before between donald trump and hillary clinton. now, their lesser known v.p. picks mike pence and tim kaine face off in the most critical night of their political lives. our team is here, chuck todd, savannah guthrie, tom brokaw. traditionally the v.p. debates don't rock the vote. this is not a traditional campaign. >> this is not a traditional campaign. look, it's the big moment, right? a v.p. debate. road block coverage. these candidates are under a spotlight like they've never seen everyone at this teenage to name a v.p. debate that changed the trajectory of any campaign we would all be silent and stumped because it isn't always a huge thing. i think both sides are going to be looking to land a punch. they're sitting around a table. first grade style. will they be able to really do that. >> i was otherwise occupied at the presidential debate. i hear your words were that was not a normal debate. will this be? >> well, if it's up to mike pence, yes, and that's the challenge tonight. can mike pence normalize the debate? normalize the conversation? normalize donald make it as abnormal. they want a continuation of not only what that monday night created but also they would like to litigate the craziest eight days i've ever seen in the history of american presidential politics. >> tom, do these things ever change the outcome? >> well, they haven't so far. it's unlikely they will tonight because after all, they're the spare parts in the presidential race. i think the toughest assignment is for mike pence for the governor from indiana who's full of life is really governed by his faith and in tone specifics, he's had his differences with donald trump along the way but still supports him so that's the one we need to keep our eye on i think. >> a minute away from the start of the debate. let me go to longwood university, andrea mitchell, hallie jackson. i'll ask you both starting with you, hallie, what do the campaigns expect out of their guys tonight is. >> listen, lester, if mike pence is able to reinforce the change versus status quo, i'm told that is what donald trump's campaign will consider a win. republican national committee, by the way, already weighing in on pence. the rnc apparently accidentally publishing its post-debate spin before the debate even happened. praising pence for his best moments, they say, on the economy, on highlighting hillary clinton's scandals. those will be talking points tonight. >> and in fact, tim kaine's job is to make mike pence explain and defend everything that donald trump has been saying about the former miss universe, about his taxes. also about soldiers who suffer from post traumatic stress. so that is a big job for him today. and also, of course, defend hillary clinton. >> all ri thanks to both of you. the candidates are about to come out. the debate about to get under way at longwood university in farmville, virginia. the moderator is elaine quijano of cbs news. we will take you there now as the debate begins. >> good evening from longwood university in farmville, virginia, and welcome to the first and only vice presidential debate of 2016. sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. i'm elaine quijano, anchor at cbsn and news. it's an honor to moderate this debate between senator tim kaine and governor mike pence. both are longtime public servants who are also proud fathers of sons serving in the u.s. marines. the campaigns have agreed to the rules of this the 90 minute debate. there will be nine different segments covering domestic and foreign policy issues. each segment will begin with a question to both candidates who will each have two minutes to answer. then i'll ask follow-up questions to ci candidates. by coin toss, it's been termed that senator kaine will be first to answer the opening question. we have an enthusiastic audience tonight. they've agreed to only express that enthusiasm once at the end of the debate, and right now as we welcome governor mike pence and senator tim >> good to be with you. >> good to be with you, too. >> thank you. an honor. >> nice to meet you. >> nice to meet you. thank you. >> gentlemen, welcome. it truly is a privilege to be with both of you tonight. i'd like to start with a topic of presidential leadership. 28 years ago, tomorrow night, lloyd benson said, "the vice presidential debate was not about the qualifications for the vice presidency but about how if tragedy should occur, the vice president has to step in without any margin for error without time for preparation to take over the responsibility for the biggest job in the world." what about your qualities, your skills and your temperament equip you to step into that role at a moment's notice? senator kaine? >> elaine, thank you for being here tonight. governor pence, welcome. it is so great to be back at longwood 6 65 years ago a young courageous woman barbara johns led a walkout of her high school. she made history by protesting school segregation. she believed our nation was stronger together and that walkout let to the brown v. board of education decision that moved us down the path toward equality. i am so proud to be running with another strong history-making woman, hillary clinton, to be president of the vision of stronger together, building an economy that works for all, not just those at the top, being safe in the world, not only with the strong military, but also strong alliances to battle terrorism and climate change. and also to build a community of respect just like barbara johns tried to do 65 years ago. hillary told me why she asked me to be her running mate. she said the test of a signing of a bill or passage of a bill, it will be whether we can make somebody's life better, whether we can make a classroom better learning environment for schoolkids or teachers, whether we can make a safer -- it's going to be about results. and she said to me, you've been a missionary, and a civil rights lawyer, you've been a city councilman and mayor, you've been a lieutenant governor and governor, and now a u.s. senator. i think you will help me figure out how to govern this nation so that we always keep in mind that the success of the administration is the differencee lives. and that's what i bring to the ticket. that experience having served at all levels of government. but my primary role is to be hillary clinton's right-hand person and strong supporter as she puts together the most historic administration possible. and i relish that role. i'm so proud of her. i'll just say this. we trust hillary clinton, my wife and i, we trust her with the most important thing in our life. we have a son deployed overseas in the marine corps right now. we trust hillary clinton as president and commander in chief. trump as commander in chief scares us to death. >> governor pence? >> well, first off, thank you, elaine, and thank you to longwood university for their wonderful hospitality, commission on presidential debates. it's deeply humbling for me to be here, be surrounded by my wonderful family and senator kaine, it's an honor to be here with you as well, and i just, i also want to say thanks to everyone that's looking in tonight who understands what an enormously important for the last 7 1/2 years, we've seen america's place in the world weakened. we've seen an economy stifled by more taxes, more regulation, a war on coal and a failing health care reform come to be known as obamacare. the american people know that we need to make a change. and so i want to thank all of you for being with us tonight. i also want to thank donald trump for making that call and inviting us to be a part of this ticket. from a place not too different from farmville. i grew up with a cornfield in my backyard. my grandfather had emigrated to this country when he was about my son's age. my mom and dad built everything that matters in a small town in southern indiana. they built a family and a good name and a business and they raised a family. i dream someday of representing my hometown in washington, d.c., but i, honestly, elaine, i never imagined, never imagined i'd have the opportunity to be governor t be sitting at a table like this in this kind of a position. so to answer your question, i would say, i would hope that if the responsibility ever fell to me in this role, that i would meet it with the way that i'm going to meet the responsibility should i be elected vice president of the united states. and that's to bring a lifetime of experience. a lifetime growing up in a small town. a lifetime where i've that works in the great state of indiana. and whatever other responsibilities might follow from this, i would hope and frankly i would pray to be able to meet that moment with that lifetime of experience. >> senator kaine, on the campaign trail, you praised secretary clinton's character including her commitment to public service. yet, 60% of voters don't think she's trustworthy. why do so many people distrust her? is it because they have questions about her e-mails and the clinton foundation? >> you why i trust hillary clinton. here's what people should look at as they look at a public servant. do they have a passion in their life that showed up before they were in public life? and have they held on to that passion throughout their life regardless of whether they were in office or not, succeeding or failing? hillary clinton has that passion. from the time as a kid in a methodist youth group in the suburbs of chicago, she has been focused on serving others with a special focus on empowering families with the children's defense fund, first lady of arkansas, and this country, secretary of state, it's always been about putting others first. that's a sharp contrast with donald trump. donald trump always puts himself first. he built a business career in the words of one of his own campaign staffers, off the backs of the little guy. and as a candidate, he started his campaign with a speech where he called mexicans rapists and criminals and he has pursued the outrageous lie that president obama wasn't born in the united states. it is so painful to suggest that we go back to think about these days where an african-american could not be a citizen of the united states, and i can't imagine how governor pence can defend the insult-driven selfish me-first style of donald trump. >> governor pence, let me ask you, you have said donald trump is, quote, thoughtful, compassionate and steady. yet, 67% of voters feel he is a risky choice. not have the right kind of temperament to be president. why do so many americans think mr. trump is simply too erratic? >> let me say first and foremost that senator, you and hillary clinton would know a lot about an insult-driven campaign. it really is remarkable. at a time when literally in the wake of hillary clinton's tenure as secretary of state, where she was the architect of the obama administration's foreign policy. we see entire portions of the world, particularly the wider mi control. i mean, the situation we're watching hour by hour in syria today is the result of the failed foreign policy and the weak foreign policy that hillary clinton helped lead in this administration and create. the newly emboldened, the aggression of russia, whether it was in ukraine or now their heavy-handed -- >> you both -- >> their heavy-handed add approach. >> you both said -- >> we're going to get elaine, thank you. thank you. >> these guys have praised vladimir putin as a great senator. >> senator, we do have that coming up here, but in the meantime the questions were -- >> senator, i must have hit -- >> -- were about your running mates. >> i also hit a nerve here. >> why the disconnect? >> in a time of great challenge in the life of this nation, where we weakened america's place in the world, stifled american's economy, the campaign of hillary clinton and tim kaine has been an avalanche of insults. to get to your question about trustworthiness, donald trump has built a business through hard times andou he's brought an extraordinary business acumen. he's employed tens of thousands of people in this country. >> and paid few taxes and lost $1 billion a year. >> why the disconnect with your running mates? >> but there's a reason why people question the trustworthiness of hillary clinton and that's because they're paying attention. i mean, the reality is when she was secretary of state, senator, come on, she had a clinton foundation accepting contributions from >> you are donald trump's apprentice. let me talk about this -- >> senator, i think i'm still on my time. >> isn't this a discussion? >> this is our open discussion. >> let's talk about -- >> well, let me interrupt. let me interrupt you and finish my sentence if i can. >> finish your sentence. >> the clinton foundation accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state. >> okay. now i can weigh in. >> she had a private server -- >> i get to weigh in -- >> that was discovered -- >> senator -- >> the pay to play process. >> you have an >> governor pence doesn't think the world's going so well and he, you know, is going to say it's everybody's fault. >> do you? >> let me tell you this. when hillary clinton became secretary of state, governor pence, you know that osama bin laden was alive? >> yes. >> do you know we had 175,000 troops deployed in the battlefield in iraq and afghanistan? do you know that iran was racing toward a nuclear weapon and russia was expanding its stockpile? under secretary clinton's leadership, she was part of the national team public safety team that went after and revived the bin laden and wiped him off the face of the earth. she worked a deal with the russians to reduce their chemical weapons stockpile. she worked a tough negotiation with nations around the world to eliminate the iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. >> eliminate the iranian nuclear -- >> absolutely, without firing a shot and instead of 175,000 american troops deployed overseas, we have 15,000. >> right. >> these are very, very -- >> iraq has been overrun by isis. because hillary clinton failed to renegotiate -- >> more american troops -- >> hillary clinton failed to renegotiate a status of forces agreement. >> no, that is incorrect. >> gentlemen -- >> we removed all of our troops from iraq and isis was able to be conjured up in that vacuum. >> i'd like to -- >> and overrun vast areas of iraq. >> president bush said we would leave iraq at the end of 2011 and elaine, iraq didn't want our troops to stay and they wouldn't give us the protection for our troops and guess what, if a nation where our troops are serving does not want us to >> it was a failure of the secretary of state -- >> we need to move on to the next question. there are a lot of people wondering in this country about the economy. >> right. >> let's turn to the issue of the economy. >> okay. >> according to the nonpartisan committee for a responsible federal budget, neither of your economic plans will reduce the growing $19 trillion gross national debt. in fact, your plans would add even more to it. both of you were governors who balanced state budgets. are you concerned that adding more to the disastrous for the country? governor pence? >> i think the fact that under this past administration of which hillary clinton was a part, we've almost doubled the national debt. it's atrocious. i mean, i'm very proud of the fact i come from a state that works. state of indiana has balanced budgets. we cut taxes. we made record investments in education and in infrastructure. and i still finished my term with $2 billion in the bank. that's a little bit virginia. he actually -- he actually tried to raise taxes by about $4 billion. he left his state about $2 billion in the hole. state of indiana, we've cut unemployment in half, unemployment doubled when he was governor. i think he's a very fitting running mate for hillary clinton because in the wake of a season where american families are struggling in this economy, under the weight of higher taxes and obamacare and the war on coal and the stifling avalanche of regulation coming out ofs hillary clinton and tim kaine want more of the same. it really is remarkable that they actually are advocating a trillion dollars in tax increases which i get that. you tried to raise taxes here in virginia. were unsuccessful. but a trillion dollars in tax increases. more regulation. more of the same war on coal. and more of obamacare that now even former president bill clinton calls obamacare a crazy plan. but hillary clinton and tim kaine want to build on obamacare. they want to expand it program and for all the world, hillary clinton just thinks obamacare is a good start. look, donald trump and i have a plan to get this economy moving again. just the way that it worked in the 1980s, just the way it worked in the 1960s. that is by lowering taxes across the board for working families, small businesses and family farms, ending the war on coal, it is hurting jobs and hurting this economy even here in virginia. repealing obamacare, lock stock and barrel. and repealing all of the executive orders th stifling economic growth in this economy. we can get america moving again. put on top of that, the kind of trade deals that will put the american worker first and you got a prescription for real growth and when you get the economy growing, elaine, that's when you can deal with the national debt. when we get back to 3.5% to 4% growth with donald trump's plan will do, then we're going to have the resources to meet our nation's needs at home and abroad and we're going to have the ability to bring down economy, there's a fundamental choice for the american electorate. do you want a you're hired president in hillary clinton or a you're fired president in donald trump? i think that's not such a hard choice. hillary and i have a plan that's on the table that's a you're hired plan. five components. first thing we do is we invest in manufacturing, infrastructure and research in the clean energy jobs of tomorrow. second thing is we invest in our workforce. from pre-k education to great teachers, to debt-free tuition-free college for families that make less than $125,000 a year. third, we promote fairness by raising the minimum wage, so you can't work full time and be under the poverty level. and by paying women equal pay for equal work. fourth, we promote small business growth. just as we've done in virginia to make it easier to start and grow small businesses. hillary and i each grew up in small business families. my dad who ran an iron working and welding job is here tonight. and fifth, we have a tax plan that targets and ask those at the very top who've benefited as we've come out of recession to pay more. the trump plan is a different plan. it's a you're fired plan and there's two key elements to it. first, donald trump said wages are too high. and both donald trump and mike pence think we ought to eliminate the federal minimum wage. mike pence when he was in congress voted against raising the minimum wage above $5.15 and he has been a one-man bull work the second component of the plan is massive tax breaks for the very top. trillions of dollars of tax breaks for people just like donald trump. the problem with this, elaine, is that's exactly what we did ten years ago, and it put the economy into the deepest recession, the deepest recession since the 1930s. independent analysts say the clinton plan would grow the economy by 10.5 million jobs. basically helps him and if he ever met his promise, and he gave his tax returns to the american public like he said he would, we would see just how much his economic plan is really a trump-first plan. >> on that point, governor pence, recently "the new york times" released part of mr. trump's 1995 tax return and reported he could have avoided paying federal income taxes for years. yesterday, mr. trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little tax as you? >> well, first, let me say, i appreciated the you're hired/you're fired thing. senator, you used that a whole lot. i think your running mate used a lot of pre-done lines. look, what you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government. and if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the the matter is the policies of this administration, which hillary clinton and senator kaine want to economy have run this economy into a ditch. we're in the -- >> 15 million new jobs? >> slowest economic recovery since the -- >> there are millions more people living in poverty today than the day that barack obama with hillary clinton at his side -- >> and the poverty level -- >> -- stepped into the oval office. >> improved dramatically between 2014 and 2015. >> honestly, senator, you can roll out the numbers and sunny side, but i got to tell you people in scranton know different. people in ft. wayne, indiana, know different. i mean, this economy is struggling. the answer to this economy is not more taxes. >> but it's not to give away tax relief to the folks at the top. i am -- >> governor. >> -- interested in hearing whether he'll defend his running mate not releasing taxes. >> absolutely i will. >> governor, with all due respect, the question is whether it seems fair to you that mr. trump said he brilliantly used the lawses to pay as little tax as legally donald trump and hillary clinton and senator kaine. i mean, hillary clinton and senator kaine and god bless you for it, career public servants, that's great. donald trump is a businessman. not a career politician. he actually built a business -- those tax returns that came out publicly this week showed that he faced some pretty tough times 20 years ago. but like virtually every other business including "the new york times" not too long ago, he used what's called net senator, that actually is designed to encourage entrepreneurship -- >> why won't he release his tax returns? >> we're answering the question about the business thing. is -- >> i do want to come back on this. >> his tax returns showed he went through a very difficult time but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used. he did it brilliantly. >> how do you know that? you haven't seen his tax returns. >> because he's created a business that's worth billions of dollars -- >> how do you know that? >> with regard to paying taxes, this whole riff about not didn't pay taxes for years, donald trump has created tens of thousands of jobs and he's paid payroll taxes -- >> let me talk about -- >> senator, i'm going to give you about 30 seconds to respo respond, the question on social security. >> donald trump started this campaign in 2014. he said if i run for president, i will absolutely release my taxes. he's broken his first -- >> he will. >> he's broken his first promise. second, he stood on the stage -- >> he hasn't broken stage last week, hillary said you haven't been paying taxes, he said that makes me smart. so it's smart not to pay for our military, smart not to pay for veterans, it's smart not to pay for teachers and i guess all of us who do pay for those things i guess we're stupid. the last thing i'll say -- >> senator, do you take all the deductions you're entitled to? >> the last thing i want to ask -- >> i do. >> governor pence had to give donald trump his tax returns to show he was qualified to be vice president. donald trump must give the american public his tax returns to show that he's breaking his promise. >> elaine, i have to respond to this. >> you get very little time. >> i'll be -- >> 20 seconds. >> i'll be very respectful. look, donald trump has filed over 100 pages of financial disclosure which is what the law requires. >> but he said he -- >> the american people can review that. he's going -- senator -- >> all right, gentlemen. >> he's going to release his tax returns. when the audit is over. >> i need to ask you about social security. >> richard nixon released tax returns when he was under audit. >> if you can't -- >> gentlemen, the of you when you speak over each other. i would please ask you to wait until the other is finished. >> all right. we're having fun up here. >> the issue of social security. in 18 years when the social security trust funds run out of money, you'll be 76. the committee for responsible federal budget estimates your benefits could be cut by as much as $7,500 per year. what would your administration do to prevent this cut? >> first, we're going to protect social security which is one of the greatest has ever done. it happened at a time when you would work your whole life, your whole life raising your kids, working, being a little league coach or a sunday school teacher, then you would retire into poverty. and social security has enabled people to retire with dignity and overwhelmingly not be in poverty. we have to keep it solvent and we will keep it solvent. and we'll look for strategies like adjusting the payroll tax cap upward in order to do that. here's what hillary and i will not do. and i want to make this very engage in a risky scheme to privatize social security. donald trump wrote a book and he said social security is a ponzi scheme and privatization would be good for all of us. and when congressman pence was in congress, he was the chief cheerleader for the privatization of social security. even after president bush stopped pushing for it. governor -- congressman pence kept pushing for it. we're going to stand up against efforts to privatize social forward, focusing primarily on the payroll tax cap. >> governor pence, i'll give you an opportunity to respond. >> well, thanks, elaine. there they go again. okay? all donald trump -- all donald trump and i have said about social security, we're going to meet our obligations to our seniors. that's it. >> go read the book. >> we said we're going to meet the obligations of medicare. that's what this campaign is really about, senator. i get -- this is the old scare tactic that they roll out, scare the seniors. >> i get all of that. i just -- look -- >> i -- >> there's a question that you asked earlier i have to go back to. >> i can't believe you won't defend your own voting record. >> i have to go back to. look, you're running with hillary clinton who wants to raise taxes by a trillion dollars, increase spending by $20 trillion. you say you're going to keep the promises of social security. donald trump and i are going to cut taxes. >> you're not going to cut tax. you're going to raise taxes on the middle class. >> meet the we're going to be in a mountain range of debt and we're going to face hard choices. >> gentlemen, i want to move on. >> you did ask this question about debt and the debt explosion on the trump plan is much, much bigger than anything on the clint side. >> all right. let me move on now. to the issue of law enforcement and race relations. law enforcement and race relations. after the dallas police shooting, police chief david brown said, "we're asking cops to do too much in this country. everyie cops to solve. not enough mental health funding, not enough drug addiction funding. schools fail. let's give it to the cops." do we ask too much of police officers in this country? and how would you specifically address the chief's concerns? senator kaine? >> elaine, i think that's a very fair comment. i think we put a lot on police shoulders. this is something i got a lot of scar tissue and experience on. i was a city councilman and mayor in richmond and when i came in, we had one of the highest homicide hard over the course of my time in local office with our police department and we reduced our homicide rate nearly in half. and then when i was governor of virginia we worked hard, too, and we did something -- we had really wanted to do. for the first time ever we cracked the top ten, ten safest states because we worked together. here's what i learned as a mayor and a governor. the way you make communities safer, and the way you make police safer, is through community policing. you build the bonds and the police force. build bonds of understanding. and then when people feel comfortable in their communities, that gap between the police and the communities they serve narrows. and when that gap narrows, it's safer for the communities and it's safer for the police. that model still works across our country, but there are some other models that don't work. an overly aggressive more militarized model. donald trump recently said we need to do more stop and frisk around the country. that would be a big polarizes the relationship between the police and the community. so here's what we'll do. we'll focus on community policing. we will focus on and hillary clinton has rolled out a really comprehensive mental health reform package that she worked on with law enforcement professionals. and we will also fight the scourge of gun violence in the united states. i'm a gun owner. i'm a strong 2nd amendment supporter. but i got a lot of scar tissue because when i was governor of virginia, there was a horrible shooting at virginia tech and we learned that through that painful situation that gaps in the background record check system should have been closed and could have prevented that crime. so we're going to work to do things like close background record checks and if we do, we won't have the tragedies that we did. one of those killed at virginia tech was a guy named lebesku, a holocaust survivor. he survived the holocaust then he survived the soviet union takeover of his country then he was a visiting professor at scourge of gun violence. we can support the 2nd amendment and do things like background record checks that make us safer and that will make police safer, too. >> governor pence? >> you know, my uncle is a cop. a career cop. on the beat in downtown chicago. he was my hero when i was growing up. we go up to visit my dad's family in chicago, my three brothers and i would marvel at my uncle when he would come out in his uniform, side arm at his side. police officers are the best of us. men and women, white, african-american, asian, latino, hispanic. they put their lives on the line every single day. and let me say it -- you know, at the risk of agreeing with you, community policing is a great idea. it's worked in the hoosier state. and we fully support that. donald trump and i are going to make sure that law enforcement have the resources and and order to the cities and communities in this nation. it's probably why the 330,000 members of the fraternal order of police endorse donald trump of the next president of the united states of america because they see his commitment to them. they see his commitment to law and order, but they also -- they also hear the bad mouthing. the bad mouthing that comes from people that seize upon tragedy in the wake of police-action shooting to use a broad brush to accuse law enforcement of implicit bias or institutional racism and that really has got to stop. i mean, when an african-american police officer in charlotte named brently vinson, all-star football player who went to liberty university here in the state, came home, followed his dad into law enforcement, joined the force in charlotte, joined the force in charlotte in police-action shooting that claimed the life of keith lamont scott. there was a tragedy. i mean, we mourn with those who mourn. we grieve with those who grieve. we're saddened at the loss of life, but hillary clinton actually referred to that moment as an example of implicit bias in the police force where she used -- when she was asked in debate a week ago whether there was implicit bias in law enforcement, her only answer was that there's implicit bias in eve >> can i -- >> what we ought to do is we ought to stop seizing on these moments of tragedy. we ought to assure the public that we'll have a full and complete and transparent investigation whenever there's a loss of life because of police action. senator, please, enough of this seeking every opportunity to demean law enforcement broadly by making the accusation of implicit bias every time tragedy occurs. >> elaine, people you're afraid to have -- >> i'm not afraid to bring that up. >> if you're afraid to have the discussion, you'll never solve it. and so here's an example. heartbreaking. we would agree this is a heartbreaking example. the guy who was killed in st. paul, who was a worker, a valued worker in a local school. and he was killed for no apparent reason in an incident that will be discussed and will be investigated. but when folks went and explored this situation, what found is that castillo, they called him mr. rogers with dread locks in the school he worked. the kids loved him. he had been stopped by police 40 or 50 times before that fatal incident. and if you look at sentencing in this country, african-americans and latinos get sentenced for the same crimes at very different rates. >> we need criminal justice reform. we do. indiana has passed criminal justice de -- >> i just want to say, those who say -- >> that's not what we're talking about. able to bring up and talk about bias in the system -- >> senator. >> governor pence, governor pence -- >> when african-american police officers involved in a police-action shooting involving an african-american, why would hillary clinton accuse that african-american police officer of -- >> i guess i can't believe you are defending the position that there's no bias -- it's a topic -- >> governor pence, i have a question on that point. >> i did not make that statement. >> your fellow republican, governor pence, senator tim scott who is african-american, recently spoke on the senate floor. he said he was stopped year. >> a u.s. senator. >> he said i have felt the anger, the frustration, the sadness and the humiliation that comes with feeling like you're being targeted for nothing more than being just yourself." what would you say to senator scott about his experiences? >> well, i have the deepest respect for senator scott, and he's a close friend. what i would say is that we need to adopt criminal justice reform nationally. i signed criminal senator, and we're very proud of it. i worked when i was in congress on the second chance act. we have got to do a better job recognizing and correcting the errors in the system that do reflect an institutional bias in criminal justice. but what donald trump and i are saying is let's not have the reflex of assuming the worst of men and women in law enforcement. we truly do believe is not -- >> what would you say to senator, governor? >> law enforcement in this country is a force for good. they are the -- they truly are people that put their lives on the line every single day. but i would -- i would suggest to you what we need to do is assert a stronger leadership at the national level to support law enforcement. you just heard senator kaine reject stop and frisk. well, i would suggest to you that the are besieged by crime -- >> elaine, let me -- >> what would you tell senator scott? >> if i could jump in, i've heard senator scott make that eloquent plea, and look, criminal justice is about respecting the law, being respected by the law so there is a fundamental respect issue here. i just want to talk about the tone that's set from the top. donald trump during this campaign has called mexicans rapists and criminals. he's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. i don't like saying that in front of my he attacked an indiana-born federal judge and said he was unqualified to hear a federal lawsuit because his parents were mexican. he went after john mccain, a p.o.w. and said he wasn't a hero because he'd been captured. he said african-americans are living in hell and he perpetrated this outrageous and bigoted lie that president obama is not a u.s. citizen. if you want to have a society where people are respected and respect law, you can't have somebody at the group that he talks about and i just, again, i cannot believe that governor pence will defend the insult-driven campaign that donald trump has run. >> all right. i want to turn to our next segment now. immigration. your running mates have both said that undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes should be deported. what would you tell the millions of undocumented immigrants who have not committed violent crimes? governor pence. >> donald trump's laid out a plan to end illegal immigration once and for all in to death for 20 years. hillary clinton and tim kaine want to continue the policies of open borders, amnesty, catch and release, sanctuary cities. all the things that are driving -- that are driving wages down in this country, senator. and also too often with criminal aliens in the country, it's bringing heartbreak. i -- donald trump has a plan that he laid with illegal immigration beginning with border security, internal enforcement. it's probably why for the first time in the history of immigrations and customs enforcement, their union actually endorsed donald trump as the next president of the united states because they know they need help. to enforce the laws of this country. and donald trump has laid out a priority to remove criminal aliens, remove people who overstayed their visas. once we have accomplished all of th economy, strengthen the rule of law in the country, make our communities safer once the criminal aliens are out, then we'll deal with those that remain. but i have to tell you, i just -- i was listening to the avalanche of insults coming out of senator kaine a minute ago. >> these were donald -- >> he says -- >> hold on a second. >> it's my time, senator. >> it is, in fact, the governor's time. >> this is your two minutes. >> thanks. i forgive you. he says ours is on insult-driven campaign? did you just hear that? ours is an to be honest, if donald trump said all the things you said he said in the way you said he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. she said they were irredeemable. they were not america. i mean, it's extraordinary. and then she labeled one after another ism on millions of americans who believe that we can have a home and abroad, who believe we can get this economy moving again, who believe we can end illegal immigration once and for all. so, senator, this insult-driven campaign, i mean -- >> governor. >> -- that's small potatoes compared to hillary clinton calling half of donald trump's supporters a basket of deplorables. >> hillary clinton said something on the campaign trail, she minutes. >> we're even. look for donald trump apologizing to john mccain for saying he wasn't a hero. did donald trump apologize for calling women dogs, pigs, slobs -- >> governor. it's his two minutes, please. >> did donald trump apologize for taking after somebody in a twitter war and making fun of her weight? did he apologize for saying african-americans are living in hell? did he apologize for saying president obama was not even a citizen of the united states? you will look in vain to see donald trump er responsibility for anybody and apologizing. immigration. there's two plans on the table. hillary and i believe in comprehensive immigration reform. donald trump believes in deportation nation. you got to pick your choice. hillary and i want a bipartisan reform that will put keeping families together as the top goal. second, that will help focus enforcement efforts on those who are violent. third, that will do more border control and, fourth, it will provide a path to taxes, play by the rules and take criminal background record checks. that's all proposal. donald trump proposes to deport 16 million people. 11 million who are here without documents. and both donald trump and mike pence want to get rid of birthright citizenship. is so if you're born here but your parents don't have document, they want to eliminate that. that's another 4.5 million people. donald trump has said it. deportation force. they want to go house to house, school to school, business to 16 million people. and i cannot -- >> that's nonsense. >> i cannot believe governor pence would sit here and defend his running mate's claim we should create a deportation force so they'll all be gone. >> senator, we have a deportation force. it's called immigrations and customs enforcement. and the union for immigrations and customs enforcement for the first time in their history endorsed donald trump to be the next president of the united states of america. >> you like the 16 million -- >> no, senator, that's plan for open borders, amnesty. >> our plan is like ronald reagan's plan from 1986. >> they call it comprehensive immigration reform on capitol hill. we all know the routine. it's amnesty. you heard one of the last things he mentioned was border security. that's how washington always plays it. >> to. >> governor -- >> we're going to do this -- >> governor pence was against it. >> governor, mr. trump has said -- >> a nation without borders is not a nation. donald trump is committed to restoring b nation. >> so governor, how would these millions of undocumented immigrants leave? would they be forcibly removed? >> i think donald trump laid out a series of priorities that doesn't end with border security. it begins with border security. and after we secure the border, not only build a wall, but beneath the ground and in the air, we do internal enforcement. he said the focus has to be on criminal aliens. we just -- we just had a conversation about law enforcement. we just had a conversation about the there's heartbreak and tragedy that has struck american families because people that came into this country illegally are now involved in criminal enterprise and activity and we don't have the resources or the will to deport them systemically. donald trump has said we're going to move those people out, people who have overstayed their visas. we're going to enforce the law of this country. we're going to strengthen immigrations and customs enforcements with more resources and more perso t then donald trump has made it clear, once we've done all of those things, we're going to reform the immigration system that we have -- >> i just have to -- >> -- where people can come into this country. that's the order that you should do it. border security, removing criminal aliens, upholding the law. senator, i'll work with you when you go back to the senate, i promise you. we'll work with you to reform the immigration system. >> i look forward to working together in whatever capacities we serve in, but i just very clear that he's trying to fuzz up what donald trump has said when donald trump spoke in phoenix, he looked the audience in the eye and he said, no, we're building the wall and we're deporting everybody. he said, "they will all be gone." they will all be gone. this is one of these ones where you can just go to the tape on it and see what donald trump has said. and to add -- and to add to it, and to add to it, we are a nation of immigrants. mike pence and i both are descended from immigrant families. maybe weren't said so great about the irish when they came, but we've done well bying a -- when donald trump say mexicans are rapists and criminals, mexican immigrants, donald trump says about your judge, a hoosier judge, he said judge curuiel was unqualified, up qualified to hear a case because his parents were mexican, i can't imagine how you can zee fend that. >> gentlemen, i'd like to shift now to the theft of terrorism. today is a safer or more dangerous place than it was eight years ago? how's the terrorist threat increased or decreased? senator kaine. >> the terrorist threat has decreased in some ways because bin laden is dead. the terrorist threat is decreased in some ways because an iranian nuclear weapons program has been stopped. the terrorist threat to united states troops has been decreased in some ways because there's not 175,000 in a dangerous part of the world. there's only 15,000. but there are other parts of the world that are challenging. let me tell you this. there's only one candidate who can do it and it's hillary clinton. remember hillary clinton was the senator from new york on 9/11, she was there at the world trade center when they were still searching for victims and survivors. that seared onto her the need to beat terrorism. and she's got a plan to do it. she was part of the national security team that wiped out bin laden. here's her plan to defeat isil. first, we got to keep taking out their leaders on the battlefield. she was part of the team that got bin that will get abu bakr al baghdadi. third, disrupt their ability to recruit on the internet, in their safe havens but fourth, we also have to work with allies to share intelligence. that's the hillary clinton plan. she's got the experience to do it. donald trump can't start a twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the foot. donald trump doesn't have a plan. he said i have a secret plan, he said i know more than all the generals about isil. then he said i'm going to call the generals to help me figure out a plan. and finally he said, i'm going to fire all the generals. he doesn't have a plan. but he does have dangerous ideas. here's four. he trash talks the military. the military's a disaster, john mccain's no hero, the generals need all to be fired and i know more than them. he wants to tear up alliance alliances. nato is obsolete, will only work together dictators. he's got kind of a personal mt. rushmore. vladimir putin, kim jong-un, moammar gadhafi, and saddam hussein. last and most dangerously, donald trump believes, donald trump believes that the world will be safer if more nations have nuclear weapons. he said saudi arabia should get them, japan should get them, korea should get them. when he was confronted with this and told, wait a minute, terrorists could get those, proliferation could lead to nu donald trump said and i quote, "go ahead, folks. enjoy yourselves." i'd like to hear governor pence say what's so enjoyable or comical about nuclear war. >> governor pence. >> did you work on that one a long time? that had a lot of really creative lines in it. >> i'm going to see if you can defend any of it. >> i can defend -- i can make very clear to the american people after traveling millions of miles as our secretary of state, after being the architect of the foreign policy of this today than it was the day that barack obama became president of the united states. it's absolutely inarguable. we've weakened america's place in the world. it's been a combination of factors, but mostly it's been a lack of leadership. i mean, i will give you, and i was in washington, d.c., on the 9/11. i saw the clouds of smoke rise from the pentagon. >> i was in virginia where the pentagon -- >> i know you were. we all lived through that day as a nation. it was heartbreaking. and i want to giv for bringing osama bin laden to justice. but the truth is, osama bin laden led al qaeda. a primary threat today is isis. because hillary clinton failed to renegotiate a status of forces agreement that would have allowed some american combat troops to remain in iraq and secure the hard-fought gains the american soldier had won by 2009, isis was able to and it's overrun vast areas that the american soldiers had won in operation iraqi freedom. my heart breaks for the likes of lance corporal scott zimbowski. he fell in fallujah in 2005. he fought hard through some of the most difficult days in operation iraqi freedom. and he paid the ultimate sacrifice to defend our freedom and secure that nation. and that nation was secured in 2009, but clinton and barack obama failed to provide a status of forces agreement and leave sufficient troops in there, we are back at war. the president just ordered more troops on the ground. we are back at war in iraq and scott, whose mom would always come to memorial day events in new castle, indiana, to see me, and i'd always give her a hug and tell her we're never going to forget her son and never will, scott and the sacrifices the administration created a vacuum in which isis was able to grow. reference in the iranian deal, the iranian deal that hillary clinton initiated, $150 billion -- >> stopping a nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. >> you didn't stop the nuclear weapons program. >> yes, we did. >> you essentially -- >> even the israeli military says it stopped. >> you essentially guaranteed iran will someday become a nuclear power because there's no limitations once the period of time of the treaty comes off. >> governor pence, mr. trump proposed extreme vetting of immigrants from parts of the world that expt does not address many of the recent terrorist attacks in the united states. such as the orlando nightclub massacre and the recent bombings in new york and new jersey. those were homegrown, committed by u.s. citizens and legal residents. what specific tools would you use to prevent those kinds of attacks? >> well, i think it's a great question, elaine, but it really does begin with us reforming our immigration system and safety and security of the american people first. i mean, donald trump has called for extreme vetting for people coming into this country so we don't bring people into the united states who are hostile to our bill of rights freedomfreedoms. hostile to the american way of life. also donald trump and i are committed to suspending the syrian refugee program and programs and immigration from areas of the world that have been compromised by terrorism. hillary clinton and tim kaine want to increase theia refugee program by 500 -- >> i want to tell you about our plan. >> asking about homegrown terrorists. >> first, let's make sure we're putting the safety and security of the american people first instead of hillary clinton expanding the syrian refugee program. >> instead of you violating the constitution by blocking people based on their national origin whether they're dangerous. >> that's not -- that's absolutely false. >> that's what the 7th circuit decided -- here's the difference, elaine. >> the 7th circuit -- >> we have different views on refugee issues and on on are people dangerous? these guys say all mexicans are bad. >> absolutely false. >> with respect to refugees, we want to keep people out if they're dangerous. donald trump said keep them out if they're muslim. mike pence put up a program in place to keep them out if they're from syria. yesterday an appellate court with three republican judges struck down the pence plan and said it was discriminatory. >> those judges said -- >> we should focus upon danger, not upon discrimination. >> to your point, the because there wasn't any evidence yet that isis had infiltrated the united states. well, germany just arrested three syrian refugees -- >> i know -- >> connected to isis. >> they told you there's a right way and wrong way to do it. >> look, if you're going to be critical of me on that, that's fair game. i will tell you after two syrian refugees were involved in the attack in paris that is called paris' 9/11, as governor of the state of indiana, i have no higher priority than the safety and security of >> you bet i suspended that program. i stand by that decision. if i'm vice president of the united states or donald trump is president, we're going to put the safety and security of the american people first. >> can we just be clear, hillary and i will do immigration enforcement and we'll vet refugees based on whether they're dangerous or not. we won't do it based on discriminating against you from the country you come from or the religion that you practice. >> the problem with that -- >> that is completely antithetical to the jeffersonian values -- >> elaine, the our homeland security said we can't know for certain who these people are coming from syria. >> yes, we can. we don't let them know, we don't let them in. if we don't know who they are, we don't let them in. >> the fbi and homeland security said we can't know for certain. err on the side of the safety and security of the american people, senator. >> by trashing all syrians, trashing all muslims? >> senator kaine, let me ask you this, secretary clinton has talked act an intelligence surge. >> yes. >> what exactly would an intelligence surge look like and how would that help with no operational connection to a foreign terrorist organization? >> intelligence surge is two things, elaine. it's two things. it's first dramatically expanding our intelligence capacities by hiring great professionals, but also we've got some of the best intel and cyber employees in the world right here in the united states working for many of our private sector companies. so it involves increasing our own workforce but striking great partnerships with some of our cyber and intel experts in the private sector so with constitutional principles gather more intelligence. but the second piece of this is really, really important. it also means creating stronger alliances because you gather intelligence and then you share your intelligence back and forth with allies and that's how you find out who may be trying to recruit, who may be trying to come from one country to the next. alliances are critical. that's why donald trump's claim that he wants to -- that nato is obsolete and that we need to get rid of nato is so dangerous. is obsolete. look, if you put aside -- push aside your alliances, who are you going to share intelligence with? hillary clinton as the secretary of state who knows how to build alliances. she built the sanctions regime around the world that stopped the iranian nuclear weapons program. and that's what an intelligence surge means. better skill and capacity. but also a better alliances. >> i'd like to turn now to the tragedy in syria. >> can i speak about the cyber security surge at all? >> you can have 30 seconds, governor. quickly. >> well, first, donald trump just spoke about this issue this week. we have got to bring together the best resources of this country to understand that cyber warfare is the new warfare of the asymmetrical enemies we face in this country. and i look forward if i'm privileged to be in this role of working you in the senate to make sure we resource that effort. >> we will work together in whatever roles we have. >> we have an intelligence -- i will also tell you that that hillary clinton had a private server in her home that had classified information -- >> all right, governor, 30 seconds is up. >> -- on it about drone strike, e-mails from the president of the united states of america were on there. her private server was subject to being hacked -- >> i'd like to ask you about syria, governor. >> we can put security first -- >> a full investigation concluded that not one reasonable prosecutor would take any additional step. you donet we have a justice system that does that. and a republican fbi director did an investigation and concluded -- >> all right, we are moving on now. >> senator, if your son or my son handled classified information the way hillary clinton did, they'd be court-martialed. >> that is absolutely false. >> it's absolutely true. >> you know that, governor. >> it's absolutely true. >> gentle hemen, please. >> the fbi did an investigation and concluded there was no reasonable prosecutor who would take it further. >> senator kaine, governor pence, please. i want to turn now to 250,000 people, 100,000 of them children, are under siege in aleppo, syria. bunker buster bombs, cluster munitions, incendiary weapons are dropped on them by russian and syrian militaries. does the u.s. have a responsibility to protect civilians and prevent mass casualties on this scale? governor pence. >> the united states of america needs to begin to exercise strong leadership to prott citizens and over 100,000 children in aleppo. hillary clinton's top priority when she became secretary of state was the russian reset. the russian reset. after the russian reset, the russians invaded ukraine and took over crimea and the small and bullying leader of russia is now dictating terms to the united states to the point where all the united states of withdraws from talks about a cease-fire while vladimir putin puts a missile defense system in syria, while he marshals the forces and begins -- we have got to begin to lean into this with strong broad shouldered american leadership. it begins by rebuilding our military. and the russians and the chinese have been making enormous investments in the military. we have the smallest navy since 1916. we have the lowest number of troops since the end of the second world war. the congress and donald trump will to rebuild our military and project american strength in the world. but about aleppo, and about syria, i truly do believe that what america ought to do right now is immediately establish safe zones so families in vulnerable -- families with children can move out of those areas, work with our arab partners, realtime, right now, to make that happen. and secondly, i just have to tell you that with american strength. and if russia chooses to be involved and continue, i should say, to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in aleppo, the united states of america should be prepared to use military force to strike military targets of the assad regime, to prevent them from this humanitarian crisis that is taking place in aleppo. there's a broad range of other things we ought to do as well. we ought to deploy a missile defense shield hillary clinton and barack obama pulled back on out of not wanting to offend the russians back in 2009. >> your two minutes are up. >> we have to have american strength on the world stage. when donald trump becomes president of the united states, the russians and other countries in the world will know they're dealing with a strong american president. >> senator -- >> hillary and i also agree that the britishment of humanitarian zone in northern syria, provision of international human aid consistent with u.n. security council idea. and hillary also has the ability to stand up to russia in a way this ticket does not. donald trump again and again has praised vladimir putin and it's clear he has business dealings with russian oligarchs who are very connected to putin. the trump campaign management team had to be fired a month or so ago because of those shadowy connections with pro-putin forces. governor pence made the odd claim, he said inarguably, vladimir putin is a better le vladimir putin's run his economy into the ground. he persecutes lgbt folks and journalists. if you don't know the difference between dictatorship and leadership, then you got to go back to a fifth grade civics class. i tell you what offends me, governor pence -- >> that offended any. >> governor pence just said -- governor pence just said that donald trump will rebuild the military. no, he won't. donald trump is avoiding paying taxes. "the new york times" suggested that he probably didn't pay taxes for about 18 years starting in 1995. those years included the years of 9/11. get this. on 9 /11 hillary clinton and donald trump's hometown was attacked by the worst terrorist attack in the history of the united states. young men and women, young men and women signed up to serve in the military to fight terrorism. hillary clinton went to washington to get funds to rebuild her city and protect fir responders, but donald trump was fighting a very different fight. it was a fight to avoid paying taxes so that he wouldn't support the fight against terror. >> the question was about aleppo, senator. >> he wouldn't -- he wouldn't support -- this is important, elaine. when a guy running for president will not support the troops, not support veterans, not support teachers, that's really important. >> right. >> i said about aleppo, we do agree the notion is we have to create a humanitarian zone in northern syria. it's very important. had mentioned no-fly zone. where would you propose setting up a safe zone specifically, how would you keep it safe? >> well, first and foremost, donald trump supports our troops. donald trump supports our veterans. >> he won't pay taxes. >> donald trump has paid all the taxes that he's -- do you not take deductions? how does that work? >> this is about syria. i'd like to ask -- >> honestly, senator, honestly, senator -- >> it is about our troops. >> i understand why -- >> how can you support the troops if you don't pay tax? >> i you want to change the subject. let me be clear on this russian thing. the larger question. >> gentlemen, we're going to have time to get to russia. >> what we're dealing with is the -- you know, there's an old proverb that says the russian bear never dies, it just hibernates. the truth of the matter is the weak and feckless foreign policy of hillary clinton and barack obama has awakened an aggression in russia that first appeared a few years ago with their move in georgia. now their move into crimea, now their move while, all we do is fold our arms and say we're not having talks anymore. to answer your question, we just need american strength. we need to -- we need to marshal the resources of our allies in the region and in the immediate, we need to act and act now to get people out of harm's way. >> and exactly how would those safe zones work? how would they remain safe? >> the safe zones would have to be, as the senator said, there's already a framework for this that's been recognized by the inter. national community. prepared to work with our allies in the region, to create a route for safe passage and then to protect people in those areas including with a new-fly zone. look, this is a very tough stuff. i served on the foreign affairs committee for a decade. i traveled in and out of the region for ten years. i saw what the american soldier won in operation iraqi freedom and to see the weak and feckless leadership that hillary clinton was the architect of in the foreign policy of and talk about -- >> is deeply troubling to me. >> let me talk about the things governor pence doesn't want to acknowledge, elaine. he doesn't want to acknowledge that we stopped the iranian nuclear weapons program. he doesn't want to acknowledge -- >> you didn't. >> -- that hill rifs part of the team that got bin laden. he doesn't want to acknowledge -- >> i just did. >> -- that it's a good thing, not a bad thing, that it's a good thing, not a bad thing we're down from 175,000 troops deployed overseas to 15,000. let me tell you what will really make the middle east dangerous. donald trump's idea that more n weapons. saudi arabia, japan, south korea. ronald reagan said something really interesting about nuclear proliferation back in the 1980s. he said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. and i think that's who governor pence's running mate is. >> come on. >> exactly who president reagan -- >> senator. senator. that was even beneath you and hillary clinton and that's pretty low. >> but do you -- do you think we should will make us safer? >> senator, the -- >> that's what donald trump says. >> ronald reagan also said nuclear war should never be fought because it can never be won. and the united states of america needs to make investments in modernizing our nuclear -- >> can you defend donald trump's claim that more nations should get more -- >> let me go back to this iran thing. i mean, he keeps saying that they prevented -- that hillary clinton who started the deal with the iranians prevented iran from gng >> that's what -- >> they got -- >> israeli joint chiefs of staff is saying right now. >> that's not what israel things. >> you can go check it. >> you wouldn't necessarily know that. i know you boycotted prime minister netanyahu's speech. >> i visited him in his office. >> you boycotted the speech. the point is what this so-called iran deal did was essentially guarantee -- i mean, when i was in congress, i fought hard on a bipartisan to move forward the toughest sanctions. it literally in the history of the united states. >> then hillary used them -- >> we were bringing them to heal, but the goal was always that we would only lift the sanctions if iran permanently renounced their nuclear -- >> elaine, let me just mention -- >> they have not -- elaine, let me finish the sentence. they have not renounced their nuclear ambitions. and when the deal's period runs out, there's no limitation on them obtaining weapons. >> elaine -- >> very quickly, senator. ran ransom payment. >> we need to talk about russia. >> astonishing to the american people. >> six times tonight i have said to governor pence, i can't imagine how you can defend your running mate's position on one issue after the next. and in all six cases he's refused to defend -- >> let's -- no, no, don't put words in my mouth. if he's going to do that, you have to give me time. >> yet, he's asking everybody to vote for somebody that he cannot defend. and i just think that should be underlined. >> gentlemen, let's talk about russia. >> i'm very, very >> i will give you an opportunity to do that -- >> if he wants to take it one at a time, i'll do it one at a time. >> more nations should get nuclear weapons. >> he never said that, senator. >> he absolutely just said it. saudi arabia, south korea, japan. >> gentlemen, russia. russian president vladimir putin invaded ukraine, annexed crimea, provided crucial military support to the assad regime. what steps, if any, would your administration take to counter these actions? senator kaine? >> you got to be tough on russia. let's start with not praising v leader. donald trump and mike pence have said he's a great leader. and donald trump has -- >> you know, we have -- >> -- business dealings, has business dealings with russia that he refuses to disclose. hillary clinton has gone toe to toe with russia. she went toe to toe with russia as secretary of state to do the new s.t.a.r.t. agreement to reduce russia's nuclear stockpile. she's had the experience doing it. went toe to toe with went into georgia and did the same thing with ukraine, more than lodging protest, we put punishing economic sanctions on russia that we need to continue. donald trump on the other hand didn't know that russia had invaded the crimea. >> that was nonsense. >> he was on a tv show a couple months back and said i'll guarantee you this, russia is not going into the crew yan ukraine. he had to be reminded they'd gone into crimea before. hillary clinton has gone toe to toe with russia to work on a s.t.a.r.t., engaged to cap iran's nuclear weapons program, yet stood up to them on issues such as syria and their invasion of georgia. you've got to have the ability to do that and hillary does. on the other hand, in donald trump, you have somebody who praises vladimir putin all the time. america should really wonder about a president trump who had a campaign manager with ties to putin. pro-putin elements in the ukraine. who had to be fired sitting down with vladimir putin, is it going to be america's bottom line or is going to be donald trump's bottom line that he's going to be worried about with all of his business dealings? this could be solved if donald trump would be willing to release tax returns as he told the american public that he would do. i know he's laughing at this, but every president -- >> what's it got to do with russia? >> every president since richard nixon has done it and donald trump said i'm doing business with russia. the only way the american public will see whether he has -- that. >> senator, your time is up. governor? >> well, thanks. just trying to keep up with the insult-driven campaign on the other side of the table. >> you know, i'm just saying facts about your running mate. >> yeah. >> i know you can't defend it. >> senator, please. this is governor's two minutes. >> i have to defend him, senator. don't put words in my mouth that i'm not defending him. >> you're not. >> i'm happy to defend him. most of what you said is completely false. >> i'll run through the list of things. >> senator, please, pence's two minutes. >> this is the alternative universe of washington, d.c., versus reality. hillary clinton said her number-one priority was a reset with russia. that reset resulted in the invasion of ukraine. after they'd infiltrated with what are called little green men. russian soldiers that were dressing up like ukrainian dissidents. then they moved all the way into crimea, took over the crimean peninsula. donald trump knew that happened. he basically the truth of the matter is that what you have in the rise of aggressive russia, which has had increased its influence in iran, it's now because of this deal is on a pathway in the future to obtain a nuclear -- the leading state sponsor of terror in the world in iran now has a closer-working relationship with russia because of hillary clinton and barack obama's foreign then, of course, syria, i mean, it really is extraordinary. this, syria is imploding. you just asked a very thoughtful question about the disaster in aleppo. isis is headquartered in raqqah. it is -- isis from raqqah has overrun vast areas that a great sacrifice the american soldier won in operation iraqi freedom. yet, senator kaine still sits here, loyal soldier, i get all that. saying that the foreign policy of made the world more secure. it really is a stoni ish -- >> we -- >> we delivered $400 million in cash to, as a ransom payment for americans held by the radical mullahs in tehran. >> governor, just today mr. trump said, quote, putin has no respect for hillary clinton and no respect for obama. why do you think he'll plain and simple. >> business -- >> donald trump -- that's nonsense. donald trump -- >> donald trump's son says that the trump organization -- >> please, senator. i'll give you a chance to respond. >> we're going to rebuild our military. and let me -- this whole putin thing. look. america is stronger than russia. our economy is 16 times larger than the russian economy. america's political system is superior the crony, corrupt, capitalist system in russia in every way. when donald trump and i observe that as i've said in syria, in iran, in ukraine, that the small and bullying leader of russia has been stronger on the world stage than this administration, that's stating painful facts. that's not an endorsement of vladimir putin. that's an indictment of the weak and feckless leadership of hillary clinton and to the tape on it. governor pence said inarguably, vladimir putin is a better leader than president obama -- >> that is absolutely inaccurate. >> and i just think a guy -- >> said he's a stronger -- he's been stronger on the world stage. >> no, you said leader. and it -- i'll just say this, governor. >> you just said better. >> if you mistake leadership for dictatorship and can't tell the difference, a country that's running its economy -- >> here we -- this is the grade school thing again? >> if you can't tell the difference, you shouldn't be commander in chief. >> yeah. >> what donald trump's sons say they have all these business dealings with russia. those could be disclosed with tax returns but they renews to do them. americans need to worry about whether donald trump will be watching out for america's bottom line or his own bottom line. >> senator kaine, what went wrong with the russia reset? >> vladimir putin. vladimir putin is a dictator. >> what would you do differently? >> vladimir putin is a dictator. otherwise doesn't know russian history and don't know vladimir putin. hillary clinton knows exactly who this guy is. john mccain said i look at his eyes and i see kgb and hillary kind of has that same feeling. how do you deal with him? you've got a -- we do have to deal with russia in a lot of different ways. there are areas where we can cooperate. so it was hillary clinton who worked with russia on the new s.t.a.r.t. treaty to reduce the nuclear weapons stockpile. it was hillary clinton that worked with russia to get them engaged in a comty to stop the iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. she's not going around praising vladimir putin as a great guy, but she knows how to sit down at a table and negotiate tough deals. this is a very challenging part of the world and we ought to have a commander in chief who is prepared and done it rather than somebody who goes around praising vladimir putin as a great leader. >> all right. i'd like to ask about north korea, iran and the threat of nuclear weapons. north korea recently nuclear test. >> right. >> what specific steps would you take to prevent north korea from developing a nuclear-armed missile capable of reaching the united states? governor pence. >> well, first, we need to make a commitment to rebuild our military including modernizing our nuclear forces. and we also need -- we also need an effective american diplomacy that will marshal the resources of nations in the rim to put pressure on north korea, on kim jong-un, to abandon his nuclear ambitions. it has to remain the policy of the united states of america. the denuclearization of the korean peninsula. plain and simple. and when donald trump is president of the united states, we're not going to have the kind of posture in the world that has russia invading crimea and ukraine, that has the chinese building new islands in the south including north korea flouting american pour. we're going to go back to the days of peace through strength. i have to tell you that all this talk about tax returns and i get it, you know, you want to keep bringing it up. it must have -- but here -- hillary clinton and her husband set up a private foundation called the clinton foundation. while she was secretary of state, the clinton foundation accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign governments and foreign donors. now, you all need to know out there, this is basic stuff. foreign donors and certainly foreign governments cannot participate in the american political process. they cannot make financial contributions. the clintons figured out a way to create a foundation where foreign governments and foreign donors could donate millions of dollars and then we found, thanks to the good work of the when she was secretary of state were given to major donors of the clinton foundation. when you talk about all these baseless rumors about russia and the rest, hillary clinton -- you asked the trustworthy question at the very beginning. the reason -- >> governor, your two minutes -- >> -- trust hillary clinton is because they're looking at the pay-to-play politics she operated with the clinton foundation through her private server while she was secretary of state. >> your two minutes are up, governor. enough is enough. >> on the foundation, i am glad to talk about the foundation. the clinton foundation is one of the highest rated charities in the world. provides aids drugs to about 11.5 million people. it helps americans deal with opioid overdoses. it gets higher rankings for its charity than the american red cross does. the clinton foundation does an awful lot of good work. hillary clinton as secretary of state took no action to did an investigation and they concluded that everything hillary clinton did as secretary of state was completely in the interest of the united states. so the foundation does good work and hillary clinton as secretary of state acted in the interest of the united states. but let's compare this now with the trump organization and the trump foundation. the trump organization is an octopus-like organization with tentacles all over the world whose conflict of interest could only be known if donald trump would release his tax returns. his sons have said that the organization has a lot of business dealings in russia and remember the trump organization is not a non-profit. it's putting money into donald trump's pockets and into the pockets of his children, whereas the clinton foundation is a non-profit and no clinton family member draws any salary. >> the trump foundation is a non-profit. >> in addition, donald trump has a foundation. the foundation was just fined for illegally contributing of a florida attorney general. they made an illegal contribution and then they tried to hide it by disguising it as somebody else and the person they donated to was somebody whose office was charged with investigating trump university. this is the difference between a foundation that does good work and a secretary of state who acted in accord with american interests and somebody who is conflicted in doing work around the world and won't share with the american public what he's doing and what those conflicts are. give you 30 seconds to respond because i know you want to. again, i would remind you both this was about north korea. >> thank you. thank you. the trump foundation is a private family foundation. they give virtually every cent in the trump foundation to charitable causes. >> political contributions? >> less than 10 cents on the dollar. the clinton foundation has gone to charitable causes. >> $20,000 portrait of donald trump? >> less than 10 cents on the dollar, the clinton foundation has >> it's been a platform for the clintons to travel the world, to have staff. but honestly, senator, we would know a lot more about it if hillary clinton would just turn over the 33,000 e-mails that she refuses to turn over that were in her private server. we'd have a much better picture of what the -- >> senator kaine, if you had intelligence that north korea was about to launch a missile, a nuclear-armed missile, capable of reaching the united states, would you take preemptive action? f president should take action to defend the united states against imminent threat. you would have to determine what your intelligence was, how certain you were of that intelligence but you would have to take action. you asked the question about how do we deal with a north korea? i'm on the foreign relations committee. we just did an extensive sanctions package against north korea and interestingly enough, i lain, the u.n. followed and did virtually the same their veto in the security council to veto a package like that. they're starting to get worried about north korea, too. so they actually supported the sanctions package even though many of the sanctions are against chinese firms. chinese financial institutions. so we're working together with china and we knee to. china is another one of those relationships where it's competitive, it's also challenging, and in times like north korea, we have to be able to cooperate. hillary understands that very well. she went once famously to china and stood up meeting and looked him in the eye and said, women's rights are human rights. they didn't want her to say that, but she did. but she's also worked on a lot of diplomatic and important diplomatic deals with china and that's what it's going to take. the thing i would worry a little bit about is that donald trump owes about $650 million to banks including the bank of china. i'm not sure he could stand up so tough to the people who have loaned him money. >> all right. i'd like to turn to our next segment now. and in this i'd like issues. you have both been open about the role that faith has played in your lives. can you discuss in detail a time when you struggled to balance your personal faith and a public policy position? senator kaine. >> yeah, that's an easy one for me, elaine. it's an easy one. i'm really fortunate. i grew up in a wonderful household with great irish-catholic parents. my mom and dad are sitting right here. i was educated by jesuits at rockhurst high school in kansas city. my 4 10 days. i worked with jesuit missionaries in honduras, now nearly 35 years ago. they were the heroes of my life. i try to practice my religion in a very devout way and follow the teachings of my church in my own personal life, but i don't believe in this nation of 1st amendment nation where we don't raise any religion over the other. and we allow people to worship as they please. that the doctrines of any one religion should be mandated for everyone. church is against the death penalty and so am i, but i was governor of a state and the state law said that there was a death penalty for crimes if the jury determined them to be heinous. so i had to grapple with that. when i was running for governor, i was attacked pretty strongly because of my position on the death penalty, but i looked at voters of virginia in the eye and said, look, this is my religion, i'm not going to change my religious practice to get one vote, but i oath and uphold the law and if you elect me, i will uphold the law. and i was elected and i did. it was very, very difficult to allow executions to go forward, but in circumstances where i didn't feel like there was a case for clemency, i told virginia voters i would uphold the law and i did. that was a real struggle, but i think it is really, really important that those of us who have deep faith lives don't feel like we can just substitute our own views for everybody else in the society regardless of their >> well, it's a wonderful question, and my christian faith is at the very heart of who i am. i was also raised in a wonderful family of faith. it was church on sunday morning and grace before dinner, but my christian faith became real for me when i made a personal decision for christ when i was a freshman in college, and i've tried to live that out however imperfectly er since. with my wife at my side, we followed a calling in the public service where we've tried to keep faith with values that we cherish. and with regard to when i struggle, i appreciate and -- and i have a great deal of respect for senator kaine's sincere faith. i truly do. >> that's shared. >> but for me, i would tell you that for me proceeds out of the belief that ancient principle that where god says, before you were formed in the womb, i knew you. so from my first time in public life, i've sought to stand with great compassion for the sanctity of life. state of indiana has also sought to make sure we expand alternatives in health care counseling for women, non-abortion i'm pleased with the fact we're well on our way in indiana to becoming the most pro-adoption state in america. i think if you're going to be pro-life, you should be pro-adoption. what i can't understand is with hillary clinton and now senator kaine at her side is to support a practice like partial birth abortion. i mean, to hold to the view -- i know senator kaine, you hold pro-life views personally, but the very idea that a child that is almost born into the world could just an athema to me. i know you historically opposed taxpayer funding of abortion. but hillary clinton wants to repeal the longstanding provision in the law where we said we wouldn't use taxpayer dollars to fund abortions. so for me, my faith informs my life. i try and spend a little time on my knees every day, but all for me begins with the value of every human life. >> elaine, this is a fundamental question. a fundamental question. hillary and i are both people out of religious backgrounds. her methodist church experience was really formative of her as a public servant, but we really feel like you should live fully and with enthusiasm the commands of your faith. but it is not the role of the public servant to mandate that for everybody else. so let's talk about we support roe v. wade. we support the constitutional right of american women to consult their own conscience, their own supportive partner, their own minister, but then make their own decision about pregnancy. that's something we trust american women to do that. and we don't think that women should be punished as donald trump said they should for making the decision to have an governor pence wants to repeal roe v. wade. he said he wants to put it on the ash heap of history. we have some young people in the audience who weren't born when roe was decided. this is pretty important. before roe v. wade, states could pass criminal laws to do just that, to punish women if they made the choice to terminate a pregnancy. i think you should live your moral values but the last thing, the very last thing that government should make reproductive choices. and that is the fundamental difference between a clinton/kaine ticket and a trump/pence ticket that wants to punish women. >> no, it's really not. donald trump and i would never support legislation that punished women who made the heartbreaking choice to end a pregnancy. >> why did donald trump say that? why did he say that? >> look, it's -- he's not a polished politician like you and hillary clinton, and so, you know -- >> i would admit that's polished -- >> i'm telling you what the -- >> a great line from the gospel of matthew. fullness of the heart, the mouth speaks. >> yeah. >> when donald trump says women should be punished, or mexicans are rapists and criminals, or john mccain is not a hero, he's showing you who he is. >> senator, you whipped out that mexican thing again. look -- >> can you defend it? >> there are criminal aliens in this perpetrating violence and taking -- >> you want to use a broad brush against mexicans on that? >> he also said and ma of them are good people. you keep leaving that out of your quote. if you want me to go there, i'll go there. there is a choice here. it is a choice on life. i couldn't be more proud of standing with donald trump who's standing for the right to life. it's a principle that senator kaine and i'm very gentle about this because i really do respect you, it's a principle that you that you've supported the hite amendment in the past but that's not hillary clinton's view. people need to understand, we can come together as a nation, we can create a culture of life. more and more young people today are embracing life because we know we are -- we're better for it. we can -- like mother teresa said at that famous national prayer breakfast -- >> this is important. >> -- let's welcome families around the country who can't have children. if we could improve the options so that families that can't have children can adopt more readily -- >> governor, why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves? we can encourage people to support life, of course, we can. why don't you trust women? why doesn't donald trump trust women to make this choice for themselves? that's what we ought to be doing in public life. living our lives of faith, our motivation excitement, convincing each other, dialoguing with each other about important moral issues of the day. on fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own decisions. >> because a society can be judged by how it deals with its most vulnerable. the aged, the disabled and the unborn. i believe it with all my heart and i couldn't be more proud to be standing with a pro-life candidate in donald trump. >> i do have one final question for you both tonight. it has been a divisive specifically are you going to do to unify the country and reassure the people who voted against you? >> that's a really important one. that may be the $64,000 question because it has been a divisive campaign, and, again, hillary's running a campaign about stronger together, and donald trump -- and this is not directed at this man, except to the extent that he can't defend donald trump, donald trump has run a campaign that's been about one insult after the next. we do have to bring the country to so here's what we'll do. hillary clinton was first lady then senator for eight years and secretary of state. and i serve in the senate, and i'm really amazed, elaine, as i talk to republican senators, how well they regard and respect hillary clinton. she was on the armed services committee. she was on other committees. she worked across the aisle when she was first lady to get the chip program passed so that 8 million low-income kids have health insurance in this country including aisle after 9/11 to get health benefits for the first responders who bravely went into the towers and into the pentagon. she worked to get tri care benefits from national guard members including hoosiers and virginians in the national guard. she has a track record of working across the aisle to make things happen. you know, elaine, i have the same track record. i was a governor of virginia with two republican houses, and in the senate, i have good working the aisle because, yeah, i think it's nine to be a democrat or republican or independent, but after election day, the goal is work together. and hillary clinton has a track record of accomplishment across the aisle that will enable her to do just that when we work with the new congress in january. >> governor, how will you unify the country if you win? >> well, thank you, elaine. thanks for a great discussion. >> absolutely. >> tonight. thank you, senator. this is a very challenging time in the life of our weakened america's place in the world after the leadership of hillary clinton and barack obama on the world satage has been followed by an economy that is truly struggling. stifled by an avalanche of more taxes, more regulation, obamacare, the war on coal and the kind of trade deals that have put american workers in the back seat. i think the best way that we can bring people together is through change in washington, d.c. you know, i served in washington, d.c., for 12 years in the states. and i served with many republicans and democrats, men and women of good will. the potential is there to really change the direction of this country but it's going to take leadership to do it. the american people want to see our nation standing tall on the world stage again. they want to see us supporting our military. rebuilding our military. commanding the respect of the world and they want to see the american economy off to the races again. donald trump's entire career has been about building. it's been about -- it's going through hardship just like a businessperson does and finding a way through smarts and ingenuity and resilience to fight forward. when donald trump becomes president of the united states, we're going to have a stronger america. when you hear him say he wants to make america great again, when we do that, i truly do believe the american people are going to be standing taller. they're going to see that real change can happen after decad it. and when that happens, the american people are going to stand tall, stand together, and we'll have the kind of unity that's been missing for way too long. >> all right, gentlemen, thank you so much. this concludes the vice presidential debate. my thanks to the candidate, the commission and to you for watching. please tune in this sunday for the second presidential debate at washington university in st. louis. and the final debate on october 19th at the university of nevada virginia, i'm elaine quijano of cbs news. good night. and so concludes the 90 minute battle between the number twos. the vice presidential candidates in a spirited exchange at times, seated unlike what we saw a week ago in the presidential debate. i'm lester holt in new york. governor -- senator kaine, if you will, being the aggressor in this case. and certainly mike sticking more to policy issues and defending trump policies. i'm here with savannah guthrie, tom brokaw, chuck todd, and nicolle wallace joins us now. nbc political analyst. good to have you both here. your first thoughts? >> you know, i thought it was very interesting. i mean, kaine is probably going to get dinged for interrupting and seeming overeager at points during the debate. he did land quite a few punches against pence, but i think the question will be whether or not with all of that overtalk, those zingers. then you have pence who did an enabled job of talking about what's wrong with the hillary clinton ticket, but when asked at a point-by-point level to kind of defend some of the things that donald trump said, he didn't do that. so i think this may just go down in the long and storied history of v.p. deba debates that don't move the needle all that much when it's all said and done. >> chuck? >> if this were two professional politician, they both prep a debate as you could expect to see if we had a convention -- if you had conventional candidates at the top of the ticket. mike pence did mike pence a lot of good tonight. probably did more good for himself than tim kaine did for himself. but that isn't what tonight was about. it was about donald trump and hillary clinton. and kaine, and i'm with savannah here, his style might be offputting to some, but he was relentless and he was hitting trump left and right, probably used trump's name a heck of a lot more than pence ever mike pence defended as much as he could and then at times just sort of walked away. i think it came across well on television. the question is, does it hold up well post-debate? because he let a lot of charges go unanswered tonight. >> tom brokaw? >> i thought the two of them handled their briefs very well. i thought that the articulation of vice president -- i mean, the vice presidential candidate on the democratic side, senator kaine, he did interfere too mu defended her and went right after donald trump on the vulnerabilities, taxes, putin relationship that he keeps talking about and all those other areas that were getting so much attention. pence i think we all agree did a remarkably good job given the circumstances he was under. he acted as if donald trump is a great champion of the republican party. i was thinking in my own mind all the republicans who have not endorsed donald trump. i thought that was a mishap. >> including mike pence. frankly, for senator kaine. >> my favorite line of the night was that -- somebody was tweeting, tim kaine was running for vice president in 2016, mike pence was running for president in 2020. >> yeah. >> let's go to that point with nicolle wallace. at times kaine kept trying to bring it back to the provocative statements, the gaffes, the insults and calling on pence to defend and he didn't. was that the game plan, you think, going in? >> well, listen, i think we entered the water cooler phase of this campaign and we ab people we are, we watched every tick and every turn of the entire primary, so we know pence had chosen cruz over trump in the primary. if you're just tuning into this campaign, entered the phase, "snl" caricature and what happened get blurred into one and what happened tonight is pebs was the statesman on the stage. he was the inheriter of the reagan-esque mantle. he sat there and what people saw, they tuned in, was a very able and very elegant a bit of a -- he interrupted the moderator who was a woman. i'm not sure how that's going to play with stay-at-home moms, the first asian-american to ever moderate a debate who was literally trampled over by tim kaine who didn't need to. secretary clinton has a comfortable lead. tim kaine went out there like a scrappy boxer trying to beat pence's head in and that wasn't necessary and i don't think it will help the clinton cause. >> let's go to the spin room right now. kellyanne conway, the campaign manager for the trump campaign kellyanne, good to see you. thanks for being with us. >> hi, lester. >> your initial thoughts. each of the men clearly well prepared tonight. each had a task to do. did your guy do it? >> well, pence clearly was the dominant performer tonight. for several of the reasons that have already been mentioned. and the other reason is very clear, he tried to stick to the issues and i have to agree completely with nicolle wallace. i think tonight the clinton campaign will regret saying words like unhinged or interrupting both mike pence and the female moderator. we lost count over there in the hold room on the trump/pence campaign. i think you also see tonight the beginnings of what donald trump has promised as president, he said he will hire the best people. his very first choice showing his judgment, his leadership, mike pence as his running mate. i like the fact that mike pence tonight, sure, people wanted him to defend donald trump, and what their ticket stands for, lester, but he also was able to get in his record as indiana governor whi i really impressive. people always say they like chief executives and here we've got a businessman who's been a chief executive and his running mate who cut taxes for individuals and employers in indiana, who's cut the employment rate in half, who's expanded school choice and charters there. manufacturing jobs. and it's been incredibly, incredibly robust record in indiana. so i think mike pence got the better of tim kaine tonight and i can't imagine after bill clinton stepped on hillary clinton's tonight how she's feeling. >> kellyanne, let me ask you, though, senator kaine continued to bring up the gaffes, the insults that donald trump has well documented has said before. and governor pence didn't defend. why not? >> well, he did, but sometimes the question that was asked by the moderator who respectfully i think should have been deferred to more by senator kaine, she would ask a question and senator kaine would deliver a response where he was trying to spill out alof and those so-called insults. if you actually look at the bottom of the screen, lester, i'm sure the people at home were, you saw the question and heard answers from senator kaine that had no relation whatsoever to the question asked. what i believe what mike pence, one of his finest moments tonight in answering that question, lester, is when governor pence said, excuse me, senator kaine, you and hillary clinton are going to talk about an insult-ridden campaign when you've insulted tens of millions of americans by calling irredeemable? i would add on to that her most recently revealed insult of the sanders support. add together the tens of millions of support of trump and pence, the 22 states bernie sanders beat her in, you're up to 30%, 35% of the country. >> let me bring savannah into this. >> kellyanne, to lester's point here, i think you just did the pence pivot very well, yourself, we saw him over and over again do that pivot to put it back onto hillary clinton, to talk about well is about basket of deplorables worse? when it came down to the point-by-point issues that kaine raised such as did he not pay federal taxes, did he log an almost $1 billion loss in one year when he claims to be this businessman? >> did he embrace putin? >> we didn't really hear a point-by-point rebuttal from pence. why not? >> well, i did hear a -- i did hear governor pence say, savannah, that donald trump has paid a lot in taxes. accountants and lawyers and confirmed he has paid hundreds and millions of dollars in taxes, property, real estate, excise, state, local, and federal payroll taxes, certainly. so the idea -- >> federal income tax. >> the idea that this -- of course, federal income taxes in the years that he had a profit. the one year that somebody gave to "the new york times," 1995, he claimed a loss. and you carry that forward. it's perfectly legal. it's been in the tax code since 1918. i don't remember controlled house and senate trying to change that when they owned washington a couple of years ago. so it wasn't a big priority to them. half a million individuals in the united states of america did exactly what donald trump did in the year he did it in 19995, that's what we do. we appreciate entrepreneurs who want to carry forward the losses. in the case of donald trump end up becoming amazing job creators and successful businessmen. >> all right. kellyanne, i know you got a lot of people that want to talk to you in that room. we'll let you go. >> thank you for having me. >> all right. >> lester, i think the other thing we aught to keep our eye on during this discussion and everything that follows, this was effectively a kind of standoff between these two. it's not going to change the presidential race. the next two debates between the principals will really be what makes the difference in this presidential race. these two guys came in and defended beliefs extremely well. they didn't move, the big, big question who's going to be the next prede in my judgement, at least. >> we're going to take a break. we'll come back. we're going to hear from the clinton campaign very shortly. ? amazing sleep stays with you all day and all night. with sleep number, you choose the exact firmness and comfort you want and so does your partner for the best sleep ever. the columbus day sale is on now with the queen c4 mattress set only $1399.98. plus 24-month financing. said to governor pence i can't imagine how you can defend your running mate's position on one issue after the next. and in all six cases, he's refused to -- >> let's -- no, no, don't put words in my mouth. if he's going to do that, you got to give me time. >> yet, he's asking everybody to vote for somebody that he cannot defend and i just think that should be underlined. >> gentlemen, let's talk about russia. >> i'm very, very happy to defend donald trump. if he wants to take this one at a time, i'll take them one at a time. >> one of the moments we've witnessed in this debate a short while ago. back with more of our coverage of the vice presidential debate. the instant fallout and what's next in this wild campaign. let's move right now hillary clinton campaign chairman in the spin room. mr. podesta, good to see you. thanks for joining us. >> thanks for having me on, lester. >> senator kaine clearly the aggressor, interrupting a lot. judge his performance for us, if you will. >> well, look, i think he did a great job. he both laid out the positive case for what hillary and he wanted to do for the country in terms of the economy, building an economy that was going to work for everyone, not just the people at the top. but he also forward and challenged mike pence to defend what donald trump has said during the course of this campaign over and over again. he asked him to defend it over and over again. mike pence just ducked. he never really stood up and defended the statements that donald trump has made during this campaign. he made a kind of weak defense of his business practices and couldn't really explain why he won't release his tax policy positions of trump and didn't lose his cool to the extent that he came off as a reasonable person. how did you play against that? >> yeah, look, i think he was smooth tonight but i think he was making up some policy positions or at least they're new to the trump campaign. you know, his argument about russia when donald trump is basically praised putin, said that we need to reconsider our commitment to nato, that we should elat sanctions and mike pence came off as a kind of hawk on, with respect to russia. so that was new. the no-fly zone in syria was a completely at odds with what donald trump has said previously. so he was kind of making it up but i think he, you know, i give him credit for a smooth performance, but, again, i think he came in with, you know, two things that he needed to get done. one was to change the trajectory of this campaign which he didn't do and the didn't do that, either. so i think he separated himself from the top of the ticket and you don't want to see your vice president doing that. >> john, it's savannah guthrie. one thing a lot of people noticed in this debate was how much tim kaine in style interrupted. he was incredibly aggressive. how do you think that will play? because there was definitely a distinction between the two candidates on this issue of how they approach the debate. >> look, i think tim came in both lay out the plans for the future that they have, but he also wanted to challenge mike pence and he did that. and i think he did it -- you know, i saw mike pence on the split screen keep shaking his head, but all tim was doing was repeating words that donald trump has uttered in this campaign. he never leveled an unfair charge. he really just kept quoting him and saying defend that, defend that. and mike pence just couldn't do it. >> all right. good to talk to you. >> thanks for having me on. >> we'll bring in james carville now, nbc news political analyst. he's been watching all this. give us your initial thoughts, james. >> my initial thoughts is that senator kaine, if you're a democrat, you liked what you saw. enthusiast enthusiastic, defended the party's positions very well. i think that governor pence did -- if you're particular, like a fundamentalist christian, i think you could identify with him and trump has not excited these guys very much. i think he really excited them. clinton. you know, i thought there was a lot of back and forth. it was also a lot of you said this/i didn't say that. the fact checkers are going to be up all night. but i think both sides came away with something. i think the race is going pretty well for secretary clinton. i think it will continue to go well. i also think the clinton campaign really wanted to get the taxes thing out and i was surprised at how much they went after the nuclear something we're going to be hearing a lot more about as the campaign moves forward. >> all right, james. thank you. we're going to take a quick break. ? before it became a medicine, it was an idea. a wild "what-if." so scientists went to work. they examined 87 different protein structures and worked for 12 long years. there were thousands of patient volunteers and the hope of millions. could be. me. ? what is success? is it a professor who never stops being a student? is it a caregiver determined to take care of her own? or is it a lifetime of work that blazes the 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something i wanted to say at the beginning, too, which is, you know, they both did a good job talking to their bases and that actually hadn't been done very well in the first debate by either candidate. both mike pence to skeptical christian conservative, i think he made a nice connection. and boy, tim kaine about those groups that seem to be less enthusiast enthusiastic. >> getting people to the polls. >> exactly. thinking about african-americans, thinking about latinos, thinking about younger voters. and i thought you could tell with different issues, they were both thinking about their political bases. >> interesting, but what about the persuadable middle? i mean, that sliver of people who are open to either candidate? >> you don't think -- >> honestly, a v.p. debate, no offense, but it's partisans that are watching tonight. both sides was what governor pence was saying were the agents of change. they kept coming back to that. we're going to change the way things have been done in washington. it's broken. we can fix that. then on the other side senator kaine was saying we're going to pix it from the bottom up, not just the top down. the two big messages they've been trying to convey. i must say something on behalf of both of those gentlemen who have been public servants for a long, long time, they not only acqui honorable lives in both cases. personally in their faith, and their commitment to their families and their commitment to their states and to their political philosophies. from time to time we have to say that about people who come into the public arena. >> it was a bit more spirited than i anticipated knowing they'd be sitting at a table together. it's a lot harder to get in their faces -- >> kaine created the tone of the debate. antagonist antagonistic. >> pence did not seem to attack. early on, questions about judgment, it was hillary clinton, but for the most part -- >> the end it looked like kaine got under pence's skin a little bit. >> it's interesting, though, because kaine obviously made that strategic decision and if there's anything that's bubbles ing up from this debate already it's kaine's demeanor which is funny because i remember your famous "meet the press" interview where you said, you're known as being boring. he's like, boring is great. he wasn't boring i think that's what -- >> anything quotable tonight? anything -- >> you know, pretty much played out the way i thought it would, but i must say i also thought it played out more effectively than i expected from both candidates' points of view. they both made their brief extremely well i thought, and the question is did they move anybody to their side that wasn't there already? effectively playing to their constituencies. >> all right. that is going to do it for our coverage of analysis continues right now on msnbc. also on nbcnews.com. and a full wrap-up of all the overnightfallout tomorrow morning on "today". for now, for chuck todd, savannah guthrie, tom brokaw, our entire nbc news team, i'm lester holt. have a good night, everyone. first at 11 breaking news shoot out in streeta massive manhunt. >> and tonight, police say they have both suspectses in custody. >> then, hurricane matthew leaving its mark in haiti and now cuba. >> the storm has it's sights set on united states. matthew. >> plus, did you work on that one a long time? does it have a lot really creative lines in it >> vp candidates on the debate stage for the first and only time. and a local concert turns into a no show concert goers promise to refund no way. hank investigates this ticket trouble. >> 7 news at 11 starts now. and we start with equilibrium braking news first at 11. a massive manhunt comes to an police on a roslindale street. police captured their second suspect just short time ago. he and another suspect were wanted for opening fire on police from the moment shot to shots were fired to massive search in roslindale. night team coverage we will with shoot out and arrest john cuoco live in roslindale. this street is quiet now. but earlier this entire area was filled with police. now we're told this started at a