there s definitely some advantages to not having to get up at 5am - in the morning to do - the morning media round. i can now have a few more lie ins from now on. - you mean you didn t enjoy that? laughter. bbc more than piers morgan. 0k, well, i suppose it s all relative, isn t it. i mean, how are you, since the prime minister kind of said he didn t require your services any more? i m good. i m treating it as an| enforced sabbatical. it s an opportunity to see my kids more and concentrate on the issues that i care about. so you think you ll be back? i don t know. politics is a winding road. this may be a detour, but who knows? how was the whole process? how exactly does it work, when the prime minister has sort of grim news to impart? um, well, it s a very- boris like conversation,
you, out there as a cabinet minister, you got some pasting from people in your own party and quite a lot of powerful voices outside of government about the reforms that you wanted to press on. you are saying now that the government mustn t let this opportunity slip through theirfingers. you must surely feel a bit sore about it. you are out there defending it, you got rid of the algorithm that was meant to be a part of it but there was controversial stuff that i think, i m pretty sure you believed in at the time. and at the very least, the government has pressed pause. i am a reformer by instinct. i believe you go into politics- to achieve things, and your time in government is always shorter - than you think and you should use it i to try to achieve lasting change, | and housing is one of those areas where you can make a huge difference helping people| onto the housing ladder, l reducing the cost of living, increasing productivity- and helping small businesses. it cuts across all of-
from the set of it before it starts, very meta, very newscast. thanks for your time when you re so busy. cheers, good luck to you. robert, just picking up on that point martin was making at the end there about universal credit and the end of the uplift, given the timing, given what else is happening economically, was it a mistake? i don t think so, but i think it s a very hard decision seeing - what we re now seeing happening in the economy it was obviously a short term i measure introduced for the right reasons at the height of the pandemic, and it had to be retired at some point. i think the question that martin is raising is, - is that the point, or should it have been extended longer. i think those arguments will always be made, i even if the chancellor decided to extend it by another - six months or a year, - it s very difficult in politics to take a benefit away from people. successive governments have felt that. | but not to do so would then make it very hard for any fut
and so i strongly, strongly urge i the prime minister to stick with it. of course, there s always ways l to refine and improve proposals, listen to people s perfectly legitimate concerns, - but don t lose heart because i do think that it s something - that we will regret. rather like social care, - it s one of those fundamental challenges facing the country and a government equipped. with an 80 strong majorityi is in an incredibly fortunate position and should be trying - to tackle those difficult questions. politely, diplomatically, you are basically saying they ve got to crack on with this and not bottle it. yes, that s my view. now you are free to speak your mind and tell us what really goes on, did you witness an absolutely massive cock up at any point that you can tell us about what happened, or is there anything that we have the wrong end of the stick about that sticks in your mind? look, there s lots of cock ups . in government and conspiracies,
is the obvious supply side reform that is out there. successive governments have failed to tackle it. when i was in office, i i was willing to do that. it was difficult. it s always contentious among the most contentious subjects. i think the government would regret i it maybe not at the next electionl i but if we was sat here in 10 15. years time, we would regret not having tackled housing. do you think with the wobbling on it, they are being more cautious than they should be? we don t know yet is the honest answer and michael gove, - my successor, is considering how to proceed~ we have done, in the last year- or two, some of the biggest reforms to the planning system for the past ten or 20 years things like completely reforming the use class orders so you can turn - a hairdresser into a cafe into a home, enabling l people to build upwards, - enabling people to demolish and rebuild derelict properties so we ve done some big things. in the last year or two,