the government's proposed order specifies that such statements would include, a, statements regarding the identity, testimony, or credibility of prospect of witnesses. we, statements about any party, witness, attorney, court personnel or potential jurors that are disparaging and inflammatory or intimidating, and quote. it's no secret that long before donald trump entered politics and long before the invention of, twitter he has abused various forms of media to attack celebrities. politicians, others with whom he disagrees or thinks of scoring ten. the practice persisted through his presidency. he use social media and other platforms to ridicule members of his own cabinet among many others. the behavior has continued over the past few months. the criminal indictments piled up across four different jurisdictions around the country. he's made numerous disparaging comments about the prosecutors who brought the cases against him. the judges who are randomly assigned to those cases as well as people who anticipated could be potential witnesses. about a month ago, just a few days after he was criminally indicted for a fourth, time trump posted a vague but alarming threat in all caps on his social media platform truth social. it read, quote, if you go after me, i am coming after you. the post was previously cited in an earlier motion filed by the special counsel's office raising their concerns with the judge that the former president might use evidence released to his legal team to improperly target witnesses. his latest motion, smith calls attention to trump's past comments. writing the former president has an established practice of issuing inflammatory statements targeted at individual institutions that presents an obstacle or challenge to him, and quote. meanwhile, down in georgia, we learned this week there will be at least two trials in the criminal racketeering case against donald trump and his 18 codefendants. on thursday, judge scott mcafee granted the defendant's motion to sever their case from kenneth chesebro and sidney powell. the trump attorneys who were involved in the scheme to use fake electors to help overturn the results of the 2020 election. they have previously filed for a speedy trial. it could begin before the end of this year. judge mcafee has directed the jury clerk to begin sending out subpoenas to 900 prospective jurors in fulton county. upon to be given jury selection on october 23rd for cheeseborough and powell's trial. joining me now, fred, smith a professor of law at emory university in atlanta. good to see you and good morning. thank you for being with us. let's talk about. this the motion, until this week, we had been talking about it in terms of people who think that they either want their trials moved to federal court or they want their trials done separately for whatever legal reason. in this particular, case the judge actually referred to the logistics of it. there is no courtroom big enough in their courthouse for 19 defendants. i'm curious about that. what you make of it. >> sure. in this particular instance you, have defendants who sought a speedy trial. it is what trump did, has you know. to the october 23rd it. they also noted -- there's no courtroom large enough to hold all of them and their attorneys. as a result, he thought that about 19, it's hard to see how he might not feel the same way about trying 17. one thing the judge also noted, however, there are other judges in the fulton county courthouse who stand ready to try some of these defendants. it raises the possibility that you can have multiple trials going on simultaneously based on this indictment. >> which is by the way happened in the january six. case they were not charged in most cases. there were instances with the proud boys and the oath keepers where it was one set of charges. generally speaking, the hundreds of people charged in january six were tried and charged and tried separately. what does this mean to fani willis? clearly, she seems to have intended for this to be one trial with 19 witnesses. each time someone has tried to either have a case removed a federal court or to be cleaved up from the others, she has resisted that. with specific requests that this go forward as one drab. how does it affect her ability to try these cases that they are now starting to be cleared off. >> i think her office has to be thinking about where they're going to try the particular defendants in which one they are going to request going forward. in this particular indictments, although there's an overarching scheme to overturn the election, when you look closely there are certain districts acts. there is false testimony. there is instances of intimidating election workers. there is the coffee county election tampering example there is the fake elector scheme. you can imagine a set of circumstances in which you break the instances out and try individuals based on those circumstances. >> as you are saying this, i got my copy of the indictment here and there are definitely places where you can see these things being discreet chunks. however, under georgia law, under the r.i.c.o. and conspiracy charges there have been charged there's things in here that don't stand independently as criminal acts if you weren't thinking about the underlying conspiracy. and other, words a lot of this case has to be brought together in order to make the conspiracy. the r.i.c.o. part, make it work. >> that's definitely going to be a challenge. if you look at the first part of the indictment, it's by far the largest count. there's a number of avert acts that are alleged. this is going to be the first test. this october 23rd trial. already these two defendants alone, one is charged with fake elector scheme. the other is charged with the tampering of voter machines on coffee county. the prosecutors will connect this to these broader scheme. they need to figure out how much evidence they are going to bring in outside of the discreet acts in order to make the case. >> i will give my viewers an example. act one of counted one is about donald trump making a speech on november 4th. the last line of that count, the last line of the ax is that this speech was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. she's making the point that you may read this thing and say i don't understand how the speech by donald trump has anything to do with sydney powell or whatever the case is. and that's the type of connection which is why it is important to read these indictments. good to see you again as always. thank you for joining us. >> >> fred smith, a professor of law at emory university atlanta. with me now is jill wine-banks. she brings -- the assistant watergate special prosecutor and for the united states army. she's an msnbc contributor. she's a co-host of the important sisters in law podcast. if you don't subscribe to that you should be subscribed and listening to two years of back podcasts. she is the author of the great book, the watergate girl. my fight for truth and justice against a criminal president. she is someone who has helped me through the last several years of legal shenanigans. it is so rare that you and i actually get time together. i am so happy to have you here. >> i am delighted to be here. >> you are picked today's lady justice. you had the scales of justice. >> it's the right thing for what we are talking about. >> i want to go from georgia back to what we jackson offense. ed he has asked for a narrow gag order. i think both georgia and in china chutkan's case, the judge magistrate who heard the jack smith case in the beginning, they both warned donald trump about things that he can say and public. he didn't seem to be heeding any of it. >> he didn't. absolutely didn't. i think the request is probably too narrow. i think it has to include barring him or his lawyers from putting forth defenses that will never be admitted in court. he will for example, he has already said i guarantee you i will testify that i did not try to suppress any of the video. i did not do that. that is not only -- it's putting forward public opinion. a defense that he's not going to be able to raise because he's not going to testify. i think that has to be blocked by the order that was in place. and then someone has to enforce the order. as long as it's not, enforced he's going to keep on doing what he does. >> and a normal case, one would understand how that would all go down. and other, words you would understand how that order would come down and how it would be enforced. there is nothing normal about this case. anything anyone does get them accused of being overzealous or politicized. does a judge look at a request by jack smith in this case differently than they might have another cases that you've been involved in? >> yes, i think they dipped that he won't abide by it. his lawyers may abide by it. that would be helpful. you don't want to have an unenforceable order. it weakens the court system. why put in place something when you know you're not going to jail him? i think eventually they might have. to what other options are there? there's financial penalties that have not worked. he read a famed e. jean carroll late after a 5 million dollar judge. >> he's getting called back to court for that. he might get another judgment as a result. the concept of doing what accord would do which could be arrest for breaching an order, is that practical things that would happen donald trump? how does that go down? >> legally, it's possible. politically, would it create chaos, would it create a really dangerous situation? maybe. on the other, hand i think there's a lot of people in the country who are, saying we need to have the justice system work. we need to have the judicial system work. we need to have accountability of all criminals. so, i don't know how you can avoid taking further steps. you might start with a huge financial penalty. you might start with limitations on what you can prove in the courtroom. before you would start putting someone in jail and you have to be careful because he's running for president and he has to be able to say whatever he wants about policies. we might not be able to say he can't say i'm innocent. that is harmless. that is what you do when you plead the that you're not guilty. >> it's an intimidation issue. what jack smith seems to be referring to is potential witnesses. they got discoveries. millions of pages. so, the trump team knows what's coming generally speaking. they know everybody generally who's going to be called to testify. i think that's what jack smith is getting. at you can't do things to intimidate the prosecutors and jurors or anyone else involved in the case. >> that's the main target. he also orders and motions asked for a pre-approval by the judge of any polling of the jury and focus groups that they have. jury selection has become more of a science. it's not uncommon to try to have focus groups not trials that would make sense. in this case, you might pollute the total jury pool if you do it in a way that starts putting out defenses that will never be allowed in court. she wants to make sure that there is a -- making sure that there is pre-approval of any questions that go out to a potential juror. >> tanya chutkan has asked to recuse herself in this case. she has asked for input from both sides on this one. they are using her own words by saying she is commented in the sentencing of january six who have complained that they did this at the behest of donald trump. donald trump is not in the room. he is not standing trial. tell me about this. >> i think the ultimate thing will not prevail. she will not recuse and the appellate court will say that was a fatal error. they will have to reduce the judgment because she didn't. i think the two quotes that they have used have been taken out of context. when you read beyond the few lines that they quote, it says you defendants have said it's not her opinion. she has gone on to say this is not me to judge that. that is not what is before. me i am judging you and your conduct. i think she's been very careful and i don't think that there's anything that will lead to reversible error if she does not hurt recuse herself. >> jill wine-banks, you are a national treasure who has been upholding democracy in this country for decades. i will never get over the thrill of having you with me in the studio. thank you for everything you do for us. thank you for all the early mornings you get. up here in a different times and most the time to join in the morning. thank you. jill wine-banks is the former assistant watergate special prosecutor at msnbc contributor and the co-host of the sisters and lafayette podcast. soon you'll be able to have your own print copy of the trump indictments. the 91 truck criminal counts against the former president of the united states includes the complete and edited and on and 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>> for the first time since roe was overturned, to planned parenthood clinics and wisconsin will resume offering abortions on monday after a judge ruled that a state law passed in 1849 that does not criminalize abortions. this is an important development. not only for the people of wisconsin, but for the entire region of the country where republican lawmakers are actively continuing to choke off access to abortion care. as experts predicted and warned, abortion bans neither dissuade women from needing nor from seeking abortions. instead, the band just creates new barriers and hardships forcing people to travel across state lines. sometimes hundreds of miles from home. in order to get the procedure done. and allen, oie abortion remains legal, planned parenthood's clinics have seen a seven fold increase in patients coming from wisconsin since the supreme court issued the dobbs decision. it's not just wisconsin residents who've been traveling to illinois. for millions of women across the south and midwest, illinois the closest place to receive safe and legal abortions after six weeks. clinics across the state are seeing a huge increase of total patients. according to data collected by the guttmacher institute, clinics and allen i perform 69% more abortions during the first six months of the year compared to the same time period in 2020. similar spikes are happening in many states where abortion remains legal. in colorado, clinics are twice as many patients in the first half of this year than they did in the first half of 2020. in new mexico exporters texas, the largest state in the country where abortion is banned, the number of patients more than tripled from 2020 to 2023. traveling it has become part of the new normal in post roe america. it has become under attack of south someplace's take additional draconian steps to restrict the rights of those living under abortion bans to travel to a state where abortion remains legal. two counties in texas recently passed ordinances that -- abortion trafficking and quote. the ordinance has outlawed through these counties to knowingly transport individuals and elective abortion regardless of where the elective abortion will occur, and quote. in the 15 months since roe was overturned, the only thing that antiabortion lawmakers have managed to achieve is further endangering the lives of women. traveling to another state for an abortion is often inconvenient, costly, and risky. for some, it's not a choice. it is a medical necessity. some states where abortion is banned, the law is unclear if or when medical professionals can step in to terminate a pregnancy in order to save the pregnant person's life. women who experienced -- complications are often left with few options. either crossed eight lines to receive medically necessary and lifesaving abortion, or wait until they are at the brink of death before they can be treated in their home state. and that is the basis of three new legal actions filed by the center for reproductive rights in idaho, oklahoma, and tennessee on behalf of women whose lives were endangered by the anti abortion law is. when we come back, i'll be joined by jennifer atkins, the lead plaintiff, and one of the growing number of women who has gone through the dangerous ordeal. a consequence of the regression of reproductive rights in america. america. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and that means 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condition, by the, way that would also endanger her own life. jennifer, thank you for being with me this morning. >> thank you for having me. >> jennifer, this -- you've gone through enough. this is not ideal to be a plaintiff in the case. it is public. people will know your name. people have got -- in the country. how has it been for you to not only be the lead plaintiff, to be out in public and discussing your experience. >> it has been hard. we knew immediately when we are getting our diagnosis that we needed to be advocates. we knew we needed to use our voice and our experience to spread awareness about this situation. we knew it would be challenging. we knew it would be putting our most painful and intimate experience of our life and this horrible tragedy that happened to her family out for everybody to scrutinize and talk about. it's very important to share the stories with everyone. that is how we de-stigmatize these issues. and that's how we make progress and change. >> let's tell the story a little bit. you want in for a routine ultrasound when you are pregnant. you found out your fetus has what's known as turner syndrome. tell us about what that is and what happened next at the doctor's office that day. >> the s, we went in for our 12-week ultrasounds. it was supposed to be routine. it was supposed to be exciting and fun. i immediately knew by looking at the ultrasound that there was more fluid than expected. even though i wasn't a medical professional, i know what fluid looks like in an ultrasound. i knew it was going to be bad news almost immediately. i try to keep that to myself and push through it. maybe i was wrong. i wasn't. a genetic counselor and a maternal fetal specialist told us that there was a cystic hydro math, it was a collection of fluid behind the head and neck of the fetus. adina under the skin known as hydroxide palace. both of those conditions alone would likely cause a miscarriage. they said to do to the nasal bone being present in our fetus, it was likely this was turner syndrome. this is something that happens. 1% of all pregnancies. it is a random event that happens at conception when one of the extra zones is deleted. this was not how we expected to find out that we were going -- to expect a little girl. this is not how we expected to find out the little girl would die. she was not expected to make it much longer. they were still surprised. based on the severity of what they're seeing on the ultrasound, they couldn't believe i was actually still pregnant. she then told me that if she continued -- attempt to carry it to term that i would be at risk for a syndrome that would cause me to experience the same symptoms of my baby and have swelling. the only way to treat it it is to deliver the fetus are baby regardless of the viability. it was going to be a death sentence. >> and a risk for you. >> when you find the, south you are 12 weeks pregnant. idaho -- this is important for people to remember. particularly a lot of men. idaho bans abortion after six weeks of pregnancy as does florida and places like that. some women don't know they're pregnant at six weeks. they don't know anything about the complications that could occur as a result. so, now you are 12 weeks pregnant in a state that bans abortions at six weeks talking about what houses then. you understand that you would need to abort this fetus but you can't do that and idaho at this point. >> right, i knew that immediately. i had been following the news. when i knew what the laws meant and what the bans meant. i wanted to make sure that was accurate. we asked the question, are we allowed to do this year, they said no. they said are allowed to get a referral to a clinic at a state. they said no. we are not able to refer you out of state. you can tell they were just as distraught as we were that they could not help us in any way other than to tell us we were free to explore our options elsewhere. we had to go home and not only grieve this terrible news and the impending loss of her child. but then also figure out where we were going to get this procedure done. and then when. the time clock starts ticking. there's lots of places that even if abortion is legal you still can't do it after surmount weeks. 24 weeks we knew the clock was ticking. we also do a his british and care providers could not the -- fort we were already passed 12 weeks. some clinics could only help us up through ten or 11 weeks. it was a race against time to figure out where we are going to do this and how we are going to have money to travel for this how we will provide childcare for our son. it was extremely challenging. >> the places that do still offer abortions in many cases are up to capacity. they can't just walk in and schedule for the next day. on top of, that i know this doesn't relate specifically to your case, it's part of this collection of cases that have gone around. in some, cases they will experiment, and looting to texas counties, with what antiabortion groups are calling abortion trafficking laws. anybody involved in moving through a county or helping someone through move a county the purpose of going somewhere else to get an abortion whether or not that final destination is legal can be held accountable for things. the things -- i am asking you to relate. they're going through what you're going through. you are grieving the loss of your fetus who you are hoping to grow into a baby. you are now dealing with your own health scares. here financier to get an abortion. you might be arrested in your own state for trying to get the abortion. >> right, even though we won't dealing with those necessarily, we were terrified. when we crossed the state, line we felt a sense of relief and anxiety. it is an awful thing to have to go through when you are also dealing with a personal tragedy in your family. and feeling like he may get into trouble or you are being watched or followed. it is awful. >> jennifer atkins, they will read your name many name as we study the dark time in american history. we hope people will look at it and, say i can't believe that was happening. it doesn't happen anymore. for now what bravery even your family are displaying by doing this. thank you for being with us to stereo story this morning. jennifer atkins, the lead plaintiff in the center for reproductive rights lawsuit against the state of idaho. we will be right back. l be right back. ey fell in love with the irresistible scent. ♪ ♪ huh, huh, so did their dog roger. ♪ ♪ gain scent beads keep even the stinkiest stuff smelling fresh. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv teeth sensitivity is so common. it immediately feels like somebody's poking directly on the nerve. i recommend sensodyne. sensodyne toothpaste 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gives far more power to small rural states than large urbanized ones. republican senators have not represented a majority of the population since 1999. for about half of the past two decades from 2003 to 2007 and again from 2015 to 2020, when republicans have had a majority in the senate. for ten years, republican senators were deciding whet bills to pass in which the block on behalf of a minority of americans. the senate itself was left in by the filibuster, it requires a 60 vote supermajority, frequently allowing the minority to control decision-making. and then there is the supreme court. our justices have been appointed by some presidents who did not win the majority vote. the court has become increasingly divergent from majority popular opinion. the root of our democratic problem, levitskiy and see blatt argues is in our constitution. while our country has changed drastically over the past 200 years, new borders and new economy and population that's changed a medically and continues to do so our constitution has changed very little. especially when compared to other established democracies. norway, for, instance has amended its constitution at least 316 times in the last 200 years to protect individual rights. to strengthen the democracy. according to the united states senate, there have been nearly 12,000 attempts to amend the united states constitution. the efforts have been successful 27 times. the majority of those amendments passed more than 150 years ago. take, for instance, efforts to abolish the electoral college. the effort to reform the electoral college is nearly 225 years old. some astoria's estimate there have been roughly 700 attempts to reform that particular part of the constitution to move to a true popular vote system. it was nearly accomplished in the 1960s and 70s when led by indiana senator birch by, the amendment passed the house but was repeatedly killed in the senate. most recently, the representative jeremy raskin try to include the electoral college in the january six committee recommendations on how to prevent a repeat of the insurrection. it was cut from the list. all attempts have been unsuccessful. our sluggishness when it comes to institutional changes not isolated to the electoral college. the united states for a long time was seen as a model for democratic government. the bones of our democratic system can still be seen in many of the leading democracies of the world today. every other democracy has continued to update itself. they have modernized and we have not. our democracy in the united states is vaccinating. ♪♪ we're not writers, but we help you shape your financial story. ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪ oh... stuffed up 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deserted really they garner a great deal of respect. our founders never envisioned the constitution to be this rigid. as harvard professor stephen liske and daniel sublot point out in their new book tyranny of the minority, some of the founders were very explicit in there -- would continue to adapt as it grew. in 1787, just after the philadelphia convention, george washington wrote that the best supporters do not contend that it is free from imperfections but found them unavoidable, and quote. levitskiy ends a blast right, we must double down and dismantling spheres of undue minority protection and empowering majorities at all levels. it means ending constitutional protectionism and unleashing competition. and it means bringing the balance of political power more closely and power with voter preferences. it means forcing our politicians to be more responsive and accountable to americans, and quote steve olimpiyskiy and daniels is blatt. coauthors of tyranny of the minority join me now. thank you for joining us. let's start with you here's something i worry about. in modern constitutions around the world and countries that have peeled off from the former soviet union or countries that are nearly independent, they actually spent a lot of time putting in protections for minorities in those constitutions to make sure the majority doesn't obliterate or genocide to minorities. your argument is that we have done that too much in the american constitution. tell me how that relates and how the two concepts relate. >> i think we need to distinguish between individual rights and basic minority rights. the right to free speech and the right to religious to believe. the right to association and assembly and protest. those kinds of individual or minority rights are essential in any democracy. the united states has it took almost two centuries to really extend the rights to all americans. our constitutional system and our bill of rights and are powerful independent judiciary does a pretty good job of defending and protecting those individual rights and that includes the rights of religious minorities. what we also do, which is very different is we protect partisan minorities as you mentioned earlier, we are the only pro democracy in the world where the loser can become president, we are one of the few democracies in the world where we are in the u.s. senate and the party that loses the popular vote winds a majority. we are the only democracy in the world where justices have lifetime -- they can be there for 30 or 40 years and what that allows is for parties that lose elections to routinely thwart and govern over majorities. and that's not the same thing as minority rights. >> let me ask you and let's go further. there are a lot of things in here that are really important that we want to cover. that is the important distinction. we are protecting somehow in our system parties that lose. candidates, are going back to you parties that lose and candidates that lose and get fewer votes than the other candidate. that's the part you think is broken. >> absolutely as you mentioned, when you designed it, it is progressive. back in the late 18 century, the most democratic constitution in the world. it took, the idea that majorities would be empowered to govern that majorities would always get elected and elected majorities would have that that was not a thing in the 18th century but over the course of the last couple centuries, including democracies that borrowed and model themselves on the united states gradually did the work of becoming more democratic and they abolished unelected senates and they establish term limits. all other democracies in the world abolish their own electoral college and they were the last one in 1994. we've done that to and many parts of our history we worked to make our political system more democratic in electing the senate in the early part of the 20th century rather than having an appointed senate we were doing the same thing for much of our history. in the last 50 years we have stopped doing that to make our system better and more democratic. >> i think we can hear you. we might not be able to see you. we can still see. you make a number of recommendations as to how to deal with this thing. they come on the three easy concept that my viewers can understand. uphold the right to vote, something that we have failed frequently in america. number to ensure that election outcomes reflect majority preferences. number three empower governing majorities. in regular, speak what do they involved. >> in our last, chapter we had 15 proposals. had 15 proposals we had wide-ranging proposals. reducing the power of the filibuster, eliminating the filibuster. we also proposed to expand the house of representatives we think providing term limits and prayer and retirement age is for -- it's not a random let wish list the goal is to allow majorities to speak and to do things that other mid-democracies have done and these proposals may sound radical to some. as steve noted. what's radical, to not include the, we can do it again. >> let me give you an example. your own example about the suffrage movement and i'm writing from the book to get the world out of the constitution cost the women of the country 52 years of pause this campaigns during that time, they were forced to conduct a 56 campaigns of referenda to male voters and 40 -- two summits amendments and institute state constitutional conventions for women suffrage and to state constitutions. 277 campaigns to persuade state party conventions to include women suffrage i'm not done and 30 campaigns towards presidential party conventions to adopt planes in party platforms 19 campaigns with nine teen successive congresses to get women to vote in america. that's what it took. you could tell a very similar tale about civil rights. it's arguably a longer one if you go back to the early abolition movement. this is a hard truth. i think all of us who want to preserve and strengthen u.s. democracy have to realize that defending democracy is hard work. and sometimes, it is a long slog, making a political system more inclusive is a long struggle and as we certainly saw with the abolition and civil rights movement it generates a lot of very violent reactions it's not a matter of one election. this is a generational struggle for those of us who want to build a more democratic united states. >> there's a great quote in the book in which you write loving america with a broken heart means recognizing our own country's failure to live up to the ideals. it's failure for too long to provide liberty and justice for all. it means committing ourselves to achieving ideals by building a multi racial democracy that all americans can debris and raise. loving it with a broken heart. there is a failure here and acknowledge it. love your country and fix it. >> absolutely. one of the advantages we have over the founders, there was a wonderful line that they wrote right after the convention. i feel like we are in the wilderness with no footsteps guiding us. they were in the wilderness we have the benefit of living in the year we can look at other countries and look at our own history and push forward and understand the limits of our democracy and think about ways to improve it. in that, sense i hope we are sending hopeful messages in our book at this kind of reform is not only necessary but possible. >> that's the important. part anytime anyone criticizes anything about, america you hit america, you are not patriots all this garbage. you guys are actually saying you love your country which is why you want to make it better and important book. thank you for spending time with us this morning. stephen levitskiy and daniel sublot are both professors of government at harvard university. they are coauthors of tyranny of the minority, we will be right back. right back of going, doing, and living. glucerna protein smart with 30 grams of protein 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