E. U. Countries using that coded 19 emergency to clamp down on refugees if they in greece are accused of being more hostile to migrants during the pandemic is another humanitarian crisis in the mediterranean on the way this isnt a story. Hello welcome. Italy and greece of long complained of being overwhelmed by undocumented migrants desperate to get into europe the e. U. Members are the main landing points for refugees and Asylum Seekers crossing the Mediterranean Sea from north africa and the middle east Rights Groups say the coronavirus pandemic has given both countries a chance to crack down on the unwanted visitors the president of the italian island of sicily has banned new arrivals and ordered all Refugee Centers to close by midnight on monday she says its needed to stop the spread of covert 19 but government leaders in rome dismissed the sicilian order as invalid doctors in italy say migrants are linked to only a small number of new corona virus infections i dream of the match. In early march and again in april we sounded the alarm over the influx of immigrants and we were registering we knew what the state services knew its a few weeks later the Central Government predicted about 10000 migrants would be ready to leave sicily view its not. That was the opportune moment for the Central Governments to open a serious dialogue with north african countries in particular tunisia it is not a country at war and it is not among the poorest countries in africa. The greek government is rejecting accusations of secretly expelling more grants Rights Groups and the New York Times say the greek coast guard forced nearly 1100 Asylum Seekers back into turkish waters or leaky life rafts over the past 5 months some coast guards are accused of disabling the engines of some of the boats removing feel and abandoning their passengers on inhabited islands. I. Lets bring in our panel all joining us from greece in Tesla Nikki Neve Ekiti to research at the irish center for human rights one covered the greek migrant expulsions in the greek capital athens all recruiter john a professor at European Studies at Stanford University and elena and also in person nikki rory okeefe he runs the organization cracky which analyzes political and humanitarian policies for aid organizations i welcome to you all and like to begin in thessaloniki with you need. Is this a new european war against refugees or is this all to do with the krona virus pandemic. Well what weve seen since march is a new pattern of pushback whereby Asylum Seekers arriving on a great island in the territorial waters are being expelled at sea based on inflatable life raft and left to drift and this policy which is and violation of international and european has become extraordinarily widespread and in this case although its happening against a backdrop of the coronavirus endemic the greek government have not necessarily in any overt way used the crown of eyes and on it and a pretext because they have not in fact admitted to these practices so lets go to you know rory ok for i mean youre looking at political and humanitarian policies for aid organizations this must be a real concern for them that laws are being broken. Absolutely its concise the difficulty has been released equally that the greek government on to some extent the European Union has passed them on this. Since they were the Opposition Party in greece effectively weaponize the issue of refugees in greece they presented refugees as a threat on tricky to say they have attempted to raise issues to suggest other states such as turkey for example are breaking International Law as an excuse for greece not having to. Fulfill. Their obligations under International Law yet allowing people to enter the country and to apply for asylum of course what happens after that obligation is up to the greek government and the want to use but up a moment people simply been denied the opportunity to ease come country to its national. Is as black and white as gets a suggesting that it is breaking International Law that a it is an effort in effect a war against refugees wanted certain about meant to be a war against refugee is probably practical consequences appear like this we are. A European Union that is committed to principles and values and the human teria self definition of what the European Union stands for is constantly being violated at the borders and a lot of Member States treat greece and cyprus and malta and italy as if its not its the business of the European Union as a whole but if it is the problem of the country is that protect the European Union gordons so if they do their job more or less quietly everyone else doesnt listen to the need for an integrated assignment policy you and therefore they currently seem to make more noise to get their voices heard and to put more pressure on Something Like an integrated approach me thats quite alarming thought isnt it the fact that these european front line states left to fend for themselves as long as theres not too much noise he is just ignoring it yes so what were seeing now the us escalation of border violence is in many ways linked to the structure of the European Unions asylum policy which has been fed faces a disproportionate responsibility on states like greece which have the extent of what im expecting would have the European Union and but rather than just focusing on the lack of policies id also like to highlight the damage that existing policies have done and these are policies which are based primarily on around extend i say shannon and Terence Maria Keefe when these people are forced back on to boats and theyre floating around the agency sometimes that an engine. That must be harrowing for the people inside those boats but its a humanitarian problem that needs to be addressed that doesnt seem to be being addressed. I mean its absolutely a humanitarian problem we already know that people die regularly on that is very involved in 2015 the death of one child for a short while helped to change european attitudes to the problem as a whole but we know he will die unnecessarily and im forcing people back in the fact of free floating tents as he said with our engines on to a vanity free calm but still dangerous stretch of sea is literally risking his peoples lives in terms of. I do think that sometimes there is a tendency to talk about that humanitarian as if its different from the law the law is very very clear that every Single Person who believes they have any reason to do so is entitle to travel to any state they want to reach as long as they apply for asylum when they when they reach that stage thats what International Law says european law has added to my extra bits and pieces but but that doesnt that doesnt nullify the or the original sense so yes a humanitarian sense of it causes people growing great deal of distress literally risked their lives it means that they dont know where to begin again when they arrive back in turkey which is what were talking about from a Group Perspective but fundamentally there is not a difference between the humanitarian approach and what International Law says about the rights of the refugee its interesting that you do bring up the case of a lot of cody the 3 year old boy that you mentioned who washed up on the coast of turkey dead now i want to bring you in the hit after that there was this wave of sympathy for refugees what happened to that what happens that wave of something well in part weve seen any grief at least a constant move towards further securitized nation of policies relating to migration and that has been in particularly thats been particularly evident this year and with the introduction of reform of the if i am not just patient with the International Protection act and recent amendment and made and. The policies that were seeing now are about stepping up returns and about reducing the procedural safeguards as well so that access the right to seek asylum has been severely undermined and continues to be eroded. Refugees of long been used as a Political Tool going back 2 or 3 decades now by various different governments there was an agreement between the European Union and turkey that turkey would house Syrian Refugees within its own border president or the one on a number of occasions has said well im going to open those borders if you dont give me what i want and put pressure on the e. U. There is a real politic hair like me says of securitisation but politicize ation of the refugee crisis as well i mean they are a useful bargaining chip for governments only. Yeah and every government used to has a parliament chip on the one hand because of the bad experience when we look at the case of italy it tried literally everything you could possibly do with a modern nostrum approach several years ago with the left government to save every possible life they could save and then they were left alone and no one in europe took any one of the ones they rescued to the exact opposite of criminalising humanitarian act if a fisherman to rescue someone his boat would be confiscated as the extreme other end of the political spectrum and they learned that it doesnt help no matter what they do to mobilize enough european support for an integrated approach but the integrated approach would need much more than Border Protection or a form of solidarity and burden sharing it would imply also a form of integration of those who managed to come legally to the European Union and also the poor in policy approach of addressing the problems in the countries of origin like the root causes which is much more of security on a Foreign Policy or Development Policy thats our city. Maria kay for the mare of sicily has a point doesnt he that some of these migrants coming in some of these refugees coming in are actually coming in from quite safe countries like tunisia for example and therefore they arent covered by International Law that applies to refugees and Asylum Seekers. Ok 1st of all there is no such thing under International Law as a safe country you are entitled to apply for asylum in another state if you feel that you are being persecuted by your government but is there doesnt have to be a war but it doesnt have to be some kind of persecution of a social group if you feel that there is a good case that you or a member of your family is being persecuted you are entitled to apply for asylum now of course once we come to the point of the country youre applying for asylum within the borders of course our country is allowed to make a decision as to whether or not the country is dangerous book what the Italian Government and in this case the matter assistant use not the Italian Government but what the Italian Government is not entitled to do is say we regard to this youre a safe bet for nobody engine is here is allowed to enter and apply for asylum now one of the reasons that this is. One of the reasons that this is a very serious situation is that we have repeatedly seen refugees come to your opinion from pakistan for example which is not regarded as a dangerous trip state by many european states people are then sent back to pakistan and immediately disappear as far as we know those people have been thats and contacted by police but there are risks to individuals that are not the same as risk in a state as a whole and we do need to be as clear as we possibly can that the individuals right to claim Refugee Status hes not the same as a decoration but a country as a whole is dangerous to everybody there is an interesting case in pakistan and most of the cases that you are talking about having covered parks are quite concerned extensively of my career but there is a case of refugees claiming to be refugees bakshi their economic. Migrants coming from places like pakistan need i just want to say this this is a problem within the country of origin where they should declare themselves to be echoing migrants or is this simply people so desperate theyre getting out any way that they can and they are paying smugglers i mean you know where where do you sit where do you secure these borders well its difficult to to speak about this distinction when were speaking about violations of human rights which apply to all people regardless of their nationality or their migration status European UnionMember States such as greece have in place systems that are designed to according to their own criteria. Decide on the eligibility of asylum against for International Protection. So that is that assessment is not something which takes place at the border or takes place in a matter of hours after people arrived at a decision which has enormous consequences for the lives of individuals and needs to be given share due process to be determined ferengi process will recruit it seems to me that we are talking about some very interesting legal language that the e. U. Needs to abide by and force its members to abide by as well is there a Legal Process here whereby you can put pressure on the e. U. And its Member States to abide by the laws that are already there. One of the e. U. Is a Legal Organization and the reason why it functioned so well for so long is the fact that everyone believes in the rule of law thats sort of the basis of everything but unfortunately its not just either a legal problem or a humanitarian if it would be just a single dimensional one that we could easily find a solution but it is also a question of what decision internal situation in each and every country how much is a government under pressure populist forces that instrumental eyes refugees or the whole fear of what could come with migration and now the combination of we dont know my krenz which in countries that have 99 percent of population being the same ethnicity or no one has ever lived next door to a Foreign Countries like poland or the Czech Republic got far more homogeneous than germany for example a large number of the discourses in these countries of fundamentally different and nobody cares what is the Legal Framework if the government according to the people is not doing the right thing the government will be kicked out of office in the next elections so theres a political problem and thats actually quite crucial the way australia dealt with that refugee problem is they self they say as they set up in some cases offshore. Bases where people could be processed is that one way to go. Do you think. Well again if we are committed to our humanitarian standards its certainly not a solution that has anything to do with hisself i mean commitments its something to have strong allies the problem as we started with fighting a war against refugees to police right wing forces and the country but certainly not taking care of people they need which is the International Commitment that all these countries have signed neither an expert on human rights when it comes to the greek immigrant expulsions what sort of human rights abuses did you see. So these incidents entailed a number of different by the actions of international and european law to begin with they risk by invading the principle of number of oman which is the cornerstone of refugee protection they also because they are explosives which happening to a group today it can also be defined as collective expulsions because the individuals who are arriving in greece to claim asylum have not been given the opportunity to mention stertorous island claims or for any individualized assessment to be made about their own cases its also important is that beyond just looking at these practices and when i Asylum Seekers i have been a teen in a life thats as just a means of pushing back migrants in violation of International Law they also represent a form of torture or inhuman and degrading treatment because he people are more of these like fast suffer extremely while they are at sea before they are transferred to these life rafts they have their press and belongings including about homes and money confiscated and then there theyre simply left to jeff and see often times without any way to make a distress call and theyre just spinning around in circles waiting waiting to be rescued but there. Is a legal issue is that the country is breaking the law there full pressure should be brought to bear on the bill rick you seem to be suggesting that the doesnt have any teeth it. Well the e. U. Has only as much teeth as the Member States shift clearly on a european level and we are talking about something that is essential for the south of mission of a separate state to define what is us and what is that because in a democracy that forms the mosque and if countries have problems or no experience with integrating large numbers of people that are considered to be different then the good of the whole discourse on what is diversity differs greatly when we look at the different Member States this is one of the big problems why the german your presidency right now has such a hard time finding a common denominator or an urgent or needed reform. I mean what were hearing is is very bleak is there anything practically realistically and quickly that can be done so these people now this is an extremely difficult question if i may just go back to previous by ms bhuttos party a couple of times one of the most depressing things actually to happen from a legal or humanitarian perspective in the last 6 months was in february when greece plays its land border with turkey jews who are an ongoing argument between the 2 countries that need a cite comes up to q. E. Well from the argument but when greece did this when greece took this illegal act as a loan to lend the president of the council stood up and described greece as europes shield and actually i would say that yes there is an argument to say that the army has to teach that states allow it to have but at the moment systematically the European Union is cation only openly and certainly by omission backing the breaking of International Law now what i would say is that at all things that can be done i genuinely believe that the majority of people in europe if they are allowed to think about this in. In this light most personal ways are able to see that there are people who need to sit. Or at the very least the peoples human rights should be safeguarded by states all over the world i do feel that there is a situation which the European Union needs to take some action needs to be able to be able to say to the states on its borders ok look it is not reaching an acceptable for you to either break or law breaking law but civil tain you sleep yes and he has to be an agreement right across the European Union every member state needs to be able to is to say to greece spain small to cyprus recently we are able to help you there are the European Union is the richest political bloc ever to have existed realistically in my view and from a Historical Perspective there has never once been a political bloc in a better situation to sensibly deal with a situation where the situation would find a moment but rory its not as if another ori is not as simple as just buying off all the front line states and giving the money and saying you deal with it theyve tried that it didnt work thats so whats that sadly not returning from so what so whats a quick solution to this that doesnt seem to be one does that. I mean in terms of the quick solution if were talking about a magic want no there isnt a magic wand but if were talking about candy is the European Union capable of dealing with the number of people who are arriving at europes borders yes absolutely 8 just quickly maybe we are running out of time but i want to ask you do you think the European Union has lost its moral high ground. I think that there is a furious issue with the silence that weve seen in response to increasing reports of pushback and there are practical steps which the European Union can take if it wants to demonstrate its commitment to international and european law and were still waiting for those steps to be taken over it it does seem to me that the European Union has really a lot of work to do before it can put in a unified policy but these are the refugee crisis the summers coming libya is going to be a jumping off point once again you know where were in the middle of summer rather than libya is a jumping off point but you know this is going to get worse and worse and worse before it gets better right well so far we have been lucky because the numbers stayed relatively low or during the time of the plan damage because it was less attractive to come to europe goes hard by the pun demick but the moments conditions for a migration get that the pressure will increase and that is far more a political one but we also see a lot of improvements that yes that you took millions of refugees since 2015 the Border Protection was improved and negotiations with bordering countries in the mediterranean has been improved restart a come back and discuss with countries a whore and how to improve the situation on the ground so its not that nothing has happened but its still extremely sensitive because it kind of quickly be instrumental lies and this is what governments in the European Union few most. Neavitt me just come to very quickly i mean in terms of like how this crisis again develop in the coming years is going to be difficult but the resources needed to deal with it might not be there given the covert crisis so surely could 19 is an issue when it comes to dealing with this. Well as youve seen the European Union has continued to provide grace with financial and Technical Assistance i can speak only about the immediate instance that that were seeing right now and scenes are not surely not motivated by economic factors. I want to thank all our guests neve keats about brooklyn and rory ok thank you to you for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting a website is there a dot com and for further discussion goes off Facebook Page thats facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter we are at a j inside story for me iran and the whole team here and i know. 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