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That the magnitsky sanctions are, in a sense, imposed by a cosy club of western orientated nations, whereas there s a whole other raft of nations across the world? and, of course, we see it embodied in the reaction to the ukraine war. china, russia, iran, the brics countries, they re all actually deeply sceptical about your talk of sanctions, about a western imposed view of the world and the way it should work. well, so be it. the argument for these human rights sanctions is, of course, that it s not purely western. it s not western to deplore murder, mass murder, genocide, and so forth. they are international treaties, which other countries, even if it s lip service, are bound to pay service to. but don t you, geoffrey robertson, see it as a problem that increasingly in the 21st century, those values you ve just espoused, which i m sure you would like to think of as universal, are in the nature of the international debate coming to be defined ....
Secretary general just a few months ago, across the world, he said, democracy is backsliding. there isn t much room for positivity there, is there? that s true. and to some extent, we have produced a form of, by way of sanctions, punishing the backsliders, the corrupt and the murderers by sanctioning them, but. and that magnitsky sanctions, as they re called, has been an improvement. the targeted sanctions, you mean, against those deemed to be responsible for human rights abuses. absolutely. it has been used in russia, it s been used by the americans and others against chinese officials. it s been used against iranian officials. it s been used by the british government against some kleptocrats, some of those who are believed on reasonable grounds to be guilty of human rights abuses. i see that as an advance, but i see. do you? yes, i do. isn t the problem here ....
On reasonable grounds to be guilty of human rights abuses. i see that as an advance, but i see. do you? yes, i do. isn t the problem here that the magnitsky sanctions are, in a sense, imposed by a cosy club of western orientated nations, whereas there s a whole other raft of nations across the world? and, of course, we see it embodied in the reaction to the ukraine war. china, russia, iran, the brics countries, they re all actually deeply sceptical about your talk of sanctions, about a western imposed view of the world and the way it should work. well, so be it. the argument for these human rights sanctions is, of course, that it s not purely western. it s not western to deplore murder, mass murder, genocide, and so forth. they are international treaties, ....
In, certainly in the west. in the west. ..they are in retreat in many parts of the world. to quote the un secretary general just a few months ago, across the world, he said, democracy is backsliding. there isn t much room for positivity there, is there? that s true. and to some extent, we have produced a form of, by way of sanctions, punishing the backsliders, the corrupt and the murderers by sanctioning them, but. and that magnitsky sanctions, as they re called, has been an improvement. the targeted sanctions, you mean, against those deemed to be responsible for human rights abuses. absolutely. it has been used in russia, it s been used by the americans and others against chinese officials. it s been used against iranian officials. it s been used by the british government against some kleptocrats, some of those who are believed ....
And to some extent, we have produced a form of, by way of sanctions, punishing the backsliders, the corrupt and the murderers by sanctioning them, but. and that magnitsky sanctions, as they re called, has been an improvement. the targeted sanctions, you mean, against those deemed to be responsible for human rights abuses. absolutely. it has been used in russia, it s been used by the americans and others against chinese officials. it s been used against iranian officials. it s been used by the british government against some kleptocrats, some of those who are believed on reasonable grounds to be guilty of human rights abuses. i see that as an advance, but i see. do you? yes, i do. isn t the problem here that the magnitsky sanctions are, in a sense, imposed by a cosy club of western orientated nations, whereas there s a whole other raft of nations ....