Transcripts For BBCNEWS Sunday 20240702

of conflict abroad, so our main question this morning — are politicians making divisions worse at home? as dignitaries gather at the cenotaph, the defence secretary grant shapps joins us. but as a new war rages in the middle east, we'll hear from israel's president, isaac herzog. with the home secretary's job in the balance, the woman who wants herjob for labour, yvette cooper, joins us too. and what are you watching on tv, what are you seeing on your phone? we'll hear for the first time from lord grade, the boss of ofcom, who sets the rules. and we'll pay a special visit to the cenotaph on this poignant day before the clocks ring out at 11. i'm at the cenotaph on remembrance sunday, almost 10,000 people are getting ready to take part in the march passed later here this morning and i'll be talking to some of them. morning, morning, on this special day. with me at the desk, former cabinet minister nadine dorries, whose book about the ousting of borisjohnson was published this week. baroness shami chakrabarti from labour, big legal brain and human rights activist. and lord kim darroch, former british ambassador to washington. before we do anything else, i want to show you live pictures of what is happening on whitehall, ahead of the bbc�*s coverage of the solemn moment of national remembrance. sophie raworth and david dimbleby will be following after our extended programme until 10.15. but it's taking place in a fraught political environment. let's look at the front pages. most of them splash on yesterday's marches. the sunday times has "hate intolerance and arrests as thugs hijack armistice day". the sunday telegraph say "sunak: far right thugs and hamas sympathisers disrespect our heroes". the mail on sunday has "gove jostled and abused by pro—palestinian mob". and the sunday mirror says "sack her now", with a picture of the home secretary. the home secretary raised eyebrows this week having suggested the police had gone soft on some kinds of protest. nadine dorries, you were in government for a long time, we all saw what happened yesterday, we've all seen what happened this week with this very tense debate about the police. how difficult do you think it's been for the government to handle it? what did you think when you saw the protests? it wouldn't have been difficult if there had been some kind of cohesive leadership showing within government. i think the fact that we had the whole story about suella �*s article not being given approval, i find that almost impossible to believe having served as a secretary of state myself but then you had a prime minister trying to add a number of horses at any one time and to please everybody and you can't do that when you are a prime minister and a leader, you have to show distinctive leadership, and i'm afraid rishi sunakfailed in that and i think a lot of the problems don't lie at suella braverman�*s door, they lie at the prime minister's door because they are the person in charge. fix, minister's door because they are the person in charge-— person in charge. a lot of your colleagues _ person in charge. a lot of your colleagues have _ person in charge. a lot of your colleagues have pointed - person in charge. a lot of your colleagues have pointed the i person in charge. a lot of your - colleagues have pointed the finger at suella braverman, is that fair? it is but like nadine, i think the prime _ it is but like nadine, i think the prime minister has to take some responsibility because even his language are saying just in advance of this_ language are saying just in advance of this weekend, i will hold the commission accountable. the met police boss- _ commission accountable. the met police boss. that's _ commission accountable. the met police boss. that's almost - commission accountable. the met police boss. that's almost an - police boss. that's almost an invitation _ police boss. that's almost an invitation to _ police boss. that's almost an invitation to people _ police boss. that's almost an invitation to people to - police boss. that's almost an invitation to people to come l police boss. that's almost an i invitation to people to come and misbehave, knowing that they might see off— misbehave, knowing that they might see off the met commissioner if they do that _ see off the met commissioner if they do that i_ see off the met commissioner if they do that. i think it was an interference with operational independence. the home secretary as the pantomime villain and she is bad, _ the pantomime villain and she is bad, but — the pantomime villain and she is bad, but i — the pantomime villain and she is bad, but i don't think the prime minisler— bad, but i don't think the prime minister hide behind her much longer, — minister hide behind her much longer, actually. find minister hide behind her much longer, actually.— minister hide behind her much longer, actually. and some think mark rowley _ longer, actually. and some think mark rowley did _ longer, actually. and some think mark rowley did a _ longer, actually. and some think mark rowley did a good - longer, actually. and some think mark rowley did a good job - mark rowley did a good job yesterday, there was no major damage to property, nobody was harmed in any significant way and i think it was ok, he managed, but michael gove in that, i've got to raise it, what was michael gove doing in the middle of victoria station on a day when every other sensible politician, wanting to make the police job harder, was he drunk? what was he doing there in the middle of victoria? to coin a phrase, but why was he there? whatjudgment made him walk through victoria station? kim. walk through victoria station? kim, is a former— walk through victoria station? kim, is a former diplomat, _ walk through victoria station? kim, is a former diplomat, you _ walk through victoria station? kim, is a former diplomat, you are not somebody who is going to play politics with all of this, perhaps you feel like doing so this morning, but looking from the outside there's been a furious political debate in this country about protest and the right to protest. how do you think it's been handled?— it's been handled? when i was national security _ it's been handled? when i was national security advisor - it's been handled? when i was national security advisor in - national security advisor in washington _ national security advisor in washington i _ national security advisor in washington i used - national security advisor in washington i used to- national security advisor in washington i used to talk. national security advisor in i washington i used to talk to national security advisor in - washington i used to talk to the head _ washington i used to talk to the head of— washington i used to talk to the head of the _ washington i used to talk to the head of the met _ washington i used to talk to the head of the met police - washington i used to talk to the head of the met police quite - washington i used to talk to the . head of the met police quite often and if— head of the met police quite often and if i _ head of the met police quite often and if i had — head of the met police quite often and if i had been— head of the met police quite often and if i had been talking _ head of the met police quite often and if i had been talking to - head of the met police quite often and if i had been talking to him i and if i had been talking to him last week— and if i had been talking to him last week i _ and if i had been talking to him last week i would _ and if i had been talking to him last week i would have - and if i had been talking to him last week i would have said - and if i had been talking to him last week i would have said if. and if i had been talking to him last week i would have said if i | last week i would have said if i were _ last week i would have said if i were in— last week i would have said if i were in your— last week i would have said if i were in your shoes _ last week i would have said if i were in your shoes i— last week i would have said if i were in your shoes i would - last week i would have said if i were in your shoes i would ask last week i would have said if i. were in your shoes i would ask for last week i would have said if i - were in your shoes i would ask for a postponement— were in your shoes i would ask for a postponementiust _ were in your shoes i would ask for a postponementjust because - were in your shoes i would ask for a postponement just because there . were in your shoes i would ask for a i postponementjust because there has been so _ postponementjust because there has been so much — postponementjust because there has been so much political— postponementjust because there has been so much political controversy. been so much political controversy about _ been so much political controversy about this — been so much political controversy about this that _ been so much political controversy about this that it's _ been so much political controversy about this that it's bound - been so much political controversy about this that it's bound to - been so much political controversy about this that it's bound to bring i about this that it's bound to bring the wrong — about this that it's bound to bring the wrong sort _ about this that it's bound to bring the wrong sort of _ about this that it's bound to bring the wrong sort of people, - about this that it's bound to bring the wrong sort of people, the - about this that it's bound to bring - the wrong sort of people, the tommy robihsohs_ the wrong sort of people, the tommy robinsons of— the wrong sort of people, the tommy robinsons of this _ the wrong sort of people, the tommy robinsons of this world _ the wrong sort of people, the tommy robinsons of this world out _ the wrong sort of people, the tommy robinsons of this world out and - robinsons of this world out and there's— robinsons of this world out and there's going _ robinsons of this world out and there's going to _ robinsons of this world out and there's going to be _ robinsons of this world out and there's going to be a _ robinsons of this world out and there's going to be a level- robinsons of this world out and there's going to be a level of. there's going to be a level of trouble — there's going to be a level of trouble and _ there's going to be a level of trouble and it _ there's going to be a level of trouble and it may _ there's going to be a level of trouble and it may get - there's going to be a level of trouble and it may get out i there's going to be a level of trouble and it may get out of controi _ trouble and it may get out of controi if— trouble and it may get out of controi if i— trouble and it may get out of control. if i had _ trouble and it may get out of control. if i had advised - trouble and it may get out of control. if i had advised that| trouble and it may get out ofi control. if i had advised that i would — control. if i had advised that i would have _ control. if i had advised that i would have been— control. if i had advised that i would have been wrong - control. if i had advised that i i would have been wrong because control. if i had advised that i - would have been wrong because i agree _ would have been wrong because i agree with — would have been wrong because i agree with nadine, _ would have been wrong because i agree with nadine, he _ would have been wrong because i agree with nadine, he just - would have been wrong because i agree with nadine, he just abouti agree with nadine, he just about made _ agree with nadine, he just about made the — agree with nadine, he just about made the right— agree with nadine, he just about made the rightjudgment- agree with nadine, he just about made the rightjudgment here i agree with nadine, he just about. made the rightjudgment here and agree with nadine, he just about- made the rightjudgment here and the police _ made the rightjudgment here and the police did _ made the rightjudgment here and the police did a _ made the rightjudgment here and the police did a pretty— made the rightjudgment here and the police did a pretty good _ made the rightjudgment here and the police did a pretty good job _ made the rightjudgment here and the police did a pretty good job in- police did a pretty good job in managing _ police did a pretty good job in managing it. _ police did a pretty good job in managing it. it— police did a pretty good job in managing it, it could - police did a pretty good job in managing it, it could still- police did a pretty good job ini managing it, it could still have gone _ managing it, it could still have gone wrong _ managing it, it could still have gone wrong with _ managing it, it could still have gone wrong with those - managing it, it could still have i gone wrong with those potential clashes — gone wrong with those potential clashes between _ gone wrong with those potential clashes between marchers- gone wrong with those potential clashes between marchers and i clashes between marchers and right-wingers, _ clashes between marchers and right—wingers, but _ clashes between marchers and right—wingers, but in - clashes between marchers and right—wingers, but in the - clashes between marchers and right—wingers, but in the end i clashes between marchers andl right—wingers, but in the end it happened — right—wingers, but in the end it happened and _ right—wingers, but in the end it happened and i'm _ right—wingers, but in the end it happened and i'm glad - right—wingers, but in the end it happened and i'm glad it- right—wingers, but in the end it happened and i'm glad it did i right—wingers, but in the end it - happened and i'm glad it did because freedom _ happened and i'm glad it did because freedom of— happened and i'm glad it did because freedom of speech _ happened and i'm glad it did because freedom of speech principle - happened and i'm glad it did because freedom of speech principle was - freedom of speech principle was respected — freedom of speech principle was respected and _ freedom of speech principle was respected and in _ freedom of speech principle was respected and in that _ freedom of speech principle was respected and in that sense - freedom of speech principle was respected and in that sense i. freedom of speech principle was . respected and in that sense i think it was— respected and in that sense i think it was successful. _ respected and in that sense i think it was successful. i— respected and in that sense i think it was successful. i don't _ respected and in that sense i think it was successful. i don't agree - it was successful. i don't agree with what was _ it was successful. i don't agree with what was said, _ it was successful. i don't agree with what was said, i _ it was successful. i don't agree with what was said, i don't - with what was said, i don't recognise _ with what was said, i don't recognise the _ with what was said, i don't recognise the description i with what was said, i don'tl recognise the description of with what was said, i don't - recognise the description of the police _ recognise the description of the police as— recognise the description of the police as biased. _ recognise the description of the police as biased. infe— recognise the description of the police as biased.— recognise the description of the police as biased. we talk to grant sha -s police as biased. we talk to grant shapps after— police as biased. we talk to grant shapps after the _ police as biased. we talk to grant shapps after the prime _ police as biased. we talk to grant shapps after the prime minister. police as biased. we talk to grant i shapps after the prime minister had condemned the thuggery during yesterday's protests and the anti—semitism on display during some of the march. this is what grant shapps had to say about what went wrong. shapps had to say about what went wronu. �* . ., , shapps had to say about what went wron. a ._ ., wrong. actually i was at the cenotaph — wrong. actually i was at the cenotaph yesterday - wrong. actually i was at the cenotaph yesterday laying l wrong. actually i was at the cenotaph yesterday laying a wrong. actually i was at the - cenotaph yesterday laying a wreath and to see and hear actually specifically people disrupting proceedings is obviously distressing, we are all there to come together to remember the brave men and women. as it happens the edl had already said they were going there so i'm not sure that what is connected to the other at all. the fact of the matter is there are people who i'm afraid don't really want to respect remembrance weekend and it doesn't matter whether they are the far right, edl, or i'm afraid some of the protesters on the other side. afraid some of the protesters on the otherside. it's afraid some of the protesters on the other side. it's not a respectful thing to do during remembrance weekend when we should all be there to remember the brave men and women who have laid down their lives for this country. find who have laid down their lives for this country-— this country. and and no one seeing the images — this country. and and no one seeing the images of _ this country. and and no one seeing the images of what _ this country. and and no one seeing the images of what happened, - this country. and and no one seeing | the images of what happened, thugs intent on causing trouble, the police were clear they've been involved in football hooliganism before looking for a fight, however there's been widespread consent before this weekend that the kind of sentiment that suella braverman your colleague was using would stir up precisely this kind of thing. what is very interesting i think to a lot of people this morning as the police themselves on the record have implied that this was the case. i'd like to show everyone what the met police said late last night, they said there were unique circumstances with the backdrop of conflict in the middle east but look at this, following a week of intense debate about protest and policing, these are all combined to increase community tensions. now, if we do a bit of translate on that, it's the police implying very clearly that the home secretary's sterling up of this debate made things worse. 50. this debate made things worse. so, look, this debate made things worse. so, look. there — this debate made things worse. so, look, there was lots this debate made things worse. sr,3, look, there was lots of this debate made things worse. sr3, look, there was lots of debate in the week beforehand, quite rightly, we live in a drip aquatic society about whether on remembrance weekend when you have both armistice day on the saturday and then of course today itself, where once again people will be back at the cenotaph, whether this was the weekend to go out and protest and whether that's going to protest for one cause or just turning up as thugs. now that i think was particularly coming for this weekend, that's a perfectly proper debate to have in a democratic society. there is no reason not to have those discussions. i think it would have been better if people concentrated on the remembrance part of this. it's quite unsurprising there would be a debate about, you know, hundreds and thousands of people coming out for other means. but you sa it coming out for other means. but you say it would — coming out for other means. but you say it would have _ coming out for other means. but you say it would have been _ coming out for other means. but you say it would have been better- coming out for other means. but you say it would have been better to - say it would have been better to focus on remembrance. would it have been better then if suella braverman had not, as she did in the pages of the times newspaper, without full sanction from number ten, suggested that the police don't always play fair? , ., ., . ~ fair? festival on the police i think it's incredibly _ fair? festival on the police i think it's incredibly important - fair? festival on the police i think it's incredibly important that - fair? festival on the police i think. it's incredibly important that where people have breached the law going out carrying banners with swastikas on them for example, shouting from the river to the sea, which is clearly an anti—semitic trope, that they arrest people and that they prosecute. i think that is very important. it's also true to say the police have an incredibly difficult job to do and i want to pay tribute to their work yesterday, in policing what is a very complex picture particularly in london and to answer your question directly, as others in cabinet have said i wouldn't use that set of words myself but i do think that the sentiment that it's very important notjust to take action but also to get the prosecutions and essentially ensure that people don't feel that they can do these things, say these things, waive these banners around, sometimes supporting proscribed organisations as in hamas without sanction is also very important. the olice sanction is also very important. the police have — sanction is also very important. the police have said that the debate which was prompted by your colleague suella braverman and you've just said you wouldn't have said what she said. i said you wouldn't have said what she said. ., �* ., , .,, said. i wouldn't have used those words. said. i wouldn't have used those words- so _ said. i wouldn't have used those words- so you — said. i wouldn't have used those words. so you and _ said. i wouldn't have used those words. so you and many - said. i wouldn't have used those . words. so you and many colleagues have distanced _ words. so you and many colleagues have distanced yourself— words. so you and many colleagues have distanced yourself from - words. so you and many colleagues have distanced yourself from those | have distanced yourself from those remarks and the police have said the debate increased tensions in the community. it's pretty remarkable, isn't it, when you have the police and other people sitting alongside the home secretary and cabinet basically pointing the finger and saying she shouldn't have said what she said and also it made things worse and conservatives have this too, one of your colleagues, the minister paul scully said she had been fuelling hatred and division. i'm saying i do think it's very important that the police act quickly, i think there have been concerns sometimes that people have felt at liberty, let me just finish one thought, if i may come at liberty perhaps because they haven't seen swift enough action to carry on going out carrying these banners singing these chance and breaking laws which are in place to prevent racial hatred. 0n the other hand i wouldn't put it in those particular set of words because i recognise the police have a very difficultjob to do in managing marches which contain large numbers of people, a lot of that work has to be done afterwards. it does sound like you are rather blaming the police for not having been quick enough to clamp down on this kind of thing. the been quick enough to clamp down on this kind of thing.— this kind of thing. the problem with not actin: this kind of thing. the problem with not acting swiftly _ this kind of thing. the problem with not acting swiftly and _ this kind of thing. the problem with not acting swiftly and of _ this kind of thing. the problem with not acting swiftly and of his - this kind of thing. the problem with not acting swiftly and of his you - not acting swiftly and of his you don't end up with people experiencing the consequences of breaking the law. again, we saw yesterday on that large march, people chanting, carrying banners which are designed to stir up racial hatred, which are designed to support a terrorist organisation. it's very important to crack down on that. at the same time i'm not blaming the police in fact because i think they have an incredible difficultjob to do that is you are trying to do two things, praising the police for doing a difficultjob but you are clearly saying they haven't been tough enough on this kind of thing at protests. does the home secretary in your view bear no responsibility for the disorder that we saw yesterday? just to be absolutely clear, the people who bear entire responsibility other thugs who turned up in and around the cenotaph area in whitehall and then in chinatown and elsewhere. just the home secretary bear no responsibility? the just the home secretary bear no responsibility?— responsibility? the police quite riuhtl responsibility? the police quite rightly refer— responsibility? the police quite rightly refer to _ responsibility? the police quite rightly refer to the _ responsibility? the police quite rightly refer to the debate - responsibility? the police quite rightly refer to the debate as i responsibility? the police quite| rightly refer to the debate as to whether this weekend was the right weekend to go out and protest. iwhich weekend to go out and protest. which was stirred up — weekend to go out and protest. which was stirred up by _ weekend to go out and protest. which was stirred up by your— weekend to go out and protest. which was stirred up by your colleague suella braverman.— was stirred up by your colleague suella braverman. when you say stirred up. _ suella braverman. when you say stirred up, discussed _ suella braverman. when you say stirred up, discussed by, - suella braverman. when you say stirred up, discussed by, we - suella braverman. when you say stirred up, discussed by, we live| suella braverman. when you say i stirred up, discussed by, we live in a democratic society, it's stirred up, discussed by, we live in a democratic society, its proper to discuss whether it's an appropriate weekend. she discuss whether it's an appropriate weekend. , ., weekend. she also defied downing street by putting _ weekend. she also defied downing street by putting a _ weekend. she also defied downing street by putting a published - street by putting a published article into the times without making all the edits that downing street had wanted her to make. it's not really about that, it's about authority. she defied the orders of downing street. should she be sacked? plenty of your colleagues have told me privately that she might be sacked tomorrow or maybe wednesday, will suella braverman be so —— will suella braverman be home secretary by the end of the week? i secretary by the end of the week? i don't know the ins and outs of how the article was published in this particular case and the prime minister is in charge of whoever he wants in his cabinet and he will make that decision whenever he wants to reshuffle or whether he does want to reshuffle or whether he does want to reshuffle or whether he does want to reshuffle his cabinet, i don't come with new use on that front. but it would be easier for you as her callum bennett colleague not to have to go around cleaning up controversies that have been caused by suella braverman because it's not the first time, is it? i by suella braverman because it's not the first time, is it?— the first time, is it? i 'ust don't think h the first time, is it? i 'ust don't think see things _ the first time, is it? i 'ust don't think see things that h the first time, is it? ijust don't think see things that way. - the first time, is it? ijust don't think see things that way. we live in a society where people are free to debate issues, not all of us are going to agree all the time with everything that's said. the principle — everything that's said. the principle of _ everything that's said. the principle of cabinet - everything that's said. the principle of cabinet government is discipline, it's that you stick together, its not that you have cabinet ministers going around the place as some of your colleagues see it as shooting their mouth off, stirring up headlines for themselves, day after day. this isn't an isolated incident, lots of your colleagues have had enough of suella braverman behaving as she does and for as long as this goes on does and for as long as this goes on doesin does and for as long as this goes on does in the prime minister risk looking a bit weak, like he can't do anything about it because he doesn't have the power?— have the power? i know it is always tem -atin have the power? i know it is always tempting to — have the power? i know it is always tempting to personalise _ have the power? i know it is always tempting to personalise is - have the power? i know it is always tempting to personalise is about. have the power? i know it is always l tempting to personalise is about one individual. it is tempting to personalise is about one individual. , ., individual. it is the home secretary. _ individual. it is the home secretary, not _ individual. it is the home secretary, notjust - individual. it is the home secretary, notjust some | individual. it is the home - secretary, notjust some random person! secretary, not 'ust some random erson! ,, secretary, not 'ust some random erson! , , secretary, not 'ust some random erson! . , ., person! sure, but then we get into, would ou person! sure, but then we get into, would you have _ person! sure, but then we get into, would you have used _ person! sure, but then we get into, would you have used this _ person! sure, but then we get into, would you have used this word - person! sure, but then we get into, would you have used this word or. would you have used this word or phrase that in an article or something like that. this is the minutiae. the bigger picture is that the government is clear in its stance against terrorism and the idea that people should not be able to go on to british streets, and ideally not this weekend of weekends, and in some cases promote those terrorists. we will see what the next couple of days bring, because i think words do matter, and it does matter very much as it's around the cabinet table. finally, we are also speaking in a few minutes to president herzog of israel. but some of israel's allies, like france, like the united states, are starting to express concerns about the response. do you think israel has gone too far in its response to the horror of what has happened? president macron even said it should stop, it should be a ceasefire. does the uk believe that israel is acting proportionally? the uk believes _ israel is acting proportionally? tia: uk believes strongly that israel is acting proportionally? t'i2 uk believes strongly that israel must act within international humanitarian law.— must act within international humanitarian law. that is not my cuestion. humanitarian law. that is not my question. secondly, _ humanitarian law. that is not my question. secondly, i— humanitarian law. that is not my question. secondly, i have- humanitarian law. that is not my question. secondly, i have seen| humanitarian law. that is not my i question. secondly, i have seen and actually read — question. secondly, i have seen and actually read on _ question. secondly, i have seen and actually read on the _ question. secondly, i have seen and actually read on the bbc _ question. secondly, i have seen and actually read on the bbc in - actually read on the bbc in particular, very detailed accounts of how israeli military leaders have called up people and ask for their assistance in assuring that civilians in gaza are moved before they go after hamas terrorists. we have sort of forgotten that in war, very sadly, people lose their lives. when britain formed president, 35,000 people apparently lost their lives. —— when britain bombed dresden. people lose their lives in war. when an organisation like hamas hides and shields themselves under and within the civilian population, it is a sad fact some people will lose their lives. we it is a sad fact some people will lose their lives.— it is a sad fact some people will lose their lives. ~ .. , ., lose their lives. we can see though, that some allies, _ lose their lives. we can see though, that some allies, like _ lose their lives. we can see though, that some allies, like the _ lose their lives. we can see though, that some allies, like the us - lose their lives. we can see though, that some allies, like the us and . that some allies, like the us and france, are uneasy with the scale of that response. that is not to say no civilians will be caught up in this. that is the sad reality of what people see happening right now. but i ask again, do you believe what israel is doing is proportionate? i think israel is in a difficult place, because when they go after the terrorist, some civilians are getting caught up. no one wants to see a civilian life, no matter whether an israeli or someone from gaza, taken. however, if britain had been subject to an attack of terrorists coming in, murdering 1&00 people, cutting off heads, and we knew where those terrorists had gone, no one would say to britain, stop going after them, even though, you know, those tunnels, those caves they operate from, where all of those tens of thousands of rockets are being stored, how can we ask israel not to go and destroy those bunkers? and unfortunately in war, you end up in a situation where the people get caught up in it. the answers for hamas stop using this people as human shields. and by the way, release the over 200 hostages they have, some of whom are brits. and so we should absolutely be on the side of right, and right in this case is going after hamas. can you tell us anything — case is going after hamas. can you tell us anything about _ case is going after hamas. can you tell us anything about the - case is going after hamas. can you tell us anything about the british i tell us anything about the british hostages you mentioned there? emir; hostages you mentioned there? only that we are working our socks off to try and get them released, working very closely in ways i can't go into on and i am arranging to speak to the families of some of the british hostages as well. our thoughts are with those who are being held, well over 200, with those who are being held, well over200, every with those who are being held, well over 200, every single day. i think they have in some ways been forgotten in this conflict. it is where it started, and the wrong is entirely on how much' side for keeping them hostage at this time. thank you for coming in. we must let you get after the service at the cenotaph. what did you think of what mr shapps had to say? let us know — email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag #bbclaurak. there's always tonnes going on on the bbc website as we're on air too. however many people were on the streets here, israel's bombardment of gaza goes on. this weekend, surgeons at gaza's largest hospital, al—shifa, claim the intensive care unit was hit and the facility has run out of water, food and electricity. with allies calling for more caution, how long can this retaliation for the appalling october 7th attacks go on? early this morning, i asked israel's president what those hamas attacks that day had changed. we are extremely agonised. we are a nation which is an optimistic nation. we are a peace—loving nation and we strive for the inclusion of our nation in the region as such, and we are a nation that have contributed and we will always contribute to the well—being of humanity, and all of a sudden our world was shattered because many of our beliefs in the fact that we can live side by side with palestinian neighbours were shattered. in that morning, the most horrific atrocities since world war i! took place and many of the casualties were the biggest proponents and supporters of peace ever in the history of israel, and they were all butchered and chopped and killed and abducted and raped and the amount of pain and suffering and the horrific information that flows ever since because hamas had filmed it all and broadcasted it all live and also afterwards on the cameras on their bodies is unending. you know, today is armistice day. armistice day in the united kingdom. for me, it's always a special day because my late father was a high—ranking british officer in world war ii who landed in normandy and liberated belgium and holland and went all the way to bergen—belsen concentration camp as one of the first officers to enter that hell, place of hell, and until today, i meet survivors from that camp, so today is armistice day, and on that day and on this weekend you have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people supporting by their demonstration supporting hamas. i want to show you something exclusive, laura, so this is adolf hitler's book translated to arabic, mein kampf. it's the book that led to the holocaust and the book that led to world war ii. this is the book that led to his victory in elections in germany, which led to the worst atrocity of humankind, which the british fought against. well, this book was found just a few days ago in northern gaza in a children's living room which was turned into a military operation base of hamas on the body of one of the terrorists and murderers of hamas, and he even marked, he wrote notes, he marked and learned and learned again and again adolf hitler's ideology of hating thejews, of killing thejews, of burning thejews, of slaughtering the jews. this is the real war we are at. so all those who demonstrated yesterday, i'm not saying that all of them support hitler, but all i'm saying is by omitting to understand what hamas ideology is all about they are basically supporting this ideology. there will be many people who were on the streets, notjust in london but other capitals around the world, who were on the streets because they want to see an end to the violence in the middle east. viewers will hear the hurt and agony you have expressed, that israelis have felt, but your allies, many of the people who back israel, believe that the extent of your response has now gone too far. president macron has called for a ceasefire. he said israel is killing babies and it needs to stop. the secretary of state of the united states, antony blinken, has said too many palestinians are being killed. isn't it time, president herzog, that you listened to your allies, notwithstanding that terrible pain of your countrymen? so, first of all, we of course listen to our allies, but first and foremost, we defend ourselves, and president macron already last night and even today in an article in le parisien actually corrected the image that came out of that interview because of course he made it clear israel does not intentionally kill civilians, children and innocent people, god forbid we don't. we operate according exactly according... wait, wait, you have to enable me. we work exactly according to the rules of international humanitarian law. we alert each and every civilian because their homes have become terror bases. please go out, we send them leaflets, we call them, we phone them, we text them, we enable them to go down, we give them humanitarian pauses so they can go down. unfortunately there are tragedies, we don't shy away from them, but truly many of the tragedies are done by hamas. like, they bombed shifa hospital yesterday, not israel, and we can go on and on explaining this but one thing is clear. we need to eradicate that terror machine. we need to eradicate this isis, hamas, hitler ideology. that is the truth. 0therwise, isis, hamas, hitler ideology. that is the truth. otherwise, you won't have peace in the middle east, and believe me, i have supported peace in the middle east all my life, but unfortunately, so long as there is terror, no one can indirectly or directly support terror, because thatis directly support terror, because that is the reason we are at war. but you say there that al—shifa hospital was bombed not by israel, but there are reports on the ground of babies dying in the neonatal unit after power to their incubators was cut off. you say gazans... that after power to their incubators was cut off. you say gazans. . .- cut off. you say gazans. .. that is not true. — cut off. you say gazans. .. that is not true. by _ cut off. you say gazans. .. that is not true, by the _ cut off. you say gazans. .. that is not true, by the way. _ cut off. you say gazans. .. that is not true, by the way. it _ cut off. you say gazans. .. that is not true, by the way. it is - cut off. you say gazans. .. that is not true, by the way. it is not - not true, by the way. it is not true. we deny this. there is a lot of spin by hamas, but there is electricity in al—shifa, everything is operating, we are speaking to the managers. we have not gone into al—shifa. we are unfortunately —— unfortunately, underneath al—shifa, there is a huge, huge terror base. actually, the headquarters of hamas isis operations is right there under al—shifa. exactly what are we supposed to do? leave it as is, and then in a few years' time, go again through the same motion? and you will say it is disproportionate then we will have civilians being killed? we are calling on all of those uninvolved to go out and go to another hospital nearby, and we are coordinating it very delicately with all other forces around. the world health organization this morning has said they have lost communications with that hospital and there are reports from doctors there on the ground about a terrible situation, and our viewers can see the images from gaza that many people have not been able to leave, they have not been able to escape. because hamas is stopping them. but you have mentioned... we are short of time and i would like to move on to what is happening next. for decades, there has been conflict on your part of the world, and there has never been a military solution. so what is israel's endgame? how do you bring this to an end? prime minister netanyahu has said israel will take security responsibility for gaza for an indefinite period. that sounds like a full on occupation. is that your plan? a full on occupation. is that your lan? a full on occupation. is that your ian? , ., a full on occupation. is that your lan? , ., ., a full on occupation. is that your lan? , . ., ., a full on occupation. is that your lan? , ., ., ., , plan? let me explain to you and 'ust remind your— plan? let me explain to you and 'ust remind your viewers i plan? let me explain to you and 'ust remind your viewers that i plan? let me explain to you and 'ust remind your viewers that we i plan? let me explain to you and just remind your viewers that we have i remind your viewers that we have actually tested all options. we have had peace treaties, we have had agreements, we had a unilateral pull—out from gaza itself 2005. we took all of everybody. unfortunately, we got terror, because the iranians supported hamas in 2007 kicked out the palestinian authority, which is another example of the failure of the palestinians to adhere to the agreement... 50 to adhere to the agreement... so what is the solution nowa weight! to adhere to the agreement... so - what is the solution nowa weight! we had tens of thousands _ what is the solution nowa weight! we had tens of thousands of _ what is the solution nowa weight! we had tens of thousands of missiles. i had tens of thousands of missiles. so there is a real question, how do we get to peace? and you know what is the real answer? first, stop terror. terror is work derailed all peace agreements in the region. terror is the aim. the aim of terror is to derail the current agreements and the normalisation with its arab neighbours. but i am actually hopeful, because i believe the train has left the station, and i adamantly believe in the fact that we can get to peace. but we can get to peace if people adhere to the agreements but atrocious terror like we have seen, like the world has not seen since world war ii, must be eradicated completely so we can give hope to our neighbours the palestinians. but president herzog, do you accept israel's own activities in the west bank have fuelled palestinian anger that one has been happening over the last few years has been part of the problem, stoking feelings up? l last few years has been part of the problem, stoking feelings up? t can problem, stoking feelings up? i can no on and problem, stoking feelings up? i can go on and on _ problem, stoking feelings up? i can go on and on about _ problem, stoking feelings up? ican go on and on about that. you know why? because when there was the oslo accords, there were suicide bombers for years and years that simply derailed any ability to get to peace, and forced us to use much more military means. unfortunately, the palestinian authority has failed time and again at combating terror from its own courtyard, and do you know why? because part of their education system is filled with hate, with prejudice, with curses, with all swords of information which is distorted against what dues are, what israel is all about, including this type of stuff, this isis material which we find all over gaza, in their own schools, where we find in those schools bombs and grenades and missiles in schools and mosques. so part of the real gist of why it failed so far is the education of the people, something which israel has alerted time and again, and the fact that terror was becoming legitimate in some quarters of palestinian society. this is what we have to work on. parallel to the ability to sit down and speak and find ways and means towards a better future in the future. president herzog, thank you for your time this morning. thank you very much. president herzog there, speaking a little earlier. and it's always hard to sort claim from counterclaim in the midst of conflict, but the bbc will always try to get to the truth. kim darroch, is a former senior diplomat, listening to that, do you think israel is concerned at all about using the support of its allies —— losing the support of its allies? we've heard from president macron and antony blinken suggesting they are going too far. do you think they are going too far. do you think the picture is changing? l they are going too far. do you think the picture is changing?— the picture is changing? i think it is shiftin: the picture is changing? i think it is shifting a _ the picture is changing? i think it is shifting a bit. _ the picture is changing? i think it is shifting a bit. up _ the picture is changing? i think it is shifting a bit. up to _ the picture is changing? i think it is shifting a bit. up to a - the picture is changing? i think it is shifting a bit. up to a point - is shifting a bit. up to a point israei— is shifting a bit. up to a point israel does _ is shifting a bit. up to a point israel does care _ is shifting a bit. up to a point israel does care about - is shifting a bit. up to a point israel does care about what l is shifting a bit. up to a point i israel does care about what the is shifting a bit. up to a point - israel does care about what the west is saying. _ israel does care about what the west is saying. it — israel does care about what the west is saying. it cares _ israel does care about what the west is saying, it cares in _ israel does care about what the west is saying, it cares in particular- is saying, it cares in particular about— is saying, it cares in particular about what— is saying, it cares in particular about what america _ is saying, it cares in particular about what america is - is saying, it cares in particular about what america is saying, is saying, it cares in particular. about what america is saying, so messages — about what america is saying, so messages coming _ about what america is saying, so messages coming out _ about what america is saying, so messages coming out of - about what america is saying, so messages coming out of europel about what america is saying, so - messages coming out of europe have less impact— messages coming out of europe have less impact than— messages coming out of europe have less impact than whatever _ messages coming out of europe have less impact than whatever the - messages coming out of europe have less impact than whatever the united states— less impact than whatever the united states is— less impact than whatever the united states is saying. _ less impact than whatever the united states is saying, but _ less impact than whatever the united states is saying, but in _ less impact than whatever the united states is saying, but in the _ less impact than whatever the united states is saying, but in the end - less impact than whatever the united states is saying, but in the end the i states is saying, but in the end the israelis _ states is saying, but in the end the israelis don't — states is saying, but in the end the israelis don't trust _ states is saying, but in the end the israelis don't trust anyone - states is saying, but in the end the israelis don't trust anyone with - israelis don't trust anyone with their— israelis don't trust anyone with their own — israelis don't trust anyone with their own security— israelis don't trust anyone with their own security other - israelis don't trust anyone with their own security other than i their own security other than themselves _ their own security other than themselves. i— their own security other than themselves. i think- their own security other than themselves. i think that - their own security other than themselves. i think that in i their own security other than - themselves. i think that in private themselves. i think that in private the americans _ themselves. i think that in private the americans in— themselves. i think that in private the americans in particular, - themselves. i think that in private the americans in particular, may. themselves. i think that in private i the americans in particular, may be other— the americans in particular, may be other too, _ the americans in particular, may be othertoo, are — the americans in particular, may be other too, are giving _ the americans in particular, may be other too, are giving some - the americans in particular, may be other too, are giving some quite . other too, are giving some quite tough _ other too, are giving some quite tough messages _ other too, are giving some quite tough messages to _ other too, are giving some quite tough messages to the - other too, are giving some quite tough messages to the israeli i tough messages to the israeli government— tough messages to the israeli government about _ tough messages to the israeli government about our- tough messages to the israeli government about our need i tough messages to the israeli i government about our need for military— government about our need for military pause _ government about our need for military pause —— _ government about our need for military pause —— humanitarianj military pause —— humanitarian pauses— military pause —— humanitarian pauses which _ military pause —— humanitarian pauses which have _ military pause —— humanitarian pauses which have sort - military pause —— humanitarian pauses which have sort of - military pause —— humanitarian. pauses which have sort of started although— pauses which have sort of started although briefly— pauses which have sort of started although briefly each _ pauses which have sort of started although briefly each day - pauses which have sort of started although briefly each day and - pauses which have sort of started although briefly each day and the j although briefly each day and the need _ although briefly each day and the need to— although briefly each day and the need to minimise _ although briefly each day and the need to minimise civilian - although briefly each day and the i need to minimise civilian casualties as the _ need to minimise civilian casualties as the death — need to minimise civilian casualties as the death toll— need to minimise civilian casualties as the death toll mounts _ need to minimise civilian casualties as the death toll mounts in - need to minimise civilian casualties as the death toll mounts in gaza, i as the death toll mounts in gaza, those _ as the death toll mounts in gaza, those message _ as the death toll mounts in gaza, those message i— as the death toll mounts in gaza, those message i believe - as the death toll mounts in gaza, those message i believe in- as the death toll mounts in gaza, i those message i believe in private are getting — those message i believe in private are getting tougher. _ those message i believe in private are getting tougher. we've - those message i believe in private are getting tougher. we've even. those message i believe in private i are getting tougher. we've even had antony— are getting tougher. we've even had antony blinken — are getting tougher. we've even had antony blinken saying _ are getting tougher. we've even had antony blinken saying something. are getting tougher. we've even had . antony blinken saying something more public about _ antony blinken saying something more public about this — antony blinken saying something more public about this so _ antony blinken saying something more public about this so the _ antony blinken saying something more public about this so the pressure - antony blinken saying something more public about this so the pressure on . public about this so the pressure on them _ public about this so the pressure on them is _ public about this so the pressure on them is mounting _ public about this so the pressure on them is mounting and _ public about this so the pressure on them is mounting and every- public about this so the pressure on them is mounting and every day- public about this so the pressure oni them is mounting and every day that this offensive. — them is mounting and every day that this offensive, this _ them is mounting and every day that this offensive, this operation - them is mounting and every day that this offensive, this operation in- this offensive, this operation in gaza _ this offensive, this operation in gaza city— this offensive, this operation in gaza city continues, _ this offensive, this operation in gaza city continues, i— this offensive, this operation in gaza city continues, ithink- this offensive, this operation in gaza city continues, i think a i gaza city continues, i think a little — gaza city continues, i think a little bit _ gaza city continues, ! think a little bit of— gaza city continues, i think a little bit of western - gaza city continues, i think a little bit of western public. little bit of western public support, _ little bit of western public support, media _ little bit of western public support, media support. little bit of western public. support, media support and little bit of western public- support, media support and may be political— support, media support and may be political support, _ support, media support and may be political support, ebbs_ support, media support and may be political support, ebbs away, - support, media support and may be political support, ebbs away, but. support, media support and may be political support, ebbs away, but in| political support, ebbs away, but in the end _ political support, ebbs away, but in the end the — political support, ebbs away, but in the end the israelis— political support, ebbs away, but in the end the israelis will— political support, ebbs away, but in the end the israelis will ultimatelyl the end the israelis will ultimately take their— the end the israelis will ultimately take their own— the end the israelis will ultimately take their own decision _ the end the israelis will ultimately take their own decision about - the end the israelis will ultimately| take their own decision about what they need — take their own decision about what they need for— take their own decision about what they need for their— take their own decision about what they need for their own _ take their own decision about what they need for their own security. i they need for their own security. you've _ they need for their own security. you've also _ they need for their own security. you've also got _ they need for their own security. you've also got to _ they need for their own security. you've also got to consider - they need for their own security. you've also got to consider and i agree _ you've also got to consider and i agree with — you've also got to consider and i agree with that, you have to consider— agree with that, you have to consider domestic opinion in israel itself— consider domestic opinion in israel itself and — consider domestic opinion in israel itself and people sometimes forget thatjust _ itself and people sometimes forget thatjust like britain isn't a monolith and we have differences of opinion— monolith and we have differences of opinion about difficult subjects, the same — opinion about difficult subjects, the same will be true of israelis and one — the same will be true of israelis and one of— the same will be true of israelis and one of the reasons why i really think— and one of the reasons why i really think that — and one of the reasons why i really think that now, after over a month, it's time _ think that now, after over a month, it's time to — think that now, after over a month, it's time to look towards a ceasefire, is the hostages are not free andm — ceasefire, is the hostages are not free and- - -_ free and... the israeli hostages. the israeli _ free and... the israeli hostages. the israeli hostages _ free and... the israeli hostages. the israeli hostages are - free and... the israeli hostages. | the israeli hostages are probably free and... the israeli hostages. i the israeli hostages are probably in the tunnels and the longer this goes on with— the tunnels and the longer this goes on with general bombardment rather than some _ on with general bombardment rather than some attempt at either negotiation or extraction, those remaining — negotiation or extraction, those remaining hostages, which many israelis _ remaining hostages, which many israelis think should be the priority— israelis think should be the priority for the government, i think personally— priority for the government, i think personally i found president macron very compelling in his interview and notjust— very compelling in his interview and notjust on— very compelling in his interview and notjust on this very compelling in his interview and not just on this subject but other topics _ not just on this subject but other topics too, — not just on this subject but other topics too, but i also think this is going _ topics too, but i also think this is going to — topics too, but i also think this is going to become counter—productive to israeiis' _ going to become counter—productive to israelis' own long term is p6 security— to israelis' own long term is p6 security because i would respect —— with respect— security because i would respect —— with respect to president herzog at this very— with respect to president herzog at this very difficult time for him and his people — this very difficult time for him and his people i don't think hamas is a machine _ his people i don't think hamas is a machine as— his people i don't think hamas is a machine as he described it, it's more _ machine as he described it, it's more like — machine as he described it, it's more like an organism and you can't destroy— more like an organism and you can't destroy that — more like an organism and you can't destroy that ideology with bombs alone _ destroy that ideology with bombs alone in— destroy that ideology with bombs alone. in the end you have to create an alternative and some hope so people _ an alternative and some hope so people do— an alternative and some hope so people do not become recruited to the cause, — people do not become recruited to the cause, future generations don't become _ the cause, future generations don't become recruited to the terrorist because — become recruited to the terrorist because. , ., ., , ., ., because. kim, is a former diplomat, if ou are because. kim, is a former diplomat, if you are looking _ because. kim, is a former diplomat, if you are looking at _ because. kim, is a former diplomat, if you are looking at this _ because. kim, is a former diplomat, if you are looking at this on - because. kim, is a former diplomat, if you are looking at this on paper. if you are looking at this on paper and thinking what could be a solution, what could it be? is there any prospect of a political solution any prospect of a political solution any time soon?— any prospect of a political solution an time soon? ., , , ., ., , any time soon? probably not any time soon if we are — any time soon? probably not any time soon if we are talking _ any time soon? probably not any time soon if we are talking about _ any time soon? probably not any time soon if we are talking about days - soon if we are talking about days and weeks — soon if we are talking about days and weeks. this _ soon if we are talking about days and weeks. this israeli _ soon if we are talking about days and weeks. this israeli ground i and weeks. this israeli ground operation _ and weeks. this israeli ground operation is _ and weeks. this israeli ground operation is likely— and weeks. this israeli ground operation is likely to _ and weeks. this israeli ground operation is likely to carry- and weeks. this israeli ground operation is likely to carry on i and weeks. this israeli ground i operation is likely to carry on for a few— operation is likely to carry on for a few weeks— operation is likely to carry on for a few weeks yet. _ operation is likely to carry on for a few weeks yet. i _ operation is likely to carry on for a few weeks yet. i think- operation is likely to carry on for a few weeks yet. i think they - operation is likely to carry on forj a few weeks yet. i think they are getting _ a few weeks yet. i think they are getting right _ a few weeks yet. i think they are getting right to _ a few weeks yet. i think they are getting right to the _ a few weeks yet. i think they are getting right to the centre - a few weeks yet. i think they are getting right to the centre of - a few weeks yet. i think they are i getting right to the centre of gaza city and _ getting right to the centre of gaza city and they _ getting right to the centre of gaza city and they will _ getting right to the centre of gaza city and they will want _ getting right to the centre of gaza city and they will want to - getting right to the centre of gaza city and they will want to go - getting right to the centre of gaza city and they will want to go to . getting right to the centre of gaza| city and they will want to go to the tunnels, _ city and they will want to go to the tunnels, they— city and they will want to go to the tunnels, they will— city and they will want to go to the tunnels, they will want _ city and they will want to go to the tunnels, they will want to - city and they will want to go to the i tunnels, they will want to eliminate hamas— tunnels, they will want to eliminate hamas weapons _ tunnels, they will want to eliminate hamas weapons stores _ tunnels, they will want to eliminate hamas weapons stores and - tunnels, they will want to eliminate hamas weapons stores and this - tunnels, they will want to eliminate | hamas weapons stores and this kind of thing. _ hamas weapons stores and this kind ofthing, but— hamas weapons stores and this kind ofthing, but the _ hamas weapons stores and this kind of thing, but the striking _ hamas weapons stores and this kind of thing, but the striking thing - hamas weapons stores and this kind of thing, but the striking thing for. of thing, but the striking thing for me about — of thing, but the striking thing for me about isaac— of thing, but the striking thing for me about isaac herzog's - of thing, but the striking thing for| me about isaac herzog's interview was he _ me about isaac herzog's interview was he ducked _ me about isaac herzog's interview was he ducked the _ me about isaac herzog's interview was he ducked the question- me about isaac herzog's interview was he ducked the question about what next — was he ducked the question about what next. first— was he ducked the question about what next. first of— was he ducked the question about what next. first of all, _ was he ducked the question about what next. first of all, who - was he ducked the question about what next. first of all, who runs. what next. first of all, who runs gaza _ what next. first of all, who runs gaza when — what next. first of all, who runs gaza when the _ what next. first of all, who runs gaza when the military - what next. first of all, who runsi gaza when the military operation what next. first of all, who runs. gaza when the military operation is finished. _ gaza when the military operation is finished. and — gaza when the military operation is finished, and second, _ gaza when the military operation is finished, and second, long—term, i gaza when the military operation is i finished, and second, long—term, how do restart? _ finished, and second, long—term, how do restart? we — finished, and second, long—term, how do restart? we can't _ finished, and second, long—term, how do restart? we can't go _ finished, and second, long—term, how do restart? we can't go through- finished, and second, long—term, how do restart? we can't go through this i do restart? we can't go through this again. _ do restart? we can't go through this again. ten— do restart? we can't go through this again. ten wars— do restart? we can't go through this again, ten wars in— do restart? we can't go through this again, ten wars in israel— do restart? we can't go through this again, ten wars in israel since - do restart? we can't go through this again, ten wars in israel since its- again, ten wars in israel since its foundation — again, ten wars in israel since its foundation in _ again, ten wars in israel since its foundation in 1948, _ again, ten wars in israel since its foundation in 1948, this - again, ten wars in israel since its foundation in 1948, this has - again, ten wars in israel since its foundation in 1948, this has to. again, ten wars in israel since its| foundation in 1948, this has to be again, ten wars in israel since its. foundation in 1948, this has to be a foundation in1948, this has to be a trigger— foundation in1948, this has to be a trigger to— foundation in 1948, this has to be a trigger to the — foundation in 1948, this has to be a trigger to the process _ foundation in 1948, this has to be a trigger to the process of _ foundation in 1948, this has to be a trigger to the process of the - foundation in 1948, this has to be a trigger to the process of the two i trigger to the process of the two state _ trigger to the process of the two state solution _ trigger to the process of the two state solution and _ trigger to the process of the two state solution and it _ trigger to the process of the two state solution and it will- trigger to the process of the two state solution and it will not - trigger to the process of the twol state solution and it will not start with neto — state solution and it will not start with neto now— state solution and it will not start with neto now he _ state solution and it will not start with neto now he was _ state solution and it will not start with neto now he was israel's- state solution and it will not start i with neto now he was israel's prime minister _ with neto now he was israel's prime minister he — with neto now he was israel's prime minister. , , ., ., ., minister. he is unpopular at home. you have been _ minister. he is unpopular at home. you have been sticking _ minister. he is unpopular at home. you have been sticking to - minister. he is unpopular at home. you have been sticking to the - minister. he is unpopular at home. you have been sticking to the line | you have been sticking to the line that israel has a right to defend, grant shapps was reluctant to echo emmanuel macron, even tony blinken who had notes of caution. do you think the government is right to do that? ., , ., ,., ., think the government is right to do that? ., , ., ., , that? the two state solution is the way forward. _ that? the two state solution is the way forward, that's _ that? the two state solution is the way forward, that's what _ that? the two state solution is the way forward, that's what our - way forward, that's what our government should also be articulating, that's the place we need to get to hamas prevent that, they prevented us reaching that situation which has been desired in the region for many years now, but what we can't forget is that, you know, nobody wants to see the israelis don't want to bomb palestinian civilians or to murder babies orfor the palestinian civilians or to murder babies or for the palestinian civilians to be the consequences of these actions but at this —— but by these actions but at this —— but by the same token hamas did cross the border and rape and murder in the most appalling way 1400 israeli citizens. how would we respond if that was us? i think from the government's response these two situations are very difficult to find an solution to bring this together but there has to be a way whether government articulates yes, we back the israeli state, of course we back the israeli state, of course we do, but yes, we should also be looking peace in the region and for the palestinian people and the only way we can do that is to get to a two state solution. it’s way we can do that is to get to a two state solution.— two state solution. it's difficult for the labour _ two state solution. it's difficult for the labour party _ two state solution. it's difficult for the labour party as - two state solution. it's difficult for the labour party as well, i two state solution. it's difficult i for the labour party as well, you are someone associated with the fight for human rights, there are parts in your segment of the labour party it will be very unhappy with keir starmer refusing calls for a ceasefire. he lost a front this week over his refusal to do so. but it's interesting when you talk to people interesting when you talk to people in the party, one party source this week was reported shrugged off the problems of the resignations saying it was like shaking off the fleas. what did you feel when you heard that? ., what did you feel when you heard that? . . ., , . ., that? that particular piece of briefin: that? that particular piece of briefing and _ that? that particular piece of briefing and nadine - that? that particular piece of briefing and nadine has - that? that particular piece of. briefing and nadine has written that? that particular piece of- briefing and nadine has written a book— briefing and nadine has written a book about off the record briefings, it's not— book about off the record briefings, it's notjust — book about off the record briefings, it's notjust in your party if i may say, _ it's notjust in your party if i may say, to— it's notjust in your party if i may say, to use — it's notjust in your party if i may say, to use that phrase, particularly when so many, not all, but so _ particularly when so many, not all, but so many— particularly when so many, not all, but so many of the people who have been very— but so many of the people who have been very upset about the bombardment of gaza are british musiims— bombardment of gaza are british muslims including members of the party— muslims including members of the party voters for the party, to use that phrase is very inflammatory and arguably— that phrase is very inflammatory and arguably racist and if that was briefed — arguably racist and if that was briefed out by a press officer or somebody else working for the party, they should be disciplined. do somebody else working for the party, they should be disciplined.— they should be disciplined. do you think the leadership _ they should be disciplined. do you think the leadership should - they should be disciplined. do you think the leadership should hunt i they should be disciplined. do you i think the leadership should hunt out what happened there? l think the leadership should hunt out what happened there?— what happened there? i think that articular what happened there? i think that particular phrase _ what happened there? i think that particular phrase has _ what happened there? i think that particular phrase has caused - what happened there? i think that particular phrase has caused a - what happened there? i think that i particular phrase has caused a great deal of— particular phrase has caused a great deal of hurt — particular phrase has caused a great deal of hurt and concern. we are worried — deal of hurt and concern. we are worried about racism and anti—semitism none that islamophobe you and _ anti—semitism none that islamophobe you and things that happen over there _ you and things that happen over there spilling onto communities over here, _ there spilling onto communities over here we _ there spilling onto communities over here, we certainly don't need briefing — here, we certainly don't need briefing like that from anybody working — briefing like that from anybody working for the labour party. we�*ll working for the labour party. we'll see what happens _ working for the labour party. we'll see what happens over _ working for the labour party. -tt see what happens over the coming days and it will be interesting to see if the leadership has anything to say about this. nadine, there is unhappiness in the tory party about the home secretary's behaviour. do you think suella braverman should be sacked? �*, ., sacked? gosh, look, there's one overriding _ sacked? gosh, look, there's one overriding concern _ sacked? gosh, look, there's one overriding concern i _ sacked? gosh, look, there's one overriding concern i have - sacked? gosh, look, there's one overriding concern i have over i sacked? gosh, look, there's one. overriding concern i have over the reaction to suella braverman, i've already said i absolutely do not believe that her article, which is at the root of all this, went into the times newspaper and was not approved, i don't believe that, so thatis approved, i don't believe that, so that is part of the briefing machine that is part of the briefing machine that goes out. but what i've seen with suella and i saw it with priti patel and any woman who reaches high office is this backlash which has to be and is steeped in both misogyny and sexism. it's rife both in politics and i'm sad to say in the media too. i experienced itjust for writing a book, i write experienced it for being secretary of state. should she be sacked? no, she shouldn't. the person responsible is the prime minister, rishi sunak. he needs to own the problems that are taking place supposedly as a result of her article in the times, if number ten didn't take control of that and it points to a deeper problem in downing street and that's a weakness, they don't know what each other is doing, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and an absolute weakness in the prime minister's office and can't decide on a straight line that he's going to put out either over the protest or what's happening in gaza, he can't decide on a straight line. , ., , , , gaza, he can't decide on a straight line. , .,, , , line. there is no surprise you might sa that line. there is no surprise you might say that has — line. there is no surprise you might say that has one _ line. there is no surprise you might say that has one of _ line. there is no surprise you might say that has one of boris _ line. there is no surprise you might say that has one of boris johnson's| say that has one of borisjohnson's most ardent supporters and in your book, the plot, you make a significant list of claims about how borisjohnson was somehow undermined by people who had been out to get him from the very beginning. isn't itjust a case that he got caught out, he had a very tricky relationship with being able to tell the truth, he made lots of mistakes, and in the end mps and his party and thought you were doing more damage than gain, time to go? first thought you were doing more damage than gain, time to go?— than gain, time to go? first when ou sa than gain, time to go? first when you say we _ than gain, time to go? first when you say i've written _ than gain, time to go? first when you say i've written it, _ than gain, time to go? first when you say i've written it, it's - than gain, time to go? first when you say i've written it, it's not - you say i've written it, it's not me, so this book @ it’s you say i've written it, it's not me, so this book @ it's your book. it's m me, so this book @ it's your book. it's my book _ me, so this book @ it's your book. it's my book but _ me, so this book @ it's your book. it's my book but directly _ me, so this book @ it's your book. | it's my book but directly translated conversations with former prime ministers, home secretaries, chancellors, senior civil servants, it's not actually my take on the situation, is that of other people are saying it's a very good read was white shami has read it! thank you! i would say to anybody, read the book because it says in clear detail how we got to that situation of borisjohnson being removed, who the key players were, what they did and as shami just said, the briefings, who runs the media output, how do they make those stories run, how is public perception controlled, that's what it's about. kim public perception controlled, that's what it's about.— public perception controlled, that's what it's about. kim darroch, that's a buddy who _ what it's about. kim darroch, that's a buddy who is _ what it's about. kim darroch, that's a buddy who is to _ what it's about. kim darroch, that's a buddy who is to work _ what it's about. kim darroch, that's a buddy who is to work at _ what it's about. kim darroch, that's a buddy who is to work at the - a buddy who is to work at the highest levels of government as a civil servant, as an advisor, when you see this kind of thing play out, how damaging is it to the government's reputation? how much of a pain is it on your back when you arejust trying to a pain is it on your back when you are just trying to get things done? it's damaging, unquestioned bait, and if— it's damaging, unquestioned bait, and if you — it's damaging, unquestioned bait, and if you look— it's damaging, unquestioned bait, and if you look at _ it's damaging, unquestioned bait, and if you look at the _ it's damaging, unquestioned bait, and if you look at the combination of the _ and if you look at the combination of the book— and if you look at the combination of the book and _ and if you look at the combination of the book and i've _ and if you look at the combination of the book and i've read - and if you look at the combination of the book and i've read that - and if you look at the combination i of the book and i've read that media stuff and _ of the book and i've read that media stuff and the — of the book and i've read that media stuff and the stuff _ of the book and i've read that media stuff and the stuff that _ of the book and i've read that media stuff and the stuff that came - of the book and i've read that media stuff and the stuff that came out - of the book and i've read that media stuff and the stuff that came out ofl stuff and the stuff that came out of the govid _ stuff and the stuff that came out of the covid inquiry— stuff and the stuff that came out of the covid inquiry which _ stuff and the stuff that came out of the covid inquiry which made - stuff and the stuff that came out of the covid inquiry which made the i the covid inquiry which made the government— the covid inquiry which made the government look— the covid inquiry which made the government look like _ the covid inquiry which made the government look like a _ the covid inquiry which made the government look like a set - the covid inquiry which made the government look like a set of. the covid inquiry which made the government look like a set of in| the covid inquiry which made the i government look like a set of in the thick of— government look like a set of in the thick of it. — government look like a set of in the thick of it, that, — government look like a set of in the thick of it, that, |_ government look like a set of in the thick of it, that, i mean, _ government look like a set of in the thick of it, that, i mean, gets- thick of it, that, i mean, gets all the embassies— thick of it, that, i mean, gets all the embassies in— thick of it, that, i mean, gets all the embassies in london- thick of it, that, i mean, gets all the embassies in london pick. thick of it, that, i mean, gets all the embassies in london pick iti thick of it, that, i mean, gets all. the embassies in london pick it up, other— the embassies in london pick it up, other governments— the embassies in london pick it up, other governments know— the embassies in london pick it up, other governments know what's - the embassies in london pick it up, . other governments know what's going on, other governments know what's going on. it— other governments know what's going on. it makes— other governments know what's going on. it makes us— other governments know what's going on, it makes us look— other governments know what's going on, it makes us look shambolic- other governments know what's going on, it makes us look shambolic and l on, it makes us look shambolic and its damaging — on, it makes us look shambolic and its damaging so— on, it makes us look shambolic and its damaging so there's _ on, it makes us look shambolic and its damaging so there's no - on, it makes us look shambolic and j its damaging so there's no question that it _ its damaging so there's no question that it does — its damaging so there's no question that it does is — its damaging so there's no question that it does is harm. _ its damaging so there's no question that it does is harm. 0k, _ its damaging so there's no question that it does is harm.— its damaging so there's no question that it does is harm. ok, thank you, we'll be that it does is harm. ok, thank you, well be back — that it does is harm. ok, thank you, we'll be back with _ that it does is harm. ok, thank you, we'll be back with you _ that it does is harm. ok, thank you, we'll be back with you towards - that it does is harm. ok, thank you, we'll be back with you towards the i we'll be back with you towards the end of the show. as we've heard, responding to events in the middle east is not easy for either of our big political parties. keir starmer lost a frontbencher this week, and a vote in the commons to demand a ceasefire could make things more awkward in the next week. yvette cooper wants suella braverman's job, to be labour's next home secretary, and she joins us from her constituency. good morning. sadiq khan, your colleague, the london mayor, has blame suella braverman directly for the clash is the protest yesterday. is he right? the clash is the protest yesterday. is be right?— is he right? well, remembrance should have _ is he right? well, remembrance should have been _ is he right? well, remembrance should have been a _ is he right? well, remembrance should have been a weekend . is he right? well, remembrancej should have been a weekend for everyone to come together and we did see some appalling scenes in the capital yesterday including the far right thuggish violent behaviour, attacks on police officers with people trying to get to the cenotaph, and also we saw some awful anti—semitic cases as well that are still being investigated by the police. i think we should thank the police. i think we should thank the police for the work they did to make sure that armistice wasn't disrupted. that was what they said they would do. what is undoubtedly they would do. what is undoubtedly the case, the home secretary made the case, the home secretary made the job of the police the case, the home secretary made thejob of the police harder this weekend. she inflamed tensions. she also attacked the police, undermined respect for the police, at a really important time. that was highly irresponsible. it'sjust not important time. that was highly irresponsible. it's just not the way any home secretary would do thatjob other than suella braverman and rishi sunak is being so weak that he is allowing her to do that. it's very damaging. is allowing her to do that. it's very damaging-— is allowing her to do that. it's very damaging. is allowing her to do that. it's ve damatain. ,, ., , , very damaging. should she be sacked then? she shouldn't _ very damaging. should she be sacked then? she shouldn't carry _ very damaging. should she be sacked then? she shouldn't carry on - very damaging. should she be sacked then? she shouldn't carry on in - very damaging. should she be sacked then? she shouldn't carry on in this i then? she shouldn't carry on in this 'ob. then? she shouldn't carry on in this job- clearly — then? she shouldn't carry on in this job- clearly he _ then? she shouldn't carry on in this job. clearly he needs _ then? she shouldn't carry on in this job. clearly he needs to _ then? she shouldn't carry on in this job. clearly he needs to take - then? she shouldn't carry on in this job. clearly he needs to take action j job. clearly he needs to take action to do this. he needs to remove her. but to be honest he also should not have appointed her to this job in the first place, because recall that she was appointed five days after being sacked by liz truss for breaking the ministerial code and i think it's also the fact that we've had this effectively support for her position of undermining the police at such an important time, casting doubts on their impartiality, casting doubts on their operational independence rather than working with them, you really need the home secretary to have credibility and authority on working with the police, on helping make sure that communities are cohesive and calm. she doesn't have the authority or credibility to do that.— credibility to do that. there is an interesting _ credibility to do that. there is an interesting broader _ credibility to do that. there is an interesting broader principle - credibility to do that. there is an i interesting broader principle behind this. you aspire to be the next home secretary, if there is to be a labour government. hope secretaries have responsibility for policing and surely the police can't act with complete impunity. doesn't the home secretary actually have a role from time to time to call them out, if they believe they are going wrong? you are right that there has to be a framework for accountability, and there are processes to do that, and certainly when policing events happen, there will be questions asked afterwards about what should have happened. there is also a responsibility on the home office to make sure that proper standards are in place for policing, proper procedures and approaches are in place, but the operational independence is a really deep rooted part of the british policing tradition stop it goes back very many generations. it is tradition stop it goes back very many generations.— many generations. it is an interesting _ many generations. it is an interesting example, - many generations. it is an i interesting example, yvette many generations. it is an _ interesting example, yvette cooper, when the sad case of nikola bull came up in lancashire, i'm sure viewers remember that, you spoke about the lease decision to release significant information and expressed concern about that. —— nicola bulley. that was an operational decision and in that moment, you felt it was the right thing to be critical of the police. and it is right to ask questions about operational decisions that the police have made, but that is not what the home secretary was doing, and bear in mind, she is the home secretary, so has the responsibility thatis secretary, so has the responsibility that is different from other members of parliament and so on, the responsibility to work closely with them. and what she was doing was casting doubts, this blanket attack on their impartiality, their ability to do thejob. we know on their impartiality, their ability to do the job. we know the police operate without fear or favour. there will be all kinds of individual decisions that many of us may disagree with. there are also proper complaints processes in place around individual decisions as well. but this blanket attack on the impartiality of the police in the run—up to a very difficult weekend, and also the decision to inflame to deliberately escalate them and increase the temperature, also in the run—up to remembrance weekend, when the home secretary should have been playing a role to communities together, calm tensions, and call for respect for remembrance and the armistice, in fact what she did was just highly irresponsible. there is a reason that no other home secretary would ever do that and has ever done that, and the events we saw yesterday are that reason. there are lots of fraught conversations across politics at the moment, and some of those are also happening in the labour party. many in your party want keir starmer to be saying there should be a ceasefire in the middle east, and we have heard in the last few minutes, yvette cooper, the labour peer chamois chakra party suggest that some of the anonymous briefings from the leader's office bordered on being racist. —— shami chakrabarti. in case you didn't hear, she was saying that resignations over the ceasefire were just "shaking off the fleas". do you think that briefing was racist and offensive? mr; racist and offensive? my understanding _ racist and offensive? is’i’y' understanding is that racist and offensive? my understanding is that did not come from anybody anywhere near the labour leadership, and the party has made that abundantly clear, and i understand that has been recognised and accepted. obviously, it is a disgraceful thing to say, and that is why nobody in the labour leadership would have said it. so we should not perpetuate the misinformation about this. it is clearly disgraceful, but my understanding is, it has nothing to do with the labour leadership. ltitfheh do with the labour leadership. when it comes to the _ do with the labour leadership. when it comes to the vote _ do with the labour leadership. when it comes to the vote in _ do with the labour leadership. when it comes to the vote in the _ do with the labour leadership. when it comes to the vote in the next few daysin it comes to the vote in the next few days in the house of commons, will labour mps, days in the house of commons, will labourmps, labour days in the house of commons, will labour mps, labour shadow ministers, want to vote for a ceasefire, be disciplined if they vote against the leadership of�*s position? —— the leadership's position. i think you're talking about the possible debate that might take place around the king's speech. i think there are around 15 amendments already put down around the king's speech, there may be more, and we don't know yet which amendments the speaker will select or what the next steps will be. there is always then a process in which the labour party and whips set out the response at that point. but and whips set out the response at that oint. �* , ., , and whips set out the response at that oint. �* , ,, , ., that point. but there is likely to be a ceasefire _ that point. but there is likely to be a ceasefire called... - be a ceasefire called... you are raising a broader issue, so let me address it. instill you are raising a broader issue, so let me address it.— let me address it. will they be sacked if they _ let me address it. will they be sacked if they call _ let me address it. will they be sacked if they call for - let me address it. will they be sacked if they call for a - let me address it. will they be - sacked if they call for a ceasefire? let me address the broader issue, because i cannot pre—empt the processes around the speaker selecting amendments and the way the party responds to amendments set out, and the different ones set out. but there is a wider issue here, which is the devastating things happening in the middle east at the moment, and the real deep, deep concern and distress there is. we have seen 4000 palestinian children killed in gaza, hostages are still being held, there is obviously a humanitarian crisis at the moment, and i think everyone wants to see an end to the violence and proper measures to address the humanitarian crisis in place. you measures to address the humanitarian crisis in place-— crisis in place. you have talked about that _ crisis in place. you have talked about that this _ crisis in place. you have talked about that this morning, - crisis in place. you have talked about that this morning, but i l crisis in place. you have talked i about that this morning, but i am asking a specific question. if there is a vote on a ceasefire in the house of commons this week, will keir starmer sack frontbenchers who vote for a ceasefire, which is different to his own position? tbthd vote for a ceasefire, which is different to his own position? and i understand. _ different to his own position? and i understand, and _ different to his own position? and i understand, and you _ different to his own position? and i understand, and you asked - different to his own position? inc i understand, and you asked me that question, laura, and as i have said, i can't pre—empt the process we will go through with the selection of amendments that hasn't yet taken place by the speaker, and the labour party will then... tbs, place by the speaker, and the labour party will then. . .— party will then. .. a very elegant wa of party will then. .. a very elegant way of avoiding _ party will then. .. a very elegant way of avoiding the _ party will then. .. a very elegant way of avoiding the question! i party will then. .. a very elegant. way of avoiding the question! the way of avoiding the question! ti2 amendments that are selected. well, i am trying to address the wider issue. i can't answer the process question for you, but i can talk about the wider issue. keir starmer has obviously set up the labour party's position as part of the chatham house speech that he made. you will have also heard david lammy and lisa nandi calling for much stronger action, and lisa nandi calling for much strongeraction, including and lisa nandi calling for much stronger action, including civilian protection, because so many children's lives are being lost. —— nandy. we have seen some of the consequences can with the hospitals not having fuel. it is why we have called for some kind of immediate suspension of hostilities to get the humanitarian pause in place. there has been some progress, but the short pauses are just not enough, and we have got to have the space to make sure both that there can be the humanitarian aid and food and fuel, but also to have the civilian protection measures put in place as well, and space for negotiation around hostage releases well. we must leave it there, but thanks forjoining us this morning, not least because i know you have to — off to your local remembrance service in your constituency there in castleford. that's taking out of the scene of our national remembrance. —— lets take you out of the scene of our national remembrance. for more than 100 years, military veterans have beenjoined by members of the royal family, politicians and senior military figures at the cenotaph in whitehall. sophie raworth is there for us. good morning from the cenotaph, were almost 10,000 people are getting ready on horse guards parade to come out shortly and take their places in whitehall ahead of this morning's march past. old and young taking part, among them about a dozen world war ii veterans, the youngest now in their late 905. you can see some members of the public have been queueing since the early hours just to make sure they get their places here so that they too can pay their respects. i am joined here so that they too can pay their respects. iam joined now here so that they too can pay their respects. i am joined now by two sisters who served in the raf, who are taking part in the march past this morning. good morning michelle rozack and sue fisher. what does it mean to you to take part in the march past together? it is remembering people who have .one it is remembering people who have gone before us that made it possible for us _ gone before us that made it possible for us to— gone before us that made it possible for us to do— gone before us that made it possible for us to do the jobs we did in the air force — for us to do the jobs we did in the air force, and it is also the camaraderie we feel when we all meet up camaraderie we feel when we all meet up year— camaraderie we feel when we all meet up year on _ camaraderie we feel when we all meet up year on year, and the people that can't _ up year on year, and the people that can't march— up year on year, and the people that can't march because of disability or a-e can't march because of disability or age as— can't march because of disability or age as well— can't march because of disability or age as well as those who have gone before _ age as well as those who have gone before. ., ., , age as well as those who have gone before._ that's . before. you were a nurse. that's riaht, before. you were a nurse. that's right. yes- _ before. you were a nurse. that's right. yes- and _ before. you were a nurse. that's right, yes. and you _ before. you were a nurse. that's right, yes. and you were - before. you were a nurse. that's right, yes. and you were pretty i right, yes. and you were pretty pioneering. _ right, yes. and you were pretty pioneering, joining _ right, yes. and you were pretty pioneering, joining a _ right, yes. and you were pretty pioneering, joining a decade i right, yes. and you were pretty i pioneering, joining a decade later in 1990 as an aircraft engineer, and very few women were doing that? yes. very few women were doing that? yes, when i very few women were doing that? yes, when ljoined — very few women were doing that? yes, when ljoined up. _ very few women were doing that? yes, when ljoined up. l _ very few women were doing that? yes, when ijoined up, i could count the ladies _ when ijoined up, i could count the ladies going — when ijoined up, i could count the ladies going through, _ when ijoined up, i could count the ladies going through, doing - when ijoined up, i could count the ladies going through, doing their. ladies going through, doing their training — ladies going through, doing their training on— ladies going through, doing their training on one _ ladies going through, doing their training on one hand. _ ladies going through, doing their training on one hand. but - ladies going through, doing their training on one hand. but now. ladies going through, doing their training on one hand. but now it| ladies going through, doing their. training on one hand. but now it has opened _ training on one hand. but now it has opened up. — training on one hand. but now it has opened up. and _ training on one hand. but now it has opened up. and so— training on one hand. but now it has opened up, and so many— training on one hand. but now it has opened up, and so many young - training on one hand. but now it has. opened up, and so many young ladies are going _ opened up, and so many young ladies are going through. _ opened up, and so many young ladies are going through, and _ opened up, and so many young ladies are going through, and really- are going through, and really carrying _ are going through, and really carrying the _ are going through, and really carrying the banner- are going through, and really carrying the banner for- are going through, and really carrying the banner for equal| are going through, and really- carrying the banner for equaljobs, carrying the banner for equal jobs, equal— carrying the banner for equal jobs, equal pay— carrying the banner for equal jobs, equal pay and _ carrying the banner for equaljobs, equal pay and equal— carrying the banner for equaljobs, equal pay and equal opportunitiesl carrying the banner for equaljobs, i equal pay and equal opportunities in the air— equal pay and equal opportunities in the air force — the air force. what - the air force. what is - the air force. what is it- the air force. what is it like the air force. - what is it like when you the air force. _ what is it like when you take the air ioree — what is it like when you take part in the march pa55ed? you have both done it a few times now, haven't you? done it a few times now, haven't ou? . but done it a few times now, haven't you?- lzrut it _ done it a few times now, haven't you?- lzrut it is _ done it a few times now, haven't you?- lzrut it is a _ done it a few times now, haven't you? yes. but it is a really charged moment for— you? yes. but it is a really charged moment for people. you _ you? yes. but it is a really charged moment for people. you can - you? yes. but it is a really charged moment for people. you can feel. you? yes. but it is a really charged i moment for people. you can feel the emotion. everyone _ moment for people. you can feel the emotion. everyone stood _ moment for people. you can feel the emotion. everyone stood there - moment for people. you can feel the emotion. everyone stood there to . emotion. everyone stood there to attention, — emotion. everyone stood there to attention, we _ emotion. everyone stood there to attention, we march _ emotion. everyone stood there to attention, we march off, - emotion. everyone stood there to attention, we march off, and - emotion. everyone stood there to attention, we march off, and thel attention, we march off, and the swell— attention, we march off, and the swell of— attention, we march off, and the swell of pride _ attention, we march off, and the swell of pride you _ attention, we march off, and the swell of pride you feel— attention, we march off, and the swell of pride you feel from - attention, we march off, and the i swell of pride you feel from people as you _ swell of pride you feel from people as you are — swell of pride you feel from people as you are going _ swell of pride you feel from people as you are going down, _ swell of pride you feel from people as you are going down, it- swell of pride you feel from people as you are going down, it does- swell of pride you feel from people as you are going down, it does get| as you are going down, it does get to you _ as you are going down, it does get to you a — as you are going down, it does get to you a lot— as you are going down, it does get to you a lot of— as you are going down, it does get to you. a lot of the _ as you are going down, it does get to you. a lot of the ladies - as you are going down, it does get to you. a lot of the ladies you - as you are going down, it does get to you. a lot of the ladies you will| to you. a lot of the ladies you will see will— to you. a lot of the ladies you will see will have _ to you. a lot of the ladies you will see will have a _ to you. a lot of the ladies you will see will have a tear— to you. a lot of the ladies you will see will have a tear in _ to you. a lot of the ladies you will see will have a tear in their- to you. a lot of the ladies you will see will have a tear in their eye, i see will have a tear in their eye, that— see will have a tear in their eye, that can — see will have a tear in their eye, that can pass— see will have a tear in their eye, that can pass the _ see will have a tear in their eye, that can pass the cenotaph, - see will have a tear in their eye, that can pass the cenotaph, and see will have a tear in their eye, i that can pass the cenotaph, and it isjust_ that can pass the cenotaph, and it isjust so— that can pass the cenotaph, and it isjust so important— that can pass the cenotaph, and it is just so important to _ that can pass the cenotaph, and it isjust so important to be - that can pass the cenotaph, and it isjust so important to be here - that can pass the cenotaph, and it isjust so important to be here toi isjust so important to be here to remember— isjust so important to be here to remember everybody— isjust so important to be here to remember everybody who- isjust so important to be here to remember everybody who has i isjust so important to be here to i remember everybody who has been before _ remember everybody who has been before it _ remember everybody who has been before. . remember everybody who has been before. , ., ., . ., before. it is also about connection, isn't it? a — before. it is also about connection, isn't it? a lot _ before. it is also about connection, isn't it? a lot of— before. it is also about connection, isn't it? a lot of veterans _ before. it is also about connection, isn't it? a lot of veterans have - isn't it? a lot of veterans have said to me, this is the one moment i canju5t be with said to me, this is the one moment i can just be with people i am completely open way. it is like minded, completely open way. it is like minded. a _ completely open way. it is like minded, a different _ completely open way. it is like minded, a different sense - completely open way. it is like minded, a different sense of. completely open way. it is like - minded, a different sense of humour that we _ minded, a different sense of humour that we have, and it is great. you meet _ that we have, and it is great. you meet new— that we have, and it is great. you meet new people, people you have not seen for— meet new people, people you have not seen for decades, not just years. meet new people, people you have not seen for decades, notjust years. in our case _ seen for decades, notjust years. in our case it— seen for decades, notjust years. in our case it is— seen for decades, notjust years. in our case, it is decades we have not reconnected! but you meet them and it is as _ reconnected! but you meet them and it is as if— reconnected! but you meet them and it is as if you — reconnected! but you meet them and it is as if you only said goodbye to them _ it is as if you only said goodbye to them last— it is as if you only said goodbye to them last week. it is fantastic. and hu . e them last week. it is fantastic. and huge support _ them last week. it is fantastic. sinc huge support from the crowds, growing now in whitehall. we will let you get ready, but thank you very much forjoining u5 let you get ready, but thank you very much forjoining us this morning. very much for “oining us this morning.— morning. thank you. more of— morning. thank you. more of that - morning. thank you. more of that later . morning. thank you. more of that later on morning. thank you. - more of that later on bbc one. now, we have talked so much on this programme about the dangers and excitements of the world of online. the government finally has brought in a huge new law trying to put safety at the top of the list. the job's been given to ofcom, the watchdog that for years has looked after what's on our screens. that was the chart, that was top of the pops. ofcom'5 been checking what's on the box since the early noughtie5. it was the last number one of 2002. theirjob since has been keeping an eye on this lot. no, no, no, no. see you later, sorry, can't do this. and looking into complaints about when and where politicians pop up on screen. so, why did you do it? why did i do it? yeah, why are you here? but now the regulator has got to take on the wild west of the internet too. good luck with that. the man leading the charge as chair of ofcom is michael grade, and he is here for the first time. welcome to you. one of the aims of this huge piece of legislation is to protect children from content that might not be illegal, but might be harmful. that is at the core of it. can you give us a sense of what that means? ., . can you give us a sense of what that means? ., , ., means? the legal but harmful sections of — means? the legal but harmful sections of the _ means? the legal but harmful sections of the bill _ means? the legal but harmful sections of the bill were - means? the legal but harmful. sections of the bill were removed during the parliamentary proce55. sections of the bill were removed during the parliamentary process. we are concentrating on reducing harm to children online, which is about strangers being able to contact them, about seeing stuff they should not be able to see, and so on. the big push is to reduce harm for children. and how on earth do you actually do that if stuff isn't straightforwardly against the law? well, we only deal with illegal harms. that is the core of the bill. ourjob is to make sure that the tech companies themselves, the platforms themselves, take absolute control, and have systems and processes in place to stop it, and they will be held to account for that. we can't possibly control and monitor all the content. we are talking thousands of bits of stuff going on here. we havejust got to reduce the harm. and i think parents and anybody with children wants to see that happen.— see that happen. there are some areas where _ see that happen. there are some areas where the _ see that happen. there are some areas where the law _ see that happen. there are some areas where the law is _ see that happen. there are some areas where the law is very - see that happen. there are some| areas where the law is very clear, but there are these grey areas, and you just said, you can't possibly get to everything. i would like to show you something that is seen online, that is hugely popular. this is a video of an online influencer whose name is myron gaines. it is aimed at men, but we know lots of young people are seeing it. let's have a look. if i arm you guys with the tools that you need so you can deal with these bleep women, i'm happy with that, because you know what, i'd rather be called a misogynist, i'd ratherthat, right, be called names, than one of you guys killing yourselves over some bleep. now, that is deeply offensive to many people. now, that is deeply offensive to many people-— now, that is deeply offensive to many people.- you - now, that is deeply offensive to l many people.- you were many people. horrible. you were makinr a many people. horrible. you were making a face. — many people. horrible. you were making a face, looking _ many people. horrible. you were making a face, looking at - many people. horrible. you were making a face, looking at that. i many people. horrible. you were i making a face, looking at that. the myron gaines tag on tiktok has over half a billion views. with the new powers you have, can you tell parents this morning that their kids will not see that, that it will not p0p up will not see that, that it will not pop up on their phones? i sincerely ho -e so. pop up on their phones? i sincerely hope so- it — pop up on their phones? i sincerely hope so. it will— pop up on their phones? i sincerely hope so. it will be _ pop up on their phones? i sincerely hope so. it will be for— pop up on their phones? i sincerely hope so. it will be for us _ pop up on their phones? i sincerely hope so. it will be for us to - pop up on their phones? i sincerely hope so. it will be for us to lead . hope so. it will be for us to lead an attack companies, for the tech companies themselves to take responsibility for stuff like that. children should not be seeing that. that is so grossly misogynistic and defensive, it should not be there. how will you stop it happening, though? how will you stop it happening, thou~h? how will you stop it happening, thourh? ,., , how will you stop it happening, thourh? , ., how will you stop it happening, thourh? , s, though? under the powers of the act, we have the — though? under the powers of the act, we have the powers _ though? under the powers of the act, we have the powers to _ though? under the powers of the act, we have the powers to go _ though? under the powers of the act, we have the powers to go into - though? under the powers of the act, we have the powers to go into these i we have the powers to go into these tech companies and examine their algorithms, how they are controlling the content. they have to take responsibility for this kind of stuff, and that is clearly unacceptable, and they will have to satisfy us and the law that they are taking steps to stop horrible stuff like this. ~ ., taking steps to stop horrible stuff like this. . ., ., taking steps to stop horrible stuff like this. . . ., .. ., , like this. what will that actually mean in practice? _ like this. what will that actually mean in practice? you - like this. what will that actually mean in practice? you are - like this. what will that actually. mean in practice? you are saying like this. what will that actually - mean in practice? you are saying the tech companies will have to satisfy you that they are doing enough to take it down, and if you are a parent of a kid who has been watching grown material on their phone, if you are the friend of someone who may be suffers from anorexia who has been looking at that content on their phone, what can you actually do as an individual citizen cue microphone up michael grade, phone ofcom? brute citizen cue microphone up michael grade, phone ofcom?— citizen cue microphone up michael grade, phone ofcom? we will make sure the tech _ grade, phone ofcom? we will make sure the tech companies _ grade, phone ofcom? we will make sure the tech companies have - grade, phone ofcom? we will make | sure the tech companies have proper procedures. we will make sure they understand the complaints coming in, so the complaints will go to the tech companies and they will have to satisfy us that their measures are effective and they are taking notice of the complaints. but effective and they are taking notice of the complaints.— of the complaints. but what will that mean _ of the complaints. but what will that mean in — of the complaints. but what will that mean in practice? - of the complaints. but what will that mean in practice? ensuringj of the complaints. but what will i that mean in practice? ensuring a complaints practice is effective. will there time limits on when they take things down? how do they satisfy you that they paying attention? satisfy you that they paying attention?— satisfy you that they paying attention? . ., ., , , satisfy you that they paying attention? . ., ., ,, , satisfy you that they paying attention? . ., s, , , , ., attention? what will happen is that, when there is _ attention? what will happen is that, when there is a _ attention? what will happen is that, when there is a horror, _ attention? what will happen is that, when there is a horror, we - attention? what will happen is that, when there is a horror, we will - attention? what will happen is that, when there is a horror, we will go i when there is a horror, we will go in, we will talk to them, we will see what they have done about it, how quickly was it brought to their attention, how quickly they acted, committed the act responsibly, or in line with what the act requires of them? it is pretty serious stuff. and the big tech companies are ready for this. , . ., , ., ., for this. they certainly are, and have hired _ for this. they certainly are, and have hired thousands _ for this. they certainly are, and have hired thousands of - for this. they certainly are, and have hired thousands of people | for this. they certainly are, and i have hired thousands of people to try to deal with these things. will you force them to change the algorithms, so the formulas that the site notjust what content is suggested to people, but also how often it is pushed and blasted at them? it is not always about the content but about the frequency with which stuff gets pushed at people. the act gives us the power to demand the background, the information, the codes, the algorithms, we'll be able to get in and see what they are doing but what we are trying to do is get them to take and what the act expects of them and what we expect of them is to take responsibility for the harm that they cause and thatis for the harm that they cause and that is caused on their platforms false what that is caused on their platforms false wha i ., that is caused on their platforms false whai ., ., , that is caused on their platforms false whai ., s, , ., ., that is caused on their platforms false what . ., , . . . ~' false what what does that mean, take responsibility — false what what does that mean, take responsibility for _ false what what does that mean, take responsibility for the _ false what what does that mean, take responsibility for the harm _ false what what does that mean, take responsibility for the harm that's - responsibility for the harm that's caused? ., , ,, caused? through their risk assessments, _ caused? through their risk assessments, through - caused? through their risk assessments, through the | caused? through their risk - assessments, through the codes we will introduce, statutory codes, through all the mechanisms that are in the act that enable us to hold them to account. [30 in the act that enable us to hold them to account.— them to account. do you think --eole, them to account. do you think people, particularly _ them to account. do you think people, particularly young - them to account. do you think- people, particularly young people, get addicted to social media platforms? i get addicted to social media platforms?— get addicted to social media -latforms? .. . ., platforms? i think there is an addictive quality, _ platforms? i think there is an addictive quality, yes, - platforms? i think there is an - addictive quality, yes, definitely. we are all, there are people watching this programme now, who are also texting or whatsapp or whatever they are doing, that's an inevitable part of the internet but there are huge values in the internet as well, we mustn't lose sight of that. people have been concerned as well with hate speech online and hateful images, particularly with what's going on in the middle east. that is illeral, going on in the middle east. that is illegal. they — going on in the middle east. that is illegal, they won't _ going on in the middle east. that is illegal, they won't be _ going on in the middle east. that is illegal, they won't be allowed - going on in the middle east. that is illegal, they won't be allowed to . going on in the middle east. that is illegal, they won't be allowed to doj illegal, they won't be allowed to do that any more. do illegal, they won't be allowed to do that any more-— illegal, they won't be allowed to do that any more. do you anticipate you will crack on — that any more. do you anticipate you will crack on platforms _ that any more. do you anticipate you will crack on platforms like _ that any more. do you anticipate you will crack on platforms like x, - will crack on platforms like x, formerly known as twitter, for hosting that material? ii formerly known as twitter, for hosting that material?- formerly known as twitter, for hosting that material? if they host that they will _ hosting that material? if they host that they will be _ hosting that material? if they host that they will be in _ hosting that material? if they host that they will be in trouble, - hosting that material? if they host that they will be in trouble, yes. i that they will be in trouble, yes. do you have concerns about how elon musk has run x since he took over? i don't have a view about elon musk. you don't have a view about elon musk? �* ., �* musk? i've never met him, i don't have a view _ musk? i've never met him, i don't have a view about _ musk? i've never met him, i don't have a view about him. _ musk? i've never met him, i don't have a view about him. they - musk? i've never met him, i don't have a view about him. they will l have a view about him. they will have a view about him. they will have to abide by the regulations that are in place and that have been voted on by parliament. isn’t that are in place and that have been voted on by parliament.— voted on by parliament. isn't this a bit like david _ voted on by parliament. isn't this a bit like david and _ voted on by parliament. isn't this a bit like david and goliath, - voted on by parliament. isn't this a bit like david and goliath, you've . bit like david and goliath, you've got these new powers, you've hired 350 people to work on this, but we know big platforms like mehta, x, have thousands and thousands of people working robe working for them, many fought against this legislation tooth and nail. are you confident you will be able to make a difference? , , , i, i, difference? yes, because we are not the only country _ difference? yes, because we are not the only country regulating. - difference? yes, because we are not the only country regulating. we've . the only country regulating. we've got this issue with the european commission, with brussels, with australia, more and more countries are waking up to the fact that the days of the free for all are over, but in the end these platforms have a reputation to maintain. without that reputation advertisers are not going to want their brands on their platforms so there is a lot for them to lose if they don't behave themselves.— to lose if they don't behave themselves. ., , i, themselves. you say the days of the free for all on _ themselves. you say the days of the free for all on the _ themselves. you say the days of the free for all on the internet _ themselves. you say the days of the free for all on the internet are - free for all on the internet are over. some people think on tv, particularly news, there is more of a free for all that there needs to be. i, , a free for all that there needs to be. ., , ., ., a free for all that there needs to be. i, h, i, ,, a free for all that there needs to be. a, , a, a, ,, ru a free for all that there needs to be, ., , ., ., ,, ”i i'll take be. that is a neat segway. i'll take that as a compliment _ be. that is a neat segway. i'll take that as a compliment perhaps, - that as a compliment perhaps, there's been an exciting proliferation of news providers in this country, there is one particular channel, gb news, that many politicians are concerned about. other politicians are taking money from to present shows, there are four active conservative politicians hosting shows on gb news and borisjohnson is soonjoining their ranks. you don't have to be a brain of britain to work out that channel has a clear political leaning. is that fair?- channel has a clear political leaning. is that fair? they have to abide by the _ leaning. is that fair? they have to abide by the rules _ leaning. is that fair? they have to abide by the rules of— leaning. is that fair? they have to abide by the rules of impartiality, | abide by the rules of impartiality, due impartiality, fairness, accuracy and so on, as do i think we regulate all we licensed something like 2000 broadcasters. the rules for gb news are the same as they are for this programme, for the bbc, for everybody. programme, for the bbc, for everybody-— programme, for the bbc, for eve bod. �* , i, , everybody. but the question is whether the _ everybody. but the question is whether the rules _ everybody. but the question is whether the rules still - everybody. but the question is whether the rules still apply. l everybody. but the question is - whether the rules still apply. we've iot whether the rules still apply. we've got investigations _ whether the rules still apply. we've got investigations going _ whether the rules still apply. we've got investigations going on - got investigations going on following complaints about gb news, i have to be careful not to prejudice the outcome. there is a iuestion prejudice the outcome. there is a question of _ prejudice the outcome. there is a question of principle, _ prejudice the outcome. there is a question of principle, you - prejudice the outcome. there is a question of principle, you say - prejudice the outcome. there is a question of principle, you say the j question of principle, you say the ofcom rules are the same across the industry but the industry has changed so much that some people think hang on a minute, organisations like gb news are running rings around the regulator. i wouldn't recognise the phrase running rings, they've been a breach about four times so far. fire running rings, they've been a breach about four times so far.— about four times so far. are you concerned _ about four times so far. are you concerned in — about four times so far. are you concerned in a _ about four times so far. are you concerned in a generic- about four times so far. are you concerned in a generic sense, . about four times so far. are you i concerned in a generic sense, not just as someone who is at ofcom but is one of the most successful long—time tv executives, do you have worries about an increasing level of polarisation and commentary? i worries about an increasing level of polarisation and commentary? i have worries about — polarisation and commentary? i have worries about freedom _ polarisation and commentary? i have worries about freedom of _ polarisation and commentary? i have worries about freedom of speech - polarisation and commentary? i we worries about freedom of speech and freedom of expression on the airwaves but that's what concerns ofcom. we have to balance complaints against freedom of speech. freedom of speech means say what you like within the law, and on licensed broadcasters that means saying what you want within the rules that ofcom has to uphold. d0 you want within the rules that ofcom has to uphold-— has to uphold. do you really think with such a _ has to uphold. do you really think with such a changed _ has to uphold. do you really think with such a changed landscape, i has to uphold. do you really think. with such a changed landscape, for good or ill, that having the same rules that have been in place for such a long time is the right approach? i such a long time is the right approach?— such a long time is the right a- roach? ~' , i, approach? i think the rules have studies in very _ approach? i think the rules have studies in very good _ approach? i think the rules have studies in very good stead. - approach? i think the rules havej studies in very good stead. they have increased the range of choice in news outlets and current affairs. gb news calls itself gb news but it's more of a current affairs. they are a political chat shows that go on bbc news which is a kind of new format. we want to see a plurality of choice and freedom of expression on the airways, we don't want to be in the business of telling broadcasters, licensees, who they can employ, who they can't employ. there are rules about elections that politicians at election time, strong, clear rules but that's not ourjob, ourjob is to ensure within the rules, within the rules of due impartiality, there is plenty of choice and freedom of expression on the airwaves. that means some people will always be offended by stuff, but there is no rule that says you can't be offended but i absolutely not, michael grade, thank you for coming in this morning. we love political chat, we can never get enough of it here. let's whiz back to nine o'clock and our big question this morning. after stirring political controversy over the protests, we asked if suella braverman's comments made divisions worse. i think there have been concerned sometimes that people have felt at liberty, let me finish this one thought if i may, at liberty perhaps because they haven't seen swift enough action to carry on going out carrying these banners, singing these chants and breaking laws which were in place to prevent racial hatred. a, were in place to prevent racial hatred. ., , , i, i, hatred. nadine dorries, you wear the cabinet minister _ hatred. nadine dorries, you wear the cabinet minister who _ hatred. nadine dorries, you wear the cabinet minister who was _ hatred. nadine dorries, you wear the cabinet minister who was at - hatred. nadine dorries, you wear the cabinet minister who was at the - cabinet minister who was at the beginning of the online safety bill we were talking about with michael grade, are you happy with where it's ended up? his. grade, are you happy with where it's ended u - ? i, �* grade, are you happy with where it's ended u? i, �* i, i, i, ended up? no, i'm not, and the video ou ended up? no, i'm not, and the video you showed — ended up? no, i'm not, and the video you showed at — ended up? no, i'm not, and the video you showed at the _ ended up? no, i'm not, and the video you showed at the beginning - ended up? no, i'm not, and the video you showed at the beginning of - ended up? no, i'm not, and the video you showed at the beginning of your. you showed at the beginning of your interview, the fundamental issue with that video was misogyny and i'm afraid misogyny is no longer covered in the bill. it's been watered down to the point where vulnerable adults, young, vulnerable adults and teenagers will be subjected to those very harmful algorithms that you spoke about which will direct them towards very harmful places in the internet, suicide chat rooms, eating disorder chat rooms, those very harms that we know are resulting in a rise in suicides among the 16—24 age group and the massive rise we've seenin age group and the massive rise we've seen in young girls with eating disorders. i'm afraid the bill, i want to say actually while i'm here, i did take the bill into a good place, there were people working on that like dame caroline dine edge before me against fierce opposition within the department, we did get it to a good place. it within the department, we did get it to a good place-— to a good place. it was a big and noisy debate. — to a good place. it was a big and noisy debate, we'll _ to a good place. it was a big and noisy debate, we'll come - to a good place. it was a big and noisy debate, we'll come back. to a good place. it was a big and| noisy debate, we'll come back to theseissues noisy debate, we'll come back to these issues in the months to come. we asked yvette cooper about the briefing from a senior labour source, labour has clarified that off the record quote did not come from the lead up is my office, but where you happy with what yvette cooper said about that? i’m where you happy with what yvette cooper said about that?— where you happy with what yvette cooper said about that? i'm glad she said, it cooper said about that? i'm glad she said. it was — cooper said about that? i'm glad she said. it was very _ cooper said about that? i'm glad she said, it was very clear, _ cooper said about that? i'm glad she said, it was very clear, it _ cooper said about that? i'm glad she said, it was very clear, it was - said, it was very clear, it was offensive _ said, it was very clear, it was offensive and condemned it, that's very important leadership from her as the _ very important leadership from her as the shadow home secretary. i meani _ as the shadow home secretary. i mean. the — as the shadow home secretary. i mean, the murky world of off the record _ mean, the murky world of off the record briefings, as i say, a dean wrote _ record briefings, as i say, a dean wrote a _ record briefings, as i say, a dean wrote a book about it and by the way after that _ wrote a book about it and by the way after that excellent interview with lord grade we need to remember nadine _ lord grade we need to remember nadine also exposed in her book that when she _ nadine also exposed in her book that when she recommended his appointment to the then _ when she recommended his appointment to the then prime minister boris johnson — to the then prime minister boris johnson shadowy forces, shadowy forces _ johnson shadowy forces, shadowy forces and — johnson shadowy forces, shadowy forces and sources actually tried to change _ forces and sources actually tried to change the — forces and sources actually tried to change the recommendation on the submission to the prime minister. | submission to the prime minister. i didn't submission to the prime minister. didn't think submission to the prime minister. i didn't think at the beginning of this morning we find so many common causes this week! mi this morning we find so many common causes this week!— causes this week! all these things are possible- _ causes this week! all these things are possible. across _ causes this week! all these things are possible. across the _ causes this week! all these things are possible. across the political. are possible. across the political divides. are possible. across the political divides- in _ are possible. across the political divides. in the _ are possible. across the political divides. in the end, _ are possible. across the political divides. in the end, your- are possible. across the political divides. in the end, your careerl are possible. across the political. divides. in the end, your career was a victim in some ways have a big leap. what do you think of this kind of stuff? i leap. what do you think of this kind of stuff? , , ., .. leap. what do you think of this kind of stuff? , , ., ,, ., leap. what do you think of this kind of stuff? ,, ., ,, ., . , leap. what do you think of this kind ofstuff? ,, ., . , , of stuff? i speak from chip very ieneral of stuff? i speak from chip very general knowledge _ of stuff? i speak from chip very general knowledge of - of stuff? i speak from chip very general knowledge of all - of stuff? i speak from chip very general knowledge of all this, | of stuff? i speak from chip very general knowledge of all this, i promise — general knowledge of all this, i promise you _ general knowledge of all this, i promise you but _ general knowledge of all this, i promise you but i _ general knowledge of all this, i promise you but i do _ general knowledge of all this, i promise you but i do think- general knowledge of all this, i promise you but i do think the| general knowledge of all this, i. promise you but i do think the big platforms — promise you but i do think the big platforms need _ promise you but i do think the big platforms need very— promise you but i do think the big platforms need very strong - platforms need very strong regulation, _ platforms need very strong regulation, very— platforms need very strong regulation, very tough - platforms need very strong - regulation, very tough regulation and from — regulation, very tough regulation and from what _ regulation, very tough regulation and from what nadine _ regulation, very tough regulation and from what nadine has- regulation, very tough regulation and from what nadine has said . regulation, very tough regulation and from what nadine has said ii and from what nadine has said i wonder— and from what nadine has said i wonder if— and from what nadine has said i wonder if this _ and from what nadine has said i wonder if this bill, _ and from what nadine has said i wonder if this bill, i— and from what nadine has said i wonder if this bill, i haven't- wonder if this bill, i haven't followed _ wonder if this bill, i haven't followed in _ wonder if this bill, i haven't followed in detail, - wonder if this bill, i haven't followed in detail, has- wonder if this bill, i haven't| followed in detail, has been wonder if this bill, i haven't- followed in detail, has been watered down too _ followed in detail, has been watered down too much _ followed in detail, has been watered down too much. i— followed in detail, has been watered down too much. ido— followed in detail, has been watered down too much. i do think _ followed in detail, has been watered down too much. i do think they- followed in detail, has been wateredl down too much. i do think they could afford _ down too much. i do think they could afford it. _ down too much. i do think they could afford it. they— down too much. i do think they could afford it, they are _ down too much. i do think they could afford it, they are making _ down too much. i do think they could afford it, they are making vast - down too much. i do think they could afford it, they are making vast sumsl afford it, they are making vast sums of money— afford it, they are making vast sums of money so — afford it, they are making vast sums of money so hiring _ afford it, they are making vast sums of money so hiring the _ afford it, they are making vast sums of money so hiring the people - afford it, they are making vast sums of money so hiring the people to - of money so hiring the people to police _ of money so hiring the people to police the — of money so hiring the people to police the internet _ of money so hiring the people to police the internet properly - of money so hiring the people to l police the internet properly seems to me _ police the internet properly seems to me a _ police the internet properly seems to me a thing _ police the internet properly seems to me a thing we _ police the internet properly seems to me a thing we can— police the internet properly seems to me a thing we can reasonably. police the internet properly seems i to me a thing we can reasonably ask of them _ to me a thing we can reasonably ask of them. ., to me a thing we can reasonably ask of them. . ., , ., . ~' of them. 0k, all three of you, thank ou ve of them. 0k, all three of you, thank you very much- _ of them. 0k, all three of you, thank you very much. we'll _ of them. 0k, all three of you, thank you very much. we'll see _ of them. 0k, all three of you, thank you very much. we'll see what - you very much. we'll see what happens in the coming days to suella braverman and look out for the judgment from the courts on wednesday when the government will be told whether or not flights to deport flights to rwanda can come true. by the time we meet again next sunday, there could be a new reshuffled cabinet, rishi sunak might have tried to grab back the initiative, send her packing, and soup up his line—up. or maybe the prime minister's natural caution will have prevailed and he might leave her in place. either way, the perhaps unnecessary political furore of the serious question of these protests has dented downing street's authority again. with the polls where they are, they can ill afford that. in a second here on bbc one, the live coverage of our service of national remembrance. later i'll be heading to the weekend edition of newscast, you can find it on bbc sounds. but you know, every now and then, on a special occasion, we like to bring you something that's just indescribably gorgeous, that goes beyond words. today, it's the turn of the musician vikingur olafsson, who has recently recorded bach's goldberg variations — you'll know them when you hear them — to huge acclaim. we asked him to play the beginning of that incredible work on this important day, just for you. it is beautiful. until next week, we wish you goodbye. music: goldberg variations byjs bach trying to move some of the endless patience from intensive care is very delicate process at the best of times but we got to remind ourselves that this hospital which is the biggest thing gaza is right on the front line of the fighting now. the al-shifa front line of the fighting now. he al—shifa hospital front line of the fighting now. iis: al—shifa hospital has front line of the fighting now. he al—shifa hospital has seen front line of the fighting now. iis: al—shifa hospital has seen fierce clashes between hamas and israel so what they're trying to do today it comes as prime minister rishi sunak condemned what he called violent, wholly unacceptable scenes by right—wing activist in central london yesterday as well as hamas sympathisers. he london yesterday as well as hamas sympathisers-— sympathisers. he added that the desicable sympathisers. he added that the despicable actions _ sympathisers. he added that the despicable actions of— sympathisers. he added that the despicable actions of a _ sympathisers. he added that the despicable actions of a minority l sympathisers. he added that the l despicable actions of a minority of people undermined those who had chosen to express their views peacefully. about 300,000 pro—palestinian protesters march to call for a ceasefire in demonstrations that coincided with armistice day. police have said that they counter protesters, right—wing activist, made up the vast majority of the 126. a somber, poignant day ahead. a day to remember all those who died in conflict. the cenotaph in london will be the focus of commemorations. from the war memorial, the king will lead the nation in a two minute silence at 11am. last night, the king and queen were at the royal albert hall. they attended the annual royal british legion's festival of remembrance. at the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we will remember them. last post plays. yesterday, the nation observed armistice day with a two minute silence on the 11th hour, on the 11th day of the 11th month, marking the end of the first world war. big ben strikes the hour.

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