complication of covid-19, over 7 million people infected will become the next plea conditioning condition allowing insurers to jack up their premiums or deny your coverage all together. and women again will be charged more for their health just because they are women. folks, we can do so much better. i will build on the affordable care act so you can keep your private insurance, you can choose a medicare-like option. we'll increase subsidies and lower your premiums. your governor is working hard to expand medicaid, but it is being blocked by republican leng legislatu legislature. my plan will automatically enroll in a public option for free automatically. and it will make a life-chac dlg dch for difference for so many families. but we need to come together as a country, we need to revive the spirit of bipartisan, a spirit of being able to work with one another. when i say that, i'm told well maybe that used to be able to do that, joe, that was your rep pew you tags in t reputation, but changes have changed. i'm here to tell you that he this can and will and they must if we're going to get anything done in america. folks, i'm running as a proud democrat. but i will govern as an american preside president. no red states, no blue states, just the united states. i promise you, i will work as hard for those who don't support me as those who did. that is the job of the president, a duty to care, to care for everyone in america. folks, and you too have a sacred duty, to vote and it matters. north carolina matters. and senator harris and i had are asking you for your trust and support. we'll always have your back, i promise you. so please, please vote is and help get out the vote. go to iowa vote.com/nc. early voting started on thursday. we got to keep the incredible momentum going. we can't let up. you can vote early in person until the 31st. but didn't wait. go vote today and don't just vote for me and senator harris. you have a governors race, a senate race, a record number of women on the ballot. the courts. folks, they are ready to deliver for north carolina families. so vote. vote. it is time. it really is time. when i announce my candidacy, i hadn't planned on running again to blunblunt. my son had just died and i had no interest. and then i saw those folks coming out of the fields in charlottesville, carrying torches, close your eye, remember what it looks like. their veins bulging, shouting anti-semitic bile, the same while that was shouted in the streets of germany in the 30s today, carrying nazi flags, accompanied by the ku klux klan. and a young woman was killed who was protesting the opposite direction. and when asked, the president said something no other president has ever said in the history of the united states of america. he said there are very fine people on both sides. very fine people. folks, i mean it when i say this, it is time to restore america's soul. it is time to rebuild the backbone of america, the middle class, and this time bring everybody along no matter your race, your age or religion, your gender, ethnicity tior disabili. we can do this. the blinders have been taken off the american people, they have seen what happens. it is time to unite america. look, i'll never forget what president kennedy said when i was a kid and we were going to the moon. every kid in school had to hear his speech. he used the line in that speech my senate colleague and the white house heard me use all the time. made the most impression on me. he asked the unasked question, j are we doing this. and his response was, he said, because we refusion to postpone. this is america. we refuse to postpone america, there is work that must be done. there is nothing beyond our capacity. we have never, never, never, never failed. there is no limit on our future. the only thing that can tear america apart is america itself. even knows who donald trump is, so let them know who we are. we choose hope over fear. we choose unity over division, science over fiction. and, yes, we choose truth other lies. so folks, time to stand up and take back our democracy. no more time left. god bless you all, and may god protect our troops. thank you, thank you, thank you. >> that was a voice to his crowd certainly amplified by the honking car horns. we've known that it was a drive-in event and we clearly saw and heard evidence of that. you saw a very energetic joe biden, he was jogging up there to get on to the stage and really fun to have that -- all of his comments and that speech punctuated by the honking car, people showing their support there in the -- not quite what you call the group, but nonetheless, this was in durham, north carolina. and as we bring in our panel, i want to go first to ali vitali who has been on the ground there. it was pretty loud, it looked like people were really enjoying themselves. talk about the top points that he made. seemed to be a ltd about coronavirus, a lot about the acp and really appealing to people's health. >> and that has been the pitch there joe biden over the last few monks, linking trump's mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic with items that we already know democratic voters are energized by, the need for health care. the need to turn around the economy and get back to work. that has been the underpinning of the biden message for the last few months. certainly the foe kalg point he focal point. honking from buses, cars, and i guess that is how you show enthusiasm in the age of 2020 when you are doing drive-thru rallies because of the pandemic. those hallmarks were all around in biden's pitch and in the way that the event looked. i want to show you know how he talked about the president's mishandling of the pandemic. listen a bit. i thought we might have had that sound. but basically the crux of the message is reemphasizing the distinction between trump's focus on something like the stock market, what biden was calling the park avenue viewpoint, acontrasting that wih scranton and the more middle class message that biden brought with him here today. and he also focused on health care saying that he would build on the affordable care act, also the mention of criminal justice reform and spoke to issues greatly impacting the black community here in north carolina and frankly across the country. we're 16 days out from election day. this was a voter mobilization events. one of the most traditional things that candidates can be doing. and i counted five or six explicit asks of the crowd here that now is the time to votes. he said it is go-time. and his campaign is also pushinging to mobilize both themselves and friends of theirs to get to the polls. in north carolina, more than 1.4 million votes will already been cast between in-person early voting and mail-in ballots, so biden coming here making sure that the trend is voting and that he can turn out his coalition. because at this point over two weeks left until election day, that is the key. you built a coalition, you have done the grass roots organizing, now you have to get them to turn out to the polls. >> and to your point earlier in the day, over 1 million people have already voted there and they have to keep up the energy. ali vitali, thank you. and now to my group here. we have a former deputy assistant of state and spokesman for hillary clinton, and jonathan alter is author of "his very best," and also a political correspondent at business insider. and finally jesse moore, former obama white house speechwriter and adviser to joe biden's campaign. jesse, do you like what you hear from joe biden? did he stay on message and is it the right message for north carolinians? >> to turn out the vote, yes, that is the message. and also don't sleep on the shades coming out at the end there. that is always a good look. the era of a drive-in event is a little -- it takes some getting used to, but i think introverts of the world will' u unite arou this concept. you can be supportive while being safe. so it is a reminder of how safe the campaign is being and then you get to hear the vice president's message which is that we are focused on the middle class people of this country, we're focused on truth and decency, and it is just a reminder every time you see him speak directly to the people what it is like to have somebody who is thinking of actual other human beings, other people, families, thinking of, you know, what the job of the presidency is, to lift those folks up. >> yeah, jonathan, i want to ask you as we look at the stats around the state of north carolina, there are 15 electoral college votes. it has 23% registered black voters there of their entire electorate. it is the most hotly contested of the states in terms of the black vote, hotly contested states that rhee ma s thas that. why is job thinking that he needs to spend time in north carolina, aren't there other places that he probably should be focusing on? >> no, actually, i think it is quite smart of biden to be in north carolina for two reasons. one is that he has broadened the battle field here. and so states like arizona and north carolina are very much in play and he wants more routes to those 270 electoral votes. if he can get them from north carolina, he can nail down the election. and because north carolina is on the east coast, we may actually hear early, if norlth carolina ghes for bid for biden, that wo be a bad sign for donald trump. and thom tillis is in the fight of his life and people are assuming that susan collins will lose in maine. but she may not lose. there are internal polls that show her doing a little better recently. so you want another route to those three senate seats that they need to take control if they also get the white house. because a bidenrd is presidency without a democratic senate won't get very much done. so that tillis seat is super important. and north carolina is a great place for him to deliver his message to suburban women who are moving toward him but he needs to hold them, he can't have erosion in his support. and the one thing that he didn't mention in an otherwise very good speech is that he won't raise your taxes if you make less than $400,000 a year. that is a very important message to those suburban voters that you can expect him to include in the debate. >> yeah, something he hasn't wavered from. i'm sure that he will have that in the debate thursday night. felipe, let's talk about the voting issues, the ballots that have been lost, tossed, whatever the rumors have been. the fact is in the state of north carolina, we've heard that black votes have been tossed four times over those of white votes. that there are some that have been disenfranchised, that they said these votes aren't right, they have not been filled out properly so we can't count them. how concerning is that, what effect might that have on the cumulative vote there in north carolina? >> well, to be honest with you, irrespective of this election, that is just hard to hear and terrible. and it is no coincidence. you know, the republicans know that for them to win, whether it is for donald trump or for their senate seats, they need black americans to not vote. they know that they won't get them to vote for republicans, so the next best thing is suppressing the votes. and you know, we've been dealing with this for 20 years since ballot issues in terms of recount and learning what a mess our electoral system is. in terms of 2020 from a political point of view, i would say -- i don't think that it is a question certainly not in my mind whether joe biden is going to win or not. it is a question of how deeply and how broadly. and the math is harder than it looks. but even in places that he is winning even if you shave half of the points where he is winning, 5% thankfully is enough to absorb a lot of this funny business, whether it is intentional or otherwise. whether it is voter him intimidation, whether it is ballot destruction. and you listen to the numbers about the explosion of early voting, those aren't republicans. those -- that skews toward democrats. democrats are not going to take a chance on anything. so while it is a horrible problem that has to be addressed, and that is another reason why democrats need to not only win the congress and the senate but statehouses and governorships, but it is this year, it is unfortunately going to happen, but fortunately, i don't think that it will be dispositive in the outcome. >> and i'm sure joe biden in the debate will talk about his position on taxes. but the fact thwall street and e economy in general has almost somewhat baked into the cake if you will a potential biden win and things are steady as she goes. how much does that hurt donald trump and his campaign trying to be the one who is the stronger of the two for the economy? >> yeah, it is really interesting. because that has been trump's strongest argument so far, that if biden wins the election, you know, then the economy is going to tank and the stock market is going to tank and people will lose jobs left and center. but as you noted, the market hasn't really wavered in response to predictions that biden will wins election. certainly that makes it more difficult for the president to keep making that argument. and one thing i want to add to what was discussed about the black vote, in addition to voter suppression and issues, you know, with ballots in north carolina and other states, one thing that is really important to focus on is also voter depression, which is being led largely by a lot of social media disinformation campaigns that are not aimed at making it more difficult for black people to vote, but at convincing them that it is not even worth going to the polls in the first place. and basically instilling a sense of apathy among them. so i think that is also part of the reason why we're seeing the former vice president make this pitch to black voters, talking about the aca and covid-19 which has of course disproportionately affected black people and minority, but also talking about how he will help boost historically black colleges. we sawcob blake ageorge floyd. so it could be a potential issue and they are trying to get ahead of that. >> and so drawing on your experience in playing in the hillary clinton prep, how does anyone prepare for being constantly interrupted? >> it is not easy. you know, there are only two people in the world who debated donald trump one-on-one. joe biden and hillary clinton. joe biden had the advantage of seeing what hillary clinton went through but when we were prepping hillary in 2016, before that first debate, you really didn't know. all you can see is what he did during the group debates in the primaries. and frankly, he wasn't very anxious to speak in those. he was more than content to throw some blood in the water and then let his poopponents go crazy trying to reacts. but the beg way to prep for a second e67b9 is going through the first debate. joe biden i'm sure went into the first debate saying yeah, i get it, i know what is coming my way and then there is this shock to the system when you are 10, 20 feet away from someone who is just yeed ruerupting and interr you. joked before the first debate if i were joe biden, i'd say hi, i'm joe biden, chris wallace, thank you for moderating and thank you cleveland for hosting us and i now yield my time to donald trump. and in hindsight, that is exactly what happened. i mean, when your opponent is making mistakes, get out of his way. so the interrupting issue, you know, if every time donald trump opens his mouth he is making it worse for him, i don't know that i would worry too much about it. i know that sounds counterintuitive, but you countrioy out-interrupt him. and a kristen welker will have a problem, and savannah guthrie, shes ma she was masterful in pressing him directly and relentlessly in making him answer the question. and if kristen can do that and if biden can sort of get out of the way, then i don't know that there is much to do. joe biden getting used to it, you just need some monkey with the clapper thing just to try to focus. but if i were joe biden, i'd just stand there. >> jesse, what are your thoughts on this? i guess just to s-- is it just about joe biden not making a mistake thursday night? >> i think that is too simple. he has a great story to tell. personally and in terms of the policies he is prioritizing for the country. so to the degree that he can get a word past the interrupter in chief to say to the american people, you know, remember as you are listening to him, you know, where he is, where was he when covid was ravaging our country, where was he on health care and where he is in court trying to take it away from over 20 million people and strip protections away from people with tens of millions of people with pre-existing conditions, all while looking the people directly in the eye and saying i have your back, i'm helping you. he needs to just make the contrast as clear as possible, like here is a leader, there is a liar, the decision is easy. >> jonathan, do you think that there is one issue and if so what is it that needs to be pushed in this debate to be a pro biden issue where he says this is my plan, this is what i want to lay out for america for anyone who is not totally clear about it yet. given the fact that there are like this many people that still have not decided for whom they will vote. i mean, think about it, usually debates, they can be clarifying, they can bring up questions and all that, but the stats are that most everybody has their mind firmly made up. >> right. so i think that he just wants to reemphasize his message of build back better. next year if biden wins, we might be talking about the bbb program. he has a plan for america. donald trump does not. he has nothing to offer in a second term. so keeping the emphasis on covid and on the future and on protecting the american people. that is job one. all of the american people. and biden, one of his big discontinues from distinctions from trump is he promises to be president of and i will the people. and that is an appealing message. the last time when they debated, there was a president on the stage and it wasn't the president. it was biden. so acting presidential is extraordinarily important at this point in the campaign so that people are comfortable with this transition and they almost say, yep, biden is the president, he should be the president. >> so to that point, within the trump campaign right now, are they expecting donald trump to sort of back off a little bit based on the poor reviews that he got for his performance in the first debates? i mean, that may be the plan, but ulgtsly is there anybody who can control him ors that the campaign said go be donald trump, that is what your supporters want? >> his campaign advisers have actually tried for a long time to kind of get him to reign himself -- rein himself in because when he behaves the way that he did in the first debate and during the town hall, that, you know, it is a -- he sees a negative reception. so his campaign has actually tried to rein him in. but as we've seen over the last several years and even during the 2016 campaign, donald trump's only boss is donald trump. so he will do what he wants to do at the end of the day. i don't -- i wouldn't say that his campaign is optimistic that he will be in control tomorrow. and so that is why the bar is a lot higher for him than it is for joe biden because biden can really just stand back and let the president take the spotlight and that might end up working out in biden's favor. >> great chat with all four of you. thank you for staying with us and joining. good to see you all. meantime, the president is on his way to california right now for a fundraiser before a rally in carson city, nevada tonight and this comes as the president faces growing criticism for holding august those packed rallies with little to know masks, nor social distancing. ska today the president's daughter-in-law is down playing the severity of the virus. >> there are more than 220,000 dead americans, laura about much there is literally no objective health expert who thinks that the president has done a good job with this pandemic. we have the highest death rate -- >> that is not true. >> -- in the entire world. >> here is what i'll tell you. we're coming out of it, the death rate is decreasing dramatically. and we have a huge population, wh compare us to europe. we're doing better than europe. >> no, we're not. >> these are numbers, you can look them up. >> i have. >> and this comes as the clock is ticking on whether house democrats and white house officials can indeed make a deal on coronavirus relief before the election. and today house speaker nancy pelosi says she is optimistic. >> what you are doing in michigan has been amazing. now, you got to get your governor to open up your state, okay? >> if you don't get that agreement in the 48 hour deadline you set, what happens? >> here's the thing. the 48 only relates to if we want to get it done before the election. which we do. >> let's go now to carol lee for more of the backlash following the president. so as you know the president also being criticized for going after governor whitmer. what is that about? >> reporter: yeah, the president went after governor whitmer at a rally in western michigan yesterday targeting her essentially because he says there are a number of people in the state of michigan who were upset with restrictions that are in place because of coronavirus. he has called on her to open up her state, said that there is a lot of frustrations out there. that prompted the lock her up chant from the crowd which then the president sort of fed off. take a listen. >> what you are doing in michigan has been amazing. now, you got to get your governor to open up your state, okay? and get your schools open. get your schools open. the schools have to be open. right? >> lock her up. locker her up. >> lock 'em all up. >> reporter: the lock her up chant and the president saying lock them all up comes after the plot that the justice department said that they foiled and had uncovered to kidnap governor whitmer. and she is saying that the president was in his comments inciting violence and could lead to further threats against her. laura trump pushing back on that, here is what they had to say. >> he wasn't doing anything i don't think to provoke people to threaten this woman at all. he was having fun at a trump rally. and quite frankly, there are bigger issues than this right now for everyday americans. people want to get the country reopened, they want to get black to wo -- back to work. >> it is disturbing that the president of the united states ten days after the plot to kidnap me, put me on trial and execute me, ten days after that was uncovered, the president is at it again and inspiring and incentivizing and inciting this kind of domestic terrorism. it is wrong. it has to end. it is dangerous not just for me and my family, but for public servants everywhere. >> reporter: you heard a number of campaign officials, trump campaign officials, today basically defe basically quendi basically defending the president, basically focusing on 9 restrictions that she has that people are frusz traited with. and in terms of the governor calling on him to stop making these sorts of attacks, that is highly unlikely to happen. that is not the president's way. he has used this sort of rhetoric since really the 2016 campaign. we're a couple weeks out from his re-election campaign. if anything, he is ramping up. as far as his schedule today, he went to church this morning in las vegas, he is heading to california briefly for a fundraiser, his campaign badly in need of some funds. and then he comes back to nevada and holds a rally later tonight. >> carol lee, thank you. long lines, the early voting numbers compared to 2016, how do they compare? that is ahead. ♪ here? nah. introducing the all new chevy trailblazer. here? nope. ♪ here. ♪ when the middle of nowhere, is somewhere. the all new chevy trailblazer. making life's journey, just better. amy coney barrett could be faced with a big decision. democrats on the judiciary committee pushed her to consider whether or not she would recuse herself related to the presidential election because of trump's comments that appear to politicize her nomination. and this was her response. >> are you able to commit to he recuse yourself from disputes that rise out of the 2020 presidential election? >> senator leahy, i commits to you to fully and faithfully apply the law of refusal and part of that law is to are consider any appearance questions. but i can't offer legal conclusion right now about the outcome of the decision i would reach. >> and joining me now, made police take murrdemade ligs a made ligs a melissa murray, nyu professor. and we hope that harry lippman has been able to join us. anyway, let's get to the "washington post" article that highlights the 2009 supreme court case. it requires a judge to could you say themselves if there is a serious risk of actual bias. what are your thoughts on this? might this apply to judge barrett? >> well, to be clear, supreme court justices are not bound by the same recusal rules that ordinarily constrain other federal judges and we've seen a number of calls for recusals from justices that have gone unheeded. for example, justice thomas' wife last been engaged as a lobbyist with a number of different conservative groups and that has raised some questions. and it calls for him to recuse mgsz fr r himself from certain cases and he has not done so. and justice scalia was asked to recuse position from cases involving dick cheney because they went duck hunting together and he never did. so they are not bound by the same rules. >> and in fact the issue came up during the hearings this week, let's take a listen to part of this. >> the main thing is that doctrine of severability has a presumption to safer the stat t if possible. >> so everyone listen. from a conservative point of view, the generally speaking, we want legislative bodies to make laws not judges? >> that is correct. >> and would it be further true that if you can preserve a statute, you try too to the extent to be? possible? >> that is true. >> and that is severability and how it facts obamacare. so your answer to this question, what is your reaction to what lindsey graham said and that judge barrett apparently agreed with? >> well, i think this was intended to respond to the democrats very disciplined assault on the whole question of the affordable care act and the idea that judge barrett would be poised to be a decisive vote in overruling obamacare. this discussion of severability which is about whether or not the entire statute might be scuttled if one piece is found to be unconstitutional was meant to be clear that even if judge barrett would vote to really the individual mandate unconstitutional, that did not necessarily mean that all of obamacare would be dismantled. so again, a really interesting colloquy, use of the questioning period in a way that was meant i think to respond to the democrats claims that this was going to amount to the disman e dismantling of the aca entirely. >> and given the fact that this issue will be put forth before the supreme court exactly one week after the election, how does this play into that? i mean can you give any sort of prediction as to where this might go particularly if amy coney barrett is indeed confirmed and she's on the court? >> i think senator graham wanted everyone to understand that this particular decision may not necessarily mean the end of the obamacare and aca. but to be clear for the audience watching, the aca is the most lits ga litigated piece of federal legislation in the last ten years. there have already been count ts challenges and regardless of what happens in this particular challenge to the individual mandate, there are likely to be other challenges just as there have been other challenges to various parts of the aca over time. the republicans are very clear that they wanted to overrule and repeal obama care. they were unable to do that through the legislative process and they have instead proceeded to prosecute it through the courts. >> all right. melissa, unfortunately we weren't able to connect with hairy lippman, but we will next time. thank you so much. the early voting rush is on in nevada, voters lining up as early as 4:00 a.m. to cast their ballots. yesterday alone, 18,000 people. and the president is there today hoping win the state that he narrowly lost in 2016. megan fitzgerald is joining us from carson city, nevada. let's talk about what you are seeing there. a lot of people were lining up for the president 00 he rally. how does it stand now? >> reporter: yeah, a lot more people filling in here waiting in line to try to get on to the tarmac. i want to walk you along here so you can see what we're seeing. hundreds of people standing in line, not a lot of folks wearing mask masks, vinrtually no social distancing. keep in mind it was just two weeks ago that president trump himself was hospitalized for covid-19. this rally was supposed to take place then but it was postponed. and now he is back on the campaign trail with a svvengean. and trump campaign folks believe that nevada is in play, the six electoral votes and they point to the president's strength as it relates to the economy. you know, nevada really hit hard by the pandemic, one of the largest unploichlts ratemploymeg a cross the country. but a lot of moles coming out specifically the cbs poll earlier this month showing joe biden ahead in this state by six points. of course you know back to the 2016 election, you remember hillary clinton took nevada by a slim margin. another thing to keep in mind here, really important, latino vote. so far trump has not yet clinched the 30% treasure hohre he needs, so that giving confidence to the biden campaign. but search nev certainly nevada a state to watch, president trump will be here to try to make his case to the american people, just 16 days away from election day. >> meagan, thank you so much. we'll keep an eye on it. and meantime another look at early voting rush as voters line up in 41 states as well as the district of columbia to make their voices heard. as of saturday, more than 27 million of us have voted. this correspond to the u.s. elections project. and joining me now, victoria soto. can you put the big number, 27 million, into context for us? and i'm curious because you are there in austin, the irma pact of texas on that raw number. >> right, so we seepact of texas on that raw number. >> right, so we see nagtional shattering of records with early voting turnout. and we see a tremendous amount of enthusiasm/frustration, democrat-leaning voters after the last in our years of trump. so the democrats, the democratic-learning constitu s democratic-leaning advocates constituents have been waiting for this moment to make anywhth displeasure heard. and we've had a lot of issues among the early voting, but still we're seeing folks taking that opportunity to vote early for health safety precautions. but also because they don't want anything to go wrong. what if you wait until the last minute to vote on voting day and something happens with the voting machines? people have come to understand in this election season that the vote is too precious and you can't leave it up to risk. and i think that is the other piece, this feeling that 27 million americans haveless cast already cast a ballot. >> and governor an about the ordered one early voting location per county and that forced registered voters to share very limited polling locations. a federal judge yefr ruloverrul order but the state is appealing. what kind of impact is that having on voting? >> let me put it into perspective. harris county which is where houston is was supposed to have 12 of these dropoff mail boxes. harris county is the size of rhode island. so for one to get to one end of the other to just get to that one box that is now being implemented can be up to an hour and a half car ride. so that is low ghis particularly the type of impact that this is having. but at the same time, i think that the early voting numbers have shown that texans especially the democrat being-leaning texans are say nothing matter what you do, no matter what you throw at me, i'm going to votes. so they are using the access to the early vote because we're seeing the limitations to the safer option but still making their voice heard. >> and we love having your voice heard. thank you so much. all the presidents' ro properties and how much he owes on each one, it is worse than you might have thought. h one, i you might have thought ♪ it's gr ♪ yeah, it's time for grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ after we make grilled cheese, ♪ ♪ then we're eating grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ because it's time. ♪ yeah. ♪ time for grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ [ engines revving ] ♪ ♪ it's amazing to see them in the wild like th-- shhh. for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. sub out those greasy wings and get that new subway buffalo chicken! or that new bbq chicken! ooo that's sweet! freshly made footlong coming in hot! now only in the subway app, get a free footlong when you buy two. subway. eat fresh. when you look at vast plots like i have, and they are big and beautiful and well located, when you look at that, the amount of money -- $400 million is a peanut. it is extremely underlevered. and it is levered with normal banks. not a big deal. >> there is the president there painting quite a rosy picture of his finances during that town haum. b hall. but it is worse than we thought. less than 12 hours after that, forbes reported that trump has at least $1 billion in debt. his loans are spread out over more than a dozen different assets like you see there, including hotels, buildings, golf courses and the like. if he wins a second term, at least eight big loans will come due while he is in office. and those buildings you just saw, that is not even half of the properties that the president owes money on. i want to bring in david k. johnston, a tax expert and co-founder of d.c. report.org and author of "the making of donald trump trump." so as we get into this, i want your reaction to the forbes story. the president, yes, he may be wealthy on paper, but hundreds of millions of dollars in debt coming due during a potential second term, that is not nothing. >> no, it is not. and with respect to forbes which has done wonderful work on this, this is not new to us who those of us who closely track donald trump's money. the reality is that the federal disclosure rules have a lot of loopholes in them and those of us who follow him have known that he has owed over $1 billion this we're aware of. there may actually be more debt that is owed. on the other hand, it is not unusual for a very wealthy business owner to have a lot of debt. the interesting thing about trump's debt is two things. one, he personally guaranteed over $300 million of it that would come due during a second trump administration. normally real billionaires and trump is knis not a billionaire analyze his money, they don't sign personal guarantees because they have plenty of assets to pledge that cover any debts they take on. but secondly, does anybody think that bank regulated by the federal government is going to foreclose on president donald trump? let's get real. they are not going to do that. >> so i want to play something else that raised some eyebrows during his town hall. >> i have a very small percentage of debt. in fact some of it i did as favors to institutions that wanted to sloloan me money. >> favors to institutions. what does that even mean? >> it is another example of donald creates his own reality. he just makes stuff up. you know, would be day he told me he was worth $3 billion about 10:00 in the morning and at 3:00 in the afternoon he told a journalist in new york city he was worth $5 billion. he just makes this stuff up. >> i have to say that really reflects what michael cohen was telling me last weekend about how he wanted to inflate his self worth and did so. there is also something that i want to ask you about which you tweeted earlier last week and you pointed out there is no evidence of trump owing any money to russia, but he does owe hundreds of millions to doichl ba di deutsche ban ak and would be reasonable to suspect indirect money ties. what did you mean? >> we know that he has gotten a lot of money from russian criminals who bought apartments from him and done other things. deutsche bank is the favored bank for russian criminals to launder money. it has been fined over $620 million for doing that in cypre cypress, germany and the united states. and deutsche bank is well-known to making loans in which someone puts up a deposit or promise to pay on one side and the bank makes a loan to someone who is not credit wore are any like donald trump knowing if the loan is not paid, they cis go back te other party. and said one of my children doesn't qualify for the loan, i'll put up a deposit, you make the loan, i'm insulated and my name wouldn't appear on the loan papers. >> the last question, what are the challenges since the president, since he's personally guaranteed so many loans -- what kind of challenges does he face then? >> if he doesn't have the cash to pay back when the time comes, the next option is to roll the loans over to new debt. and i don't see any way that banks, including deutsch bank, which in the u.s. is regulated by the trump administration, can make deals with donald trump that don't raise fundamental questions about fairness about corruption, about hidden bribes. this is the reason presidents of the united states historically have only owned mutual funds or federal treasury debt and put it in a blind trust. donald trump has a eyes wide open blind trust run by his sons. >> you know what they say follow the money, which you do so for a living. pandemic fatigue, why the day-to-day battle over covid-19 is getting harder to fight. e ov is getting harder to fight what if one push-up could prevent heart disease? one wishful thinking, right? but there is one step adults 65 or older can take to help prevent another serious disease - pneumococcal pneumonia. one dose of the prevnar 13® vaccine can help protect you from this bacterial lung disease that may even put you in the hospital. it's not a yearly shot. prevnar 13® is used in adults to help prevent infections from 13 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. don't get prevnar 13® if you've had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain, redness and swelling at the injection site, limited arm movement, fatigue, headache, muscle pain, joint pain, less appetite, vomiting, fever, chills, or rash. even if you've already been vaccinated with another pneumonia vaccine, prevnar 13® may help provide additional protection. get this one done. ask your doctor or pharmacist about prevnar 13® today. let's go now to the rising coronavirus cases almost every state is seeing some kien kind of increase. the midwest becoming a new hot spot. the country has more than 8 million cases. joining me now dr. kavita patel and syra bedad. >> doctor, some are calling the recent increase a third wave of infections, is that how you classify it or have we gotten out of a first wave? >> you're right. we've never gotten out of the first wave. it's manufactu it's more accurate to think of what's happening today as a peak. it's frustrating because people who have been feeling the pandemic fatigue you referenced, it's real and we're going into a holiday season so there's a lot of pent up emotion about it. make no mistake we're seeing cases rising at an alarming rate across much of the country with the midwest and parts of the west seeing the double digit positivity rates we worry about. with that we worry about people traveling to and from those areas. >> especially with the holidays coming up. >> here is some of the problems facing the midwest states, north dakota running out of icu beds. wisconsin setting records for new cases in a single day. michigan has more than 7,000 coronavirus deaths now. how concerning are these numbers right now? >> they're extremely concerning for many different reasons. we know that over 42 states in the u.s. reporting increasing hospitalizations, the epidemic is expanding in 45 states. we are in an acute phase of the pandemic. the next three months are extremely challenging for america for a number of other reasons as well. right now the mitigation strategies have not changed, still wearing a mask, limit congregation, it's to test, isolate, trace and quarantine. you need to continue the measures, no new interventions are happening. the other thing you highlight is the first peak was largely driven by the northeast. we had a lot of cases here. then the u.s. essentially, about 20,000 cases over a period of time. then summer rolled around and then the sun belt states started seeing an increase of cases, over 70,000 today. as we speak today we are at 70,000 new cases a day. this number is only going to increase. it's important to stay vigilant. our future has not been written yet so we can turn it around. >> you mentioned the pandemic fatigue, "the new york times" is calling this a new culprit, it's creating new risks as the cases soar. it's no surprise that people are tired of restrictions, but how do you get people to still pay attention and comply? >> you have to give people a sense of why we're doing this. it's not just the same reminders. it's reminding them that these -- the way we can kind of fight this is complying with these measures and it keeps everyone safe around us so that we can have a holiday season to look forward to, it's just going to be smaller and it's difference. i like to make the nanalogy it' what we have to do, thinking of making healthy choices we have to make swaps in order to be able to have a longer, healthy life, and that's what we're battling. i think also you have to acknowledge the fatigue and don't minimize it. acknowledge the fact you're frustrated and emotionally limited. but deal with it head on and still move forward and protect the people around you, including yourself. >> last question to you, as we head into flu season, colder weather, how concerning is that for you? how much will that complicate things? >> i think we're in for a potential twin-demic, alarming signs. we know with colder temperatures it brings people indoors, the holiday seasons people want to congregate more. these are factors that can continue the spread of covid-19. so really important we stay vigilant and true to these mitigation prevention measures. >> ladies, thank you so much. that's a wrap for me everyone. i'm alex witt, i look forward to seeing you at noon eastern next saturday. up next, yasmin vossoughian speaks with the medical officer in a state shattering covid records. very sobering. we'll see you. records. very sobering. we'll see you. you've still got game. at aetna, we find that inspiring. but to stay on top of your game takes a plan. that's why at aetna, we take a total, connected approach to your health and wellness. our medicare advantage plans are designed to surround you with the care you need every day to give you the confidence to age actively. we offer hospital, medical and prescription drug coverage in one simple plan. with monthly plan premiums starting at $0. wide provider networks, including doctors and hospitals you know 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