Transcripts For WCAU Meet The Press 20141214 : comparemela.c

To prevent another attack. I will be joined by former Vice President dick cheney. And could drones be used in the future this the same way that terrorist attacks are p being used today. We will be seeing them used in many ways. And as a young black man, it is over time. Why is there such distrust between police and africanamericans. The belief that there is not going to be distrust is to deny humanity. I am joined by former adviser to the president david axelrod, and Political Correspondent Helene Cooper and correspondent andrea mitchell. And now it is meet the press with chuck todd. And now, no Government Shutdown this year and perhaps next year as well. Now to the big story, the Senate Report on torture and some called it enhanced e report on technique. Some call it the detail and the shocking indictment on the methods used on techniques used on detainees and no more defender of the tactics used former Vice President dick chen cheney. Thank you for coming back. Good to be back. And let me start with a quote, you said that torture is something to be avoided and it implies that you have a definition of what torture is. Well, torture to me, chuck, is an american citizen on a cell phone making a last call to the four young daughters shortly before he burns to death in the upper levels of the trade center in the new york trade center. And it seems there is some difference of torture, and there is no difference, and we worked hard to stay short of that definition. What is that definition . The definition is the one provided by the office of legal counsel, and we went specifically to them because we did not want to cross the line that we crossed some international agreement, and they specifically okayed and authorized everything that we did. All of the techniques that were authorized by the the president were in effect blessed by the Justice Department opinion that we could go forward with those without in fact committing or the chur. And let me go through some of the techniques. Majit khan subjected to rectal feed i feeding and feeding and it included ensure, and it included of hummus, and pasta and nuts and puree and rectally infused. Is that meeting the definition of torture . It is not the definition of torture. And in your mind does it meet the definition of torture. I told you what meets the definition of torture is what men did with box cutters. I believe that is what is done with medical reasons. Well, there is no evidence. If you look at Jose Rodriguez book and he is the one who was running the program, he has done a very clear description of how the program operated with respect to that and i think that the agency has answered it in the response to the committee report. And you acknowledge that this is over and above . This is not something that was done as part of the program. You will not call it torture. It is not done in part of the program. We have amid al rajar and overhead handcuffing with hands over a bar for 22 consecutive days to braeak the resistance ad he had access to a diaper and no access to toilet, and was that acknowledged as part of the program . I cant tell from that specifically whether it was or not and page 53 of the e report. The report is seriously flawed, and they did not talk to anybody who knew anything who knew anything about the program and within the program and the best guide of what happened is the report that was produced by the three cia drirectors and th dep sis is of the cia when this program was understood taken and it lays out in clear terms what we did and how we did it in respect to trying to define that as torture i come back to the proposition that torture is what the al qaeda terrorists did to 3,000 americans on 9 11 and there is no comparison to what that is and what we did to the suspected terrorists, and it is not. Some of these tactics did what is above and beyond what was approved. And this one, to abu zubaydah, and laid in a coffinsized box and 29 hour, and then depth of 2. 5 feet, and a height of 2. 5 feet, and on page 22, is that going to meet the definition of torture . That is one of the approved techniques. In terms of torture, i guess what i do, and i was struck for example by the statements by bud daye and leo forcnis and captured by the vietnamese and subjected to extreme torture and all of them said that waterboarding was not torture, and you can look for various definitions, and we did what was required and making sure that we were not violating the the law, and the law as interpreted by the Justice Department and the Legal Department was clear and the techniques use and the president authorized that produced results and gave us the information that we needed to safeguard the nation against further attacks and to track down those guilty of 9 11 did in fact work. Now the Senate Committee and the partisan operation and none of those involved and the with well, the the cia and chuck, chuck, if you will look at it, and look at what those who were involved of running the agency said, and Chuck Rodriguez who is a good man and what was said on the show, and i wont use the word on the show, because it is a family show, but it is a crock. And the whole report has not been released. And thousands of pages here and this is the executive sum i ri. Yes, and go read what the directors of the agencies said about the report. They were extremely critical of it as were the republicans who were on the committee. Does it plant any seed of doubt in your mind . No. Absolutely not. No seed of doubt in your mind whether it worked or not . No, it did work. It absolutely did work. And what do you say to sulaiman abdullah, and Khalid Al Masri and others folks who were detain and had the interrogation methods used on them, and they were later released and then they were later released a and no apology and what do we do . Gaul ramon was frozen to death in cia custody and then he was a case of mistaken identity . Well, the folks that were released on the battlefield, and 30 of guantanamo ended up back on the battlefield. Today, we are concerned about isis, and terrible new terrorist group who is led by baghdadi who was detain and now he is back out, and now leading this this group. So i am more concerned about the guys who were e detain and then let out. And so 25 turned out to be innocent . Where do you draw the line and how do you know . Is that too high or are you okay with that margin of error . I am okay as long as we achieve the objective to not have is another terror attack, and i a am okay as long as we had the approval of the Justice Department, and it is okay. For 13 years we have avoided another mass casualty against the United States and we did capture bin laden and capture the main guys who have been responsible, and i would do it again in a minute. And if you say waterboarding was not why not well, to draw some moral equivalent of waterboarding of our Justice Department and what the japanese did with the Bataan Death March with the rain of the others and the c s and the man is a cheap shot to the draw war crimes with what was done in world war ii and what was done to the terrorists involved in the 9 11 attacks is a cheap shot. And is this why it was done at other sites . No, they are not american citizens, but they are unlawful combatants, and they are people who have committed unlawful acts of terror against the american people, and we put them in places to find out what they knew and to protect the country from further terrorist attacks, and it worked. And general petraeus said this about the troops about the interrogation techniques to the troop, and others say that we could use other information extraction the techniques, but it would be wrong. This is what senator mccain said. I know that some say that torture techniques distinguish that from our enemies, but all people possess basic human rights which are protected by the International Conventions that the United States not only joined but for the most part authored. Your reaction . My reaction is the same as leo theoharris who was a pilot shot down, a pilot, and said this week that waterboarding is not torture, and he also holds the medal of honor and as did bud day and subs subsequently made it clear that he does not believe that wa the terboarding is torture. And so if waterboarding is performed against an american by isis, is it or the cur . He is not going to be waterboarded, he is going to have his head cut off. And why dont you have chuck, you are trying to come up with hypotheticals, but when you come up with isis and anybody else, what they do is not waterboarding, but cut their heads off and what they did on 9 11 is brutal and bloody murder and it cannot be compared to with what we did in the enhanced Interrogation Program. And now there is a insinuation that has to do with jose padilla that said that you and usdoj used author iized enhanced interrogation techniques part of the techniques to avoid plots as a plot of dirty bomb plots was avoided due to intelligence. And this what the cia a said that other cables and other information said that those techniques played no role this the identification of jose padilla or the dirty bomb plots. And do you feel that they were telling you what you wanted to hear . What is the implication . Well, the implication is just wrong. And again, the cia directors are making it clear that they got it wrong time after time after time. The foegs that the notion th not identified at the white house is not true. I sat in meetings with the cia and the example that the president did not know is a lie and it is not true. We we were in fact how was the president preefed . He with was briefed. By the cia or you . I was heavily involved as especially the National Security council and conde. And the president write ss abou it in his book. Well, three pages in his book he writes about it, but you were briefed directly, and he was briefed indirectly most of the time, is that fair to say . No, that is not fair to say. He and i met every single morning with the ci, and the director of the director of security, and that is where we got most of the information and that and the written pdb, and he authorized it and knew it, and the statement by the Senate Democrats for partisan purptss that the president didnt know what was going on is a flat out lie. In fact, it is a cheap shot piece of political business that was not bipartisan nor involving this any discussion of the people involved in the program. You have why would you give that credence . And let me ask you this, why would you have thumbed out in the cia the same Intelligence Community that didnt get it right on wmds in iraq are and why are you so confident that they are telling you the truth on this . Because i though them, and i have known men for years that i have trusted intimately with the difficult problems they have dealt with. And Jose Rodriguez is one of the outstanding officers there, and i know what they were asked to do and i am perfectly co comfortable with that, and they deserve the praise and to be decorate and not harassed. Can you imagine out there now as an officer of the agency and you were understo undertaking a difficult task and the president approved it and the department of justice approved it and then later some politician on capitol hill would come back to want a piece of your fannie, and it is a difficult proposition that this is even discussed. And this is ben emerson, a special envoy of the human right, and he wants a criminal probe. He says it is time to take action and the individuals responsible for what he calls a criminal conspiracy in the report should be brought to justice and the u. S. Is legally obliged to bring them to justice. I know how you feel on this, should the president i have no respect for the United Nations thor individual who has no clue and no are responsibility for safeguarding this nation or the bastard who went after americans here. And is there a pardon there is no pardon needed because there is no crime needed. Who wants to sanction or satisfy some executive at the United Nations who doesnt have any say or responsibility and a claim that some kind of pardon is required, chuck . This is a, again, i come back to the proposition, and i think that one of the things that im worried a isnt what thy d ied doing long term, and we have isis talking about attacking the United States creating a caliphate, and in a situation as bad of 9 11 when after the attack we had word that al qaeda wanted nuclear weapons, and now we are sitting here today, and castigating the cia for doing what the president ordered them to do and the Justice Department said was legal, and we are doing enormous damage to the relationship overseas with the friends and the allies who have supported us and working with us, and making it very difficult to go to recruit foreign agents to work with us because they are likely to be hanging out to politicians on capitol hill who have an ax to grind. And we are largely being in trouble with politicians with an ax to grind. And not with bipartisan approach, and not an approach which takes into account the people involved, but political view to trashing a very, very good program that work and saved lives and kept us from another attack. And a couple of questions. I want to play an interesting clip of you 20 years ago about iraq and Saddam Hussein. And take a lookment that is a very poll volatile part of the world and if you take down the Central Government of iraq, you can see pieces of iraq fly off and part of it the syrians would like to the west, and the eastern iraq, and the iranians fought over and to the north you have the kurds and they spin loose and join with the kurds in turkey, and then you threaten the kurds in turkey and it is a quagmire. And looking good there 20 year years ago. And how old were you 20 years a ago . 22 at the time. And you could argue that somebody today saying, that is what iraq looks like today, it might split up, and ungovernable, and pieces of syria and iraq and i mean, everything that you deskrcribeds happening today. So what is the question . I ask you, do you regret pushing Saddam Hussein out . No, no. A lot has happened between the time 9 11 for example happened, and we got to the point where we were very concerned about the linkage of the terrorists on the one hand and the weapons of mass destruction on the ther. And Saddam Hussein had nuke lcl programs going on and tenyear relationship with al qaeda, and all of those things came into play here. And the al qaeda stuff was questioned in here. And when it was the importance of going after iraq, i believe that we did the right thing and it was the right action then and i believe it now. And last question. Rand paul or Hillary Clinton, and whose Foreign Policy are you more comfortable with . I dont think that either one of them is going to be president. And whose Foreign Policy are you going to be comfortable with . I am comfortable with my own views and i have been forthright with them, and i dont support either Hillary Clinton or rand pa paul. And how is your health . I got a new heart three years ago and my share even growing ba back. Good to see you, dick cheney. Thank you, chuck. And we will be back with a key member of the Senate Foreign relations committee, and it is s senator ron wyden and he going to be here. [ male announcer ] we know theyre out there. You cant always see them. But its our job to find them. The answers. The solutions. The innovations. All waiting to help us build Something Better. Something more amazing. A safer, cleaner, brighter future. At boeing, thats what building Something Better is all about. And welcome back. More on the story that has dominated the news this week. The senate, what the democrats call the torture report. Im joined by senator ron wyden, democrat from oregon, member of the Senate Intelligence committee and somebody who frankly was pushing your leader, senator dianne feinstein, to get this report done and be made public. Senator wyden, welcome back to meet the press. Thank you. First let me get your reaction to Vice President cheney who obviously has not a lot of respect for this report. Well, first of all, with respect to waterboarding and the Vice President is obviously comfortable with it, i consider it to be torture. And just to correct the record when the japanese were prosecuted for using against our guys in world war ii, it was at the tokyo trials. I think its important to set the record straight. Well, let me ask you, though, he says this thing is partisan. That has been some of the criticism even from folks who agree with some of the conclusions who say you know what, though . You have no real chance to see reform at the cia because the cia can now easily dismiss this as a partisan report. Facts arent part ran, chuck. We reviewed 6 million pages of documents. The full report has 38,000 footnotes. And what we sought to do was very careful. And that is to take the statements, the cia made to the american people, made to the congress, made to the Justice Department, made to the president , and we compared it to their own internal communications in realtime. There are a mountain of contradictions. I understand that you used nothing but cia material, ciaprovided material, but no interviews. The cia says, dir