that was - suppress it,. you could suppress down to zero, that was never - suppress it,. you could suppress| down to zero, that was never the aim, _ down to zero, that was never the aim, you — down to zero, that was never the aim. you could— down to zero, that was never the aim, you could suppress - down to zero, that was never the aim, you could suppress a - down to zero, that was never the aim, you could suppress a little i aim, you could suppress a little bit. , ., ., , ., aim, you could suppress a little bit. , ., ., ., bit. the question was how far you needed to suppress _ bit. the question was how far you needed to suppress it _ bit. the question was how far you needed to suppress it and - bit. the question was how far you needed to suppress it and at - bit. the question was how far you | needed to suppress it and at what stage _ needed to suppress it and at what stage needed to do that. i think the focus _ stage needed to do that. i think the focus on _ stage needed to do that. i think the focus on trying to get that timing i’ilht focus on trying to get that timing right was— focus on trying to get that timing right was incorrect. it was an error to think— right was incorrect. it was an error to think that— right was incorrect. it was an error to think that you could be that precise — to think that you could be that precise. that is an important lesson that came _ precise. that is an important lesson that came out of this. i am afraid you need — that came out of this. i am afraid you need to _ that came out of this. i am afraid you need to go early. we that came out of this. i am afraid you need to go early.— that came out of this. i am afraid you need to go early. we will come to that idea, _ you need to go early. we will come to that idea, which _ you need to go early. we will come to that idea, which she _ you need to go early. we will come to that idea, which she repeats - you need to go early. we will come to that idea, which she repeats a l to that idea, which she repeats a your witness statements. i want to ask you about a passage from ben warner's witness statement. paragraph 303, page 78. it is the final sentence, the final two sentences. he says, changing from a mitigation strategy to suppression midway would have been the worst of all worlds. from early 2020 we should have developed alternative plans, for example, lockdown is, after seeing the actions in china, or at least italy. his reflection, and one which is shared by some others in number ten that we have heard from, is that the events of that weekend, in hindsight, suggest that weekend, in hindsight, suggest that they had previously been on the wrong plan, and that they should have been thinking about a different plan, suppression plan, earlier. is that you review? is that a valid criticism of the science, or not? i criticism of the science, or not? i am not sure that he is criticising the science _ am not sure that he is criticising the science. i think he is talking about— the science. i think he is talking about the — the science. i think he is talking about the operational plan to deliver — about the operational plan to deliver. the notion that you had to intervene. — deliver. the notion that you had to intervene, and there are multiple e-maits _ intervene, and there are multiple e—mails and charts and things presented at corporate meetings as well, talking about the combination of w _ well, talking about the combination of w is— well, talking about the combination of npi is required to reduce the spread — of npi is required to reduce the spread and get r below one, the question— spread and get r below one, the question is when and how much to do it. question is when and how much to do it this— question is when and how much to do it this war— question is when and how much to do it this war is — question is when and how much to do it. this war is not mirrored by an operational— it. this war is not mirrored by an operational readiness. the bit that ithink— operational readiness. the bit that i think is— operational readiness. the bit that i think is missing is whether the operational development of plans to do that— operational development of plans to do that actual notice were as advanced _ do that actual notice were as advanced as they should have been, and they— advanced as they should have been, and they were not. are _ and they were not. are you talking about things like test and trace?— are you talking about things like test and trace? test and chase for sure. and isolate. _ test and trace? test and chase for sure. and isolate. we _ test and trace? test and chase for sure. and isolate. we had - test and trace? test and chase for . sure. and isolate. we had inadequate scale or— sure. and isolate. we had inadequate scale or facility to do that through pubiic— scale or facility to do that through public health england. also, the plans— public health england. also, the plans for— public health england. also, the plans for introducing npis, given they are — plans for introducing npis, given they are described early on, the should — they are described early on, the should have been an operational plan to have _ should have been an operational plan to have those ready to pull the trigger— to have those ready to pull the trigger on _ to have those ready to pull the trigger on as soon as they were needed — trigger on as soon as they were needed to _ trigger on as soon as they were needed to. and what we see is it takes _ needed to. and what we see is it takes quite a long time to get those actually— takes quite a long time to get those actually working, and to get the process — actually working, and to get the process in— actually working, and to get the process in place to do that. i think that is— process in place to do that. i think that is learning the lesson that you should _ that is learning the lesson that you should start earlier. i take the comment— should start earlier. i take the comment that the previous head of mi5 comment that the previous head of mb has _ comment that the previous head of mi5 has said, very clearly, that he heard _ mi5 has said, very clearly, that he heard the — mi5 has said, very clearly, that he heard the warnings that we were giving _ heard the warnings that we were giving in — heard the warnings that we were giving in early february, and took actions _ giving in early february, and took actions in — giving in early february, and took actions in that organisation to do things _ actions in that organisation to do things i'm — actions in that organisation to do things. i'm not sure that that urgency— things. i'm not sure that that urgency of action was as consistent and as— urgency of action was as consistent and as reliable as it should have been _ and as reliable as it should have been across whitehall at that time. you have focused your remarks very clearly on the operational, the implementation aspect of this. it may be that mr warner was also directing some criticism towards stage and saying that sage should have thought more about lockdowns and more stringent actions earlier. is that a fair criticism to make? brute is that a fair criticism to make? we thou . ht a is that a fair criticism to make? we thought a lot about npis, you had to use them _ thought a lot about npis, you had to use them together, probably. this was going — use them together, probably. this was going to be behaviourally difficutt~ _ was going to be behaviourally difficult. all of that was done through— difficult. all of that was done through february. where we were wrong, _ through february. where we were wrong, and — through february. where we were wrong, and i think it is very clear, is the _ wrong, and i think it is very clear, is the belief— wrong, and i think it is very clear, is the belief that we understood when _ is the belief that we understood when to— is the belief that we understood when to do that. it wasn't that we hadn't _ when to do that. it wasn't that we hadn't said — when to do that. it wasn't that we hadn't said do it and this is going to be _ hadn't said do it and this is going to be needed, but we thought we could _ to be needed, but we thought we could understand when to do it. third _ could understand when to do it. third day— could understand when to do it. third day to day came in during the week— third day to day came in during the week that — third day to day came in during the week that led up to the 14th and 15th should clearly that we were much _ 15th should clearly that we were much further ahead, it was much more likely— much further ahead, it was much more likely to _ much further ahead, it was much more likely to be _ much further ahead, it was much more likely to be needed urgently