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Back into the program Bruce Hornsby the way it is now things some things never change you know the word skepticism is generally a good thing it's a good idea especially when you're dealing with strange topics the kind of things we talk about on this program what some would call fringe subjects from Tir science it used to mean it's sort of like that state motto of Missouri used to mean show me you know if you got proof. Believe it but you've got to show me the word However it's been hijacked a skeptic today is essentially a true believer of true believer in non-belief as much as zealot as any hardcore religious true believer in many ways you know we we deal with skeptics and skepticism a lot on this show because of the subjects we discuss but rarely is there a chance to put skeptics to the same test to hold them to the same standards that they try to impose on everyone else while a journalist named Robert McLuhan has done just that his book Randi's prize what skeptics say about the paranormal why they're wrong and why it matters is very timely very well written and in a moment Robert joins us we'll be right back. 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Welcome back Robert McLuhan is a freelance journalist and former foreign correspondent for The Guardian he's been a member of the Society for Psychical Research since 1993 and blogs about paranormal topics since 2014 he's edited the saya encyclopedia is a free online resource that contains more than $300.00 in-depth articles about a century and a half of scientific research into e.s.p. Dreams mediumship and related psychic experiences his new book is called Randi's prize what skeptics say about the paranormal why they're wrong and why it matters Robert welcome to the program thank you both. I wonder in your in your work online and writing about it for this encyclopedia and also your you know your blog do you engage with the with skeptics do you have a dialogue with them and can have a healthy conversation opens a question. I think 2 ounces Yes and. It depends what sort of skeptic they are the kind of skeptic that is just that to. To sort of smear and debunk. You know you can't wait until I have tried. And it works up to a point but it's really like a dialogue of the gap that no real contact. And I think got something increasingly what experience in people called for Valley is where people sort of come to gaze and try. To communicate because they're not interested in hearing the other points of view they just want to express their own so there's that. They're all very occasionally people who are much more serious. And then in both cases yes I'm content to let me have a meaningful discussion but not with the expectation of a change in mind I always find it amazing that scientist somebody who's a pure scientist who is interested in pursuing knowledge and gaining information and testing hypotheses that they would be interested in what we would call fringe or from Terra sciences siree search you up owes near death experiences mediums things of that sort to test whether it's true or not and how it might fit into a model of the universe and a model of reality but in fact it it seems like so many. For them it's a religion and that they did they close their ears and their eyes and they don't want to hear about it well what you describe the power cycle which is because the people I mean somebody like me put Sheldrake I'm right and I'm soft top. You know very well to people often make it by the idea of Islam and they do exactly that you know they experiment they they try it out I'm not going to sign my mind. I'm not too hard all of the vast majority. Because I think that I mean that all a lot of if you I guess they will touch on a few of them and Suppose we go along but there is a you know a psychological if you. Everybody needs a framework in which that you know that thinking takes place and I think science has that framework. And unfortunately these sorts of phenomena Raavan lie outside it and it's very difficult for them to make that step. So. I think they do react defensively of course from the outside it seems rather weird I'm not sure but there it is you know something you just have to accept I think you know I've covered Sy research and psychic topics a lot remote viewing it will get into those in a minute my main framework is dealing with U.F.O.'s and skepticism in that area and I've found that you know otherwise inquisitive scientific minds will say well you know I've read all the literature in that area and there's just no proof that U.F.O.'s are a genuine mystery or something unexplained and then the fact is there is no literature for them to read because articles scientific articles Duncan printed in science journals they there is no literature base for them to look at and. So you know it's hard to be too tough on them and that they think that they read it but in fact that they have they have not and I'm sure the same is true in the psychic realm where they're absolutely lies and I think that's not the problem but I think that's not the way that the sort of polarized nation of. Divide expected itself is that people put up a sort of a funk a logical barrier when they say there's no evidence. I mean they don't attribute everything or evidence because of the loss of evidence because you know people talk about it people have been there all the time it's stuff that it's not it's not function period it's not they have to be given permission to take it seriously and I think most people do cat they believe they need some sort of will. They don't really think for themselves they think of themselves up to a point. And I think actually a lot of people who think that they think for themselves some think that they think critically off still actually thinking within the scope of the ball. And that's why you get these you know these very defensive reaction. Well it's more debunking and skepticism and as you write in your book you know the mainstream scientists are happy to embrace a good debunking of a topic because they didn't want to believe in it to begin with absolutely and that's why I focus on Randi's prize. I expect that many of your listeners will be aware of James Randi Yeah go ahead and tell us the $1000000.00 challenge. That says it was actually discontinued a few years ago but I don't make the 3040 year you off with a cash prize and I think it started a few $1000.00. Does it sort of 12 over a period to become a $1000000.00. And the idea of that was that if. Anybody could convince him that they had some sort of special cyclical abnormal power if. He were towards. The pocket money. I'm thinking of the would be. Anybody who we. Could. Tell the future will communicate with Spirit will scream whatever it might be if any will be truly happy hours then why not go into the price from and get the money. And it's a very powerful statement made good use of a while Randy's gone and I was very interested in this I'm very interested in that sort of skepticism because I think that what he actually did was create a rather interesting device is the fact a trick if it's a comfort trick and you make it as difficult as possible for people who have to surprise you you discourage it as much as you can. You're right natural food that. It's virtually impossible for me. To go into the private. Lots of people have tried it and got into a terrific struggle with him over the conditions. And then. Maybe he's won the prize and therefore it is true but what really interests me about this is that it is the response of scientists. It Into has moved. Some of the leading voices in atheism secularism scientific secularism. Relying on the run because of this particular device. To face down. One time I think about 1015 years ago there was a lot of writing about. In the post. 911 climate there was a lot of atheist rice and people like. Richard Dawkins and the philosopher Daniel Dennett. Sam Harris is another long Christopher Hitchens very people who are writing very well received and well regarded books well regarded. All of them are on record as. Saying that psychics can't be telling the help the real that can't be genuine and why because nobody none of them is one Randi's prize that's that great proof to them it has nothing to do with scientific investigation it's stuff that single thing that convinced them that it isn't true and I was very struck by the immense power of a sort of a message so that's why I use the title of my book the book and for that if anybody is interested in the price itself I'm afraid there's not very much about it in the book. I just use as a result of a starting point for certain kinds of skepticism I know that when it went to a 1000000 dollars What occurred to me 1st is number one I don't believe Brandi has a 1000000 dollars to give away and a number 2 is that he's the ultimate judge of whether somebody wins the prizes or not and I can't imagine him ever admitting no matter what evidence came forward that if somebody had proven their point exactly that that's the. That's the beauty of it is that you know use that Jobson final obviousness of course he's the last person in the well who would accept it because if you did it would be embarrassing for them I don't actually agree about the money I think they did actually have financial arrangements in place I suspect with some kind of insurance. But I think all the people who were involved and I think that that at least that part of it would have been genuine you know the money would be. But certainly having followed the drama involved in other people for attempts to you know to get them seriously to engage with them in an attempt. One realizes how extremely difficult it would be . And I notice all the kind of people who applied for the prize a multitool. Time to people who would have a movie winning it I didn't you know there are a lot of people out somewhat So to me about their ability. And I think that the problem is how to do with a lot of the rather. Self-defeating people. So you know that's not an involvement with the truth. And the the skepticism that I encounter the debunking I should say you know it's always pretty much the same it say a world weary sigh from the debunker Oh no not this claim again I'll just have to set these these deluded people straight and then it's a haughty dismissal and because everyone in the world is is on a binge of insults now with social media and and feel they can get away with it. It's always harsh language and poking fun and just certainly beneath people who are genuine scientists you with thing. Yes because I do you mean I've always tried to find a space where one could actually talk about these things without leave out that. And of course America Blog is quite a challenge because you know you can't really sort of see yourself in the world you don't want to. But I actually I found on the whole that you know if you use a respectful time and. You discuss not a seriously. You know up to a point you could get I mean you get people coming on some of you can be vulgar abusive comments but on the whole they're a minority and I think you know is culpable here on a forum where you can have an exchange of views up to a point but it you know it actually does become quite difficult and there are people who are just too difficult to be managed. And then you have to block them and not cause these problems well then they proclaim victory already a when you block them and that's that sort of little gold star I suppose who does care about them because the you know distracting the conversation you can't really . You know by going to thing you know you know you're an American for them and somebody stands up and starts heckling and chaffing that you have to call it security you know there's no other way. You you know you you accept the idea that skepticism is a good thing genuine skepticism you're dealing with topics sigh topics psychic experiences e.s.p. And dreams and mediums and you know all of those fields have had their share of of fakes or people who are deluded or just plain wrong so it's a good thing to be able to we did out and try to figure out what the where and when the substance might exist right absolutely yes I mean you've got to be thought and that's really what interests me because you know I'm not interested in preaching to the converted which I'm afraid I do anyway a lot of the time I come. All the time engage people who are genuinely skeptical you know agnostic the kind of people who possibly could be interested in these things if one had a serious discussion with them so that you know my writing is not idea. And I think in that respect I differ from quite a lot of. Their goodness fields who I suspect really are just talking to the old man. Not to say that the audience doesn't appreciate the great probably Valda most of them come to me appreciate me but you know I think it's important to try to reach out to different constituents is absolutely not to try and put the material in front of people and say you know think about this. You know that's what I've been working on the last few years well you know we're seeing that now with the u.f.o. Topic the New York Times covered it in a big story in December of 2017 a lot of other media have followed and now you have mainstream scientists cautiously edging toward reading about it and learning about it whereas 2 years ago they they wouldn't touch it well that's actually I mean there will be a backlash yes even things go in. Sort of phases and what what what you tend to find particularly in my field I'm dealing with. Oh my goodness I'm even in psychics . Particularly experimental science e.s.p. And so what you tend to find some major claim. You reach is you get the old food but the guest so you can get sims in the mainstream media and he's written about comics it. Was very extensively and it makes an impact. What you will then find is sort of a backlash. And skeptics are quite serious for the way he writes and will descend on it dissected to do so. And refined to provide the opposite point of view. In order to reassure that their own constituency who also want to buy em on. There you then find that there are so 2 narrative side by side very often these days you find them online. So you're in the position you know if you're serious about Want to try to understand it you have to try and compare the 2 things one against the other incompatible arguments and that's exactly what I did in the run Peace Prize because I'm very interested in arguments from I'm interested in you know what the how how people explain these things you know what can be said about them. Scientists since the earliest days of you know the eighty's that the late ninety's century when they seriously started to sit down and do surveys to do analysis experiment. And to try to come to conclusions what they