to reach for to show you and your colleagues how you might address this problem, is that right? yes. colleagues how you might address this problem, is that right? yes, it is. and i this problem, is that right? yes, it is. and i think— this problem, is that right? yes, it is. and | think it _ this problem, is that right? yes, it is. and i think it is _ this problem, is that right? yes, it is. and i think it is probably - is. and i think it is probably accurate _ is. and i think it is probably accurate to say there were times in this period — accurate to say there were times in this period when it felt like working _ this period when it felt like working or living in a dystopian nightmare where when one thing had happened _ nightmare where when one thing had happened the next terrible things about— happened the next terrible things about to — happened the next terrible things about to happen and the prime minister— about to happen and the prime minister being so gravely ill it is fair to— minister being so gravely ill it is fair to say— minister being so gravely ill it is fair to say there is no magic cupboard _ fair to say there is no magic cupboard you can open in the cabinet office _ cupboard you can open in the cabinet office what— cupboard you can open in the cabinet office what you can do in these circumstances but i would not want to be _ circumstances but i would not want to be too _ circumstances but i would not want to be too alarming around that because — to be too alarming around that because there is always precedents and practice and knowledge and expertise you can draw on in those circumstances but personally it was very challenging. the cabinet secretary also had covid at this point _ secretary also had covid at this point in — secretary also had covid at this point in time and we all felt very vulnerable. if point in time and we all felt very vulnerable-— vulnerable. if we look at the document. _ vulnerable. if we look at the document, 286 _ vulnerable. if we look at the document, 286 zero - vulnerable. if we look at the document, 286 zero 29. - vulnerable. if we look at the | document, 286 zero 29. this vulnerable. if we look at the i document, 286 zero 29. this is vulnerable. if we look at the - document, 286 zero 29. this is a document, 286 zero 29. this is a document you drafted and i think we underline the word draft. this document you drafted and i think we underline the word draft.— underline the word draft. this is one of the _ underline the word draft. this is one of the experiences - underline the word draft. this is one of the experiences of- underline the word draft. this is | one of the experiences of coming underline the word draft. this is - one of the experiences of coming for these _ one of the experiences of coming for these inquiries issue see your first draft. _ these inquiries issue see your first draft. this— these inquiries issue see your first draft. this is— these inquiries issue see your first draft, this is the first draft of my thinking — draft, this is the first draft of my thinking on that sunday, i think. will thinking on that sunday, i think. witt take — thinking on that sunday, i think. witt take it — thinking on that sunday, i think. will take it as we find it. it is certainly a valuable insight into the types of issues you felt you needed to consider at the time and we can see you have put on the title how we manage well when the prime minister is ill and the scenario may be in a feasible but able to communicate and if he is unable to communicate and if he is unable to communicate his wishes and a series of categories of decision—making which perhaps reflected cabinet office directorates are areas of work and first thought as to how you might manage she would take these decisions on whether the needed to be taken or could be deferred, a battle plan in a way. it is be taken or could be deferred, a battle plan in a way.— be taken or could be deferred, a battle plan in a way. it is the very first draft of— battle plan in a way. it is the very first draft of it _ battle plan in a way. it is the very first draft of it and _ battle plan in a way. it is the very first draft of it and i _ battle plan in a way. it is the very first draft of it and i can _ battle plan in a way. it is the very first draft of it and i can promise l first draft of it and i can promise the later— first draft of it and i can promise the later draft is more polished and the later draft is more polished and the final— the later draft is more polished and the final version lines up some of this _ the final version lines up some of this. , . ., , the final version lines up some of this. , _, , ., this. on the second page there is a series include _ this. on the second page there is a series include civil— this. on the second page there is a series include civil service - this. on the second page there is a series include civil service style - series include civil service style of lines to take and questions and answers, the types of issues you are anticipating people perhaps not necessarily the press but people with whom you're dealing will want to know the answer. we get a sense perhaps of that vulnerability you are just describing and exactly how anxious and also the sense of making it up as you go along if you look at the third page, the question what if the third page, the question what if the prime minister gets worse? scenario c and your reflection, god knows what we say here and the final sentence we don't think there is a world that level of uncertainty will stretch out and away that we think is sustainable so in other words if he does worsen will have to make a plan is that what you're saying? yes, and this is conversational styte _ yes, and this is conversational style because it is a document i had written _ style because it is a document i had written for— style because it is a document i had written for various teams to start fteshing — written for various teams to start fleshing out and start writing the real detailed questions and answers but this— real detailed questions and answers but this is— real detailed questions and answers but this is entirely in line with what — but this is entirely in line with what i — but this is entirely in line with what i was _ but this is entirely in line with what i was thinking. you might want to come _ what i was thinking. you might want to come back to the question of preparedness. we have been told many time a _ preparedness. we have been told many time a pandemic, an influenza endemic— time a pandemic, an influenza endemic was that the top of the national— endemic was that the top of the national risk register we have spoken— national risk register we have spoken about the plans that whether or not— spoken about the plans that whether or not made to prepare for such a pandemic, — or not made to prepare for such a pandemic, even if it was a flu pandemic— pandemic, even if it was a flu pandemic that was to emerge rather than the _ pandemic that was to emerge rather than the ., ,, ., .,. ., than the covid we know in fact to lace it than the covid we know in fact to place it would — than the covid we know in fact to place it would be _ than the covid we know in fact to place it would be entirely - place it would be entirely foreseeable that people at the top of government including the prime minister would be affected by the illness. do you not think with that in mind this is the sort of thinking that should have been done in advance, not necessarily by you but by the system? i do advance, not necessarily by you but by the system?— by the system? i do think this should have _ by the system? i do think this should have been _ by the system? i do think this should have been more - by the system? i do think this l should have been more thinking by the system? i do think this - should have been more thinking in advance _ should have been more thinking in advance and now i would be amazed and horrified if there isn't and when — and horrified if there isn't and when you _ and horrified if there isn't and when you are in this kind of crisis we are _ when you are in this kind of crisis we are the — when you are in this kind of crisis we are the key people can get l other— we are the key people can get l other families get l they suffered a bereavement that there is a better set of _ bereavement that there is a better set of plans and provisions for the payment — set of plans and provisions for the payment but also other ministers, and although you're absolutely right, — and although you're absolutely right, that is not open the box and he does _ right, that is not open the box and he does the — right, that is not open the box and he does the plan on a prime minister being _ he does the plan on a prime minister being itt, _ he does the plan on a prime minister being ill, fortunately mark said well and — being ill, fortunately mark said well and i had done some work on this in— well and i had done some work on this in the — well and i had done some work on this in the summer of 2018 just after— this in the summer of 2018 just after we — this in the summer of 2018 just after we had both taken up a role and i_ after we had both taken up a role and i should point out there are peopte — and i should point out there are people whose job it is to think about— people whose job it is to think about these things in the cabinet office, _ about these things in the cabinet office, so— about these things in the cabinet office, so i was surrounded by peopte — office, so i was surrounded by people with deep constitutional expertise but the nature of our constitution is not everything is written — constitution is not everything is written down and in practice what it relies _ written down and in practice what it relies on _ written down and in practice what it relies on sensible people making sensibte — relies on sensible people making sensible decisions and i don't think anybody— sensible decisions and i don't think anybody had foreseen the difficulties of trying to do this particular bit of thinking while actuatty— particular bit of thinking while actually the impact of the prime minister— actually the impact of the prime minister being so l and god forbid the worst— minister being so l and god forbid the worst happened would also be an even more _ the worst happened would also be an even more significant thing for the country— even more significant thing for the country and the combined potential for that— country and the combined potential for that sort of instability was genuinely awful. no for that sort of instability was genuinely awful.— for that sort of instability was genuinely awful. no doubt you're riaht to genuinely awful. no doubt you're right to say _ genuinely awful. no doubt you're right to say there _ genuinely awful. no doubt you're right to say there are _ genuinely awful. no doubt you're right to say there are people - genuinely awful. no doubt you're right to say there are people in i genuinely awful. no doubt you're i right to say there are people in the cabinet office steeped these sorts of issues, but i think you also agree it is very sensible to have some plans prepared.— agree it is very sensible to have some plans prepared. yes, and it will not surprise _ some plans prepared. yes, and it will not surprise you _ some plans prepared. yes, and it will not surprise you to _ some plans prepared. yes, and it will not surprise you to know - some plans prepared. yes, and it| will not surprise you to know after this we _ will not surprise you to know after this we make sure there were some plans— this we make sure there were some plans and _ this we make sure there were some plans and i— this we make sure there were some plans and i was pleased to see that are no— plans and i was pleased to see that are no more — plans and i was pleased to see that are no more robust arrangements in place, _ are no more robust arrangements in place. not _ are no more robust arrangements in place. not an— are no more robust arrangements in place, not an experience you would want _ place, not an experience you would want anybody to go through twice. taking _ want anybody to go through twice. taking a _ want anybody to go through twice. taking a step to one side, we have talking about what planning there was or not there to deal with the situation of the prime minister the coming very well but as you mentioned, it is also the case that particularly at this time, march and early april, there were an awful lot of people at the top of government who were l, notjust the prime minister, in we have also mentioned marc sidwell who was ill and you were l and matt hancock had covid we don't know exactly how any of you caught covid but is it fair to say there were not the plans or procedures or safeguards that might have been to stop quite so many people in and around downing street getting a transmissible virus at a time of a pandemic? it is absently fair and i really _ time of a pandemic? it is absently fair and i really hope _ time of a pandemic? it is absently fair and i really hope there - time of a pandemic? it is absently fair and i really hope there is - time of a pandemic? it is absently| fair and i really hope there is more of a plan _ fair and i really hope there is more of a plan now and it is probably the case that— of a plan now and it is probably the case that even weeks and weeks before _ case that even weeks and weeks before there was a decision to be made _ before there was a decision to be made to— before there was a decision to be made to go to the next stage in terms _ made to go to the next stage in terms of— made to go to the next stage in terms of the whole country that should — terms of the whole country that should have been more care taken about— should have been more care taken about the — should have been more care taken about the key people who might be involved _ about the key people who might be involved in those decisions and some of the _ involved in those decisions and some of the things put in place later in terms _ of the things put in place later in terms of— of the things put in place later in terms of having alternates and peopte — terms of having alternates and people not always been in same room and sensible stuff about how you would _ and sensible stuff about how you would minimise transmission, you would _ would minimise transmission, you would hope that is there now. you are no doubt _ would hope that is there now. ym. are no doubt right there are quite sophisticated and that could be made when you know of irises coming to separate people and taking extra all the clever things you could put in place to try to minimise the risk a number of people in a particular part of government would all be off at the same time but you refer in your statement to something far more basic. if we can look at page 95 of your statement, basic. if we can look at page 95 of yourstatement, paragraph basic. if we can look at page 95 of your statement, paragraph i94. basic. if we can look at page 95 of yourstatement, paragraph 194. four your statement, paragraph 194. four orfive yourstatement, paragraph 194. four orfive lines down, yourstatement, paragraph 194. four or five lines down, you see an organisation, the cabinet office excels in creating the kind of faceless bureaucracy maddening even to those theoretically in positions of power. from the outset there was a failure to recognise a duty of care for people who worked at number ten of the secretariat or task force and even the basics were neglected. as a small but demonstrative example it took seven months after the beginning of the plan to make —— a pandemic to get a hand sanitiser station by the link door between number ten and the cabinet office which everyone was always having to touch the link pad on their way through. touch the link pad on their way throu~h. , ., touch the link pad on their way throu~h. i. .,, touch the link pad on their way throu~h. , , , ., through. everyone was surprised for that when we _ through. everyone was surprised for that when we went _ through. everyone was surprised for that when we went back _ through. everyone was surprised for that when we went back into - through. everyone was surprised for that when we went back into the - that when we went back into the record _ that when we went back into the record and — that when we went back into the record and saw how long it took. it record and saw how long it took. it is all record and saw how long it took. is all very record and saw how long it took. it is all very well to think of those complicated arrangements like the royal family to stop senior officials and politicians becoming infected bit of working between cabinet office and number ten and they are all having to touch a touchpad and no hand sanitiser it is perhaps hardly surprising so many of you got covid at the same time. it is not surprising at all and indicative of lack of care which i think— indicative of lack of care which i think was— indicative of lack of care which i think was damaging in many ways. do think was damaging in many ways. dy: you think was damaging in many ways. you think that think was damaging in many ways. drr you think that sort of planning has been done or systems change so we can have confidence that if there was let's say a flu pandemicjust as transmissible if not more so than covid perhaps there would be sanitiser on the touchpad? i covid perhaps there would be sanitiser on the touchpad? i hope so and more importantly _ sanitiser on the touchpad? i hope so and more importantly that _ sanitiser on the touchpad? i hope so and more importantly that people i sanitiser on the touchpad? i hope sol and more importantly that people are better— and more importantly that people are better looked after. i and more importantly that people are better looked after.— better looked after. i want to move on to another— better looked after. i want to move on to another topic, _ better looked after. i want to move on to another topic, another - better looked after. i want to move | on to another topic, another matter which concerns you as soon as she came back to work. that was you describing in your statement as soon as she came back you quickly realised there were very serious problems with the cabinet office team in part because they told to, members of staff, they were working under great pressure and were unhappy. and you describe at least one of the responses to that problem was conducting a review, as we will see, something you did in early may of 2020. we will look at documents in a minute but we will see i think that she worked first of all with martin reynolds, the political private secretary for the prime minister, someone we are familiar with and gave evidence earlier this week. also an official called john owen who we have not seen so much. can you tell us what his job was? he can you tell us what his “0b was? he was can you tell us what his job was? he was the principal secretary to the cabinet _ was the principal secretary to the cabinet secretary. he was the principal secretary to the cabinet secretary.— was the principal secretary to the cabinet secretary. he did a similar 'ob cabinet secretary. he did a similar “0b to mr cabinet secretary. he did a similar job to mr reynolds? _ cabinet secretary. he did a similar job to mr reynolds? he _ cabinet secretary. he did a similar job to mr reynolds? he was - cabinet secretary. he did a similar job to mr reynolds? he was the i job to mr reynolds? he was the director of _ job to mr reynolds? he was the director of that _ job to mr reynolds? he was the director of that at _ job to mr reynolds? he was the director of that at the _ job to mr reynolds? he was the director of that at the time. i job to mr reynolds? he was the director of that at the time. we | director of that at the time. we have director of that at the time. - have touched on the fact number ten and the cabinet office are different but the same but this was what he did across both organisations? i felt it very important it was owned by both— felt it very important it was owned by both organisations stop because of some _ by both organisations stop because of some of— by both organisations stop because of some of that friction and it was much _ of some of that friction and it was much better if it was the prime minister— much better if it was the prime minister and the cabinet secretary had together asked for this piece of work and _ had together asked for this piece of work and the reason why i thought it was important to provide a space where _ was important to provide a space where att— was important to provide a space where all the people who were very cross _ where all the people who were very cross in _ where all the people who were very cross in and — where all the people who were very cross in and happy could tell me exactly how cross and unhappy they were in _ exactly how cross and unhappy they were in a _ exactly how cross and unhappy they were in a way i could do something about _ were in a way i could do something about. throughout what was properly trying _ about. throughout what was properly trying to _ about. throughout what was properly trying to do _ about. throughout what was properly trying to do is do the things i could — trying to do is do the things i could and _ trying to do is do the things i could and i felt strongly you can much _ could and i felt strongly you can much about seeing everything is terrible — much about seeing everything is terrible and you can commentate on the chaos— terrible and you can commentate on the chaos you can try to do something to fix things and i tried to do— something to fix things and i tried to do something to fix things and to -ive to do something to fix things and to give a _ to do something to fix things and to give a space to people being upset and unhappy as well as getting them to tell— and unhappy as well as getting them to tell me _ and unhappy as well as getting them to tell me how to fix it. and and unhappy as well as getting them to tell me how to fix it.— to tell me how to fix it. and they told ou to tell me how to fix it. and they told you in _ to tell me how to fix it. and they told you in person _ to tell me how to fix it. and they told you in person interviewing l to tell me how to fix it. and they. told you in person interviewing 40 or more people over a few days for the purposes of the report. with those interviews you conducted on your own or with mr owen? i think martin and — your own or with mr owen? i think martin and i _ your own or with mr owen? i think martin and i did _
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