modern experience, everything is pued to the side and iam emerges as the sole, solitary possible explanation for why they could be saying what they are saying. and so i think that we need to sort of as you mentioned earlier, i mean ask some different questions. why are these people sayin this. and really mean the question when we ask it. not have a ready made answer, well that is what islam says for them to say. but why really are they saying this. >> rose: inside islam for the hour. coming up. this program was made possible by a grant from the carnegie corporation of new york. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: every story needs a hero we can all root for. who beats the odds and comes out on top. but thissn't just a hollywoostoryline. 's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chases a dream, not jt a dollar. they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. additional funding provided by these funders: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> re: tonight we introduce a charlie rose special edition on islam it is called inside islam, because that is where we go looking for answers. we let muslims speak for themselves. islam is the world's second largest religion. it is the world's fastest growing religion. in the year ahead we will explore its diversity and many voices. there are 1.5 billion muslims. they live in 57 different countries. they speak many different languages and belong to many different cultures. we will examine the debate about whether islam is compatible with liberal democracy. we will ask questions about political islam, its controversies and future. these issuesre increasingly the focus of the world's attention. our series began cairo egypt. i was there in the final moments of the 18 day revolution that brought down the regime of hosni mubarak. in that time, egyptians spoke to me about breaking down barriers of fear and sectianism. >> it wajust this moment ere you i realized that basicay clearly the barrier of fear that has been there for so long was broken. and i think this is one of the most significa outcomes of what we've seen happen so far regardls of, you know, how the political situation develops. this is one thing. the second moment was when mubarak made his first speech addreing the protest that had been going on. and he was a ten minute speech. he made almost no concessions at all. hardly addressed what was going on in the streets and the demands of the people. but the interesting part was how, i was outside on the 6th of october bridge, the demonstrators were still out there. and everybody went quiet. they went to the cars, turned up the radios. and tuned in, listened to every single word of the speech. and right after started to chant that you know down, down with mubarak. it was interesting because normally egyptians don't listen the president speak. i mean they just don't think anything new will come out of it. they have lost any sense of interest. and this was a moment where i felt like they believed they had a stake in what was going to happen. and they had a role to play determining their fate n a way. >> rose: here you have peaceful, powerful, democratic force that people can believe in. >> yes. >> rose: who believe in change and sometimes thought the only place they could find change out of desperation wasomewhere else. >> an image that is totally different from the stereotype of islamist of themselve. >> rose: exactly n the streets too. >> exactly. >> rose: ? joining forces. >> they feel now that for they are distinguishing themselves from talking about terrorist cells or whatever, and then islamist is saying yes, i'm islam. so yesterday i heard on the egyptian government tv one of those people -- the relinl us guy, islamist was saying to the reporter, i came here today following a christian girl shouting and leadin me in the march. and he's proud thatyes, i am saying that. and most of the churchs were guards with no police, with the chaos of police, all the police are collapsing, with islamist people from the muslim brotherhood and others, not only them. but they really participated in protecting the churches. >> rose: we heard concerns that the muslim brotherhood uld hijack egypt's transition. we spoke to one of egypt's most prominent businessmen. since the revolution he foed a political party called the free egyptian party. >> bause my fear as -- my fear that the muslim brotherhood are gog to be the ones who will lead the movement and do this movement and do the coup dethat and take over like iran, you know. and what did we find out? it was the pure, brave, innovative kind, loving, intelligence youth. you know, kids from rich families. kids from the middle class. poor guys, rich guys, everybody was in that square. half of my staff was in the square. and i was laughing. i mean i looked, i walked into my office and it was empty. people went. so it was like, you know, facebo united, the youth to ignite the revolution in egypt. >> rose: what do you worry about the most at this point. >> well, if you lk at the first interview we made together. >> rose: you and me. >> yes. you will fd me that i said that this regime has deprived the secar, the liberals, the armed people to have some political parties to represent them. so the only force that was there always prepared, organized, even militarized is the muslim brotherhood. because they were working undergund, dow understand. and because they were working underground they kept o working. and everybody was decent, secular, liberal, couldn't work underground, were you know, didn't have the facilities a so on. so they didn't. so the force which is today even today which is organized, militarized, well-funded is the muslim brotherhood. >> rose: what is the threat of the muslim brotherhood. >> to manage the hijacking or the kidnapping of the revolution r do you think they can do that? >> i think they started to do that, you know. i think they start to do that. >> rose: you fear the muslim brotherhood. >> i am responsible what i am saying. if you took a sample on january 25 of let's say 1,000 young kids, 1,000 people from the square and on january 25. >> re: right. >> you would find that the -- would have 20% muslim brotherhood youth and 80% i will call them the free youth. the kids made us all look really bad. >> rose: people say the muslim brotherhood doesn't represent more than 10, 15 percent of the people of egypt. >> less, maybe. >> rose: so why do you think they can overtake this revolution. >> i will tell you. an organized 10% is better than an unorganized 60%. >> re: popular unrest continues to sweep across the middle east and north africa as egypt d tunisia transition towardsemocracy, the question remains, what of the models in the muslim world r this process. many have poind to indonesia and turkey. we travel to jakarta, the pital of end knees ya, it is a busy and booming city where modernity rubbed shoulders with tradition. like egypt indonesian over through in a popular revolution 13 years ago. today the country has a vibrant and secular democracy it is an economic success story. many say that it's form of modern islam could be a model for the arab world. >> i spoke with indonesian president. what can we learn from the indonesian experience. >> indonesia is the largest muslim population in the world but we are not an islamic state. we respect diversity through religions and multiculturism. but i have to say at -- it is not to be taken for granted. what we are doing now is the forcof moderation. islam and democracy is compatible in indonesia. that's why we want to be a model that from democracy and modernity can live together in harmony. that's our ideas and our -- on the one hand developing democracy, on the other hand, managing modate attitudes of our muslims. >> rose: is islam in indonesia different, say, than islam say in the middle east? >> well, the teachings of islam is, of course, the same. but i would like to say there are always extremism, extremist groups. we could find that kind of groups anywhere in the world. while were maintaining our force of -- because of the neork of radicalism, we try to check those groups, not to bringing harm to others, not to -- the true teachings of islam, not committing the act of terrorism. so i could say now that islam is islam. but in reality, there are a global networks of terrorism and radicalisms. and if i am talking about networks in indonesia, in the middle east, in southern -- in the philippine and many other places. >> rose: are they connected? >> somewhat they are having connections, one to another. that's why in dealing with radicalism in the region and combatting terrorism we need to work together. end knees ya, malaysi ya, the philippine, thailand, and of course with other countries in other regions. >> some of the people who i know look at indonesia today and say they see or they fear rise in radical terrorism. >> yes. i can see to a certain degree there is an escalation of radicalisms in many countries. probably we could see also that kind of wave that happens in indonesia. but i could say that those groupsre actually small. -- could be yes, the answer. but i believe that we could manage, we could contlhe diffence o radicalists, groups here in indonesia. empowering religious leaders, by insurancing throug education and other means that force of moderatism, so it could be yes buti'm not really worried about the so-called rise of radicalism. >> rose: we also heard from indonesi -- the former medder of tempo magazi. an islamic scholar with liberal views. >> ifndonesia is successful, it will prove what to the world? >> well, it will prove that despite what people say about islam is not ready for democracy, that it is actually can work together. the cthat although we are the largest -- country in theorld, consisting of many islands, that we could live together as one nation and of course the most important is despite the paranoid of having been for more than half decade living under authoritarian re, we could ill learn to live in a democratic society. >> rose: is there a debate today within islamic communy. >> yes, very big debate. >> rose: and tt debate is? >> tha debate is, ones that whether you can go create an islamic state through the current political democratic way, or that democracy is the enemy of islam, it's not an islamic way so you have to topple it through, you know, an undemocratic way. i think there is a dete on that. and then the second underlying debate is if we are in power, should we still be democracy. so more directly into what they callslamic wing. >> rose: and what wod be the role model for that? >> well, this is the problem. because they don't have what we call the practical example in reality. t they wou have like the way when prophet mohammed rule or -- 1400 years ago. >> re: do most people in indonesia consid iran a success? >> only minorities. turkey is much more a mod. >> rose: and turkey is what indonesia would le to be? >> some indonesia is, the justice party look at turkey as a model. but some of the people saying that turkey is not a finished model. it's going to the right model. >> rose: there are people who think this includes the prime minister and others an argument for being in the european union is that turkey can be a bridge to the muslim world. >> yes. >> rose: can indonesia be a bridge to the muslim world. >> well, the problem with the muslim world is to -- maybe indonesia can be a bridge to some muslim society but i doubt it if it is for all muslim societies. for instance, the indonesia mainly sunni muslim, while iran is shiite. >> rose: yeah. >> so not necessar and you know the history of the sunni and -- is quite bloody. >> rose: yes. >> so mayb we could be a model for some like malaia or even brune >> rose: what is the difference in juer of islam and the islamic defen fund? >> i think the biggest difference is in how we approach the relationship between islam and the modern and the current situation. i mean the liberal and the progressive muslim across the world, across the globe tend to see islam as a dynamic -- it's not a static it is dynamic. and the way we understand islam is that islam is not one stop religion, it -- islam is a progressive message. it can, and it's able to respond to the current situation. and that is the difference between us and the fundamentalist the radical, the extraneous and the other side. they tend to see islam as static. >> rose: tt suggests there a differee between islam in indonesia and islam in saudi arabia. >> yes, course. so this, tt is what we lieve as a progressive muslim, that islam at the end of the day islam is coloured pretty much by the local culture as well. so isl is not, you know, a nonhistorical faith it is historical faith. it is coloured by different context where it exists. so when islam come to indonesia it should be and it is coloured by the local situation, the local culture. and we he different type of islam. i think one of the good example is how muslims here treat woman. the idea of segregation -- and doesn't exist in malase culture t doesn't exist at all. >> rose: what is the biggest misconception about islam? >> the biggest misconception is that islam and muslim society are a monolith. one society without diversity in it. think, for example, i think ny people outsideities lamb and outside muslim world are not aware that there is something serious happing within islam society in terms of sole searching. there is a serious muslim -- and that trend, that soul-searching process that taking place in our society is not, you know, it's not known to outside world. people still see isla as, you know, a static entity it is as if islam from -- then there is turkey in the past 15 years, as a political and economic powerhouse in the region and beyond it has done this under the leadership of the prime minister. he heads the religiously conservative justice and development party. a party won an unprecedented third term in office last month. when i went to anchor in istanbul i folk to the prime minister and foreign minister. >> what is it you want turkey to be? >> well, the answer i can give -- is i hav no aim to be a leader for the islamic world and for the regio we don't have -- we want to be a country which is mentioned lik an element of peace in the world. we are a country with a strong history. we are a nation with a strongistory. and we want turkey and the occasion of the 100th anniversary of our republic, we want to prepare our country for the future. we want a competitive country in the world. and we say turkey is ready. the objective is 2023. >> you want to rewrite a new constitution, correct. >> this is what we need them to do. and according to the election results we are going to take the results but it will be a contribution that does not allow extremism. fundamentalism, et cetera, no way. i mean there is no way we can accept such a thing. if our party is favored, it attracts the sympathy of the people. it is n fundamentalists it is not permitting extremism. we are not extreme, right. we areot extreme left. we are right in the cente of turkish politics. we he adopd a central policy. this is our difference. some people said we are rightist, we are not, are not leftist either. we are sitting right at the centre of turkish politics. >> rose: you have auld made the pot that you as an individual were a devout muslim, yes? and that the state would always be secular. how do you protect the secularity of a state? >> just i explained before in a democratic secular social state of law, this secular structure of the state is who is going to protect it. of course people will govern the state. and that's as simple as that. here the issue is the following. all groups of faith are eck which distant to all of the states, all of the delivery. as long as you gaurn tee their faith, this state will be a healthy state. and this is the orinal structure of secularism, the government, the state should be eck which distant to all -- they are all under the protection of the state and th's what we are doing in turkey. and we have no concessions to give on that and we have not done that, whether they are muslim, chrtian, jewi, buddhist or atheist, whatever they are. >> rose: is there a move to play an expanding role i the islamic world. >> not -- in general, in the wod, yes. we are trying to increase, to expan our role in global affairs, in regional affairs. for example, we have a latin american -- we open two new embassies in latin america. and our relation with brazil is geting -- and they are not the same countries. similarly our zero problems with our neighbors. we are -- with syria and iraq and iran as muslim neighbors but we have eight other nonmuslim neighbors, russia, ukraine, georgia, bulgaria, greece, romania, we are developing the same level of strategic relation with all these neighbors. so our foreign policy is not direct to one wrench on or group of countries. we want to have same level of intensified relations with all the countries, including muslim countries. >> rose: do you think turkey can be a model for the future as to how they might develop into a democratic, pluralstic, secular. >> of cour this is our experience. we cannot impose our experience on anyone. but other friends, or nations from the region can get lesson out of these experience. but i can tell y that these autocratic regimes, they have three arguments to legitimize. one argument is they said they have to have an autocratic strong regime because there is a fight against israel. and they are in a situation of war. secondly, they said that if they change in the direction of democracy, a cause may come, democracy m be a cost. they turn their face to western powers a they said if we go in democracy comes, then islamic radicalism may come. but in the case of turkey, democracy did not produce chaos, and did not produce radicalism. demoacy produced stability, economic development, and a much more active foreign policy. >> rose: then we talked to the turkish novellist and nobel laureate. he spoke about the fears that turkey is boming a more religious country today. >> politics is being handled by people who are certainly more devout from previous generation of politicians, no doubt aut that. is country becoming more devout, i can't tell. again, lifestyle in turkey or cultural texture, qualities of rkey is not radically changing. homuch of it is we are geting rich, middle classes who are more traditional and devout, has more visibility and how much of it anxiety about secularism or these parties foreign politics. it's so hard to make a distinction but i think the country is not getting to be more regious. >> a crucial queion looking ahead will be how muslim majority democracies do israel and the palestinian question in the light of the arab spring. we will continue to monor thesdevelopments in e months ahead. many debates about islam in the 21st century are happening toda on american unersity campuses. this spring we traveled to duke university my alma mat never durham, north carolina. the ke islamic study center is one of the nation's top venues for the study of islam and islamic culte. its miion is to tch a generation of leaders who will understand islam's diversity and complexity. we met with mirrium cook, professor of asian and middle east easrn studies and an associate professor of political science. >> i think it's very important to think about islam beyond the religious boundaries. anthat is what we've ted to do her at disc. and that is to think about the way in which islam influences choices people make in particular societies, what we try to do here was to emphasize not only religion and