Since 700 health workers have been infected with the disease and 6 have died w.h.o. Director general tenderness I don't know who gave her a a sos calls this a critical piece of information because well what got us out of the glue that holds the system and outbreak response to get that but we need to know more about this including the time period and sometimes Times is in which the health workers became sick the w.h.o. Says a joint mission with China on covert 19 is moving forward it says 12 International and w.h.o. Experts will arrive in China in the next few days he says shine for v.o.a. News Geneva there might be a truce agreement between the United States and the Taleban a.p. Correspondent Shelley Adler reports a senior u.s. Official says the United States and the Taliban have reached a truce agreement that will take effect quote very soon and could lead to a pullout of American troops from Afghanistan the officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to discuss details ahead of an official announcement the person added that the agreement for a 7 day reduction in violence to be followed by the start of all Afghan peace talks within 10 days is very specific and covers the entire country including Afghan forces the developments come as Secretary of State might pump aoe and defense secretary Mark esper met in Munich with Afghanistan's president shortly after Washington a mixed day on Wall Street with the Dow Jones Industrials lower about the s. And p. And the Nasdaq posting gains this is v.o.a. News. Federal prosecutors have declined to charge former f.b.i. Deputy director Andrew McCabe closing an investigation into whether he lied to federal officials about his involvement in a news media disclosure McCabe's lawyer said in a statement Friday they were told in a phone call and letter that the case is closed and that no charges will be brought against him based on the facts the decision resolves a criminal investigation that spanned more than a year and began with a referral from the Justice Department's inspector general the i.g. Had said McCabe repeatedly lied about having authorized a subordinate to share information with a newspaper reporter for a 26000 article about an f.b.i. Investigation into the Clinton Foundation McCabe a frequent target of attacks from President Donald Trump has denied that he intentionally misled anyone the White House has declined to comment. A key ally of French President is Emanuel McCraw has been has withdrawn that is from the race for Paris's mayor Lucy fielder of Reuters reports a Russian dissident artist has published screenshots of online sexting between Greece and a woman saying it exposed his hypocrisy Grupo hasn't denied sending the messages at $42.00 he is one of the so-called boys a clique that helped propel a former investment banker to the elites a palace he was central to my plan to control the capital and build a prison Palla base his own lush secret vote was already struggling recent polls put him in 3rd place the incumbent mayor and a leading rival has backed in the row saying his privacy should be respected that's Lucy fielder of Reuters reporting. Turkey continued to stand reinforcements to northwest Syria Friday as Ankara backed rebels shot down a government helicopter and west of Aleppo in Syria's Northwestern good liberal the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said on Friday that Turkey had deployed around $6500.00 soldiers to reinforce existing units in northwest Syria $1800.00 military vehicles have also been deployed since earlier this month Meanwhile Turkish forces and Syrian rebel groups clashed with Syrian government forces Friday in a continuing confrontation that saw the shooting down of a government helicopter Turkey's military has sent additional arms and troops to adlib on its southern border to confront a push by Russian backed Syrian government troops to retake the country's last major rebel stronghold after nearly 9 years of war for more be sure to visit v.o.a. News dot com I'm David Gergen v.o.a. News. From Washington we feel a sense issues in the news. Welcome to a seat in the knees on the panel this week Tracy Wilkinson correspondent for The Los Angeles Times on Slough called Mail in Washington d.c. Metro reporter for the officiating back and a moderator is Paul Brandis White House reporter for West Wing reports and a columnist for USA Today. Hello thank you for joining us and here are the issues a sharp rise in the coronavirus case raises questions about just when the virus will be brought under control Bernie Sanders wins the Democratic primary in New Hampshire as the race for that party's presidential nomination moves into high gear u.s. President Donald Trump's post impeachment purge continues and there are questions as to whether he influenced the judicial process in the sentencing of an old friend and the former president of Sudan in a remarkable development will be tried for war crimes Well let's start with this Corona virus obviously one big story that the entire world is watching the number of cases China says has actually surged in the last couple of days that's because they apparently have changed the methodology by which they're diagnosing this illness but this is more than a health story of course it's also an economic story because it has slowed China's supply chain with which the rest of the world depends on it's also a political story the ability of President Xi Jinping to control in a terminal crisis will start with you good to see you what out of all of these factors what really is the most important thing in your view what stands out inside China it stands to reason you're going to get pressure to prove that they. You can handle this just recently I binge watched the h.b.o. Miniseries true noble like staying up super late and so it's kind of on my mind of this you had this government in crisis trying to prove they were on top of things that was even a higher level that was almost a higher priority than handling the problem and eventually it gets so big that you can't keep it going but yeah you would imagine there's dual pressures to get it done and prove they could get it done and certainly there's going to be a pressure to maybe shine up the results a little bit and what do you think Tracy out of all these factors you know they're doing a little better job than they did during the SARS epidemic at least they are acknowledging that this is happening but it is a big political problem and a big economic problem I think you know when you have the 2nd largest economy in the world slowing down this way and being hurt damaged that's going to have as you said impact worldwide politically you know she is it's been a mixed bag you know we've seen some of the initial doctors who initially denounces or prison silenced one has died from the disease some of the so-called citizen journalist people who were filming and putting this stuff on the news on social media have disappeared so she is really in a bind of of as Ashcroft said proving he can handle it but also the Chinese way of doing things which is keeping things controlled and relatively silent but they are acknowledging thousands and thousands of cases and death so you know at least there's that we were just talking before the taping in fact about the you brought up a very good point about Noble the Soviet example in 1986 when that nuclear reactor melted down they tried to cover it up in fact you made a good point that kind of managing the cover up might have been in fact even more important than actually controlling the crisis itself are we seeing that kind of dynamic at play in China do you think it's hard to say from the outside but certainly the pressures on. Going to be there that the temptation to skew that way on the part of any government is going to be there so you can only hope that accuracy is of real crucial importance in something like this medical accuracy it's not a p.r. Problem what do you and Tracy what do you think that says about sort of China in general that there To me it's a sign of insecurity when you have to cover something up I think one thing that I think of as sort of after the speaking of 1906 insurable when the space shuttle Challenger exploded that year President Reagan went on television and said This is what we do in an open democracy we don't hide our faults we put it out in the open it makes us stronger that is not the case in China what does that say in your view about sort of the way the communist system it runs things are not just the communist system but an authoritarian system where there isn't democracy and there isn't this security of freedom of information that at least until recently was certainly the tradition here in the United States it says that as as largest China is becoming as big an influence as as it has become on the world stage it still has a lot of these sort of old fashioned tendencies that are part of the author or Terry has them that where they don't have the security to be forthright with their problems and what do you think going forward what can we expect in the coming days what do you think well I do think as I mentioned they are being a little more open about this than they were say with the SARS the SARS virus several years ago you know the World Health Organization is involved the Centers for Disease Prevention control in the United States is involved a lot of the world agencies are involved so I do think that there will be a lot of care taken and the danger what I'm seeing here in the United States is an overreaction sometimes that you see in fact overt racism coming you know a Chinese person is seen in l.a. For example and they're feared as being a potential carrier so I think we do need to have a lot more education. About what the disease really is in you know on this side of the of the world well let's move on to here in the United States the 1st primary of the 2020 presidential election has been held and the winner on the Democratic side Bernie Sanders he is a 78 year old self described a socialist from the tiny state of Vermont but his win was not as convincing as it was 4 years ago and kind of nipping at his heels was someone far younger the 38 year old former mayor of a smallish town in the Midwest but a judge and also a Minnesota Senator Amy club which are a woman and she had of rather impressive showing as well it seems to me that it's a little too early to say that to any of anybody's The front runner at this point well a little behind the curtain of that at a recent staff news meeting of the at the Associated Press somebody use the term closure charge to describe the momentum to mass groaning all around the room so she's definitely regarded as a job at having finished a surprising 3rd 3rd Yeah those are all coming in she seemed to come on strong as you'd be a strong debater that seem to have an immediate impact on her so it's interesting she survived the great winnowing I mean of all of them I think people thought judge would be here I don't know that people 2 months ago 3 months ago thought she'd be one of the last people standing but now I think you're down to this group probably isn't going anywhere for a while but I mean I'm a Super Tuesday guy like this is all very interesting and the people in New Hampshire and I was here to take their responsibilities very seriously but demographics of America I want more states where global listeners what explain what Super Tuesday is we have listeners all around the world what a Super Tuesday multiple primaries around the country and that's going to be the 1st time in this process that you're going to get large representation in large voting blocks of nonwhite Americans right because Iowa and New Hampshire are very small states that are very white and I think you older. Holder in so it's not really representative of the entire United States and so we need to see these next state coming up you know Joe Biden who everyone thought would be a front runner or the front runner you know has fallen I think he came in 5th in New Hampshire which is bad you know very bad and so he's looking to the next states where there are more black voters more Latino voters and hoping that he can finally win a primary Well I was going to ask about that in the next state obviously is Nevada large numbers of Hispanic South Carolina large numbers of black voters Biden seems to be his campaign may come down to his performance in those 2 states is not just Biden there was another person from a couple of months ago who seemed to be sort of at or near the top not too long ago Elizabeth Warren from Massachusetts both of them fizzled in both Iowa and New Hampshire I guess the question for either of you is how long can either of them hang on that's a good question one concern that I think the Democratic Party leadership has is that Sanders may be too far left in the us context for a general election when you know to be able to defeat Trump and so I'm a little confused about why Sanders and Warren Elizabeth Warren have very similar policies why she faded and he didn't I don't really that's not been explained to me but that is certainly what has happened he has surged and she has faded it's unclear she's insisting you know there's still you know 98 percent of the country needs to speak but she is fading and it will be hard you know for her to sustain the the fund raising and the any kind of momentum to continue buying still has such a you know of an organization and name recognition I wouldn't count him out but I think Elizabeth Warren is struggling what is the attraction of these top through the club charge which is a great line notwithstanding Sanders is 78 years old he calls himself socialist poll after poll after poll says Americans don't want to elect. Socialist and yet here he is explain the attraction that a lot of people seem to have for him also for but a judge and for club which I did have a little bit deeper if he could well I think the attraction of Sanders is one thing in the attraction of judge and closure is the other is you know Sanders is the extreme in American politics which says a lot about American politics but also like I mean you know the fact that he says for my generation and I think the generation before it as well the word socialism was this taboo you know that just says a lot about the American mindset that it was regarded as this halfway to communism thing and the fact that he's out there talking about it and the fact that he's got a c. Just talking about socialism in a very normal way is groundbreaking in America in a way that probably people outside America might not see that the word socialism is such a charged word here in a way that it's not in other places blue gentian club which are there representing now the middle if Biden is faltering they represent the new that we are the people who actually have a chance to win because we are moderates you know they're going to argue that Sanders and Warren are just too far out there and as far as where everybody's going to Tracy mentioned something very important it's not just the media stuff it's not just the votes it's the fundraising You know we tend to talk about politics like at sports where it's like oh this is these people have momentum and these people are charging and these people are getting up with these people or are losing steam it's the money if you're not consistently finishing well the money dries up they don't call money the mother's milk of politics for nothing to they well let's pause for a short break more issues in the news in just a moment issues in the news this coming to you from the Voice of America in Washington if you would like to download the program it's free on i Tunes Just click on the i Tunes tab on our website at v.o.a. News dot com While you're there check out our other programs Press Conference USA and encounter also visit us on Facebook and to leave a comment or 2 then like us at our. Of players with Carol Castillo Now back to our panel Tracy Wilkinson correspondent for The Los Angeles Times. Washington d.c. Metro reporter for The Associated Press and our moderator is Paul Brandis White House reporter of a West Wing reports and a columnist for USA Today. Welcome back for federal prosecutors have withdrawn from the case against Roger Stone he's a long time confidant of President Trump stone is also a convicted felon and had been facing 7 to 9 years in prison but now is facing apparently just a fraction of that for speculation Tracy that this is because the president let it be known on Twitter that he thought the sentencing guidelines for stone 7 to 9 years he thought that was bogus In fact he thought the whole case against going to begin with was a sham Yes he did and there's some dispute over the timing of all of this but President Trump definitely let it be known via Twitter that he thought the sentence was excessive was unfair before we knew it announcing that the trainee general will yes he is the Attorney General William Barr announcing that well in fact they would revise the sentence recommendation and in response 4 of the prosecutors involved with 3 from the case of one quit the Justice Department altogether ultimately will be up to the judge to to to sentence down but this did have the appearance of political influence although Barr has since denied that but did have the appearance that Trump was you know asking for lenient treatment for a friend of his an ally we're going to talk more about bar in just a 2nd for some other reasons but you know a shrug this follows the president's tweeting the timing of course not quite certain but it does follow some things that we do know the president also sacked. Highly decorated war veteran of course Lieutenant Colonel Alexander of in men who had testified against the president in his recent impeachment trial also fired was of in men's brother Ironically enough he was an ethics lawyer on the National Security Council staff the president appears to be kind of getting back at some of his critics here yeah but getting back in a way that really kind of seems like he doesn't care about the optics of it doesn't care about how it looks it is rather blatant and it is something we've seen before in politics you but you have to go back to Nixon and where these sort of like vendettas through the government it's an indication of how things are going to go the next year is going to be a wild ride there for listeners around the world who are looking at all this and asking what's going on it's fair to point out there's a lot of commentary to think that these kind of things traditionally do not happen in the United States the president does not get involved in law enforcement cases he does not meddle as some have said he's doing in Department of Justice cases but here as you say the optics of a perhaps don't seem to matter to him What do you make of that well it's it is pretty remarkable as you say these are not things that traditionally happen in the United States there are 3 branches of government that are supposed to stay separate from executive judicial and legislative and we have seen repeatedly the president you know he busts Norm's right and left and since the impeachment trial ended he has taken after the witnesses as was been men and others we had a story this week where it shows that he has put least they have been fired or removed about a 3rd of the National Security Council many of whom were people that Trump did not like Trump does not like being given advice on foreign affairs or security matters and so he is. Cutting down his national security staff which is also quite remarkable overseas we are seeing political appointee ambassadors firing their deputy chief of mission the number 2 person at the embassy just because they don't like them again they have a right to do that but it's just not done traditionally these are political appointees who don't like the career serve foreign service people this week the Treasury secretary Stephen minutiae refused to promise to Congress that he would avoid political influence from President Trump in imposing sanctions on foreign governments So everywhere we are seeing evidence that President Trump is trying to influence areas of government that traditionally a president does not do and is breaking down of barriers some people say would because you mention Tracy that we've always had from the very beginning very founding of this country separation of powers 3 branches of government and let's name them again you said there's the executive branch that's the president there's a legislature that's the Congress then there's the judiciary Supreme Court and and so for the president seems to just blur them all together for his own ends I think it's fair to say that and there are some critics who say that this is really again something we don't see in this country traditionally and it's happening now is it too much to say that the rule of law in this country came believe I'm asking this but is the rule of law in the United States eroding big question 10 surely and one of the other things that's happening is through the president's many many public statements faith in the agencies is a road faith in the instruments is a road and he's done a lot to undermine the reputation of the f.b.i. And the CIA and Dia when he talks about the deep state and all of this sort of fatally institutions is a road again and I think one of the. Things here that you're seeing is that President Trump values loyalty above all else and he expects loyalty from people individuals and agencies that are not supposed to their top loyalty is not supposed to be personally to the president I mean it's almost like and there's been plenty of writing about this in the last couple of years but in a way he sort of acts like he was for most of his life the c.e.o. Of a privately held company where of course you can do whatever you want to know you can fire people at will but United States government is very different animal in the sense is he doesn't quite understand that he's in a very different eco system now he doesn't understand or perhaps appreciate it right he doesn't understand it or doesn't choose to understand it there was a joke said by a Republican early on that you know President Trump arrives and says what 3 branches of government who knew you know he thinks it's all him and that's how he is always run his his enterprise and to to echo Ashraf not just faith in the institutions is eroding but faith in truth and in press is now the enemy of the people according to President Trump and so I think the public no longer has the kind of shared consensus of you know basic facts and basic reality and that has is something that I think the president has managed to erode as well adding to all this where someone highly unusual comments by you mentioned Bill Barr the attorney general of course the top law enforcement officer in this country who said that trumps public comments meddling in cases like the stone case he says it makes it quote impossible unquote for him to do his job are says and I'm quoting again here quote I think it's time to stop this tweeting about Department of Justice criminal cases now the president surprisingly who comes down like a ton of bricks on anyone who so much looks at him sideways says well I'm not bothered by these comments from my attorney general what do you make of that us. Well I would imagine must be really interesting to be Donald Trump's attorney general I'm going to wait to see if this is some sort of schism where Barr kind of feel like he had to say this and this is kind of something the tone of bars comment was something you get from a lot of Trump deputies and underlings were there just like they're not questioning the man they're not questioning that they're not even really question the judgment they're just going oh gosh you know I kind of wish he wouldn't go on the tweet storms but oh well that's what you get and it's like it's not a real he's not really bothered by it it's an inconvenience on the way to somewhere and I think that's a tone you get with a lot of Trump deputies we make of it Tracy Yeah I agree I think we have to be a little skeptical Let's see I mean if the tweets really make it impossible for him to do his job he would resign right and so we have to see what comes of this it does seem a little well timed a little suspicious bar was good coming under such criticism for an apparent lack of independence he might have felt he had to save face a little bit and for trying not to come down on him suggests that perhaps this was prearranged we just have to wait and see when I remember that Trump's 1st Attorney General Jeff Sessions the former senator from Alabama Trump sort of came down on him when sessions kind of Constance himself a little bit from what the White House was doing so right trot never forgave him for recusing himself from the Russia investigation and trashed sessions incessantly and daily daily and sessions just kept you know kept on until hounding him out of office well I've got just about a minute or so left here and there's one other story that I wanted to get here we go to Africa for the former president of Sudan is going to be tried in The Hague for war crimes or alleged war crimes I suppose I trace you give us the story well this is Omar al Bashir the former president of the Sudan tens of thousands of people died or were killed in the. Are for what you may remember in the early I guess 2000 and he continued to serve as president until fairly recently finally being overthrown and was never brought to justice you know people were killed civilians killed starved to death rampant disease you know as a result of the killings in the in the in the famine and so finally he's going to be sent to the criminal court International Criminal Court which is remarkable you know you've seen so many terrible tyrants over the years who escape any kind of justice and I think the Bosnia war and you know some of those officials did end up at the high just thinking of Slobodan Milosevic Milosevic carted shit out of in Carthage and so it's to me as someone who cares about chust in the world I'm always heartened when I do see someone like this sent to the to the Hague for trial a fair trial evidence will be presented in a prosecution and a defense but it doesn't happen as much as it should I think and so I think we should you know really take note when it does well is quite a big case obviously and we have to keep an eye on it in the year weeks and months ahead I'll have to end it right there bored time out flies by here doesn't our thanks to 2 of Washington's most prominent journalists off for a cool little of the Associated Press and Tracy Wilkinson she is with the Los Angeles Times good to see you both of you thanks for coming on this program was produced by Kim Lewis our engineer Justin Thwaites and I'm Paul Brandis of West Wing reports in the USA Today thanks for joining us. From v.o.a. . USA here's your host Kashmir. Welcome to Press Conference USA on The Voice of America joining me on the program is v.o.a. Senior political analyst Brian Padden our topic on this edition of the program political polarization in America and around the world our guest Heather Hurlburt She's director of the new models of policy change initiative at New America and innovative think tank based in Washington formerly known as the New America Foundation New America is a civic platform that connects a Research Institute of Technology Lab solutions network media and public forum Heather Hurlburt leads research into how policy advocacy can be effective under intense political polarization she guides advocates and funders navigating politics on behalf of policy solution. Ins previously had the Hurlburt ran the National Security Network a premier source for foreign policy messaging and advocacy and she held management positions at several not for profit international humanitarian organizations such as the International Crisis Group human rights 1st and the one campaign Heather also served in the White House and State Department under President Bill Clinton worked on Capitol Hill and was a member of the u.s. Delegation to the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe or 0 s c She is a foreign policy columnist for New York magazine and co-founder of l c wins the leadership council of women in national security an organization which advances gender equity in the national security workforce especially its leadership and Heather Hurlburt joins us here at the v.o.a. Broadcast Center in Washington welcome to the program thank you so much for having me and I'm delighted to welcome my colleague view a senior political analyst Brian Patton thank you Well Heather let's begin talking about the new models of policy change project on which you're working at New America tell us more about that look or insight behind it was that for the post war and post cold war period Americans were used to the idea that we made policy by people coming together in the center of the political spectrum and sort of compromising in the idea that good policy came out of compromise where each side gave up something even a casual observer of our political scene today knows that that's not working very well and that we have shifted toward a politics and a kind of polarization where being perceived to give anything up is fatal yet you do still see in some areas criminal justice reform is a big one that everyone likes to talk about that Republicans and Democrats can work together across. Party lines to get important things done and our idea is that where we're successful these days doesn't come out of me saying well I'm going to compromise and be less my ideology but me saying I found a policy that I can tell my supporters fully represents our ideological views and someone else can tell their very different supporters that it also fully represents their ideological views so that you can in fact work with people that you disagree with very profoundly on specific ends without necessarily compromising over overall and that kind of approach actually in an era where increasingly Americans are sorting and defining ourselves along identity and ideological lines is going to offer a much more hopeful way forward but there are certainly topics on which this is very difficult like gun violence and let's say social issues like abortion and so forth I'll give you an example of something that seems one of the most polarized areas in American life Greg you're actually seeing deep polarization in interesting ways and that is climate change and again it's been a trope of American politics for years now that views on whether climate change is real or not we're very strongly divided on partisan grounds that if you told me your partisanship I could predict what you believed about climate change that's not true anymore in the past 3 or 4 years and frankly especially in the last couple of years after the last round of extreme weather we've had belief in climate change has deep polarized and you can also find a set of policy solutions that get very strong support from both Republicans and Democrats and frankly the trick is to the extent that an idea is not already associated with one party or the other partisans of both parties are prepared to like it but once you tell them this is the Green New Deal associated. Progressive Democrats then Republicans know that they're supposed to hate it or if you say this is the free market response to climate change developed by libertarian Republicans then progressive Democrats know that they're supposed to hate it so where you've seen actual success in taking actual pro climate and energy security policies has been mostly obviously not at the level of the federal government but at the state and local level where libertarians and liberals can work together faith based communities from both sides of the partisan divide can work together and do things like open the grid to competition increase use of solar and wind power and other pragmatic steps that nobody turns on their favorite talk show host and hears them yelling about but that they're kept out of the partisan space or they're defined and marketed separately to partisans on different sides so that's how it works that's how it works I have a lot of questions but let me turn to my colleague Brian for a question well it's seems like it by employing language of diplomacy whereby various parties can pretty much cast these decisions in life that best benefit their constituents seems to work but if we move from climate change to immigration there was you know an experience recently where Republicans Democrats were coming together and then the Republicans revolted against their own party and their own making of a deal because the loud voices within social media constituency groups get into the process and make any sort of progress impossible Well I'm so glad you mentioned both of those points I mean 1st because as as Carol mentioned I started my career in diplomacy and so maybe it's natural that I bring the sort of no permanent friends no permanent enemies only permanent interests to everything that I do but the falling apart of efforts to churn out an agreement on immigration like by the way the falling apart of efforts at the federal level to get a climate bill back about a decade. A to go now very similar profile of what happens where it's not so much a grassroots rejection of a policy as Americans we have these 2 large political parties that are so big and they cover so many different interests that they're hardly political parties in the classic more narrow sense that you would find in countries that have a multi-party system but instead they're coalitions of interest so at any time say within one party a party's energy lobby is fighting its environmental justice lobby or a party's solar power lobby is fighting its fossil fuel lobby so if you think about the immigration one where you had a part of the Republican Party that was very eager to make a deal the sort of pro-business lobby that wanted a steady supply of workers people from represented from certain parts of the country who just want this issue off the table versus another wing of the party that derives power from its ability to harness anxiety and energy around this question and if we think about politics as endless jockeying of coalitions and then if as actors behind say an idea whether that's immigration reform whether it's education reform and then you say what is the coalition I can put together on this and one of the real ways that the governance in the United States has weakened over the last decade is that again and again people who had managed politics from the center underestimated the ability of their opponents to undermine them within their own party so we've seen where both Republicans and Democrats thought that they could control their own party from the center and in the end they couldn't and I think that the immigration collapse you're referring to was a great example of that Heather notwithstanding your efforts to bridge these divides the polarization in this country it seems like it's gotten much worse over the last years particularly under the Trump administration what are your observations about. Today's political climate polarization especially in contrast to your days in the Bill Clinton Administration Oh he was also impeached for very different reasons but there was a sense of remorse a sense of contrition which we didn't see exhibited by President Trump and now he is lashing out with retribution we've seen several civil servants and public servants have been removed from their posts as a form of retribution How do you see all of this and are you concerned I've been in the business long enough that when I started out in foreign policy it was absolutely normal to serve administrations of different political party and in many cases as incredible and naive as this sounds we didn't know the political views of our colleagues in the foreign policy space it was something incidental that maybe came up over drinks that maybe never came up and that was normal I used to tell young people coming to Washington you get one party change now you don't get any party change so the degree to which every aspect of American government and American Life has been caught up in this kind of splitting and defining where in comparison to the rest of the world we had very strange political parties in that they were very mixed and you tended to belong to a party based on maybe what party your parents had belonged to or the tradition of your town or where you lived and you had enormous ideological overlap through the sixty's and then in the seventy's the process that we're seeing now in the extreme form that you describe really starts after the Civil Rights Movement when there starts to be a massive realignment 1st in the south and then in other places where we start seeing people identify party membership 1st with racial identity in the south and then slowly over the last couple of decades we've had some mass migrations along religious lines less so along gender lines but so that now if you tell me your low . Full of education your ethnicity I can predict proof strongly what your political affiliation is going to be which at the same time has increased the number of things that we think political parties should tell us what we think on which goes back to the question about how do you keep an issue from getting polarized there's a wonderful piece of research that came out after the 2012 elections that was actually commissioned by Republicans thinking about why their candidate lost and they asked the young people who do you think are the leaders of the party and for young Republicans it was talk show hosts and radio hosts so one of the things that has happened in in polarization is that 1st we have sorted ourselves so that we encounter fewer and fewer people who think differently from us and 2nd we are instead of again taking our cues from the kind of centrist establishment figures that we maybe think of in the past we are now as a society taking our cues from voices that tend to be maybe more disassociated from the actual consequences of decision making and that tends to accelerate polarization and I think that helps explain how we got to the point where that you described where instead of being seen as a nonpartisan and Eddie government employees are now presented as active participants very much against their will in this sort of polarized conflict how do you bridge this gap where right now you say on local levels in certain situations there is some common ground and some common sense solutions being proposed where it's not particularly politically polarizing issue or at a lower level of an issue yet the parties that we have now are moving in the other direction we're very much polarized we're very much moving farther apart and the parties benefit from that how do we get to the point where the parties benefit from cooperation rather than competing for not here again. And actually the examples from international affairs are really interesting and really the best way we know that the polarization happens is when presented with a larger outside threat and I actually think that this is one of the ways that the polarization is happening on climate change that as more people really started to see what extreme weather looked like in their communities the other way that we see the polarization happening and this example comes actually both from recent elections in Nigeria and in Kenya where you had countries that really people feared were so politically polarized as to be on the brink of cataclysmic mass violence and the way that's been described by people who were on the ground at the time as they said we looked into the abyss and we didn't like each other or agree with each other anymore but we all saw the same abyss and so obviously my work mostly tends toward ways of helping people identify a common external opponent in the case of climate change but I think something that particularly relevant for people who work in media is the question of how can we all see the abyss the same way how can we all see together the consequences of the kind of never ending spiral that you describe We'll have more in just a moment but 1st you're listening to Press Conference USA on The Voice of America our guest is Heather Hurlburt director of the new models of policy change Project at New America that's a think tank based in Washington I'm Carol Castillo along with senior political analyst Brian Padden this is a reminder that our press conference USA podcast is available for free download on our website at v.o.a. News dot com slash p.c. USA You may also follow us on Twitter or connect with us on Facebook at Carol Castiel v.o.a. Well here's a shout out to a loyal listener John Moloch from Juba South Sudan if you want to hear your name and home country on the air please send an e-mail to p.c. . USA at v.o.a. News dot com or like us and leave a comment on our Facebook page Well back to our special guest Heather Hurlburt And Heather you were talking just before the break about looking into the abyss and recognizing that we have nowhere to go but perhaps to come back together but I don't see that personally here in the United States in the wake of President Trump's impeachment and then lack of removal by the Senate from office we're seeing a doubling down and the Republican Party just basically going along with him exacerbating the polarization and even using conspiracy theories that have been debunked and this information promoted by Russia saying that for example Ukraine was responsible for the interference in our 26000 election when it was documented by 11 u.s. Intelligence agencies and confirmed by the Muller report that certainly it was Russia the Republicans of abandon so many of their previous bedrock principles of free trade deficit reduction even promotion of democracy and free press in favor of these types of conspiracy theories presumably to please Mr Trump and to remain in power they are multiplying these theories on social media platforms now we know there's always some exaggeration in campaigns some hyperbole we're in the election season they're all trying to enhance their prospects but it seems to many analysts that what is happening with Mr Trump in the Republicans in this case that they were crossing the line into dissin from ation How do you react 1st of all to say that it's very humbling to have you give a shout out to a listener in South Sudan and and be reminded just how deep the abyss is and just how courageous human beings can be in confronting it so you know ironically I don't think this was your purpose when you framed the question but we Americans told ourselves for decades that we were special and different or that our system of government was and that some of the dynamics and dangers of polarization and Dison from Asian that we saw happening in others. Societies could never happen here so one of the things that gives me both great concern but also great cause for optimism is that there is so much we can learn from how other societies have dealt with these kinds of situations and I'll start by looping back to the Kenyan and Nigerian examples I mentioned because both of those were in context that were equally fraught and terrifying I mean in many ways much more terrifying for those societies then the prospect of this year and the possibilities for ratcheting up of tension and frankly concerns about political violence here that you see so on the one hand the thing about the us is that we still do have tremendously strong institutions I mean frankly including the fact that we're having this conversation on Voice of America tremendously strong institutions at the state and local level and a tremendous civic memory so those are all things that we're going to need to draw on and I am very very concerned and one of the reasons that I say yes to as many media opportunities as I can is to have this conversation as often as possible so that again we are all thinking about what are the consequences of our actions and our choices and one of the things again that we see in societies that have either successfully turned back from the brink or that have not succeeded in turning back but that have rebuilt themselves later is where you have both high level government change so I think you rattled off a whole lot of distressing things that are happening at the highest levels of government that many of us in a nonpartisan way had hoped we would see more response to but that's not sufficient without also in media in state local government in faith communities at all levels an effort to really try to rebuild a sense of norms and institutions so we're going to have to do both together here in the u.s. We have our social. Media platforms like Facebook reneging on correcting obvious false hoods on political ads so that's also worrisome a platform which is used with algorithms and by nefarious actors to promote this information now saying that well it's a free market we're not going to get involved in that doesn't help to disabuse people of the kinds of conspiracies and so forth that are being disseminated on either side of the political aisle you know and I think it's worth mentioning here again that for example Finland has a really interesting program where every young person gets a pretty serious curriculum in spotting just information and that we actually can learn quite a lot from how other countries are handling this problem and that although we feel that we've never been through anything like this before and there's no question that the speed with which this information can travel is really different from anything we've encountered but in an ironic way our society which is so technologically advanced and we're all so wired and so turned on but we're now able to create information bubbles for ourselves so that in some ways the challenge is not fundamentally different from what we've seen in very rural or isolated societies where people have only one source of information that's feeding them hate speech and incitement So again we can go back and learn from people who have had this experience in very different contexts a very good point and I think we should mention this week the transitional military council in Sudan is turning over Omar al Bashir to the International Criminal Court which is really an incredible act of courage an amazing thing to see about how really foundational aspects of the international system and of ideas about human rights and justice are working even in this moment where they seem to be a challenge from somebody else I want to ask you about the notion of individual responsibility and here you touched on that you're going to zation somewhat of a Democrat leaning organised. Asian And I think journalists to a certain degree and Democrats to a large degree had the kind of the a reassessment after President Trump one election and kind a look at some of the issues that that side was pushing for on immigration and such that might have been considered very controversial or very extreme and they were brought more into the mainstream Do Democrats on your side to Republicans their side is there a need for them to kind of recognize the other side and say hey I need to legitimize some of your concerns on some of these issues what you just said is the most fabulous example of how polarization works because actually when new America was founded it was founded by people who were trying very hard to avoid partisan labels and who really wanted to position the organization as if not centrist than floating slightly above or apart from partisan politics but in an age of polarization that is not possible and I am under orders from my bosses to protest vigorously whenever anyone describes us as left of center but we get described as left of center all the time and that is because of how ideas have gotten associated with political leaders So just to note that that is absolutely part of the total izing kind of polarization that we're having again successful cases where societies are de polarized or a spiral toward violence is interrupted 2 things happen One is that opposing groups as you say recognize and acknowledge each other and we have Zia cols where not necessarily again that you decide you agree with me on an issue but I know I can speak to you about my perspective and you at least recognize me as fully human and a full participant in our shared society so that kind of bridging platform is critically important the other piece is in trauma group dialogue which is where you are. Able to say to your colleagues in the chocolate eclair party don't do that that's extreme that's outside our shared norm in the chocolate eclair part so both of those Diane exposed the external bridging and the internal ability to maintain norms within your own group are a little bit under threat in the u.s. Right now and we saw that during the 2008 election with Sen John McCain when he cautioned one of his own supporters to say who was calling then candidate Barack Obama a Muslim she called him an Arab and he corrected him and said no he's a good man we have some political views we disagree on but we're both good Americans for the most point right or I would contrast recently representative Lynne Cheney saying that the president shouldn't go after a lieutenant colonel even been other Republicans shouldn't criticize shouldn't question the value of his service as compared to people who chose to say that there were very fine people among the murdering neo nazi protesters in Charlottesville but for the most part we're not seeing that from this president ministration we're seeing a very strong attack mode for any sort of criticism which I guess heightens and sharpens any sort of divide and there was criticism back in the Obama years that he was too arrogant and not willing to work with Republicans is there a formula for getting parties together at the highest level forget the lowest level can this government function at the high levels and produce results so no we can't function at high levels right now but actually in part because we know from international conflict resolution experience that if you're just trying to do it at the high levels you fail that the interesting part is and also if you try to do only grassroots peace building that will also fail because the people at high levels have their interests and if you are working against their interests they have power to contravene that what actually works and again whether it's the u.s. Or anywhere else is that you're going to have. To have a both and where somebody like if Anka Trump or Tom Cotton or other sort of future Republican politicians or any of the many many Democratic contenders that we could name right at the moment Find believe that it will be in their political interest to be seen working with the other side that's a sort of both and approach I also want to say that we know from international experience that the phenomenon you described when people within a party stop being able to police their fellows or when they start being criticized and ostracized for attempting to uphold norms that's a very dangerous moment historically that when moderates quote unquote within a party lose power to uphold norms that's a moment that you're really headed for danger I think we're headed for danger given for example Republican senator Mitt Romney's vote to convict President Trump in the Senate the sole Republican vote and now he is being vilified ostracized perhaps he maybe even need security this is dangerous a very scary moment we're living in we know that Colonel Vaniman even before he was removed from the White House he had to have security personnel I think Adam Schiff the Democratic chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and the chief manager of the impeachment inquiry and needs a major security guards because Mr Trump in particular has called him corrupt lying and vilified him to the point where his followers who are blindly following him might take up action against him might in fact there was an attempt on his life Adam Schiff I was working in the State Department during the Clinton impeachment and it's very striking to me to think back that there were publicly reported stories the female members of the cabinet kind of ambushed the president and laid into him about their distress at his failure to uphold the dignity of the office. There was an ongoing public debate among Democrats as well as Republicans about whether he should serve out his term whether he should resign whether he should be convicted the vote in both the House on impeachment and in the Senate on conviction were mixed partisan and that it was considered perfectly politically viable to be a Democrat or a Republican who thought either way about that and that's only 20 years ago astonishingly to me so that really how relatively quickly what we thought was a bedrock of American politics I mean the reason that I have a research program at all is that we didn't think American politics was like this so this is still kind of new and surprising indeed and we're seeing these kinds of divides in foreign policy what were once bipartisan issues like Middle East peace have become terribly politicized or even trade even President Obama was promoting the Trans-Pacific Partnership which would have thwarted China and its to Farias and unfair trading practices its use of intellectual property but Mr Trump decided to withdraw from that and engage in a trade war and now tariffs and so for the again Sin fact in all kinds of areas and this is shocking and difficult for international partners to understand frankly who have often assumed that there is an enormous continuity in u.s. Foreign policy and it's gone from being one of the least polarized issues in American life as you mentioned at the beginning of the interview there were issues such as abortion such as criminal justice such as health care that have for a long time been very ideological but traditionally foreign policy national security wasn't one of those issues but now if you look at the polling it's actually among one of our most polarized issues with some dizzying flips like how opinion on Russia flipped ideologically right around the time of the 2016 elections that before that basically forever since post World War 2 Republicans have been more hostile to Russia and Democrats have been more accepting of. Comfortable with Russia and that flit you know within a matter of months it's just fascinating to watch well we'd love to have you back to talk more about those wonderful stories Heather Hurlburt is a former senior government official now director of the new models of policy change project at new America's political reform program Heather thanks again for coming in for your time and terrific insights thanks for having me Press Conference USA on The Voice of America was produced in Washington thanks to Kim Lewis for booking our guest our engineer was Justin weights and joining me on the program was v.o.a. Senior political analyst Brian Patton I'm Carol Castillo join me again next week for another press conference USA on The Voice of America. This is being away nourished by David for the World Health Organization has expressed concern about the increasing number of health workers getting infected with the deadly coronavirus known as coded 19 Lisa Sharon has more from Geneva executive director of w h o health emergencies Michael Ryan says it is not unusual for health workers to become infected during disease outbreaks He says the w.h.o. In China are exploring the time period in which the infections have occurred our understanding is that there are cases among health workers Pete.
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