Transcripts For WKYC Dateline NBC 20161119

You got to fight for whats right. Now a mind bogging new development. Shes facing murder charge herself. They said pam hupp shot somebody. She shot until the gun stopped firing. Now im starting to panic. Are there more twists to come . Three people died suspiciously. You feel like youre in a movie that you cant wake up from. Such a bizarre scheme. Its nuts. Truth is really stranger than fiction. Im lester holt, and this is dateline. Heres keith morrison. Reporter theres a story here in the distant suburbs of st. Louis, missouri. A case so outrageous, so full of surprises, its huh, how to describe it . If it wasnt so serious, it would be almost a skit on a comedy show. If it were a movie, it wouldnt be realistic. Yes. Shocking . Certainly. And more than that. I think its impossible to describe this case in a few words unless its unbelievable or crazy or unprecedented. Reporter so we will tell you the story and, as youll see, the strangestof its crazy twists and bizarre surprises. The woman inside the suv told her that she was a producer for the dateline television show. Reporte the event that first brought us here. The one that happened on a cold winters night 2011. It was a 911 call. 9 40 p. M. , december 22nd. What is the location of your emergency . I need you to take a couple deep breaths so i can see whats going on. I just got home from a friends house and and my wife my wife phone was hysterical. What is her name . Her name is betsy. Betsy . Yes. Reporter betsy faria. And the crying you can hear is her husband, russ. Oh, my god, no. Russell, do you think that shes beyond help right now . I think shes dead. Okay. Oh, my god. Shes gone. Reporter betsy faria was dead and gone at just 42. This, the event from which all else flows, the old allegation and the very new ones. Of sex and secrets and lies and wild recovered memories. And that Something Else so devious, so cruel. Who would think of such a thing . But first, you need to know little sister to mary rodgers and julie sweeney. Betsy was the most outgoing and the most social. Reporter kind of gregarious, right . Gregarious is a great word for her. Very colorful, very lively. Shes with an individual. You couldnt tell her no. She did what she wanted to do. She started deejaying at the age of i think she was 18 maybe younger than that. Reporter wow. She could start up a party. She was in her element when she was out there. She could get anybody on the dance floor. Whether they wanted to or not. Reporter betsy was a single mother of two daughters, leah and mariah, when she met russ. He seemed just about perfect for her. Funny, outgoing, big heart says russ cousin. Hes a happy person. Hes a jokester. You never seen him without him laughing. Reporter and, said russ, she was the perfect woman for him. She encouraged me to go back to school and get my degree, money, things like that. Which i probably wouldnt have done had she not come along. Reporter when russ met betsy, her daughters were very young. Mariah still a tiny girl. We really created a big bond, and leah, you know, bonded with me as well. Reporter betsy and russ got married in january 2000. And, like many couples, they had good times and then less good times. For more than a year, they actually lived apart. We argued a lot, you know. Its as reporter then betsy told him shed found a church that meant a lot to her. Maybe hed like to come. The first week we went there, they were starting a series on marriage. Which was kind of like an omen. Reporter that, said russ, is when their marriage got better again. You know, we kind of refell in love with one another. Reporter but life will have its way with a person, like it or not. Betsy found out she had breast christmas of 2009 she told us that she thought she had it and it was diagnosed in january 2010. Thats when she had her mastectomy. Went through a lot of cry kg, a lot of heartache, you know, and just a lot of hard time, but we kept our faith and we kept praying. And she handled it with such grace. She just amazed the millions of people that she knows. She was involved in tennis. She just continued playing tennis. Youd never know she was going through chemo. Reporter and maybe that helped her beat it. In the winter of 2011, betsys doctor told her the cancer was in remission. So she and russ decided to celebrate. They organized a caribbean cruise, invited their friends and family to come along. And then she thinks im free and clear, and then this bomb gets dropped on her. It was inoperable. It was too far in her liver that they couldnt take it out. Reporter she had, with luck, three to five years, perhaps less. So what did russ and betsy do . They went on that cruise anyway, took their whole gang with them. Betsy got to swim with the dolphins, a dream shed had for years. Just seeing how happy she was made me happy. She told everybody that this was a second honeymoon for them. She said it was the best thing that happened. They had the best sex that they could ever have while they were on this cruise. Reporter but then a few weeks later betsy was dead b you it certainly wasnt the cancer that killed her. How did betsy die . When we return. My wife killed herself. Her husband had one idea, but investigators had another. Its not typical for someone to do it by the way that she done it. And thats what concerns us. And your true love. Presenting the ever us twostone diamond collection. New rings, necklaces, earrings and bracelets. One diamond for your best friend. One diamond for your true love. Ever us. Available at kay, jared and zales. pop campbells tomato soup and grilled cheese. more popping go together like being late and being grounded. Made for real, real life. . Man, im glad aflac pays cash. Aflac isnt Major Medical enough . No whos gonna help cover the holes in their plans . 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Reporter my wife killed russell, i need you to calm down, honey, okay . I need you to calm down and take a couple of deep breaths. Were going to get somebody on the way there, okay . Reporter there was the town of troy, about an hour from st. Louis. Between his sobs, russ told the operator hed returned home from an evening with friends to find his wife betsy dead on the living room floor. And he said it looked like she committed suicide. What did she do, do you know . Shes got a knife in her neck. Reporter much later russ said something clicked when he saw her lying there. Well, she talked about it years before and actually tried it once or twice. Reporter and when you came in i saw slices on her arms and that was the first thing that just registered in my mind. Reporter early next morning betsys mother janet meyer got a knock on the door. Officers standing there on her at me and said, betsys dead. And i said, well, how could she be dead . She just here last night. Reporter officers went to sister julies house. They said it was a possible suicide. I looked at her and kind of gave her this look like i dont think that sounds right. Reporter thing is, by the time police offered that suicide suggestion to betsys family, they already knew the death of even possible. First responders could tell right away. And the medical Examiners Office found betsys body had been pierced many, many times including wounds most likely inflicted after she was already dead. Hardly surprising then that police might be casting around for suspects or that russ the husband, the man who supposedly discovered the body, had some explaining to do. So that night at the sheriffs department, getting him to focus was not an easy thing. God. But i think youre the only one that can help us with this right now. I dont know what to do. Reporter but investigators had a job to do find betsys killer. And they thought it might be russ who was incredibly emotional. Was he acting . Was this florid grief actually real . Whatever it was, russ seemed to be sticking with the suicide story. What do you think happened to betsy . It look like she killed herself. Reporter but did he really not know about all those other stab wounds . And Something Else. Betsys body was cold and stiff when the First Responders arrived. Rigor mortis had already set in, the blood was drying. Based on that, it appeared that betsy had been dead for some time when russ called 911. So detectives zeroed in on betsy and russ movements. Reporter russ said betsy had a chemo appointment that afternoon, planning to go to her moms house afterwards, then russ would drive her home. At least that was the arrangement. But when he called betsy some time after 5 00 p. M. I asked her if she needed a ride on my way home. And she said, no, that her friend was going to bring her home. And i said, okay. And she said she had something to talk to me about. And i said, well, is it good or bad . She said, well, its good. Dont worry. Sa at home later and i love you. And that was the last time i talked to her. Reporter after that, said russ, he ran some errands and then at 6 00, as he almost always did tuesday evening, he arrived at a friends house where a small group gathered for what they called their game night. We go over there and tuesday nights and usually we play games. But that particular night, my friend had gotten a couple of movies, and so we decided to watch movies instead. Said, stopped for a couple of sandwiches a t a local arbys drivethrough, then drove the 30 minutes back to his house in troy, which would have put him there about 9 40 p. M. He said he walked through the unlocked front door all unsuspecting, and then i was taking my jacket off and calling her betsy. And then i seen her there on the floor. Reporter will you ever forget what that was like coming into the house and see that . I see it every time i close my eyes. I fell down there by her and arm. And then i saw a knife in her neck. Reporter and that, said russ, is all he saw. So it looked to him like shed done it herself deliberately. And it comes back to this idea who may have harmed betsy . No. Everybody loves betsy. She was a positive soul. She always brought smiles to time. She made me so produce. Its not typical for someone thats going to commit suicide to do it by the way that she done it. And thats what concerns us. Reporter so it did. It always made russ the prime suspect. Coming up russ and betsys relationship. They shared that romantic cruise, but a friend of betsys is about to share Something Else. He started playing this game face. This is what its going to feel like when you die. Well this heres a loadbearing wall. Well go ahead and rip that out. Its going to cause a lot of problems. Totally unnecessary and it triples the budget. Wouldnt it be great if everyone said what they meant . The citi . Double cash card does. Earn 1 cash back when you buy, and 1 as you pay. Double means double. . . Dont let the food you eat during the day haunt you at night. Nexium 24hr. Shuts down your stomachs active acid pumps. To stop the burn of frequent heartburn. All day and night. Hem before . Not long after russ faria found his wife dead, the police took him in for a long night of questions and a polygraph test the following afternoon. Though, said russ, when he saw the machine honestly, i dont even know if the thing was on or not. Reporter but after it . So he must have done it, they said. Time for him to confess. The fact of the matter is you stabbed betsy. No, i did not. I wasnt even there. Russ, you were there. No. I found her like that when i came home. Reporter russ denied it again and again. I did not do this. Reporter but investigators didnt buy it. Why . In large part because of her. This womans name youll be hearing it a lot is pam hupp. Pam is married, has kids. Shed been palling around with betsy for a couple of years. But theyd known each other quite a bit longer. Met when betsy trained pam in the insurance business. Pam was the friend who drove betsy home from her mothers the evening she was murdered. In fact, she told detectives she had a lot of things to say about russ including what sounded like a big fat motive. Money. He makes comments about how much money hell have after shes gone because hes got this is what she said. I dont know for sure. Ive never seen their financials. But hes got Life Insurance on her at work. Shes got Life Insurance. Reporter but that wasnt russ only motive, said pam. There was friction in the marriage and anger. Betsy confided in her at said she was going to tell russ they ought to move out of their suburban house and live with betsys family. Theyd save money that way and be closer for her chemo treatments. But, pam told those officers, betsy was afraid of how russ would react. She go, okay, well ill tell him but im telling you right now hes going to get very angry. Reporter why . She said hes tired of house and thats it. She was going approach him . When he got home. Reporter they confronted him with the information that pam gave them about betsys idea and her fear. She never mentioned that to me. Well that was the news she wanted to share with you when you got home. I never got a chance to hear it. The first time i heard about it was when you told me. Reporter investigators didnt believe that. Especially when they heard the bombshell pam laid on them. A disturbing game pam he started playing this game of putting a pillow over her face to see what it would feel like i dont know if she said, this is what its going to feel like when you die or whatever and then act like he was kidding. She was very upset. Did she sound scared in. Oh, yeah. Reporter they took that accusation to russ, too . Why would her friends tell the police that that you had done that and that she was scared . She had no reason to be shed never been scared of me. Reporter after they heard from pam hupp, investigators considered the evidence they found at the crime scene, though betsy was killed in the living room, they found her blood on a light switch in the master bedroom. And on a pair of russ slippers stashed in a bedroom closet. The fact of the matter is its a sloppy crime scene, theres blood on your clothes, in your residence, in your bedroom. I didnt even go to my bedroom. Reporter tco russ with the horrifying fact that betsy had been stabbed over and over and over again. Many, many times. Your wife was stabbed over 25 times. Oh, my god. No. 25 times. Theyre still counting. Oh, my god. A burglar doesnt do that, russ. A stranger doesnt do that. Somebody who loves that person does that. Somebody who goes into a blind rage does that. Reporter pam said betsy was this murder, said the cops, looked like rage and looked like russ. Theres no one else that has any kind of motive monetary or crime of passion. I cant tell you what i dont know. I dont know. There was never a focus on anybody else. Reporter it was the day after the murder that russ cousin mary heard that betsy was dead and that husband was being questioned. And that didnt make sense to her. Shed seen betsy and russ just a everything seemed fine then. Betsy was laughing and happy. She was even saving him a spot on the couch. Like here, babe, you can sit next to me. Reporter mary was so sure russ would not, could not have killed betsy, she set out to defend him any way she could. But by the time investigators released russ 48 hours after he was first brought in for questioning, the story was all over the local media. And boy, this case has really been taking a lot of turns today. Though she said shed been close, very close to russ, remembered a few things that stuck out now like a sore thumb. He told a friend of mines husband that if he got into a pit with somebody, he would fight to kill. Reporter so when officers told her about all those stab wounds . When they said that, i didnt have any doubt in my mind. I never thought it could be anybody else but russ when they told me that. Reporter the investigators were thinking it, too. Reasons to think russ didnt kill his wife. But whats the old expression . A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth gets its pants on. So true. So true. Coming up what sounds like a slam dunk alibi from russ game night buddies. We knew that he could not have committed this crime. At the same time. And later another puzzling death. There was a person shot. And guess who police say is behind it . 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Reporter but russ family felt like theyd dropped down a rabbit hole. It didnt make any sense. They were very happy. And they were planning a trip to florida, and it was going to be in march. Hes like if thats what you want to do, you plan it. Well make it happen. Reporter cousin mary saw russ grief up close. He was heartbroken. And he kept saying how bad it hurt because he lost his betsy. That was the most heartwrenching thing to see. Betsy. And russ . He broke down, just talking to her all by himself, just him at the casket. And he fell to the ground. He was a broken man. It was hard. It was very hard. But it was really nice to see how many people that she touched and that came. Reporter but remember that story pam hupp told the detective about russ putting a pillow over betsys face and telling her thats what death would russ have done such a thing . No. Now, would russ pull a cover over her head and fart underneath it and Say Something like that . Yes, he would. Reporter because he was a jokester . That he would do, yes. But would he put a pillow over her face and do that . Absolutely not. Reporter but, of course, that was the opinion of a woman who was vep in russ corner. So maybe you take it with a grain of salt. Was there ever. The kind they call air tight. Remember that game night russ said he attended between 6 00 and 9 00 p. M. The night betsy was murdered . This is michael corbin, the host of game night. A few of his friends had been coming by tuesday nights for years. Essentially, its a way where we can all get together, be sociable and not really spend any money. Reporter that particular tuesday night, mike said, russ and the others watched movies together. And everyone left at 9 00 p. M. As usual. And his girlfriend angie got a surprise. Got a knock on the door, which is instantly odd, about 6 00 or maybe a little before. The police more or less invite themselves in and start asking us a whole lot of questions about what happened last night. Was russell here last night . Was he drinking anything . Was he acting strangely . Reporter then three days later there was another Early Morning knock at the door. They took angie in one car, questioned us separately or interrogated us. Ill put it that way. Reporter the two others at mikes house that night were also picked up and questioned separately. They all said the very same thing, russ arrived around 6 00, they watched movies. And we were all within eight feet of each other the whole night. Reporter did he act the same as usual . Yeah. He dozed off at one point. I didnt think anything weird of this. Reporter nor was it simply the unsupported story of some friends. A surveillance camera showed russ stopped for gas just af 5 15 p. M. More videos and receipts when he stopped to buy cigarettes and dog food, a couple of iced teas. How are you doing . Reporter on the way to game night before 6 00 p. M. Russ cell phone pinged in those areas, too, and all evening, from 6 00 to 9 00 p. M. Near mikes house. And the receipt from his trip to the arbys drivethru was timestamped 9 09 p. M. Would take, with that stop at arbys, about 35, 40 minutes, putting him at home just about the time he called 911. Once we heard the timeline, we knew that he could not have committed this crime. Reporter impossible. Impossible. A man cannot be in two places at the same time. Reporter but detectives . Not persuaded. Not at all. After all, they had pam hupps story. And what they said was russ failed polygraph. And her blood on his slippers. And it wasnt long after betsy was killed that Russell Faria was arrested for the murder of his wife. Coming up some say investigators may have blown it by focusing only on russ because its somebody else who got the payout from betsys 150,000 Life Insurance policy. Uhhhh, eh. Theres a rabbit behind me, isnt there . Just a few. Last chance to get your coupon, spend 75 in store, and get a 10 gift card to use in december. Russ faria went on trial for murder in november 2013. Betsy had been dead almost two years by then. I dont know what to do. Reporter prosecutor leah russell, do you think shes beyond help right now . I think shes dead. Reporter that hysteria, recorded at 9 40 p. M. Was part of a careful cold blooded plan said prosecutor askey. Russ claim that betsy killed herself an obvious lie, she said. Askey put pam hupp on the stand, and pam repeated the stories she told the police. And the prosecutor showed the jury the bloody slippers bedroom light switch. Could only have been russ, she said. That socalled air tight alibi . An elaborate plan to throw off the cops, said the prosecutor, who laid out this theory to the jury. Russ knew he was going to kill betsy, so he intentionally appeared on those surveillance cameras. And the friends who said he was with them all evening actually helped him carry out the crime. She said, not just by lying for him, but also by keeping his then, she said, they took his phone to his house and picked up an arbys receipt for him on the way at 9 09 p. M. Just to cover for him. There is absolutely no evidence that we did anything wrong that night. There never will be because it didnt happen. Reporter it didnt happen, thats just what russ defense attorney, joel schwartz, argued. In my opinion, an innocent man got charged with murder. And then it sort of snowballed from there. Reporter the idea that russ 911 call was an act . It sounded like a man whose wife was dead and he was grieving tremendously. However, he was doing his best to answer the questions when asked in order to help the 911 operator and to help the police solve this. Reporter the reason russ said she killed herself . Her wrist was slit deeply and the knife was in her neck. Although there was 56 wounds, those were the only two visible to the naked eye. I think the person calling this somebody who had no idea. Reporter crime of passion . Hardly, he said. Many of betsys wounds appeared to have been methodically and deliberately made after she was dead to make it look like a crime of passion. Theres no other explanation for the lack of blood and theres no other explanation for the deep cut on her wrist thats postmortem. Reporter and the blood evidence on russ slippers . There was no imprint of a shoe in the blood, nor was there tile floor leading back to where the slippers were found. Reporter so how would the blood get on the shoes . Somebody attempted to stage this. Reporter dipped it in the blood . Dipped it in the blood and hid those back in the closet. Reporter somebody, figured schwartz, was trying to frame russ. He had an idea who it might be, too. Pam hupp. Pam, remember, drove betsy home that night, dropped her off just before the time betsy is thought to have been killed. Schwartz read pams statements kept changing her story. That she said goodbye to betsy, that she didnt say goodbye and so on. She may have still been on the couch, but today it makes sense that she walked me to the door. Reporter pam also made a call to betsys cell phone. 7 27 p. M. It went unanswered. How did pam explain that call to the police . Initially she stated, i called to let her know i was home safe. Reporter home . Not possible, said schwartz. Pam lived a half hours drive away from betsys house. But where actually was she, based on the cell tower triangulation . The cell tower triangulation showed that she had not gotten more than, at the very most, about three miles from the house. At the very least, she was still at the house. Reporter that is, still at or near betsys house right around the time of the murder. But the biggest question, to because just four days before the murder, someone, supposedly betsy, made pam the beneficiary of betsys 150,000 Life Insurance policy. And she got the money . She got the money. Reporter pam told investigators betsy wanted her to get the money to make sure her daughters got what they needed. But heres the thing, pam and betsy had both worked in Life Insurance. Betsy knew intimately how to write or change a policy and make it specific for her da witnessed at her own insurance office. Instead, they went to a local library and had a 23yearold librarian, not a notary, witness betsys signature on the change of beneficiary form. The whole thing seemed very fishy to schwartz. I believe that betsy was conned in some way, shape or form into signing this policy without believing it would ever Insurance Company. Which is why she never told anybody including her own mother and her own sisters who she was very close with. Reporter but the lead detective told the Insurance Company pam was not a suspect, and so the company cut her the check. Much later that same lead detective was preparing pam to testify at russ trial and she made some curious statements about money. To me, in my world, 150,000 is not that much. Reporter no, said pam, if she wanted to profit from much easier and more lucrative thing she could do. And if i really hate to say it wanted money, my moms worth half a million that i get when she dies. And i know that sounds really morbid and stuff like that, but i am a Life Insurance person. But if i really wanted money, there was an easier way than trying to combat somebody thats physically stronger than me, im just saying. Reporter but the fact was, pam got betsys insurance money, trial. Because youre one of the last people to see betsy. You get this money given to you. Theyre going to suggest that you may have had something to do with the planning or the conspiracy to commit that murder because of your financial windfall. Reporter and, Something Else. What youre originally telling investigators is that she wanted you to do this to try to take care of, make sure the kids are taken care of because theyre afraid russ, shes afraid russ and the kids will however, you now have this money and have not turned any of this money over to the family or the kids. Thats correct. Thats a huge problem. Reporter to make it look like less of a problem, he said, pam should set up a trust for betsys daughters. And soon, before the trial. Then the detective prepared pam for the key question he expected the defense to ask. Did you have anything to do with betsys murder . No, absolutely not. Thats exactly whats going to be asked of you. Reporter and indeed, at the trial, attorney schwartz told pam hupp about all those things. But the judge said no. He could not ask pam about any of that because, said the judge, there was no direct connection between pam and the murder. Schwartz was incredulous. In the 25 years ive been practicing law, ive never a witness testifies. You can crossexamine the witness. Thats a basic tenet of law. Their bias, their interest. The fact that they are l person with the victim. The fact that they just recently were given the victims insurance under who knows what pretenses. The fact that they lied about going in the house. The fact that they lied about where they were when they called the victim after being in the house. And i couldnt get into any of that. Ive never seen anything like it. Reporter the jury didnt hear a word of schwartzs evidence about pam. They reached their verdict about russ in 4 1 2 hours. It was devastating. But i was trying my best to hold it together because my familys behind me there. You know. And i can hear them crying. The worst part of it was look at russ face. He was in shock. He couldnt believe it. And i havent lost sleep in a long time over something in this business. And i lost sleep for a long time. Reporter two days before christmas, 2013, russ faria was sentenced to life in prison for the murder of his wife, betsy. Soon after, betsys mother and sisters expressed their relief. If somebody were to come to you with evidence, strong evidence that it wasnt russ but it was some other person, is that something that you could accept . I would still feel its russ, 100 . Reporter which, was just what pam hupp was saying, too, wasnt it . But the end . Oh, no. Now it was just getting a bold move from russ farias attorney. We had what i know to be an innocent man sitting in prison. So i was willing to take any shot. And a bombshell from pam hupp. She revealed for first time that she and betsy had had an intimate relationship. Had an intimate relationship. This weekend at kohls its time to get ready for the holidays so deck the halls dress to impress for the School Concert then hurry home to cozy up for a family movie night. At kohls, friends and family save kohls. Wait hurry up come on . Whoa what are you looking at . Crazy its a Virtual Reality world. Can i see . Oh yai yai yai yai yai yai. . Will we be able to see the whole park . Yeah, its 360. Look, it goes all the way around. Hold on, moms calling. Hey, mom. Where are you guys . Well be back soon. Love you, bye mom. Love you, mom bye mom. Hey, guys . This weekend at kohls its time to get ready for the holidays so deck the halls dress to impress for the School Concert then hurry home to cozy up for a family movie night. At kohls, friends and family save a little more with an extra 20 off so you can give a little more this holiday. Kohls. There is no typical day. Theres nothing typical about making movies. Im victoria alonso and im an executive producer at marvel studios. We are very much hands on producers. If my office becomes a plane or an airport the surface pro you dont do 14 hours a day 7 days a week for decades if you dont feel it in your heart. Listen i know my super power is to not ever sleep. Russ faria was in prison for life. A situation his lawyer, joel schwartz, could not abide. So schwartz followed the money like that Life Insurance payout to pam hupp, the one pam said was intended for betsys daughters. And what do you know . Miss hupp had funded a trust in the name of the kids approximately five days prior to the commencement of trial. About ten days after trial had concluded, the trust was defunded over 99. 7 of what had been placed in there. Reporter which looked to schwartz an awful lot like a scam, like pam wanted to keep i never doubted that that was her motive in the first place. So nothing surprised me. However, that in and of itself is something that the court of appeals needed to hear about. Reporter so schwartz filed an unusual shortcut motion asking for a hearing to consider the new evidence of what pam did with the insurance money. We thought the likelihood of success was very small. However, we had what i know to be an innocent man sitting in prison. So i was willing to take any shot. Reporter and what a surprise. In february, 2015, his motion was approved. He would get a hearing. Its incredibly rare, having happened only three times previously in the state of missouri. Reporter ever . Ever. Reporter a few months later, a week before that special hearing, prosecutor leah askey met with pam hupp. Their conversation was recorded. Making the judge believe us . Reporter askey replied that she was confident the outcome would be in her favor, and that the whole thing was a waste of her time and taxpayer money. If fact, askey suggested the only reason for the special hearing was joel schwartzs bruised ego. Pam agreed. Id be happy to take him on again. I mean, im not that i ive also got another 3,000 cases that need my attention. Why keep redoing them . Right. Just because somebody got their, you know, feelings hurt because they lost. Schwartz isnt used to losing. Right. And so thats really what its about, in my opinion thats what its about. So to me, its doing a disservice to the taxpayers and citizens here. Reporter a week later, on a june morning in 2015, a year and a half after russ was convicted of murder, everyone assembled in he would decide, hurt feelings or injustice . It didnt take long. The judge ruled to overturn russ conviction due to pams handling of the insurance money. Russ would get a new trial. It was one of the best moments of my life. Finally, something good in my reporter russ was released on bond. Heres to russ Freedom Forever baby reporter and celebrated with friends and family, but the state didnt lollygag about in idle contemplation. Prosecutor leah askey and her detectives reinvestigated the case and found new material from guess who . Pam hupp. Who talked to detectives soon after russ got out. Pam hupp from ofallon, missouri. Secret, something very surprising indeed. She revealed for the first time that she and betsy had had an intimate relationship. Reporter Robert Patrick of the st. Louis postdispatch was as surprised as we were when pam said as russ and betsys relationship kind of deteriorated, pam took kind of a surrogate role as as partner. It wasnt intimate initially, but after the cancer diagnosis, pam thought that the least that she could do for her friend was to sort of give into this intimacy that betsy wanted. I mean, we just spent a whole lot of time together, you know, and i did, i replaced what a husband would be. Its honestly a relationship with two women who really arent attracted to women. I dont know how to explain that. Its not like she was a lesbian or anything. It wasnt like that. Emotional trauma for her. Reporter but, said pam, russ found out. According to pam, he and betsy had arguments about it. And she would kind of throw her relationship with pam in russ face. And she talked about me all the time, and it bothered him. And that angered him . Well, he thought it was sex. At that time, it wasnt even sex. He thought that was part of it because she likes sex, but thats not true. Well, and and youre absolutely right. I dont think the sex would ha as no, he wouldnt have cared about that. The emotional part. If we just went and banged in the closet once a week or whatever, he would have cared less. I agree 100 with that. And theres a lot of people like that theres no threat. Right. I was very threatening to him because you were changing his whole life. His whole dynamic, yeah. Reporter then one day, pam told the detective, russ confronted her, and something truly ugly happened. Pushed me up against the wall, and he was all redfaced. Kind of like a gritted teeth . Yeah, he was right there. I could feel his spit. Nasty. And he said, you two [ bleep ], something to that ekt. If i ever catch you together again, ill bury you out in the backyard. Just a few weeks prior to her being killed . Yes. Reporter the night betsy was murdered, said pam, she was going to tell russ she wanted a divorce. But neither of them understood, said pam, how furious russ would be. I hadlt im leaving her with this [ bleep ] coming home. I know hes coming home. She knows hes coming home. We both know theres going to be a big thing going on, and i left her there. Right. And i felt guilty, but i didnt want to be there. Reporter so, true . Well, pam said so. Then just before russ second trial, pam said shed recovered a memory, a crucial memory. Remembered seeing russ that night. She remembered seeing a car kind of parked in an odd position down the street. And there were two guys in there. And you think you recognized one of those men . I do, yes. And who do you think you believe who do you believe that person was . I believe it was russ. Reporter well, this is a fairly complicated return memory . It is. And its potentially a huge gift to the prosecutors. Reporter but perhaps the hottest piece of new ede discovered just days before the trial, was a letter found on betsys laptop, a letter that spelled out her fears about russ. This was the proverbial smoking gun. The prosecutor called it betsys basically dying declaration. Talked about betsy having a pillow put over her face, feeling threatened by russ, talked about the insurance. Heres this really bad guy whos motivated by all these things to do me harm. Reporter in the letter, Life Insurance money when she died and use it to help betsys daughters. It ended with a line that, looking back, could be considered prophesy. She says if anything happens to me, give this to the police. Reporter prosecutor leah askey was confident russ faria was about to be convicted of murder a second time. Coming up new testimony against russ. This is deeply troubling. New questions about pams story. Its so brazen. And later a new turn in this most twisted of tales. He said pam hupp shot somebody. Buy one motoz droid and get one half off, and 300 back. And 4 lines for only 40 each. Why settle when you can have it all on verizon . Just press clean and let roomba from irobot help with your everyday messes. Roomba navigates your entire home. Cleaning up pet hair and debris for up to 2 hours. You and roomba, from irobot. A new development tonight in what may be the most mystifying dateline ever. You feel like youre in a movie that you cant wake up from. Russ faria has been convicted of murdering his wife betsy thanks partly to what betsys friend told investigators. He makes comments about how much money hell have after shes gone. Now russ is about to get a second trial. I was holding my breath. But hang on. Whoa. This story is about to take a she told them she was a dateline producer. A dateline impostor . Such a bizarre scheme. Its nuts. Again, keith morrison. Reporter as he prepared for his new trial in early november 2015, russ faria knew he could be going right back to prison for the rest of his life. A lot of butterflies, especially the weekend before. Reporter and he knew the state was going to present new evidence against him. Reporter security for the trial was very tight. Resentments festered. Betsys side, they could cut in line. They didnt search their purses. Pam hupp got to go in through an employees door. Reporter prosecutor leah askey presented the case again as a crime of passion. She reviewed all the old evidence. The 55 stab wounds, the bloody slippers, russ alleged abusive and controlling behavior and so on. Heres a bad guy. Hes mean to his kids, hes mean to his dog, hes mean to his wife. Theres blood in spots, maybe there was cleanup in other spots. Reporter and then there was all that new evidence. And one extra tidbit, mentioned for the first time on day one of the trial. A sheriffs deputy said, i remember that i did see some water in the tub. Reporter meaning . Well, that would fit with the killed her and then cleaned up. Reporter how did that so suddenly pop out of the woodwork . Joel schwartz and his cocounsel Nathan Swanson were convinced it was made up, not true, an invented memory. This officer coming up with this evidence 3 1 2 years after the fact and allegedly remembering something as minute of a detail as water droplets in a tub is deeply troubling. There was never a report on th reporter he didnt believe pam hupps story about a secret, intimate relationship with betsy either. Nor did anybody else who knows betsy. And frankly, the people we spoke to who knew pam hupp, nobody bought it. It just was an excuse for betsy to have given her the money. Reporter in fact, said schwartz, most all the tales told by pam were beyond belief. Pams story became its called supercharged. The detectives, the stories became more outlandish. I think in their view, their case got better. However, the lies upon lies continued to, at least in our view, enhance our defense, number one, and show that the basis of their theory had nothing had no stability whatsoever. Reporter but unless she was telling the truth . Its simply not possible based upon her answers that she was telling the truth because the things that were stated by miss hupp are 180 degrees different from things that had been stated by her previously. Reporter were they . Well, yes. Back in 2011, pam said shed only met russ a few times. He seems nice enough. I just dont know him that well. Reporter but in june 2015, she said she knew him all too well. Saw him up close and personal just before the murder, when she claimed russ threatened to bury her in the backyard. Just a few weeks prior to her yes. Reporter in july 2014, under oath, she denied having an intimate relationship with betsy. We were not having an affair. There was not an intimate relationship. Reporter but a year later she told detectives theyd been very intimate indeed. I replaced what a husband would be. Reporter in 2014, she said she had a fine memory. Do you have any memory problems, ms. Hupp . No, no. Reporter but in 2015, when she told detectives she suddenly recalled seeing russ outside his house the night betsy was murdered, she blamed her not remembering that before on having a bad memory. So my brain has been almost like a boxers brain. Severe head injuries, three accidents in a row. Reporter but just as astonishing as her inconsistencies, said the defense attorneys, was where that story about seeing russ one of the detectives. You can hear it for yourself. What we believe may have happened is that you were present, that russ was not there when you and betsy got there. And that prior to you leaving, somehow or another russ knew that you were there, either by a phone call or just the sheer presence of your car or that he walked in sa that that it was at that particular moment motivating factor for you to leave was him coming into the house. That is what we have discussed amongst ourselves. Reporter the detective asked pam straight out. Is any part of that correct . And it is in fact did you see russ that night . No. Reporter you heard right. She said no. Until a few months later when he said yes. Who do you believe that person was . The police in effort to enhance miss hupps story as well as bolster their case, suggested a theory to miss hupp that she may have seen Russell Faria at the house that night. Reporter which she adopted. I mean, its so brazen to be doing it on a recording so that everyone can hear it. Reporter pams inconsistencies, said the defense, were rampant. And it wasnt even that she would te s different story. The stories she would tell in a single interview would be inconsistent. Reporter and there was more about to be exposed. Didnt look good for someone. Coming up russ attorney rolls the dice. I was going to either be the goat or the hero. Verdict number two. You felt the floor come out from under your feet. Youre thinking, im going to be is a prescription medicine for depression. Trintellix may start to untangle or help improve the multiple symptoms of depression. For me, trintellix made a difference. Tell your healthcare professional right away if your depression worsens, or you have unusual changes in mood, behavior or thoughts of suicide. Antidepressants can increase these in children, trintellix has not been studied in children. Do not take with maois. Tell your healthcare professional about your medications, including migraine, psychiatric and depression medications to avoid a potentially lifethreatening condition. 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Hey sorry about last weekend, i dont know what got into me. Well forgive and forget. Kind of. I dont think so it was a little like watching a tennis match for the prosecution served hard, and the defense responded in kind. Every time her people went up, joel would come back, and he would just shoot them down. Reporter but the defense had a problem thanks to pam hupp. Remember that smoking gun . That was a computer document, a very personal letter addressed to pam found on betsys laptop but never sent. In it, she asked pam to be beneficiary of her Life Insurance and then expressed a kind of fear about what russ might do to her. Clearly, said the state, that was betsys own dying declaration. When you got it, what did you think . I would say initial reaction was, this is troubling. Reporter so it was because it appeared to back up pam hupps version of events, that russ must have discovered betsys betrayal and killed her in a rage. In fact, pam told detectives soon after the murder, she knew i would like to see maybe if you guys can find that letter she was going to send me. Reporter they finally found it just before the second trial. I had always said that this letter would turn up only because miss hupp was so insistent that this letter was there. Reporter but this was curious. There was something quite strange about this particular document. Once we looked at the letter and had our computer expert analyze it, it turns out that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for betsy to have in her computer. Reporter why would you say that . It was the only document in that computer that said author unknown, the only one. Reporter meaning that letter was likely a fake, composed on a different computer altogether and transferred to betsys laptop, quite probably, said the defense, without betsy being aware of it at all. Mrs. Hupp knew what computer it was in, where on the computer it was. The entire contents of the i find that suspicious at least. Reporter because, said schwartz, the document was load on to betsys laptop the day before pam was named the beneficiary of betsys Life Insurance policy and just days before the murder. Its likely that person deliberated coolly as to what they were going to do to betsy and when they would do it, knowing where russ would be at the time. Reporter which, if youre right, means a pretty carefully planned murder . I think you follow the dots as well as the money, and that information should be carefully as well as thoroughly looked at. Reporter hm. Well, as pam herself told detectives money is makes people do crazy, crazy things. Reporter but this seemed odd. Though pam hupps story was the backbone of the case against russ, she was not called to testify by either side. Pam taunted the defense about afraid of the truth, she texted. And suggested schwartz didnt have the, well, nerve to grill her. But grilling wasnt necessary, said schwartz. Pams shifting stories were part of the record now, as were revelations that she kept betsys insurance money and was the last person known to have seen her alive. The judge allowed us to go into those things. Reporter in the end, it wouldnt be a jury whod decide russ farias fate. Joel schwartz had already rolled the dice and elected trial by judge alone. I was going to either be the goat or the hero. Reporter it was early afternoon on a friday. We heard the judge was getting ready to come back in. And youre thinking, im going to be sick. I reached over the his sister. She had the same exact feeling. Im sure i was holding my breath, you know, just standing as straight as i could, focused on the judge. He keeps talking and youre thinking, where is he going with this . Reporter and then finally, here it was, the words. I find you not guilty. It was just like a heavy weight lifted off my shoulders. And we all just busted up in tears. And you felt the floor come out from under your feet. And youre thinking did we hear it right . Is it real . Is he really coming home . Reporter yes, he was. In his decision, the judge said he found the investigation of betsys murder rather disturbing. Ive people that i felt were innocent and i believed it, none more than russ. Reporter they celebrated then, of course, but not everyone. Betsys family called the verdict shocking and heartbreaking. Prosecutor leah askey said she still believed russ killed betsy, and she considers the case closed. And pam hupp denied she was involved in any way with betsys but, end of the saga . Oh no. Stranger than fiction, as they say. Coming up all that insurance money. Betsys daughters file suit. And pam hupp pushes back. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. When dateline continues. He ever us twostone diamond collection. New rings, necklaces, earrings and bracelets. One diamond for your best friend. One diamond for your true love. For the one woman. Whos both. Ever us. Available at kay, jared and zales. Why the phelps face . Old computer slowing you down . You know. I know. New computers are superfast. And yet here you are with a new world record for the slowest computer. Upgrade to a new pc. . . Feel a cold sore coming on . Only abreva can heal it in as few as two and a half days when used at the first sign. It penetrates deep and starts to work immediately to block the virus and protect healthy cells. Dont tough it out, knock it out, fast. Now perhaps its time to what was a story about russ faria and his murdered wife bet it is will now be, as you will see, the pam hupp story. We leave russ as a vindicated man. After two trials, 3 1 2 years behind bars, he was learning to live free again. Ive been doing a little traveling here and there. Im kind of a simple person. I like to camp a lot. Ive been doing that and doing some fishing. A normal life again really. Reporter well, it does disrupt a life for a period of time, a thing like this. Itll affect you for the rest of your life. But the way that i look at it is, you know, the best thing i can do is to not be bitter about anything. Reporter so russ tried to move on. There were lawsuits, of course. He filed a suit against Lincoln County and prosecutor leah askey and detectives for their handling of betsys murder. Suit or to dateline. Betsys daughters sued pam over the Life Insurance, claimed their mother really wanted them to get the 150,000. And, sure enough, back when she talked to the police, pam said she had indeed agreed to share part of the proceeds with the girls. She said, im going to make you the beneficiary. If you could, when my daughters are older, give them some money. I said, okay. Reporter now pam said the and why are we telling you this . Because when that case went to trial, pam hupp had to testify, which gave us a good look at pams way of doing things. Per personality maybe . Worth knowing given whats going to happen. Anyway, at the civil trial listen to the way she spoke to the daughters lawyer. What . Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What was your answer . Whoa, whoa, whoa. I d talking about. Reporter here pam is talking about her relationship with betsy. Verbal gymnastics. This is the first time you said you were sexual or intimate with her, is that correct . I said i was not we were not having an affair. Didnt you just say you were having a sexual relationship . Right . Not there, i did not say that. Thats not an affair to you . No. Have you ever had sex with somebody you werent in a very odd story about how she proved to prosecutor askey that she still had the insurance money in her possession. And she didnt hide her irritation with the questioning. So did you show did you bring a sack of cash into miss askey of 150,000 and say, hey, ive got 150,000 in my possession . Yes. You did . Yes, i said i have 150,000 in my position. Specifically that indicated that you had 150,000 in your possession . What did i just say . I had a sack of cash. Am i not clear . You brought a sack of cash and showed miss askey that you had 150,000, is that your testimony here . How many times you want me to say it . Reporter the issue of pams memory also came up. She tried to explain how her mind works. I cant tell i dont have a memory. The memory that comes to my head is the memory that i think that i remember. You cant remember if you have a memory problem. How do you know you have a memory problem . People say i have a memory problem. My doctor says i do. Right. But you dont see it . You dont perceive it in yourself . No. You understand what im saying . Reporter well, her inconsistencies were well known by this time. She perhaps surprisingly admitted to outright lying to betsys family and others. Id that youve spoken to, ms. Hupp, about what you were going to do about the Life Insurance proceeds . Possibly. Who else . Anybody that would bug me and bug me and bug me and bug me. Reporter and listen to this, in closing arguments pams own attorney described her this way. Im not going to argue about her credibility. Shows not a credible witness, but thats not the issue. Reporter so did pam lose this civil trial . Did the judge order her to turn betsys daughters . Why, no. It seemed the paperwork was in order. And there was no hard proof that betsy wanted her girls to get the money. So the money would all be hers and hers alone. Pam was all smiles as she left the court and walked past our camera and said say hi to kathy. Reporter say hi to kathy . Kathy happens to be the dateline producer who has been covering the faria case, which is set remember in a few minutes. Anyway, that was back in january, and we frankly thought it was the last time wed hear from pam hupp. But then one day in the middle of august, a warm afternoon in the st. Louis suburbs, russ faria got a phone call. It was his dad. He had some news. Did he ever. Pam hupp had shot somebody. Coming up what had happened . Pam hupps dramatic story is about to lead right back to russ. He said, well, shes pointing the finger at me. Well now im starting to panic. Of inflammation that contributes to my symptoms. In clinical trials, most adults taking humira were clear or almost clear, humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. Before treatment, get tested for tb. 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At kohls, friends and family save a little more with an extra 20 off so you can give a little more this holiday. Kohls. Uh, you asked to see me, coffee . Yeah, listen, sugar, were, uh. Lettin you go. Wait, what . People love sweet taste. Thats true, but sweet aint enough anymore. Its that splenda naturals gal, isnt it . Yeah. I knew it look, not only is she sweet, shes got natural stevia, no bitter aftertaste, and of course, zero calories. I know ugh so all the partners agree . Even iced tea . Especially iced tea. Goodbye, sugar. August in st. Louis. I didnt know what to think. So much of this case is sort of unbelievable. Reporter wonders, apparently, were not about to cease. I couldnt have possibly imagined the facts that unfolded. I dont know that anybody could have. Reporter what happened . Police cars swarmed into a quiet called ofallon, and reporters surrounded the police chief roy joachimstaler. Around noon today or about 10 after 12 00, we received a call for a burglary in progress and then we received a second call that there was a person shot. Reporter it was pam hupps place. The Ofallon Police said she shot and killed a man trying to break into her house. Its a burglar . Well, from all indications from our scene investigation it appears that and thats what was reported to us. Reporter pam told the officers what happened. Said she was just sitting in her suv. This initially began in her driveway while she was in her car. And the person, the decedent approached her there. And there was some sort of confrontation there and she ran into the house and he followed her. Reporter she called 911, and when the man kept coming at her, gun and shot the guy. And thats about as much as the chief could say just then. Were looking to do a complete and thorough investigation of this. And well get to the well corroborate some of the information. Reporter so with very little in the way of real information, speculation spiraled. It was pretty unusual to have someone who had been involved in reporter yeah. Involved in another one. I think there were a lot of people wondering what happened . Was this connected to the betsy faria case. Reporter was there who thought maybe russ was involved with this this . People out in aha, russ was trying to get back. If youre the husband and you think that somebody killed your wife and blamed you for it, got away with 150,000, maybe youre pretty motivated to get reveng mans pockets, police discovered 900 in cash and a note, which seemed to indicate this was no random burglary, but a murder for hire, with pam as the intended victim, the dead man as the hired killer, and russ faria as the mastermind. Mary got a phone call from russ. He asked me if i could go with him to the Police Department on monday. And im like, well, why . He said, they want to talk to me. Now im kind of startled a little bit. Im like, well, why do they want to talk to you . Well, they think im and i was like well, what do you mean they think youre involved . Well, shes pointing the finger at me. Well now im starting to panic. Reporter and so russ sat down with the officers. From a Different Police force, by the way, than the one that investigated betsys murder. Did they ask you some pointed questions . They did. Reporter these new investigators were especially interested in any connection between russ and the possible hit man. Th his name was Louis Gumpenberger. They asked me if i knew mr. Gumpenberger, which id nfr seen or heard of him before this incident. They took handwriting samples from my right and left hand. Reporter then a week after the shooting at pams house, the police chief and the prosecutor attorney held a press conference to tell the public what theyd learned. Robert patrick was there. I was sort of looking around something because id never seen anything like it, heard anything like it. On august 16th of this year, at about 12 10 that date, Louis Gumpenberger was shot and killed by pamela hupp while he was at her residence. Its so crazy. And so complicated and so cold blooded. Reporter the prosecutor said pam hupp told police gumpenberger came at her like a mad man. Put a knife to hupp and kept telling her that shes going to take him to the bank, to quote, get russ money. The handwritten note located in gumpenbergers pocket appeared to be instructions for gumpenberger to kidnap hupp, get russ money from hupp at her bank, and then kill hupp. Reporter russ hired a hit man to kill pam . The specific elaborate deadly directions, oh, but there was more coming. True. Coming up a deadly plot, and a dateline impostor . She tried to recruit this individual for an upcoming dateline episode. Hi hey ive made plans for later in case this date doesnt go well. Same here. 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Feasts like these make the holidays chief and the prosecutor. Every ear strained to hear the amazing story they were telling. At this time id like to briefly outline the facts. Reporter pam hupps story. That she shot and killed Louis Gumpenberger when he chased her into her house apparently intent on killing her, a mission that seemed to be confirmed when the police found a note in louis pocket with murder instructions from russ faria. The note was referencing a Life Insurance payout related to the russ faria murder trials. Reporter but the story, lurid as it was, was about to take a very weird turn. Because then the prosecutor told the press what theyd found out about Louis Gumpenberger. Oh, boy. Louis was a 33yearold disabled man. Shannon zoll was his exgirlfriend and the mother of his children. I had our first child, our with my son. And about three weeks after having our son is whenever he had his accident. Reporter accident . Police learned that in 2005, louis, driving drunk, smashed his car into another and severely damaged his brain. He could no longer drive and had nerve damage in one arm. He was able to find work at a place called bci, a Packaging Company that emplois adults with disabilities. Katie jones is a director here. So as you can see, i mean, everybody does one step to a task. Its broken down to their skill set so that we can make each person successful and get the end result of the package. Reporter gumpenberger was sweet, said katie jones. Happy guy, loved being here. Reporter he hardly seemed like a hit man. So what or who brought louis to pams house in the first place . Pam herself. Listen carefully as you hear how they pieced together what is one of the most convoluted stories theyd ever encountered. It starts six days before louis was shot to death. A woman in this Community Called police to report that a suspicious female approached her as she stood outside her home. And said she was a dateline producer from chicago where our producer cathy happens to live. Back to that press conference. And she tried to recruit this individual to go with her to do a soundbite for an upcoming dateline episode regarding 911 calls. She was told that she would be given a script and she was promised 1,000 in cash. Reporter of course, pam knew about cathy, the dateline producer from chicago working on this story. Say hi to cathy. Reporter so did reporter Robert Patrick. Of course, there has been a dateline producer doing this story. So its very plausible. Reporter sure. But recreating a 911 call. An odd request. If somebody didnt know dateline producers, they might think that was a possible thing. Right. And it makes more sense as it plays out. Reporter we dont pay for soundbites and never would ask for a fake one. Anyway police went to talk to the woman. She dropped out of the deal when the socalled producer couldnt produce any credentials. But look at this. The woman had installed secu cameras on her home, which got a clean shot of the suv the woman was driving. A review of that video showed that the vehicle in question was a dark colored gmac acadia with a missouri license plate that matches license plates issued to pamela hupp. Reporter yes. Pamela hupp. So had pam hupp tried something the police figured maybe her cell phone could tell them something. The search warrants with served on google to provide historical location data related to her specific device. One latitude and longitude location provided by google resolved to gumpenbergers apartment complex. Reporter where e said the prosecutor, on the very day she shot him, pam very probably tried her 911 scam again on a very gullible louis. Spent about four minutes there. And louis apparently, you know, liked to sit on the front porch and, i guess she presented this scenario to him. And he got in her car and less than an hour later, hes dead on her floor. Reporter the request to make a 911 call is simply a ruse to get that person into her car and into her house. And into her house. She calls 911 and says, hey, hear her shoot. Reporter louis, said the police, probably went in there thinking he would read an easy script and make some easy money. Like the 900 found in his pocket. Police linked four of those bills from their serial numbers to a 100 bill found in pams bedroom. I cant imagine what was going through that poor gentlemans head when hes trying to read from this script and she pulls out a gun and shoots him. He ld he should not have all. He believed he was going to make money to help his family out that needed it. Nobody was there that day to tell him it was a bad idea. Reporter but why . Why would pam do such an awful thing and to a man so vulnerable . The conclusion i would draw would be that she was trying to look for someone that could take some heat off her because of that previous case. Feel the need to do that . Well, it turned out a federal prosecutor had begun a review of the betsy faria murder case and so, said the police chief and prosecutor, pam killed an innocent man in an effort to frame russ faria. Of course, russ believes pam had already framed him once for betsys murder. Then all of a sudden this same person who is trying to do it again, it creates a lot of anxiety and nervousness. Sometimes you dont even know what to think or feel. Reporter pam hupp was charged with first dege in the death of Louis Gumpenberger. Just after her arrest, pam stabbed herself in the neck with a pen at the police station, though few felt it was a serious suicide attempt. She has not commented on that charge or entered a plea yet. Her trial date hasnt been set. Meanwhile, all kinds of ideas have been floating around in st. Louis. Russ, his attorney and others have long thought pam hupp had something to do with the murder confirmed it for them. Two people dead. The question is, were there three . Coming up she was found in the grass below her third floor apartment. The strange, sad fate of pam hupps mother. Disturbing new questions. Could that possibly have been an accident . No. With downy fabric conditioner. It not only softens and freshens. It helps protect clothes. From stretching, fading and fuzz. So your favorite clothes stay your favorite clothes. Downy fabric conditioner wash in the wow. Oh caroline. So corporate put you up in a roadside motel. Or that friendly dumpster diver outside. I wouldnt sit there. Its your tv, take it with you. Now you can watch your dvr anywhere, at no extra cost, with directv from at t. Just like mom, you have dinner on the table at 6 00 every night. Hey guys, im home of course no one said it had to be cooked. Campbells one dish recipes, and your schedule. Made for real, real life. Cottonelle asked real people about cleaning. Their bums. What . laughs laughs what does cleanripple texture do . Catches all the stuff that you want to get out. 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Thats why he went to jared. Next friday, the end of a romantic getaway. My sister was gone. It leads to the heart of another mystery. It was forgotten for nearly 20 years. The story of pam hupp, charged with first degree murder for killing Louis Gumpenberger isnt over. No ones answered the question, who killed betsy faria. Pam, she adamantly denied she did. But theres one more question, very disturbing. Its about pams mother, shirley neumann. For that, lets go back in time. Remember how that detective prepared pam to testify at russ farias murder trial . And how he warned her that russ attorney might accuse her of killing betsy for the insurance money, and pam, a mere 150,000 . I really hate to say it, my moms worth half a million that i get when she dies. If i really wanted money, there was an easier way than trying to combat somebody thats physically stronger than me. Im just saying. Reporter strange then 16 months later pams 77yearold mother shirley fell to her death from her third floor balcony at a retirement complex. The lo pictures, did a little investigating. Looked at first blush like shirley maybe tripped and fell, breaking right through these railings. A couple of bent and broken railing spindles were lying near her body on the ground. The police found out pam was the last person known to have seen her mother alive the evening before she died. The people at the retirement home told them pam talked to the staff around 5 00 p. M. , told them her mother would not be coming down for dinner or for next afternoon. One of the Staff Members came into her apartment and noticed the water was running, and i think she noticed that the patio door was ajar. There were some things that were, kind of, knocked around and then some of the railings had been dislodged. Reporter so then she looked over. She looked over and saw the body. Reporter must have been quite a shock to that house cooper . Yes. Reporter an anonymous tipster suggested the police should look at pam. They talked to her brother and her brother said, you know, i dont have any concerns about what happened here. Her mother was not in great health. Had had a fall fairly recently before her death. Reporter but they still didnt talk to pam . They still didnt talk to pam. Reporter and they ruled it an accident. But even back then, st. Louis fox 2 reporter chris hayes wondered if pam had something to do with it. So he knocked on pams front door d and asked how did your mom die . How did my mom die . What happened . She died. Like the people in the home say she committed suicide, so im not quite sure whats going on. Really . Oh, im sorry to hear that. I mean, just jumped . Well, i dont know because we dont know yet whats going on, so okay. Was she suicidal . I dont think so. I dont know. Reporter suicide . That didnt appear anywhere someone break through the railings instead of going over the top anyway . In any case, pam was upset about that reporters questions. She complained about it to Lincoln County prosecutor leah askey. I took a 210pound woman and threw her through railings. How do you do that . How does a man do that . Reporter good question. How did pams mother, shirley, manage to break through those railings and fall to her death . My names dr. Reporter dr. Amy rapkiewiczs special skill, shes head of Autopsy Service at new york universitys school of medicine, is determining from evidence provided how a person died. She read the autopsy report, saw that shirley had the equivalent of about eight ambien sleeping pills in her system. Its high. Its higher than what you would normally expect in a typical ingestion. Reporter the doctor was frustrated that investigators didnt follow that up. Could shirley have been drugged . Was that dose enough to knock her out . Was there a pill bottle . How many pills were in the bottle . Whens the last time the bottle was filled . Reporter we showed the doctor the pictures the police took of the scene of shirleys death, bent and broken railing spindles, also called balusters, shirleys body lying on the ground, et cetera. And i have a lot of questions looking at the photographs that were provided. Reporter like, why did shirleys injuries look like she trying to stop herself. Could the high level of ambien in her system have been a factor . And why werent there any marks on her body from breaking though those now bent and broken balusters . You would have wanted to know how difficult it is to push out those balusters, the physical properties of the balusters. Reporter another good question. So why not ask a Structural Engineer . The hand rails didnt fail, it was just the spindles. Reporter his name is justin hall. Out how and why structures fail, or in this case, how shirley could have bent and broken those aluminum spindles to fall through them to her death. We found out she was a little over 200 pounds. Reporter justin calculated that the maximum force shirley could have exerted on those spindles, if she tripped on the threshold and fell head long across the deck into the spindles that rate, that far, it would almost multiply her weight times two. So were looking at about 425 pounds into the hand rail, head first. Reporter thats a lot of weight. Yes. Reporter but then it did this. It knocked out five balusters . Six. Reporter six of them . Six of them were knocked out, two of which were knocked to the ground. Reporter that means that there would have to be enough force not to just bend one, but then you have to multiply force to bend all six . All six, yes. It would take a lawn mower, or a vehicle to cause that much and pull out. Reporter the engineer was convinced there was no way that pams mother could have done that kind of damage. So, he put together a little test using six spindles, just like shirleys. But, it turned out slightly thinner, not quite as sturdy as hers. And just going to demonstrate how strong they are. So, we decided to use concrete bags, pretty heavy. Reporter each of those weigh 94 pounds. So were not going to hit 425. Were going to hit almost 500. Were at almost double her weight. 390 pounds. So now 480 pounds. Reporter not bending yet. Nothings happened. Reporter so we kept going. So what are we at . One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Reporter close to 800 pounds. Yes. Still nothing. Even if she was running full into the spindles, still wouldnt reach this. Reporter when he did the math, the engineer determined that it would take at least 2,000 pounds of force to cause the damage done to shirleys balcony railing. Something like ten times shirleys weight. Interesting. So based on what you saw, those photographs, and this test, could that possibly have been an accident . No. Reporter no way . Even if she was running full speed. Reporter i guess it makes you wonder how that could have been broken so badly . It was clearly some other blunt force kicking individually maybe. Something else. Hard to say at this point. But it wasnt somebodys head and shoulders going through. Thats what weve proven right here. Reporter though its academic, of course. The st. Louis county police said theyre reviewing the case, but so far havent found evidence to suggest it was anything but an accident. Or that pam hupp should be a suspect. Her attorney declined comment because he said the death of pams mother isnt even considered a crime. And pam hasnt been charged with betsys murder. And he, her attorney, has so far received no information, no evidence about the gumpenberger case. Still, the question lingers, what, if anything, did pam hupp do to betsy faria and to her own we already know she killed Louis Gumpenberger. Thats a fact she herself reported. So what are we let with . Well, according to joel schwartz, a series of events that might never have happened had the county that prosecuted russ done right by the betsy faria case in first place. Do you want to place any responsibility on any agency or person or anything . Well, theres no legal responsibility. Lincoln county regarding the Louis Gumpenberger situation. Morally i think theres blood on their hands. Reporter not our place to say, of course. And Lincoln County certainly doesnt think so. As for russ, he desperately wants betsys murder case solved he told us and the killer and any accomplices still at large behind bar. For justice. But also for a little peace of are you . I drive around looking over my shoulder quite a bit, yeah. Reporter we have a feeling that the bizarre saga of pam hupp, the murder in missouri, may still have a surprise or two to come. And trust me, well be watching. Thats all for this edition of dateline. Well see you again next friday at 9 00, 8 00 central. And of course, ill see you each week night for nbc nightly news. Im lester holt. For all of us at nbc news, good night. We are less than 24 hours