And we are so excited to have you with us tonight to discuss tim max new book misfire in inside the downfall of the nra. You can find this book and more at east city Bookshop Online at our website on various social media, and we are currently open to customers tuesday through sunday. Before we get started a quick detail if you have any comments or technical issues that you need help with please let drop those in the chat and we will help you help you with those as we can and if you have any questions for tim, please throw those into the q a feature because there will be time for audience questions after the discussion if you havent purchased your book yet. You can do that that by following a link to our website which will be available in the chat. We appreciate independent upon support for authors and indie bookstores, and you can show that support by purchasing your copy through the city bookshop and we still do have signed copies available. And so before i turn it over i just want to do a brief introduction for the two people. Well be talking with tonight. Tim mak is the National Public radios washington investigative correspondent and was one of nprs lead reporters on the Mueller Investigation and the first trump impeachment. While reporting for the daily beast in 2017. He broke the story of russian agent maria bhutena and her connection with the nra. He can often be heard on nprs warning edition and all Things Considered an nprs politics podcast. Shannon watts is the founder of the nations largest Grassroot Group fighting against gun violence moms, demand action for gun sense in america the day after the sandy hook tragedy shannon started a Facebook Group with the message that all americans can and should do more to reduce gun violence the online conversation turned into a Grassroots Movement of americans fighting for Public Safety measures that protect people from gun violence. Moms demand action has established a chapter in every single state in the country and is part of every town for gun safety the largest gun violence production Prevention Organization in the country with over 6 million supporters. So, thank you so much, tim and shannon for being here tonight, and i will turn it over to both of you. Thank you so much and tim. Im so excited to talk to you about a subject that has consumed both of our lives for for many years the nra your new book is amazing and really its the most indepth look weve ever had into the nra. Its not pretty we learn the extent to which the nra is. A laughably corrupt organization something that surprised me is really how weak their leader is Wayne Lapierre. Hes at the center of so much of what is wrong with the nra and if theres anything thats thats clear. And its spelled out in your book. Its really that the nra looks out for themselves. Not their members not america, not gun rights. This is really about how they can amass trips on private jets and lavish dinners cigar Club Membership luxury apartment rentals for their interns. I mean things that are bizarre for the nra, but let alone the fact that theyre a nonprofit allegedly and theres so much friction also within the organization. We have executives undercutting each other at every turn they go behind each others backs and then again sort of a strange figure that that Wayne Lapierre sitting at the top of it seemingly both aware and in different at the same time the book runs through a maze of issues that the nra has had in recent years this boys club frat house culture of an organization the vendors calling all the shots the the russia. Boutina scandal current state of affairs at the organization but ultimately and i think whats most surprising. Is that what we learn is that nothing much has changed in the organization and outside of the organization and in their work on on the issue of gun rights. So tim i want to ask you, you know a little bit about the process. What was it like to write this book . What was it like to do the investigation and and was there anything you uncovered that was surprising or appalling or just sort of bonkers . I can think of a few stories you wrote about that were bonkers, but love to hear your opinion. Well first, let me say shannon. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this q a with us and really appreciate you doing that. Look one thing that was so interesting about doing this project was i kind of wrote it during the pandemic years right one of the big breakthroughs and this isnt really a story in the book. This is kind of a story about a process, you know, one of the big breakthroughs came in 2020 in around the march april time frame when everything was shut down because of covid and one of my sources indicated that the source was willing to provide some documents. What ultimately became hundreds and hundreds of pages of critical source documents . These are secret sort of secret depositions that were filed under seal in court and unavailable to the public but they showed things like Wayne Lapierre talking for a lot hours under oath about what happened inside the nra all of the north millie hollow. Thats Wayne Lapierres close assistant and other major figures in this whole nra saga talking for hours and hours and hours and so this source indicated that that they might be willing to provide some these documents, but all all Public Transit was closed time. I was able to get a cab or anything what i ended up doing was i rented a moped in washington dc and i drove for what seemed like hours and hours and hours and i met an individual in a parking lot in what seemed like the middle of nowhere and the person rolled down the passenger window and said that the documents. Are in the front passenger seat, so i reached in and pulled out the documents put in my backpack and i moped it away. And that and those documents turned out to be kind of one of the main sources one of the main, you know documentary sources for the book. There was so valuable. I mean from an evidentiary standard you have these folks who are saying in their own words under oath. I mean theres a penalty a legal penalty if you if you are to lie under obviously and so they became this Gold Standard. Its Gold Standard for evidence. And thats kind of one of the interesting stories that just kind of happened as a result of doing this. I love a good deepthroat story. Its like you its almost like watergate you met in the parking lot. You know, you Like Exchange the documents you right away on your moped. I dont know if there was a moped in the deep throat story, but we did we did try that. We did try to follow the money in this in misfire. Comments other than giving you substantiary evidence. Was there anything that stood out that was shocking to you that that you just couldnt believe when you read through all those documents, or was it more just context and background . Well, whats so interesting right is as you know, the nra has so many years been this black box. It doesnt really they dont really provide much in the in terms of personality or information about what happens behind the scenes except what they put out in very kind of tight lipped pr messages, right . And so what was really interesting was to find out what was really happening behind the scenes and some of the personalities involved and you hear some of this these stories but to see them in the words of some of the main characters of the story the Wayne Lapierre, so the story was just stunning and so these these transcripts formed a basic understanding of what happened and you fill it out. You know, i i did a hundred and twenty english with people inside the nra universe as part of this and on top of these secret depositions. I also obtain things like internal nra emails and other sort of private nra documents to write this book. So you mentioned personalities and i want to talk more about the nerissimus deeds because its one of my favorite subjects, but i i cant not talk about how you portray Wayne Lapierre. I think most people would think that he was maniacal cunning just this amazing lobbyist who was able to make this special interest the most powerful wealthy special interests, really thats ever existed in our country, but the portrait you paint of him. I think someone said you quoted someone who said he had the backbone of an eclair. Which is really quite a visual, but but hes actually very weak and and sort of ended up where he is by accident. Is that a fair characterization . Hes someone whos over a period of time kind of failed upwards every step of the way, you know, he was someone whos described. By people whove known them for decades has never really wanting to be the head of the nra like his dream is to own an ice cream shop in may right . Like thats like thats an interesting way to look with the head of one of the nations most powerful and controversial organizations. He you know, the book starts with the scene at Wayne Lapierres wedding. Yeah, it starts with wayne not showing up to the ceremony and he want to get married. His best man puts 100 bill on the dashboard and says and i dont think you should get married either can get out of here. We can leave you dont need to do this. Wayne ultimately goes in side the the church. And is kind of bullied almost be rated into talked into this this ceremony and it what follows is this weird event and and attended by all these nra luminaries, right . All these poor people that are important throughout the book and theyre watching as the super weird ceremony happens where windlapse here cant make eye contact with his bride. And like theres a reason to pay theres a reason to to tell the story right Wayne Lapierrez described by people whove known him for very long time as we willed as someone who isnt assertive is super anxious really scared and and kind of someone who when a mass shooting happens. Hes less concerned about the victims or even the issue. Hes worried mostly in primarily and firstly about his own personal safety and he begins this kind of pit of selfpity where hes worried. Oh, oh my gosh. This is gonna be bad for me personally. Is his major thought after Mass Shootings . Um, this is someone though in the anecdote has a point or these anecdotes have a point which is to try to explain why the nra instances dire financial and legal trouble. You have to understand that the head of this organization is so easily pushed around and the people who the people who surround him have realized that they can get what they want from him. If only they pressure away in la pierre hard enough or they yell at him long enough that hes eventually going to approve millions of dollars on in unwise or selfdealing contracts to vendors the nra or these golden parachutes to former executives who worked there for a really really long time and then when they leave they get paid incredible amounts of money to do basically nothing at all. Were talking about a lot of the allegations of corruption that im sure will be talked about this evening all that bubbling up in part because wayne likes chaos or or his personality at least leads to it. In the book to that point you describe ways that nra executives ignored maybe purposely circumvented the organizations own internal controls, which were meant to prevent that. Did the nra board just fail to oversee . What what these executives were doing . And and if so, why . Yeah, as you know nonprofit boards have a serious responsibility right to oversee the nonprofits and make sure that they are following all relevant laws the board of the nra though. Is made up of 76 members 76 members so, you know one person compares it to the poly bureau and in terms of how it makes this decisions and then when you look a little bit deeper you see the resumes of some of these folks who are Board Members and you see a lot more gun activists on the board than you do people who have backgrounds in accounting or finance or law this an organization that in 2016 took in more than 400 Million Dollars. You dont see a lot of folks on the board with resumes that would suggest that they have an ability to oversee an operation of that size and complexity and seriousness. It will and and the nra, you know, they have to make annual disclosures. They have to follow certain rules. Were were they actually stupid enough to think they wouldnt get caught . I mean, do you think that that the nra has gotten into compliance now with nonprofit laws or whats happening right now internally. I think for a long time they just felt like there was a culture of impunity and no one in particular was really looking that deeply into it there have always been troubles at the nra when it came to internal whistleblowers. I mean, this is a longstanding problem with the nra that theyve had complaints going back to the 90s about these sweetheart deals for contractors who are being paid way too much for the work they do but you know what we have more recently in the last few years is a number of whistleblowers. Basically sounding the alarm on practices inside the organization as well as outside investigators congressional investigators the new York Attorney general who are really interested to know whether the nra is fully complying with the law and as you can as you know, the new york attending general has found that thats not the case that there were tens of millions of dollars in misallocated funds by the nra and that the new York Attorney general is has filed Student Court to try to dissolve the nra entirely because of what she calls corruption on the part of the nra Wayne Lapierre and other senior officials of the organization. So when you boil it all down, do you think that the your your reporting and the book shows that theres more corruption incompetence a combination of it all by entering leadership . It all leads in one after the other i think right that that theres bad. Theres bad intention. Theres but theres also ignorance of the law and its its mixed in there all together to lead to this total catastrophe you look at the state. The nra is in now, its its in a greater crisis than its probably seen. Arguably any time since its inception youve got some of the nras own members. Kind of revolting demanding change in the leadership and Greater Transparency in the organization. You have some board of some directors on the board openly protesting how the nra is handling their business got a financial problem. Thats so serious that in 2018 as i point out in misfire. They almost couldnt make payroll. Thats how serious it was for any organization. Thats a full stop, you know five alarm five. And then you have the new York Attorney general and other investigations the new York Attorney general being the most Serious Investigation in which dave launched a lawsuit. The office is launched a lawsuit that seeks to close down the nra entirely. I mean whether you think thats likely or not or whether a judge will do that. There is a serious possibility that that could happen and that really strikes the very heart of whether the nra can continue to exist. Id love to hear more about sort of the the expensive tastes and the lavish spending by by nra leadership. I mean, what did you find out in the book in detail . I know for example, they spent thousands of dollars at an Italian Restaurant in virginia, and and also, you know, you just said that Wayne Lapierres best friend told him he would give him a hundred dollars if he didnt get married. I think you know so often women are given a bad rap, right they have to they have to take the blame when when a man misbehaves but in your book, i mean it sounds a lot like what wayne lap here is doing is out his wifes dream. You talk to people who have known Wayne Lapierre for a really long time going way back to the 80s and you ask them. Did Wayne Lapierre have a interest in italian menswear was he like super interested in the finest . A italian food or you know did was he the sort of person who would be super excited to go on a trip to the bahamas. People who know him and have known them for a really long time. Say that. That was not who Wayne Lapierre was before he got married that he was kind of mr. Rumpled suit that he you know, he he wore cheap shoes and he was perfectly content to do so he was kind of absentminded egghead type professorial could have been an academic instead of the head of one of the most controversial organizations in america. You know for all the things that that people describe about Wayne Lapierre, they describe Susan Lapierre very different. That where Wayne Lapierre is kind of weakwilled that shes extremely bold and various assertive and that she has you know that she has an incredible amount of influence over Wayne Lapierre one interesting fact is that wayne lapier doesnt use electronics. He doesnt use email. And that the person who has access to his email account is actually susma appear on the other side. That if senior staff wanted to reach out to Wayne Lapierre, they would reach out to susan and that just shows you how ingrained Susan Lapierre is in Wayne Lapierres life right that you know not no one really had a sense of just how important Susan Lapierre was to the operations of the N