And boy contribution and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Pleased to be joined by laura poitras, director of citizenfour, which has generated a great deal of conversation around the world about our government and specifically the role of the nsa in its surveillance operations. Citizenfour focuses on contractor Edward Snowden and takes a deep dive into the what, why, when, and how was his decision to leak classified information. Well take a look at a clip before we start our conversation. Ill come out just to go, hey you know this is not a question of somebody skulking around in the shadows. These are public issues. These are not my issues, you know. These are everybodys issues. And im not afraid of you. Youre not going to bully me into silence like youve done to everybody else. If nobody else is going to do it, i will. And hopefully when im gone, whatever you do to me there will be somebody else who will do the same thing. It will be the internet principle the hydra. You can stomp one person but theres going to be seven more of us. Im honored to have you on this program. We met a couple of months ago for the first time at the ida awards. The independent documentary awards. I was honored to have been asked to present the big award of the night. Guess who won citizenfour. So laura and i had the chance to meet at the ceremony a couple months ago. I was just completely blown away when i saw this film. I didnt know what to expect. In part because i i think i know everything there is to know already about Edward Snowden and the nsa. I didnt know there was anything else to learn. I was just i was humbled. I was brought low by the film which is my way of asking, when you approach a project like this, if you think that everythings already been told about the story or about the guy, where do you start . Well i mean in this case, i mean, i knew i had something unique which was i was in the hotel room for eight days when he was meeting with myself and Glen Greenwald from the guardian and ewan mccaskill. That was unique access. And it wasnt just about, you know what we learned in the news but like what motivates a person and what does a person do when theyre under extreme pressures. And and i knew it hadnt been seen before, you know. Him in the moment of making the decision to come forward of pretty extraordinary. What did you learn about Edward Snowden, the person . I mean, stow went through different stages. At first i was just in email contact with him for several months. His a pretty good idea like what was motivating him. I mean, he felt that there were things happening that he had seen that he thought people should know about in adent crazy these are decisions that shouldnt be made in secret. So in terms of the scope of nsa surveillance. Then what i learned when i met him in person with glen was like, how how focused and calm he was in situations that most people would be incredibly nervous about. And that he has a real sense of resolve. Hes kind of he believes that the constitution matters, and that he was seeing things in violation of the constitution. Well come back to the film in a second. Let me back up since you mentioned the emails. So how and why i mentioned earlier we would talk about the what, when, where, and how. How and why did edward instead get in touch with you through these emails . You were one of the first people he reached out to. How did that happen . Yeah, yeah. It started out first, he tried to reach Glen Greenwald. He sent glean emails in december of 2012. And they had correspondence but he was trying to get glen to install Encryption Software so he, really tell him why he was contacting him. Until that happened he was just beating around the bushment glen didnt didnt install the encryption. Then in january, about a month later, i got a first mysterious email saying he was somebody who had information about nsa spying and what he felt were violations of the constitution. And i paid attention quickly because id been working on a project about the nsa for, at this point, over a year. So i he was saying things that i thought only an insider would know. At this point i actually was using encryption. I was up to speed in terms of how to communicate with him securely so he could talk to me and tell me what was going on before he was ready to reveal his identity. And so we we did a dance. I mean, i was i had a lot of questions for him because you know, somebody comes forward like that, you want to know what their motivation is, what makes them tick. And then i was able concerned that it could have been like an entrapment because i had by this point been on a watch list for several years. I thought, is something going on thats not what it appears to be. I said how do i know youre not trying to entrap me how do i know this is for real, why me . The why me of a big question because i wasnt a typical person as a im a journalist and a documentary filmmaker, but usually im the one approaching somebody else. I dont get cold emails in my inbox. It doesnt it never happens. The first time. Yeah. It was a pretty big surprise to me. And i dont work for a News Organization even though i i broadcast my work on pbs and the current film would be on hbo. But im not like you know, knocking on the door of the New York Times. I also had to know why me. And he he had seen my previous work, so i made a film about the iraq war. Then after that, i made a film about guantanamo. And i think that what motivated him to reach tout me and sglen that we both had histories of being sort of critical of u. S. Policy post 9 11. We asked a lot of questions and proved ourselves independent and hard to intimidate. And i think he worried that something would happen, like he would trust someone and the information wouldnt be published. I think he felt with me and glen that he would be assured that we were we would make sure that the informationed make it to the American People because he didnt want to take all this risk and then have it withheld. And which was a case that happened with the New York Times. The first revelations about warrantless wiretapping in the u. S. It was held for a year by the New York Times before it was published. I think snowden knew that very well. You mentioned in your previous work. This film is really the third piece of a trilogy. Your documentary about the iraq war, your documentary about guantanamo. Before we go into the details of citizenfour, how do you see this particular piece and this particular story, situate that as a part of the trilogy for me. Yeah. So the work ive been trying to do in documenting, they have some things in common. I make film where im trying to understand something. So i go in with a lot of questions. I dont have all the answers. And i film things as theyre happening in real time. So its called cinema verte in the documentary tradition where youre not interviewing people about things from the past, but youre there when its actually happening. And for me im interested in that for two reasons. One is you kind of create a history. Its like actually not its not a conversation about something that happened, but you actually are there when history is happening. And then also its you have all this drama human drama, when youre actually on the ground. You dont know whats going to happen next as a filmmaker. As you know, as the people youre sending time with, they dont know whats happening. A lot of risk taking and decisions that have to happen. The first film i made was about the iraq war. And i spent eight months in baghdad documenting a family particularly a doctor who was a who had a local clinic, and people would come to the clinic and say they would talk about their you know, whatever their illness. Then they would Start Talking about the occupation and what was happening. It was an amazing window into understanding what was happening for iraqis. And i wanted to understand it not just intellectually but in human terms. And at that point, this is 2004, 2005, there was a lot of news coverage. A lot of press was in iraq. You got the front page of the news. Zn it would say like 150 People Killed in5a l a car bombing in baghdad. But you didnt know anything about those people. You just got body counts. The work i do is trying to get human impact in these things. That was the first film in this work. And then i made a film about guantanamo. And and filmed both at guantanamo and in yemen to look at some of the war on terror and how that was being played out. That was of a more complicated film. I followed somebody who was really complicated character in but also pivotal person. The post9 11 era. And then with snowden and the nsa, i was interested in the nsa because right after 9 11 certain things happened that that are still the impact is still affecting us today. So we have the authorization of military force which created a lot of executive powers that, you know still govern the war in afghanistan. And there was also the use of the use of the nsas powers looking inward at the u. S. Population. What happened after 9 11 is we, you know, u. S. Citizens became targets of the nsa. And that happened like within weeks after they started bringing in equipment. And so i wanted to go back and look at how the war on terroror was unfolding here. And surveillance is what happened. And you have it particularly in the Muslim American community where people, you know, they were you know they sent in people to find out what was happening. To me thats a scary thing. As we know from the history of you know, people who become targets. Surveillance is a really powerful target tool to use against people. Or if you think of the the film selma where you have surveillance being used in the Civil Rights Movement. I want to quote i wrote this down, make sure i got this right. What you said momentsh3iin ago its a powerful statement. But one of your subject said, every dictatorship down through history has always done thatment one of the first things they need to do is try to acquirelc9 n knowledge of their population. And thats exactly when these programs do. I see this as the most major threat to our democracies around the world. Thats a powerful statement. So my question is whether or not you regard these kind of surveillance tactics that you referenced a moment ago, whether youre talking dr. King and the movement, whether youre talking the black panthers or anything else around the world. Is this really a threat to democracy . Yeah. So William Benny worked for the nsa for over three decades. He was in charge of sort of surveillance in the soviet union and also looked a lot at east germany. So he had he knew what was happening in those countries. East germany as we know, from the stasi. What we had what he had witnessed, the dictatorships, it is a form of control. You control dissent. And you control what people can say and freedom of expression, all those kinds of thing. That when governments start to do this internally, these are forms of censorship and dleelcontrol that do threaten. That once government turns surveillance powers inward, you squash basic freedoms of a society. And then we have sort of history in the u. S. , there are what we know where they were going in and people engaging in legitimate defense. You know the Civil Rights Movement et cetera. The ultimate question that people are still wrestling with is whether or not Edward Snowden is a whistleblower whether or not hes a traitor. I raise that and want to get your take on that. I think i know where youre going, but i want to ask you either way. I was on one of the sunday shows some months back. And i was actually surprised at all of the drama that i created by making what i thought of a Pretty Simple statement. Man, the social media rained down on me. Nothing new here. But i was surprised at the nerve that i struck in america when i made what i thought was a simple comment. Talking about Edward Snowden i dont know what show on abc. I made the comment that it wont surprise me that in 25 years from now Edward Snowden will be on a postage stamp for all the hell hes catching now. He may very well be on a postage stamp 25 years from now. My point is malcolm x is on a postage stamp and a lot of other people. As time goes on we view things differently. Hen the question about whether or not hes a whistleblower or traitor. Your comments . Right. First of all, you have the case of Daniel Ellsburg who revealed the pentagon papers. Widely recognized as a whistleblower. He did something this the public service. You know i spent years making films. Not to get the easy answers. Kind of reject the sort of its sad. Ill say certainly i dont think hes a traitor. My personal opinion. What i think is you know, more important is you know, in my film, people kacan make their own conclusions. Im not interested in films where its just my opinion that comes through. The film shows an hour in a hotel room with with snowden and grengreenwald. And i think you get a sense of why he did what he did. And i personally believe it was in the public interest, and i think that we live in a democracy. And in a democracy, these kinds of huge decisions should not happen in secret. We shouldnt have secret courts and secret interpretations of laws and secret powers to surveil citizens who have been suspected of nothing which is what he revealed. And i think that im confident that history will be grateful that hes come forward because it allows us to be informed and make decisions. So how do you respond then to persons including president barack obama on down who have still tried to make the argument that there was a wait, weve done this if snowden wanted this. With respect to the with thepresident i dont know what that would have been. Its almost laughable that people make the argument that senators and congressmen and others, that theres a way to go about it, its unlawful. How else will he have done . About w all with all due respect, look at the context. President obama has come down hard or whistle blowers than any president in history. Hes also come down hard on journalists. We have the case of the a. P. Having phone records subpoenaed. We have james rosen, defined as a coconspirator i think thats the darkest hour of holders term. I think love eric holder. As a. G. He failed miserably. That was his darkest time. I digress. Snowden was paying attention. He also paid attention to the case of William Benny and thomas drake. They had gone internally to issue complaints. I mean William Denny didnt go to the press. And he went instead to the congress to say these are things that he believed to be in violation of the constitution. And what happened was is he, thomas drake and two others were put under investigation. William benny in particular had the fbi show up at his house with guns. And so this is somebody who was in the nsa for over three decades. So i think snowden looked at what was happening in that context of the crackdown on but many people like my colleague you know jeremy cahill, define it as a war against whistle blowers and a war against journalism or investigative journalism. The governments come down harder on people trying to inform the public than they have on people who have engaged in torture, for instance. These are complicated times. I think snowden looked at the options and didnt think that there was a way to internally raise concerns about this. So he statewided to go ed he decided to go to the press. We talked earlier about your project in began tan meguantanamo. And then president obama and connecting the dot. What do you make of all the promises and commitments made by the president on the campaign trail about guantanamo, what would happen . Youve talked about it. Youve done a film about it. Its been in the papers week in, week out. And guantanamo still reminutes open. What do you make remains open. What do you make of it . I dont think historys going to look good on it. I think well look back and ask the question. I think our greatest strengths are that were a country that has a constitution, and we should be based on principles due process, rule of law. And guantanamo strayed so far outside of that. I mean, my feeling is that after 9 11 we you know weve engaged in policies that i thinoi sa dont withstand scrutiny and that violate our fundamental principles. I think that theres been a sort of moral vacuum thats resulted. I think its unfortunate that i thought obama of going to close guantanamo. I think a lot of people did. I think that somehow, you know, people have let fear guide us when i think we should be guided by our principles and by rule of law. Yeah. Ive lost count of how many times in this conversation you used the word we. And you obviously use the word we because you are an american citizen. Although i happen to know you dont live in the United States anymore. You live in europe. Well give you that in a minute. I do know what it is its the government, im sorry. Which leads to my question, what what happens you were talking writ law about what happens to journalists doing the work youre doing. You mentioned jeremy cahill, love this guy and others. If good night personal to the extent youre possible if i get personal to the extent youre possible. What happens when you do these films, particularly about a guy they want more than anyone else in the world now. What happens to a filmmaker who decides to do this kind of work, particularly engaging a guy like Edward Snowden whats your life been like . I mean, right now im based in berlin. But i also have a home in newi lc york. Ive been working between. But i relocated to berlin to work on this film about the nsa because of my experience of being put on a watch list. I was you went to berlin to do a movie about our nsa . Right. But that because why . Because starting in 2006, i started being detained every time i would cross the u. S. Border. I would be pulled aside and would be questioned. And id have my photo my notebooks photocopied ive had my computer confiscated. This went on for six years. Every time i traveled. As a journalist entrusted with protecting source material, it became hard for me to say that. I made a decision before i was contacted by Edward Snowden to edit the film i was making about the nsa because im alr