of what lee kane said earlier, through the problem. 13:1 in light of what lee kane said earlier, can you make plain that it doesn't appearas you make plain that it doesn't appear as if any decision was made during the course of the weekend for a long time, there was a change in the strategic approach of the government, there was a realisation that they had to be a change of approach and much more stringent measures were likely to be required, but no actual decision was made to impose a lockdown?— but no actual decision was made to impose a lockdown? correct. the way i would describe _ impose a lockdown? correct. the way i would describe it _ impose a lockdown? correct. the way i would describe it was _ impose a lockdown? correct. the way i would describe it was we _ impose a lockdown? correct. the way i would describe it was we had - impose a lockdown? correct. the way i would describe it was we had a - i would describe it was we had a conversation with the pm on the saturday morning, we told him our concerns that plan after mckay was heading for a catastrophe. after that i spoke to patrick vallance and articulated my concerns and my ideas about the plan the sketch on the whiteboard. patrick vallance has clearly changed his mind in various ways as well and i sent a text to the pm and i agreed with patrick that we would organise a meeting on sunday at which and i jointly would try to articulate a different way forward, but i was very keen for him to do this rather than me for obvious reasons.— to do this rather than me for obvious reasons. �* ., , . ., ., obvious reasons. and to be clear, at the morning — obvious reasons. and to be clear, at the morning meeting _ obvious reasons. and to be clear, at the morning meeting on _ obvious reasons. and to be clear, at the morning meeting on the - obvious reasons. and to be clear, at the morning meeting on the 14th, i obvious reasons. and to be clear, at| the morning meeting on the 14th, on the morning meeting on the 14th, on the saturday, you said need to do in the saturday, you said need to do in the next 72 hours to avoid nhs lockdown, and there was a debate included michael gove mp in which he said go now. we know that from the nose of the meeting kept by imran shafi. i nose of the meeting kept by imran shafi. , ~ . ., shafi. i remember michael gove sa in: shafi. i remember michael gove saying that- _ shafi. i remember michael gove saying that- on _ shafi. i remember michael gove saying that. on the _ shafi. i remember michael gove saying that. on the sunday - shafi. i remember michael gove saying that. on the sunday and | shafi. i remember michael gove i saying that. on the sunday and in fact throughout _ saying that. on the sunday and in fact throughout the _ saying that. on the sunday and in fact throughout the weekend - saying that. on the sunday and in fact throughout the weekend and | fact throughout the weekend and onwards on the monday, there was a whatsapp group titled csa cso, concerning the need to accelerate the social distancing plans. in essence, do you agree?- the social distancing plans. in essence, do you agree? yes. and there was — essence, do you agree? yes. and there was a _ essence, do you agree? jez1 and there was a debate including essence, do you agree? 121 and there was a debate including mr hancock about the need to ramp up testing, not stop testing, the need to continue contact tracing and introduce herself contact tracing and i think you should you at 7:30pm on the 14th of march that both of those were in hand. do you recall? vaguely, yes. fin those were in hand. do you recall? vaguely, yes-— vaguely, yes. on the sunday there were further— vaguely, yes. on the sunday there were further meetings _ vaguely, yes. on the sunday there were further meetings and - vaguely, yes. on the sunday there were further meetings and the - vaguely, yes. on the sunday there l were further meetings and the prime minister held a meeting with his closest advisers in which you had summarised the discussions from the day before about the need to move to plan b. was a decision about the government's approach able to be taken at the meeting ordered the prime minister want to confer further with the chief medical officer and the governmental scientific adviser? i officer and the governmental scientific adviser?— officer and the governmental scientific adviser? i am not sure which meeting _ scientific adviser? i am not sure which meeting you _ scientific adviser? i am not sure which meeting you are - scientific adviser? i am not sure which meeting you are referringi scientific adviser? i am not sure . which meeting you are referring to. you said on the sunday. so on the sunday i met with patrick and chris, certainly with patrick, possibly with chris, before the meeting with the pm. then at five o'clock i think it was at that meeting was with patrick and the pm. est it was at that meeting was with patrick and the pm.— it was at that meeting was with patrick and the pm. at that meeting did an bod patrick and the pm. at that meeting did anybody express _ patrick and the pm. at that meeting did anybody express anger- patrick and the pm. at that meeting did anybody express anger or - did anybody express anger or irritation or annoyance at the view then being expressed by sir patrick vallance as for the need to change course? i vallance as for the need to change course? ., _ .,, ., course? i would say there was a treat course? i would say there was a great deal _ course? i would say there was a great deal of — course? i would say there was a great deal of confusion - course? i would say there was a great deal of confusion at - course? i would say there was a great deal of confusion at that l great deal of confusion at that meeting in terms of the reactions to it because patrick and i were essentially suggesting the original herd immunity plan had to be ditched. there was anger after the meeting expressed by people in the cabinet office and at dhse, reflecting the fact that they were essentially blindsided. as far as people in the cabinet office and dhse are new, plan a was in place and matt hancock said on the saturday morning, we have got to stick to the plan, and quote, so when patrick and i wielded whiteboard and said we have to go down a different route on the sunday evening i was told after that that patrick vallance was reprimanded by various people and there was a very angry reaction in the cabinet office. in angry reaction in the cabinet office. . ., office. in particular it was he reprimanded _ office. in particular it was he reprimanded by _ office. in particular it was he reprimanded by the - office. in particular it was he i reprimanded by the permanent secretary of the dhse for having, as the permanent secretary appear to think, promoted, advocated, a change in direction without the permanent secretary's knowledge? that in direction without the permanent secretary's knowledge?— secretary's knowledge? that is my understanding _ secretary's knowledge? that is my understanding and _ secretary's knowledge? that is my understanding and you _ secretary's knowledge? that is my understanding and you can - secretary's knowledge? that is my understanding and you can see - secretary's knowledge? that is myi understanding and you can see the messages on the 18th that the permanent secretary at dhse was behind the curve on this whole discussion.— behind the curve on this whole discussion. �* .. , ., , , discussion. because he was still talkin: discussion. because he was still talking about — discussion. because he was still talking about the _ discussion. because he was still talking about the one-way - discussion. because he was still- talking about the one-way strategy, talking about the one—way strategy, talking about the one—way strategy, talking about the one—way strategy, talking about why the nhs will be over topped, to use his words? correct. for complete clarity it is a big mistake to think there was a kind of clear moment. this was all complete chaos. there were informal meetings on friday, informal and formal meetings on saturday, formal and informal meetings on sunday, patrick and i articulated a plan b, the pm thinking about it. there is the pm thinking about it. there is the cabinet secretary and other people thinking what the hell is going on? are we ditching plan eh? it is important not to think this was all very clear and everyone left the meeting and everyone was aligned. it was a very chaotic process, that transition. 50 aligned. it was a very chaotic process, that transition. so chaotic was it that data _ process, that transition. so chaotic was it that data and _ process, that transition. so chaotic was it that data and whiteboard - process, that transition. so chaotic| was it that data and whiteboard and the information you were using to make your point were themselves out of date. if we can have 48313, your letter to the inquiry, at page 39. this is a screenshot you have provided of charts from the nhs showing how the bed capacity of the nhs would be overwhelmed. yes. that information. — nhs would be overwhelmed. 121 that information, page 40, please, i thinki information, page 40, please, i think i must have got the wrong reference. there are nhs graphs which were shown to you and which you deployed in order to show the crisis facing the nhs that weekend in which the peak on those graphs were still being shown as being in june of 2020. 50. were still being shown as being in june of 2020-— june of 2020. so, no, that is slirhtl june of 2020. so, no, that is slightly confused. _ june of 2020. so, no, that is slightly confused. there - june of 2020. so, no, that is slightly confused. there are | june of 2020. so, no, that is i slightly confused. there are two different sets of graphs. there are certain graphs that came from cobra and theseus which were showing the peak in june and theseus which were showing the peak injune at this time. the nhs graphs which had been provided by the nhs, essentially from stephen's office, the ones i refer to earlier, which were shown to us on thursday the 12th, if you look at the photo of me in the room with the pm on saturday the 14th, you can see that the nhs graphs or in front of us. part of what that meeting was about was showing him here is what the cabinet office and the theseus are planning on the basis of the dhse, but here are the actual nhs graphs which stevens has provided and which is much more accurate. they completely mismatch. because the first set of graphs _ completely mismatch. because the first set of graphs showed - completely mismatch. because the first set of graphs showed and - first set of graphs showed and continue to show that the peak would be in june, continue to show that the peak would be injune, information that had already been received in downing street, that we are aware of the trajectory and it was coming sooner than expected. trajectory and it was coming sooner than exoeeted-_ than expected. correct, it was a measure of _ than expected. correct, it was a measure of how— than expected. correct, it was a measure of how bad _ than expected. correct, it was a measure of how bad that - than expected. correct, it was a measure of how bad that was, l than expected. correct, it was a - measure of how bad that was, even we were having these conversations and these are the graphs from the nhs and the ccf graphs are wrong from cobra. these appeared in the briefing pack for two weeks after this and somehow it had got embedded in the system and it was very hard to get it out. it was still appearing after we had even decided to do the first opt out.— to do the first opt out. during the course of that _ to do the first opt out. during the course of that week _ to do the first opt out. during the course of that week commencing | to do the first opt out. during the i course of that week commencing on monday the 16th of march, there were urgent debates and there was rapid consideration of the need to shut schools, which you call for in a number of texts and messages. you call for london to be locked down to stop the nhs collapse in london in 15 days. there was obviously an extensive debate about whether or not practically are lot and could be put into place, as well as whether it should be a national or london first and the rest of the country after. what was the prime minister's general position in relation to whether or not this was a course that would have to be contemplated and pursued? iie that would have to be contemplated and pursued?— and pursued? he oscillated through the course of _ and pursued? he oscillated through the course of the _ and pursued? he oscillated through the course of the week. _ and pursued? he oscillated through the course of the week. i _ and pursued? he oscillated through the course of the week. i think- and pursued? he oscillated through the course of the week. i think that| the course of the week. i think that he liked me in the wake of the night, his that sense was telling him that something had gone wrong. i think he had been very alarmed by the chickenpox party. when he heard the chickenpox party. when he heard the most senior official in the country use this, it wasn't to blame about mark, but it was some signal about mark, but it was some signal about who's briefing with ideas like this? so he was concerned. we talked to a saturday and said we have to dig plan a and proceed with plan b, he was certainly open. but like me and others he was somewhat dumbstruck that we were in the situation. of course there was no plan for lockdown so he was a reasonable saying, how do we lockdown when there is no plan for lockdown when there is no plan for lockdown and i have been told for the last eight weeks that any lockdown is impossible and it is mad because it means an even worse second wave and now you and others are saying we have to look down, what the hell is going on? in your statement _ what the hell is going on? in your statement you — what the hell is going on? in your statement you refer _ what the hell is going on? in your statement you refer to _ what the hell is going on? in your statement you refer to a - what the hell is going on? in your statement you refer to a numberl what the hell is going on? in your. statement you refer to a number of difficult discussions with the prime minister because of the way in which he swung and veered from taking the view there had to be a long to taking the view that they should not, were those careful and measured considerations of the options or were they, to use your language, wild oscillations and trolling? to wild oscillations and trolling? tfr refer to the it is hard to overstate, the last time anyone had beenin overstate, the last time anyone had been in that building in a situation like that was literally churchill. it was an extraordinary situation and the pm had repeatedly extraordinary meetings, so he suddenly had a cabinet secretary coming in saying, are you sure about this? this is all going to kick off. we had the chancellor coming in and saying the bond markets might puke and we might have a massive financial crisis.— and we might have a massive financial crisis. slow down, mr cummings- — financial crisis. slow down, mr cummings. there _ financial crisis. slow down, mr cummings. there were - financial crisis. slow down, mr cummings. there were a - financial crisis. slow down, mr cummings. there were a lot i financial crisis. slow down, mr| cummings. there were a lot of financial crisis. slow down, mr - cummings. there were a lot of crazy thins of cummings. there were a lot of crazy things of people _ cummings. there were a lot of crazy things of people suddenly _ cummings. there were a lot of crazy things of people suddenly coming i things of people suddenly coming into his study saying wildly different things. so although i have been very critical of him i think it is important to understand in this context that he was being buffeted very strongly by different forces. there were a million and one set of people making an argument that we had basically been chi borscht by disastrous group thinking and we had to change path. people in the cabinet office were saying something else and the treasury people were warning him that if we went down this path, then we might provoke another parallel disaster. figs this path, then we might provoke another parallel disaster.- another parallel disaster. as the da s another parallel disaster. as the days unfold _ another parallel disaster. as the days unfold and _ another parallel disaster. as the days unfold and he _ another parallel disaster. as the days unfold and he backed - another parallel disaster. as the days unfold and he backed and l another parallel disaster. as the - days unfold and he backed and veered from supporting a lockdown to being incredibly concerned about the prospect of ordering a lockdown. on the 19th of march a bilateral meeting with the chancellor of the h effort and the inquiries received evidence that somebody said, we are killing the patient to tackle the tumour, large numbers of people will die, why are we destroying everything for people who will die sometime soon? who everything for people who will die sometime soon?— everything for people who will die sometime soon? who said that? i think it was _ sometime soon? who said that? i think it was the _ sometime soon? who said that? i think it was the pm. _ sometime soon? who said that? i think it was the pm. was - sometime soon? who said that? i think it was the pm. was it - sometime soon? who said that? i think it was the pm. was it a - think it was the pm. was it a reflection — think it was the pm. was it a reflection of _ think it was the pm. was it a reflection of the _ think it was the pm. was it a reflection of the agonising i think it was the pm. was it a - reflection of the agonising debate going on in downing street? . reflection of the agonising debate going on in downing street? , yes, and a reflection _ going on in downing street? , yes, and a reflection of _ going on in downing street? , yes, and a reflection of the _ going on in downing street? , yes, and a reflection of the fact - going on in downing street? , yes, and a reflection of the fact the - and a reflection of the fact the treasury were baffled as to what was going on. we had a plan, why were we not sticking to it? but going on. we had a plan, why were we not sticking to it?— not sticking to it? but the chancellor _ not sticking to it? but the chancellor was _ not sticking to it? but the chancellor was not - not sticking to it? but the chancellor was not trying | not sticking to it? but the l chancellor was not trying to not sticking to it? but the - chancellor was not trying to stop serious action being taken, from your statement, that is what you say, but you sent e—mails and wass to lee kane and we saw one this morning saying, get in here, he is melting down, it is back to jaws mode, i have said the same thing to him ten times and there were references to trolling. it does appear there was a very real problem in getting the prime minister to agree... apologies for some of the language being used in this communication, this is a live stream coming in from the inquiry and some of the language being used is unpleasant. ii the inquiry and some of the language being used is unpleasant. if you the inquiry and some of the language being used is unpleasant.— being used is unpleasant. if you go back a week _ being used is unpleasant. if you go back a week prior _ being used is unpleasant. if you go back a week prior to _ being used is unpleasant. if you go back a week prior to the _ being used is unpleasant. if you go back a week prior to the 19th, - being used is unpleasant. if you go back a week prior to the 19th, the l back a week prior to the 19th, the whole weight of the machine was behind plan a. by the time you get to the 19th the whole weight of the machine had shifted and this was cascading through the system of we cannot do plan a. obviously when you look at what it means and how fast it is going to unfold, we have to shift. there is a huge institutional shift. there is a huge institutional shift over the course of that week and part of what i was referring to in that message was by the 19th it was totally obvious that there was going to be a lockdown and my fear then was that if the pm suddenly went back, all it would do was cause more needless confusion. if you imagine how hard it was to ditch plan a for plan b, if the pm had said hang on, we might be back to plan a, we would all be holding our heads. �* ., , ., heads. and it would cause more dela ? heads. and it would cause more delay? yes- _ heads. and it would cause more delay? yes. there _ heads. and it would cause more delay? yes. there was - heads. and it would cause more delay? yes. there was a - heads. and it would cause more delay? yes. there was a debatej heads. and it would cause more - delay? yes. there was a debate about whether or not — delay? 121 there was a debate about whether or not london should be locked down, the prime minister met with the mayor of london and they agreed to jointly announce that entertainment, hospitality and retail must close in london on friday for. the prime minister changed his mind and that announcement did not take place in london was not shut down early. the position then by the following weekend, the 21st and 22nd of march, was that time was allowed to see whether or not measures which had been put in place that we could work, whether or not they would be sufficient compliance, and it became apparent over the weekend that from continued social mixing up and down the land continued social mixing up and down the [and those measures were simply not going to work. that is why the lockdown decision was made on the monday. lockdown decision was made on the monda . . lockdown decision was made on the monda . , .., lockdown decision was made on the monda. , ~, monday. yes, ifi recall correctly, a . ain i monday. yes, ifi recall correctly, again i would _ monday. yes, ifi recall correctly, again i would say _ monday. yes, ifi recall correctly, again i would say it _ monday. yes, ifi recall correctly, again i would say it was _ monday. yes, ifi recall correctly, again i would say it was formallyl again i would say it was formally made on the monday but it was pretty clear that we that it was going to happen before. clear that we that it was going to happen before-— clear that we that it was going to ha en before. . happen before. there were meetings on the sunday _ happen before. there were meetings on the sunday and _ happen before. there were meetings on the sunday and the _ happen before. there were meetings on the sunday and the matter - happen before. there were meetings on the sunday and the matter had i happen before. there were meetings on the sunday and the matter had to | on the sunday and the matter had to be formally debated by cabinet. yes. and a cabinet — be formally debated by cabinet. 121 and a cabinet meeting took place on monday. and for all those reasons, mr cummings, monday. and for all those reasons, mrcummings, is monday. and for all those reasons, mr cummings, is that why you say in your statement in effect that had proper preparations been made, had a proper preparations been made, had a proper border and test and trace systems been in place, there may never have been a need for a lockdown, but that it became necessary as the weeks in march moved on to stop the nhs collapsing. is that the nub of it? it is. if there had — is that the nub of it? it is. if there had been _ is that the nub of it? it is. if there had been scaled - is that the nub of it? it is. if there had been scaled up i is that the nub of it? it 1 if there had been scaled up test and try system from january or february, then control over the virus would not have been lost. yes? possibly, but to do it — not have been lost. yes? possibly, but to do it properly _ not have been lost. yes? possibly, but to do it properly you _ not have been lost. yes? possibly, but to do it properly you would i not have been lost. yes? possibly, | but to do it properly you would also need industrial manufacturing and scaling up of rapid tests as well. when i say scaled up i meet a sophisticated scaled up, rapid contact system. and control having been lost, mr cummings, there is obviously an argument that that lockdown, which became necessary to avoid the collapse in the nhs and to prevent death, could have been decided upon earlier than it was two for sure. and it was the way in which the government system, the structure attempted to change direction from the 9th of march onwards and a lack of any planning or preparation for shielding, or any other part of the system that would be required to accommodate a lockdown that a lockdown could not be imposed earlier? yes. lockdown that a lockdown could not be imposed earlier?— lockdown that a lockdown could not be imposed earlier? yes, there was not an operational— be imposed earlier? yes, there was not an operational plan _ be imposed earlier? yes, there was not an operational plan for- be imposed earlier? yes, there was not an operational plan for it - be imposed earlier? yes, there was not an operational plan for it or- not an operational plan for it or are thinking through of what would actually mean. with are thinking through of what would actually mean-— actually mean. with hindsight, mr johnson's view — actually mean. with hindsight, mr johnson's view varied _ actually mean. with hindsight, mr johnson's view varied between, i johnson's view varied between, particularly before he became ill, between concern that the government had overreacted. he was concerned because he said, i have no idea whether covid is killing people, i don't know how many covid deaths are truly additional, did we really have to take those steps? but after he fell very gravely ill and recovered he told you this thing is no joke, thank god we change course, it would have been a catastrophe.— have been a catastrophe. correct. over the course _ have been a catastrophe. correct. over the course of _ have been a catastrophe. correct. over the course of the _ have been a catastrophe. correct. over the course of the month i have been a catastrophe. correct. | over the course of the month after the lockdown the government backed and reared in no small part due to the prime minister himself as to the extent to which the system should be allowed to open up and the extent to which it should be kept controlled. and that debate raged, did not, throughout summer months? yes. and is that the throughout summer months? 121 and is that the time at which you and other members of number ten engaged with mr hancock particularly on the issue of the way in which the testing system was then becoming designed and put into place, the way in which the care home sector was being protected adequately or not, and the way in which steps have been taken to try to get at sufficient quantities of ppe?— taken to try to get at sufficient quantities of ppe? after i came back from having — quantities of ppe? after i came back from having the _ quantities of ppe? after i came back from having the disease _ quantities of ppe? after i came back from having the disease myself- quantities of ppe? after i came backj from having the disease myself from roughly the 30th of april we discussed extensively in the cabinet all of those things, how to build test entries, how to build the infrastructure and ppe and everything else, and how to create a vaccine task force and many dozens of systems. the vaccine task force and many dozens of systems-— of systems. the detail of test the care home _ of systems. the detail of test the care home sector— of systems. the detail of test the care home sector and _ of systems. the detail of test the care home sector and of- of systems. the detail of test the care home sector and of ppe i of systems. the detail of test the care home sector and of ppe are| of systems. the detail of test the i care home sector and of ppe are for later expiration in a later module, so i don't want to go into it in detail. but was around that time that you sent multiple e—mails and whatsapp messages to mrjohnson and others stating that your belief was that you were being misled by mr hancock, misled by the dhse, in relation to assertions as to what was being done to protect the care home sector, what was being done to mmp home sector, what was being done to ramp up testing, and what was being done to get an adequate supplies of ppe? , , ppe? yes, multiple officials includin: ppe? yes, multiple officials including an _ ppe? yes, multiple officials including an excellent i ppe? yes, multiple officials. including an excellent private secretary, alexandra burns, raised officials —— questions with me, that what was being said in the morning meetings about those issues was not accurate and i try to convey this to the pm. to be to him also, as the cabinet secretary did stop could we have 48313, page 16. this cabinet secretary did stop could we have 48313, page 16.— have 48313, page 16. this is an extract from — have 48313, page 16. this is an extract from a _ have 48313, page 16. this is an extract from a letter _ have 48313, page 16. this is an extract from a letter to - have 48313, page 16. this is an extract from a letter to the i have 48313, page 16. this is an i extract from a letter to the inquiry dating the 17th of may. you say that mr hancock is unfit for this job, the incompetence, the constant eyes, the incompetence, the constant eyes, the obsession with the media, still no serious testing in care homes, his uselessness is still killing god knows how many. this morning you, are you addressing this to mr johnson? . are you addressing this to mr johnson?- you _ are you addressing this to mr johnson? yes. you are watching bbc, aolories johnson? yes. you are watching bbc, apologies for — johnson? 121 you are watching bbc, apologies for the cause of language being used in these text messages, this is a live stream coming in from the uk covid inquiry so some coarse language is being used. you need to think about the binning of hancock, there is no way the guy can stay, he has killed dozens and dozens of people, i have seen it. was it around this time on the 15th of may that mr hancock said we try to throw a protective ring around our care homes? yeah, i believe so, you have the date. and was around this time that in number tent there was consideration as to sacking mr hancock? i consideration as to sacking mr hancock? ., ,., ., consideration as to sacking mr hancock? ., ., , ., , consideration as to sacking mr hancock? ., ., , ., hancock? i also had complaints from officials to me. _ hancock? i also had complaints from officials to me, rightly. _ hancock? i also had complaints from officials to me, rightly. the - officials to me, rightly. the cabinet secretary said to me himself the british system does not work if ministers lie at the cabinet table and you have to convey this to the pm. the cabinet secretary was completely right, there was only so much that he could do, this is fundamentally a political matter, and i did what i could. in a whatsapp _ and i did what i could. in a whatsapp on _ and i did what i could. in a whatsapp on the - and i did what i could. in a whatsapp on the 18th i and i did what i could. in a whatsapp on the 18th of i and i did what i could. in a whatsapp on the 18th of april, someone said hancock is quite slippery in all this, in the context of ppe. and on the 20th of april, mark said, i am fast losing confidence in hancock's under. 48313, page 26, on the screen, please. 48313, page 26, on the screen, lease. .,, 48313, page 26, on the screen, lease. ., , please. those were the conversations i was please. those were the conversations i was referring _ please. those were the conversations i was referring to, _ please. those were the conversations i was referring to, but _ please. those were the conversations i was referring to, but it _ please. those were the conversations i was referring to, but it was - please. those were the conversations i was referring to, but it was not i i was referring to, but it was not just an whatsapp, we have face—to—face conversations. ii just an whatsapp, we have face-to-face conversations. if you could scroll _ face-to-face conversations. if you could scroll in, _ face-to-face conversations. if you could scroll in, please. _ face-to-face conversations. if you could scroll in, please. it - face-to-face conversations. if you could scroll in, please. it is i face-to-face conversations. if you could scroll in, please. it is quite | could scroll in, please. it is quite hard to read but you can see in the top third of the page, that change really worries me, it reinforces the fact we need to get a grip on ppe. i am fast losing confidence in his candour. but mr hancock was not sacked. but there was a significant change in downing street because on the 14th of may the prime minister called mark sedwill, the cabinet secretary, into his study and at a meeting attended only by him and borisjohnson, mark sedwill, he was effectively told that his time was up effectively told that his time was up and he ended up staying until september, but that his role as cabinet secretary was effectively over. . . . cabinet secretary was effectively over. , , , ., ., over. yes, this is one of the most disastrous — over. yes, this is one of the most disastrous moments _ over. yes, this is one of the most disastrous moments of— over. yes, this is one of the most disastrous moments of the - over. yes, this is one of the most disastrous moments of the entire| disastrous moments of the entire 2020 because it set off a kind of form across the whole system. i begged the pm not to do it, i knew what would happen and it seems every single hr conversation i had with anybody it was a total disaster. and from a personal level it was very unfair on a mark, but from a government level it kind of kicked off week after week after week of debilitating argument across the system instead of actually rebuilding the system, which is what needed to happen. but rebuilding the system, which is what needed to happen.— needed to happen. but you had, of course, needed to happen. but you had, of course. put — needed to happen. but you had, of course, put poison _ needed to happen. but you had, of course, put poison into _ needed to happen. but you had, of course, put poison into your - course, put poison into your master's you because you have described mark sedwill, you had insulted him, he told the prime minister he was off the pace, he was not up to the job, in a whatsapp on the 14th of march you said to mr johnson, he should be in the office. apologies for that language, this is coming in alive from the inquiry and they are using coarse language. i did, but you have to separate out two fundamental questions. it was my job to convey to the pm that the cabinet office structure, which was the engine for dealing with the crisis like this, had blown up and could not cope. i think i was right in pointing out to him multiple problems. that is completely different from the way in which the pm then tried to handle the whole situation, which obviously should have been handled in a completely different way. the way he handled things with mark and then almost immediately afterwards he did practically identically the same thing with helen just cause absolute chaos. thing with helen “ust cause absolute chaos. �* , ., , , ., ~ chaos. are you implying that mr johnson treated _ chaos. are you implying that mr johnson treated helen - chaos. are you implying that mr. johnson treated helen mcnamara chaos. are you implying that mr- johnson treated helen mcnamara in a way that you would not have done? well, so,... way that you would not have done? well. so.---— way that you would not have done? well, so,... , ., ., ~ well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes. well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes- excuse — well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes- excuse me- _ well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes. excuse me. i— well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes. excuse me. iwould _ well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes. excuse me. iwould like _ well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes. excuse me. i would like you i well, so,... yes or no, mr cummings? yes. excuse me. i would like you to i yes. excuse me. i would like you to listen to the — yes. excuse me. i would like you to listen to the question, _ yes. excuse me. i would like you to listen to the question, please. i listen to the question, please. helen mcnamara and martin reynolds produced a report which identified toxic cultural problems in number ten, people talking overjunior women, sexist, macho culture, and they describe a pretty unpleasant working atmosphere in number ten. had you contributed to the toxic atmosphere, mr cummings? i contributed to... certainly the atmosphere was toxic in all sorts of ways. i contributed to it in the sense of i had said the system is broken and a lot of the people need to be removed and it needs to be rebuilt. this was extremely unpopular with some officials and was extremely unpopular with other officials, in particular martin. there was, i would stress, a lot of support, a lot of very good officials had seen the collapse of the cabinet office up close and there was a lot of support for my view, which was that it needed fundamental root and branch change. my fundamental root and branch change. my question was how you contributed to the toxic atmosphere? is your answer yes?— to the toxic atmosphere? is your answer yes? no, my answer is not es. if answer yes? no, my answer is not yes- if you — answer yes? no, my answer is not yes- if you are — answer yes? no, my answer is not yes. if you are suggesting - answer yes? no, my answer is not yes. if you are suggesting in i answer yes? no, my answer is not yes. if you are suggesting in the i yes. if you are suggesting in the way that you characterise it, no. explaining to the pm and others directly these are the problem is, we can't carry on like this, crucial people need to be removed, here is what is wrong with it, here is how we rebuild it, did that contribute to bad relations? undoubtedly yes with some people. but it was necessary and justified. did with some people. but it was necessary and justified. necessary and “ustified. did you treat necessary and justified. did you treat individuals _ necessary and justified. did you treat individuals in _ necessary and justified. did you treat individuals in downing i necessary and justified. did you i treat individuals in downing street with offence and misogyny, mr cummings?— with offence and misogyny, mr cumminrs? ., , ., ., with offence and misogyny, mr cumminrs? . , ., ., ., cummings? certainly not. can we have 283369, an extract — cummings? certainly not. can we have 283369, an extract from _ cummings? certainly not. can we have 283369, an extract from mr— cummings? certainly not. can we have 283369, an extract from mrjohnson'sl 283369, an extract from mrjohnson's fightback whatsapp group. just to pick up the thread of chronology, if you scroll to the top of the page. we can see that the first whatsapp is 21st august. 2020. mrjohnson says the... we need a plan for the department for education, better minister, reform. there is then some... communication between him and mr cane and you at the bottom of the page. —— mr cain. over the page, page, the bottom of the page. —— mr cain. overthe page, page, please the bottom of the page. —— mr cain. over the page, page, please to page 38. you say this. at 12.20. if i have to come back to

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