He didnt like rung around the country raising money and all of this stuff that required candidate. But being Vice President , that had some appeal. Rose where was jim bakker on this, do you know. Jim bakker is an old friend of both president bush 41 of course and dick cheney. At the time they were very close and he i think was supportive. But he did urge president bush 43 as he was coming rumsfeld. Rose he wanted it too. He did too. He reminded the new incoming president remember what he did to your dad, there was bad blood between rumsfeld and bush 41. Rose what does that say about the president when his father and others said dont go there. Does that suggested he had an independent mind. It suggests he wanted an independent break. He wanted to bring in some folks from his fathers administration but its an interesting thing to say of course because all he needed to do was ask his dad. But he wanted to make a break and he wanted to sort of put down his own marker. Rose what role did he think the Vice President would play. Did he as some suggested think the Vice President would be a kind of Prime Minister . I dont think he saw him that way. He saw him first among equals as advisors. He did lean on him and empower him. One thing is in researching this book is busting some of the mythology, right. The mythology that cheney was the public master is over stating. Its overly simplistic. But it was significantly influential. He was given the run of a lot of different important issue areas. He was able to have a weekly lunch alone with the president where he gets to lay out his case for things unrebutted by anybody else. He willed this sort of quiet power. Actually you think of him as being this robust force in the whitehouse but in meetings he would sit back quietly and not say anything and people around the table would look at themselves and say where is cheney coming from and a lot of times they wouldnt know. Understood when they left the room he was still there left in the room. Rose thats what his father did with Ronald Reagan would not express his opinions a lot in the room with weight. They didnt force the same relationship that his son and cheney eventually did. Rose no, of course not. And with cheney and rumsfeld, then you had the combination of people who were deeply connected with each other. Very much so. Gave cheney his first significant jobs in washington, brought him into the Nixon Whitehouse the forward whitehouse. He was his mentor friend, vacationed together. Eventually owned homes next to each other. They were very very close. It was hard to beat in the first administration. They carry a great deal of swag. And it stayed that way and thats interesting and thats sort of the story of this book. Rose a relationship evolved. Relationship evolved. The day of fire. The title comes by president bushs second term inaugust recall address he uses the phrase a day of fire to describe 9 11 by saying days of fire were in effect saying this is eight years of crises one after the other. Natural disaster, war, financial crises. And as that second term comes along, Vice President cheney finds himself increasingly distant from the president. President bush is moving in a new direction. He wants to repair some of the alliances he feels were fractured in the first term and changed some of the controversial elfments and it becomes so problematic. Rose and the tendency of condaleesa rice. He puts her as the secretary of state and uses her in effect as his proxy to pivot for that second term. She had advocates working on middle east, working on middle east peace. She add indicates diplomacy with north korea. And she advocates closing the cia prisons and overseas and so forth. And she sort of channels that desire by president bush to begin moving in a different direction. Rose theres a couple things ive done over the years having to do on the very subject of peter has. Here they are. Lets a conception, im asking this. That in the second term, you were less influential leading up finally to the disagreement over Scooter Libby. Is that a fair statement. Well, i think i probably had more influence in the first term. But i think my experience was more relevant in the first term. By the second term obviously he didnt put in his time. And so there was usually dependent on what the issues were on things like education, for example. That was his bailywick, he knew it. My side was more financial security. I offered at midterm halfway through the step down if he wanted to get somebody else. I always believed the president did not have that ability. I went to it three times and said mr. President , you need to know if you want to make a change here if you think you can get somebody who can do good work for you or if im carrying too much baggage, you know, im not going to stand in your way, im out of here. First two times he didnt really take me seriously. Third time he did he wealth away thought about it for a couple days and came back and said no dick, youre my guy. Rose the second term, two things. There seems to be more called lisa less dick cheney. Is that fair. Again, this is the perfect example over allowing time to pass so that his historians can awe judge the truth. I know washington this is the kind of stuff i dont like. Rose what dont you like. The washington gossip, so and so was prevalent, so and so wasnt prevalent. Its almost like a zero sum. And the facts will speak for themselves. Rose the Vice President told me he had less influence in the second. I mean that may be his perception, i dont know. He never said that to me and so youre much better getting people to talk than i am. I think whats important is for historians to look at each decision i make first and second term. And they will be able to study the advice i got. And then they will be able to conclude, you know, why i did what i did. Rose so why did he do what he did. He didnt actually deny it, did he. Rose no, he didnt. Said i dont like this kind of discussion. Rose exactly right. He said to me cheney did, exactly. I interviewed him a couple times in the book and he says the same thing. Because i think he sensed that things were not going the way he wanted them to go. Iraq turned out to be messier than he had hoped. The weapons werent there. He got into a second term he wants to redefine his presidency on a more positive basis. He adopts this notion a democracy agenda in his second term inaugural address. Something cheney had nothing to do with. Rose the condaleesas thing. And a more up lifting idea in favor of something instead of against. Rose lets go to the first term. An important aspect of these two is the war against iraqi that invasion. Where was cheney. Cheney was for it from the beginning obviously and after 9 11. Because iraq tells you about the changing role the Vice President plays, all right. In the very beginning 2001, they have a bombing attack on baghdad in retaliation for a no fly zone. President bush isnt aware this is going on and when he discovers it he says i want to talk to dick. The one person he wants to talk to is cheney to understand whats going on why its happening. Comes 20 02 cheney says its time to attack northern iraq. Theres a chemical weapons facility. At that point bush says no. This belies the whole myth that cheney calls the shot. Given what a pain he became later for american forces. Of course he almost singularly, thats too strong probably but very responsible for a lot of sectarian. Rose thats right. Made it worse and worse and worse. Much worse. Rose and finally killed by the special forces. Cheney would say today i would say see if you had done what i said we would have been better off. Bush didnt want to go there yet he wanted a slower more methodical approach toward the confrontation with iraq that eventually leads to the invasion next march. Rose did cheney also have the same point of view. They did. They were both in agreement on the earlier attack which didn happen and they were in agreement with the later invasion which did. On the day he attacks president bush meets with his people in the oval office, hes given intelligence where Sadaam Hussein is. But at the end of the meeting he kicks everybody else out. Its just him and cheney in the room when that decision is made. Because he trusted the seasoned proposal. Rose bob woodward would say he didnt ask. And someone said why. I dont remember why he said powell. The president said because i knew what they thought. That seems crazy to me. Something as serious as going to war and you dont ask somebody buzz you assume you knew what they think. It became inevitable. Nobody tried to stop it. It simply was deciding which direction for the train to go. Rose who started the train was my question. You have to put that at the president s feet. Its his administration. Rose puts on the agenda perhaps and brings it to him. Paul was agitating for it from the very beginning. Even from the day of 9 11 don rumsfeld is bringing this up with some of his aide rose did they think this was going to be easy. I thought they thought it would be easier. He is not on the record unfortunately but i tell people the reason we invaded iraq was afghanistan was too easy. The country in a mood following 911. They wanted to kick some you know what. Rose they essentially left afghanistan alone. We have the cia with the help of some people in the more than alliance. Its really like over. It seemed easy. It seemed like it worked. Rose and they could do it alone. The other thing have you to remember iraq is the period making the decision. Not only do they have 9 11 but they have a series of other things that come up. The Pakistani Nuclear scientists meeting with osama bin laden. The scare at the whitehouse president bush and Vice President cheney were told they might have been infected with a deadly pathogen that wold kill them. Every morning people would tell me every morning they would see this threat matrix and filled with hundreds of different ways people were trying to kill americans and youre president and Vice President in that atmosphere. Saddam hussein with potentially weapons of has destruction is this fixation, we cant allow somebody like that to have those kind of weapons out there. Rose theres a whole lot of things we can talk about. Let me go on. So the second term comes and he decides first hes got to fire don rumsfeld. It takes two years in. Hes very loyal to don rumsfeld long beyond the time his own staff and people in his family thought it would be. Even colin powell says are you going to replace don as well and they said no. Only after 2006 elections and that is about to go badly for the republicans is president finally goes in a different direction. He doesnt ask dick cheney. I asked the Vice President about it and he says he didnt consult with me when he came to me it was a done deal. Which tells you how things had changed. Up until that point there were few major decisions that had been done without consulting the Vice President. This one he knew wouldnt be popular. Rose was dick cheney hands on what they did to colin powell. Dick cheney thought it was time for powell to move on. What powell would tell you is he had said several months before the election he thought it would be good for him to move on after the election. Certainly cheney helped you know make sure that continued to happen. Rose we find what in terms of the president s mind. A sense that hes prepared to challenge what dick cheney wants in the second term. He does, increasingly. Whats interesting is by the end of second term theyre on opposite sides of almost every issue. Theyre on opposite sides not only big things like north korea and middle east peace but also lebanon, syria, climate change, gun rights, gay rights, auto bailout and so on. Really interesting moment so president kicks everybody out of the room except for cheney on the day he goes to war with iraq. Three or four years later hes brought in about this Syrian Nuclear facility and does United States attack that or allow israel to attack that or go another route. Condoleezza wants a diplomatic route. Vice president says we should attack it. Who agrees with the Vice President. No hands go up. Not only does he go in the direction the Vice President wants him to. In this room not alone just the two of them he sort of forced the Vice President to confront his own isolation on this team. Rose lets go to Scooter Libby are. The final break in this eight year partnership. Rose the chief of staff. He was the chief of staff, National Security advisor to cheney. He had been convicted for perjury, obstruction and justice in the cia case. Prosecutors said he lied when he learned about the c. I. A. Background of joe wilson wife who is the critic of the administration and said they mischaracterized intelligence to go to war. And Vice President felt this was a political investigation, it was unjustified conviction. And he went to the president and he says i think you need to pardon scooter libelee on the way out the door the final week of the administration. And he keeps going back to the president again and again and again by his own account. The president is annoyed by this. He doesnt much like pardons to begin with, hes one of the most conservative or stringiest grarnt of pardon in president ial history because he thinks the system is rigged for those who have influence. Here is the ultimate influence asking for a special pleading. He asks the lawyers to look at the case examine the transcript and they meet with libby at the end of the administration. Came back to the president and says we think the jury was justified in their verdict. And the president says thats it. And he tells the Vice President , and its a very unusually harsh moment between the two of them. They both later recount in which the Vice President says to him i think youre leaving a soldier on the battlefield. And its painful. Rose youre leaving a good man wounded in the field of battle. More precisely exactly. And the president is hurt by this. Hes struck and stunned by this because he never heard his Vice President talk to him in such a sharp way. Rose almost judgmental. Very judgmental. In a way, this is the final act of the partnership. After years of frustration he comes to the president and says in effect give me this last thing. Give me what amounts to validation of our partnership that our partnership meant something and the president says no im not going to do the that. Rose cheney talked to you. He did. Rose george bush did not. He did not. He felt a New York Times reporter couldnt be fair. Rose thats what he said. He did say that. You interviewed him saying historian is too early for any historians rose therefore can we ask, do we get more of cheneys point of view who are than bushs point of view because bush refuses. I would have liked to talk to him obviously but i think we have both mens point of view. In the end intifer viewed 275 people for a total of 400 interviews. Chief of staff. Colin powell, condaleesa rice, dawn rumsfeld, mike gerson, karen hughes, josh bolton. All these people. Rose take those people right there you just name, can you sum up most of them. Was there a consensus about big cheney. It was overstate and in their view they circle vented him, Condoleezza Rice in particular announcing the treaty and the carbon of the president and made the candidate issues like the detention policy that the Vice President brings to the president but he signs without a fullon process. Rose dick cheney told me in an interview he says it wasnt a close relationship, it was a professional relationship. Right, yes. Exactly. Rose it was never tha÷ they were never they did not socialize together, they didnt exchange birthday gives or hang out at cam david. If the president wanted to socialize it was Condoleezza Rice, she came for dinner and work outs with him. She has risen as the primary advisor as he becomes to fade in influence. Rose what do you think dick cheney really thought of george bush . I think he respects george bush. I think hes disappointed with george bush. I think he thinks that the president got away from the principles that they together had articulated on National Security in the first term. That he became too concerned with his problems with popularity and too interested in trying to particularly on things like the harden, you know, worry about criticisms he might receive. Rose do you think cheney thought he wasnt tough enough . I think he thinks that, i dont know if i would put it that way. Rose how would you put it. I think he wouldnt say in public way but i think in private my guess is he thinks that president bush just moved away from the principles that they had had. Rose what do you think george bush today in dallas pursuing with a passion painting. When your mind goes back what do you think he thinks of what he did and didnt do. Did he for example ever consider, you know, why and what went wrong. Whether people let him down, whether his presence will always be clouded because of the advice of some people he thought were first right but might not have been. I think he must. Theres a moment late in the administration, its in the book where hes alone in the room in between meetings and hes there with bob gates and mike mullen chairman of joints chiefs. He says when i went into iraq i went around this table and i asked everybody do we have everything we need, do you have everything you need much ever was on board. And he just sits there and nobody in the room knew quite what he meant. But you could see in this moment him feeling quite chagrined about the at vice feeling misled or a little let down. Or justifying his decision on the basis of what hes been told by the advisors. Rose heres what history should teach us. Did they at that time ask the right questions. Well clearly not. Rose not so much, you have everything you need, thats certainly a question you ask. But whats the exit strategy here. What is it you expect to find there. Right. And he