From Delaware Public Media. So he's one of the sort of founders really all of all of he's the founder of The New City of Jerusalem but he's also one of the founders of modern zionism and so he's a very he's very famous in Israel less famous elsewhere there are calls in America you have a lot of Montefiore her to loan to 3 hospitals named all from this one in Brooklyn so I was brought up going to the city a lot as a child and family. And Jerusalem and all my life as a historian I may write write about Russian Russian history but I wanted to write the history the Middle East through through Jerusalem through the city and of course that's probably the hardest thing to do the hardest book to write I wanted to write a book that wasn't from the Jewish point of view wasn't from the Zionist point of view but also I wasn't from the anti zionist point of view I wanted to get as close to the truth of the city of Jerusalem as I could and I wanted to be a book that successful to everybody and you know and I said about that and I realized why no one had really done it before because there were files of books about the crusades all the Israel Palestine conflict this is really the only one that covers everything all the sects all the HAs right up to today and I think you've done a marvelous job I think you did that make an efficiently Simon and considering all the other books all the other books that you've written and you are recognized as an expert in Russian history I'm imagining that this one had a sort of a personal significance to you that your other books had not. Yes it really did I mean you know from the stomach I started it 1st of all I felt history looking looking at me and I really wanted to achieve something that was very hard to do a neutral history a history that you know you could really trust and of course that's an impossible thing to do and of course many people were suspicious of me because of my background my family connections to the to the Jewish to the Israeli to the Zionist side but I really thought about it in a dedicated manner and actually it is a book that read You know on all sides of the spectrum and and from my point of view the right people that they stream ists on both sides hate it and everybody else like that and reads it and you know when I when I was writing I really followed the rules of the 1st British governor in one $1017.00 or Jerusalem so will spare when he when he became governor he went to he went to Jerusalem and the Arabs the Christians the Jews all loved him but after about it about about a year just a few months actually he became hated by all 3 sides so he went to the British prime minister David Lloyd George in London he said I've got to resign the Jews hate me the Arabs hate me everyone hates me the Muslims hate me and Lloyd George said Quick as a flash Well if any of those 3 stops hating you. Q But for now you stay in the job and so I approach this book in very much that that that spirit that well as very important right now in particular one of the things you and I think you say this also in your preface or prologue that you. Decided part of you know your determination to be nonpartisan here just is the tell the story strictly in a chronological fashion and I want to begin with a Bible verse Simon This is from 2nd crack. Verses 5 and 6 this is where King Solomon the son of King David quotes God as saying since the day that I brought my people out of the land of Egypt I chose no city and all the tribes of Israel in which to build a house that my name might be there I chose no man is Prince over my people Israel but I have chosen Jerusalem that my name may be there and I have chosen David to be over my people Israel from the view of Jews that's that's the sort of the beginning moment as mine. Yes that is the moment they're called Chronicles written one of the later was written much later than other than other parts of talk about Jerusalem too but but yes that's the point for Jews you know Jerusalem is the holy city and obviously if Europe I mean much of this history is dependent on whether you are a believer or not if you're a believer you believe that God gave Jerusalem God chose the church the Jewish people to be his people. Chose the land of Israel to be their land and to his Jerusalem to be their holy city if you were rational. To take a scientific approach as I do you can question my question is you know what was true what really happened but when you're writing Jerusalem there are so many lies say many myths in the myths and lies are just as important as the truth so when you're studying the history of them you have to you have to take all of these things into account and of course each of the great Abrahamic faiths have their own founding myth if you if you like but for Jews. It's the Word of God that decided Jerusalem special status and the fact is historically the Jews were that were basically the 1st of these 3 great moment more atheistic religions to be that yes and I want to win after the break I want to start with what we now know about that time of history when King David was there you mentioned how important faith and religion is to understanding history let me quote you actually from your book you say many atheistic visitors are repelled by this holiness seeing it as infectious superstition but that is to deny the profound human need for religion without which it is impossible to understand Jerusalem religions must explain the fragile joys and perpetual anxieties that mystify and frighten humanity as the meeting place of God and man Jerusalem is where these questions are settled so I understand from that that you had to take religion seriously. I mean. By religion I'm quite a rational killer sort of. We must analyze do some historically but also we must understand the faith otherwise it's absolutely meaningless and none of it makes any sense we are discussing the Epic History of Jerusalem from King David to the 21st century you can join the conversation have you read Simon's sweeping history of Jerusalem did it inform your view of the Holy City today. 180-423-2543. Good morning you're listening to on point here at Delaware public media I'm your host Kelli Steele 899 Corp service company in Wilmington has provided business legal and financial services to companies worldwide including 90 percent of the Fortune 500 C.C.'s practice support w d.d.e. More information is available at c.s.c. Global dot com. Forward to be brother Michael McDonald has a new solo album called wide open will talk about honing his unique voice what happens when you can't nail a Steely Dan harmony in the studio with Steely Dan and what it feels like to be celebrated roasted on late night t.v. Michael McDonald performs live the next World Cafe and I may have to stay up for that show tonight you can hear the next World Cafe starting at 8 o'clock tonight right here on Delaware Public Media. It's 1120 Good morning. College of Engineering committed to diversity and engineering solutions for all communities preparing young women and men for engineering careers application deadline January 1st learn more at Olin and dot edu and Home Advisor and online service used by more than 30000000 homeowners to find home improvement professionals from plumbers to remodelers matching each Omar with prescreen professionals in their area more at Home Advisor dot com. This is on point I'm Tom Gjelten we're talking about the 3000 year history of the holy city of Jerusalem you can join our conversation do you know the history of the city how does its rich and complicated past affect your view of the Israeli Palestinian conflict we're at 180-423-0255 that's 180423 talk you can also follow us on Twitter and you can find us on Facebook at on point radio I'm talking with Simon seabag Montefiore from London he is the author of Jerusalem the biography and Simon essentially the history as you have laid out begins at the time of King David you made the point that sort of Jews have the earliest claim on Jerusalem due to it being the City of David what do we know what can you tell us about that very early history you see in your book that you correct me if I'm wrong you are now convinced that King David was a historical figure there was a stone tablet the Tel Dan steely that was discovered by archaeologists that made reference I believe to the to the house of David You begin with that sort of. Promise that there actually was a King David go ahead don't let me just say let me just say one of the stressful things about writing this book is that just about everybody I know you know had some sort of threat to tell me that my father told me he'd never forgive me if I said King David didn't exist my Palestinian friends said they never forgive me if I didn't mention the day s. In massacre by all meaning friends had another threat so obviously I didn't sleep about about 5 or 6 years writing his book Oh yes well I've said years later I'm still alive but but to be serious I mean you know you want to go to realize that it's so you politicize this early history that that you know both both both sides in the Palestine Israel conflict have a tendency to deny and exclude to deny the narrative of the author and that is where. Of course reputable archaeologists on both sides know that for example there was a Jewish temple that. But that can't be denied by you know in politics at the same time. There are very politicized right right wing Israeli archaeologists who are intent on sort of providing proof prematurely that the King David palace has been found and proved and so on so one has to cut through all that and try and get as close as one can to the truth and what we do know 1st of all is that there was there was actually quite a large truck there were large structures Canaanite structures there before any of this started and in the City of David those huge walls have been found that predate David so when David arrived it was already something that a fortress of some sort that the 1st thing the 2nd thing is that it seems likely that the David was a historical character he's almost certainly mentioned in the Tell Dan. Steele he. You know he was the one who made the political decision almost certainly to build a temple in Jerusalem and to unite the sort of northern and southern tribes by having a capital that now most of the great decisions in trees and history from David just a limb in the magnificent 2 don't trump have been made actually for political not religious reasons and that's one of the interesting things about the city so you know the great obsession of course is whether David and Solomon or that whether whether David existed in fact we know that very soon after the probable death of. Of Solomon David son we know from archaeological finds in Egypt that an Egyptian pharaoh came along. Into a 2 day and managed to get threaten to take Jerusalem and Jerusalem paid it paid it all paid the church and off with a huge amount of gold from the temple there so you know within within 40. 50 years of David's death we know there was already was a to a very rich temple that. In fact historically there was a Jewish temple. Soon after David in the period of David and Solomon which is about $1000.00 b.c. And then it became obviously then it was the capital of Judea the kingdom of Judea the Southern Jewish kingdom toujours kingdoms Israel in the north Judea and the Jew during the South and and there was a very rich temple that was the decision. To make the capital that by David and Solomon and that in a city it was the decision to build a temple on what was probably already a Canaanite holy place on the top of a mountain with a spring nearby and it was these decisions that made its a significant but it was the writing of the Bible what we call now the bible which is really to read the biography of Jerusalem in one sense the Old Testament the scriptures the Torah the 5 Books of the 5 Books of this book that major reason the Universal City not just the Druze not just the Jewish city it was made it made it that made it made it the Universal City as I call it because that book became the universal story and it made the Jew the story of the Jews after all those books of the Bible all the stories of the Jewish people told repeated passed down from father to son and written down and that's what's made Jerusalem the holy city now the you have made clear is the one that knows the history of Jews and knows that it's holy to 3 face Judaism Christianity and Islam do you rank those claims I mean implicitly I guess it's seems that b. That the Jews have the earliest claim in Jerusalem and and the strongest claim I mean it's it's the city where Christ was where Christians believe Christ was crucified and buried but it's not the holiest city to to Muslims is it fair to say that Judaism has the primary claim on Jerusalem as a holy city. It has to 1st but I wouldn't use the word primary because you know let's face it any any people that have lived in a city for say 5100 years regard that as their home and most people regard that if they're thrown out of that home most people regard that as an invasion of their human rights so you know I don't think one should sort of rank in a hierarchy but the reason why I tell it in chronology and why it's so important to do this which is they rarely done with Jerusalem is because you do get a sense of the depth of for example the Jewish love of Jerusalem the reverence the fact that you know Zionism wasn't actually created in 898 it was created in 7080 when tight as the seas as he was then the next the next emperor of Rome destroyed the temple destroyed Jerusalem through the Jews out and from that point on the Jews craved a return to Jerusalem. Prayed around the walls when they got the chance revered the city and so you know the truth of the Jewish the Jewish relationship with Jerusalem really is a very ancient one and not something merely invented in the in the ninety's in the period of time of colonialism and imperialism that that is a that is that is a terrible calumny really but this is not to deny that you know the Muslims also and the Christians also have you know extremely ancient claims and authentic narratives I mean after all you know the Jews 3000. The Muslims a 1000 and a half years I mean it's pretty hard to choose between between those 2 what is interesting is that the Muslim. The Muslim reverence for Jerusalem originated in the Jewish scriptures I mean it was moment do you know new the new the Jewish narrative it was the Jewish belief in them and the fact that the mystical importance of Jerusalem the fact that the end days the apocalypse whatever you call it would take place that that was the reason that the Muslim on. Armies in the muslims of the Caliphate remark was keen to take to reason they believe that was in the into that time in the 7th century so so it's impossible to understand any of the claims and any of the histories without taking it in the correct narrative order and that's why it's important to do so well let's stick with that narrative order for just a bit so Solomon establishes Jerusalem as the capital of His Kingdom and it remains the capital for hundreds of years until the king of Babylon never can as or comes along in approximately what 600 b.c. And then. 56 is that is history so what happens is that you know whenever there was it whenever there was a time when the great empires of the Middle East Egypt and the great empires of sort of Persia Iraq Iran Iraq area whenever they were in a basins the Jews got independence and when they when they were great empire was rising they lost their independence. So yes it was a Jewish it was a Jewish kingdom that it was due to Jewish kingdoms Israel and Judah then the Assyrians started to threaten the Northern Kingdom and then your right as king of Babylon and founder of a new sort of Babylonian Empire takes to Ruth Jerusalem rebels and he comes down and he destroys it completely and this destruction tourism's there any city only in history really where it's destruction is also an act of creation where each destruction and there are 2 major destructions each destruction is actually a spark of religiosity of faith. And of kind of mystical excitement and that's a very unusual thing it does say something special about the nature of the Jewish people when they're one of the rock peoples in history who that temples have been destroyed political states have been eliminated they've been sent into exile and yet they've still kept their stories kept their faith and dreamed of Jerusalem so that's a special characteristic of the Jewish people that has been played out in Jerusalem and even after never can has or destroyed it it continued to be essentially a Jewish city for hundreds of years more. Yes I mean what happened was that Babylon didn't last long Cyrus the Great created the 1st kind of idea of the world empire which was the Persian Empire and that included that included the idea of religious tolerance for everybody providing they recognize the king the great king in Persia and so the Jews were allowed to return to. And to rebuild a 2nd temple and that's what they did and that temple lasted a long time through various conquests of the great. Took the Persian Empire and his successors in the solution in Ptolemaic and posin Egypt and and Syria Iraq ruled ruled Jerusalem and I tolerated tolerated Jewish life that until Antioch is the Pitney's it's now exactly now is that one of the days of Panacur the festival Haneke after and that one at that festival is really about historic moment when. The orcas appear phonies tried to literally to destroy the temple try to build a and I'd adulterous temple that the the Jews rebelled under the Maccabean brothers Jude Simon Jonathan actually named after 2 of them and and they defeated the superpower the sort of Hellenistic superpower saluted Sipp superpower and created a New Jersey kingdom that McCabe and has many and kingdom which lasted another 100 years when it was again the capital of a Jewish state and and when the Romans arrived they had a client King Herod the Great who married a beautiful McCabe and princess and later had a Rex acute Incidentally he was one of the most fascinating characters of this whole story Herod the Great he created the kind of layout of the Old City of Jerusalem as it is today and he rebuilt the temple in in glorious manner and that was the temple pair of the greats temple that was known to Jesus and that Jesus visited and so we've reached Christianity Well that's Simon seabag modified. Henri He's the author of Jerusalem the biography and I want to ask his time and about some of your favorite characters but we're going to take a we're going to go back to the phones a little bit I'm Tom Gjelten this is on point and 1st we're going to go to Diane and she is calling from Cambridge Massachusetts hello Dianne you're on on point I tell you what do you what can you what's your connection to Jerusalem Diane. Well I lived there on and off in the mid ninety's and early 2000 I left with my husband and kids and 2000 to. I grew up you know visiting Israel loving Jerusalem and when I had a chance to move there after college I thought so great I want to live in Jerusalem it's so beautiful but I would say that as a secular Jew It is not a great place to live it's very difficult to live a life there like a modern secular life. Most of everyone we know has since left they live in Tel Aviv they live in Modine they live in other places of the country Israelis who are secular don't go to Jerusalem on a regular basis it's kind of like a school field trip kind of place getting friends to visit you there was just like pulling teeth you know far away why would we come to you and it fit for modern governance I would say that well Simon what do you make of that comment well I kind of you know I spent spent The Cools I've seen c