Nearly every company will cut corners, but sometimes theyll do it at a cost to the health and the safety of their workers and to the publics privacy. And for whistle blower thats just not going to work. Im john kerry. Ok, welcome to the whistle blower, the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 actually give it was a highly motivated, highly educated tech with when she began working at apple in 2015. She was hired as a program manager. She was making good money. And she had a great deal of responsibility. An incident in her personal life where there was an environmental danger in her apartment complex a tool and her 2 Environmental Issues at work too. When apple announced internally that it was going to conduct something called a Vapor Intrusion test, she checked in saying that it was unsafe for employees. Spoiler alert. She was right, of course, but the company pushed back hard shortly thereafter. Ashley fainted at work and did not know why this contributed to her concerns that apple had not properly tested the work side for contaminants. She also believed apple had not sufficiently informed employees of the possible Health Problems from Chemical Exposure. She was told that apple had no legal requirement to do so, but ashley was on to something. As it turned out, the building in which she worked for apple was built on a toxic waste site that was supposed to been managed by the defense giant northrop grumman, a carcinogen, called try coral. Ethylene was known to have been disposed of there and had leaked into the soil. Even the government admitted that the ground water at the site was contaminated. A government study in 2019 found the issue had been addressed, but then in 2021, employees were found to have been exposed to pause. This fumes through cracks in the floor. Actually filed complaints with the Environmental Protection agency and the National LaborRelations Board. She also filed a whistle blower, complaint with the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and with the u. S. Department of labor. And when she approached apple about correcting all of these problems, she was told her only option was simply to work from home. More whistle blowing was to follow, actually complained that some of apples internal policies on employee privacy, on the privacy of the public. And on the retention of documents and user data were unethical, she even filed complaints in the u. K. With the Data ProtectionInformation Commissioners Office in the counter part office in brussels. And didnt dublin with the Data Protection commissioner. Those complaints are still under investigation. Not only did actually not receive any help, her satisfaction from apple, the Company Began to harass her in response, she took the twitter to air her complaints. Consequently, she was retaliated against repeatedly and was transferred in the end. She was fired. Some of the complaints actually made are still being investigated on others. The National LaborRelations Board found that she had told the truth and the apple had overstepped. Its bounce had retaliated against her and had deprived employees of their constitutional rights. I have wanted to meet Ashley Gilbert for a long time and im very pleased to have her with us on the show actually welcome. Its great having you. Thank you so much for having me. Im excited to meet you too. Oh, the pleasure is mine, and my goodness, there is so much to ask you when you decided to blow the whistle on wrong doing it, apple. You really decided to blow the whistle. Tell us about how this whole thing got started. It was all about Environmental Issues at the beginning. What made you initially decide to make that complaint . Yeah, it turned into something very, very complicated, but it started into something very simple, which was, i moved into the new apartment complex and i got very ill immediately. I was on short term disability. I thought i could be dying doctors or standing me for a bit on this is i have 7 months later i discovered the apartment was built on a toxic waste split up site. And then 2 years later, i find out that my employer at that time apple was operating a secret. Somebody, conductor manufacturing plant outside our windows is entering a bunch of solar into our windows. Um, so there was solid exposure of that was the root cause of my illness. And through that experience, i learned about the clean up sites. I learned about how to do that. And theres a lot of ways whether youre at work or just, you know, in your home that you can be so specific. Make you very ill. I assumed i was not the only one who did and i was not. So i, under the, i did to figure out whats going on and report it to never been easy to use. So we finally got to the bottom of it. It is being investigated what was implicated. But through this i kind of became what i call an arm chair expert cindys cleanup site and environmental laws. So all of that was happening in 2020. I was not satisfied with the government responses, so i ended up publishing an extra day. What happened to me and asking for more intervention . And the beginning of 2021. And right at that time, an email comes into my inbox with apple saying that they want to test her office for me for intrusion. And thats all it says. But i had become an expert at this point, so i knew exactly what that term and im and yeah, i had briefly been informed that my apple office was something called a super sunday site by a friend who broke the are not at all. So i lived in that office since 2017 and shes like, you know, thats a really bad super fun to site. The kind of explained that it was about pollution and toxic waste, but id kind of put it aside. Um and, but that all, you know, the lights went off when i saw that email, that what theyre saying is they want to test and see if that toxic waste from superfund site and the groundwater and slow was pushing up indoor, indoor air when we were at our desk and we were breathing it in. And through this experience, i also learned that in Silicon Valley to the most common chemicals, are track coral ethylene t. Rush person agents and very, very dangerous. So from that email, i start looking to the documentation, start asking questions, im very dissatisfied with all the answers, im say, not just from my employers oversight of the office, but how the agent overseeing it, which is not at all that kind of neglected it werent paying attention and then as soon as i start asking questions and identifying issues which the later confirmed, all my concerns were correct and they have the same concerns. Apple started just, you know, trying to shut me out, retaliated, telling me not to tell anyone else. They didnt want me to tell the government what they were doing. Um, so, okay, awesome. Choose from there. Good lord, we should say to that a superfund site is a site that is so toxic. Its so dangerous that the Environmental Protection and ministration has to come in at a cost sometimes of billions of dollars to try to clean it up. But like any government bureaucracy, sometimes they do a great job. Sometimes they do a terrible job. And it sounds like in this case they did a terrible job. A very interesting you what you said is correct, but like to add another angle, which we appreciate if someone that works in the federal government, theres a lot of politics about funding and to clean it up and especially considering a lot of these sites, even if not directly or the right, theres a lot of the stuff or is it was a lot of military operations. So how does the federal Government Force itself to clean up stuff when they dont want to . How do they force corporations do when corporations ultimately, if theyre big enough to just say no, im not going to do anything. So its a lot of compromise influence. Some funding, some tax, their dollars goes into trying to help clean this up, which is very demoralizing. When you will, the issue to companies with so much money made a massive should just clean it up. And it seems like the rest of your whistle blowing happened in very rapid succession after your initial revelations about the Environmental Issues. And the fact that apple was literally sitting on this toxic superfund site. What then led to your decision to make additional disclosures . Yeah, so i was experience even started with the apartment and seeing the response to the government. You know what i just said. Now im kind of thing of stockholm syndrome, of like let me explain why they tolerate companies to not clean this stuff up, but when it is all started, it was shocking to me that you could have this kind of pollution that science and Medicine Show can cause cancer until people dont even tell people they do the very bare minimum of cleaning it up. And then when you raise concerns, even when you are very ill and all my symptoms turned out to be solid and exposure, all of them were diagnosed by an occupational exposure doctor is like all that is solid research. You dont have a mask, you dont cancer, you dont have an aneurism without, you know, all the other stuff as before. But even then the responses were very clear to me that these companies and even the government didnt really care if i lived or died. It was just kind of business and as i started looking into that more, this is a huge issue, especially for folks they dont have a lot of resources for me or reprogram discrimination along stocks like hot spots or in areas with black and native people with People Living in poverty, but even less is so its kind of like a big own sacrifice stands for the use of property or just to let some people that i asked me that was so jarling and upsetting and fundamentally changed me in the way that i viewed my relationship with these companies, including my employer. So when my employers response to my questions about my office, especially after everything ive just gone through and they knew it was Chemical Exposure to uh, it showed me, they dont care if i live or die either. And in fact, they want to cover it up and make sure i dont tell any of my co workers that are housed could be a risk just because a liability. So for me, it just shifted by me where i lost any of that, you know, assume good intent or cognitive dissonance you have at work when you dont necessarily align with your employer. So use basically something kind of upset to you leave it to the side. And i was just done because they were, they saw me completely disposable i work, you know, 80 hour weeks for nearly 7 years. This company i did everything i could to try to help them with their products and problems in teams and make things better. And they literally are just like, dont tell other people that theyre going to be cancer too. So as they started retaliating, i really, i had no rose colored glasses left, and id love to know what, what was the reaction from your colleagues. Youd been at up at apple for almost 6 years, where people supportive after all this, this directly impacted them where they helpful to you. Did they pull you aside privately and offer support or did they just put their heads down and walk away and try to protect themselves . So i was very unique and st. Cultured by. Theres my talk comparable to many other companies. If any they find themselves with extreme secrecy. They brag about all their x, the i a and say theyre like the private sector, c i a. And so they really, the culture is based on not true information publicly, not sure, and information with each other. Im not going things, im pretty sure they are using the id control system for our disclosures when they were coughing in a row, you know, so its very departmentalized and thats when its that most of our friends are coworkers, right . When youre told anything about your work and they started giving the service to jail for basically we can see you just kind of keep it internal. So most of my friends were my co workers and the ones that work along with all of this were very supportive who they were outrage just along with me as everything that were seeing. But then apple. So i may not have talked to my co workers to not tell anyone about whats going on, and i go along with it for a little while because i was terrified of them. Sure. Here. Then i kind of break when theyre retaliating more clearly covering up the Environmental Issues really pressing off till a day. And so i kind of the 1st taking a public was taking a public just to the communication tools of the company. And its also a for apple that was public because theyre so secretive. And there was just an outpouring of people who also have these or stories of trying to raise real concerns and just being immediately reevaluated upon and being covered up. So many people not to tell anyone. So there is a huge response there that was positive, but then there was also backlash from a lot of people that for some reason, are used to or rely on the system of secrecy, saying, are we doing your concerns about work conditions . Dont tell anyone. Theres already backlash there and then when i was all ready to go in public in august when i went on twitter and just start sharing stuff. So it was clear, my employer was doing nothing helpful and just mostly the various. Yes. So i start internal documents and time, you know, the public, whats going on i, theres also a mix. There were more co workers that came forward probably as well, and also share their stories. But then a lot of backlash, a lot of smears. One of the vision and apples and fueling that, of course, for the last couple years to try to get everyone to fight each other. Because we have any hope of actually improving things as workers we need to organize. So they seem to be doing everything they can to not have us do that and all of their sectors. Disney retail, isnt it . Im sorry to interrupt you in the intern between your revelations and the corporate decision to try to push you out. What was it like for you inside apple where you kept at arms length . Did the company try to implement any changes based on your revelations . Or did they want to fight from the beginning human resources, for example, which was supposed to protect you . Certainly didnt protect you. Ill also point out that apple ceo, tim cook, sent out a company wide email about you, that at least to my eyes seemed like a threat. Yes. About one of the reasons i think i didnt even think that my installations would go anywhere. So it was immediately just documenting everything kind of go on and this would be lost to them. I would have to take the public because i raised real concerns about face the, my bosses only, not the telling one of my safety concerns. I go to h r and this is like the bare minimum of what a shower should do is like explain the labor laws to executive. But in fact, you were telling me its against me openly and refuses to explain the safety productions to him that employees can talk about safety in when shes doing that. It just, it kind of showed me, okay, everythings set up now to push me out. There not seem, it doesnt matter what my position was, what i complex, what might not, you know, network the months to your directors and the fees didnt matter. They were going to, its near me, destroy me, push me out, find ways to fire me. And so they kept doing that. And thats, you know, its come out. Thats a very strong pattern from them. Um and yeah, i closer to me getting fired. I, the bosses did it to office. One of them was giving me a bunch of projects that were set up a little to make everyone upset of me. And then the other ones are moving me from projects and emails. Not responding to my emails, which are 2 of the things that they love to do and they situations. So yeah, i be removed from even my actual responsibilities. Im being repeatedly told not have to go work or is not the organized. And then as im pushed out on leave within a couple of days, im hearing, theres meetings about me across your organization saying theyre going to like talk about me. Its the next all him which was clear to me that i was gonna be fired. I already knew that were gonna fire me, otherwise theyre not talking about me while im at all hands. So you know, theyre already showing everyone. Okay. Were pretending ashleys out on this. We use that were cleaning is not tentative. So were clearly gonna fire her work there and for it. So at that point, a lot of people pull away. I start losing a lot of friends. Theyre scared, i dont blame them because it happens sick culture. Its a real fear of retaliation. And ive had to deal with that said last, most of my friends, they were co workers, the ones are still there, some of them even left the country. Right . Yes. So this is what i want to. I kind of says in addition to the retaliation, the Environmental Issues, the end, the age and the culture of secrecy, i felt charges about that. But the email that tim cooks that which i think definitely reference me, i think at least one other person and was definitely a threat to his entire staff. He said, but anything internally confidential and they will fire anyone who shares anything internal. And he was referencing a meeting where he talked about pay equity and benefits. So the me now, you know, they come out to what we see. So have many very clear, like we are standing behind our culture. So i about church, you know, are we agree with me that email is a violation of federal law. Most of apples and the asian employment policies also violate federal law. I sent them like 20 different documents, including the employment agreement i signed when i joined. And so theyre working on it sounds like a complaint. Now lets. If apple doesnt settle, it shouldnt go to court. An apple i expect is going to be use on dozens of charges against these policies because theyre officially legal. And so im hoping it starts to help a see change at apple where employees can try to speed up a little bit. I think it was a very long time. No. Because everyones so used to secrecy and then somebody shouldnt feel. Ashley. Thank you very much. Hold on to we are going to continue our conversation with apple whistleblower Ashley Gilbert about her experience with a wide variety of whistle blowing at the tech giant. Were going to take a short break and then come back to talk about life after whistle blowing state to.