Long quest it's an odyssey right and a lot of things can happen early on that can color your ideas about your own dancing whether you like to dance how you like bands or what kind of thing I like to do what you think is a good dancer client large I think most of us would acknowledge that dancing is a good thing some of us have even known at the end of a day where we didn't have quite enough stops on our feet beds we have been known to dance alone in the living room until we get to 10000 because it's a good way to get your steps up and it feels good it's a robot and it's it's the way our body is really meant to move at times and. It excites certain centers of the brain anyway we've got a big conversation we want to have with you about dancing and about memories of dancing and it's coming up after the. Live from n.p.r. News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying rescuers in northern Thailand appear no closer to deciding when or how to evacuate 13 members of a Junior Soccer team who've been stuck in a flooded underground cave complex for nearly 2 weeks now the group made up of a dozen 11 to 16 year old soccer players plus their coach was found 3 days ago alive and well in a dry cave but anxious to get back to their families Michael Sullivan says Thailand's Navy SEALs and an international group of divers have been struggling to determine the safest and fastest way out the boys are getting stronger every day and appear to be in good spirits of a bit thin they're also getting basic diving lessons in case they have to swim their way out through parts of the cave the remain flooded authorities continue to pump water out of the cave but heavy rain is expected to resume on Saturday and beyond and that could flood the cave complex even more complicating the rescue effort that's Michael Sullivan reporting Secretary of State might been Peo heads to North Korea today in an effort to set a timetable for that country's deep nuclearization N.P.R.'s Jackie Northam reports this trip comes amid increasing doubts about North Korea's willingness to abandon its nuclear weapons program this is Pompei his 1st visit to North Korea since President Truman met with Kim Jong Singapore in mid June Pompei was due to spend a day and a half in the capital Pyongyang to try and reach an agreement about denuclearizing North Korea there were no details about how or when the country would dismantle its nuclear program in a joint statement following the Singapore summit the White House says the u.s. Is making progress in its talks with North Korea but there have been reports that the country has been expanding a building used to make fuel for missiles raising questions about North Korea's willingness to do nuclearize Jackie Northam n.p.r. News Washington to. More people are hospitalized in critical condition in Britain after being exposed to the nerve agent No the chalk it is the same toxin that nearly killed a former Russian spy and his daughter in March in Solsbury the same place where the latest victims were sickened N.P.R.'s Allison Fordham has the latest on this from London following an emergency meeting of high level officials interior minister told lawmakers 2 more people had been poisoned by Novacek near the town of souls bery where a former Russian agent and his daughter were exposed to the nerve agent and nearly died earlier in the year javac blamed Russia for both incidents it is now time that the Russian state comes forward and explains exactly what has gone on members of parliament sought assurances that members of the public would be safe Jahvid in the police do not know how the 2 came into contact with the substance which remains potent for months and can be fatal even in very small quantities Alice Fordham n.p.r. News London this is n.p.r. News. A relentless battle to contain a wildfire is playing out in northern California this hour nearly $3500.00 firefighters have managed to contain 30 percent of the $86000.00 acre County Fire cattle Public Radio's Nadine Sabai has an update Blanca Mercado a cow fire spokesperson says constant hot and dry weather throughout the year is causing fires like these to get out of control and we just know that when we go to work we may not come home for a couple weeks and that's just normal now we're tired of have to accept that the fire is continuing to spread and is expected to worsen this weekend for n.p.r. News I need hundreds of buy in Sacramento the Federal Reserve is releasing minutes of its mid June monetary policy meeting this afternoon Steve Bechler says Fed watchers will be looking for signals of further Fed interest rate hikes when the Fed's policy making Federal Open Market Committee raised the federal funds rate for the 2nd time this year were to suppose projected another 2 hikes in that key short term rate this year with more to follow but the committee was sharply divided on how aggressive the central bank should be in tightening credit and the minutes will be parsed for clues on how soon and how much rates will rise that save back now reporting a private survey reveals that u.s. Businesses added 177000 workers in June the Associated Press is reporting that payroll processor a.d.p. Posts hiring led by employers with more than 50 workers with education health and leisure and hospitality sectors reporting strong gains Dow's up 103 this is n.p.r. Support for n.p.r. Comes from the n.p.r. Wine club every wine comes with the story including n.p.r. Inspired bottles like Weekend Edition cabernet available to adults 21 Years or Older learn more at n.p.r. Wine club a dot org slash radio and Americans for the Arts. Keeps but I. Say Come dance. Come dance to me. Sound to me. In some things I'm listening in play the song every day. On a little slow. Song What is the same. Thing to music. When the band. Well what is dancing but making love set to music and what lovely things we do say when we dance we're going to be talking about dance today with one of our favorite writers one of our favorite guests Henry Alford whose new book is and then we danced of voyage into the groove and when this was 1st proposed when we 1st got the book I just said well we'll do this show and I said do we need any guest except Hadrian who started it but it turns out we we decided to have a few other guests in the 2nd segment you're going to hear another longtime friend of the show David Edelstein joined Henry in a conversation about dancing movies and then at the end of the show you can hear a dance therapist to talk about people who can't dance or won't dance don't ask them. And you'll hear it I say from our producer Jonathan McNichol who does fit into that category so that's all to come but Bill for beginners Yeah let's start with Henry Alford Welcome back to the column McEnroe show Henry hey thanks for having me this book is so much fun and one of the 1st points that you make is that when we're young and we see like and phrase this and as inclusively as possible when we were young we were teenagers or preteens dancing is one of the 1st things that we can do with someone. Toward whom we might have other physical inclinations that are not ready to be acted upon right dancing is a way that we can engage physically with someone we might ultimately be sexually attracted to without necessarily declaring our sexual intentions is that fair yeah Oh totally I think yeah it's for many of us it's our 1st non televisual non parental exposure to the war between the sexes for lack of better words are not always the war I mean there are so many things that go on one of the things I should see this for the Edelsten conversation but I do think one of the things that's feeding away a little bit is that moment in movies of the past although it does happen in the Dark Knight Rises where 2 characters want to speak privately in a public setting and so what they do is they dance they touch dance and there's that notion and it's there when Kristen Bell and Marian could hear our Do It In The Dark Knight Rises that they're having a 5 or station with their mouths they're having a conversation dancing some a conversation they're having while dancing is also. Sort of our herald of things that that might be coming later that are perhaps a little bit more personal and that's sort of that weird idea part of communication and dancing right. Oh absolutely I mean yeah there's there are countless examples of people who either because they're tongue tied or they're up tight or they're thinking too much yeah are just unable to express what's really on their mind but as you know the famed choreographer Martha Graham once said movement never lies so it's really tricky to lie to someone the Had gesture So with that in mind right near the beginning of the book you tell us a little anecdote from your past just to get you in the mood I'm going to give you the music you need to just quickly tell the story. All right take it away Henry Earth Wind fund this 3 elements battling for the destiny of my soul no simply to say that this was the 1st time that I can remember ever actively enjoying dancing was that my friend Carolyn this is the mid seventies I'm about 14 years old. And this girl who I was a name of had bought this record and because at that point in my life I was very anxious to convince myself that I was heterosexual I see where Agard over to her house on my Schwinn banana seated bicycle I had. A bicycle I come with long like 5 inch long tassels and I had I had trimmed them because I thought that would make me look more masculine. So I swear over and Carolyn and I and joined by a 3rd friend all danced to shining star and it was spectacular you know it was totally awkward as all adolescent experience is. And full of you know manufactured squirming and lots of ritual humiliation but it's yeah that is what I pinpoint as the 1st time I ever actually liked dancing dancing can be used for both good and for evil let's do evil 1st. I was not aware of until I read your book was connection of Henry Ford to square dancing which in turn connected to some of Henry Ford's other ideas about life yeah right so he thought that. Sort of the purity of American. Values lay and neighborly ness and part of neighborliness was. Square dancing so he was very active in getting square dancing into the curriculum of public schools in a couple of cities and Michigan and he. Taught or had you know had square dancing taught to a lot of his employees at his own company but yeah the dark underside is at the same time he was you know a real nativist with some very very ill lent anti-Semitism swirling around all of these ideas so not all for good now you know in some ways we've moved into a time when although there are then steps that are popular and dance craze is the need to be learned if you're going to be able to do them it's also increasing the case that you can kind of do things free form but your book takes us on a little journey back to the time you really going to learn dance stops you know it's important to learn it in stops and actually just by chance that Henry last night I was having dinner with a few friends on the 4th of July are a good clue to the granddaughter of this. Seems. To. Me that. So Henry Alford you spend some time talking to the daughter of Arthur Marie Elizabeth Dole who's also been on the show as has her daughter to be make a hole and one thing that I'm going to tell you that you've maybe you might not know is that there that their family includes 2 famous people one of them is Arthur Murray. The other one is Dr Heimlich. Who's also I did know that I did know that because Mrs because Arthur Murray's had twin daughters Phyllis McDowell and chain and Jane married Dr Heimlich so she. Mrs Heimlich right and you are there for your family court of arms is those dance until you choke. So I've used the joke about 8 times so so are there Marie I don't know I mean I don't know many people younger than you and I know who Arthur Murray is maybe you better explain well so at mid century you know in the 1950 s. His name was synonymous with ballroom dancing. That he was he was really it he was one of the most shrewd impresarios ever he really knew that. Dancing is this kind of bash and of social insecurity so figuring that out he positioned his whole company and you know by by then 1900 I think there were 400 of his dance studios all over the country but he knew how to. Try to allay students of their anxieties through dance because he himself you know was a starter or when he was growing up and and dance helped him to gain confidence and he wanted to bring that to other people is very weird because I was having dinner with Gray's do a lot of news is great granddaughter and came home and started reading your book and I thought oh my god. So you know tiny world of Connecticut is basically Mayberry so. I wanted a little bit to about one of these you get into a sort of the politics in the symbolism of dancing you know I thought that one of the most significant aspects of the 8 years stretching from 2009 to 2016 was having it 1st lady who was a remarkably good dancer Michelle Obama would go to you know do these comedy dance routines with Jimmy Fallon or she go and she'd go on some other show and learn a dance step you know with a budget. There and then do it that whole idea of going to get your body moving. Kind of bled into the fact that she was a very comfortable dancer she was you know she was fabulous and you know look at how Hillary Clinton tried to sort of steal a little of that thunder you know just months before the. The the last political election Hillary gets on the radio and says I think we all need a big national dance and Hillary obviously has so many fabulous qualities but the ability to get down is not chief among them although she may be thinking back to happier times in particular to the convention of 1906 which if you recall the this that was the summer of the Macarena and which I would argue is the last truly sweeping crossover dance craze you may contradict me but I mean it was so up in the seats up in the stands of the convention and the delegations and so people were just doing the Macarena all the time any time there was kind of a low it would be played and they would start doing it and then Al Gore you know famously came out on stage and said you know that he what he said I want you to just show you the Al Gore version of the Macarena and he just stood there and then . He said Do you want to see it again. But but that was I don't know has there been anything as as widespread you know I mean the Harlem Shake notwithstanding that has been anything in since 96 that sort of penetrated as deeply as the macaroon Well something that it didn't penetrate quite as deeply but it went. Into various microcosms was the Running Man challenge talked about 16 talked about that yes so that's a couple of New Jersey teenagers start making videos of street dancing to this particular song called My boo the end. Fell in the n.b.a. Pick it up and they start making videos to the same song and for them it's sort of like you know they're flexing muscles or they're trying to psych out the competition but then there really fascinating thing was it gets picked up by the police departments all over the country so the cops start making these running Mand videos and for the family who you know because this is in the midst of the black lives matters movement for them it's totally about brand management you know it's completely about. Yeah we look like you know kind of racist defenders of justice but we're not immune to that Leisure's of precision choreography. Others are going to be offered his new book is and then we danced voyage into the groove so so yeah I mean I think that sort of that cuts both ways I was looking at all kinds of footage today getting ready for our conversation and I went back and looked at Serena Williams doing the crip walk that was in 2012 after a big victory committed in the Olympic tennis and in there's a way in which at that moment she's doing as a black athlete playing tennis which is a game that had has mainly been a white game for most of its history she's kind of Dubai doing the crip are kind of saying we're here you know yeah. Exactly no and people I mean again that's what you know dances can be so freighted with meaning so there she is sending a signal to her tribe and why not so and to that point one of the things you talk about in the book is The cake walk which may have been one of the original dance craze but had quite a bit of political and historic baggage with it right yeah right because it starts out as slaves who are kind of gently mocking their. The plantation owners because it has you the cakewalk has you kicking your legs up in the air like a like a like a very fancy sparkle pony and then the plantation owner seeing how cool it is they start doing it so it's like they're kind of aping their slaves aping themselves so it gets very complicated and me are blind one thing that we don't have to worry about is spoiling this book for people because there's so much in this book and Henry Alford as he typically does as is his custom has thrown himself bodily into a whole series of fairly unwise challenges. So but I just did a General I want to say so one of the things that you have often done over the course of your career is to do something that you have never done before in order to write about it using your own liability is shall we say for comic purposes and you try to provide the way here I just wondered I mean ultimately after you've done all these different things that involves you know really trying to master a about a series about how it moves and trying to be part of a Twyla Tharp thing in which it turns out your part in this Twyla Tharp performance was meant to demonstrate the deterioration from expertise to to to untutored I guess but I mean you've used your body in a lot of ways and you know I could name a whole bunch of other ones did you I don't know was there a net takeaway like a noob or take away from all that something that you sort of learned about all the world that you visited. Well I mean just this idea that anyone can dance I think there is this idea that. You know ideally you are 26 years old and very lively and skinny and you spend 8 hours a day in a dance studio but no I mean some of the most fabulous dancers who I've seen or danced with in the past 5 years while working on this book were over 60 were overweight were people who dance because they have a lot of trauma 1st some for one reason or other. So yeah I just I don't think people should let. Age or situation or body mass you know be an impediment you know one of the little things that jumped out at me in the book was partly because I'm fascinated by you all these people but I think you've got is they're calling up Michael Jackson after he sees the moon walk Isn't that crazy and it's anecdote Yeah he says. Oh I've said I get so excited No I shouldn't be doing. You should be doing. So it's I believe it's 1983 it's the 1st time Michael Jackson ever does the moon walk he does it on a t.v. a Motel on retrospective and Fred Astaire calls him the next day and says Man you really put them on their asses last night you're an angry dancer just like me. Yeah and that's like we don't think of Fred that way and we don't even necessarily think of Michael that way although you go on to point out the Gene Kelly was famously a hot head but yeah and a piano pugilist and Michael Jackson I mean you can see you can get that idea from him just because of the you know because of the setting of the video Thriller et cetera et cetera but Fred Astaire that that was crazy to me that he viewed himself as an angry dancer but there's you know if you read Bryan Siebert spoke he did a big history of tap dance he points out that you know a stair loved thinking of himself as an outlaw that he had a kind of gangster style that beneath all the debonair smooth and as there is this real tendency and desire to like you know kick things off the tables and and not cats off of people and yeah it's just it's the opposite of what we think right I think we're going to grab a break here because this is a good segue to talking about dancing in the movies we're going to Henry Alford right now his book is there and then we danced a voyage into the groove in which he really kind of does a quick tour of the entire world of dance and at times as we said very imprudent things with very interesting results we're going talk more about dance in the movies right after the. Good afternoon you're listening to the call in Mackinaw show here on Connecticut Public Radio where support comes from health dead museum sunken garden Poetry Festival on July 11th featuring current United States poet laureate Tracy k. Smith and musical performance by heart for its own tongue sauce poetry festival tickets at Health dot org The Emerald Asheboro has made its way across the world but it's difficult to know exactly where it is that is actually one of the problems of this insect is helped take to get in until it's fair it threatens the culture of the Penobscot nation to make you never can accept a bit of something that's so ancient So culturally appropriate in our daily lives join us for now from the New England. You're listening this afternoon to in Phoenix a plain white van pulls up to an empty office building. They opened the back and out came the kids and then they just kind of shuffle them in there very quickly and they were kept inside they have those windows blocked out they're not even seen some Miami where immigrant children are helped on the next thing you. Reveal some stamps new note for your own Connecticut Public Radio. We feel I feel the feeling feel. Fisi to Steve b. C. The. Facts are all right we're about to talk about dancing in the movies and we're going to do it with wow I get to my favorite guest on the Sheryl now Henry Alford author of And then we dance the voyage into the groove and David Edelstein probably holds the record for most appearances on this show at this point my friend and also America's greatest living film critic for New York magazine N.P.R.'s Fresh Air for c.b.s. Sunday morning and lots of other things as well so 1st of all David welcome to the conversation that Henry and I have already begun thank you very much I'm enjoying Henry's book as we speak oh it's quite a pleasure to talk so David. I think we'll probably have a conversation that follows our usual pattern which is I will say things and then you'll correct me. But so one day that I would say is I feel like there's sort of 2 epochs in dance in movies and there's the epoch that is. Is defined by Gene Kelly and the Nicholas Brothers and Fred Astaire and Miller and Sid Sharif's we could go on and on in our people kind of dancing better than we ever could. And in a way that is just meant to entertain and excited us and then kind of a modern era of the does include movies like Footloose and Flashdance and Saturday Night Fever and Dirty Dancing and theme you know people dancing Albert Goldman I think talked about Saturday Night Fever being the 1st demonstration of the. Narrowness between the professional and the amateur are really people dancing and they're only kind of better than we are all right so go ahead. It's very interesting though that you all those dancers I mean obviously Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire dance together at several points but they were very different and all those other people you mentioned and you could throw in Busby Berkeley and the people who danced with the sick feel follies there they're very very disparate what connects them is that you know filmmakers had a different idea of shooting dance back then which was just you want to see as much of the bodies as possible and you want to see them move fluidly you don't want to screw it up with too much editing because there's really nothing more miraculous then Fred Astaire seeming to defy gravity or or or Donald O'Connor running up a wall or or I mean that's what that's what we remember when we get to the era of not so much Saturday fever but Flashdance I remember pulling Cale said you know that's not how bodies move that's how Cuisinarts move the you know that what the person who was dancing was was the editor there or you know it really wasn't you know it was Jennifer Beals striking poses and rather clunky leave her stand in doing doing somewhat more vigorous aerobics but it wasn't anything that I that I think of is the answer that I want to think of his dance so I guess maybe the connecting figure would be Bob Fossey But the thing is bonfire c. Is really you know the great example of a a choreographer dancer who is also a director and who kind of knew how to cut by around bodies you know his style is often referred to as Twitch and slink. You know that was sort of his standard move Arlene Croce said you know he had to get. For making his his limitations look like bold artistic choices but whatever the point is he figured out and especially in Cabaret how to edit dance in a way that was exciting you know that you as the cutting in order to kind of drive the beat home in order to to to to sort of viscerally jolt you while you watch these bodies in motion but the people who came after him pleading Rob Marshall who was is sort of like the 3rd rate. Foxy who did Chicago which Fasi originally did on stage they just made a hash of it you know there's nothing more heartbreaking than going to see the film of a chorus line. You know which I saw twice on stage and. Directed by Richard Attenborough and the bodies are all chopped into pieces there's no fluidity there's nothing a lot of people you know criticize the low end on the basis of the fact that for 2 performers they said couldn't dance and that was one of those people you know well like you know 2 beautiful people wearing beautiful clothing and they are and you see their entire bodies it's done in one take to me that was pure joy I don't care if they weren't I don't care if they weren't Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers and grease because they weren't they were beautiful to me they were beautiful and it was absolutely enchanting what they did just because I got bodies that's such a rare thing in a movie these days so you you see more of it on Dancing With The Stars is as crazy as that is I you can one of the best dancing films ever that everybody should see is the. Vendor's 3 d. Film of Pina Bausch dances 3 d. Puts you in the middle of the stage you cannot believe I mean they have the great form now for shooting dance because I want to I want to bring this back over to Henry bridges there who currently is putting his wrist up to his forehead with his fingers spread in his favor Bob Fosse the dance pose but Henry I think another thing that goes on here another thing that goes on in this transition is that loose take Lalo and some of the other stuff out of the picture we go through a period where there's a bunch of movies that are self consciously about dancing so Flashdance Footloose Dirty Dancing these are all movies we're as opposed to stare and Roger's just you know breaking out into some fabulous dance thing in the course of some other plot about a completely different subject these are all movies that are asking the question am I going to dance. It's true and again I think the name Fasi pops up because if you think about cabaret and Chicago his 2 biggest hits. None of the numbers in those in either of those works are people breaking out into song on the street we're always on a stage somehow or we're always watching a production within this production so I think he's sort of responsible for that that whole mad direction well wait a minute I mean you know Also don't forget is that audience is just no longer after the bust of years all those terrible musicals in the sixty's those overblown musicals that nearly sank the studios people just they just couldn't pretend anymore they couldn't they couldn't go with it you needed that Brechtian framing notice I got Brecht in here to kind of you know otherwise they just say well when was that guy dancing why is he why is he breaking out into song dance had to become . Unless it was integrated into the plot like you know me and as and Dirty Dancing . Which which had its own political. Subtext or maybe over text I don't know. And Saturday Night Fever but apart from that yes it dances now gotten more realistic in the sense that it is acknowledged to be dance. As opposed to heightened behavior as unpleasant as opposed to the apotheosis of sex or whatever else we've talked about $100.00 I'm also wondering whether some of the movies we're talking about a lot of them are movies of rebellion you write about this in the book too that dirty dancing in the movie of we're going Footloose obviously a movie. A rebellion Flashdance also to a certain degree right these are. D.n.c. Becomes kind of a placeholder what for a bunch of other things. Yeah that it's a way for even the predator naturally shy and receptive to express themselves because there are a lot of us to. Avoid conflict but if you put us on a dance floor we can kick the you know we can we can. We not have get how to get you away from us and and David I'm also thinking that in a way here spray is an interesting movie because obviously it's not. In the past but it's a movie it's a movie in the show that's kind of about that whole question about the white appropriation of our dance styles and about oh well wait a minute Ok looking about 2 different things here we're talking about John Waters. Which is the hairspray I love which is about the corny Collins show was a version of show that he watched he rushed home from every day to watch to to look at the absurd hairstyles mostly And and that was you know one of the early attempts to integrate you know live live television in the Baltimore area and so it really did and it just fits so beautifully into John Waters is sort of campy squares versus straight as square as versus freak sorry I know we're not supposed to use those words but that's how he always put it because he loved the freaks and so dancing became the ultimate expression of one's freakishness that's a little bit different from Footloose and and fly stance and but it's kind of a great joke that you know it then became this big family news girl that. You know everybody now flocks to and actually John Waters was very disappointed he didn't get a ged before he got a p.g. Henry actually we should say that one of the things you write about is American Bandstand which is kind of the reality one of the realities of that fiction Ramos at a time you're. But American Bandstand kind of an interesting moment where in fact people kind of need to learn a whole new set of dance steps and ways of dancing well and also it nationalized swing dancing that prior to that every. Region or every community even had its own little span on swing dancing but once you put it on television then everyone is taking cues from the same source right but and I also think you know at a certain point but as dancing changed you know television whether it was Dick Clark or whether it was I mean we had versions of it around here like as did Baltimore and then a little bit later shindig and whole of blue and stuff like that you kind of learned dancing pretty much the way Tracy does in Hairspray by watching it on television Yeah right sure you know and that's fascinating to watch and dirty dancing we should point out I mean you know Jennifer Gray was on a dancer and so baby story and that movie is Jennifer Grey story so we'd love to if you you know we love to see someone go through the steps of learning how to dance all right well we're going to have to stop the conversation there but thanks to America's greatest living film critic David Edelstein and to Henry Alford whose book is and then we dance a voyage into the groove if you want to say we have barely scratched the surface of what is in this book so don't feel as though having listened to this you don't need to run out and buy this book obviously you do and I want to say also that coming up we have a really interesting essay about one of our producers John the McNichol about he's one of those guys who won't dance don't ask him I will also talk to an expert in choral phobia which is in fact the true clinical not mere reluctance to dance but fear of dancing all of that is to come so don't leave us. This is Connecticut Public Radio where support comes from Farmer Joe's gardens for generations of responsible farming practices offering a wide variety of farm fresh non g.m.o. Produce minutes off the merits I $91.00 in Wallingford farmer Joe's gardens. Many immigrants say they're anxious and fearful even people in the u.s. Illegally say they feel they could be deported or separated from their kids I'm beginning to worry I wasn't worried before I was angry but right now I'm beginning to worry and I think they're after us I really I'm else the change the toll on Latino Americans at the border crisis this afternoon on All Things Considered from n.p.r. News. All things considered the top to noon from 4. Down in Georgia there's this farm filled with 100 year old pecan trees and millions of pounds of because it's obviously in this country and we don't have much of an appetite for it in shell because the way they do safe ballpark. Don't have a fear of the popular Molly Wood So what do you do if China is your biggest customer that's next time and marketplace. Marketplace this evening 630 here on Connecticut Public Radio. We spend most of our lives 6 degrees from Kevin Bacon but when we dance we are Kevin Bacon did a show is produced by Josh Kevin Bacon and make i own wolf Amanda fish stars and fish dance a remake of Flashdance our intern is Jason a part of Bill Curry was played by Arthur Murray on tomorrow's show the notes visits Mr Rogers' Neighborhood. Now back to college. Thank you Mr and Mrs Smith is the movie that introduced Angelina Jolie to Brad Pitt and Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie to the rest of us you put me in it Jolie and Pitt play Jane and John eventually Mr and Mrs Smith a married couple who also happen to be secretly separately spies. On the night they meet the future Smiths drink. And they dance the story speaks. Of. John's side Brad Pitt's side his level of enthusiasm there as a reaction to injure Lena Jolie asking him to dance he's just this quiet resigned. Identify with that completely dancing is at best a chore The thing I do reluctantly when I feel like I have to which for me probably isn't when Angelina Jolie's asking but I'm not Brad Pitt you know 56 kind of tasty let's say on athletically but that's the thing even Brad Pitt sighs about dancing or at least the characters he plays mind and the characters he plays still look. I don't know presumably probably even smell like Brad Pitt Ok going to test a levels here one of our interns under Ellen and into the world to talk to some other not Brad Pitt type guys do you Dan not publicly because I kind of feel like this is sort of the standard boring guy point of view about dancing right do you dance on occasions where do you do in the comfort of my own I think where you know if you think Sandra didn't really find a guy who don't have to dancing without a qualifier or 3 to another great dancer but you know I'll try you know a couple of drinks I'll try my dancing do you dance Yeah. Yeah well kind of dancing do you tend to do in your own home just kind of awkward bopping around. It's always been my take generally girls women like to dance and men don't but what's that about me you know. To be free. Or put another way from a woman's point of view men don't like to do. And I think that they're so worried that people are looking at them I am absolutely worried that people are looking at me like I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing. Because I mean. Music or something with a beat comes on moving my shaking my. Baby my shoulders go a little to. Do with my legs where did my arms go. This is my wife think of you dancing I think of you. Here 2 feet on the ground and moving your hips probably in a way that feels more dynamic to you actually looks like it from the outside we've been together going on 7 years and we've been dancing together a while longer than that think you think you. Don't think movement is usually the thing I'm trying to suppress with other people around I don't think you're comfortable. Not. Really getting into it any. More. I feel like you're experiencing it. There's like I. Want to share that experience with the same time. You're saying to be really doing this correctly I would. Be totally detached. With my own limbs going in all the wrong directions Yes this is my worst. But here's the real question do you think I'm a bad dancer you know I think you're strained dancer is there a difference between being a bad answer is trained dancer Yeah I don't think anybody is really a bad dancer if they let themselves just go with it if you're enjoying how your body is moving it's not that. I just don't want to call anybody a bad dancer that's reassuring I mean you can look at somebody and go like well they're not and some people are more fluid in their movements and it's more statically pleasing to watch but if somebody is enjoying dancing then it's not bad but there is times that you're someone who's not enjoying dancing then there's a bad explain for the watch and therefore it's bald So you think I'm a bad dancer you know when you're when you're making your restrained motions it can be painful sometimes you just think you need to be more confident and inhibited uninhibited confidence is exactly what I've gotten out of this conversation. To make matters worse and to spoil this tiny plot point for you Brad Pitt's spy assassin John Smith and his reassuringly boring guy reluctance to dance dance or it's all a sham you know. That's our job to make Nicole not the producer of this episode but one of the producers of this show he's talking about a pretty familiar thing I'm going to say it's not familiar to me I'm apparently a girl. I love to dance and I don't care who's looking at me if you mean I'm a good dancer It just means I don't care so joining us to talk a little bit more about this is someone who's written about it and thought about it way more than you have Christina Devereaux board certified dance movement therapist as well as clinical associate professor and program director in the dance movement therapy and counseling program at Drexel University and she has written about something that she. Calls in which I guess is called Coral phobia Christina before we actually get down to the clinical part of this you listen to that essay What did you hear just give me your instant reaction to it actually what I heard Jonathan saying in many many ways as he was communicating to his wife will you accept me as who I am and can I be myself with you and can I find that part of myself as I'm moving the desire for all of us that we all feel to just be who we are is exactly the premise at least in my profession of dance movement therapy which is the start of building a relationship that we start with where the client is which might be withdrawn or uncomfortable or unclear there is a continuum of interest in dance and our own interest in dancing there's lots of forms of expression so it certainly doesn't have to be everyone's form of expression we would encourage people to find that spark in them but there are also parts of dance that could for some people become developed a thing there is something called core phobia which is one of the main categories and specific phobia where an individual experiences a really extreme irrational fear of something that poses little or no actual danger I didn't see this level of fear and Jonathan but there are people that do they get completely uncomfortable can even get distressed of any situation that's associated to dance that can bring on panic attacks or even severe anxiety by the way I would read that where in the case of Jonathan and in most guys who are uncomfortable with dancing and that is a lot of guys I don't think we're going to court over the I think we're looking at somebody who's a little intimidated inhibited trying to do something that really does require an abandonment of some perhaps even most. Inhibitions but a lot of people do deal with that we should point out just from your reading Christina that Jonathan perhaps Mina mistaken harping on Brad Pitt should have picked Johnny Depp right Johnny Depp has got the same problem I mean I certainly can't speak about Johnny Depp's experience but he certainly has communicated in some public forums I think on the elegant generous show that he felt that he was so afraid of dancing that he said during an interview with Ellen I see her dancing more than anything in the world and that he rather swallow a bag of hair than dance and that's a pretty awful experience it sounds like that even Johnny has kind of interpreted I don't think Johnny or Jonathan are alone in their experience of of movement the body is holding all of our emotions vulnerabilities and all of our experiences and memories and memories sometimes could be explicit things that we can recall and sometimes memories are implicit things that we don't necessarily have a words for or can understand why am I feeling this way but it's stored in our soul so much in our body and this is sometimes comes out and fear of movement or fear of showing myself to you it can come from lots of early experiences always might not even be aware of 1st of all I wonder Christina if we're paying a price for the trains ition that was made probably circa 1960 s. From formalized dance to more free form kind of dance and what I mean is that my father grew up in a memoir My father's happened didn't in theater but my father grew up in a world where you learned to dance in the world you learned to do the foxtrot and basic box steps and stuff like that so that when Benny Goodman started playing you know at least it wasn't like a big swing tune where you. Have your act together you could do something and you knew what you were supposed to do and it was formalized enough so that you weren't putting your own impulses on exist. Or anything like that I mean as the sixty's came along and people started to do started to do Boogaloo and want to see stuff like that I wonder if that sort of put us in to shake your ground. It's possible but I would also say that dance has been part of culture ceremony ritual for centuries and people certainly use movement in free form outlets just to be expressive of something celebrate Torrie or even something that brings up sorrow or sadness funerals so we do know that cultural practices and traditions all over the world that dance provides and adaptable sometimes it's difficult for most know that they can elevate mood and it doesn't necessarily mean that it's structured but we do sometimes feel that there might be a certain right way or wrong way to move and I could come from some of the cultural expectation around there is the right way to dance and there is the wrong way to dance but in fact actually it sounds as if in this example Johnson's wife is saying I want you to be yourself and how do we find that right I think also there are some cultural overlays to this and they even exist apparently in outer space I'm going to play a quick clip here this is from Guardians of the galaxy where Starlord the character played by Chris Pratt is talking to. Sal down as a character Camorra and he's trying to explain even what dance is she's not familiar with this idea for a dance. And you know. Really. On my plan. There's a legend about people like to. Use. A great hero. Named Kevin Bacon. Teaches an entire city full of people with sticks up there. But the dancing was. The greatest thing there is. To put the stick up there no that's just cruel the phrase. So Christie you know sticks of their butts is one way of putting it but what we know from that movie too is that there's this cloud of religious repressive overlay right dancing is the devil's work dancing is something that you do to put yourself in a place the distances you from righteousness I mean that's an idea that has crept into the culture and I wonder how much it has to do with some people's reluctance to dance absolutely in some cultures and some religions exactly moving and moving with others can be sinful or wrong and in other cultures moving and moving with others can in lighten you and can bring you to a state of ecstasy there's a New Zealand culture and they do a dance called the cut check and there's a rhythmic sounding that happens that actually brings them into a state of trance so I think we see a whole continuum here of the comfort and the experiences of how our culture has shaped us how our experiences in life perhaps even the communication that's been happening from our loved ones about their own comfort in their own body and their own body expression their own use of the body as a form of expression but it's kind of like like flexing and a new muscle when we start to learn how to use the body not as something to move away from or dance in a particular but something to become a resource for us so we're kind of need to retrain for those that are in an extreme fear States to retrain our brain and our body that moving can elicit different experiences and this does not need to be exaggerated movement or dance steps or particular routines but. Really even working with the body's natural rhythms such as attending to our breath or rocking to the rhythm of music and engaging natural movements of walking or gesturing or changing posture and these can be subtle places that we can start if we're uncomfortable to just start to find that we actually have our own impulse and we actually have our own natural rhythms that start to propel us and move us into our own expression Christina Devereaux we do a whole show about my next question and you devoted a substantial part of your career to my next question. Things that do this in a very succinct way but you know I mean there really are medical benefits to dance and dance your you are a board certified dance movement therapist this is a real thing right it can be used to treat all kinds of conditions absolutely we know through our empirical research that dance can reduce anxiety that it can stimulate memories it can provide a slower opportunity for dementia to take hold it activates our pleasure circuits our Saratoga levels dance can regulate mood it can improve body image there's lots of research that's hocks about dancing integrating several brain functions all at once we have our kinesthetic sense is engaged our relations are moving in relationship with others social connections we have musical and emotional and these further increasing your neural activity and connectivity but if we are in a state of fear and this is important then our body is telling us that we are in a state of risk perhaps when we are not risk so the work to support those that are having real irrational fear of movement is to 1st bring them into a state of safety and then we can start from there with. Building relationships and building connection to our own inner impulse but we can't push somebody to love dancing just because we know what the benefits are we have to start slowly just finding again our own impulse our bodies are ready and the right man start expression dance like no one's looking Christina Devereaux board certified dance movement therapist as well as clinical associate professor and program director in the dance movement therapy and counseling program at Drexel University and someone who has written about choral phobia thanks so much for joining us today thank you very much and it's time alas for us to say goodbye we've got a lot of fun doing the show and thanks to everybody who helped out I had Kyra and Wolf working overtime pulling clips for me Josh delay but this whole thing together and I hope you had as much fun as we did. I won't. I won't. Dance. You've been listening to the Cohen McEnroe show here on Connecticut Public Radio Good afternoon today in Connecticut history is funded by the state historian at Yukon hard for it and c.t. Humanities. Today and 827 officials approved construction of a new state house in New Haven its 3rd such building New Haven and Hartford were dual state capitals from 17012874 the General Assembly alternated sessions between them for 173 years a Tale of 2 Cities today in Connecticut history. One of the best cookbooks I've seen all year just cook it by Food and Wine magazine just in chapel including his chocolate honey roasted peanuts plus wine discovery from Napa Valley and Spain that's on the face Middleton for truth here I Connecticut Public Radio. Listening at 3. Support for the fish noise comes from white cat farm and Carla's pasta This is Connecticut Public Radio w n.p.r. And n.p.r. H.d. One merit and 90.5 The b.p. K t n w p k t h d one Norwich at 89 point one. F.m. 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