dismissed. it also has the potential to upend fani willis's sprawling election interference case in fulton county, georgia. not to mention, the fact that if trump succeeds with his claim of immunity, it could reshape our understanding about the powers of the presidency. there is a lot at stake, in case you need a reminder, the former president was indicted four times this year, he is facing a total of 91 criminal charges in manhattan, washington, d.c., florida, and fulton county, georgia. a new york judge has also found him liable in the attorney general civil railroad lawsuit against him and his company. a separate judge found him liable for sexually abusing the writer and columnist, e. jean carroll during an encounter in the 1990s. carol is also suing donald trump's second time over defamation comments he had made on cnn in may. his punishment on those two civil cases are still pending. on top of all this, his continuous campaign to return to the white house. the colorado supreme court just ruled that trump is ineligible to appear on the stage primary ballot based on the disqualification clause, which is section three of the 14th amendment of the u.s. constitution. it is gonna be a very busy year ahead for the former president. to give you an idea of how jam-packed 2024 is gonna be for trump world, let's take a look at what's ahead of them just in the next month. we'll start on december 29th. jack smith's other case, the classified documents case, mar-a-lago, trump has to disclosed to the court whether he's going to use what's called the advice of counsel defense. on december 30th, a day later, jack smith's opposition for trump's immunity appeal is due. on january 2nd, trump supplied to the immunity decision is due to the d.c. circuit court. january 4th is the deadline for trump to appeal to the colorado supreme court for the ruling regarding his disqualification from the states primary ballot. that appeal is gonna trigger an automatic stay on the colorado state supreme courts order until the supreme court of the united states resolves the matter. on january 5th, post trial briefs are due for both the defense and the new york attorney general. laetitia james's office of the civil fraud trial. on january 9th, the d.c. court of appeal is gonna hear oral arguments regarding trump's claim of presidential immunity. on january, am i on the right one? yeah, january 11th. the defense and letitia james breaks their arguments of the new york civil fraud trial. the judge can announce penalties soon thereafter. on january 12th, in florida, the special counsel must disclose which expert witnesses they plan on using in trial. by the way, this is an election year, starting january 1st. on january 15th, the first in the nation iowa kolkata's they're gonna kick off the election season. on january 16th, one day later, the second case brought by the writer, e. jean carroll, against the ex president, it's gonna go to trial. finally, on january the 23rd, voters in new hampshire will cast their ballots in the states primary. that's just january. this calendar isn't set in stone. things could shift or get added. for example, if the supreme court of the united states takes up trump's appeal regarding his disqualification from the colorado ballot, his attorneys are gonna need to make time to file even more briefs than that case. you can expect to hear a lot more about that in the days ahead. a lot of people are looking for more clarity on that particular topic, which we're gonna discuss in just a minute. a debate about whether or not it would even be wise to bar trump from the ballot, some arguing that losing at the ballot box would be the clearest rejection of trump and trumpism. the question is whether the country can withstand another attack on this democratic principles, like what happened the last time donald trump lost an election. joining me now is jennifer reuben, an opinion writer for the washington post and an msnbc political analyst. she is also the author of the book, resistance, how women saved donald trump from, democracy from donald trump. also with us, the former republican congressman, joe walsh. he's the host of the podcast, white flag with joe walsh and the author of the book, f silence. although it's spelled out differently on the book. welcome to both of you. thank you both for being here this morning. jennifer, let me start at the last point i made. ever since the colorado supreme court decision, there has been a lot of writing about whether or not disqualifying donald trump from the ballot because of section three of the 14th amendment would be anti-democratic, in other words, the people should decide. i had a long talk with judge luttig about this yesterday. he strongly object to that perspective. he says, the law is the law, the constitution says what it says. this is not a penalty for donald trump, it's a disqualification. you've heard me is the example, if you're not this high, you can't go on this ride at the amusement park. disqualification. people shouldn't get caught up and whether or not we would like him defeated at the ballot box versus disqualified for actually taking part in an insurrection. your view? >> i would not argue with judge luttig on this one. there are many things that are undemocratic. rock obama cannot run for a third term, the constitution says he can't. if taylor swift wants to run for president, she is not old enough, on and on it goes. you must be a native born american. there are lots of requirements. that's the point, we are here to uphold the constitution. we have a constitution or we don't. the constitution is pretty clear. if you ate an insurrection, you don't get to hold a federal office. that was in the wake of the uprising, the civil war in the 19th century. we're back again after an uprising, this time on january 6th. so, what the founders said, once you tried to overthrow the government, you can't come back and try again. the notion that, oh, well, we should take care of this at the ballot box, last time we tried that, he held an insurrection. so, i think it's time to apply the constitution. there is a legitimate argument whether the 14th amendment is a, as they say, self executed, whether you need critical judgment, congressional action. i think the notion that we get to vote for whoever we want doesn't really comport with the constitutional system we have. >> joe, i'm not american born. there are probably some people, most in my extended family, who think i should run for extended -- its -- whether people like it or not. why do you think we're getting caught up in this discussion? it really has exploded mainstream media and last couple of days. the idea, let the people decide. i ask you this, you're a guy who ran against donald trump for the presidency of the united states. i understand would be substantially more satisfying and certainly to the people you talk to, many of whom are trump supporters, they would believe it more, maybe they bloom or if you got defeated at the polls, they didn't believe it last time, so, i don't know. >> it would be, ali, it would be better for the country with two -- at the ballot box. clearly. this is all part of our democracy. our courts are part of our democracy, no one is above the law. it's a key tenet in our democracy. here's the thing, i don't, the 14th amendment is clear, i don't want one single state supreme court to determine donald trump committed insurrection. i believe donald trump committed insurrection. i want the courts more universally to affirm that. i would love the supreme court, in a unanimous decision, to say yes or no. i think that would go a lot further for the country. >> jen reuben, let's talk about the other things that donald trump is facing. he is a lot of stuff on his plate, some of it is affecting liberty, some affects his money and ability to do business. none of it is weakening him in the polls amongst his supporters. there is some speculation though that some of our legal experts have had that once these things become real, once you actually see him in court, in the instances that you may see him in court, or once there are potential convictions against donald trump, that may be very far down the line. that may change it for enough people. as you know, elections are only determined in this country by a small group of people. what's your sense of it? has that ship sailed? are there still people who, in theory, support donald trump, who would say, now i can't do it, not enough evidence that he was actually involved in an insurrection? >> well, polls, you know i'm skeptical of pulls the sorrow from the election. , polls would say that there is a substantial number of republicans who say if he is convicted, i'm off this train. where could he be convicted? although there may be a bit of a delay, the january 6th trial in d.c. will likely go to trial next year. let's not forget, one trial that didn't come up because there's not immediate action in january, is the criminal trial in new york. that's not directly related to january 6th, but it is an instance in which donald trump tried to monkey round with an election and essentially defrauded the american people so they would elect him in 2016. he may well get convicted in that as well. the facts there are very clear. once he starts getting convicted, once he is a convicted felon, we will see how people feel about it. unfortunately, as you point out, the calendar doesn't really help republicans out because they are voting for him before he's convicted. we may have a situation where they nominate someone who is later convicted for a felony. well, that's something they should think about. >> of course, the closer we get to the election, the more political it will feel to some people. i want to get your take on that to, joe, in the moment, we have to take a commercial break. an astronaut for ribbon and joe walsh to stick around for us. we will be right back. we will be right back. so i didn't think i needed swiffer, until, i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it! only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick, for amazing trap & lock. even for his hair. wow. and for dust, i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact, up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked. you'll love swiffer. or your money back! you can save >> all right, back with jennifer reuben, msnbc political analyst -- and joe walsh, former republican congressman presidential candidate. joe, i want your take on this whole thing. do the people you talked to that you still have a great deal of contact with, trump supporters, even gauge in conversations with the mullet, will convictions, potential convictions matter to them? or have they fully bought into the idea that these are unfair, whatever donald trump calls them, witch hunts? we >> ali, let me be scrooge this christmas season. no, to the average republican base voter, they don't distinguish between any evidence, any potential conviction. this is all one giant effort to keep donald trump from running again and to keep donald trump out of the white house. this is the deep state -- altogether. that's how the average trump voter, i would say, ali, the average republican voter feels. to jennifer's point earlier, i actually worry about the opposite effect with all of trump's legal troubles next year. i worry about people outside of his base [inaudible] seems like the justice system is piling on. i've heard a lot of that is well but -- imagine if he's exonerated, if he got off on one of these charges, i really worry about more and more people being attracted to him because he's under such legal duress, if that makes sense. >> yeah, i get your point on that one. jennifer reuben, there is sort of a side story going on. it is that non-trump republican opinion or support seems to be coalescing to some degree around nikki haley. i often wonder whether that's an important subject for conversation for us because she is probably going to be the number two be, she may be number two by 40 points, you know, or 30 points. it has been historically insurmountable. the main guy may not be able to run. how do you think about nikki haley in this conversation? but >> i think she is the longest of long shots. think about the hail mary pass and all of these games, she is the one at the end of the fourth quarter, time has run out, it is desperation time. listen, her path is this, she comes in closer than some people might expect, second definitely in iowa. she turns to new hampshire, there, she's actually gaining quite a bit of ground. one poll has her four down, another poll has her 14. if she by some stretch of the imagination could actually win in new hampshire, we have a race, we have a contest. she may still very well lose me in a hands on, if you want to bet the farm, you'd want to bet the farm on donald trump. it is possible. so, we shouldn't entirely forget about her. i think the real question is what she does after she loses, if, in fact, she loses. is she gonna pylon and become his number two? if she can endorse him like all the other republicans? where she gonna take the principal route that is the liz cheney route and say, i can do everything i can to prevent him from being elected because i care about democracy, i care about the greater future of the republican party? >> joe chimes in. joe says, that's not gonna happen. >> no way in heck! oh my god, no way in heck! i'm watching [inaudible] there is no way. they're all gonna bowed, all except him. by the way, ali, can i take a shot at chris christie. >> sure. >> jennifer reuben is right, nikki haley is the longest of long shot, her only shot is to win new hampshire. if chris christie got out of this race right now and endorsed nikki haley, nikki haley would win new hampshire. i'm tired of all the chris christie love. if he put the country first right now, get out of this race. -- it's the only shot non trumpers in the party have. >> always a pleasure to talk to both of you. thank you for being with us. jen reuben, you also published an important story on a topic we're not discussing in the segment. it is about the israel gaza war. it's been published in the washington post this morning. i can put out on my social media. it's an important piece for lks to read. thanks to both of you. jennifer reuben, opinion writer at the washinon post and msnbc political analyst, author of resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. and the former republican congressman, joe walsh of illinois, and former presidential candidate, who knows of what he speaks, the author of the book, f silence. all right, coming up, it's impossible to grasp the full scope of the war between israel and hamas without eyes on the ground and voices of those who are familiar with past conflicts in the region. one group of former idf soldiers has been documenting the israeli military strategy for years. i'll speak to the executive director of breaking the silence right after the break. ter the break. cold water can't clean tough stains? 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[music playing] >> gaza has seen no rest but the subway series is taking your favorite to the next level! like the #20. the elite chicken and bacon ranch. built with rotisserie-style chicken and double cheese. i love what i'm seeing here. that's some well-coached chicken. you done, peyton? the subway series just keeps gettin' better. this weekend. at least 166 people have been killed in just the last 24 hours, bringing the total number of death in gaza since october 7th in gaza to 27,400. those numbers come from the gaza health ministry. nbc news hasn't been able to independently verify them, but yesterday, i explained in detail whywe h nbc think those numbers are probably accurate and possibly even an undercount of the dead. you can find that explanation online will post it again. israel's campaign continues to empty out entire towns and cities toward the border where civilians are also subject to bombing ongoing airstrikes. nowhere is safe in gaza has become the tragic refrain of aid workers on the ground. meanwhile, president joe biden got personally involved in the unfolding situation overseas yesterday, holding a phone call with the israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu. according to a white house readout of the call, biden reiterated the importance of protecting civilians in gaza, including aid workers who have not been spared from the indiscriminate relentless bombing. the united nations alone says that on average one or two of their workers have died in gaza each day of the war, totaling roughly 135 people. however, biden fell short of explicitly calling for a cease-fire, overwhelming support for such a measure from the international community. that phone call came one day after the united nations security council approved a watered down resolution that urges the immediate delivery of aid. now, since the outbreak of hostilities, we've heard accounts from a number of aid workers from israeli and palestinian civilians, and from politicians. largely absent have been the voices of those who have previously been involved in combat. those who are most familiar with how israeli military strategy plays out on the ground. one such group is breaking the silence. it is an organization comprised of israeli military veterans who collect testimonies from former soldiers to educate the public on how the occupation is actually enforced. a shocking incident last week were three israeli hostages were shot by their own military after -- has brought increased attention to how israel is waging the war. and that is three is hostages, shirtless to prove they were not wearing explosive vests, carrying white flags of surrender and speaking in hebrew, were shot accidentally, imagine what it's like to be an innocent palestinian civilian in the line of fire. -- executive director of brking the silence and a former israeli sniper and paratrooper told the associate press that soldier ts fm previous military engagemts indicate that once in areas deemed clear of civia, soldiers are instructed to shoot everything that moves. quote, the army said that this happened in violation of the rules of engagement. i'm skeptical of that. based on what we know of previous operations in gaza, how many palestinians were shot at like this? and quote. joining us from tel aviv is the executive director of breaking the silence. he previously served as a paratrooper and a sniper for the israeli defense forces. thank you for being with us. i have to ask you, first of all, it's tough being breaking the silence, it's tough being a former idf soldier who gives testimony about what happened when you are there. in times of relative peace in israel, people, particularly in this extremist netanyahu government call you and people like you unpatriotic. >> hi, ali. it is great to be on your show again. yes, i mean, i think that part of the biggest challenge that unfolded after october 7th is the frustration that many in our community and definitely breaking the silence experience. we, four years, have been petrified of something horrific like this unfolding. what we saw on october 7th hit us deeply, hit us personally. i know people that were murdered in the hamas terror attack. some of breaking the silence as members were killed in the various communities on the south. i think there's so much emphasis put in, into the question of why israel went to war where there, i can't necessarily argue, i mean, the events of october 7th were her rough ick. not so much emphasis on how we are fighting our wires. i think as you mentioned, the killing of the three hostages opened up a window into some of the practices on the ground that of course risk, and we've been talking about this for years, they risk the lives of innocent civilian palestinians. in this round, also threaten the lives of the hostages that are still in the strip. we, of course, need the immediate release of them. the dangerous rules of engagement have threatened our civilians. >> let's talk about, you make an interesting point here, i was speaking to her friends from -- that solemn yesterday. again, everyone's clear that what happened on october 7th was horrible, it was a massacre, it was israel, like any country shouldn't would have a right to defend themselves and doing so. the house is important. the international conversation is turn to how, right? the criticism from the biden administration, all the finances so much of the stuff, it's how you're going to do this, how it ends, when it ends. what is your sense of how to think about this? how can this and? how should it and? how does israel keep safe? the feeling amongst israelis is, we would like to be safe, whether or not they want to one state solution, a two-state solution, whatever, people deserve to be safe. >> right, people deserve to be safe. i think part of this means israelis need to be safe. palestinians need to be safe. we believe, or i believe, it's tied together, which i think is some of what we've been ignoring for the past, you know, 20, arguably over 50 years. i think part of what we should be looking at as the situation in gaza is unfolding, it's the immense use of firepower used. some good reporting let's out there, talking about the use of weapons and even more interestingly, the choosing of targets. i think some things we haven't seen in previous operations, this was said openly by the idf, it's targeting houses of hamas members. in many cases, hamas members are not in the house. in previous operations, we've seen warning shots. in this round, entire stories, maybe dozens or more, people that are not involved, not hamas members, their attacked. i think part of the question is, does that make us israelis safer? when you look at the rules of engagement of soldiers from previous operations, talking about shooting anything you see in these areas that we cleared out, right? some soldiers or officers talked about shoe anything that doesn't look specifically innocent. does that make us, as israelis, safer? i think not. i think part of the question, this is now, you know, butting heads, is this ongoing assault on the strip getting us closer to the core of this mission of getting our hostages back? i think not only that the answer is no, it seems that the growing death, you know, the tragedy unfolding in gaza, it's only strengthening hamas, which is exactly the opposite of what this government promised to do. >> ironically, strengthening a massive in the west bank, there is no meaningful hamas presence, you are a paratrooper, you are a sniper, you exist on the targeted part of what existed on the targeted part of the idea of, the criticism and much of the world is that if you insist on running at every last hamas person you can find, do it in a targeted manner. what we've seen is a lot of bombing, in fact, what we're learning is that more than half the bombing is dumb bombs, not targeted bombs. is there a way for israel's very very sophisticated and well-funded military to conduct targeted ways of eliminating the armed hamas threat and minimizing civilian deaths? >> well, i mean, i think in breaking the silence, or not in the job of consulting to the idea of how to be a moral army. i do think that as the reality is unfolding, and it seems as if this operation of wars is not going to end in the near future, maybe some of it will be minimized, still continue, i think it's important to dive into what is, what are the tactics that are being used? from what we know, again, from previous operations, some of the doctrines, the big military doctrines that are used, they're sort of doctrines that were developed in the various gaza operations, definitely in the last war in lebanon. it's called the -- doctrine. it's basically, you know, sort of quoting army officials, using a disproportionate response. i think, in some cases, you know, targeting widespread facilities, someone and so forth. i think in that sense, there are choices that you make in the battlefield. i think those choices start with the targets that you choose and how you verify them. the choices, as you mentioned, they have to do with kind of bombs you use. using a dumb bomb, as you call, it's sort of translating that. you use a dumbbell, mirbase go using a bomb that works on statistics. in order to illuminate the specific target, you have to shoot a big number of bombs in order to make sure that they -- the explosion of each bomb will eventually destroy target. mbthat promises not necessarily intentional killing, that's not what we said or what we have evidence for, maybe specific cases, not a widespread way. yes, indiscriminate bombing. i think that is not a way forward. i think definitely not a way to shift public opinion within the strip. also, not a way to move forward to a day after where we don't conduct our relationship with palestinians in the west bank or in gaza through the scope of our gun. >> we have much to talk about, i hope you come back and join me again. -- the executive director of breaking the silence. we were together in the west bank, including in hebron, where he showed me a lot of what was going on on the ground. all right, coming up in our next hour, and speak with elisabeth price, the united nations consultant who lives in the occupied west bank. late last month, this story even closer to home for her when her son, who is palestinian and white, was shot in burlington, vermont, along with his two friends who were also palestinian. i'll talk to her about the ripple effects of this war and by hateful rhetoric needs to cool down on college campuses. we will be right back. l be right back. sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. deals like these, and many more, happen in the thousands of daily auctions on dealdash.com. all auctions start at $0, and remember, everything must go. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and you know what? 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try the swiffer powermop ♪♪ an all-in-one cleaning tool with hundreds of scrubbing strips that absorb and lock dirt away for a mop and bucket clean in half the time. ♪♪ mop smarter with the swiffer powermop. >> just weeks before the 2020 election, donald trump signed an executive order known as schedule of. you have probably never heard of this. that's because it only lasted a few weeks. when joe biden became president, he rescinded the executive order before could donie damage. now, the order has become central to donald trump's reelection campaign. here's why that's a problem. according to the national federation of federal workers, under the order, tens of thousands of civil servants who serve in rules deemed to have influence over policy, would be reassigned and known as schedule f employees. those employees would lose their employment and union protections when they get reassied this means they essentially become at will employees and therefore are easy to fire. you're thinking yourself, lots of people are at will and plays an easy to fire, why should this matter? well, schedule f could potentially that the federal workforce. strip those job protectionsto from career ment officials who are, in theory, experts that what they deal, fire them, and replace them with loyalists who are willing to carry out far-right policies and be footsoldiers in his self described let retribution agenda against those who he feels have done him wrong. when the new president comes into the white house, are placing some appointed policy officials as normal. the 2 million career civil servant workers are typically left alone. schedule f would allow trump to fire up to 50,000 of them and replace them with like-minded people. earlier this year trump announced a ten point plan to, quote, dismantle the deep state. here are the first two points. the first item on the list is to reinstate the schedule f executive order and, quote, fire rogue bureaucrats. number two, this is number one and two on the list. number two, overhaul federal departments and agencies, firing all of the corrupt actors and our national security and intelligence apparatus, and quote. have told you many times on the show, donald trump is the danger to democracy for lots of reasons. he doesn't have to break anything in order to wreck democracy. this is the part we have to understand, he doesn't have to be dictator even for a day, he could start this process by misusing the tools that are given to the president of the united states automatically and he's got plans to do so, he has told us about them. joining me now, molly john fast, special correspondent for vanity fair, host of fast politics podcast. -- a columnist for msnbc daily, he's the host of the dino show on sirius xm. good morning to both of you, friends. dean, my dad used to tell me, my family came from south africa, they were really excited about living in the western democracy. when i was too young to understand politics. he said, the one thing about these things, they can be -- the civil service is study. they stay in place, fundamentally the things the government does for you don't change. i believed that for all of these ears. you must have told me this 50 years ago. it's about to change under donald trump. that fundamental expectation, we've become much more like these other types of countries where somebody comes in, they rename the airports, they rename the streets, and all the government officials change. >> absolutely, to pick up what you were saying earlier, ali, about donald trump being a threat to democracy, donald trump is how democracies die. we've seen in other western nations where they used democracy to chip away at democracy. [inaudible] being one of the most vivid examples. when it comes to civil servants, this is the backbone of about 2 million workers, this is the backbone of our federal agencies. work in epa, homeland security, state department alike, you want to incentivize good people who -- apply and work their. they're not gonna lose their job over the partisan wings of a democratic or republican president. donald trump wants to change that. he wants to go from 4000 appointees to 50,000, at least they're saying, where you can fire them. he can replace with people who are loyal to one person, donald trump. ali, you know, since you crossed the rubicon, you can invoke hitler now after donald trump citing him over and over. he became chancellor, one of the first things he did -- he was no longer to germany, a state of hitler. these authoritarians want to be fascists. one, they're not original. to, they're very dangerous to democracy. >> molly, there are not even original, that's part of the interesting thing. every time i have -- everything donald trump does, she points to, it was hitler, mussolini, or you know, she names another couple other people were less familiar with. it's not original. what's wild about this, the degree to which he says it out loud, i still have conversations with people, molly, smart people in my circle who say, he didn't break anything, it's all exaggerated. at least nobody says he'll be more normal when is president, we learned that lesson last time. what do you do? how do have a conversation people who say, this isn't gonna hurt anything? it's the most obscure schedule f, it could wreck things for government. >> oh yeah. i would actually add something worse, this is not just donald trump, right? this is the heritage foundation. this is the bedrock of the republican party. they're all in on this autocratic vision. even, like, when we talk about politicizing medicine, the fda, right? there is, right now, a case about to go in front of the supreme court but method per stone, it says that the fda did not do a good job with its approval 20 years ago. so, they should take it off the market. it's completely insane. the idea here is to politicize the federal government so the fda looks at drugs and says, well, maybe we don't want to approve this because it does something we don't like. i think that's a really good point, the science of this country, our world will completely be turned upside down in ways we can't even fathom if trump gets back into power. i would say, it's not just trump, it's this republican party, they've really embraced this authoritarianism. >> dean, i want to talk about the things that have changed. i'm gonna put aside supreme court rulings, in theory, any republican president probably would've taken the opportunity to fill the supreme court with republican justices and some of the same things may be happening. we're not sure, we can't tell, that when we can't control for. let's talk with the things that did change. donald trump replaced the clean power act under climate laws. he refined the terms of the endangered species act. he lifted oil and natural gas extraction bans, he weakened the coal ash rule, which regulated the disposal of toxic coal waste. he re-wrote and we can do the merck urinary toxic standards. that's just climate. i have a whole list of stuff. >> sure. >> everything, because tunnel trump doesn't threatens a lot of big things and kash patel comes on and says he's gonna jail journalists, to things like that, those big things get a lot of air. there's all sorts of little things we never worried about before because we thought presidents were generally good people who, you know, worked within polite society. there's a ton of little things donald trump can do, did do, and will continue to deal. >> certainly. donald trump was never concerned with being a president for all americans. i used to say, donald trump is not my person, not because i'm gonna be striking about it, he didn't want to be my president. he wanted to be president of his base. in turn, his donors. the donors want rollbacks on epa regulations so they can make more money. more money, more profits, and turn, they get to republicans, like molly said, it's not just trump. republican -- millions and millions of dollars. legal corruption. so, you have what is legally able to do with a right-wing president like trump, desantis, nikki haley, though all do that. of course, donald trump attempted a coup and engaged in insurrection, as the supreme court of colorado held earlier this week. we have something weight of the norms, that's illegal. but the stuff is legal, trump, desantis, haley, roll back protections for the environment, women, academic freedom, the list goes on. your band book segment will be banned. if it's allowed to go on, it's gonna get longer and longer, let's put it that way. >> i can ask us to stick around. we're gonna take a break. then we will talk more on the other side. molly and dean, stay with me. h me re. visionworks. see the difference. 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they'll give you a 90-day money back guarantee on your first purchase. this brand-new iphone sold for less than $42. and this dj idrone sold for less than $21. i even got this jeep on dealdash. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. there are auctions going on right now, so what are you waiting >> back with molly john fast, host of the fast politics podcast and special correspondents for vanity, dean -- columnist and host of siriusxm's the dna bellow show, given us a new name for when the banned book club gets banned, it'll be the benderville she banned book club. molly, this conversation is borne out of a lunch ahead with a friend of mine who is sort of saying, what donald trump really bring? my producer, lauren, was jotting down some thoughts. a lot of them are intangibles. some of them or actual stuff i was reading to dean. some of it was trashed, right? it caused us to develop mistrust in science and medical professionals, expertise generally. by the way, he doubled down on that by putting people in his administration who are not experts on anything, starting with jared kushner who is, you know, the secretary of everything with no particular experience. he caused us to have jack smith, he writes this on the last page of his indictment, caused us to mistrust our voting system, mistrust our votes are important and are going to be counted. ultimately, he cost us our trust and our faith in democracy, for some of us. for some of us, it didn't, hard in my faith and democracy. for some people, it cost them to believe it's not as secure as it is. those intangibles are really big. >> yeah, i think that's right. i would also say that republicans had opportunities, many opportunities to say, this is not right, this is not who we are. people in republican leadership, like mitch mcconnell, like paul ryan, do you remember paul ryan? all of these people had opportunities to say, this is not who we are, this is not okay. do you know what? they were scared to go against donald trump, they didn't want the death threats, they didn't want the rest of us get when you go against donald trump. they kicked the can. that's why, ultimately, the republican senators, you could have voted, after january six, they could've convicted him, they could've said, this person engaged in insurrection, which they all did say, you know, maybe quietly to each other, but they all knew, it right? they know it's white right and what's wrong. they said, he'll just go away, play golf. by doing that, they made this democracy's problem, right? that's why we're here. and, mean the reality is the man continues to not be held accountable for things needed. you have it on tape, right? and colorado, you had it on tape in georgia. you know, these votes that we need, wink wink, nod nod. i think that's totally true. i think that what you said about, you know, we have such faith that our presidents, even if they were different parties, were willing to do the right thing. when trump went back to power, we saw that wasn't true. >> dean, we just heard there is another tape out of michigan that sounds very much like that georgia tape or donald trump and romney were talking to officials from the wayne county, elections board, telling them those certify the thing. by the way, we'll get you lawyers, donald trump chimes, and i haven't heard the tape, but a reporter who did hear from the detroit news, to he said donald trump chimes and says, don't worry, we'll take care of that for you. straight-up, mob style stuff. we have more evidence of it. >> collect all the tapes for the holidays. there must be so many donald trump tapes out there. christmas, hanukkah, whatever you want, kwanzaa. one penny, pay one penny, get ten trump tapes. look, right in our face, how is that held accountable? where was the three anniversary of january 6th? this guy walks free and is allowed on the ballot? one last quick thing, we are talking about with molly, republicans, for years, i want to just lose trust in the system from gerrymandering to voter suppression laws -- so you feel like it's inevitable. you can't beat them so you check out the system. when we check in, we. when we check, out they wind. we have to check out bacon 2024. >> absolutely right about that. thanks to both of you -- social corresponded for vanity fair and host a fast politics podcast -- and host of siriusxm's the dean show. still ahead, colorado supreme court has ruled that trump's constitutionally ineligible to appear on the states primary ballot. i am gonna speak with the colorado secretary of state, janet griswold, right after this. another hour of velshi begins right now. >> good morning. it's sunday, december 24th. i'm ali velshi. won't be much time to rest and relax this holiday season for donald trump a