martin reynolds from february 2020 and dominic cummings saying lots of science containment has failed and we should now expect a proper pandemic and even to have an update from the prime minister. if we go over the page we see martin reynolds saying we have scheduled ministerial meeting on heathrow first thing so cannot have a meeting tomorrow but will look to fix it later and then says perhaps we could cover it at cabinet or at the end of the national security council. and then if you skip down a couple of entries, later that morning we see martin reynolds perhaps by that stage has spoken to the cabinet secretary seen marc would prefer to do it at cabinet and makes a point cabinet would be better as it includes a wider cast with including health and so on and we see the response from dominic cummings seeing cabinet leaks and if it leaks out it will be from some fool so that it out it will be from some fool so thatitis out it will be from some fool so that it is a bad idea. the problem is the problem the mac opportunity to discuss a serious development and understand the science and have input from that wide variety of sources that cabinet provides is being vetoed in this case by dominic cummings on his view because cabinet leaks and it is not a suitable body to have these discussions. it is to have these discussions. it is undoubtedly — to have these discussions. it is undoubtedly the _ to have these discussions. it is undoubtedly the case that meant we did not_ undoubtedly the case that meant we did not get the briefing we ought to have done — did not get the briefing we ought to have done and also that things leapt from cabinet almost immediately. tab 39, 308 from cabinet almost immediately. 39, 308 305, from cabinet almost immediately. tea 39, 308 305, a rather from cabinet almost immediately. t5; 39, 308 305, a rather different situation but perhaps the same basic point. an e—mail you sent about the action plan in march which we talked about, this is the road map, the plan for coming out of lockdown in may 2020. you are sending an e—mail to martin reynolds having had a first look at the draft stop you have various criticisms and in the first paragraph one of the points you make, second line down, on a fundamental level i do not see how this can be the recovery strategy without any debate or advice about the policy or choices contained within it and without it being shared with government ministers. i think you see it simply wasn't shared amongst the cabinet in the course of drafting it. is that another example of this problem you describe? yes another example of this problem you describe? . . another example of this problem you describe? , ., .., , , _, , describe? yes and in case this comes across as process _ describe? yes and in case this comes across as process now _ describe? yes and in case this comes across as process now cling, -- - across as process now cling, —— nerdling, — across as process now cling, —— nerdling, i_ across as process now cling, —— nerdling, i don't know if it short—circuited our hot—wired, the ability— short—circuited our hot—wired, the ability for— short—circuited our hot—wired, the ability for someone to write something and it to become a published document for the government was so quick and there are two— government was so quick and there are two problems with that. firstly, government is a serious business and the boring _ government is a serious business and the boring work of going through all the boring work of going through all the things— the boring work of going through all the things on the one hand and on the things on the one hand and on the other— the things on the one hand and on the other is— the things on the one hand and on the other is important because it produces — the other is important because it produces better outcomes when something will happen in real life. also, _ something will happen in real life. also, as _ something will happen in real life. also, as important if not more importantly the accountability of people _ importantly the accountability of people for the decisions for this government and people who have been elected _ government and people who have been elected and _ government and people who have been elected and i appreciate it can feel a bit tedious to have to get them to agree _ a bit tedious to have to get them to agree lrut— a bit tedious to have to get them to agree but it — a bit tedious to have to get them to agree but it is not get them to agree — agree but it is not get them to agree and _ agree but it is not get them to agree and take it through, they are accountable and should take decisions on behalf of all those who elect them — decisions on behalf of all those who elect them and it is a fundamental poiht _ elect them and it is a fundamental point to— elect them and it is a fundamental point to the way our country is governed _ point to the way our country is governed so it matters. that point to the way our country is governed so it matters. that is a constitutional _ governed so it matters. that is a constitutional imperative. - governed so it matters. that is a constitutional imperative. you i governed so it matters. that is a l constitutional imperative. you also mentioned the process of cabinet government brings a qualitative difference and makes for a better decision. page 5a of your statement, paragraph 107 towards the bottom of that paragraph. coming back to that point about breadth of experience and the real world experience we were discussing in context of football matches. picking it up about eight lines from the bottom. sentence in the middle of that, whatever the personal experience of those in the room and it was a pretty privileged set of people should have been a way of advising on applications for the whole population in the way more normal civil service work would have allowed for and the full cabinet were better bringing this wider perspective, a bit more grounded in consequence is not as obvious and the complexities of the world as it is. the cabinet are not asked that opinion very often and not on decisions in flight i can recall. is that the point about the quality of decision—making that is lost the cabinet — decision—making that is lost the cabinet are bypassed? i think so and about— cabinet are bypassed? i think so and about the _ cabinet are bypassed? i think so and about the narrow perspective. we will about the narrow perspective. will come to about the narrow perspective. - will come to that. is it fair to say you had at similar reflection about the rather narrow covid group? i have to think more elected people involved _ have to think more elected people involved in— have to think more elected people involved in decision—making is better— involved in decision—making is better lezzerini one sooner rather -- much— better lezzerini one sooner rather -- much -- — better lezzerini one sooner rather -- much "— better lezzerini one sooner rather -- much -- , ., ., -- much -- lets move on. dated 22nd ma , -- much -- lets move on. dated 22nd may. 183934- — -- much -- lets move on. dated 22nd may. 183934. this— -- much -- lets move on. dated 22nd may, 183934. this is _ -- much -- lets move on. dated 22nd may, 183934. this is a _ -- much -- lets move on. dated 22nd may, 183934. this is a document, - -- much -- lets move on. dated 22nd may, 183934. this is a document, the j may, 183931i. this is a document, the reason for going too it is because of the proposals you make about relations with the devolved administrations. there are other points in the document that is why i am asking you to look at it. that is the front page the comments from the prime minister on the paper which i will not go to. if we can go to the next page we see the beginning of the note as it is and without looking at it we can remind ourselves this was in fact a document drafted by you and simon case. before he became cabinet secretary. case. before he became cabinet secreta . . . case. before he became cabinet secreta . , , ., , case. before he became cabinet secreta . , , , ., secretary. yes, this was “ust after he had been * secretary. yes, this was “ust after he had been appointed _ secretary. yes, this was just after| he had been appointed permanent secretary— he had been appointed permanent secretary of the covid task force. in summary is this fairthat secretary of the covid task force. in summary is this fai- secretary of the covid task force. in summary is this fair that this is the document _ in summary is this fair that this is the document which _ in summary is this fair that this is the document which is _ in summary is this fair that this is the document which is part - in summary is this fair that this is the document which is part of - in summary is this fair that this is the document which is part of the process upon which the arrangements in number ten and downing st were rearranged and in particular the mix were put to one side and replaced by covid two 0 and s? the question of how devolved administrations would be bound into this new process and we can see it in the summary of the document bold passage, t3 lines up the document bold passage, t3 lines up from the bottom, there is a proposal we use the usualjoint managerial decisions managed the dms. there is a further paragraph in the body of document which gives us more detail on this issue, autographed six on the next page. —— paragraph. you make the point that so far the devolved administrations have been involved first of all by attending cobra and being represented on the migs end you say there needs to be a mechanism to discuss and agree on a four nation approach and you could convene a joint ministerial committee when needed instead. cobra we'll stop meeting on covid unless we which are crisis situation and then you refer to the city mayors. mrjohnson made it clear in his statement, he says he agreed with this proposal. what did you have in mind when you said thatjoint ministerial committees could be convened in the normal way? was this something that was going to happen weekly or monthly? i think ou're happen weekly or monthly? i think you're right _ happen weekly or monthly? i think you're right that _ happen weekly or monthly? i think you're right that manage _ happen weekly or monthly? i think you're right that manage is - happen weekly or monthly? i think you're right that manage is an - you're right that manage is an uncomfortable world to see in summary— uncomfortable world to see in summary and manage conversations in the actual— summary and manage conversations in the actual draft is a better way of putting _ the actual draft is a better way of putting it — the actual draft is a better way of putting it. iwas the actual draft is a better way of putting it. i was not closely involved _ putting it. i was not closely involved at this point in having conversations with how the conversations with how the conversations with how the conversations with devolved administrations were going. i had conversations with the cdl's team about _ conversations with the cdl's team about this — conversations with the cdl's team about this and what he would be asked _ about this and what he would be asked to — about this and what he would be asked to do and my understanding was it was— asked to do and my understanding was it was important there were formal structures— it was important there were formal structures whereby these conversations can carry on if we were _ conversations can carry on if we were for— conversations can carry on if we were for these purposes not having devolved _ were for these purposes not having devolved administrations involved in replacement cabinet committees because — replacement cabinet committees because that would be odd. it is not the way— because that would be odd. it is not the way cabinet committees work stop then it _ the way cabinet committees work stop then it is _ the way cabinet committees work stop then it is very important to have a mechanism — then it is very important to have a mechanism for those conversations to continue _ mechanism for those conversations to continue in _ mechanism for those conversations to continue in the normal way of things so i continue in the normal way of things so i am _ continue in the normal way of things so i am more — continue in the normal way of things so i am more familiar with the way the jmc_ so i am more familiar with the way the jmc run— so i am more familiar with the way the jmc run but that would have been my expectation and my assumption would _ my expectation and my assumption would be _ my expectation and my assumption would be that would be for the cdl to do— would be that would be for the cdl to do mostly but i would also expect prime _ to do mostly but i would also expect prime minister and first ministers would _ prime minister and first ministers would find — prime minister and first ministers would find ways to speak to each other~ _ would find ways to speak to each other. ~ ., ,, ., would find ways to speak to each other. ~ ., ,. ., , ., , would find ways to speak to each other. . ., ~' ., , ., , , other. what we know in summary is that first of — other. what we know in summary is that first of all — other. what we know in summary is that first of all there _ other. what we know in summary is that first of all there were _ other. what we know in summary is that first of all there were never - that first of all there were never anyjmcs that had the purpose dealing with covid and there were regular calls between michael gove and the devolved leaders but during that period the leaders of the devolved administrations repeatedly said that was not adequate and they were essentiallyjust being, these calls just being used to tell them what was happening rather than as a means to usual phase of using a four nations approach to discuss what should happen the repeatedly called forjmcs which never transpired. in the witness statement from mr johnson, top 35 in your bundle, page 45, 188, johnson, top 35 in your bundle, page a5, 188, document2 55836. this is the passage in his statement which has been subject to some consideration of the inquiry. this is a response by mrjohnson to the suggestion that should have been jmcs during the pandemic. he says it is optically wrong in the first place for the uk by minister to hold regular meetings with the other first ministers as if the uk were a mini eu of four nations and we were meeting as a council and a federal structure. that is not in my view devolution is meant to work. do you see any tension between your proposal on the document we were looking at, your expectation and that statement by mrjohnson? yes. i don't think i — that statement by mrjohnson? yes. i don't think i was _ that statement by mrjohnson? yes. i don't think i was aware _ that statement by mrjohnson? yes. i don't think i was aware in _ that statement by mrjohnson? yes. i don't think i was aware in making - don't think i was aware in making that proposal, and i said hesitantly because _ that proposal, and i said hesitantly because they don't have much memory about why— because they don't have much memory about why this was here, if you do not engage — about why this was here, if you do not engage with the devolved administrations in that way he missed — administrations in that way he missed the cage in this way and that probably wasn't thinking much more sophisticated way than that. i didn't— sophisticated way than that. i didn't know that with the view of mr johnson towards the governing structures of the united kingdom and i structures of the united kingdom and i also _ structures of the united kingdom and i also knew— structures of the united kingdom and i also knew that the personal politics — i also knew that the personal politics between him and the first minister— politics between him and the first minister in scotland and the wait was played back to me, i never saw it first _ was played back to me, i never saw it first hand. — was played back to me, i never saw it first hand, was such that that had been — it first hand, was such that that had been a _ it first hand, was such that that had been a thing people talked about as being _ had been a thing people talked about as being difficult in the first phase — as being difficult in the first phase so i suspect this was the way of trying _ phase so i suspect this was the way of trying to— phase so i suspect this was the way of trying to go back into a more normal— of trying to go back into a more normal pattern and i don't think it would _ normal pattern and i don't think it would have — normal pattern and i don't think it would have got that would not be any jmcs after _ would have got that would not be any jmcs after that. would have got that would not be any jmcs after that-— jmcs after that. whatever you call the meetings. _ jmcs after that. whatever you call the meetings, were _ jmcs after that. whatever you call the meetings, were you _ jmcs after that. whatever you call j the meetings, were you expecting jmcs after that. whatever you call l the meetings, were you expecting a substantial process of discussion and consultation to take place across the four nations looking forward? i across the four nations looking forward? . . across the four nations looking forward? , . . forward? i was expecting close workin: , forward? i was expecting close working. that _ forward? i was expecting close working, that would _ forward? i was expecting close working, that would have - forward? i was expecting close working, that would have been forward? i was expecting close - working, that would have been my expectation, not only at ministerial level~ _ expectation, not only at ministerial level~ i_ expectation, not only at ministerial level. i know the respective cmos of the four— level. i know the respective cmos of the four nations met regularly and i would _ the four nations met regularly and i would expect close working while respecting the devolution settlement is to continue. respecting the devolution settlement is to continue-— is to continue. another short topic, the health secretary, _ is to continue. another short topic, the health secretary, mr— is to continue. another short topic, the health secretary, mr hancock. | the health secretary, mr hancock. would it be fair to say he was one of those people who you worked with very closely —— fairly closely during the period of the pandemic? i would have seen them enough formal meetings _ would have seen them enough formal meetings very regularly but as a member— meetings very regularly but as a member of the cabinet or the committees. the he worked in the cabinet _ committees. the he worked in the cabinet office and department of health _ cabinet office and department of health so there was clearly some distance — health so there was clearly some distance there equally he was very involved _ distance there equally he was very involved in— distance there equally he was very involved in the response the pandemic sign up i was probably in a meeting _ pandemic sign up i was probably in a meeting with him once a day at various— meeting with him once a day at various points stop, i want to take you to _ various points stop, i want to take you to two — various points stop, i want to take you to two or three passages in your witness _ you to two or three passages in your witness statement. first you to two or three passages in your witness statement.— witness statement. first of all page 20 stop the — witness statement. first of all page 20 stop the paragraph _ witness statement. first of all page 20 stop the paragraph at _ witness statement. first of all page 20 stop the paragraph at the - witness statement. first of all page 20 stop the paragraph at the top i 20 stop the paragraph at the top stop we went to it earlier this morning to remind ourselves. you explained that one of the reasons you are confident the plans for the pandemic insisted was simply because mr hancock time and time again in your words, mr hancock time and time again in yourwords, and as mr hancock time and time again in your words, and as you have explained this morning without any ambiguity should the cabinet they were there would be fair to say you were there would be fair to say you were surprised you were surprised you were surprised when you let mac realised what he had said was not actually true? i realised what he had said was not actually true?— realised what he had said was not actually true? i was surprised, yes. let me ask — actually true? i was surprised, yes. let me ask you _ actually true? i was surprised, yes. let me ask you about _ actually true? i was surprised, yes. let me ask you about another - let me ask you about another passage. _ let me ask you about another passage. page _ let me ask you about another passage. page 58- _ let me ask you about another passage, page 58. at - let me ask you about another passage, page 58. at the - let me ask you about another| passage, page 58. at the very let me ask you about another - passage, page 58. at the very bottom of that page, paragraph 117, you see through april it became obvious that the confidence number ten had in the machinery in the cabinet office was in sharp decline. there were also increasing questions about the performance of dhsc an a lack of confidence in that what the health secretary said the sapling was actually happening. the usual systems of governance in whitehall rely on people being truthful. the sense of this part of your statement seems to be people working in government at the time did not trust mr hancock and did not believe what he was telling them it was true. is that a view you had? it is definitely _ that a view you had? it is definitely the _ that a view you had? it is definitely the view - that a view you had? it is definitely the view in government and i_ definitely the view in government and i think— definitely the view in government and i think it is fair to say it is what — and i think it is fair to say it is what we — and i think it is fair to say it is what we experienced, so what was said in— what we experienced, so what was said in a _ what we experienced, so what was said in a meeting is actually being under— said in a meeting is actually being under control are going to be delivered _ under control are going to be delivered or something that was fine, _ delivered or something that was fine, subsequently a matter of days, sometimes _ fine, subsequently a matter of days, sometimes weeks later, we would discover— sometimes weeks later, we would discover that was not in fact the case: _ discover that was not in fact the case, so — discover that was not in fact the case, so i — discover that was not in fact the case, so i think it is quite hard to say absolutely it wasn't the situation, i don't recall the situation _ situation, i don't recall the situation we are black with white top but — situation we are black with white top but definitely a pattern of being — top but definitely a pattern of being reassured that something was absolutely fine and it discovering was very— absolutely fine and it discovering was very far from fine. that again is sort _ was very far from fine. that again is sort of— was very far from fine. that again is sort of unusual insight whitehall and a _ is sort of unusual insight whitehall and a cabinet committee cabinet government situation, you don't usually— government situation, you don't usually get that, you don't usually .et usually get that, you don't usually get everything is ok and two weeks later not— get everything is ok and two weeks later not only is it not ok, it wasn't — later not only is it not ok, it wasn't even there. that is very unusual— wasn't even there. that is very unusual in— wasn't even there. that is very unusual in my experience. so my point _ unusual in my experience. so my point is _ unusual in my experience. so my point is not — unusual in my experience. so my point is not only was that a problem. _ point is not only was that a problem, but why was the department of health, _ problem, but why was the department of health, there was not anybody to see it _ of health, there was not anybody to see it is _ of health, there was not anybody to see it is not — of health, there was not anybody to see it is not quite like that my experiences we did not get all signals— experiences we did not get all signals to from the department and did not— signals to from the department and did not get a sense that actually what _ did not get a sense that actually what we — did not get a sense that actually what we were being told might not be i’i l ht what we were being told might not be right and _ what we were being told might not be right and that also then led to i would — right and that also then led to i would have thought reasonably concern — would have thought reasonably concern the processes and structures we had _ concern the processes and structures we had put _ concern the processes and structures we had put in place an order to create — we had put in place an order to create any— we had put in place an order to create any accountability or not actually — create any accountability or not actually working because things turned — actually working because things turned out not to be the case very quickly _ turned out not to be the case very quickly afterwards.— turned out not to be the case very quickly afterwards. yes, there was an issue with _ quickly afterwards. yes, there was an issue with processes, _ quickly afterwards. yes, there was| an issue with processes, structures at the department of health but does it come back to the fact that mr hancock regularly was telling people things they later discovered were not true? . things they later discovered were not true? yes. page 39 of your statement. — not true? yes. page 39 of your statement, it _ not true? yes. page 39 of your statement, it relates _ not true? yes. page 39 of your statement, it relates back to that period, the very tense and difficult period, the very tense and difficult period just after he came back to work in april and at the beginning of the paragraph you see it was a fragile time. in this paragraph you describe been inside the eerily empty number ten, probably because everyone was off with covid back to mr hancock had recovered and was back. you say you were pleased to see him recovered and we talked about your respective experiences. then you say you remember trying to reassure him he did not need to be in the office, especially not number ten and saying it must be very hard as health secretary because he could not have imagined the enormity of the decisions he would be involved and when he was appointed. given as you say it was a long way from a day job, you wanted to know if there was any more help or support he needed. then you included in a statement this account, and also his response, which is he reassured me he was loving the responsibility and to demonstrate this to up the stance of a batsmen outside the cabinet room and said the ball them at me and i knock them away. ——they bowl. are you trying to tell us something of your assessment of mr hancox character the whole he did hisjob? i am trying to expend howjarring some _ i am trying to expend howjarring some of— i am trying to expend howjarring some of that was and how lots of us theoretical— some of that was and how lots of us theoretical in the same place, it goes _ theoretical in the same place, it goes partly back to my point back to nuclear— goes partly back to my point back to nuclear levels of confidence being deployed. —— mr hancock's. this moment— deployed. —— mr hancock's. this moment stop with me and i have tried throughout— moment stop with me and i have tried throughout the statement to give you the most _ throughout the statement to give you the most honest and best account a can of— the most honest and best account a can of what— the most honest and best account a can of what it was like to be there because _ can of what it was like to be there because i— can of what it was like to be there because i think that is the best service — because i think that is the best service i— because i think that is the best service i can do in terms of you being _ service i can do in terms of you being able _ service i can do in terms of you being able to come to some conclusions. it was important to me at the _ conclusions. it was important to me at the time — conclusions. it was important to me at the time sol conclusions. it was important to me at the time so i felt it important to include — at the time so i felt it important to include in this way, but it is more — to include in this way, but it is more the _ to include in this way, but it is more the point about confidence than anything _ more the point about confidence than anything else. more the point about confidence than anything else-— anything else. confidence or overconfidence? _ anything else. confidence or overconfidence? yes, - anything else. confidence or- overconfidence? yes, overconfidence. goint back overconfidence? yes, overconfidence. going back to — overconfidence? yes, overconfidence. going back to my _ overconfidence? yes, overconfidence. going back to my humanity _ overconfidence? yes, overconfidence. going back to my humanity point, - overconfidence? yes, overconfidence. going back to my humanity point, i. going back to my humanity point, i think— going back to my humanity point, i think this _ going back to my humanity point, i think this failure to appreciate all the time — think this failure to appreciate all the time that what we were doing was making _ the time that what we were doing was making decisions that would impact on everybody's lives and that meant lots of _ on everybody's lives and that meant lots of reat— on everybody's lives and that meant lots of real people with real consequences, and i don't think there _ consequences, and i don't think there was— consequences, and i don't think there was never enough attention paid to _ there was never enough attention paid to that. there was never enough attention paid to that-— paid to that. you are trying to enttae paid to that. you are trying to engage with _ paid to that. you are trying to engage with mr— paid to that. you are trying to engage with mr hancock- paid to that. you are trying to | engage with mr hancock about paid to that. you are trying to - engage with mr hancock about the incredibly onerous scope and impact of the decisions he would have to make. the impact on the lives of everyone in the country of those decisions. he thought he was playing cricket. i decisions. he thought he was playing cricket. . . . decisions. he thought he was playing cricket. ., , , ., , cricket. i assumed it would be weitthin cricket. i assumed it would be weighing heavily _ cricket. i assumed it would be weighing heavily on _ cricket. i assumed it would be weighing heavily on his - cricket. i assumed it would be . weighing heavily on his shoulders and he _ weighing heavily on his shoulders and he may well tell you it was and he felt _ and he may well tell you it was and he felt it— and he may well tell you it was and he felt it was important to protect something else instead, i do not know, _ something else instead, i do not know. i— something else instead, i do not know, ijust know howl something else instead, i do not know, ijust know how i experienced that~ _ know, i “ust know howl experienced that. �* ., ., , , ., that. are we going to finish before lunch? it has _ that. are we going to finish before lunch? it has been _ that. are we going to finish before lunch? it has been a _ that. are we going to finish before lunch? it has been a long - that. are we going to finish before lunch? it has been a long morningj lunch? it has been a long morning for you. _ lunch? it has been a long morning for you. i— lunch? it has been a long morning for you. ithink— lunch? it has been a long morning for you, i think we _ lunch? it has been a long morning for you, i think we will— lunch? it has been a long morning for you, i think we will now- lunch? it has been a long morning for you, i think we will now breakl for you, i think we will now break for you, i think we will now break for lunch— for you, i think we will now break for lunch and _ for you, i think we will now break for lunch and five _ for you, i think we will now break for lunch and five to _ for you, i think we will now break for lunch and five to two, - for you, i think we will now break for lunch and five to two, please. you are _ for lunch and five to two, please. you are watching _ for lunch and five to two, please. you are watching a _ for lunch and five to two, please. you are watching a live _ for lunch and five to two, please. you are watching a live stream i for lunch and five to two, please. you are watching a live stream of the uk covid inquiry and we have been hearing from helen macnamara, the second most senior civil servant in the uk. she was pressed on the preparedness of the government when the then prime minister boris johnson contracted covid and was confined to hospital in april 2020 and she said there were no plans and it felt like they were living and working in a dystopian nightmare. she was asked about preparedness in the cabinet office for keeping people safe and she said there was a failure to recognise the duty of care for people who worked in that office and should give an example saying that it took seven months to get a hand sanitiser station return on the door between the cabinet office and number ten where there was a pin pad staff needed to use and said that was evidence of the culture at the time. she also spoke about the moment she realised the uk was heading for disaster and we will hear more of her evidence after lunch. today at one. the gaza border with egypt is opened for the first time since the latest israel—hamas conflict began. some injured civilians, as well as foreign nationals, are due to be allowed through the rafah crossing in the coming days. and i am in rafa, where the border is open for the first time since the war. about 150 people already about 150 people already passed. and our other main stories this lunchtime. flooding and disruption in many parts of northern ireland — and heavy rain is continuing to fall. yes, here in jersey yes, here injersey these are some of the flood protection measures that have being put in place, the channel islands are braced for some of the strongest winds and highest tides that anyone here can remember. a senior civil servant tells the covid