Approach. And churchill wanted to push it forward. And he saw the englishspeaking peoples as away of insurancing that that was guaranteed. Rose also this evening, a new film called foxcatcher starring steve carell, vanessa redgrave, Channing Tatum and dected by ben the bennett pillar. Hi seen capot, and obviously steve said that piece of work speaks for itself. And i knew i wanted to work with himment and then we started just talking about the story. And i done think he had a script then. And so i wept and rezferpd the characters and i hadnt i didnt have any knowledge of the story beforehand. And really just fell in love with the idea of this world that i dont think nips seen before in film. In a deep way. Rose we conclude with the essayist Daphne Merkin, her book is you will cad the famed lunches. Ef retime i start an essay again, i think hear we go again. I think a mixture of skin, placing and some interesting idea about the about the person in that in setting the scene. Like some perception you have that hasnt been out there. Rose Boris Johnson, steve carell, vanessa redgrave, Channing Tatum, director Bennett Miller and essayist Daphne Merkin when we continue. Funding for charlie rose is provided by the following additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose Boris Johnson is here. He is, as you know, the mayor of london. He has served in that role since 2008. This summer he announced his intention to stand for election to the United Kingdom parliament in the 2015 general elections. A lot of people read a lot into that. His latest book is about winston churchill. It is called the churchill factor how one manmade history the wall street journal reports there is a long history of ambitious burn shall their leadership credentials from profiles in courage to the audacityofhope that is from john f. Kennedy to barack obama. The churchill book is more like jfks than obama. It drops aical asal hint about candidacy. All from the wall street journal. He would deny it all. Im pleased to have boris general son back at this table. Its a great honor to be back. Rose so why did you write this then . I wrote it. Rose how many books are there on churchill. Probably about a hundred a year. But what the churchill family and the churchill estate said was they had the 50th anniversary of his death coming up next year. And they genuinely felt that although there is a huge weight of scholarship about churchill, there wasnt a book that tried to bring it together into argue again to a new generation the churchill was the great man that i think he was and the people of my generation think he was. I think the younger generation, he is receding a bit. Hes fading. Rose because world war ii is fading . Because because the vastness of his achievement is slowly being lost to people. I think it was a survey that showed that most people think that he is a an Insurance Company advertisement, the dog, an Insurance Company called churchill with a dog pass cot. Thats what young people think. So it was an attempt to bring him to life again for a new generation. And to show the sheer scale of what he achieved, but also why he was the only guy who could have possibly achieved it. How it came about that in may 1940, business an and the world was on the brinkofabsolute disaster. Rose paris had been captured. Paris was gone, the french were hoping. Rose right. That we would do a deal with hitler because that what palliate their own indignity, their own hum iliation. Was over there arguing, chamberlain, halifax, all the appeasers in the tory party were telling churchill, do this, make a deal with hitler. Rose mack a deal with hitler. And if he had, you would have had a nazidominated europe. Rose continent. Would you have had an epic disaster for humanity, its possible after all that hitler with have been able to invade russia successfully earlier. Who knows what would have happened. Rose instead he had to front a two front war. And he tried to go to moscow and that redale derailed everything. Absolutely. And churchill always knew that if he could hold on for long enough, hitler what lose because in the end, the americans would come in. That was his whole strategy. Rose and he tried and it worked. In the end it worked. Two years and four months before. Rose a good portion of the time he was trying to get rass velt to do it all those areas, john meacham road a good book about roosevelt and churchill. Its a wonderful subject. Because, you know, dont forget churchill, though his mother was american and he came to this city in 1895 when he was only 20. He loved america. But he also i must confess to you, there was also a part of churchill that felt a certain sadness about americas eclipsing of britain. And in the 20s. And i will be honest, in the 20s and in the 30s he became so antiamerican that clementine at one stage tells him he couldnt be foreign secretary because of the level of his feelings. You know, because america was. Rose but it was jealous jealousy. I think that is the rit word. I think its with a feeling that america was blowing britain off the elbowing britain elbowing, which was true. And. Rose and it want into high ger after the war. And public of churchill said of the great deal by which america helped britain to fight on and supplied those planes and those ships. He said it was the most unsordid act in history am but in private he said britain was whatever it was, he should have gonement and i think he regretted it. And dont forget that at the end of his political career, when hes got his cabinet around for the last time in 1955, he has two pieces of advice. One man is spirit. Whatever that may be. And and second, never be separated from the americans. When you set down this book is about what is greatness and how do you get there. It seems like this is a man who wanted to be great. And thought about it and did things that he thought would put him on that. Thats very as future, thats right. I think thats it. There is a great element in churchill of self selfassessment. He knows exactly who he has got napoleon in his sights, nelson, both of them on his desk. Churchill, dont forget was not he was five foot six and a half inches tall, maybe five foot seven. His chest 31 inches. He was a shrimpy guy who sort of built himself up. Literally using dumbbells and but morally also. Dow have a feeling, though, that he believes so much in his own capacity that he could be britain. That he was willing to do almost anything to make that happen. Yeah. Whether it meant shifting parties, whatever was necessary. He did get power. Oh, yes, yes. And he is famous. There would be no one like him before or since in british politics. He rats on the tories in 1904. And then rejoins them, of course he would claim that he had been consistent because the tories had abandoned free trade and then came back to free trade. He rejoins them in the 20s. And then becomes chancellor of the exchequer, this renegade, this traiter is made chancellor of the exquicker. Rose why was that, because they recognized that he had real ability . They did. Everybody knew throughout his political career that they were dealing with somebody who was truly exceptional am they all pointed it out. So. Rose everybody knew that. They knew. Actually in some ways. Rose but not to be trusted. Correct. He was thought of as a loner, as a maverick, as a guy who continually got things wrong. But then in the late 30s, he takes this gigantic political position, this bet that hitler is wrong. Hitler is a bad guy. He can see it. Because hes been out there to write he had been out there in the early 30s. He had seen the marching kids and all that. And he smells it. And he was totally right. Rose you wrote he wasnt what people thought of as a man of principles. He was a glorychasing, goldmouth hanging opportunist. He was. He took positions that crumpled beneath him. But the amazing thing was he survived. And the other thing about the positions that he took was that he never at any stage was morally compromised. You know, when politicians get things wrong in our times, very off ep there will be some element where their own honor and integrity, they will have been shown to have lied about something or whatever. You know, nixon. Rose . But that was never the case of churchill. Rose it is said about him that he was that he didnt his father didnt spend a lot of time with him. His father was not there for him. And so therefore he was overly protective. Yeah, he had a very complicated relationship with his father. And a tragic he writes called the dream after the war in which he imagines that the shade of ran dalf, sitting in an armchair next to me. And when ran dalf is saying well, you know, my boy, nice to see you. Tell me about the world today. And he randolph doesnt understand that church hill has become the greatest living englishman. And you know, his father forms the impression that he is sort of a retired former army officer who is interested in painting. And churchills bursting to explain his success to his father when puff, evannishes. And you have this sense of churchill yearning to impress his father. His father wrote him terrible letters when he was at school saying he was a confounded young wastrel and all this sort of thing. Rose you know how many come to this table and central to their psyche is this idea, and testifys said it, i did okay, pop. Yeah. Rose the whole notion that well, the monkey on churchills back, as it were, was that. His relationship with his mother was fascinating. A woman, extraordinary woman. And new yorker, of course, she she was very influential in his early life. Rose what was his greatest skill . Other than his will to prevail. Other than his will to prevail. I was going to say it was never giving in. But i think the thing that he had that i found stunning in writing the become and researching about it. There are many people without dig into churchill come out with this feeling. He was his energy, his industry. I mean it was like the toy with the battery that just keeps going. And churchill is not like anybody or any journalist i know. Codrink, red wine at dinner. Rose a lot. Red wine, white wine, brandy. You know, i will quarters. Rose prodigious. He would then get up from the table, 10 00, go upstairs to his office in he would walk around while some poor secretary was waiting up all night. Rose and talk. And dictate, dictate until like 2 00, 3 00 in the morning. Rose dictate what, a book, speeches. Speechesing memo. And that way he composed not just more words than dicen, not just more words than shakespeare, but more words than dickens and shakespeare combined. And he won the noble prize for literature. And his paintings still sell for about a million dollars. Rose thises with a nobel prize he won for his history with the second world war. Thats right, that is right. And some people say well, it was the sweds feeling a little gillee about their tra vesty during the war and maybe the Nobel Committee felt that you know, but still, the nobel prize is the nobel prize. Rose an incredible amount of work. Extraordinary. Rose what is interesting about it is, i once visite visited and they showed me where he would write. Yeah. Rose and he would he would have everybody who was present at anything. Thats right. Rose during the war, they were in the room, they would send him their story of what they remembered. Thats right. Rose and then he would write his own version which would be consist with that. He would have. He would take everything and put his stamp on it. Thats completely right. It was a gigantic word processor of a house. Would you have the search engines, the data bank. He with press the key and scuttle up with this paper. That is how he did it. Rose when i asked about the greatest thing, i thought was i think it was i mean charm, charm. Wednesday had a fantastic lit ree gift. An ability to speak directly to people, to move them, to sway them. Rose but he understood it too. Because it is said that, you know, he built the pauses and the halting because he knew that if it appeared that this was something he is just thinking, and had a more powerful appeal, he would pause as if looking for the right word. Which of course is completely because his speeches were very far from unpremeditated. They were declarations of text, on which he had worked very hard. And his secret was using short anglo sackson words when he really wanted to grip he would say youni know, well fight them on the beaches. Well fight them on the hills, on the streets. Well never surrender. The only word is surrender. He like using shortening lish words. Rose he liked films too. He did like films. Rose we would have these movies shown. I know people who were there during world war ii. But they would talk about going out to his house for movies. They would. Rose on the weekends of the war. Im afraid he watched the Lady Hamilton by alexander 17 times. And wept every time. He was a prodigious blubber. He wept at almost everything. But he was an emotional guy. Rose you would know this better than i may remember. Jack kennedy, the president said mobilized the english like he was an add either way they are heroes. They are both heroes. De mobilized. And he sent it into battle. And the great thing about his speeches and his wartime broadcast was that they were aimed not just at the british, but he always had an eye to america. And he knew that that was the crucial audience. And that if he could reach his motherandas it were, and persuade them, then he would have done his duty. And get them into the war. That was his big achievement. Rose so why did the ungrateful british turn him out of office . It is one of the Great Questions of politics. And i think the answer is blindingly obvious. He had become because he had become somehow detached from the conservative party, he straddled politics. He was above it. He, it was felt possible to vote against the conservative party, without people thought that it was okay to be antitory. And yet to support churchill. So the labor slogan was cheer for churchill, vote for labor. Rose thats pretty good. Thats a good one. And so they kicked him out. And and but again, you know, look at that. He gets this incredible poke in the eye. Hes 70. What does he do . He keeps going. He never gave in. And he gets back into government. Rose this is what the economist say, you know the economist magazine. The semi articulated and perhaps semi conscious musing on contemporary politics that seep from mr. Johnsons analysis in which deep similarities emerge. This is the economist. Your own home group economist. Very great paper. Rose theyre saying you are drawing this comparison because you want people to think of you as a churchill in the making. No, its i explanned the origins of the book which is entirely they just, they pick ited out. They wanted. Rose it had nothing to do with the mayor of london write about winston churchill. I had written an essay about churchill which they liked. They thought captured something that they wanted to get over. And it was a chance to expand that message. And to try to bring him to but i no,i have more in common with a three today sloth or whatever. One eyed pterodactyl than churchill. So and. Rose but you also, i mean he had they said this about lincoln too. Ambitious. You know how many times lincoln lost an election before he was elected president . Like ten times. Amazing also loz lost. Ran for the congress, defeated. Ran for the senate, defeated. But he kept because ambition burned in him. Thank good continues did. Thank goodness. Rose its not a bad thing. Not a bad thing. Not a bad thing. Rose so fess up. Yeah, yeah, no, no. I got 18 months to go as mayor. And then ive got to finish that off and do my bestment and then well see what happens. But. Rose so well see what happens. Were thinking about it, but well see what happens. No, i know what will happen in london. London will continue to make progress i hope very much and we will continue to do things. Rose the great urban experiment in london is alive and well . It is, it is. You know, it is always wonderful to be here in new york. Weve got a lot to learn from each other as great cities. But london is going gangbusters at the moment. There is no question. Were fortunate. The objective now is going to be for common ground, weve got to see the london affect spilling out across the rest of the country. Thats what we want. Rose the thing about churchill and seeing america becoming, you know there are those who look at america and they look at china. And they say that china is coming. Uhhuh. Rose theyre going to make in their 21st century will be chinas. I think thats interesting. And i think its one of the reasons why people will think about churchill and study what he had to say. Because what he thought was that britain and america, with american firmly in the lead, represented values. Ideas of freedom and democracy. Free speech, independent judiciary, habbeas corpus, whatever, that were incredibly important. And that were actually peculiar to those englishspeaking cultures, he thought. This was his and actually, theres a lot of truth in that. And those ideas are not banal, theyre not trite and theyre not uncon cessed. Uncontested there are many parts of the world including china or russia or wherever that dont subscribe to that approach. And churchill wanted to push it forward. And he saw the englishspeaking peoples as a way of insurancing that that was guaranteed. And he saw america as the gaurnt err of that. And i think that the people of this earth are going to want america to play that role for as long as im around. And i think that will mean that in america, the idea of america losing a position of moral leadership in the world is very remote. I want america, i think the world should want america to retain that position. The book is called the churchill factor. How one manmade history. The mayor of london, Boris Johnson. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Rose foxcatcher is a new movie by bennett Bennett Miller based on the true story of john dupont and his relationship with olympic wrestlers. Here is the trailer for foxcatcher. Do you have any idea who i am . Some rich guy calls you on the phone. Who wants to speak with you about what you hope to achieve. What do you hope to achieve, mark . I want to be the best in the world. Good. Heres a key for you. Also a big house is off limits. Okay. Coach dupont has a vision. He would like to be the observation training site for the national team. What are you thinking . This is it. This is all that weve ever wanted. Mark, you have been living in your brothers shadow your entire life. Its your time. Now promise me. You are everything i have. I am leading men, and im giving america hope. I spent my lifetime looking for a fath